I have a fairly large HT / basement that is about 17' wide x 37' long x 8' high. IN addition there is a hallway that leads to 3 more bedrooms in the basement + a stairway. Total about 6,000 cubic feet. I have a Velodyne F1800RII sub that I have had for 12 years that still works great. I listen to alot of DVD / Blu Ray concerts at Concert levels and I love lots of clean, deep powerful bass.

I plan on buying a used Fathom or DD18. I am leaning towards the Velodyne, as I am very happy with their products and just thinking of physics alone i think an 18" driver is able to move alot more air than a 13.5" driver.

I have the same JL driver that is used in the Fathom in my mercedes! It is a 13w7 and cost about $1200 just for the driver. It sounds amazing in the car but I am not quite sure if it would suffice for my larger room. I also like the velodyne auto eq system and the ability to daisy chain the 2 subs together.
I know there was a thread 2 years ago about the JL 112 vs DD18 and I read that.

Prices for each used are about $300 apart (JL is more expensive).

suggestions???

If you could stretch your budget I'd get a Submersive from Seaton Sound, but that's just me :).

There are two factors that determine how much air a driver can move: It's square inch area and it's maximum linear excursion. It's much like how you determine the displacement of a cylinder in an engine: bore and stroke. In this case, the 13.5" driver in the Fathom due to it's excursion capabilty can displace more air than the 18" driver in the Velodyne.

Yes, this comparison has been made many times in the past. I think most preferred the JL.

If you could stretch your budget I'd get a Submersive from Seaton Sound, but that's just me :).

Why do assume that would stretch his budget? His budget wasn't mentioned.

mojomike is right. In this case, the JL moves more air, in fact, a lot more due to its huge excursion (isn't technology great?). The JL has a lot more output down low compared to the DD18.

In today's standards, the DD18 is overpriced at $5000. Many ID offerings above $1000 can easily beat the DD18 in output with almost as good sound quality. You can look at the SVS PB13. For $1600, it will give you more HT impact (more output), fill a room better, and sound as musical as a DD18 and F113.

BTW, a DD18, your F1800, nor the f113 can fill your 6000 cubic feet room. Not even a PB13 can. In your room, you need at least 2 PB13 or f113.

mojomike is right. In this case, the JL moves more air, in fact, a lot more due to its huge excursion (isn't technology great?). The JL has a lot more output down low compared to the DD18.

In today's standards, the DD18 is overpriced at $5000. Many ID offerings above $1000 can easily beat the DD18 in output with almost as good sound quality. You can look at the SVS PB13. For $1600, it will give you more HT impact (more output), fill a room better, and sound as musical as a DD18 and F113.

BTW, a DD18, your F1800, nor the f113 can fill your 6000 cubic feet room. Not even a PB13 can. In your room, you need at least 2 PB13 or f113.


thanks for the fast responses guys! Just for clarification I will still be using the F1800 in addition to whatever I end up getting, so 2 subs should be pretty good in my space I think... The JL is about $2300 used and the DD18 about $2100.
I am most interested in whatever combo will be able to reproduce the very low frequencies with greatest impact for home theater - you know the low bone chilling vibrating bass!!
thanks and keep the recommendations coming! I am all ears! :D

If your looking for very impactful, powerful, I would be thinking pretty hard at working on Dual subs in that size room....

The JL subs are extremely powerful with their heavy long throw overhung motors and very linear measurments. They are extremely tight and controlled which offers that definition when looking for detail in both music and movies. They are the next evolution of motor technology, where the Velo's are kinda yesterdays news.. Powerful but not as accurate, they do slam though, I was impressed. But its getting better. There are newer sealed designes coming out from SVS that I'll put big money will likely exede JL's performance with a larger driver to boot and probably their EQ built in.

BTW running dual different subs could make the SQ muddy.... you should try to match your subs...

I have a F112 in my arsenal/sub collection, its an amazing performing sub, small, articulate - astonishing really...... That have set my mark for SQ.

SVS Ultra13's are great as well...

I would seriously do your homework on Dual Submersives in that large room... My room is even 1/3 larger yet, and my 3rd 18" Maelstrom will be here tomorrow, so I have to get to work. I went DIY, it has been extremely rewarding, SQ has been way above expectations, I could even see adding a 4th, but I'm sorta goofy that way.... but its all cost less then 2 F112's

That'll scare the hell out of your friends, and give you a smile on your face that doesn't go away..... :D

does the submersive contain a built in amp? where do I get more info on this? Seems like they do not have a website which is kind of weird (at least I could not find it).

