i got yesterday the sim2 lumis 3 chip dlp pr.
that get a lot of attention after alan and cm get
the units and report about it.

the unit i have is like the others not a series unit
but a unit that have some news inside the 2 other units not
have.
its a good runing enegineiring sample not for sale only for demo.

optic is t2.

a technician from sim2 was with me.


i measure all numbers in the biggest
picture the optic can do.



http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_3657.JPG



i found 1900 center lumen at d 65.

cr. is 18000:1 with db on and 5300:1 with db off.

color looks very good right out the box but i am sure a real
perfect calibration will give a better result but may cost 5% light out
as the pr. was very good already.
the pr. have the software inside to calibrate it perfect.
its nice to see how good this uhp lamps can get.

convergence is not to good.
in the center almost perfect left about 0,75 out red and
right is 1 pixel out also red.
also top and down red is out by 0,75 pixels.

beside "pixel to pixel" all other aspect ratio settings show big over scan.

so number wise this unit is behind the 2 units cm and alan have.

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_3671.JPG

it was told from sim2 to me that there are some reasons that are.

-this unit have a new road integrator and therefore the cr. and light out
numbers
are about 25% lower than the 2 other units.
this will change with the delivery of the series units and they will
put new parts inside that match better with the new road integrator.

- the manual iris is not working at all so we simply dont know in what
position
it is at the moment.

- last but important no one know how many hours the lamp have but we guess
between 300-500.
sad that they reset the lamp timer that show 1 hour but this lamp runs
since
long time at sim2 lab.


more important as counting numbers is how the picture looks.


http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_3676.JPG

I NOT LIKE SCREEN SHOTS AS I POST MANY TIMES HERE.

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_3680.JPG


as you can see in the pictures we have a jvc rs20 and a lumis at the 7m
screen at the same time.
both display a about 3m wide picture simultaneous.
i measure the on off cr. from the rs 20 with 26000:1 (iris open for max.
light out)
but the lumis is more than double as bright even when you dim the lamp to
min. down
when you have db on.

i watch about 1 hour long Casino Royal and i can say that only some very few
sequences
the rs 20 is on pair with the "visible cr." (with the eye) the lumis show.

in 99% of all material the lumis beat the jvc in cr.(visible) because of
much higher ansi cr. this unit have.
(guess the lumis have close to 1000:1 ansi cr.)

light out wise the jvc is far behind the lumis and sharpness 3d looking all
this show the lumis in a
very very high quality much better than the jvc.

for the first time ever since i sale my g90 stack i saw i picture with a
digital pr. that have no haze on.
very clear even in very dark sequences.

and this even with the lower number compare to the 2 other units:)

i can keep this pr. till monday morning so i will do some other tests
as well.

i think this pr. is a big step up in picture quality and when sim2 hold
there promise that
the series unit will be have the cr. and lumen the 2 units alan and cm have
this unit is a must have pr. when you can afford it.

it should have enough light to drive a 1.0 gain screen till to 5m wide
if the room is dark.
that gives you when the series units have 2200 lumen around 14 ftl with a
new lamp.

sad for me is that the light out is not what i need to drive my big 7m
screen.

as i like it bright i need around 7000 better 9000 lumen to have my goal at
bigger than 27 ftl.

but lets see.....

Thanks Wolfgang ! This really is looking consistant with Alan and CM.

Art

Nice work!

It is hard to tell from the picture... Is there any problem getting an ISCO III lens up close to Lumis's len? Does the chassis of the projector interfere??


So, it sounds like with a 1.3 gain 14 ft wide (4.5 meter) microperf, I should have a enough light if it is not zoomed...

Thanks!

Looks like I have find my next PJ.. Thanks guys, Alan, CM, Wolfgang... Great review.. I will put off the JVC acquisition I was contemplating...

I'm in Naples (Fla) right now and SIM2 is nearby with a Lumis (talked to rep)... I might want to take a drive...

I can't move on it any time soon, but in your opinion Wolfgang, would the Lumis be a good combo for an ISCOIII and an AT 2.35 screen that's 16' wide? Thanks

Tkx for this great review.
Have you tried playing some sequences with DB off to assess the benefit of Dynamic black.

