Can I have the Barco PCF file? Yes or no.

Perhaps you should reconsider the demanding tone. You had already asked the question once, that's more than sufficient. Also, how can I possibly answer such a question? You are fully aware that the unit is not mine.

I'm a very helpful person by nature. The next time I meet the owner, I will ask him.

I responded to the posts here with these:

in the thread started about MTF here:


--Darin

I hope others take your lead on this. This thread is now like 2 interwoven threads.

Some of the MTF, and associated stuff is very interesting and certainly deserves its own thread.

Its also far too easy to miss something of potential importance in this thread, as it is currently.

Hi Craig!

If you do it, I can assure you, this will be a heavy upgrade, you will be very happy. I had the Christie 405 here over Christmas which is also a pd OEM and the lumis is shining high above.

Sorry if this might sound a little OT, but seems that Sim2 has also a big plus on that side. To hand out preprod units like shown here proves that at its best.

All the best for your plans!

Norman

Thanks Norman. After I saw the Lumis at CES, I had to go back the next day and watch it some more. The picture was so stunning, I knew this would be my next projector ! And worth every penny! On our moderately sized screens, this should look like a giant plasma !!! Only better !

I am not a SIM fan, in fact I had a hard time with the DLP image and always preffered the SXRD look. But this Lumis changed my total thinking about a DLP projector. Like Craig, I went to the suite in Vegas second day just to sit closer to the screen and see how noisy the picture was - which I found the Runco VX 55D and The Titan HD 500 to be. I reported to Jeff (The Bland) that I saw a SXRD look with high brightness and Deep blacks when I saw the Lumis.
Others may be looking for a 100% projector, MTF may be a consideration or whether you can do 2:35 without a Anamorphic etc but for my eyes this projector was the best I have ever seen regardless of price and I have seen a few last two years.
This coupled with a price tag at which if you have to replace the projector because 3D is here after three years and the convenience of installation, Lumis is hard to beat.
I could not imagine installing a JVC 4K/Meridian projector which as big as a golf cart and noisy as hell and is for 185K if the Lumis is 99% as good at 38K.
The price point for top end projector his definetely shifted with the Lumis.

Your welcome to continue to say how you feel DCI projectors are better in the Lumis( you are going to anyway) thread but I wish you would at least least acknowledge the impressive things the Lumis is doing.

Neither you nor Peter are going to do this. Instead we get into how you feel that with the DCI units MTF is an advantage.

I feel that this projector(the Lumis) is shaping up to be one of the best things out there) I really don't know why you are in this with the DCI discussion.

I do know that Alan, CM, Wolfgang and his friend all seem to consider the Lumis on the appropriate screen size as a contendere in every category and best in show in others (including DCI).

Art

Well, since you already know what my evaluation will show and what I will say about the Lumis, I don't know what to say.

What I also have said earlier in this thread is that I expect the Lumis to be a very good design and that I don't expect my conclusions to be very different from Wolfgang's.

Well, since you already know what my evaluation will show and what I will say about the Lumis, I don't know what to say.




An exaggerated distortion.;) My hope is you will simply be objective and not find anything that DCI might have an advantage and that immediately becomes "The Metric" that matters.

The kind of panel alignment shown in this thread, the way the blacks can meld into the screen border, the haze reduction all are impreessive Lumis advantages.

Art

I could not imagine installing a JVC 4K/Meridian projector which as big as a golf cart and noisy as hell and is for 185K if the Lumis is 99% as good at 38K.
The price point for top end projector his definetely shifted with the Lumis.

Ash,
There are a number of people here who have seen the Meridian properly. Its actually one of the most disappointing machines out there, considering the expectations. I could name many machines that produce a better image. Some of the contributors to this thread can vouch for that.

Take the current DCI/Lumis discussions....Both sides of that discussion provide a clearly better image, and its not hard to see.........Once you get away from specially selected and prepared demo content.

Thanks Norman. After I saw the Lumis at CES, I had to go back the next day and watch it some more. The picture was so stunning, I knew this would be my next projector ! And worth every penny! On our moderately sized screens, this should look like a giant plasma !!! Only better !

Ahhh CES, I should have known that :) Absolutely correct, price/performance is 1+.
Anyway, congrats! I think I can remember that you should have the right bottles in the cellar, so this will be really a giant plasma-premiere :D

Can someone direct me to information on lens options and throw distances for the Lumis?

Can someone direct me to information on lens options and throw distances for the Lumis?

T1= 1.37-1.66
T2= 1.75-2.48
T3= 2.60-3.90

T2 is the standard lens. The others are $1k extra I believe.

If you are very near any zoom end, double check after the production units ship.

i was going to say something a while back that i felt would have been helpful to the contrast/ansi/MTF discussion. however after 2 pages of watching the monkeys fling poo... it seems to be unimportant.

I fail to see why people who have not seen something continue to crap all over it.

THe lumis is awesome. DCI boxes are awesome.

In some apps, the DCI box is better, and the lumis could not do that same job.
In some apps, the Lumis is better, and the DCI box could not do that same job.

CM,
Until yet, the wolf was the Best picture I saw at the CEDIA in Denver.
I also saw the Meridian 4K at CEDIA.
My 2nd favorite although a long way from wolf was titan HD 500. But the titan is very plasma looking with lots of digital noise.
I feel the wolf could be a very good looking picture when it is finally launched. . . . but that is just my gut feel.
The Lumis just floors everything and with its size and low fan noise I do not need to use a port glass. As I will be running it at low lamp on my 12 foot wide 2:35 Cinecurve screen with a throw of 25 feet I will be at 2.75 of T3 lens and will get 25 foot Lambert picture after 30% decay in lamp.
The 2nd lamp retails for 700 bucks as to my Qualia's 5000 dollar Xenon lamp.
I am also shocked that this little projector destroys the superiority of xenon lamp as this UHP lamp gives a xenon like picture.
Now I can't wait to see the Lumis in my Cinema on 4th February.
Ash

T1= 1.37-1.66
T2= 1.75-2.48
T3= 2.60-3.90

T2 is the standard lens. The others are $1k extra I believe.

If you are very near any zoom end, double check after the production units ship.


Just a follow-up, the T1 and T2 are the same cost, the T3 is $1,500 more.

