Given price is the same, which would be my best bet for display device? Light is not an issue and I plan on limmited video game usage.

Whichever looks better to you.

Its too hard to tell in the store. Is burn in much of an issue anymore on the KUROS?

If you have them whittled down to those two then just read the threads on both and they'll answer all your questions.

no contest - with Best Buy's $2200 deal on the 5020, it's a no brainer, get one! (and I'm a 650 owner)

Thats kinda what i was thinking. Its a pretty rare sale.

Thats kinda what i was thinking. Its a pretty rare sale.

I would probably have sprung for the 5020 if it was that cheap, but when I got my 46" 650 in October it was $1580, and the 5020 was $2600.

Just got a 5020 myself. Pick it up thursday. Its replacing a 46"XBR4.

Its too hard to tell in the store. Is burn in much of an issue anymore on the KUROS?

Burn in is an issue for all plasmas. I also don't like the dirty whites on plasmas.

Burn in is an issue for all plasmas. I also don't like the dirty whites on plasmas.Burn in is an issue for all SED as well.........
And if you love ultra brightness then get an LCD. Otherwise plasma whites are just fine IMO.

Just finish watching the 2nd half of NFC title game in Best Buy on the Samsung 650(same panel as the 750) and the Pioneer 5020.

The colors just looked better and more natural on on the 5020. As much as I try to adjust the 650 it just did not match the 5020 pop. This could be clearly seen in the Arizona Cardinals red unforms, where on the 5020 they were a nice deep or dark red in contrast with the 650 the red was just to bright and unnatural.

Also motion on the on the 650 was not has bad as everyone makes LCD out to be. But, sitting the 5020 next to the 650 and watching the same feed everything looked smooth and natural, where by the 650 at times would look harsh.

After seeing how good football can look on the 5020 I would get the 5020 no question asked.

Burn in is an issue for all SED as well.........
And if you love ultra brightness then get an LCD. Otherwise plasma whites are just fine IMO.

Until we have SED, we don't really know. I don't want deep blacks and dirty whites nor do I want bright whites and poor blacks. I want both, deep blacks and "true" whites.

Both= SED. However I will keep my eyes on the Panny neo's.

Until we have SED, we don't really know. I don't want deep blacks and dirty whites nor do I want bright whites and poor blacks. I want both, deep blacks and "true" whites.

Both= SED. However I will keep my eyes on the Panny neo's.Oh we know. Any pixel based light source (ie - no backlight) is subject to burn in unless the emitting material does not age.

You can spin it any way you like but SED will have just as much susceptibility to burn in as Plasma or OLED.

Oh we know. Any pixel based light source (ie - no backlight) is subject to burn in unless the emitting material does not age.

You can spin it any way you like but SED will have just as much susceptibility to burn in as Plasma or OLED.

That's speculation and not fact. You don't know until you have a SED and it burns in.

That's speculation and not fact. You don't know until you have a SED and it burns in.It is science!!!! Sorry, but that is a fact.

Just finish watching the 2nd half of NFC title game in Best Buy on the Samsung 650(same panel as the 750) and the Pioneer 5020.

The colors just looked better and more natural on on the 5020. As much as I try to adjust the 650 it just did not match the 5020 pop. This could be clearly seen in the Arizona Cardinals red unforms, where on the 5020 they were a nice deep or dark red in contrast with the 650 the red was just to bright and unnatural.

Also motion on the on the 650 was not has bad as everyone makes LCD out to be. But, sitting the 5020 next to the 650 and watching the same feed everything looked smooth and natural, where by the 650 at times would look harsh.

After seeing how good football can look on the 5020 I would get the 5020 no question asked.

I"m watching the Ravens v. Steelers on my Samsung 40A650 LCD, in a brightly lit room, I'm multi-tasking (going over legal documents, posting on the AVS forum, checking emails etc). My TV is looking great, blacks are nice and the whites are true whies on the Ravens jerseys.

If I was watching on a 5020 I would probably lose all the advantages that a TV like it has to offer in this enviornment.

It is science!!!! Sorry, but that is a fact.

Its not a fact until you prove it. Until you have a SED that exhibits burn-in you are just speculating. Even scientist speculate.

Its not a fact until you prove it. Until you have a SED that exhibits burn-in you are just speculating. Even scientist speculate.I agree, until we can prove that SED lifetime is infinity or at least much longer than Panasonics 100,000 hours then we cannot say SED may burn-in. Of course, we then have to speculate that SED somehow has magical phosphors nothing like that of CRT or PDP :)

BTW, I am going by your definition of burn-in, in which all current PDPs have a problem with according to you??

And if you love ultra brightness then get an LCD. Otherwise plasma whites are just fine IMO.

+1

I am so sick of hearing people talking non-sense about dirty whites.
I see nothing but pure white on my Kuro.
Now, its not as bright as the Sun, but its plenty bright.

A 9G elite in ISF-Day mode can do 51fl while maintaning a calibrated picture.

Why would anyone want to go brighter than that in a normal home environment??

I just don't get it. Some need to get over this showroom torchmode mentality.

But still, if plasma can get brighter, I guess its a good thing. It can only help.
It will certainly help Plasma compete in the showroom to the first time buyer.

I wonder what reason some will use for chosing an LCD over a plasma once Plasmas get super bright??

There really won't be anything left for plasma to do better than LCD.

I agree, until we can prove that SED lifetime is infinity or at least much longer than Panasonics 100,000 hours then we cannot say SED may burn-in. Of course, we then have to speculate that SED somehow has magical phosphors nothing like that of CRT or PDP :)

BTW, I am going by your definition of burn-in, in which all current PDPs have a problem with according to you??

I would never put a 7k set like a Elite 151 under the risk of burn-in. If I had such a set, it would never have a game console hooked up to it. You would never see static images left for a long period of time.

I would never put a 7k set like a Elite 151 under the risk of burn-in. If I had such a set, it would never have a game console hooked up to it. You would never see static images left for a long period of time.I'm really sorry but you'll have to treat your SED or OLED the same. That is of course assuming SED doens't have magic phosphor :)

Or you could educate yourself on the true susceptibility to burn in of current plasma models and in turn not worry so much.

BTW, apart from the obvious scientific logic, I do have a white paper on the subject which backs up everything I'm saying. It also mentions some words on brightness you may not like. Sorry......

+1

I am so sick of hearing people talking non-sense about dirty whites.
I see nothing but pure white on my Kuro.
Now, its not as bright as the Sun, but its plenty bright.

A 9G elite in ISF-Day mode can do 51fl while maintaning a calibrated picture.

Why would anyone want to go brighter than that in a normal home environment??

I just don't get it. Some need to get over this showroom torchmode mentality.

But still, if plasma can get brighter, I guess its a good thing. It can only help.
It will certainly help Plasma compete in the showroom to the first time buyer.

I wonder what reason some will use for chosing an LCD over a plasma once Plasmas get super bright??

There really won't be anything left for plasma to do better than LCD.

I agree 110%! When people make comments like this is b/c they base their assumption on first site. Also each mode is set to Warm and that gives them the idea that the whites aren't as bright. I agree!!! :D

Chris

Samsung A750

"The set's calibrated picture produced an utterly impressive 3725:1 contrast ratio, thanks to its dark black level of 0.03 cd/m2. This result was similar to the black level I measured from the Editors' Choice–winning Pioneer Elite KURO PRO-150FD plasma" (PC Magazine)

Samsung A750

"The set's calibrated picture produced an utterly impressive 3725:1 contrast ratio, thanks to its dark black level of 0.03 cd/m2. This result was similar to the black level I measured from the Editors' Choice–winning Pioneer Elite KURO PRO-150FD plasma" (PC Magazine)

PC Magazine?:eek:

Notice the words "Editor's Choice" used in describing the Pioneer?:D :cool:

PC Magazine?:eek:

Notice the words "Editor's Choice" used in describing the Pioneer?:D :cool:

I don't understand your point. I never said the Kuro wasn't a good display. My problem is with the company Pioneer and PDP technology in general.

Guy had a 6 series lcd at a kids b-day party yesterday. Had impressive black levels but still had the washed out effect off angle. Motion handling was not up to plasma par either. Got home and watched the rest of the game and i can tell you the 6 series may have better black levels straight on compared to my 9uk but it couldnt hold a candle in any other area of pq.

The 6/7 series get great reviews from CNET cause they are calibrated and fairly dark. Most owners run them much brighter than CNET, introducing all kinds of issues like flashlighting, uneven backlight, poor contrast etc. I think even the viewing angle is worse at high brightness. Then they turn on AMP to medium or high.

The result is the TV looks like arse.

Again, I was watching my LN40A650 in a brightly lit room. Watching the AFC championship games, posting on the AVS forum and working on some legal documents. I was multi-tasking. The picture was looked good. If it was a plasma in the same enviornment, it wouldn't have looked good because plasmas don't look good in brightly lit rooms.

If it was a plasma in the same enviornment, it wouldn't have looked good because plasmas don't look good in brightly lit rooms.

