Ok I have mutiple questions so I will just sort of throw everything here in this thread to keep the clutter to a minumum. For what it is worth, I do try to do a ton of research on my own before asking questions but some of this stuff has been hard to pin down even upon wording the search multiple different ways. I feel comfortable on the video side of av but the audio is just over my head. The charts people post with the graphs is just beyond me and I would like to learn more so please be patient with me. I'm willing to do the reading and learning if people point to specific material for me to read. I'm not looking for the easy way out, just a shove in the right direction. There seems to be some VERY knwledgeable people on this board and I have been living and breathing here lately. So to start off I will follow the sticky to a T for my sub recommendation part to help out the experts here.

1. My Budget:

I figure I want to run dual subs. I will put my budget at about 3500 to 4000. This is what I would prefer to be at but if someone knows something that would be absolutely better for say another 1000 I'm not against that. So lets put the cap on my budget at about 5000 to 5500.

2. Size requirements/limit:

Anything goes. I have plenty of room and have no problem with a big box. I live alone with my dogs so appearence is fine by me and only me.

3. Room dimensions:

I have a large vaulted ceiling living room that has an opening to the kitchen, and at the back of the living room there is 2 different opening that lead to a hallway that T-intersections together. It is a large space. 4830 cubic feet of living room. The opening to the kitchen opens up to about 1250 cubic feet of space. There will be pictures at the end of my post to give you an idea of the layout better.

4. Primary uses:

Though I may throw in a cd from time to time for this purposes I don't care about the music ability at all. Whatever music sounds like will be fine. I am a gamer but I'm not worried about that either. So for the purposes of the uses, 100% geared towards tv and movies. Whatever the other areas happen to be will be fine with me.

5. Listening habits:

I like to crank it up on sports and movie viewing. Maybe not quite reference level but I don't have quality enough audio yet to really push my system without it sounding poorly. I definitely like it at high levels though, but couldn't provide you any SPL levels. Lets say slightly below reference.

6. Appearence requirements:

As long as I can get it in a nice wood finish like a rosenut or something, anything goes.

7. Timeframe:

Nothing immediate. Probably spring of 2010. I know you can't recommend products that aren't even out yet but I am in the learning phase and trying to get a head start. I'm definitely willing to wait and in no hurry.

Ok that takes care of the sticky. Basically just to give an idea of what I have been looking at. I have been looking at the ULS-15 and also the PB-13Ultra. I was following the SVS thread that also mentioned a future sealed Ultra. Considering I have to wait for a bit anyway that will be something I will follow along with the possible next year stuff from HSU. Any sub in this catergory will be a big step up for me. I only have a Paradigm 3100 right now. Yes I know it is blashpemy but honestly this is my first sub and going from no sub to this sub has been pleasurable. But now I want more, and much more. The bug has hit me. I have my "perfect" display in my 60 inch Kuro Elite and I have a new capable receiver in my Yamaha 3900. Now I need speakers and subs and even though it may be backwards, I'm going to do the subs first.

Speaking of SVS and HSU. No I'm not starting a debate about the companies. What I do want to know is what are the primary differences between ported and sealed for HT application? Everytime I do any type of search all I get is car audio forums. Can someone explain or point me to an area that would break down ported and sealed subs for HT?

While we are also on HT application I have another question which may be dumb but since I live in a log cabin will having all that wood dampen or lessen my bass? Will it suck it out or not be any different than drywall or anything else? I know I have a large room and there is some openings but I will just have to deal with that the way it is. My living room can only be set up this way and I won't change that. Just have to work with it. Also I read that having my main seating position in the middle of the room is bad but honestly it is the only way. It is in the middle but it is sort of off to the side. Will that help at all? It isn't dead middle.

Ok I keep seeing the AS-EQ1 listed in places. Can someone explain how the AS-EQ1 would benefit me. Once I get my subs I am going to have a highly thought of ISF calibrator to come in and calibrate my Kuro Elite. I'm holding off until I upgrade subs because the guy also does audio calibration as well.

If I go this route would that make something like the AS-EQ1 not really needed for me? Once my system is dailed in I wouldn't really need this EQ would I? I guess I just don't understand the EQ. Is this only for initial setup? or is it something that you leave hooked up and it basically self calibrates for every different source you watch? Is it doing it all the time, like on a movie to movie basis or something?I feel like such a rookie here. I tried doing a search on it but only came up with one scrap of info on SVS website and I just don't fully understand what it does for me. It seems like it is just for initial settings so if I was going to have my audio calibrated by a professional when he does my video would it be smarter for me to not purchase the EQ?