Jim

T1= 1.37-1.66
T2= 1.75-2.48
T3= 2.60-3.90

T2 is the standard lens. The others are $1k extra I believe.

If you are very near any zoom end, double check after the production units ship.


Thanks. Getting my ruler out.

CM,
Until yet, the wolf was the Best picture I saw at the CEDIA in Denver.
I also saw the Meridian 4K at CEDIA.
My 2nd favorite although a long way from wolf was titan HD 500. But the titan is very plasma looking with lots of digital noise.
I feel the wolf could be a very good looking picture when it is finally launched. . . . but that is just my gut feel.



I heard a few good reports on the Wolf, sadly I also heard Wolf have recently folded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer
Thanks Norman. After I saw the Lumis at CES, I had to go back the next day and watch it some more. The picture was so stunning, I knew this would be my next projector ! And worth every penny! On our moderately sized screens, this should look like a giant plasma !!! Only better !

Ahhh CES, I should have known that Absolutely correct, price/performance is 1+.
Anyway, congrats! I think I can remember that you should have the right bottles in the cellar, so this will be really a giant plasma-premiere

I think it only fitting to open an Italian wine at this premiere. Perhaps a Casanova di Neri Brunello di Montalcino Tenuta Nuova 1997. Or a nice Barolo. But which movie - Dark City, Blade Runner or The Dark Knight? :D

Anyway, I patiently await this new projector to start shipping!!

Just a follow-up, the T1 and T2 are the same cost, the T3 is $1,500 more.

Jim

big question is would a T2 + Schneider with pj Lumis at around 7meters
from a 4meters scope screen (width) work. ie the beam would "enter" the lens without vignetting...

CM,
I was carefull not to mention about financial situation at wolf although I was suspecting that, I guess I am not as candid as you.
I would like to start a discussion on why we were made to believe until yet that a xenon bulb can only display a good picture.
Any comments.... anyone!
Ash

CM,
I was carefull not to mention about financial situation at wolf although I was suspecting that, I guess I am not as candid as you.
I would like to start a discussion on why we were made to believe until yet that a xenon bulb can only display a good picture.
Any comments.... anyone!
Ash

Because as terrific and superduper these uhp lamps are getting there is still a very special nuance endemic to the big xenon lamps, not quite so as with the cermax mind you.

The new Phillips light will be Pulsable allowing lamp modulation down to crt levels.

Do that with a xenon lamp and you'll get this:

http://www.film-tech.com/uploads/uploads0503/Xenex_2.jpg

I would like to start a discussion on why we were made to believe until yet that a xenon bulb can only display a good picture.

The people who preach this have sadly come under the spell of this man.

http://earbuds.popdose.com/pykorry/douchebag.jpg

Some of us were strong enough to resist him. Other, weaker men, succumbed to his influence. I smell their presence among us already.

Xenon is a more stable lamp. in a couple of areas.

UHP is not as stable. in a couple of areas.

However it is amazing what can be done once hundreds of millions are thrown at a technology in R and D. UHP has been made to perform in a far more stable manner within the usages that it is being deployed.

THink...
Xenon = V12
UHP = Turbocharged/Supercharged small block V6

when you are driving on most roads, the two technologies really do not compare. you can accomplish almost everything with either. Get onto the Salt flats... or the autobahn... then one takes off against the other. UHP still is unlikely to take over in either VERY large screens, or in 24/7 applications. Xenon is just too pricey for wide widescale projector use.

the UHP has been augmented by over a decade of constant technology enhancements and developments. The Xenon has stayed pretty stable since there is no real need to improve as much as the UHP had to.

Now SOMEBODY here may go on and on about how we are all blind idiots to not see the differences... but like anything... tradeoffs. if you asked a designer to trade a no holds barred machine, it would likley include Xenon. just due to its inherent nature. but if that no holds barred machine needed to sell in the real world... tradeoffs.

Now SOMEBODY here may go on and on about how we are all blind idiots to not see the differences...

Are you talking to me?

http://www.nancarrow-webdesk.com/warehouse/storage2/2008-w50/img.437909_t.jpg

Can anyone comment on the PQ comparison of the Lumis to the HT3000e? I'm sure the Lumis is brighter, but it sounds like the pq tricks of the 3000e are what have been incorporated into the 3-chipper. Are their other new features (other than having 3 chips)?


Or maybe the better question: will there be a 1-chip product with the new pq advances of the Lumis?

I heard a few good reports on the Wolf, sadly I also heard Wolf have recently folded.

Jim Burns wrote a letter explaining that "due to the current economic condition other courses of action were worth pursuing".

Well CM paint a wolf effigy on the side of the LUMIS as a first kill reminder of the projector wars of 2009.

Can anyone comment on the PQ comparison of the Lumis to the HT3000e? I'm sure the Lumis is brighter, but it sounds like the pq tricks of the 3000e are what have been incorporated into the 3-chipper. Are their other new features (other than having 3 chips)?

The 3000e is fundamentally a standard single chip DLP, albeit one of the very best.

The Lumis is massively different to a 3 chip 3000e, although it does contain the lamp modulation. It also has the Dynamic Black system, but with a unique custom designed iris. This has been placed at the very front of the light path, and has pushed the ANSI performance to a record level. There is also a limited range manual iris.

All of these are useful in isolation, together they add up to far more that the sum of their parts. The way these element are implemented is very different to anything else atm. The control, analysis and synchronization is (according to the engineers) the real secret.

Its the first dynamic system that's basically undetectable, due to the synchronization, motor speed and the fact that its also dead silent.

Bottom line, this is a very different beast to a 3 chip 3000e

If you need further info, just shout.

The 3000e is fundamentally a standard single chip DLP, albeit one of the very best.

The Lumis is massively different to a 3 chip 3000e, although it does contain the lamp modulation. It also has the Dynamic Black system, but with a unique custom designed iris. This has been placed at the very front of the light path, and has pushed the ANSI performance to a record level. There is also a limited range manual iris.

All of these are useful in isolation, together they add up to far more that the sum of their parts. The way these element are implemented is very different to anything else atm. The control, analysis and synchronization is (according to the engineers) the real secret.