This might be the most over stated opinion ever posted on a board full of over stated opinions. My plasma looks great in a brightly lit room, and it replaced an LCD. I have two windows and two glass doors facing south (the most light possible). My plasma looks great (better than my LCD) unless sunlight shines directly on it....then my LCD had a minor advantage. By the way, even the LCD could not tolerate direct sunlight.

This might be the most over stated opinion ever posted on a board full of over stated opinions. My plasma looks great in a brightly lit room, and it replaced an LCD. I have two windows and two glass doors facing south (the most light possible). My plasma looks great (better than my LCD) unless sunlight shines directly on it....then my LCD had a minor advantage. By the way, even the LCD could not tolerate direct sunlight.

OK, let me this another way. The advantages that plasma has over LCD are less apparent in a brightly lit room.

Samsung A750

"The set's calibrated picture produced an utterly impressive 3725:1 contrast ratio, thanks to its dark black level of 0.03 cd/m2. This result was similar to the black level I measured from the Editors' Choice–winning Pioneer Elite KURO PRO-150FD plasma" (PC Magazine)

Auditor, I can agree with you on some points, but what I find interesting is that you constantly contradict yourself.

Note the above, as you are quoting a Magazine, aka, hack, according to you.

Also, we all know that the Samsung, while it has nice blacks for an LCD, isn't comparable to last years Kuro, which you are using for comparison. Also, that review doesn't take into account things like flashlighting, or Mura, which affect black levels immensely.

So what i want to know is if I buy the Kuro and watch a movie and some tv before running the break in disc, am I asking for problems.

So what i want to know is if I buy the Kuro and watch a movie and some tv before running the break in disc, am I asking for problems.
No. You can enjoy your TV, then run the break in disc overnight while sleeping or away. Some folks here never run the break in disc and never have a problem.

One other question is power consumption. Both tvs are energy star qualified and I know the plasma will use more power, but is there really much of a difference?

Auditor, I can agree with you on some points, but what I find interesting is that you constantly contradict yourself.

Note the above, as you are quoting a Magazine, aka, hack, according to you.

Also, we all know that the Samsung, while it has nice blacks for an LCD, isn't comparable to last years Kuro, which you are using for comparison. Also, that review doesn't take into account things like flashlighting, or Mura, which affect black levels immensely.

I'm just posting a report from PC mag. According to his test measurements, the black were similar to the Kuro, not better.

The 5020, no question about it. When it comes to gaming, it's not even close.

I would never put a 7k set like a Elite 151 under the risk of burn-in. If I had such a set, it would never have a game console hooked up to it. You would never see static images left for a long period of time.

That's YOUR problem. I play games on my 141 all the time, and let me tell you, I'd say the gaming performance is more impressive than its movie performance. Absolutely amazing, with ZERO IR. ZERO! But I started playing games on it after a lengthy 6 hr break-in period. ;)

A Samsung 650 is ok for gaming, but there really is no comparison with a 5020. The 5020 spanks it.

I'm just posting a report from PC mag. According to his test measurements, the black were similar to the Kuro, not better.
That's fantastic! You posted an article about an 8G Kuro. Now what does that have to do with a 9G Kuro (5020) like what we're comparing here?

That's YOUR problem. I play games on my 141 all the time, and let me tell you, I'd say the gaming performance is more impressive than its movie performance. Absolutely amazing, with ZERO IR. ZERO! But I started playing games on it after a lengthy 6 hr break-in period. ;)

A Samsung 650 is ok for gaming, but there really is no comparison with a 5020. The 5020 spanks it.

The games that I play on my 650 is more than just OK. I don't own a 5020, I've been thinking about getting one, so I cannot confirm your findings.

I probably wouldn't confirm your findings as I would never play games on an expensive plasma like the 5020. I simply believe that burn-in is a probably for PDP's.

The games that I play on my 650 is more than just OK. I don't own a 5020, I've been thinking about getting one, so I cannot confirm your findings.

I simply believe that burn-in is a probably for PDP's.

So you you don't believe reports from actual owners that are gamers and haven't had any issues with their sets? What's better than actual hands on testimonials? :rolleyes:

Burn in is an issue for all plasmas. I also don't like the dirty whites on plasmas.


Will you seriously quit posting BS? It's getting annoying.

This might be the most over stated opinion ever posted on a board full of over stated opinions. My plasma looks great in a brightly lit room, and it replaced an LCD. I have two windows and two glass doors facing south (the most light possible). My plasma looks great (better than my LCD) unless sunlight shines directly on it....then my LCD had a minor advantage. By the way, even the LCD could not tolerate direct sunlight.


You said it perfectly. I'm so sick and tired of that argument. My new Panny is just as bright as my XBR5 was. To tell you the truth, I have to turn down the brightness levels on the Panny! And yes, my TV is in a very well lit room as well. I'm tired of the dirty whites and burn in BS that goes on in these forums.

I probably wouldn't confirm your findings as I would never play games on an expensive plasma like the 5020. I simply believe that burn-in is a probably for PDP's.

We'll thats just dumb. Why in the hell would Pioneer have a "Game Mode" if playing games would do the TV harm. I game all the time and never had burn-in. Gimme a break.

We'll that just dumb. Why in the hell would Pioneer have a "Game Mode" if playing games would do the TV harm. I game all the time and never had burn-in. Gimme a break.

Exactly. Same with my Panny. My family plays all gaming systems for hours and hours and never once have I noticed any IR or Burn in.

Samsung A750

"The set's calibrated picture produced an utterly impressive 3725:1 contrast ratio, thanks to its dark black level of 0.03 cd/m2. This result was similar to the black level I measured from the Editors' Choice–winning Pioneer Elite KURO PRO-150FD plasma" (PC Magazine)

Ahh, but the 150's ansi contrast is ~2x that at ~7/8k:1.
Then there's sample and hold with the 650/750.
The 5020 has a higher ansi and lower black level, while being able to get brighter as well.
Really, all the 650 has over the 5020 is color accuracy, not saturation though.

So you you don't believe reports from actual owners that are gamers and haven't had any issues with their sets? What's better than actual hands on testimonials? :rolleyes:

In all due respects, I don't trust some of the testimonials around here, too much advocacy goes in with them.

Ahh, but the 150's ansi contrast is ~2x that at ~7/8k:1.
Then there's sample and hold with the 650/750.
The 5020 has a higher ansi and lower black level, while being able to get brighter as well.
Really, all the 650 has over the 5020 is color accuracy, not saturation though.

Are you telling me that the 5020 is brighter than my 650?

Exactly. Same with my Panny. My family plays all gaming systems for hours and hours and never once have I noticed any IR or Burn in.

I challenge you to the leave game on pause for a few hours and then come back. Please let me know your results.

I could have listed brightness, but if you calibrate them both there probably isn't a huge difference....though definitely in the Samsung's favor whatever percentage there is.
Ability to go brightest the LCD will obviously win.

I challenge you to leave game on pause for a few hours and then come back.


You've lost the challenge. My son has fallen asleep with his XBOX 360 on a screen for hours. NO Burn in! And who in the world leaves games on pause for hours in the first place? Come on now, let's get realistic.

Man, I'm tempted to buy you a Plasma just to shut you up!! :)

You've lost the challenge. My son has fallen asleep with his XBOX 360 on a screen for hours. NO Burn in! And who in the world leaves games on pause for hours in the first place? Come on now, let's get realistic.

Man, I'm tempted to buy you a Plasma just to shut you up!! :)

I'll chip in.

You've lost the challenge. My son has fallen asleep with his XBOX 360 on a screen for hours. NO Burn in! And who in the world leaves games on pause for hours in the first place? Come on now, let's get realistic.

Man, I'm tempted to buy you a Plasma just to shut you up!! :)

I already own a plasma. I own both LCD and Plasma. Not married to one technology.

I'll chip in.

I want you take the challenge as well.:)

I want you take the challenge as well.:)

I have a 20 month at home. I've had Mickey Mouse paused for hours at a time. Never seen any kind of burn in.

I'll challenge you to stop bashing Plasma for 1 day. I bet you can't do it??!?!

I have a 20 month at home. I've had Mickey Mouse paused for hours at a time. Never seen any kind of burn in.

I'll challenge you to stop bashing Plasma for 1 day. I bet you can't do it??!?!

What do you consider bashing plasma? If I find your definition to be a good one, I will declare a 1 day moratorium of bashing plasma.:D

What do you consider bashing plasma? If I find your definition to be a good one, I will declare a 1 day moratorium of bashing plasma.:D

I would prefer to challenge you to just stop posting entirely. I've never seen you post anything other than overblown garbage and incorrect information.

Still wondering about the difference in power consumption.

Still wondering about the difference in power consumption.

Nil.

Nothing significant. I think some stat showed it was about $6.00 a year.

For the people that game. What mode are you using to game with on the 5020.

Also how long are your avg gaming sessions. Do you use the wash at all after your gaming. Thanks Hopefully they will have one in stock since I cant get it til Tomorrow and they wont hold it overnight.

The games that I play on my 650 is more than just OK. I don't own a 5020, I've been thinking about getting one, so I cannot confirm your findings.