The submersive is a sealed sub with a built-in 1000 watt amp and two 15" drivers. The only website right now is a discussion forum:
http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/mb/seatonsound

Funny..... looks like its a good time to buy....
http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/seatonsound/vpost?id=3219743

thanks for the fast responses guys! Just for clarification I will still be using the F1800 in addition to whatever I end up getting, so 2 subs should be pretty good in my space I think... The JL is about $2300 used and the DD18 about $2100.
I am most interested in whatever combo will be able to reproduce the very low frequencies with greatest impact for home theater - you know the low bone chilling vibrating bass!!
thanks and keep the recommendations coming! I am all ears! :D

If you want your bone chilling bass, I suggest you to sell your current sub and get 2 PB13s. They will definitely give you the bass you want that no number of (you need insane numbers) DD18 can give

Yes, I am big fan of Velodyne products but sadly they have been left in the dust as far as performance for the dollar.

Their products were very innovative with the servo technology and integrated EQ, as well as performance in a small package.

That was all fine when that level of performance was king, ala the mighty HGS-18 which was the benchmark for years in SQ and output.

However, driver development has been ramped up several notches and has left the mighty Velos in the dust. They are now overpriced under-performing when compared to offerings like that of JL, and direct market model from SVS, HSU etc. I was after a DD-18 when I realized for the price of one I could build something that had the performance of 4 for the less money. Don't get me wrong the DD is a damn fine product, but IMO not worth more than $2500.

They really need to find a way to double the excursion on their DD series along with a reduction in price. I really thought there would be a DD v2 by now that would be a considerable jump in performance. I have no idea what their sales/market share is but it has to have diminished at least slightly despite the fact the the custom installer/ dealer network market favors them.

It willl be interesting to see what they have up their sleeves for '09. They are simply too innovative and well managed.

If you wanted to consider the Velodyne, I would go the used route. When I was looking I was able to find plenty of DD-18s for under $2500 and sometimes as low as $2200. For that price they offer good bang for the buck. Check audiogon and ebay as well.

$2200 for DD18's performance still can't really be called bang for the buck. The HT performance is not on par with even $1000 subs.

$2200 for DD18's performance still can't really be called bang for the buck. The HT performance is not on par with even $1000 subs.

I dunno, the DDs have very low THD, small cabinets and a $500 built in eq that no other manufacture comes close to, including JL. The DD is no slouch in SPL either. Can it be beaten, sure but with something that has the fit and finish, and technology of the DD...for $2200 is reasonably competitive.

It is difficult to compare a dealer marketed product with a direct marketed offering. The JL is dealer marketed as well, hence the $5,000 msrp.

I dunno, the DDs have very low THD, small cabinets and a $500 built in eq that no other manufacture comes close to, including JL. The DD is no slouch in SPL either. Can it be beaten, sure but with something that has the fit and finish, and technology of the DD...for $2200 is reasonably competitive.

It is difficult to compare a dealer marketed product with a direct marketed offering. The JL is dealer marketed as well, hence the $5,000 msrp.

From Craig's ground plane results, the DD18 produced a (gasp) 95dB @ 20Hz @ 2M. Yes, the distortion is low, but the output is so low.

For sake of comparison, the JL f113 produced 101dB (equivalent to 2 DD18 at that frequency). The PB13 produced 108dB (equivalent to 4 DD18 at that frequency)

Something good for the DD18, the upper frequencies are pretty loud (20-63Hz average is 109dB). But still, the output performance does not look good even for a 18'', $2200 sub.

BTW, the f113 produced 112.5dB from 20-63Hz average, the PB13 produced 113.5dB.

From Craig's ground plane results, the DD18 produced a (gasp) 95dB @ 20Hz @ 2M. Yes, the distortion is low, but the output is so low.

For sake of comparison, the JL f113 produced 101dB (equivalent to 2 DD18 at that frequency). The PB13 produced 108dB (equivalent to 4 DD18 at that frequency)

But, the JL gives you a single band auto eq where the DD's is much more advanced and flexible. You can choose how much distortion you want with the DD's servo as well. So, everything is relative. Pure output isn't the end all be all, there are other things at play to some who want premium sound.

Would I rather have the JL, probably, but I would still need the SMS-1 for my room so....