Its the first dynamic system that's basically undetectable, due to the synchronization, motor speed and the fact that its also dead silent.

Bottom line, this is a very different beast to a 3 chip 3000e

If you need further info, just shout.

Thanks, CM. I guess what I wanted to ask, was whether or not one expected a new 1-chipper (presumably a successor to the 3000e) that had all the new pq advances of the Lumis (other, of course, than 3 chips), that would have the higher CR, though of course not the brightness.

Well CM paint a wolf effigy on the side of the LUMIS as a first kill reminder of the projector wars of 2009.

FFS Peter, that's a bit much even for you. You make it sound like Terminators taking down companies.:eek:

I think its very sad that Wolf went down. They were on my shortlist.

Thanks, CM. I guess what I wanted to ask, was whether or not one expected a new 1-chipper (presumably a successor to the 3000e) that had all the new pq advances of the Lumis (other, of course, than 3 chips), that would have the higher CR, though of course not the brightness.

I think that its an absolute certainty that the Lumis technology will migrate in both directions of the price range.

I think were also getting close to the last generation of PJs where CR has any real meaning.

I think it only fitting to open an Italian wine at this premiere. Perhaps a Casanova di Neri Brunello di Montalcino Tenuta Nuova 1997. Or a nice Barolo. But which movie - Dark City, Blade Runner or The Dark Knight? :D

Anyway, I patiently await this new projector to start shipping!!

Well, certainly '97 was a great year for Brunellos. The di Neri was no exception. The Banfi Poggio Riserva '97 (below) is a favorite of mine... '99 Castello Banfi sitting next to it is not so bad either;)... but a little Louis XIII is not a bad addition as well.. :).

http://www.winglake.com/images/components_current/wine.jpg

I've got some Banfi Poggio Riserva '97, and a couple of magnums of Castelgiocondo Brunello di Montalcino Riserva 1997 too. In fact, you can see the Castelgiocongo just left of the double mag of Capanna Riserva 2001.......

http://www.summitpost.org/images/medium/419380.JPG

Anyone that thinks projectors are expensive hasn't started to seriously collect wine !!!

Christy: Didn't you report that a CineDigitar worked with a C3X? I felt the CineDigitar is simply too small to use with these projectors. The prime is just too recessed and the beam size too large at the lens. It may fit but if it does, it will just barely and you may have edge effects from the borderline vingetting. Perhaps if one "stuck it in the hole", but then you would be very limited on tilt, yaw, etc. tunability. Or if you were at the long end of a T3, maybe. It would still be too close for comfort I believe.

it worked up to 11 feet (2.34:1) on a c3x 1080p with a T2 lens. When it got larger than that it started having vignetting and internal reflections. I could get a passable image up to 12 feet with tweaking the angle of the the lens.

it worked up to 11 feet (2.34:1) on a c3x 1080p with a T2 lens. When it got larger than that it started having vignetting and internal reflections. I could get a passable image up to 12 feet with tweaking the angle of the the lens.Thanks, but there is a piece of info missing. For the 11ft 2.34 width (I presume width), what was the throw distance? As for the tweaking lens angle, there is really only one "right" place, unless you are ok with unbalanced pinchshion, etc.

Thanks, but there is a piece of info missing. For the 11ft 2.34 width (I presume width), what was the throw distance? As for the tweaking lens angle, there is really only one "right" place, unless you are ok with unbalanced pinchshion, etc.

The room was 20 feet long, so throw was 18+ feet.

Just in case, remember that TR is computed based on 16:9 equivalent

Christy

Just in case, remember that TR is computed based on 16:9 equivalentYes, I know, I work with them a lot :cool: Still I am surprised you could get a CineDigitar to work (properly) with a 2.15 TR on a C3X. Isco IIIL doesn't have a lot of wiggle room with it and aperature is much, much larger than the Cinedigitar. I don't want to take the thread OT but thanks for the answer. Best, Scott

I think that its an absolute certainty that the Lumis technology will migrate in both directions of the price range.

I think were also getting close to the last generation of PJs where CR has any real meaning.

Sounds good, CM. So if I hold onto my RS20 for 3 yrs, say, I may be tempted to try a new technology if something exciting has emerged by then.

Sounds good, CM. So if I hold onto my RS20 for 3 yrs, say, I may be tempted to try a new technology if something exciting has emerged by then.

I agree. It is good to see the continued advances in performance of projectors at all levels. I have finally taken down my G90 and replaced with the RS20. Both are great projectors with trade-offs. The Lumis looks like a fabulous projector with less trade-off. I am glad it wasn't announced a few months ago when I pre-ordered the RS20 or I would have had a very difficult price/performance decision to make. At this point, although the Lumis looks to be the best available for my application, I am quite happy with my purchase. Of course at some point I will be tempted to upgrade and it is good to know that the technological improvements will be substantial.

I agree. It is good to see the continued advances in performance of projectors at all levels. I have finally taken down my G90 and replaced with the RS20. Both are great projectors with trade-offs. The Lumis looks like a fabulous projector with less trade-off. I am glad it wasn't announced a few months ago when I pre-ordered the RS20 or I would have had a very difficult price/performance decision to make. At this point, although the Lumis looks to be the best available for my application, I am quite happy with my purchase. Of course at some point I will be tempted to upgrade and it is good to know that the technological improvements will be substantial.

I compared the RS20 to my C3X1080 and all I can say is that you have a fantastic projector.

I think it is useful even without dynamic technologies. The RS1 doesn't use dynamic technologies but the contrast ratio takes a nose dive above 2% APL scenes. I think the graph of contrast ratios from low APL through ANSI is useful for every projector and display technology made as it gives you an overall picture of what the display is capable of.

Take the lumis with DB turned off, it starts at an on/off of 5K:1 and ends up at 1k:1 at ANSI. Take the RS20, it starts with an on/off up to 42k:1 and ends up at 250:1 at ANSI. What the graph will tell us is where the crossover point is. I suspect on DCI machines the crossover from 2,500:1 to its ANSI is very low in the APL range compared to the RS20, and that is why the DCI machines can hold their own (contrast-wise) even with such a low on/off contrast ratio compared to the RS20.