Ok guys those are basically my questions. Sorry for the long thread and thanks for anyone who takes the time to help me. I appreaciate this place a lot and the subwoofer thread seems to have the most helpful people in all of the forums I have been in with the least amount of bickering. Many different preferences but people smart enough to acknowledgequality equipment whether they own it or not. Lastly here is the pictures of my living room space.

http://i360.photobucket.com/albums/oo49/archizzy/006.jpg
http://i360.photobucket.com/albums/oo49/archizzy/005.jpg
http://i360.photobucket.com/albums/oo49/archizzy/004.jpg
http://i360.photobucket.com/albums/oo49/archizzy/003.jpg
http://i360.photobucket.com/albums/oo49/archizzy/002.jpg
http://i360.photobucket.com/albums/oo49/archizzy/001.jpg

Given your budget, I would get triple SVS PB13-Ultras or quad Hsu ULS-15s.

As far as I know the difference with sealed and ported, is that sealed is considered to provide tighter bass, which is highly preferred for music purposes.

Btw, your post is a pretty long read, most people would not take the time to read such a long post. No offense meant. I have to say you got a nice cabin and some nice huge dogs! Where are you located if you don't mind?

The differences between ported and sealed for HT are not as important as they are for music listening, IMHO. After all, what exactly does an explosion sound like?

Two SVS PB-13 Ultras and a Velodyne SMS-1 8 band parametric EQ will run you about $3,800 and should fill your space nicely. The new EQ from SVS appears to function well but is not quite as user friendly as the SMS-1.

I'm in Iowa. Yeah those are my Alaskan Malamute sled dogs. My "little girl" is 120 pounds and still growing. My boy is about 90 pounds. I know it is a long post but I thought it was better than making 5 different threads and clogging up the board.

I also forgot 2 other things I wanted to know. When I look at different sites and look at subs how do I read the "specs" I know paper specs aren't everything but like some sites gives the sustained watts, and a dynamic peak while others just say short term. I want to know how to read the "rating" Also as far as electrical goes on something like the PB13 or the HSU would a 15 amp breaker be sufficient or am I going to have to actually have 20 amp breakers? I wouldn't do anything dumb like double them up or put them on a loaded breaker but as long as they are the only thing on that breaker is a 15 amp breaker sufficient?

I'm in Iowa. Yeah those are my Alaskan Malamute sled dogs. My "little girl" is 120 pounds and still growing. My boy is about 90 pounds. I know it is a long post but I thought it was better than making 5 different threads and clogging up the board.

Well, yes it is better, in a way, some people might disagree though. :)

I imagined you lived somewhere in Alaska (because of the dogs). :D

Well, yes it is better, in a way, some people might disagree though. :)

I imagined you lived somewhere in Alaska (because of the dogs). :D

Hell it has been colder here than in Alaska lately. Last week normal temp was -34 degrees. Won't even get into windchill. We typically get colder weather than most of Alaska except for the Northern parts. Last year at the start of the Iditarod we were 30 degrees colder here where I live than up there.

Two SVS PB-13 Ultras and a Velodyne SMS-1 8 band parametric EQ will run you about $3,800 and should fill your space nicely. The new EQ from SVS appears to function well but is not quite as user friendly as the SMS-1.

I think to say the SVS EQ1 is not as user friendly is not an accurate statement.

I think I would say the SVS unit is more user friendly because it is automated. (I have read the SMS units automated EQ is marginal) It might be a better choice because is a difficult non symmetrical room with multiple subs. It takes the time and phase element into account.
It is a product that has no track record to date so it is hard to judge its effectiveness.

I would also say that if you are a tweaker the SMS-1 might be a better choice because it allows you to manually override the Auto settings.

