http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/01/16/ces.luxury.turntable/index.html

For the analog folks, are cartridge swaps (or the ability to have this many) this important??

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/TECH/01/16/ces.luxury.turntable/art.turntable.jpg

Bland

In the world of exotic turntables.. that's a middle-of-the-road machine....

http://www.bornrich.org/entry/top-10-most-expensive-turntables/

Goldmund makes sure of topping it off with the most expensive TT, I have so far read about: $300,000!!!...:eek:

Goldmund makes sure of topping it off with the most expensive TT, I have so far read about: $300,000!!!...:eek:

If you take off the surrounding case, the innards are a Rega P1... :p

If you take off the surrounding case, the innards are a Rega P1... :p

Truthfully ..no.. This is basically the same machine Goldmund used to sell in the 80's for about 15K then $25,000.. Now 300,000.. !! I will fish for some values in TTs... but know that this will be my last TT... Now my aim is to enjoy the best digital has to offer and frankly from many account the HRx seems to surpass subjectively everything analog had to offer...

Why is the Rockport Sirius on this list? Is it not available anymore? This might just expose how ignorant I am about the turntable market but so be it.

Why is the Rockport Sirius on this list? Is it not available anymore? This might just expose how ignorant I am about the turntable market but so be it.


The new Sirius V is on Andy Payor's drawing board with projected MSRP of $150K-$165K

http://www.hifisentralen.no/forum/index.php?topic=30327.0

The new Sirius V is on Andy Payors drawing board with projected MSRP of $150K-$165K

http://www.hifisentralen.no/forum/index.php?topic=30327.0

He better hurry up and double that price! Otherwise people will buy the Goldmund instead... :p

he better hurry up and double that price! Otherwise people will buy the goldmund instead... :p

:d

You have to wonder how many people are using those turntables... to convert the records to MP3 files! :)

Anyone of these have USB or firewire? :)

Anyone of these have USB or firewire? :)

I think they both have built in Bluetooth and WiFi... ;)

The new Rockport Sirius is a lot more purty than the Goldmund. That should be worth 100K all by itself. I wonder if I will find a Sirius III at Goodwill anytime soon.

I find it interesting that so many decks are so expensive. I don't believe it take so much to get the information from the groove correctly. Don't forget that most vinyls have just maybe 40-50 dB in s/n.

I find it interesting that so many decks are so expensive. I don't believe it take so much to get the information from the groove correctly. Don't forget that most vinyls have just maybe 40-50 dB in s/n.

Take some time and research the Sirius Turntable. You might learn something ( although unlikely). Have a read of the Stereophile review of the Sirius lll from a few years ago. You might be enlightened:rolleyes:

http://www.stereophile.com/analogsourcereviews/258/index.html

Micheal Fremer words are not really worth anything to me. The question is, what problem do vinyl have and how can I build a player that can add as little as possible to the signal.
One problem that I find really strange is the lack of "centerfixation". Most vinyl are NOT 100% centered and that will REALLY color the sound. Nakamichi Dragon-CT had a way to fix this but I don't think any player on the market today can fix it. A real problem that nobody cares about :(

Most vinyl are NOT 100% centered and that will REALLY color the sound

Just more of the same from you

Just more of the same from you


Don't you hear that? Maybe your system is not that revealing so it show the pitch problems you will get then. :confused:

Don't you hear that? Maybe your system is not that revealing so it show the pitch problems you will get then. :confused:

Hmmm, an "off color" joke:p

Good for you that you don't hear those problems. I have a revealing system that show this problem :(

Good for you that you don't hear those problems. I have a revealing system that show this problem :(

I wish I were as fortunate as you

LP centering of Vinyl is not as trivial as it seems.. nowadays a good portion of the available LP are made for the enthusiasts market and great care is taken to center these... It was NOT always the case and even today, One will find off-centered LP... The Nakamichi Dragon was the only TT I know to address this serious problem. Its effect are clearly audible on even the most basic table ( Rega P3 for example) ...
if the system is capable of serious bass output it does translate in a seawave kind of low level bass in the worst cases.. YOu will see your woofer moving like crazy with not much sound coming out of it... It does impede the retrieval of low level details.

Yes, I really hope some company will do any real attempt to fix this. I would say that many audiophile releases today have VERY big problem with off center vinyls. Just read about all complaints on Steve Hoffman forum. I have a lot of new vinyl that have clearly pitch problem because of this (classic records, some in the Doors box, etc). :(

The Rockport Sirius is definitely "the" turntable in terms of state-of-the-art playback technology. Sony mastering down in New York bought one for transcribing their priceless masters and stampers (along with a collection of custom made styli that you wouldn't believe). Mastering went bust not to long ago, wonder whatever happened to that turntable?