Mayer your theater is starting to look like mine with cables and boxes all over from testing. I need to give it a good cleaning soon.




Regarding questioning the use of the Isco 3 with the Lumis it works just fine with plenty of aperture that allows for it to be placed a few inches away from the Lumis and it still works fine.








.

Nice work!

It is hard to tell from the picture... Is there any problem getting an ISCO III lens up close to Lumis's len? Does the chassis of the projector interfere??

I had no problem with an ISCOIII.

Sim2 design with them in mind from day 1.

Wolfgang, thanks for posting.

If you are at 1900 lumen after 300-500 hours, I'd guess that your unit would even be brighter than Alans 2242 lumen. Mine was just under 2100, but had over 100hrs run

Good to see that the production units will have higher contrast. On that note....If your iris is not being powered, it should be fully open. If that's the case then your CR would be 20k. The 25% will restore that to Alans number.

I have to agree with your overall conclusion. It certainly is the most engaging image I have yet seen.

I cant wait to see this technology migrate, both upwards and downwards in the price range.

Tkx for this great review.
Have you tried playing some sequences with DB off to assess the benefit of Dynamic black.

yes i did.

i cant see any decrease in picture quality
so i let now always db on.

seams db not change the picture when the picture is bright only when its
dark.

its a big increase in 3d looking and have mutch better blacks.

so far i cant see any bugs or the adaptive system working.

I cant wait to see this technology migrate, both upwards and downwards in the price range.

me too:)

Wolfgang

Thank you for your detailed report, this projector sounds like a winner, pushing SOTA in this pricepoint and technology. I'll be awaiting my T2 anxiously!

Count me in. :-)

a technician from sim2 was with me.


i measure all numbers in the biggest
picture the optic can do.



http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/509/IMG_3657.JPG



i found 1900 center lumen at d 65.



Her center is pretty hot at D65!!!

Is she the technician from Sim2? Does she stay with the projector? Or does she have to go back to Sim2?

I have to agree with your overall conclusion. It certainly is the most engaging image I have yet seen.
Really, even more so than the HT5000? This definitely seems like the pj to beat.

Thanks for the screenshots Wolfgang, I think the relative intrascene contrast and lumen output between the 2 projectors is very telling.

Very interesting comparison. As has been discussed many times, a side by side comparison will nearly always favor the brighter projector even though there are many other aspects to picture quality. This is because the perceived brightness is always impacted by the dynamic iris of the eye. Obviously the Lumis can drive a larger screen size. For a smaller screen size in a light controlled environment, it would be most interested to perform a blinded comparison between the projectors. Obviously the Lumis would likely be judged sharper, but I'm not sure perceived contrast comparisons would be the same as in this side-by-side review.

Wolfgang,

The images from the RS20 looks much to dark, almost like it's miscalibrated. Even my lowly single chip DLP looks much better. Can you check to see if it performing properly.

No offense, but I'm sure no RS20 owners would calibrate to produce outdoor daylight scenes that looked that dark . That's mid afternoon sun....

JC

I am sure the RS20 is properly calibrated, just looks dark in comparison to the Lumis.

I am sure the RS20 is properly calibrated, just looks dark in comparison to the Lumis.

I agree, the camera's the one setting the exposure, I'm sure if it was set with exposure settings to make the RS20 brighter or appear 'normal', the Lumis would appear with severely blown out whites.

I am sure the Lumis looks better than the RS20, but to be fair, you shouldn't even watch them side by side like that, because your eye does the same thing that the camera does, and the RS20 will look much dimmer, than it actually is, side by side with the Lumis. Probably better to switch back and forth, and give your eyes time to adjust.

What I like to do, is to switch projectors, while keeping my eyes shut for a minute or so, then open them. It is kind of like cleansing the pallete, between tasting two wines.:)

Really, even more so than the HT5000? This definitely seems like the pj to beat.

For some installs, the HT5k may give more light with its constant apperture. Its optics also offer a slightly cleaner image. Overall, however, the Lumis provides a better image.

