The operating loss will be Sony's first in 14 years, underscoring deepening troubles for a company that has fallen behind Apple's iPod in portable music and Nintendo in videogames, and is losing money on flat TVs.

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-263298.html

The operating loss will be Sony's first in 14 years, underscoring deepening troubles for a company that has fallen behind Apple's iPod in portable music and Nintendo in videogames, and is losing money on flat TVs.

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-263298.html

Yikes, and I thought Pioneer was in big trouble.

Yikes, and I thought Pioneer was in big trouble.

Company X is in big trouble as well.

It's not too surprising. Sony's been letting others eat their lunch for years now... Apple, Samsung, Nintendo, Microsoft, etc. They haven't been executing well, even under Sir Howard, and they make lots of strategic blunders. Even the day-to-day stuff isn't run well (I used to work for Sony). The higher-ups seem to be in it for themselves first, way too much politics.

They're in for a terrible time of it. Only real question is whether it'll be fatal or not.

Besides CC this has to be the second largest layoff and loss.

Chris

Company X is in big trouble as well.
:D
Hint for Sir Howard - your brand name is NOT worth a premium, stop deluding yourselves.

Samsung posted losses too. Everyone's sucking wind this year. Not really a big surprise, though.

Samsung posted losses too. Everyone's sucking wind this year. Not really a big surprise, though.

Samsung's loss was only $16 million though... a true drop-in-the-bucket compared to Sony's $2.9 billion.

Considering Samsung's size, that's pretty much a rounding error for them. They essentially broke even.

It IS a lot worse than what they did a year ago, though, where they made something like a $1.6 billion profit.

:D
Hint for Sir Howard - your brand name is NOT worth a premium, stop deluding yourselves.

I could not agree more. In many categories, they sell at a premium. From laptops to flatscreens, this company does not seem to understand that price matters. Don't get me wrong, their products are nice, but just not worth the premium price.

Samsung's loss was only $16 million though... a true drop-in-the-bucket compared to Sony's $2.9 billion.

Considering Samsung's size, that's pretty much a rounding error for them. They essentially broke even.

It IS a lot worse than what they did a year ago, though, where they made something like a $1.6 billion profit.

How does Samsung's accounting differ from Sony's? Only once you understand how they recognize profit (and when) can you make a judgment on who 'lost' more.

How does Samsung's accounting differ from Sony's? Only once you understand how they recognize profit (and when) can you make a judgment on who 'lost' more.

I could be wrong, but I dont think he was talking about accounting mishaps. But I agree with him, Sammys Revenue in 07 was 103 billion or so, 16 mil in the red isnt all that bad.

I've worked for companies that would decide that if they were going to have a loss then they might as well include stuff that they kept on the books for a long time. They suddenly scrapped old inventory and other things just so that in the future the financials would be stronger. Sony may just have a lot of 'paper' losses that they want to get rid of now that they can blame the general economy.

The only thing that has remained strong about Sony has been their prices, because their customer service surely isn't what it used to be, atleast from my experiences in the past 18 months.

How does Samsung's accounting differ from Sony's? Only once you understand how they recognize profit (and when) can you make a judgment on who 'lost' more.

It doesn't take a PhD in accounting to understand that Sony's in a lot more trouble than Samsung... just a pulse.

It doesn't take a PhD in accounting to understand that Sony's in a lot more trouble than Samsung... just a pulse.

PHD? No, just a basic understanding of revenue recognition and costing systems. Pretty basic really.

I'm just pointing out that unless you understand the accounting systems pointing at a single line in either companies income statement is quite useless.

Their degree of loss may be due to bad business practices, creative accounting, whatever. My point here is that the mere fact that they posted a loss -- even a big one -- is not necessarily evidence of a doomed company. Everyone will be hurting this year, I expect, some from legitimate reasons, some maybe from creative accounting. I'm not an accountant, though, so what do I know.

I could not agree more. In many categories, they sell at a premium. From laptops to flatscreens, this company does not seem to understand that price matters. Don't get me wrong, their products are nice, but just not worth the premium price.

Good point. Consider the 55 inch led backlit lcd both have on the market. On todays Amazon the Sony is 6.5k, the Samsung 4k. Even if you believe the Sony is better, a point I won't concede, does anyone really believe it is worth 2.5k more?? I would love to see the sales figures for these two sets.

Good point. Consider the 55 inch led backlit lcd both have on the market. On todays Amazon the Sony is 6.5k, the Samsung 4k. Even if you believe the Sony is better, a point I won't concede, does anyone really believe it is worth 2.5k more?? I would love to see the sales figures for these two sets.