It would be a worthwhile exercise to take an RS20, Lumis, and DCI machine and do such a graph (Lumis DB on and off) and see what it looks like. I think it would be very enlightening and could explain a lot of what we are seeing in the visual results.

Of course there is far more to a projector than just contrast, but this would at least provide some insight to those that preach on/off contrast as being the end all of display technology.

I couldn't have said it better myself. It would be very interesting to see the contrast results from the RS20, Lumis and a DCI machine directly compared using the same benchmark. I plan on measuring the RS20 but others will have to measure the Lumis and DCI machines.


exactly
different machines different use different "clients" different home theaters:
big giant screens with punchy images imply tons of brigthness. the domain of the LUMIS or much more expensive machines.
see attached file.
recent lcd barely bright enough for a 200-220cm screen


Nice diagram! Yes it clearly shows the turf differences between the Lumis and RS20.


I know in your contrast thread it appeared that there was an issue comparing dynamic contrast with native that translated well into on screen performance ?


Initially there was some drama where it was felt that using full white (100%) patterns didn't show the full benefit of dynamic technologies because dynamic technologies render most of their benefit to shadow detail. So I came up with another methodology and second set of test patterns designed to complement the earlier graph and this new method captures what happens from 0-100 IRE and pretty clearly shows the strengths and weaknesses of native vs dynamic. As an example, the first graph in the link below shows the VW50 iris on/off compared to an RS1 for example:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10631504#post10631504

One can see how much benefit the iris and dynamic gamma add to contrast and in what ranges. This graph and the contrast vs APL graph complement each well in my opinion. To be clear though there is no issue with the data that is measured. Each suite of test patterns can be directly applied to native and dynamic technologies alike and directly compared to one another. Data is data. It's the interpretation of the data where issues can arise. Both graphs tell us a tremendous amount of information and much more than ANSI or on/off, but they still don't tell everything.

Wolfgang,

There has been a lot of discussion about the use of DB in the Lumis and speculation that there is no BC. Is it possible for you to display the test pattern below on the Lumis?

http://public.csusm.edu/kai/mark/avs/20%20step%20greyscale%20-%20low%20APL.gif

This is a 1080p 20 step greyscale test pattern from 0-100 IRE in 5 IRE steps using very small rectangles, so that the overall APL is very low. When viewed on the Lumis the image should be very dark which should engage the iris and DB and thereby provide some strong clues as to what happens with the final image gamma displayed on the screen. Any BC will immediately be noticeable by a merging of one or more of the rectangles.

Yes, I know, I work with them a lot :cool: Still I am surprised you could get a CineDigitar to work (properly) with a 2.15 TR on a C3X. Isco IIIL doesn't have a lot of wiggle room with it and aperature is much, much larger than the Cinedigitar. I don't want to take the thread OT but thanks for the answer. Best, Scott

hi
very much time Schneider releases a lens a bit larger thanthe Cinedigitar
we all know the longer throws reduce brigthness capacity also.

Wolfgang,

There has been a lot of discussion about the use of DB in the Lumis and speculation that there is no BC. Is it possible for you to display the test pattern below on the Lumis?

http://public.csusm.edu/kai/mark/avs/20%20step%20greyscale%20-%20low%20APL.gif

This is a 1080p 20 step greyscale test pattern from 0-100 IRE in 5 IRE steps using very small rectangles, so that the overall APL is very low. When viewed on the Lumis the image should be very dark which should engage the iris and DB and thereby provide some strong clues as to what happens with the final image gamma displayed on the screen. Any BC will immediately be noticeable by a merging of one or more of the rectangles.

Mark, I think there will be some BC somewhere. I cant see otherwise tbh. It will be a question of how much, where and when and how noticeable.

Wolfgang actually posted a couple of images that showed some.

CM,
I was carefull not to mention about financial situation at wolf although I was suspecting that, I guess I am not as candid as you.
I would like to start a discussion on why we were made to believe until yet that a xenon bulb can only display a good picture.
Any comments.... anyone!
Ash
This subject was covered a lot in a thread on the 3000 plus forum some time back . One of the dscussions centered around xenon being more true in color than UHP and it is but then the subject of filtering was added which totally changed the landscape as to the color reproduction differences between the two.

Art

Regarding xenon vs UHP, there should be no difference in color performance for Rec 709 content, with three exceptions. The spectrum of xenon and UHP for a specific color within Rec 709 will be different, but should look the same.

The three exceptions are warm up requirement, stability, and response to dimming. Xenon requires no warm up for accurate color while UHP does. I don't know what this requirement is, but I am guessing about 20 minutes. UHP will require more frequent calibration because it will drift with age while xenon hardly drifts at all. The last is what happens when the lamp is dimmed. This could be a problem with UHP, but needs to be measured to be sure.

For content with a much larger color gamut than Rec 709, xenon is clearly better. Some think that this type of content will be available to us soon and others don't.

I would really be surprised if we have enough content that is outside 709 color space to care about in the next few years.

Art

i got the christie hd6km today and test it.

thank you norman for let me see this unit and i wish you
a soon recover.

short here the result.



http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3844.jpg

cr. is with iris off only arround 1600:1 and with dynamic iris 8700:1.

color is not as good as the lumis.

the pitures was made with a canon 5d mk1 camera full manual control and
i use the same settings to do this pictures.
the barco had a nd filter in front and both pr. had 31 ftl at the screen.
screen size was 5m.

first the christiehd 6km than the barco cinema dp 2000.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3850.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3851.jpg


may you should go back to page number 5 post 99 where i ask
" witch is witch" and compare how close my barco cinema unit is to the
sim2 lumis.
thats this time not the case.

color with the christie sure can get better when you did a calibration but
i doubt that cr. can be improved.



good thing about this christie is that the convergence is very good.
just up in the left there is red out about a half pixel
rest of the screen arround 0,25 pixel and almost perfect in the center.

the details in the face from this women in casino rojal
the christie show as good as my barco cinema dlp.
a clear advantage over the lumis.

the christie is bigger than the lumis and the noise level is
of course more as it have with about 5100lumen i measure at
d65 with 2 new lamps mutch more power.
you can hear the iris working inside a bit.

their is a bug when a black picture for about 10 or more sec. was displayed
and it change fast to a bright seq.than you can see
for about 1.5 sec. that the picture is very bad.
may you can see how this will look here.
first the good one and than the one with the bug.


http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3845.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3846.jpg


all in all the lumis have the better picture quality especially when sim2
can remove this filtering
that cause that faces are look as they remove all the details.

i know some one that have such a christie hd6km and he think the
measurment was not right when jason did it but
now as this unit have about the same nubers it seams that this
is normaly for this model at least at the moment.