A word of caution to prospective HT5k owners who may now look to the Lumis...........it may be prudent to wait. I have a feeling that the HT5k will be up-gunned pretty soon.

Very interesting comparison. As has been discussed many times, a side by side comparison will nearly always favor the brighter projector even though there are many other aspects to picture quality. This is because the perceived brightness is always impacted by the dynamic iris of the eye. Obviously the Lumis can drive a larger screen size. For a smaller screen size in a light controlled environment, it would be most interested to perform a blinded comparison between the projectors. Obviously the Lumis would likely be judged sharper, but I'm not sure perceived contrast comparisons would be the same as in this side-by-side review.

H....Having shot them on different screens and brightness normalized, I can assure you that there is a major difference between the 2 machines Wolfgang mentions. It had nothing whatsoever to do with brightness. The contrast difference that you seem to question is very obvious indeed, in almost every scene.

A blind comparison would be pointless , and actually impossible, as it is instantly obvious, across a number of PQ metrics, which machine is which.

The 2 machines simply don't warrant direct comparison, they are simply in different markets in terms of PQ, performance and price. Thats why I didn't go into detail on my report. The only reason I used one was because it was to hand and would provide a datum by which to test contrast. A fairer comparison for the Lumis would be to other 3 chip units.

There are only a handful of people here who's eye, and opinion, I really trust and would consider bankable. I wont embarrass them by naming them, but Wolfgang is certainly one of them.

If you, or anyone else, do want more info on a comparison with the 2 PJs that Wolfgang mentions, just let me know.

Her center is pretty hot at D65!!!

Is she the technician from Sim2? Does she stay with the projector? Or does she have to go back to Sim2?

no she is since 17 years with me:)

oh by the way when my first daougther was burn her 3th word
she can speek after mom and dad was "beamer":)
this is true no joke.


about the rs20 compare.

i use this pr. because i have one and it have a very good picture quality.
at the set up with this 2 pr. side by side yes the rs20 is dimer but
as gino aus say:
"I agree, the camera's the one setting the exposure, I'm sure if it was set with exposure settings to make the RS20 brighter or appear 'normal', the Lumis would appear with severely blown out whites."

i have such pictures but i can tell you see it with the eyes is not any problem
and show very nice the difference between them.
i hate screen shots and i did only this picture as this can give you a
impression how i make the set up.
chapter 8 from casion rojal (the model train) is the best test for it.

the lumis is the first pr. that show this sequenz without any haze.
even the rs20 have some haze on it in this seq. even if the on off cr.
was arround 40% more.

i think i forgeth to mention that the lumis have only vertical shift that works
manually and no horizontally.

the more i work with the unit the more i like it.
it will be hard for me to give the pr. back as i get use to the good
quality this pr. can offer.

nice i have the possibility to see soon a hd6km from christie that
have also db inside.
it will be interresting to see if this unit offers also such black level
in combination with high light out and a better optic.

W.Mayer
I hear you that DB on is a no brainer since it does not introduce artifacts. If we were to change the perspective. How mach is gained with DB on? Is it marginal or a big improvement. Then is this improvement only for certain scenes?
I hope the Christie will not disappoint.

cr. is 18000:1 with db on and 5300:1 with db off.

How exactly does DB work on this projector?

convergence is not to good.

How good is convergence on your RS20?

we have a jvc rs20 and a lumis at the 7m
screen at the same time.
both display a about 3m wide picture simultaneous.

That favours the brighter projector, of course. If you project pure black, the JVC measures about 1/4 of the SIM?

light out wise the jvc is far behind the lumis and sharpness 3d looking all
this show the lumis in a
very very high quality much better than the jvc.

I hope it looks better for the price and with ANSI dominated material.

for the first time ever since i sale my g90 stack i saw i picture with a
digital pr. that have no haze on.
very clear even in very dark sequences.

Sorry, there is haze on any 18000:1 projector independent of ANSI. It just needs the
right material to see it. But most material is mixed enoug to look hazefree indeed.
Once SIM have native On-Off like the JVC, are cheaper as now and use LED such a projector could be an option to me.