Look at it this way: PB13 (new) $1600 + SMS-1 (new) $600 = $2200
vs. DD18 (used) $2200.

Look at it this way: PB13 (new) $1600 + SMS-1 (new) $600 = $2200
vs. DD18 (used) $2200.

:rolleyes: Too may apples to oranges to really comment there. Not an option in this thread...

But, the JL gives you a single band auto eq where the DD's is much more advanced and flexible. You can choose how much distortion you want with the DD's servo as well. So, everything is relative. Pure output isn't the end all be all, there are other things at play to some who want premium sound.

Yes, EQ is important, but no amount of room correction can compensate for the lack of output the OP is looking for.

Remember, the OP is looking for serious output, and I don't think the DD18 nor the f113 is very good at that, especially in his large 6000 cubic feet room.

No amount of room correction can compensate for the lack of output the OP is looking for. Remember, the OP is looking for serious output, and I don't think the DD18 nor the f113 is very good at that, especially in his large 6000 cubic feet room.

You probably have a good point there. I depends largely on desired listening levels. Neither would cut it for mine I know that. He would need multiples of either. I hope he has plenty of moola!

wow, thanks for all the replies! You guys have opened my eyes a bit and I am now leaning toward the JL! I would still plan on using it in conjunction with my old velodyne for right now, and would eventually get a second JL if I deemed it was necessary... decisions decisions...

The problem is that I had 2 dealers in town that closed their doors recently so I have no place to audition it! I know what the 13.5 driver can do in a car, but not sure how it would sound in my home theater...

If you plan to buy the fathom, try giving Mark Seaton a call (his contact info is at the forum you found earlier), at the very least he will give you some great info, very few know subs like he does.

wow, thanks for all the replies! You guys have opened my eyes a bit and I am now leaning toward the JL! I would still plan on using it in conjunction with my old velodyne for right now, and would eventually get a second JL if I deemed it was necessary... decisions decisions...

The problem is that I had 2 dealers in town that closed their doors recently so I have no place to audition it! I know what the 13.5 driver can do in a car, but not sure how it would sound in my home theater...

The driver in the HT sub has been modified somewhat as well. When I was pricing them, I was seeing street prices like <$3000. However, that was before some of the dealers knew what they had.

wow, thanks for all the replies! You guys have opened my eyes a bit and I am now leaning toward the JL! I would still plan on using it in conjunction with my old velodyne for right now, and would eventually get a second JL if I deemed it was necessary... decisions decisions...

The problem is that I had 2 dealers in town that closed their doors recently so I have no place to audition it! I know what the 13.5 driver can do in a car, but not sure how it would sound in my home theater...

Not trying to confuse you but there is no shortage of opinions here and the anecdotal information flows freely:rolleyes:.

I have owned DD18’s and F113’s and even compared them at the same time A/B. The actual differences are not as great as some of the posters would lead you to believe and the built-in EQ of the DD’s is much more effective than JL’s single band ARO. I like both of these options but for different reasons. The main reason I went with JL was the smaller form factor as I was trying to fit two of them into a multiuse space. Had space not been an issue, I would have stayed with the Velodyne DD-18 as the audible differences made it a too close to call decision.

BTW and FWIW, I heard the PB13 (duals) in my room when I had the Fathom (dual F113’s) and in that A/B test most who heard them agreed (even the PB13 owners) that the F113 had better SQ and if price were no issue, slightly preferred the Fathom(s). YMMV;)

RMK, even though the DD18 and the f113 may not sound that different from each other, how can you ignore the fact that a single f113 can put out as much bass at 20hz as two DD18's and 3.5 db more than one DD18 overall. Don't you think this would be a very significant difference in HT performance especially in a big room?



From Craig's ground plane results, the DD18 produced a (gasp) 95dB @ 20Hz @ 2M. Yes, the distortion is low, but the output is so low.

For sake of comparison, the JL f113 produced 101dB (equivalent to 2 DD18 at that frequency). The PB13 produced 108dB (equivalent to 4 DD18 at that frequency)

Something good for the DD18, the upper frequencies are pretty loud (20-63Hz average is 109dB). But still, the output performance does not look good even for a 18'', $2200 sub.

BTW, the f113 produced 112.5dB from 20-63Hz average, the PB13 produced 113.5dB.

Maybe, but you also have to factor in what he needs. That is groundplane outdoor testing. So, if model A puts out 250db @ 20Hz and model B puts out 105db at 20Hz but you only need 100 at your listening position it is not much use to have the 2000 times more output.