Thanks Wolfgang. I would be interested to hear how that one scene where you found brightness compression on the truck with the Lumis, looks with the Christie. Other than the bug you mentioned above, do you see pumping with the iris on this one?

Thanks,
Darin

Wolfgang,
It looks like serious gamma issues with that last shot.Also as you said the color should be similar to your Barco with calibration.

There are surprisingly similar results in that frame between your projector and mine oceans away and different cameras despite Mercury vs Xenon, of course on a much much smaller screen.

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p146/CarlosMeat/ScreenShotWM01.jpg

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p146/CarlosMeat/ScreenshotCR1d.jpg

i got the christie hd6km today and test it.

thank you norman for let me see this unit and i wish you
a soon recover.

short here the result.



http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3844.jpg

cr. is with iris off only arround 1600:1 and with dynamic iris 8700:1.

color is not as good as the lumis.

the pitures was made with a canon 5d mk1 camera full manual control and
i use the same settings to do this pictures.
the barco had a nd filter in front and both pr. had 31 ftl at the screen.
screen size was 5m.

first the christiehd 6km than the barco cinema dp 2000.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3850.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3851.jpg


may you should go back to page number 5 post 99 where i ask
" witch is witch" and compare how close my barco cinema unit is to the
sim2 lumis.
thats this time not the case.

color with the christie sure can get better when you did a calibration but
i doubt that cr. can be improved.



good thing about this christie is that the convergence is very good.
just up in the left there is red out about a half pixel
rest of the screen arround 0,25 pixel and almost perfect in the center.

the details in the face from this women in casino rojal
the christie show as good as my barco cinema dlp.
a clear advantage over the lumis.

the christie is bigger than the lumis and the noise level is
of course more as it have with about 5100lumen i measure at
d65 with 2 new lamps mutch more power.
you can hear the iris working inside a bit.

their is a bug when a black picture for about 10 or more sec. was displayed
and it change fast to a bright seq.than you can see
for about 1.5 sec. that the picture is very bad.
may you can see how this will look here.
first the good one and than the one with the bug.


http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3845.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3846.jpg


all in all the lumis have the better picture quality especially when sim2
can remove this filtering
that cause that faces are look as they remove all the details.

i know some one that have such a christie hd6km and he think the
measurment was not right when jason did it but
now as this unit have about the same nubers it seams that this
is normaly for this model at least at the moment.

Hi Wolfgang, just to correct we all thought Jason did it quickly, and not accurately and without the proper measuring equipment, including Jason. I never thought Jason did not do the correct measurement :).

I am trying to have mine measured immediately as the CR level you found is quite disturbing

Thanks Wolfgang. I would be interested to hear how that one scene where you found brightness compression on the truck with the Lumis, looks with the Christie. Other than the bug you mentioned above, do you see pumping with the iris on this one?

Thanks,
Darin

darin

i not have the lumis anymore and the christie was alreay back in the box.

no pumping only this bug i post the picture i can see at many places
in a movie.

art

yes that proves that uhp lamp pr. can have very good xenon like color if
the pr. manufacturer know how to do it.

i had the sim2 5000 also with me and i remember very nice color.

seams that sim2 know how to do it.
the 3000e than the 5000 and now the lumis!

oh btw i not realize since today that you have far more muscles
than i have:)

Jim Burns wrote a letter explaining that "due to the current economic condition other courses of action were worth pursuing".

Well CM paint a wolf effigy on the side of the LUMIS as a first kill reminder of the projector wars of 2009.

:confused: "Too busy building projectors" to sell people here on these hush boxed Christies.

A letter?

Thanks for taking the time to post Wolfgang.

Jim

all in all the lumis have the better picture quality especially when sim2
can remove this filtering
that cause that faces are look as they remove all the details.

Wolfgang, are you saying that it is possible that the noise reduction settings you had utilized on the Lumis can be modified or somehow the video processing turned off or that it is possible with some future fix to the Sim2 firmware?

Mark, I think there will be some BC somewhere. I cant see otherwise tbh. It will be a question of how much, where and when and how noticeable.


That's the beauty of that small APL greyscale. It's immediately obvious how much and where, although the "when's" and "how noticeable" are dependent on the specific source content.

Wolfgang, are you saying that it is possible that the noise reduction settings you had utilized on the Lumis can be modified or somehow the video processing turned off or that it is possible with some future fix to the Sim2 firmware?

I believe Wolfgang reduced the NR to zero. The recommended setting, as I posted earlier, is 24. The NR slider isn't simply an incremental control. I have been told that swinging either side employs different techniques in differing amounts. If I go high or low I can see the difference instantly.

Its similar in principle to the sharpness setting, in that 0 is NOT the null setting. 10 is the default setting for sharpness.

I am trying to have mine measured immediately as the CR level you found is quite disturbing

Lon, I'm not sure why the number is disturbing.

The machine has a CR spec of 2.5k min and 10k max. I understood that to be 2k without DI and 10K with the DI. Thats a pretty normal ratio.

I believe the 2.5k CR number is so low due to the opening of the apperture for max light.

Wolfgang's CR numbers are within the normal margin of error for the specification. I know of another owner, and his unit is just under 9k. Any manufacturer delivering 90% of the spec number is a very rare thing indeed.

The machine has a CR spec of 2k min and 10k max. Thats 2k without DI and 10K with the DI. I believe the CR number is so low due to it being optimized for max light.

Wolfgang's CR numbers are within the normal margin of error for the specification. I know of another ownwr and his unit is around 9k. Personally I believe any manufacturer delivering 90% of the spec number is a very rare thing indeed.

my experience with christie is that are all numbers very conservative.

for sample if they spec. the hd6km with min. 2500:1 cr. normally
you will found least 2700:1.

thats not the case this time with this pr.and as you report now a other unit with the same number it seams that my test unit is not brocken.

ljg did you can see the same bug?
i drive it with this settings.
dynamic iris on.
dark seq.

to bad for me.
i had hope that this pr. can be the pr. i wait for
but i seams i have to wait ontill sim2 will have a pr. with the same
technology the lumis have but with mutch more light out.