The Samsung 950 looks a hell of a lot better than any Sony.

Sony's designs of late have been atrocious, and it does contribute to sales. Let's face it, you purchase a tv to look at it. If it ain't pretty, why buy it?

Is Pioneer still in a nose dive?

I'm just pointing out that unless you understand the accounting systems pointing at a single line in either companies income statement is quite useless.

Well duh, you've picked a really obvious nit. But very likely not one worth anywhere near $3 billion per quarter or so. Missing the forest for the trees must be an Olympic sport for you.

Are you just engaging in some freestyle propeller-headism, or are you seriously maintaining that Sony's in better shape than Samsung? :rolleyes:

If so, that'd be pretty amusing.

Well duh, you've picked a really obvious nit. But very likely not one worth anywhere near $3 billion per quarter or so. Missing the forest for the trees must be an Olympic sport for you.

Are you just engaging in some freestyle propeller-headism, or are you seriously maintaining that Sony's in better shape than Samsung? :rolleyes:

If so, that'd be pretty amusing.

What on Earth is wrong with you? I never said Sony was in better shape.

I simply stated that using one line on an income statement is like judging a TV by how one pixel performs: useless.

Please do not try to read my mind or try jump to any conclusions about my opinions. You simply do not have enough evidence to do so.

^ You haven't said Sony's in better shape, but you haven't admitted that it's in worse shape either, or in bad shape in general.

And while everyone, including me, is with you on the 'there can be accounting differences/tricks' caveat (well, duhhh), profit/loss statements often DO have some vague relationship with reality. GM, Ford, and Chrysler have reported losses in the billions too... is it all accounting malarkey, or are these companies in actual sorry shape? Hint: It's the latter. :rolleyes:

Jcon, I'm starting to think it's fairly useless to talk to you, since you seem to want to go down a side-alley rather than discussing the true matter at hand. You're trying to hammer home a Captain Obvious point that most ppl are already aware of, and probably don't care that much about.

The real issue is, YES, Sony is doing poorly, why is that, and what can they do to get OUT of what is beginning to look like a slow death-spiral. :(

Got anything interesting to add on THAT front? Because I don't want to sit in a corner with you and pick nits all day... that's extremely boring.

Can Sony survive that BIG of a hit?
Or, how much more bleeding till the patient is dead?
Is there a way back in black in the future?
(if the 1st answer is "no"; don't worry 'bout the other 2 :-} )

^ You haven't said Sony's in better shape, but you haven't admitted that it's in worse shape either, or in bad shape in general.

And while everyone, including me, is with you on the 'there can be accounting differences/tricks' caveat (well, duhhh), profit/loss statements often DO have some vague relationship with reality. GM, Ford, and Chrysler have reported losses in the billions too... is it all accounting malarkey, or are these companies in actual sorry shape? Hint: It's the latter. :rolleyes:

Jcon, I'm starting to think it's fairly useless to talk to you, since you seem to want to go down a side-alley rather than discussing the true matter at hand. You're trying to hammer home a Captain Obvious point that most ppl are already aware of, and probably don't care that much about.

The real issue is, YES, Sony is doing poorly, why is that, and what can they do to get OUT of what is beginning to look like a slow death-spiral. :(

Got anything interesting to add on THAT front? Because I don't want to sit in a corner with you and pick nits all day... that's extremely boring.

Sony, like many other companies, have been slow to realize that this economy won't support the ridiculous prices they are charging. MITS with the outrageous 7K price for their disappointing dlp Laservue are also living in a dream world. Layoff after layoff , people losing jobs by the millions. Do any of these companies have a clue?? Now Samsung, providing good quality products for a more reasonable price, will be in a better position than Sony. The difference in price between the Samsung 55A950 and the Sony 55XBR8 is an example on how Sony's insistence on charging ridiculous prices are going to kill them off.

Sharp and Sony have decided to delay the targeted start of a joint-venture LCD (liquid crystal display) production and sales venture.

The two companies said changes in the world economy have pushed them to extend talks, originally started almost a year ago, and put-off by one year the targeted start of the new venture to March 2010.


http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/012909-sharp-sony-postpone-lcd-joint.html

Good point. Consider the 55 inch led backlit lcd both have on the market. On todays Amazon the Sony is 6.5k, the Samsung 4k. Even if you believe the Sony is better, a point I won't concede, does anyone really believe it is worth 2.5k more?? I would love to see the sales figures for these two sets.

I can say, emphatically no! I don't believe Sony's 55 inch LED is 2.5k better than Samsungs.