The head engineer of Kuzma stated somewhere that no damping tray was necessary specifically for off center vinyl because the frequencies created were so low, in the inaudible sub 5 HZ range. I imagine that that frequency could drain subwoofer amplifier energy if it got through the electronic chain, but wouldn't be audible per se unless it created higher order harmonics, which Kuzma doesn't think is a problem. I can't say I have ever heard anything that stems specifically from off center vinyl, although the problem is common. Maybe it is just a problem that doesn't need a solution.
I used to think that creating turntables would be a no brainer easy engineering problem. It was me that had the "no brain". When you really think of the engineering task, it is quite challenging, even in theory. Better (meaning better, more expensive machining and applications) turntables can be heard quite easily. I have no idea where the point of diminishing returns is, but the more I have spent, the noticeably better the sound has gotten. Cheap **** wishful thinking just doesn't cut it.

NIN74

Now you believe that manufacturing a turntable that will eliminate all resonances, transfer no extraneous noise to the cartridge and hence your ears, has perfect cartridge alignment, etc, etc should be a trivial matter? Give me a break. Reproduction of a record is all about mechanical engineering as there are soooooo many places where the opportunity exists to make it better.

Since vinyl has been around a REALLY long time and we continue to make better (e.g. more accurate reproducers of what exactly is on the record) sounding turntable, apparently all of the engineers who have been in this business for so long don't know as much as you do!!

I'll give you credit for one thing. You are consistent.

NIN74

Now you believe that manufacturing a turntable that will eliminate all resonances, transfer no extraneous noise to the cartridge and hence your ears, has perfect cartridge alignment, etc, etc should be a trivial matter? Give me a break. Reproduction of a record is all about mechanical engineering as there are soooooo many places where the opportunity exists to make it better.

Since vinyl has been around a REALLY long time and we continue to make better (e.g. more accurate reproducers of what exactly is on the record) sounding turntable, apparently all of the engineers who have been in this business for so long don't know as much as you do!!

I'll give you credit for one thing. You are consistent.

Perhaps your system isn't as revealing as NIN's or is just too colored;)

cf

It is not their audibility that is the problem, it is how their energy level can be higher than that of the useful signal .. Back in the days, I owned a Mapleknoll Ariadne ( to this day a little engineering marvel, however Rube-Goldbergesque it looked) which had such a through.

I hate to rain on people parade and will bow out of this thread very soon... It needs to be said from my point of view and it's to me a concern that from what I have heard from many quarters some of them the most purists audiophiles, that the HRx is the best source they have heard bar none Digital or Analog, Drop the "best" music server, your favorite HRx-capable DAC and you remain at a fraction of these machines from a time gone.. On paper there is no comparison between the immensely flawed Vinyl reproduction chain and what HRx and the best Digital can do ( Redbook is not the best Digital can do by the way). Yet there continue to be these extravagantly priced machines. I love music and practice its reproduction with a passion: I am an Audiophile... I wrote to a friend recently that I am saddened by the fact that our hobby is slowly devolving into something akin to collecting Watches... It is about how complicated or pretty or finely crafted they are not how well they keep the time. For that none of these fancy watches with the exception of a few Breitling "Professional" models can keep the time as well as $20 Casios.. Haven't we been going there?
disclaimer I, also love these finely crafted watches but am conscious they are jewelry not time keeping machines...

You know, I think threads would go a lot smoother and have greater S/N ratio if people simply accepted that everyone has different opinions/POVs and always will. I don't always (often?) agree with NIN or Doug, but they don't say anything that makes me feel like arguing with them or challenging them either, let alone lesser forms of communication, probably because I know they are sincere in what they believe.

You know, I think threads would go a lot smoother and have greater S/N ratio if people simply accepted that everyone has different opinions/POVs and always will. I don't always (often?) agree with NIN or Doug, but they don't say anything that makes me feel like arguing with them or challenging them either, let alone lesser forms of communication, probably because I know they are sincere in what they believe.


Hmm, my mother used to say, "it takes one to know one"....but you get my drift:rolleyes:

NIN74

Now you believe that manufacturing a turntable that will eliminate all resonances, transfer no extraneous noise to the cartridge and hence your ears, has perfect cartridge alignment, etc, etc should be a trivial matter? Give me a break. Reproduction of a record is all about mechanical engineering as there are soooooo many places where the opportunity exists to make it better.


But, if someone is extremely sensitive to pitch and they like piano music, it will be difficult for them to justify a mega-buck turntable.

But, it will be difficult for them to justify a mega-buck turntable.
So if someone is extremely sensitive to pitch and they like piano music, they should just stick with a cheap turntable?