Come on Wolfgang... double or triple stack the Lumis'.. You are the digital projector stack master!!:)

Come on Wolfgang... double or triple stack the Lumis'.. You are the digital projector stack master!!:)

thats a good one :) :):)

you know may i will try a double stack truly.

thats a good one :) :):)

you know may i will try a double stack truly.

Nobody here would be surprised and many would certainly like to read about it...;)

The HD6K-M CR spec is 2500-10,000:1. This is probably not at D65, so it will be lower after calibration. The 2500:1 should be with the iris fully open, but it has other manual positions. What is it at the smallest manual setting? I was expecting about 5000-6000:1. Also, a 10,000:1 dynamic implementation should be artifact free.

Lon, I'm not sure why the number is disturbing.

The machine has a CR spec of 2.5k min and 10k max. I understood that to be 2k without DI and 10K with the DI. Thats a pretty normal ratio.

I believe the 2.5k CR number is so low due to the opening of the apperture for max light.

Wolfgang's CR numbers are within the normal margin of error for the specification. I know of another owner, and his unit is just under 9k. Any manufacturer delivering 90% of the spec number is a very rare thing indeed.

CM:

How is 1600:1 CR with Iris open within 10% of CR spec which is 2500:1 with Iris open?

Furthermore and most troubling is with the Manual iris set to 42 the CR only improved to 1800:1

I need to measure my own unit, but Jason reminded me that we initially got similar numbers on CR with Iris open..

I passed this info on to Christie and they have said "something is not right" , they would like more detailed information on measurements and techique.

THEY HAVE NOT SAID THESE NUMBERS FALL WITHIN SPEC

CM:

How is 1600:1 CR with Iris open within 10% of CR spec which is 2500:1 with Iris open?

Lon, I was clearly referring to the 9k number. That, within normal margins of measurement error for the 8700, is 90% of spec.

A number around 2k with the iris open doesn't surprise me either. Its just open wider for max light.

As Odyssey said, the spec numbers are unlikely to have been at d65 anyway

I don't see the contrast numbers, of between 2k and 9k, being anything other than what would reasonably be expected for that machine. Thats still far closer to spec than the vast majority of units.

W.Mayer
Wouldn´t stacking kill too much of the nice benfits of the sharp image a single SIM 2 Lumis is capable of projecting?

coldmachine
Do you expect Sim2 to ever go above 5000 ANSI lumen? Traditionally they have stopped just shy of the real big iron projectors.

The very high lumen projectors are not capable of high on/off or ANSI it seems if your read the specs from Christe for example. ANSI it not even close to 1000:1 and brightnes uniformity is a bit lower.

coldmachine
Do you expect Sim2 to ever go above 5000 ANSI lumen? Traditionally they have stopped just shy of the real big iron projectors.

My guess is that they will at some point fairly soon. It certainly makes sense, some of those "big iron" companies are way too comfortable.

The HD6K-M CR spec is 2500-10,000:1. This is probably not at D65, so it will be lower after calibration. The 2500:1 should be with the iris fully open, but it has other manual positions. What is it at the smallest manual setting? I was expecting about 5000-6000:1. Also, a 10,000:1 dynamic implementation should be artifact free.As far as a 10k:1 DI being artifact free, if it starts at 2k:1 then that would be a 5x multiplier and I think that would be difficult to do without visible artifacts. If it was more like a 3x multiplier (like native of 3k:1-3.5k:1) then I think that would be more reasonable as far as expecting it to be artifact free. I suspect that the higher the native on/off CR the higher the multiplier to dynamic on/off CR can go without visible artifacts (all else being equal), but I don't have any proof of that and would have to think about it some more to be more sure.

--Darin

Darin,

I am thinking about something like the TI Dynamic Black and not processing images with full white content beyond a few pixels. The CR range is very similar to that of the projector reviewed by Greg R. and he said no artifacts.

I am thinking about something like the TI Dynamic Black and not processing images with full white content beyond a few pixels. The CR range is very similar to that of the projector reviewed by Greg R. and he said no artifacts.I'm guessing you are talking about the Planar 8150. I don't see what Greg measured for a multiplier with that one, but my memory is that it was under 4x (he measured 2610:1 without the DI at max throw and didn't report 10k:1 dynamic from what I recall).

I talked to one of the main designers of that projector about their DI implementation for quite a while and he told me they spent about 8 months getting it right. He also wouldn't have been comfortable with a 5x multiplier at that time, based on our discussion and I don't believe they even went up to 4x. I did some quick measurements on one and my memory is that it was around 3x (with Greg measuring 3.something x).

It also looked pretty artifact free to me, but Tom Norton reported that there was a scene in The Golden Compass that showed a problem (pumping IIRC). I haven't seen that scene with that projector myself though.

--Darin

I think that Greg reported about 8500:1 dynamic. The HD6K-M seems to be 4x, if the specs are right. It's possible that the 2500:1 spec is with an iris more open than usual. Something does seem to be wrong with the manual iris implementation and I am waiting for information from Christie.

yes that proves that uhp lamp pr. can have very good xenon like color if
the pr. manufacturer know how to do it.

i had the sim2 5000 also with me and i remember very nice color.

seams that sim2 know how to do it.
the 3000e than the 5000 and now the lumis!



Im sure a certain person will find those comments about as welcome as the application of a gallon of Tabasco sauce to the Sphincter ani externus.

Its is entirely possible that said person may actually invite such application, so the analogy may be fundamentally flawed.

I think we can assume that you will no longer be on certain Christmas card lists.:D

If denouncing Taiwanese substandard projectors is taking me off your mailing lists so be it.

You 2 need to get a fricken room together already

If denouncing Taiwanese substandard projectors is taking me off your mailing lists so be it.

You seem to have misunderstood the last line of that post. I've clarified it for you.

Whilst it lacks the elegance of the original, it has an unsophisticated simplicity with which you should feel great affinity.:)

Wolfgang,
It looks like serious gamma issues with that last shot.Also as you said the color should be similar to your Barco with calibration.