Well I DO know. My friend has a Samsung 650 (which I recommended to him by the way) and his games do look good, however you need to put it in game mode to reduce the input lag to a minimum. And let me tell you, there is quite a bit of lag between standard modes and game mode. To me it was like night and day (MKII was the most noticeable). Games like RB, GH, and fighting games like Street Fighter II HD require the least amount of input lag in order to play it properly. However, when you put it in game mode the picture quality takes a pretty big hit. That's my main complaint about the 6/7/8 series Samsungs. However, I will give it to you, if you want an LCD for gaming, I'd either recommend the Sony Z series or Samsung 6/7/8 series despite their shortcomings.

But when you are comparing a 5020 and a 650, it really is no contest. You've got a serious hang up about burn-in, and apparently you'll keep parroting that off everytime someone mentions games and plasma in the same sentence. I don't think I can help you with that, because it looks like you've just made up your mind, despite what every other Kuro owner tells you. I don't have an agenda. I don't have stock in Pioneer or plasma. I tell it how it is. Like I said, I recommended my friend his TV and he loves it.

I probably wouldn't confirm your findings as I would never play games on an expensive plasma like the 5020. I simply believe that burn-in is a probably for PDP's.
:rolleyes: That's your loss then. You can believe what you want. Now excuse me, I have to play some Street Fighter II HD on my 141. ;)

Well I DO know. My friend has a Samsung 650 (which I recommended to him by the way) and his games do look good, however you need to put it in game mode to reduce the input lag to a minimum. And let me tell you, there is quite a bit of lag between standard modes and game mode. To me it was like night and day (MKII was the most noticeable). Games like RB, GH, and fighting games like Street Fighter II HD require the least amount of input lag in order to play it properly. However, when you put it in game mode the picture quality takes a pretty big hit. That's my main complaint about the 6/7/8 series Samsungs. However, I will give it to you, if you want an LCD for gaming, I'd either recommend the Sony Z series or Samsung 6/7/8 series despite their shortcomings.

But when you are comparing a 5020 and a 650, it really is no contest. You've got a serious hang up about burn-in, and apparently you'll keep parroting that off everytime someone mentions games and plasma in the same sentence. I don't think I can help you with that, because it looks like you've just made up your mind, despite what every other Kuro owner tells you. I don't have an agenda. I don't have stock in Pioneer or plasma. I tell it how it is. Like I said, I recommended my friend his TV and he loves it.


:rolleyes: That's your loss then. You can believe what you want. Now excuse me, I have to play some Street Fighter II HD on my 141. ;)

I play Madden 2008 on my LNA650 and its awesome. I can play around with the different picture settings (there's so many) for a pleasing picture. I can turn on AMP or turn it off. I can get that 3-D look if I so choose to.

I'm not stuck with limited to pictures settings. You just need to accept that fact that everybody doesn't see things the same way to do. I know that the Kuro's top plasmas, however they're not the be all end all.

I play Madden 2008 on my LNA650 and its awesome. I can play around with the different picture settings (there's so many) for a pleasing picture. I can turn on AMP or turn it off. I can get that 3-D look if I so choose to.

I'm not stuck with limited to pictures settings. You just need to accept that fact that everybody doesn't see things the same way to do. I know that the Kuro's top plasmas, however they're not the be all end all.
What are you talking about? You haven't even seen a Kuro in action (games). And you're talking like I've never used a 650. I've played with a 650 extensively (LN52A650 to be exact), and yes, you lose picture controls and take a loss in picture quality when you are in game mode. However, a lot of games will work just fine in the standard modes, Grid, Madden, Burnout Paradise, etc. But when you play games like CoD4 and fighting games that require ZERO (or as close to zero) input lag, you put the set in game mode. And again, a 650 vs a Kuro in games is no contest. I've seen both in action, you've only seen one. So if I were you, I'd just stick with commenting on what you know, the 650, and quit spreading misinformation. You come off as a salesman that is trying to meet his quota.

Again, the 6/7/8 series are really nice LCDs, and I'd go as far as to say some of the top LCDs out today. But when compared to the 5020, at least in gaming, there really is no question which is better.

Nil.

Nothing significant. I think some stat showed it was about $6.00 a year.
No, it's quite a bit more than that, unless you mean difference only. Cost is about ~$85-90 per year. See the "Juice box" chart near the bottom.
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/pioneer-kuro-pdp-5020fd/4505-6482_7-33002523-2.html?tag=txt;page

No. You can enjoy your TV, then run the break in disc overnight while sleeping or away. Some folks here never run the break in disc and never have a problem.
How long does that disk (or USB drive images) have to be run?
Thanks.

How long does that disk (or USB drive images) have to be run?
Thanks.IIRC, I think I ran it for 150-200 hours. Plus, you use a specific group of settings for the burn in disc, much different than what you use to watch content.

Click here for D-Nice's recommended settings thread. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15607102#post15607102)

IIRC, I think I ran it for 150-200 hours. Plus, you use a specific group of settings for the burn in disc, much different than what you use to watch content.
The way you run the disk is different from the way you run the thumb-drive images?

Click here for D-Nice's recommended settings thread. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15607102#post15607102)
I think that's the wrong URL. That one is "Laser TV, OLED TV, or SED TV...Which one would you choose?".

The games that I play on my 650 is more than just OK. I don't own a 5020, I've been thinking about getting one, so I cannot confirm your findings.


:eek: Auditor are you going impartial? Stop the presses :D

I challenge you to the leave game on pause for a few hours and then come back. Please let me know your results.

I have left the lobby screen on in COD4 on my old 5010 for 8 hours straight with zero ir. I now have a 5020 and orbiter mode i think is pretty much idiot proof. Also the point of buying a nice set like a pio is too enjoy the picture, when you suggested that gaming might be an issue considering price, its kinda like buying a ferrari and never "enjoying" it.

"Uminchu"?


IIRC, I think I ran it for 150-200 hours. Plus, you use a specific group of settings for the burn in disc, much different than what you use to watch content.
The way you run the disk is different from the way you run the thumb-drive images?

Click here for D-Nice's recommended settings thread. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15607102#post15607102)
I think that's the wrong URL. That one is "Laser TV, OLED TV, or SED TV...Which one would you choose?".Nothing about any settings.

As far as true PQ, it is no contest. I have a Pio Elite 151 and a Sammy LN46A630. Both are in well lit rooms. I watch the plasma whenever I can. The LCDs still crush black.

The only time I have ever noticed "dirty whites" was in a BB showroom when everything was in torch mode.

I just got rid of my 120hz LCD for a 5020. No comparison. I won't be buying any more lcds, except as a computer monitor. This set is a huge upgrade.

As far as true PQ, it is no contest. I have a Pio Elite 151 and a Sammy LN46A630. Both are in well lit rooms. I watch the plasma whenever I can. The LCDs still crush black.

The only time I have ever noticed "dirty whites" was in a BB showroom when everything was in torch mode.

You must don't have your Sammy tweaked right because they don't have to crush the blacks. I have tremendous shadow detail on my LNA650.

Also, there is no way that any plasma, including the super duper Pioneer Elite wine and caviar display is going to look better in a brightly lit room than type flight LCD, aint going to happen.

Also, the whites on plasmas look that way in comparison to LCD, you see what you're missing. The Kuro has great blacks at the expense of true whites. The Kuro is rather dim, that's probably because they use a kind of tinted screen.

Overall, displays based on both PDP and LCD technology has a ways to go for either of them to be classified as the ultimate display.

That is why I will always have both technologies, PDP and LCD so I can enjoy the strengths of both technologies.

As far as true PQ, it is no contest. I have a Pio Elite 151 and a Sammy LN46A630. Both are in well lit rooms. I watch the plasma whenever I can. The LCDs still crush black.

The only time I have ever noticed "dirty whites" was in a BB showroom when everything was in torch mode.

You are correct.
The only way the samsung will compete with the Kuro is if you open all the windows, turn on all the lights, make sure the sun is shining on the panel, pause the image so there is no motion artifacting or Blurr, Sit dead center of the panel and make sure you dont lean to the side any, And make sure you have panel that doesn't bleed the backlight all around the edges or exhibit purple haze/clouds.

You can talk about purple colorations and off axis viewing with LCD.

But you can talk about dirty whites, dithering, noise or grainy pictures with plasmas.

Also, you don't have sit in a dark cave like enviornment to expirence the benefits of a top flight LCD. I can have my lights blasted while working on paper work and surfing the net, a top flight LCD's blacks are not going to turn gray like on a plasma.

I'm a 650 owner, and based on what I've seen at BB, I'm not sure I would buy a 5020 over the 120hz Samsungs, the locked out controls and hard-coded processing just seem too restrictive for my liking, considering the price difference. I did just order an Elite though... :o the 650's a nice TV, but being a CRT diehard, I just couldn't gel with the LCD "look".

Yea I just returned my Sammy A750 for the Pro-111FD there not even in the same class. I thought I'd give LCD another chance since I tried Samsungs 120hz LCD back in 07 and I did like the A750 before I heard about the Kuro sale at BB but after having them both side by side I will stick with Plasma til it dies.

LCD was brighter I had some clouding and flash lighting going on. I did not like that Samsung still doesnt let you change anything in Game mode. Blu Ray movies did look awesome on the 750 also. I just dont like that whole Autio Motion Plus.