I am assuming that the extra ouput would matter but everyone has different preferences for listening volumes.

I have owned DD18’s and F113’s and even compared them at the same time A/B. The actual differences are not as great as some of the posters would lead you to believe and the built-in EQ of the DD’s is much more effective than JL’s single band ARO.
BTW and FWIW, I heard the PB13 (duals) in my room when I had the Fathom (dual F113’s) and in that A/B test most who heard them agreed (even the PB13 owners) that the F113 had better SQ and if price were no issue, slightly preferred the Fathom(s). YMMV;)

Thanks for some REAL info. I have heard both as well but not at the same time.

Another thing that can come into play is THD and harmonics. The DD is much more distortion limited especially at the lower freqs. Listeners often prefer the added distortion as it gives a "fuller" sound especially in action movies.

Maybe, but you also have to factor in what he needs. That is groundplane outdoor testing. So, if model A puts out 250db @ 20Hz and model B puts out 105db at 20Hz but you only need 100 at your listening position it is not much use to have the 2000 times more output.

I am assuming that the extra ouput would matter but everyone has different preferences for listening volumes.

In this case I'm taking into account the way the original poster described his room: "I have a fairly large HT / basement that is about 17' wide x 37' long x 8' high. IN addition there is a hallway that leads to 3 more bedrooms in the basement + a stairway. Total about 6,000 cubic feet."

It sounds a bit like my room. He's going to need all the output he can get.

In this case I'm taking into account the way the original poster described his room: "I have a fairly large HT / basement that is about 17' wide x 37' long x 8' high. IN addition there is a hallway that leads to 3 more bedrooms in the basement + a stairway. Total about 6,000 cubic feet."

It sounds a bit like my room. He's going to need all the output he can get.

I am certainly not disagreeing with you there. But, the in room response should be a bit greater and he may not listen at the levels that I do.:o That's why it is tough to recommend things based solely on output. So many variables can come into play, like aesthitics and EQ and etc. etc. I have visited friends houses that have huge family rooms and are using a $400 HTiB crap system or worse, the dreaded Bose cubes and are perfectly happy with them. So, it is all relative I suppose.

The OP said that he is looking for the sub with the most powerful bass, and that's why I recommended him the PB13 because it will give the most powerful bass that the OP is looking for.


thanks for the fast responses guys! Just for clarification I will still be using the F1800 in addition to whatever I end up getting, so 2 subs should be pretty good in my space I think... The JL is about $2300 used and the DD18 about $2100.
I am most interested in whatever combo will be able to reproduce the very low frequencies with greatest impact for home theater - you know the low bone chilling vibrating bass!!
thanks and keep the recommendations coming! I am all ears! :D

Well, if there are other options available and the highest SQ isn't really a strict requirement, then I would lean towards multiples of the PB13 as well. If he went used he could get them at an almost 2 for 1 ratio. I have not heard the DD and JL and PB13 in the same room for comparison, but the JL and DD will have an edge in SQ, at least to my ears.

I prefer the sound of the sealed units, but if mucho SPL is needed, ported would yield better low end SPL.

RMK, even though the DD18 and the f113 may not sound that different from each other, how can you ignore the fact that a single f113 can put out as much bass at 20hz as two DD18's and 3.5 db more than one DD18 overall. Don't you think this would be a very significant difference in HT performance especially in a big room?

When I did my side by side (DD18 vs F113) it was in a room that was 6000+cf plus large openings to other larger spaces. Despite the numbers you quote, the performance delta was very small. Same with the F113 and the PB13.

When I did my side by side (DD18 vs F113) it was in a room that was 6000+cf plus large openings to other larger spaces. Despite the numbers you quote, the performance delta was very small. Same with the F113 and the PB13.

I can understand that when the subs are compared when set to play at the same levels, but did you measure and compare the maximum output capability of each sub in the same room?

I just bought s f113 for my HT 20x25x9 had them about 2 weeks now. they are great I am impressed, I also like the small size freinds don't expect to get hit with the shock wave they do out of something that small.

Before I had a 15" velodyne and it would not fill the room, concreat floors also didn't help. Like you I went to buy a couple DD18 but once I started looking and listening other than the eq in the DD18 there was no advantage the JL 113 was just tigher and better, but like stated above not a huge difference. Also the fact that you can link them together is a nice feature. So far I am very happy with my decision.