Given your timeframe, room size and rustic decor, You're a perfect candidate for a Do-It-Yourself subwoofer system. With a little effort and some basic carpentry skills, you could accomplish you goals at half of your budget with a sub system that will outperform a commercial offering and you can design it to work with your decor. Since you have some time, you can design and assemble at your leisure as well. There's a barrel in your pics, and i bet with a few modifications, a Barrel would make for a great LLT ported subwoofer. Some of the most powerfull but large subs being built today are Sonosubs, using sonotube as the enclosure. SVS, one of the leaders in Sub design and manufacturing has several commercial offerings of cylinder subs. The tube design makes for a very inert inclosure with little 'box' added colorations. A Barrel can easily be retrofitted with sonotube for one hellofa sub. Barrels seem to fit in your decor, so give it a thought. I've been building my own subs and speakers for a while now and doubt i'll ever pay for a coomercial companies overhead or markup again. If you're willing to give it a try, myself and the guys on the DIY speaker/sub forum will be glad to help.

Given your timeframe, room size and rustic decor, You're a perfect candidate for a Do-It-Yourself subwoofer system. With a little effort and some basic carpentry skills, you could accomplish you goals at half of your budget with a sub system that will outperform a commercial offering and you can design it to work with your decor. Since you have some time, you can design and assemble at your leisure as well. There's a barrel in your pics, and i bet with a few modifications, a Barrel would make for a great LLT ported subwoofer. Some of the most powerfull but large subs being built today are Sonosubs, using sonotube as the enclosure. SVS, one of the leaders in Sub design and manufacturing has several commercial offerings of cylinder subs. The tube design makes for a very inert inclosure with little 'box' added colorations. A Barrel can easily be retrofitted with sonotube for one hellofa sub. Barrels seem to fit in your decor, so give it a thought. I've been building my own subs and speakers for a while now and doubt i'll ever pay for a coomercial companies overhead or markup again. If you're willing to give it a try, myself and the guys on the DIY speaker/sub forum will be glad to help.


I honestly think that is completely out of my league. I don't have the tools and I'm afraid I would end up butchering the job. As for the barrell, as it dries out it changes over time. The iron bandings have rivets holding them in place because it is an actual whiskey barrel from Kentucky Barrel and it has shrank over time in the last few years. I don't think that would be very practical due to the ever changing shape and shrinking. The barrels are actually quite pricey to be used for an enclosure especially if I needed 3 or 4 of them. I thank you for your suggestion but I am just going to stay commercial. It is hard enough for me as it is understanding the commercial aspect let alone the DIY. I'm not worried about big decor. It is just the dogs and I, and I have no problem with some large box commercial subs sitting around. I actually like the look of them and I have plenty of space.

Since you have the room, I would advise 4 pb ultra or even the quad uls's. These two will be perfect and in some very nice finishes.

As far as ported, since it sounds like its for movie viewing, IMO, it just doesn't matter.

I knew I had a decent sized room but I am surprised at hearing that I would probably need 4 of these type of subs. I really thought dual subs would be ok. If this is truly the case then it would definitely be the ULS-15's since you get a price break the more you buy. That is a big price difference for a guy like me comparing quad ULS and quad PB13 Ultras.

i would think that if movies are your thing, one epik conquest will blow you away (that is a long-throw 18" driver btw).

http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/images/Conquest-picture.jpg

http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/EHSRM/EMERGENCY/tornado_warning.gif

I read some of the epik thread, not all of it as that thing is huge. Call me leary but it just seems as their ship isn't run as tight as say SVS. The customer service while being good seems to be hit and miss if you can get ahold of them if you need to. They also seem to be lagging in processing orders and shipping. I'm not pointing a finger or saying they are bad, it is just that when stuff like that happens I tend to just look other places. The sub seems to be thought highly of but from what I have read the PB13 Ultra seems to be almost on par with it. I would feel more comfortable with someone like them. However by the time I am able to upgrade maybe Epik will have worked out all the kinks in the system. Like I said before this probably won't be until next year.

I still find it interesting though that for suggestions I have had a range going from 1 epic conquest, to 4 PB13's. That seems like a pretty big gap to me. It wouldn't take 4 PB13's or quad ULS subs to get what I could from a conquest. I know I am a novice but that just doesn't seem right. From other peoples testimonies and what not I find it hard to believe I wouldn't be blown away by 2 PB13 Ultras. If I actually was going to run quads I would just go ULS because of the difference in money as it is quite significant.

I knew I had a decent sized room but I am surprised at hearing that I would probably need 4 of these type of subs. I really thought dual subs would be ok. If this is truly the case then it would definitely be the ULS-15's since you get a price break the more you buy. That is a big price difference for a guy like me comparing quad ULS and quad PB13 Ultras.