In the end buy whatever is in your budget and needs. I dont want to hear anything about how plasma has glare problems because after owning both like I said and had them side by side the 750 did have more glare then the plasma. But the screen samsung put on those LCD are awesome for PQ I will give them that.

Both of them have there problems but after owning a Samsung Plasma for over a year and having the LCD for 6 weeks I'll live with the Plasma issues over LCD.

I'm a 650 owner, and based on what I've seen at BB, I'm not sure I would buy a 5020 over the 120hz Samsungs, the locked out controls and hard-coded processing just seem too restrictive for my liking, considering the price difference. I did just order an Elite though... :o the 650's a nice TV, but being a CRT diehard, I just couldn't gel with the LCD "look".

I can definitly see where you are coming from.

I had the 6020 before upgrading to a pro-151.

Before getting the 6020, I was used to the Sony SXRD KDSR60XBR1, Sony KDL52XBR4 120hz lcd, PDP-5080HD kuro plasma, and Samsung Lnt5271F 120hz LCD.
All of these TV's had extensive picture controls.

When I got the 6020, I was kinda floored by how long it took me to dial the picture in using movie mode. Within about 1 minute, I had reached the end of adjustability. Which to be honest, really got me angry.
I was thinking "I just paid over 4 grand for a TV without the basic picture adjustments like color temp, etc.?????"
And since I had the 5080 beforehand, I felt like something was missing.

But after watching the TV for about 10 minutes, I was actually blown away by this TV much more than any of the other TV's regardless of its adjustability.
No matter what I threw at this TV, IT performed like a champ and satisfied the heck out of me.
Deep dark blacks that are simply unbeatable. Colors that just popped off the screen.
The contrast gives it a 3-D feel like no other TV I had witnessed.
And the 3D-feel wasn't an artificial/artifacting 3D-feel like with the 120hz LCD's I had before.
The motion performance on this TV was on-par with the 5080 I had before (which was basically perfect motion).

All this led me to the conclusion that this Tv outperformed the other TV's I had before easily (with the exception of the 5080, which the difference was noticable and big, but not HUGE).

So even with the small amount of picture controls, the 6020 did not dissappoint.

Eventually, I decided that if this TV can be so amazing with so little controls, I HAD to have a 9G elite and see what it is capable of and I am glad I did because it is basically like having a 5020/6020 with the adjustability to dial it in to your exact taste/preferences.

I too was concerned about the lack of picture controls. However, with the amount of picture modes on the 5020, I have not had a problem finding a picture I like.

You can talk about purple colorations and off axis viewing with LCD.

But you can talk about dirty whites, dithering, noise or grainy pictures with plasmas.

Also, you don't have sit in a dark cave like enviornment to expirence the benefits of a top flight LCD. I can have my lights blasted while working paper work and surfering the net, a top flight LCD's blacks are going to turn gray on a plasma.

Ahh, but here in lies the sticky situation...though one might prefer an LCD, if they want accurate and calibrated they will lose alot of that punchy, overly bright picture.
Then while still shots will be cleaner on an lcd than a plasma. once things get moving(which is most of everything) it wont even be close.

Also, who watches discerningly in a well lit room no matter the display??

I too was concerned about the lack of picture controls. However, with the amount of picture modes on the 5020, I have not had a problem finding a picture I like.

It really bothered me a lot too with my 6020 and while it does still annoy me sometimes I've learned to live with less. And honestly, I had a Panasonic 58PX600U a couple of years ago and other than temperature controls it's user menu wasn't any more advanced (and that TV actually cost me more than my 6020). Still, I don't excuse Pioneer from this.

I'm sorry, but i have to take a minute to rant a little on ppl who are like...'i would never have a game system hooked up to a PDP'.....or 'game for a few hours and see what happens'... ohhh im scared

i dont know what games you play but mine involve motion....the fear of gaming PDP should stem from static images but i'm not sure i know of a game that doesn't involve cut scenes, or time between games (ie online gaming) not to mention, i'm not a hardcore gamer and i dont put in 8-12 hour sessions and even if i did, i'm sure there would be times where i would need to pause the game or take a break or something. I just feel like it would be impossible to pull this off...unless you had the game on pause and left your house for a day or two i just cant see how it could be done....

Many people argue CRTs don't suffer from burn in, CRT computer monitors could suffer from this as well, hence the use of screensavers. I dont know if anyone has tested this, but the fact that they are both phosphor based would lead me to believe that it would be just as hard to burn a CRT as a Plasma....did you ever worry about burning in your CRT over the last 20 years of owning one????!!!!! NO, cuz you a) probably didn't know it could happen.... and b) because its highly improbable

thanks for reading the rant...i just hate when ppl are like...a plasma....instant burn in dont game!!!....hell, "you probably shouldnt watch tv on a PDP", will be the next thing they will come up with....channels like ESPN and MSNBC, TBS, TNT, USA....:eek:ones with static logos in the corner :eek:....but even these goto COMMERCIAL (cept for ESPN, they keep their little logo thing)

ppl just love to hate

Yea I just returned my Sammy A750 for the Pro-111FD there not even in the same class. I thought I'd give LCD another chance since I tried Samsungs 120hz LCD back in 07 and I did like the A750 before I heard about the Kuro sale at BB but after having them both side by side I will stick with Plasma til it dies.

LCD was brighter I had some clouding and flash lighting going on. I did not like that Samsung still doesnt let you change anything in Game mode. Blu Ray movies did look awesome on the 750 also. I just dont like that whole Autio Motion Plus.

In the end buy whatever is in your budget and needs. I dont want to hear anything about how plasma has glare problems because after owning both like I said and had them side by side the 750 did have more glare then the plasma. But the screen samsung put on those LCD are awesome for PQ I will give them that.

Both of them have there problems but after owning a Samsung Plasma for over a year and having the LCD for 6 weeks I'll live with the Plasma issues over LCD.

I don't have problem with your post accept that you should state that you prefer the Kuro over the A750. That's certainly understandable.

It really bothered me a lot too with my 6020 and while it does still annoy me sometimes I've learned to live with less. And honestly, I had a Panasonic 58PX600U a couple of years ago and other than temperature controls it's user menu wasn't any more advanced (and that TV actually cost me more than my 6020). Still, I don't excuse Pioneer from this.

The lack of picture controls on the 6020 is reprehensible. Like I said, I think the Kuro as good plasmas, the 6020 is a fine display, but I believe they left off the picture controls purposefully as an attempt to get you to buy the more expensive elites that generally offer the same picture. The 151 and 6020is the same panel, minus the the picture controls.

Ahh, but here in lies the sticky situation...though one might prefer an LCD, if they want accurate and calibrated they will lose alot of that punchy, overly bright picture.
Then while still shots will be cleaner on an lcd than a plasma. once things get moving(which is most of everything) it wont even be close.

Also, who watches discerningly in a well lit room no matter the display??

Can you tell me why certain AVS'ers would spend top dollars on top of the line LCD's like the Samsung A950 and the XBR8? These folks are well aware of the Kuro. Also, AVS'ers that typically purchase 6-7K displays will have done a lot of research.

The facts show that if a person can afford a Sony XBR8 and a Samsung A950 that can afford a Kuro. Why are they choosing the top LCD over the top Plasmas? Are they stupid? Are they illinformed?

Everyone that chooses are top LCD over the Kuro can't all be stupid or fooled by the bright lights in B&M showroom.

Its that they prefer LCD over Plasma, for whatever reason. Plasma enthusiast seem to have a hard time accepting that everyone doesn't share your prefer for plasma.

Would someone please explain what you guys mean by these comments about the "lack of picture controls" on the 5020/6020? I've asked before but no one has answered. Does it not have color, tint, contrast, brightness, sharpness? What exactly is it lacking?
Thanks.

Can you tell me why certain AVS'ers would spend top dollars on top of the line LCD's like the Samsung A950 and the XBR8? These folks are well aware of the Kuro. Also, AVS'ers that typically purchase 6-7K displays will have done a lot of research.

The facts show that if a person can afford a Sony XBR8 and a Samsung A950 that can afford a Kuro. Why are they choosing the top LCD over the top Plasmas? Are they stupid? Are they illinformed?

Everyone that chooses are top LCD over the Kuro can't all be stupid or fooled by the bright lights in B&M showroom.

Its that they prefer LCD over Plasma, for whatever reason. Plasma enthusiast seem to have a hard time accepting that everyone doesn't share your prefer for plasma.

I really dont think that its they prefer LCD over plasma. Most of them dont know a thing or two about either of the technologies. The people who buy the top LCD's are trained to think that because its the most expensive it must be the best, there are also people that are brand loyal...also in the stores, there is more mark up on the LCD screens not to mention in the stores people are just as dumb as my father, but because they work they 'they must know something' right...wrong...i had a huge debate with one guy at a CC not to long ago about why LCD was superior, and his reason was because its 120hz so its twice as clear, and its better for gaming...he couldnt tell me why, but he just knew. He also just knew that Plasma was for dark rooms, if you have any windows plasma looks like garbage. He also knew that plasmas only last for a few years before they get dark....and that they burn in super fast.....clearly he knew a lot!!! He knew of all the reason's a little brochure they read during training that told him this because his store makes more money on him selling LCD's because the markup is greater so why would they tell him to push the plasmas if you could get a lcd sale

People as a whole are dumb...they choose to be so....they use a computer in every aspect of their lives, ask them what a hard drive is and they can't answer.....they spend hours in their car but ask them which one is the alternator and you get blank stares.....and they wonder why they get ripped off by mechanics and geek squad?!?!? Just because someone went out and bought a Ferrari and there is a Audi just as fast doesn't mean they know a thing about cars....