And while everyone, including me, is with you on the 'there can be accounting differences/tricks' caveat (well, duhhh), profit/loss statements often DO have some vague relationship with reality. GM, Ford, and Chrysler have reported losses in the billions too... is it all accounting malarkey, or are these companies in actual sorry shape? Hint: It's the latter. :rolleyes:


For the record, Ford is actually in fine shape, with almost $30 Billion in available cash and credit. They are perfectly capable of weathering the recession, more so than many foreign makers in fact. They are a completely different company than five years ago and appear to have made all the right (but painful) moves to get back on track.

Point taken otherwise though. :p

For the record, Ford is actually in fine shape, with almost $30 Billion in available cash and credit. They are perfectly capable of weathering the recession, more so than many foreign makers in fact. They are a completely different company than five years ago and appear to have made all the right (but painful) moves to get back on track.

Point taken otherwise though. :p


From the Detroit Free Press:

Ford, draining cash, to draw last $10B in credit
January 30, 2009

Ford Motor Co. is clinging to the idea that it will be able to ride out the economic downturn without tapping federal loans -- despite shedding another 6,300 workers over the past few months, slashing billions more in other costs and still posting the worst annual loss in the company's history.

To weather the storm ahead, the Dearborn automaker -- the only U.S. automaker so far to resist government aid -- plans to access its entire $10.1-billion line of credit. Ford expects to receive that money Tuesday.

Meanwhile, Ford said it would continue to examine restructuring opportunities and that it wouldn't rule out additional job cuts.

"We are about where we need to be right now, but ... we are going to monitor it closely and take decisive action because the most important thing we do is match our production to real demand," Ford Chief Executive Officer Alan Mulally said during a conference call Thursday.

Despite Ford's confidence, analysts remained skeptical that Ford could survive much longer without government funding.

"We do expect that they are going to have to take government money," said Aaron Bragman, automotive analyst for IHS Global Insight.

And Citibank analyst Itay Michaeli observed that Ford's numbers "depend on the second half getting better."

Even as Ford aggressively cut costs, employees, production and inventory, the automaker posted a $14.6-billion net loss for 2008. That was the largest annual loss in the company's 105-year history, overshadowing the prior record loss of $12.7 billion in 2006.

What's more, Ford burned through more than $22 billion in cash and credit during the past year. It ended the year with $24 billion in cash and available credit. That is half as much as Ford had available just two years ago.


Rest of article at http://www.freep.com/article/20090130/BUSINESS06/901300347/?imw=Y

...

Didn't I say they had about $30 Billion in cash and credit? Thank you for confirming that.

OK, perhaps "fine shape" was a stretch, but nobody is technically in "fine shape" these days.

Didn't I say they had about $30 Billion in cash and credit? Thank you for confirming that.

Actually, I didn't. The article says "$24 billion in cash and available credit", not $30 billion. Which sounds like a lot, until you read the line previous:

"What's more, Ford burned through more than $22 billion in cash and credit during the past year."


So basically, they're broke/bankrupt in about a year if things keep going the way they have. Sooner, if things get worse.

THAT'S why analysts are saying that, at some point, Ford is likely going to have to take government money, i.e. 'get bailed out'.

If you honestly think that's a good place to be in, I don't know what to tell you.

I think the point you were trying to make was that, relatively speaking, Ford is in better shape than GM and Chrysler. And that's very much true, but it's also like saying that a diabetic with a history of heart trouble is in better shape than a cancer patient... i.e. it's true, but you wouldn't really want to be either one.

Is Pioneer still losing money?

Sony, like many other companies, have been slow to realize that this economy won't support the ridiculous prices they are charging. MITS with the outrageous 7K price for their disappointing dlp Laservue are also living in a dream world. Layoff after layoff , people losing jobs by the millions. Do any of these companies have a clue?? Now Samsung, providing good quality products for a more reasonable price, will be in a better position than Sony. The difference in price between the Samsung 55A950 and the Sony 55XBR8 is an example on how Sony's insistence on charging ridiculous prices are going to kill them off.

This is quite true across the board for Sony. Their laptops are too much, their desktops are too much, their televisions are too much, their game consoles are too much, their memory cards/flash drives are too much. Their digital cameras are probably too much as well, I haven't really looked at that kind of thing. The only thing I've seen from Sony that's been competitively priced were some DVD-Rs.

When I was checking out televisions the other day, I ignored Sony completely, simply because I knew beforehand that they were overpriced. If Samsung wants to work hard, make great looking products, and price themselves a few hundred lower, then they deserve my business. The most important factor in a purchase is always the price, no matter how much money a person has. Sony just seems arrogant in this regard.