Honestly, you would probably be fine with 2x of any of the following unless you are going for insane levels of bass for well under your budget...

ED A5-350
SVS PB12 or PC12 NSD
HSU VTF3-MK3
Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX
AV123 MFW-15

I still find it interesting though that for suggestions I have had a range going from 1 epic conquest, to 4 PB13's. That seems like a pretty big gap to me. It wouldn't take 4 PB13's or quad ULS subs to get what I could from a conquest. I know I am a novice but that just doesn't seem right. From other peoples testimonies and what not I find it hard to believe I wouldn't be blown away by 2 PB13 Ultras. If I actually was going to run quads I would just go ULS because of the difference in money as it is quite significant.

I honestly don't think 1 Epik Conquest = 4 PB13's. I am pretty sure the quad configuration has an advantage.

Btw there's also an advantage with going ULS-15's. Because they are wireless subwoofers. You don't need to run wires to get them up and running. I'm not entirely sure how it works though, but it relieves you of having to lay out wires for a multiple subwoofer configuration.

I honestly don't think 1 Epik Conquest = 4 PB13's. I am pretty sure the quad configuration has an advantage.

Btw there's also an advantage with going ULS-15's. Because they are wireless subwoofers. You don't need to run wires to get them up and running. I'm not entirely sure how it works though, but it relieves you of having to lay out wires for a multiple subwoofer configuration.

Yes I did consider that as a plus as well but like you I'm not entirely sure of how that works. I did read up on it some but not quite getting the entire gist of it. At this point for me I think it comes down to dual PB13's or for a $1000 more go quad ULS. 1 of these subs would probably sound very good. I don't need reference level, just a nice loud volume. However I really do want to run dual subs. I had sort of leaned towards the SVS but once again because of the price break on multiple ULS I wonder if I should do quad's for a $1000 more than dual PB13's.

I also wish someone would weigh in on my EQ question and if it is really needed for a guy like me who will have a professional dial in my system anyway.

You might wanna wait for the new ed a7-450, it's gonna be as large or larger than Conquest and with comparable driver, matte black finish (looks great), EFS cabinet instead of MDF (more rigid) and free shipping. Read about it here (http://blog.edesignaudio.com/?p=369#more-369). Two of those will probably cost as much as two ultras and give you some serious HT bass.

Yes I did consider that as a plus as well but like you I'm not entirely sure of how that works. I did read up on it some but not quite getting the entire gist of it. At this point for me I think it comes down to dual PB13's or for a $1000 more go quad ULS. 1 of these subs would probably sound very good. I don't need reference level, just a nice loud volume. However I really do want to run dual subs. I had sort of leaned towards the SVS but once again because of the price break on multiple ULS I wonder if I should do quad's for a $1000 more than dual PB13's.

I also wish someone would weigh in on my EQ question and if it is really needed for a guy like me who will have a professional dial in my system anyway.

You could try e-mailing Hsu directly about the wireless configuration of the subwoofer or multiple subwoofers, I'm sure they'd be more than willing to help. Having wireless gives you absolute freedom for placement.

For your budget, I would still go with quads, if not quads, definitely duals...unless you want to take some off of that budget and put it towards other audio/video components. Going with duals or quads will help in frequency response throughout the room...the problem with one big woofer will be freqeuncy response in multiple listening areas, I was going to end up getting one big woofer and get rid of my other woofers...glad I didn't...after careful measurements, found my back area of my seating I was getting alot less spl at certain frequencies...With that money, at least get a good set of powerful duals...like pb13 or uls.

My friend/neighbor just received his PB13 Ultra. His living room is a great room that comprises approx 4225 cubic feet. The one Ultra is very capable in that size room. I personally have owned many dual set ups (currently I have dual AV123 MFW-15's in a similar size room with a similar layout) and I was very impressed with the one Ultra. For your size room I think dual Ultra's would be incredible. Add in some EQ from either SVS's new EQ, an Anti-mode (what I have, good unit, automated calibration) and you should be in bass heaven. Even with set up being performed by an audio guru room treatments and EQ will be very helpful.

If it were me I would probably look at dual Ultra's, an Anti-mode (around ~$400) and a couple of bass traps.