"Uminchu"?Sorry, I was away from the forums for a few days. Also sorry about the bad link. I'm having difficulty getting the correct one to work, so please search the plasma forum for "The Official Pioneer 9G Kuro Settings/Issues Thread".

I burned and ran the DVD; I've never used the thumb drive method. Until the break in is complete, be careful to use the settings in Post #1 for break in only. For viewable content, use the settings in Post #2 (or some variation thereof, according to your preferences), and keep track of your break in hours until you reach 150.

Most of them dont know a thing or two about either of the technologies.

WOW, this say's it all.

Can you tell me why certain AVS'ers would spend top dollars on top of the line LCD's like the Samsung A950 and the XBR8? These folks are well aware of the Kuro. Also, AVS'ers that typically purchase 6-7K displays will have done a lot of research.

The facts show that if a person can afford a Sony XBR8 and a Samsung A950 that can afford a Kuro. Why are they choosing the top LCD over the top Plasmas? Are they stupid? Are they illinformed?

Everyone that chooses are top LCD over the Kuro can't all be stupid or fooled by the bright lights in B&M showroom.

Its that they prefer LCD over Plasma, for whatever reason. Plasma enthusiast seem to have a hard time accepting that everyone doesn't share your prefer for plasma.

You answered your own redundant questions....for some reason they prefer them, don't ask me what their reasons are as I'm not in their heads. To each their own.
Though I think that the numbers of avs'ers and videophiles and pro's that have bought an xbr8 or a960 over a kuro are smaller than you think.
i.e. the number of reviews who give kuro the nod as well.(some average guys and some decades deep into this hooby/field with more knowledge than you and I put together will ever have)
It does seem from your multitude of posts here that you are trying to convince someone of something?

You answered your own redundant questions....for some reaso nthey prefer them, don't ask me what that reason could be as I'm not in their heads.
It does seem from your multitude of posts there that you are trying to convince someone of something?

Not really. My only point is that some people, not matter how hard you try (not you) insult them, prefer LCD. They prefe them over Plasma and you can't change that.

Though I think that the numbers of avs'ers and videophiles and pro's that have bought an xbr8 or a960 over a kuro are smaller than you think.

He doesn't have any numbers, he's just making claims to bolster his position.

"Uminchu"?

Would someone please explain what you guys mean by these comments about the "lack of picture controls" on the 5020/6020? I've asked before but no one has answered. Does it not have color, tint, contrast, brightness, sharpness? What exactly is it lacking?
Thanks.They have the settings you mention, but not a whole lot more. Pioneer removed (read: crippled) a lot of adjustments from the 9G non-Elite menus vs 8G and previous years. That said, a 9G non-Elite in movie mode is still pretty accurate right out of the box. The Elites are a tweaker's dream without ever having to browse a service menu.

Hot topic here as it always is between plasma and Lcd to bad it gets personal sometimes we just like what we like. Saying that I still think the orignal poster will get a lot out of this thread I personally like plasma better because of the natural look accurate colors especially with the Kuro they just look better to me being a owner of both. When I first saw the 7 series sammies I was amazed at the picture until the 3-D look started to remind me of watching soaps you know that video look...I prefer a clear clean no noise film look on a display the way most producers want it to look not a camcorder or home video look just my opinion on how the two displays differ to me. Someone on a previous post talked about true whites on a LCD I agree the LCD's whites are more white true, but how do whites compliment the other colors they don't I've never read anything anywhere about whites it's always been about the blacks and how black brings out the other colors. To me when magazines write on how Lcds are improving I agree they have come a long way But, I have yet to read one article that says a Samsung is better than a Pioneer and IMHO I think the top of the Line Panasonics look better than the Lcd's again my opinion... I guest I'm a plasma fanboy, But I do respect everyone elses opinion..The 5020 gets my vote.

The lack of picture controls on the 6020 is reprehensible. Like I said, I think the Kuro as good plasmas, the 6020 is a fine display, but I believe they left off the picture controls purposefully as an attempt to get you to buy the more expensive elites that generally offer the same picture. The 151 and 6020is the same panel, minus the the picture controls.

Oh there's no doubt in my mind that was Pioneer's intent. I'm picky but I just couldn't stomach paying $1500 for a extra picture controls when it's basically the same TV and I know I'd upgrade next year if at all possible.

He doesn't have any numbers, he's just making claims to bolster his position.

Overall, when it comes to sales between Plasma and LCD, there's no contest, LCD is blowing plasma away.

As far as the AVS forum goes, I never said the XRB8's and A950 are selling more than the Kuro's, I don't know. My point is that there are those choosing a top of the line LCD's over a top of the line plasmas. For proof, go over to the LCD forums and see for yourself.

I guest I'm a plasma fanboy

You kind of seem like one. However, there is nothing wrong with being one as long as you admitt that you are.

Also, magazine reviewers are simply paid hacks, who really cares about them. The bottomline is, whatever appeals to your eyes is what matters most. I don't care 1500 paid magazine hacks said the Kuro looks better, if doesn't look better to me, I not going to drop my money down on one. Its my money!!

You are saying that all pro's are paid hacks? So everyone drooling over Kuro's are on the take, even individual consumers?
Wow.

You kind of seem like one. However, there is nothing wrong with being one as long as you admitt that you are.

Also, magazine reviewers are simply paid hacks, who really cares about them. The bottomline is, whatever appeals to your eyes is what matters most. I don't care 1500 paid magazine hacks said the Kuro looks better, if doesn't look better to me, I not going to drop my money down on one. Its my money!!

To you, they are only paid hacks because they don't favor your Samsungs. Come on now......

To you, they are only paid hacks because they don't favor your Samsungs. Come on now......

I'm not in favor of Samsung. I have no love for Samsung. I think they make fantastic LCD's, but they're not the be all end all.

I say they are paid hacks because that's what they are. BTW, have you ever heard of the Audio Critic? If was audio magazine that advocated controlled, DBT scientific listening test. That rarely if ever received ad dollars from audio equipment manufacturers because the editor was so scientific and brutally honest.

The likes of Krell, Theta, Classe', Monster etc. would never have ads in that publication. They were scared to death of unbiased reviews of their equipment.

I would like to see something similiar, if possible, for video comparison. No owner of a display or magazine publication ,that receives ad dollars from company that makes the equipment they review, should be classified as unbiased.

You are saying that all pro's are paid hacks? So everyone drooling over Kuro's are on the take, even individual consumers?
Wow.

What's a pro? A professional opinion giver? What university offers a degree in opinion making?

Overall, when it comes to sales between Plasma and LCD, there's no contest, LCD is blowing plasma away.

.

You know why? cause they cater to a much larger market with many more models available and sizes available. Plasma starts at 42" where as LCD has sizes all the way down to 19" as it's really simple economics and doesn't mean one is better than the other. You have even admitted in several posts that you prefer plasma's picture over LCD's. :rolleyes:

What's a pro? A professional opinion giver? What university offers a degree in opinion making?

hopefully this will help you understand what a pro is:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/professional

Overall, when it comes to sales between Plasma and LCD, there's no contest, LCD is blowing plasma away.

As far as the AVS forum goes, I never said the XRB8's and A950 are selling more than the Kuro's, I don't know. My point is that there are those choosing a top of the line LCD's over a top of the line plasmas. For proof, go over to the LCD forums and see for yourself.

So you're agreeing that you don't have any numbers to actually back what you're saying.

So you're agreeing that you don't have any numbers to actually back what you're saying.

I don't need any numbers, the thing speaks for itself, there are people choosing top flight LCD's over plasmas. I know you may not believe it but its true.

You know why? cause they cater to a much larger market with many more models available and sizes available. Plasma starts at 42" where as LCD has sizes all the way down to 19" as it's really simple economics and doesn't mean one is better than the other. You have even admitted in several posts that you prefer plasma's picture over LCD's. :rolleyes:


Yes, I do prefer the PQ of plasma over LCD because I'm a movie fanatic. I think plasma picture is more like the cinema. I'm bias in that way. But I like LCD for what it does, I can watch LCD while in the bright lights and its going to look great.

Yes, I do prefer the PQ of plasma over LCD because I'm a movie fanatic. I think plasma picture is more like the cinema. I'm bias in that way. But I like LCD for what it does, I can watch LCD while in the bright lights and its going to look great.

I wouldn't buy a 50" home theater type TV to watch in bright lights and not sure why anyone would, but if bright lights were the case, LCD wouldn't look great, just better than a plasma.

I have both plasma and LCD's in my house and prefer the look of the plasma under normal viewing conditions.