RMK, even though the DD18 and the f113 may not sound that different from each other, how can you ignore the fact that a single f113 can put out as much bass at 20hz as two DD18's and 3.5 db more than one DD18 overall. Don't you think this would be a very significant difference in HT performance especially in a big room?

yep, that is definitely a big plus in my eyes! As I mentioned I have pretty much the same driver in my Mercedes ML truck and it sounds absolutely amazing in there as well....

if you could stretch your budget i'd get a submersive from seaton sound, but that's just me :).

+1

well fyi I just ordered a brand new JL fathom 113 for my HT! I can't wait for it to get here and I will report back with a solid review!

The Velodyne SMS is the steal of HT. I have 4 SVS subs and two (used) SMS's. Find one (used) to use with your JL Fathom 113 and you won't be sorry!

I placed an order for a dd-18, should have it next week, thursday likely.

Let's also not underestimate the role of your local dealer in all this.

I tried for over two months to find a dealer that would not only sell me an F113 but that would let me demo one in my home, all to no avail (all my local dealers at that time were home theater installers who had little or no interest in selling me just a sub, and the one dealer who was willing to sell me one "doesn't do" home equipment demos and would not allow me to return a purchased unit without a restocking fee.) There were also dropped contacts from someone at JL Audio about finding someone to work with me. To be fair, I suppose if you're selling all you make anyway, it's not really all that important to help out someone who wants to demo one.

Instead, I went to my local Velodyne dealer, who though they didn't stock DD-18s, was more than happy to order me a new one and of course was also willing to give me a full refund if I didn't like it.

Add the invaluable support given by Curt on the Velodyne thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=304306), and the fact the DD-18 effectively has an SMS-1 built-in, and I've been completely thrilled with my purchase.

well fyi I just ordered a brand new JL fathom 113 for my HT! I can't wait for it to get here and I will report back with a solid review!

I placed an order for a dd-18, should have it next week, thursday likely.

Great choices and I'm sure both of you will be very happy with the excellent engineering and build quality of your new subs.

Let's also not underestimate the role of your local dealer in all this.

I tried for over two months to find a dealer that would not only sell me an F113 but that would let me demo one in my home, all to no avail (all my local dealers at that time were home theater installers who had little or no interest in selling me just a sub, and the one dealer who was willing to sell me one "doesn't do" home equipment demos and would not allow me to return a purchased unit without a restocking fee.) There were also dropped contacts from someone at JL Audio about finding someone to work with me. To be fair, I suppose if you're selling all you make anyway, it's not really all that important to help out someone who wants to demo one.

Instead, I went to my local Velodyne dealer, who though they didn't stock DD-18s, was more than happy to order me a new one and of course was also willing to give me a full refund if I didn't like it.

Add the invaluable support given by Curt on the Velodyne thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=304306), and the fact the DD-18 effectively has an SMS-1 built-in, and I've been completely thrilled with my purchase.

Very good points here. Velodyne has a "mature" Home Threater dealer channel and JL has an evolving one. Again, both are excellent products.

Sorry, my local dealer went out of business! After a bit of tweaking with my Theata Processor, the F113 is simply fabulous! It is actually alot of output in my rather large room! It plays extemely low and seems to have alot of depth... I like it so mucht that I ordered a second one which should be here in 3 days! Can't wait! Do I need it, probably not, (a sane person's answer would be "hell no are you insane"???) but I just have to have it as I looove lots of good clean gutwrenching bass! I am very impressed with the sub so far and I think it is tough to beat for sound quality, speed, and output (even though I have not done any tests).

gordon


Let's also not underestimate the role of your local dealer in all this.

I tried for over two months to find a dealer that would not only sell me an F113 but that would let me demo one in my home, all to no avail (all my local dealers at that time were home theater installers who had little or no interest in selling me just a sub, and the one dealer who was willing to sell me one "doesn't do" home equipment demos and would not allow me to return a purchased unit without a restocking fee.) There were also dropped contacts from someone at JL Audio about finding someone to work with me. To be fair, I suppose if you're selling all you make anyway, it's not really all that important to help out someone who wants to demo one.

Instead, I went to my local Velodyne dealer, who though they didn't stock DD-18s, was more than happy to order me a new one and of course was also willing to give me a full refund if I didn't like it.

Add the invaluable support given by Curt on the Velodyne thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=304306), and the fact the DD-18 effectively has an SMS-1 built-in, and I've been completely thrilled with my purchase.