Woilfgang thanks once again. I remember vividly how great that traion shot looks on CRTs. It is very low APL with lots of detail. In fact I used that specifically as a demo before I switched out to the HT 5000.

Another is the night chase scene in Butch Cassidy (now on BD). Although you are oner ogf tyhe most trstworthy forum members on projector matter I still would love to see one myself first.

If CM is right a DB 5000 offspring might be a better fit .

Art

Woilfgang thanks once again. I remember vividly how great that traion shot looks on CRTs. It is very low APL with lots of detail. In fact I used that specifically as a demo before I switched out to the HT 5000.

Another is the night chase scene in Butch Cassidy (now on BD). Although you are oner ogf tyhe most trstworthy forum members on projector matter I still would love to see one myself first.

If CM is right a DB 5000 offspring might be a better fit .

Art

You know.. I asked the SIM2 rep here in Fla yesterday about a replacement of the HT 5000. He said, 'we just did a lot of upgrades on it' and 'their are no plans in the near future to remake the HT 5000 with similar [Lumis] technology'..

Who knows?

I didn't get a chance to see it yesterday.. weather was too nice for a 2 hr drive from my hotel..

You know.. I asked the SIM2 rep here in Fla yesterday about a replacement of the HT 5000. He said, 'we just did a lot of upgrades on it' and 'their are no plans in the near future to remake the HT 5000 with similar [Lumis] technology'..

Who knows?

I didn't get a chance to see it yesterday.. weather was too nice for a 2 hr drive from my hotel..

You kind of expect reps to say this. Imagine if they went arond telling everyone "yes, we plan on releasing an HT5000 with all the new Lumis technology soon" Wouldn't the knock-on effect be that it would be harder to sell their existing Ht5K inventory? Perhaps not, Sim were openly talking about the C3X 1080 replacement for some time before it's release.

From all the praise by the learned folks here, an HT5K with the Lumis technology would be a killer machine!

Sean

You kind of expect reps to say this. Imagine if they went arond telling everyone "yes, we plan on releasing an HT5000 with all the new Lumis technology soon" Wouldn't the knock-on effect be that it would be harder to sell their existing Ht5K inventory? Perhaps not, Sim were openly talking about the C3X 1080 replacement for some time before it's release.

From all the praise by the learned folks here, an HT5K with the Lumis technology would be a killer machine!

Sean

I don't disagree (sorry about the double-negative). Just repeating the conversation.:)

You know.. I asked the SIM2 rep here in Fla yesterday about a replacement of the HT 5000. He said, 'we just did a lot of upgrades on it' and 'their are no plans in the near future to remake the HT 5000 with similar [Lumis] technology'

He needs to be force fed the contents of his grandmothers colostomy bag.

Maybe he already has, because that's certainly some seriously unprocessed shite hes spouting. Pretty standard for a rep.

I don't disagree (sorry about the double-negative). Just repeating the conversation.:)

I know :) it's all any of us can do most of the time! Sim just released the *new* HT5000E, but the only updates I am aware of to that is HDMI 1.3?

As has been said already, the HT5K will still have it's place, but I am amazed how good the Lumis is proving to be for people. I think it is fair to say that the gap between the two products (Lumis > 5k) is much smaller than the previous C3X?

He needs to be force fed the contents of his grandmothers colostomy bag.

Maybe he already has, because that's certainly some seriously unprocessed shite hes spouting. Pretty standard for a rep.

Come on... I'm on vacation, awaiting breakfast and looking at the beautiful Florida coastline in front of my Mac...Hot coffee and the NYTIMES (but I'm not a lberal).... Then, I get this picture of a colostomy bag and there goes my appetite!!!:D

Oh well, the coffee is still good.

Boy, is it me or is Naples the Viagra capitol of the world.. A lot of old folks!

Viagra capitol of the world

They prefer the sunshine State!

Boy, is it me or is Naples the Viagra capitol of the world.. A lot of old folks!

It certainly is.

That gentle rustling sound that you hear when you're taking your coffee outside, isn't the rustling of leaves.