I my sister my cousin Play xbox 360 EVERY DAY ALL DAY this tv hardly gets turned off, Gow 2 nfs undercover midnight club la rockband 2 guitar hero world tour/3

gamer tag gus738 on ps3/xbox live for proof

NO image retention No burn in and with hud screens heck i pause it on lobby more then half an hr when i go eat or restroom.

on my ps3 i mostly use it for blu ray/dvds a few ps3 games like RFOM.

point is that i never get IR not a hint of it and i treat my tv like a TV i dont baby it, and nor should i regardless if you spent 1k or 5k.

the non elite has the same resistance as the elite in terms of ir/bi

They have the settings you mention, but not a whole lot more. Pioneer removed (read: crippled) a lot of adjustments from the 9G non-Elite menus vs 8G and previous years. That said, a 9G non-Elite in movie mode is still pretty accurate right out of the box. The Elites are a tweaker's dream without ever having to browse a service menu.
Ok thanks for the reply. My 5020 is due to arrive tomorrow, so I don't have it yet. I've read much about "controlcal" but don't know what that is, nor do I know yet what "calibration" means with regards to the 5020. Will using either of those methods give you any of the more "advanced" controls like gamma for example? Thanks.

Sorry, I was away from the forums for a few days. Also sorry about the bad link. I'm having difficulty getting the correct one to work, so please search the plasma forum for "The Official Pioneer 9G Kuro Settings/Issues Thread".
Thanks I found it.

I burned and ran the DVD; I've never used the thumb drive method. Until the break in is complete, be careful to use the settings in Post #1 for break in only. For viewable content, use the settings in Post #2 (or some variation thereof, according to your preferences), and keep track of your break in hours until you reach 150.
I'm a bit confused on this. You should not use the settings in post #1 when watching TV? Is it ok to watch TV on it during the first 150 hours? Thanks.

Thanks I found it.


I'm a bit confused on this. You should not use the settings in post #1 when watching TV? Is it ok to watch TV on it during the first 150 hours? Thanks.It's ok to watch during break in, but don't use the settings in post #1 while watching. Use one of the default settings, tweaked to your liking. The reference settings in posts 2-5 won't look as he intends them until after the break in is complete. When you leave your house or go to sleep, go back to the post #1 settings and run the break in DVD or thumb drive, keeping track of your hours until you reach 150. Then start using the reference settings, and adjust them to your lighting and/or tastes.

Watch whatever you want right away.

But just to be on the safe side, if you're watching something with black bars/static parts of the screen for a while, switch the picture to something else periodically.

I'd only use the break-in DVD for when you're not actually watching your set. Its purpose is to safely speed up the break-in process, nothing more.

Watch whatever you want right away.

But just to be on the safe side, if you're watching something with black bars/static parts of the screen for a while, switch the picture to something else periodically.

I'd only use the break-in DVD for when you're not actually watching your set. Its purpose is to safely speed up the break-in process, nothing more.I'm sorry, I think I've done a poor job of explaining this, but I agree with tbird.

To break in your display, you adjust the settings to those recommended in post #1, run the DVD or thumb drive, then just walk away, go out to eat, go to sleep, or whatever. Keep track of the hours you have it running that way until you've accumulated 150 hours running the break in screens. When you want to watch TV or movies, readjust back to one of the default modes (movie is the most accurate) with more neutral settings and enjoy. When you're finished watching, go back to the post #1 settings and run the break in screens again. I think it took me a little over a week to run up 150 hours with the DVD. Once your break in is complete, start using D-Nice's reference settings from the posts #2-5, with variations to suit your room and/or tastes.

When you watch 4:3 content like SD or the occasional narrow format HD, either stretch the picture out to fill the screen or run grey bars. It's not a big deal, it just sounds more complicated than it really is.

Thanks guys.

When you watch 4:3 content like SD or the occasional narrow format HD, either stretch the picture out to fill the screen or run grey bars.

Is this during the break-in period, or all the time?

Thanks guys.



Is this during the break-in period, or all the time?There are differing opinions on that. A lot of people just leave it black and report having no IR issues. I'm more conservative about it, but I don't care for the way 4:3 looks stretched, so I run grey bars. There are times the grey bars don't quite fill the entire black areas, but I leave them on anyway. When I watch 2.35:1 movies, I leave the black letter box areas alone. There are posts and entire threads describing IR experiences. I've had my set for about a year and I've had no IR issues or incidents. Maybe I'm just lucky.

Ok thanks for the reply. My 5020 is due to arrive tomorrow, so I don't have it yet. I've read much about "controlcal" but don't know what that is, nor do I know yet what "calibration" means with regards to the 5020. Will using either of those methods give you any of the more "advanced" controls like gamma for example? Thanks.

Normally, I love a TV where I can tweak it. The problem with my Panny 850U is thats all I seem to do! It drives people crazy. :) I just got my 5020 on Saturday for my bedroom and I'm telling you the settings out of the box are pretty damn good. Very Very shocked and impressed. You will be simply blown away by the TV.

There are differing opinions on that. A lot of people just leave it black and report having no IR issues. I'm more conservative about it, but I don't care for the way 4:3 looks stretched, so I run grey bars. There are times the grey bars don't quite fill the entire black areas, but I leave them on anyway. When I watch 2.35:1 movies, I leave the black letter box areas alone. There are posts and entire threads describing IR experiences. I've had my set for about a year and I've had no IR issues or incidents. Maybe I'm just lucky.
Thanks. I guess it will be gray bars for me because I can't stand that stretched look either. Every time I look at my Mom & Dad's HDTV everyone looks squatty and fat. :eek: "Doesn't Oprah look like she's puttin' it on again, and even getting shorter?". "Uhh, Mom, you have the image stretched again!!" It also makes Neil Cavuto's head look even bigger than he claims, LOL. :D

There is no better tv right now sub $2000 than the 5020 Kuro. Bar none. End of discussion.

People as a whole are dumb...they choose to be so....they use a computer in every aspect of their lives, ask them what a hard drive is and they can't answer.....they spend hours in their car but ask them which one is the alternator and you get blank stares.....and they wonder why they get ripped off by mechanics and geek squad?!?!? Just because someone went out and bought a Ferrari and there is a Audi just as fast doesn't mean they know a thing about cars....

Wow you nailed it.

People who buy LCDs = idiots that just see torch mode at BB and take the bait. Don't know more about a TV other than how to turn it on and change channels.

People who buy plasmas = All Rhodes scholars that know everything, hell they are so smart they could build their own plasma set from recycled nixie tubes.

Either that or maybe some don't like burn-in prone dithery dim displays with weak dirty whites and cloudy greys (if more than 10 photons leak into the video dungeon) that double for room mirrors and space heaters.

Clint the PDP-5020 Is limited to certain adjustements however MOST persons who bought it are Impressed. Though you are not to have full settings or controls even on service menu with controlcal you Are limited.

So if you are a tweeker at heart or will want to FULLY calibrate it then you are to get an elite. if you are just going to adjust the excellent already grayscale then more power to you as this non elite tv is just set it and forget it if anyting D-nice settings on movie mode is enough.

Ok thanks for the reply. My 5020 is due to arrive tomorrow, so I don't have it yet. I've read much about "controlcal" but don't know what that is, nor do I know yet what "calibration" means with regards to the 5020. Will using either of those methods give you any of the more "advanced" controls like gamma for example? Thanks.



Dave I dont notice the flaws you claim in plasma i see accurate whites (not dull not yellow) clouds? heck no thats a flaw on a LCD not a plasma bud.

Clint the PDP-5020 Is limited to certain adjustements however MOST persons who bought it are Impressed. Though you are not to have full settings or controls even on service menu with controlcal you Are limited.

So if you are a tweeker at heart or will want to FULLY calibrate it then you are to get an elite. if you are just going to adjust the excellent already grayscale then more power to you as this non elite tv is just set it and forget it if anyting D-nice settings on movie mode is enough.
Thanks, that sums it up quite well! What really ticks me off is the jerks at Pioneer remove settings from the 9G 5020 that were found in the OLDER 8G (if I understand what people are saying here). What is the "8G" series, is that the 5010 or 5050, 5060, 5080 sets? If so then I feel better because those older sets were only 1365x768, 1280x768, etc. Oh crap, I just noticed the 5010 is 1920x1080. :eek:

What does the 5020 have that the 5010 does not? If the 5010 is an 8G series, I'm starting to feel sick, unless the 5020 is head 'n shoulders above it.

But getting back to features; it's what ALL manufacturers do, they just love to REMOVE needed useful features on newer versions of their electronics products. This is not limited only to TV's. I've been seeing it since the mid 1970's and it's revolting, inexcusable and senseless. As others have pointed out here, I too think it was a way for Pioneer to "extort" potential Kuro buyers into getting the Elite, a real chicken $h!t thing to do.

What does the 5020 have that the 5010 does not? If the 5010 is an 8G series, I'm starting to feel sick, unless the 5020 is head 'n shoulders above it.
I compared the two webpages of the 5010 and 5020 and the 5020 does have more entries listed under the "Specifications" tab. However, and a BIG however, the 5010 appears to have dual tuners which is exactly what I have been trying to find. :eek: I think I'm going to be sick. (That's why I almost got an Olevia 742i because it has true dual digital tuner PiP, I didn't because it's not the best picture).