My friend/neighbor just received his PB13 Ultra. His living room is a great room that comprises approx 4225 cubic feet. The one Ultra is very capable in that size room. I personally have owned many dual set ups (currently I have dual AV123 MFW-15's in a similar size room with a similar layout) and I was very impressed with the one Ultra. For your size room I think dual Ultra's would be incredible. Add in some EQ from either SVS's new EQ, an Anti-mode (what I have, good unit, automated calibration) and you should be in bass heaven. Even with set up being performed by an audio guru room treatments and EQ will be very helpful.

If it were me I would probably look at dual Ultra's, an Anti-mode (around ~$400) and a couple of bass traps.

Yeah I know I am definitely doing dual subs, not just 1 big woofer. I was only saying that because of the price break on the ULS15 if I was going to get dual PB13 Ultras that for not a crazy stretch ($1000) I could get quad ULS 15's which would be pretty cool.

Your post intruiges me though Nick. As stated I am a total novice at the audio stuff, the SPL readings, the graphs, pretty much everything everyone talks about around here so can you elaborate on exactly what is the job of an EQ. I read some scraps on SVS about the new AS-EQ1 and honestly I just don't get what is doing. Is this specifically just for a pre set up calibration like what Audyssey does on receivers or Yamahas YPAO setup? only more advanced. Meaning once you set it up, is it something that is just left at those settings or is this something that changes constantly and automatically depending on source material such as movies, games, tv? I don't see what I am gaining by getting an external EQ if I am going to have a professional who uses all of his own equipment and dials in my audio.

Yeah I know I am definitely doing dual subs, not just 1 big woofer. I was only saying that because of the price break on the ULS15 if I was going to get dual PB13 Ultras that for not a crazy stretch ($1000) I could get quad ULS 15's which would be pretty cool.

Your post intruiges me though Nick. As stated I am a total novice at the audio stuff, the SPL readings, the graphs, pretty much everything everyone talks about around here so can you elaborate on exactly what is the job of an EQ. I read some scraps on SVS about the new AS-EQ1 and honestly I just don't get what is doing. Is this specifically just for a pre set up calibration like what Audyssey does on receivers or Yamahas YPAO setup? only more advanced. Meaning once you set it up, is it something that is just left at those settings or is this something that changes constantly and automatically depending on source material such as movies, games, tv? I don't see what I am gaining by getting an external EQ if I am going to have a professional who uses all of his own equipment and dials in my audio.

My answer may wander here of there over the course of it so I apologize in advance. Sub EQ can sometimes be thought of as a relative to room treatment as it is a set it and forget it but it needs to be there device. A professional coming in will find locations that are less affected by room modes and nodes that can cause peaks and nulls in your frequency response. All rooms will have room modes/nodes. A professional can find where they are least detrimental for your room. Notice, they didn't go away, just found the least bad spot. They add in room treatment. Acoustic treatment can be many things from furniture and pillows to dedicated absorption panels/cylinders/pillars. These acoustic treatments will help tame some of the errant freq's that are bouncing around your home and blurry your sound or even sucking it out if the frequencies create nulls (noise cancellation, lobbing, etc),

Acoustic treatment can do wonders, Now, sometimes it can do all f it, and sometimes it is easier to get the EQ to handle a lot of stuff that perhaps the room treatments didn't/couldn;t do. That's where subwoofer PEQ comes in. It measures the FR of your room and tames the peaks.

As with everything on this site some people will say it is a usefull tool when properly done. Others will decry all EQ as dirty spawn of a audioengineers seed. Some say it is the best thing since sliced bread. I happen to believe you get out of it what you put into it. If you set up your subs in a location to help with bass response, wisely use some bass traps/acoutic panels and then use the EQ you can get a far better experience than if you did the first one of two only

Now the SVS EQ as far as I know if going to be a bit more advanced that the Anti-moe that I use but the user interface will be the same. Plug the box/brains of the unit in the signal path to the sub, connect the supplied mic. Push one or two buttons and go get a cup of coffee. When you are back the device has measured the room remaining nodes.modes and compensated the signal to try to finally alleviate them as much as possible.

After the EQ program has done its thing you will most likely need to raise the level on your sub. The peaks are gone so you are working with a much cleaner FR now.

I personally have owned many dual set ups (currently I have dual AV123 MFW-15's in a similar size room with a similar layout) and I was very impressed with the one Ultra.