There are surprisingly similar results in that frame between your projector and mine oceans away and different cameras despite Mercury vs Xenon, of course on a much much smaller screen.

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p146/CarlosMeat/ScreenShotWM01.jpg

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p146/CarlosMeat/ScreenshotCR1d.jpg

Btw, here is the original frame if you want to compare. :cool:

http://www.digitalanime.com.br/bond.bmp

i got the christie hd6km today and test it.

thank you norman for let me see this unit and i wish you
a soon recover.

short here the result.

We can really see big differences here (at least for the two first photos).

Thanks!

You 2 need to get a fricken room together already

Prometheus, Helene, what's the next moon, Honey...:rolleyes:.

You 2 need to get a fricken room together already

I'm surprised you have the time to be concerned about other people, don't you have a spec sheet to cry over?:D

I'm surprised you have the time to be concerned about other people, don't you have a spec sheet to cry over?:D

Nope CM, it is what it is what it is, life is too short to sweat the little things.

Nope CM, it is what it is what it is, life is too short to sweat the little things.

Come on. You are still crying over the Cardinals being in the Super Bowl and the Giants being out!!!

Nope CM, it is what it is what it is, life is too short to sweat the little things.

Amen to that.

If you are getting around 9k and enough light, doesn't that mean the unit is performing as advertised?

Amen to that.

If you are getting around 9k and enough light, doesn't that mean the unit is performing as advertised?

CM:

I can't answer for my unit yet, I am having A Christie Tech measure its on/off CR, but the unit Wolfgang Meyer demo'd was not any way near spec. Christie Spec is 2000 MINIMUM, 2500 NOMINAL for ON/OFF without the DI. The manual iris also was noTperforming any where near spec. Also of concern is the operation of the manual Iris, 1600:1 fully open vs Manual Iris set to 42 and reading 1800:1 is problematic.

Having said that I am of the belief my unit will test pretty much the same as Wolfgang's because durong the initial setup Jason had very similar measurements.

I need to see what Christie says after they receive real numbers from my unit.

BUT, it is what it is, and if nothing can be done, nothing can be done......

Wolfgang,
It looks like serious gamma issues with that last shot.Also as you said the color should be similar to your Barco with calibration.

There are surprisingly similar results in that frame between your projector and mine oceans away and different cameras despite Mercury vs Xenon, of course on a much much smaller screen.

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p146/CarlosMeat/ScreenShotWM01.jpg

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p146/CarlosMeat/ScreenshotCR1d.jpg

W. Mayer

Was your screenshot taken with the same Barco pr you compared to the Lumis or was that a different Barco model?

BTW, this is one of my all time favorite screenies, along with the one of the rebel alliance ship with your wife and girl standing in the hallway (or at least it looked that way:p).

Dont' worry Art, I think you can still take him in a cagematch

Usually projectors DON'T perform to spec when measured in an final install location. I have seen this over and over. Remember the specs are best case scenarios with the most "perfect" environment. Even Alan's and my Lumis measurements weren't at spec (but it still performed extremely well!).

Wolfgang's measurements have always exceeded Christie's specs, till now.

Dont' worry Art, I think you can still take him in a cagematch

Well I got that going for me.:D

Art

W. Mayer

Was your screenshot taken with the same Barco pr you compared to the Lumis or was that a different Barco model?

BTW, this is one of my all time favorite screenies, along with the one of the rebel alliance ship with your wife and girl standing in the hallway (or at least it looked that way:p).

Dont' worry Art, I think you can still take him in a cagematch

yes that the same pr. but this screenshot i take long time ago and this time the barco had a other light enigne inside.
i cant remember it was with the color calibration from barco itself or
not and i cant remember if i use modifiy cinema color when i take this
picture or d65 color.
some time at some movies i use this cinema colors the barco have
and modify it to get better looking colors.
also some time i drive it at original d65 color and gamma.

I just received word from Christie Canada about new software release for DI, I will download later when I get home. It is release 1.3.3 and is said to help with the DI issues...

you are not open for news that for some reason you not like or not understand or not belief or whatever.

I'm not very open to hype and numbers that don't add up. Present a case that makes consistent sense and I'm all 'eyes'.

you are keeping a crt pr. longer than anybody else and till you got your
jvc you always sad the all digital pr. are not good at all.

And they WERE no good at all where it mattered to me. Black levels and depth with dark material. Unlike you I had and have no 7m screen to light up so I do not need a light cannon to have an image at all, with all the compromises they bring. There are plenty of people who still use CRT, by the way (visit the CRT forum and you will see). I can't because my screen is too large now and stacking/blending is not my thing.

now as you have a jvc lcos you reaktion is now that you are against
all dlp pr.or at least to this new lumis 3chip dlp.

I'm not against any technology that meets my needs. That's why I switched to a D-ILA. When DLP does visibly better where it counts to me and I can justify the price-performance ratio I switch to DLP. No problem.

CM..... It's a Western European thing...you need to stay out:D

CM..... It's a Western European thing...you need to stay out:D

Looks like I was ejected anyway Joey:D

the software the hd6 have was 1.3.2

it was told to me that when the dealer update this unit on this wednesday
that this is the lates one.

Btw, here is the original frame if you want to compare. :cool:

http://www.digitalanime.com.br/bond.bmp

wow, the detail is incredible. I assume it's not just the quality of the camera taking the picture.

wow, the detail is incredible. I assume it's not just the quality of the camera taking the picture.

he said original frame, as in it was taken direct from the source, no display or camera involved.

I wasn't sure if he had to take a picture of the original frame or if it was imported directly into the thread. Looks amazing anyway.

here are all the shots together. if anything, we see that calibrated colours (at least how the camera views them) are actually a little hot in the reds and a little weak in the deep greens.
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_00GsoGQiAxU/SYU-eqA5j9I/AAAAAAAAAJQ/5oePgz58AL0/comparison.jpg
Of course these are only screen shots, and in no way indicative of what is actually seen.