Thanks, that sums it up quite well! What really ticks me off is the jerks at Pioneer remove settings from the 9G 5020 that were found in the OLDER 8G (if I understand what people are saying here). What is the "8G" series, is that the 5010 or 5050, 5060, 5080 sets? If so then I feel better because those older sets were only 1365x768, 1280x768, etc. Oh crap, I just noticed the 5010 is 1920x1080. :eek:

What does the 5020 have that the 5010 does not? If the 5010 is an 8G series, I'm starting to feel sick, unless the 5020 is head 'n shoulders above it.

But getting back to features; it's what ALL manufacturers do, they just love to REMOVE needed useful features on newer versions of their electronics products. This is not limited only to TV's. I've been seeing it since the mid 1970's and it's revolting, inexcusable and senseless. As others have pointed out here, I too think it was a way for Pioneer to "extort" potential Kuro buyers into getting the Elite, a real chicken $h!t thing to do.I have a 5010. It is last year's 8G, 50", 1080p, the first year of the Kuro models. Menus allow many more adjustments than 9G non-Elites. IMO, 9Gs have deeper blacks and better contrast, adding up to slightly better PQ in movie mode.

I have a 5010. It is last year's 8G, 50", 1080p, the first year of the Kuro models. Menus allow many more adjustments than 9G non-Elites. IMO, 9Gs have deeper blacks and better contrast, adding up to slightly better PQ in movie mode.
Thanks, so does the 5010 have dual tuners as the specs say, that can be used for PiP?

Hey guys I have worked at Best Buy (in HT) for about 8 months now and I have seen Burn-in on a pioneer 5010. A couple of our retarded employees worked one day and left a menu screen for pirates of the caribbean on for 13 hours straight and yes it did burn in. We ended up selling the tv for $700. So its hard as heck to burn in these tv's but yes they still will burn in. I know its pretty rare unless you have something wrong with you. The point is I have seen burn-in on a Pioneer and I look at tv's all day everyday and just today I bought the 5020 for $1800 "dont ask me how". The Kuro is a better television period. The only reason i would have bought the 6 series samsung over it was because of price, but now theres no reason. I actually got it cheaper than if i would have bought the 650. Well sorry for the lcd lovers out there but everyone in Our dept. agrees that the 5020 is a better tv than the 650, (not that it really matters because it still comes down to personal preference)

Wow you nailed it.

People who buy LCDs = idiots that just see torch mode at BB and take the bait. Don't know more about a TV other than how to turn it on and change channels.

People who buy plasmas = All Rhodes scholars that know everything, hell they are so smart they could build their own plasma set from recycled nixie tubes.

Either that or maybe some don't like burn-in prone dithery dim displays with weak dirty whites and cloudy greys (if more than 10 photons leak into the video dungeon) that double for room mirrors and space heaters.

Your response was just as silly as his statement. ;)

Uminchu?

Originally Posted by uminchu
I have a 5010. It is last year's 8G, 50", 1080p, the first year of the Kuro models. Menus allow many more adjustments than 9G non-Elites. IMO, 9Gs have deeper blacks and better contrast, adding up to slightly better PQ in movie mode.Thanks, so does the 5010 have dual tuners as the specs say, that can be used for PiP?

Yes it has dual tuners, 1-digital and 1-analog...but guess what? Analog goes away in June (unless further delayed by the present administration...

Yes it has dual tuners, 1-digital and 1-analog...but guess what? Analog goes away in June (unless further delayed by the present administration...
That's not exactly "dual tuners". ;) Dual tuners means two totally separate tuners totally independent from each other that can give you true dual-tuner PiP use. In other words, using PiP functions without any external device, using the PiP functions only from the two internal tuners. Check out the Olevia 742i or 747i. They're the only TV (current TV's) of which I'm aware that has dual ATSC/NTSC/QAM tuners.

The NTSC (analog) tuner will only be useless for OTA broadcasts, not if you use cable or satellite.

Hey guys I have worked at Best Buy (in HT) for about 8 months now and I have seen Burn-in on a pioneer 5010. A couple of our retarded employees worked one day and left a menu screen for pirates of the caribbean on for 13 hours straight and yes it did burn in. We ended up selling the tv for $700. So its hard as heck to burn in these tv's but yes they still will burn in. I know its pretty rare unless you have something wrong with you. The point is I have seen burn-in on a Pioneer and I look at tv's all day everyday and just today I bought the 5020 for $1800 "dont ask me how". The Kuro is a better television period. The only reason i would have bought the 6 series samsung over it was because of price, but now theres no reason. I actually got it cheaper than if i would have bought the 650. Well sorry for the lcd lovers out there but everyone in Our dept. agrees that the 5020 is a better tv than the 650, (not that it really matters because it still comes down to personal preference)

That is the reason I don't game on a plasma.

That is the reason I don't game on a plasma.

"13 hours straight and yes it did burn in"

I wouldn't be surprised if it was image retention also and would be washed away over a short period of time

Do that to your LCD and report back to us.:)

That is the reason I don't game on a plasma.In the far future when/if SED and OLED take over the display industry you might wan't to keep an LCD in the closet just to game on. Self emitting displays (OLED, SED, PDP, CRT...etc) will always have the ability to burn-in unless they find a way to make a phosphor or emitting material not age....ever! All the people who complain and whine about having to baby a PDP are going to be very upset if OLED and SED become ubiquitous and push out LCD :(

Alternatively, you might want to seek help to overcome your burn in phobia ;)

In the far future when/if SED and OLED take over the display industry you might wan't to keep an LCD in the closet just to game on. Self emitting displays (OLED, SED, PDP, CRT...etc) will always have the ability to burn-in unless they find a way to make a phosphor or emitting material not age....ever! All the people who complain and whine about having to baby a PDP are going to be very upset if OLED and SED become ubiquitous and push out LCD :(

Alternatively, you might want to seek help to overcome your burn in phobia ;)

Agree, that is why I have two technologies today. LCD and Plasma.:)

13 hours seems like an awfully short amount of time for true burn-in to appear on a modern plasma.

I've left black bars on my screen for many, many hours and didn't even get a hint of IR.

If you refuse to game on a modern PDP because of it, you're silly.

Hey guys I have worked at Best Buy (in HT) for about 8 months now and I have seen Burn-in on a pioneer 5010. A couple of our retarded employees worked one day and left a menu screen for pirates of the caribbean on for 13 hours straight and yes it did burn in. We ended up selling the tv for $700. So its hard as heck to burn in these tv's but yes they still will burn in. I know its pretty rare unless you have something wrong with you. The point is I have seen burn-in on a Pioneer and I look at tv's all day everyday and just today I bought the 5020 for $1800 "dont ask me how". The Kuro is a better television period. The only reason i would have bought the 6 series samsung over it was because of price, but now theres no reason. I actually got it cheaper than if i would have bought the 650. Well sorry for the lcd lovers out there but everyone in Our dept. agrees that the 5020 is a better tv than the 650, (not that it really matters because it still comes down to personal preference)

13 hours will not give burn in on a 5010.
what you saw was image retention. Which clears up after watching for a little while.
I am sure there was a happy customer that was glad that you guys didn't know the difference.;)

Even Analog TV's w/PIP require a 2nd seperate independent tuner to operate.....The 5010 just happens to have one digital and the ability to attach a second seperate independent ANALOG tuner.....

Even Analog TV's w/PIP require a 2nd seperate independent tuner to operate
Well, not if they have dual tuners. ;)

The 5010 just happens to have one digital and the ability to attach a second seperate independent .....ANALOG tuner..
Ok, I guess that's why the 5010 has 2 RF inputs.

Well, not if they have dual tuners. ;)


Ok, I guess that's why the 5010 has 2 RF inputs.
More accurately, PIP allows watching 2 games,movies, whatever because it allows for a 2nd (independent, seperate) tuner to be connected. I suspect Pioneer was anticipating the cutover from analog to digital so they allowed for both (good planning if it was)! Believe me, once my TV's tuner issue is (hopefully) resolved I will be the 1st one to connect the D/A converter on ANT-B to regain the PIP capability, hopefully before football season!

More accurately, PIP allows watching 2 games,movies, whatever because it allows for a 2nd (independent, seperate) tuner to be connected.
Uhh, yeah, that's what I've been saying. ;) But with true dual-tuner PiP, you don't need the 2nd external tuner source.


I suspect Pioneer was anticipating the cutover from analog to digital so they allowed for both (good planning if it was)! Believe me, once my TV's tuner issue is (hopefully) resolved I will be the 1st one to connect the D/A converter on ANT-B to regain the PIP capability, hopefully before football season!
I think it would have been better if they made both tuners (if it indeed has two separate tuners), a ATSC/NTSC/QAM (like the 742/747 Olevia) because then you wouldn't need a converter box. But if the Pioneer remote is able to control the DtoA converter box, it shouldn't make that much of a difference.

Uhh, yeah, that's what I've been saying. ;) But with true dual-tuner PiP, you don't need the 2nd external tuner source.