How does the ultra sound compared to dual mfw-15 ?

My answer may wander here of there over the course of it so I apologize in advance. Sub EQ can sometimes be thought of as a relative to room treatment as it is a set it and forget it but it needs to be there device. A professional coming in will find locations that are less affected by room modes and nodes that can cause peaks and nulls in your frequency response. All rooms will have room modes/nodes. A professional can find where they are least detrimental for your room. Notice, they didn't go away, just found the least bad spot. They add in room treatment. Acoustic treatment can be many things from furniture and pillows to dedicated absorption panels/cylinders/pillars. These acoustic treatments will help tame some of the errant freq's that are bouncing around your home and blurry your sound or even sucking it out if the frequencies create nulls (noise cancellation, lobbing, etc),

Acoustic treatment can do wonders, Now, sometimes it can do all f it, and sometimes it is easier to get the EQ to handle a lot of stuff that perhaps the room treatments didn't/couldn;t do. That's where subwoofer PEQ comes in. It measures the FR of your room and tames the peaks.

As with everything on this site some people will say it is a usefull tool when properly done. Others will decry all EQ as dirty spawn of a audioengineers seed. Some say it is the best thing since sliced bread. I happen to believe you get out of it what you put into it. If you set up your subs in a location to help with bass response, wisely use some bass traps/acoutic panels and then use the EQ you can get a far better experience than if you did the first one of two only

Now the SVS EQ as far as I know if going to be a bit more advanced that the Anti-moe that I use but the user interface will be the same. Plug the box/brains of the unit in the signal path to the sub, connect the supplied mic. Push one or two buttons and go get a cup of coffee. When you are back the device has measured the room remaining nodes.modes and compensated the signal to try to finally alleviate them as much as possible.

After the EQ program has done its thing you will most likely need to raise the level on your sub. The peaks are gone so you are working with a much cleaner FR now.

Ok that helps me some and forgive me for probably diving into dumb mode here but how does the EQ tame the peaks so to speak with cleaner frequency? If you are watching a movie isn't the sub going to play the frequency at which the movie is encoded in the LFE channel?

Yes, the sub will play the LFE channel but it's frequency response is not flat. There are peaks and valleys in it. Your room will also amplify certain low frequencies as well. So when you calibrate the sub at 75 db, you are calibrating based on the loudest frequency. With my sub, that was 54hz. My low bass was non-existant. I added a Behringer Feedback Destoryer as a parametric EQ, flattened the resonse to plus/minus 3db from 100hz to 17hz. When I re-calibrated after the applying the EQ, I had effortless bass down to floor shaking lows.

-Robert

Ok I think I may be understanding it a bit better finally. So in essence even if we had the same sub, and even the same receiver and played the same movie at the same db level our subs may be playing at completely different frequences because of room layout, size, and furniture and so on.

Since the EQ is a set it and forget it type thing, is it always hooked up to your system? or is this just an initial calibration?

Ok I think I may be understanding it a bit better finally. So in essence even if we had the same sub, and even the same receiver and played the same movie at the same db level our subs may be playing at completely different frequences because of room layout, size, and furniture and so on.

Bingo! Rooms play a huge part in what we hear. EQ'ing your system can provide large improvements in your sound quality. Same with adding acoustic treatments.



Since the EQ is a set it and forget it type thing, is it always hooked up to your system? or is this just an initial calibration?


Yes, the EQ would always be in your system. It would be in the path between your receiver/pre-amp and your subwoofer(s). If using multiple subs you can just split the output with a Y0cable just the same as you would out of the back of your receiver/pre-amp.

How does the ultra sound compared to dual mfw-15 ?

Keep in mind it is a different room and set up. Even though our houses are similar they are not identical. The Ultra is awesome. I've always felt that way about it. It was a bit more placement sensitive but we were able to incorporate it easily enough and it blends very well. I would say the Ultra is a bit more articulate than the MFW's but they are very comparable to each other. If I were in a different home where I didn't really need duals to help out with the FR across my seating area I would probably purchase the Ultra over the MFW's, but the margin is not wide enough for me to replace the existing setup.


Of course, if a PB16-Ultra comes out, with wireless as that would allow me to look at some new locations since I have a ceramic tile floor and can't rerun any cables, that may change my perspective enough to replace what I already have.