I think he meant cheap digital ;)

fab

CD has better pitch stability than TTs including the best ones... Pitch variations and intermodulation distortion due to off-centered LP is quite audible. If someone is into piano music and devoted to it, a good digital source on the issue of pitch stability is the best option.. I am not saying that a CD would be superior in every way to the best TT.. simply that in this regard, one that is far from trivial regardless of what the Kuzma Engineer would say about it, a Digital-based Source is better.
I for the most part don't find myself in agreement with Doug or NIN but on the matter of off-centered discs problems, they (he/she/they?) has/have a valid point, one that is not so far addressed by the better TT on the market, including the most expensive ones...

You would think in this day and age, a record could be clamped around the edges, therefore the center hole would be a non issue. A servo controlled motor would take care of speed, and a laser would read the grooves. You'd avoid record/needle wear, there'd be no contact of the record at all, and all of that should come in well under $300K.

Interestingly, I don't think it would be that difficult to do. Certainly not for tens of $thousands. Just make a sub platter that spins and build a smaller platter on that with some sort of servo controlled centering mechanism and voila. Maybe I need to get into the TT business :)

[Damn, Palme beat me to it......]

As a matter of fact there has been attempts to do so.. The Finial TT (http://www.audioturntable.com/customer/audiophile.pdf) was such an attempt of a laser TT that would not have any mechanical contact with the LP... IT bombed big time... Never heard one but the idea was to me quite compelling...

NIN74

Now you believe that manufacturing a turntable that will eliminate all resonances, transfer no extraneous noise to the cartridge and hence your ears, has perfect cartridge alignment, etc, etc should be a trivial matter? Give me a break. Reproduction of a record is all about mechanical engineering as there are soooooo many places where the opportunity exists to make it better.


Yes, it is but you miss the point. The vinyl. Vinyl don't have s/n levels like CDs, most of the time they have not even half what CD have. So if all the noise they turntable produce is lower that the s/n of vinyl, it will be ok.

And the main problem I had is that we still have not a turntable that fix off center LPs. I have way over 2000 LPs and there are too many that are off center. :(

FrantzM

http://www.elpj.com/main.html

The laser turntable design from Finial is still being made by ELP! These tables are extremely sensitive to dust and do not sound as good as one would expect from the technology. I listened to one locally owned by an enthusisast that loves it however an audiophile friend with me agree that it sounded pretty bad compared to a good analogue turntable set up with a decent cartridge.

The prices for these tables are all over the map even from the manufacturer as they typically quote whatever they wish for that particular day. Several people have purchased these tables for well under $5K however the list price is as high as $15K currently.

When auditioning this table after the record had just been meticulously cleaned the record needs to be scanned by the laser to locate each track before the entire disc may be played. This process does not always go smoothly and may require being repeated a few times which is extremely annoying for something this costly. When the scan does work correctly the ELP does not sound as good as analogue tables which can be had for similar money!

The owner of the ELP which we auditioned advised that one must return the player to the factory after x# hours to be cleaned/aligned etc. which is quite costly to do due to shipping round trip to Japan as well as being very inconvenient! This is clearly a piece for the person that has to have a unique toy that in the end is a poorly executed product.

I hate to use the "P" word, but vinyl has PRAT in its DNA. There are almost no "bad" turntables, just better ones. My archived DAT tapes recorded from my old GE console with a ceramic cartridge, played through a good DAC, still sound remarkably good when I have pulled them out, somehow that magic at least partially comes through. A now defunct thrift store that I used to frequent played an old crap console turntable with plastic tonerm, it filled the place with compelling music, it was hard not to stop and just listen. If he played CD's, it would have been "so what", and I don't mean in the Miles Davis sense.

As a matter of fact there has been attempts to do so.. The Finial TT (http://www.audioturntable.com/customer/audiophile.pdf) was such an attempt of a laser TT that would not have any mechanical contact with the LP... IT bombed big time... Never heard one but the idea was to me quite compelling...

Maybe because it looked like a laserdisc player is why it didn't sell? :) Or what were those discs called prior to LD, the RCA ones with the stylus in it?

I think it's a heck of an idea. For the audiophile to buy it, I'd say the thing would still have to look like a turntable, but with a laser in place of the cartdidge. Heck, even a big linear tracking device to house a laser would look better to the layman than the pix above.

Maybe because it looked like a laserdisc player is why it didn't sell? :) Or what were those discs called prior to LD, the RCA ones with the stylus in it?

CED, I believe. I used to jam to the included Duran Duran video disc as a teenager!

That's the one! I was going to say CES, but that didn't sound right. I remember seeing an 'XXX' CES at a night club one day. It wasn't porn, but was XXX rated rock videos of the same era, that MTV couldn't play. One was Fee Waybill of the Tubes singing a cheezy song called 'Sports Fan' that showed full frontal nudity for a quick sec.

Not sure if it's in this clip, but that's the right song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rbrprqzz0IU