I think it would have been better if they made both tuners (if it indeed has two separate tuners), a ATSC/NTSC/QAM (like the 742/747 Olevia) because then you wouldn't need a converter box. But if the Pioneer remote is able to control the DtoA converter box, it shouldn't make that much of a difference.
Sadly the remote doesn't allow for the D/A box, nor does it have a "learning" capability, a shame really. My receiver does have remote "learning". However, my (RCA) D/A box can program in your TV's code so you can use the (RCA) remote for both TV and D/A box.

FYI - On a side note the 5010 remote capabilities for the satellite are limited! Even though the remote has buttons to "page up/down" the onscreen programming schedule, they DO NOT WORK! Neither does the "INFO" button to describe the selected show. Seems like a real waste if the buttons are there (why not be able to use them)?

[QUOTE=Clint S.;16091443]Uhh, yeah, that's what I've been saying. ;) But with true dual-tuner PiP, you don't need the 2nd external tuner source.

I'm sure we're saying the same thing, differently is all! Even my analog 32" SONY Trintron with PIP capability, required an additional (external, seperate etc) tuner (usually the vcr) for PIP to work. And yes, I agree a 2nd builtin tuner woulda been nice, but probably cost prohibitive. Maybe once prices bottom out you'll see builtin dual digital tuners....and with any luck, a fully functional satellite remote! (as long we're making wish lists)!

13 hours will not give burn in on a 5010.
what you saw was image retention. Which clears up after watching for a little while.
I am sure there was a happy customer that was glad that you guys didn't know the difference.;)

Either that or it was the 10th time someone left it on the Pirates menu overnight. That's why I'd fear retail display tv's. For all you know it might have spent 25% of its powered on life displaying the same DVD menu.

Hey guys,

I may purchase a new HDTV in the next few days, and I need a little help on my decision from someone that knows a lot more about HDTV's than I do. First off let me say that I've been reading posts for quite some time on this forum as well as other forums, so I am aware of a lot of the opinions concerning Plasma verses LCD verses DLP. I now have it narrowed down to Three possible tv's. The Samsung HL61A750 DLP the Samsung LN52A650 LCD and the Pioneer Kuro 5020 Plasma. The tv will be in a basement inviroment, sometimes with a lot of overhead lighting, but mostly with lights off. the viewing angle will be mostly straight on, and the TV will be used about 65% for X-box 360 gaming,first person shooters, and 35% for movies/TV viewing. I've always played on a crt so i've never been bothered by motion blur, or I've just never noticed it. I'm a responsible adult so I don't believe the IR issue with the plasma would be a big issue, however due to the fact that I mostly game on this tv, it would be hard not to game some before a 100 hour break in period. The LCD sounds good for gaming, but you hear a lot of negative comments about motion lag, and AMP being an issue. The DLP is the best bang for the buck, but i'm not sure about the gaming quality compared to the other two tv's. My budget is $2000 or less so to get the Pioneer 5020 I would have to get an Amazon warehouse deal unit that states the housing has a minor defect, and this kinda scares me a little because whats minor to one person ( warehouse worker ) may be major to another ( Me ). Any advice or thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Sadly the remote doesn't allow for the D/A box, nor does it have a "learning" capability, a shame really. My receiver does have remote "learning". However, my (RCA) D/A box can program in your TV's code so you can use the (RCA) remote for both TV and D/A box.

FYI - On a side note the 5010 remote capabilities for the satellite are limited! Even though the remote has buttons to "page up/down" the onscreen programming schedule, they DO NOT WORK! Neither does the "INFO" button to describe the selected show. Seems like a real waste if the buttons are there (why not be able to use them)?
See if you can find a URC-8910 or 9910. I use a URC-9910 (or 9911 in some markets). It will control anything. Of course the morons at OFA stopped making all of their best remotes such as this one, along with the URC-8910. I searched for months and couldn't find one, then I lucked out and found someone at Hi Fi Remotes forum that had a brand new 9910. They are expensive, but worth it. The 99xx has RF capability which I didn't need, so it costs even more. The 8910 is the same, but it doesn't have the RF transceiver.

The only reason I wanted one is because these are the only remotes with commercial skip, and I (apparently) had the only TV ever made with commercial skip, and I HAD to get something to replace it on my new HDTV. So that remote was the closest thing to my original commercial skip.

I found out that any key on them can be programmed to do anything a previous remote did. That's an awesome feature.

Hey guys,

I may purchase a new HDTV in the next few days, and I need a little help on my decision from someone that knows a lot more about HDTV's than I do. First off let me say that I've been reading posts for quite some time on this forum as well as other forums, so I am aware of a lot of the opinions concerning Plasma verses LCD verses DLP. I now have it narrowed down to Three possible tv's. The Samsung HL61A750 DLP the Samsung LN52A650 LCD and the Pioneer Kuro 5020 Plasma. The tv will be in a basement inviroment, sometimes with a lot of overhead lighting, but mostly with lights off. the viewing angle will be mostly straight on, and the TV will be used about 65% for X-box 360 gaming,first person shooters, and 35% for movies/TV viewing. I've always played on a crt so i've never been bothered by motion blur, or I've just never noticed it. I'm a responsible adult so I don't believe the IR issue with the plasma would be a big issue, however due to the fact that I mostly game on this tv, it would be hard not to game some before a 100 hour break in period. The LCD sounds good for gaming, but you hear a lot of negative comments about motion lag, and AMP being an issue. The DLP is the best bang for the buck, but i'm not sure about the gaming quality compared to the other two tv's. My budget is $2000 or less so to get the Pioneer 5020 I would have to get an Amazon warehouse deal unit that states the housing has a minor defect, and this kinda scares me a little because whats minor to one person ( warehouse worker ) may be major to another ( Me ). Any advice or thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
The last time I checked you could get a new 5020 for less than $2000.

IR and BI is no more of a concern with a 5020 than that of the Samsung LCD. I don't know about DLP with that issue, but I don't know of a DLP (or LCD) that can equal the PQ of the Kuro. Lights are an issue, from what I've heard in a bright environment the Kuro won't do so good. But I had mine in a huge room, with nothing but windows, it still looked perfect during the day.

The last time I checked you could get a new 5020 for less than $2000.

IR and BI is no more of a concern with a 5020 than that of the Samsung LCD. I don't know about DLP with that issue, but I don't know of a DLP (or LCD) that can equal the PQ of the Kuro. Lights are an issue, from what I've heard in a bright environment the Kuro won't do so good. But I had mine in a huge room, with nothing but windows, it still looked perfect during the day.

I notice some IR on my 5020 the other night.

The last time I checked you could get a new 5020 for less than $2000.



Unfortunately the only place that I can find a 5020 for less than $2000 is the Amazon warehouse deals, and I'm a little skittish of a slightly damaged unit. Like I said before minor cosmetic damage to one person may be major to another ......... Thanks for the reply.

Randy

Unfortunately the only place that I can find a 5020 for less than $2000 is the Amazon warehouse deals, and I'm a little skittish of a slightly damaged unit. Like I said before minor cosmetic damage to one person may be major to another ......... Thanks for the reply.

Randy

Are you a member of Costco? I believe they have the 5020 in that range you want it.

I think anyone of the above choices you listed would serve your means in a different way.

Auditor, you saw image retention on your 5020? I'd be interested to know what you were watching and for how long. I went straight into watching whatever I wanted after getting my 5020, not bothering with break in or even full screen images constantly, and haven't seen any evidence of IR.

And mine has been used 8+ hours a day for videogames, blu ray, tv watching, etc...

Auditor, you saw image retention on your 5020? I'd be interested to know what you were watching and for how long. I went straight into watching whatever I wanted after getting my 5020, not bothering with break in or even full screen images constantly, and haven't seen any evidence of IR.

And mine has been used 8+ hours a day for videogames, blu ray, tv watching, etc...

I had been watching a 2:35 AR film and I could see reminants of the black bars ever so slight.

Fair enough. I guess some sets are more sensitive than others? I don't really know what to say because I haven't seen any IR and I've watched a large number of movies recorded in the more "cinematic" format.

I notice some IR on my 5020 the other night.How are your contrast and brightness settings?

Unfortunately the only place that I can find a 5020 for less than $2000 is the Amazon warehouse deals, and I'm a little skittish of a slightly damaged unit. Like I said before minor cosmetic damage to one person may be major to another ......... Thanks for the reply.

Randy
PM sent.

I notice some IR on my 5020 the other night.
Many have had success running the break-in images again, and the Video Pattern feature. You should run that regularly. See page 53 of the manual.

Many have had success running the break-in images again, and the Video Pattern feature. You should run that regularly. See page 53 of the manual.


Also, just watching a lot of 19:9 material without any static images (TV or video) for an extended period should do the trick.

I notice some IR on my 5020 the other night.

How about posting some pictures of your IR so that we can see what you're talking about. :)

Also, just watching a lot of 19:9 material without any static images (TV or video) for an extended period should do the trick.
(Typo, 16:9), Yeah that can help, but the Video Pattern is probably better since it's made for that. Also, if you run the break-in images again, be sure to use the break-in settings.