Overall though, one has to say the images are excellent.

here are all the shots together. if anything, we see that calibrated colours (at least how the camera views them) are actually a little hot in the reds and a little weak in the deep greens.
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_00GsoGQiAxU/SYU-eqA5j9I/AAAAAAAAAJQ/5oePgz58AL0/comparison.jpg
Of course these are only screen shots, and in no way indicative of what is actually seen.

Overall though, one has to say the images are excellent.

It isn't opening for me...

Dizzman's image server is kinda wonky...

Here's the image:

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/83/comparisondz6.jpg

Look at the color accuracy on those guns! :D

seams this i a big discussion about color screen shots lately.

i will post a new picture that show d 65 at 709 color and normaly gamma
and may some more.

seams this i a big discussion about color screen shots lately.

i will post a new picture that show d 65 at 709 color and normaly gamma
and may some more.

Thanks ! I can do the same. That was just a picture of me coming up short on screen size. I just thought that it was interesting that except for some minor green and blue differences that the they looked like that despite cameras ,conditions ,calibrations etc etc. If I posted ten with my Canon Rebel they would all have significant differences I've seen it many times.

My thing with screen shots is if used to compare same room, same camera, for some things they are very telling. For exposure light output, gamma, shadow detail, for example , they are not.

Art

Dizzman's image server is kinda wonky...

Here's the image:

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/83/comparisondz6.jpg

Look at the color accuracy on those guns! :D


I thought he was posting screen grabs ?

i took the image grab posted above and then just put them all together in one image. i warped the screen grab to make it seem as similar as i could.

i meant in no way to infer that colour was off. as a matter of fact, i kind of like the screen shots over the screen grab.

but that is the whole thing about accuracy over good.

Can you tell me are any of the above pictures from the Lumis, if so which one. Thanks Greg

None, the middle is a photoshpped capture by Dizz...

here a new picture.

pioneer bd 71 player at 24p direct to the denon a1 to the barco cinema pr.
use d65 rec 709 with a bit recuce color saturation at the bd player.

are the direct picture from gradius2 from a blue ray or cinema content?

in the left uper corner you can see the sky and i never saw at any high end set up the sky looks in this peculiar blue.
may you can tell how you do it.

art you are right about this:
"My thing with screen shots is if used to compare same room, same camera, for some things they are very telling. For exposure light output, gamma, shadow detail, for example , they are not."

i have a nice picture i do only for you but i not will post it here.
but you will get it:)



http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3894.jpg

Excellent shot Wolfgang ! Very close to the screen grab. Do you need sunglasses too ?:)

Art

You will need the INTEL MonsterVs Aliens glasses for this.

3D (http://www.vimeo.com/3047573)

are the direct picture from gradius2 from a blue ray or cinema content?

Hi W.Mayer,

It's direct from blu-ray, the only difference is it was downsized to 720p (~1280x720), but w/o any black bars on screen.

Real original is 1920x1080, but should be no loss (colors, aspects in general, etc) here, it was just downsized.

Grats on your photo, very close indeed.

Anyone have any idea when the production Lumis's will begin to be delivered?

I believe they just started shipping.

Could you please repost the lumis picture for comparason. Thanks Greg

Excellent shot Wolfgang ! Very close to the screen grab. Do you need sunglasses too ?:)

Art

hi art

as my 4000 watt xenon lamp have now almost 300 hours for the
first time i can see this picture below 30 ftl (arround 27ftl)

but as this is in min. lamp power i can still go up with max. lamp
power to arround 52 ftl if i like:)

i try that level several times.
it looks great very nice if the source material is very good and if the movie
show all the time bright seq.

its not nice when the source switch between bright and dark seq. as it arduous to the eye.

i feel very pleasant if i runn it at arround 27 to max. 35 ftl.

more i not like but below 25 ftl its hard for me as well.

the good thing about this level is that your pupil even in dark seq.
not go up and therefore the black level looks still very nice.

thats by the way a good sample why numbers are not always tell
everything.
no instrument have a pupil that go up and down but our eye works this way:)

hi art

as my 4000 watt xenon lamp have now almost 300 hours for the
first time i can see this picture below 30 ftl (arround 27ftl)

but as this is in min. lamp power i can still go up with max. lamp
power to arround 52 ftl if i like:)

i try that level several times.
it looks great very nice if the source material is very good and if the movie
show all the time bright seq.

its not nice when the source switch between bright and dark seq. as it arduous to the eye.

i feel very pleasant if i runn it at arround 27 to max. 35 ftl.

more i not like but below 25 ftl its hard for me as well.

the good thing about this level is that your pupil even in dark seq.
not go up and therefore the black level looks still very nice.

thats by the way a good sample why numbers are not always tell
everything.
no instrument have a pupil that go up and down but our eye works this way:)

I've noticed that myself with my system. I had 10fL with my CRTs and 24fL with my DLP . When it drops to full black out it still looks pretty black due to the effect you mention. Of course ,when that adaptation doesn't occur you can see that the blacks are raised but that as an issue comes up less than I would have expected.

Art

I've noticed that myself with my system. I had 10fL with my CRTs and 24fL with my DLP . When it drops to full black out it still looks pretty black due to the effect you mention. Of course ,when that adaptation doesn't occur you can see that the blacks are raised but that as an issue comes up less than I would have expected.


It seems mostly noticable in preview movie trailers

Anyone have any idea when the production Lumis's will begin to be delivered?

serial production starts this monday already so first shipment
should be next week from sim2 italy out.

some units are already in us but they need some upgrade before ship.

i will get my unit latest 17th febr.may some days earlier.

seams sim2 have a big backlog but thats no surprise for me:)

Which post number on this thread had the Lumis picture? Thanks

A trick question? I'll try; #1.

:)

YEAHHH BABY YEEEEEAAAAAHHHHHH!

Care to start an owner's thread, Phil? Screenshots? Comments?

Started the owners thread. Will take some time before I give my observations. I need to allow it to settle in, as I usually am rather dissatisfied with every new projector I get for some reason. I think I tend to set my expectations way too high. :confused:

Started the owners thread. Will take some time before I give my observations. I need to allow it to settle in, as I usually am rather dissatisfied with every new projector I get for some reason. I think I tend to set my expectations way too high. :confused:

Well, you will have to allow it to "burn in" of course!

Looking forward to your observations...

Sean

did Greg Rogers test the CHRISTIE HD6KM ??