Its some old fossil dragging his scrotum along the sidewalk.:D

I was at the Sim Suite filled with Sim personnel in Vegas.
They showed me the Lumis but steered me towards the HT 5000 E.
At first I could not believe that the little Lumis was looking way better than the 5000 E.
When I questioned this, Sim sales guys told me that the 5000E is better looking but it is operating in the entrance room with much more light and interference.
I was also told that the Lumis is not bright enough for me and cannot handle my 25 foot throw on a 12 foot wide 2:35 At screen.
This was until Alan Ruse stepped in and told me that Lumis will work for me and the T3 lens is a few weeks away.
As I have reported before, this is the case of a lower price point product cannibalizing on thier marquee.
It is very good for Sim to introduce a stellar projector at this price point in this economy as most people are holding on to thier cash and not spending.
Ash

Wolfgang, thank you very much for making the effort to share your experience with the Lumis, and I appreciate the comparisons to the RS20.

My only gripe with my current projector (C3X1080) has been the on/off contrast and the haze on low APL scenes; it sounds like the Lumis would address that nicely.

HI Wolfgang:

Great review of the Lumis, when you mention haze I am not entirely sure I know what you mean do you have any screen shots showing Haze vs Non-Haze.

What I noticed is so much less dithering in low apl scenes with the HD6K-M, perhaps that is what you refer to as haze? I think we may be seeing the same thing. Perhaps it is my mistake and I am noticing less haze and mis-labeling as dither?

It was the first thing I noticed

He needs to be force fed the contents of his grandmothers colostomy bag.

Maybe he already has, because that's certainly some seriously unprocessed shite hes spouting. Pretty standard for a rep.


You are a true artist, in regard to your application of the English language. Your posts are quite colorful and never cease to amuse me.

For some installs, the HT5k may give more light with its constant apperture. Its optics also offer a slightly cleaner image. Overall, however, the Lumis provides a better image.Thanks. From reports it sounds like this could be an upgrade for Art if he could get one with good convergence, as we discussed before. It sounds like the main reason for him to wait is in case he can get the same kind of on/off CR improvements in an HT5K type of model, like you said.

I don't know Art's throw ratio and where he would be the in the range for whichever lens fit, but I'll assume 1600 lumens for some math. I'll assume 1.2 gain with his 2.35:1 screen that is 14' wide and 20% ft-lamberts improvement from his anamorphic lens. That would be about 30 ft-lamberts for the brightest spot for 16:9 or 1.85:1 material and about 21 ft-lamberts for 2.35:1 material.

--Darin

Can the convergence be manipulated via software?

Yes, in 1 pixel increments, RGB, just like the C3X 1080

Yes, in 1 pixel increments, RGB, just like the C3X 1080

Does this mean that if someone recieves a misconverged Lumis, can it be perfectly converged?

It sounds like not exactly but you'd never be more than a 1/2 pixel off for 2 primaries. Correct?

Does this mean that if someone recieves a misconverged Lumis, can it be perfectly converged?

Not necessarily, because the adjustments are in full pixel increments.

Jim

It sounds like not exactly but you'd never be more than a 1/2 pixel off for 2 primaries. Correct?For the center of the screen that should be true, but it could vary more than that toward the corners. From reports so far it sounds like the units Alan and coldmachine got are very good in this way, but the one Wolfgang got was off by more than 1/2 a pixel in some parts of the image. I'm not sure if he had adjusted things.

--Darin

Come on... I'm on vacation, awaiting breakfast and looking at the beautiful Florida coastline in front of my Mac...Hot coffee and the NYTIMES (but I'm not a lberal).... Then, I get this picture of a colostomy bag and there goes my appetite!!!:D

Oh well, the coffee is still good.

Boy, is it me or is Naples the Viagra capitol of the world.. A lot of old folks!

What happened to Geratol ? As far as the 5000 having itself fitted with the Lumis magic there are rumors.

I like how you prefaced your use of the NY times.:D

Art

I'm wondering if the panel aignment is hit or miss. All I know is I've never seen anything like the panels on the 5000 I have. I watch so many old black and white films. My unit is off 1/4 to 1/6th pixel at two corners and perfect over at least 80% of the screen. Since most B&W films are 1.33:1 AR they are perfect all around.

Art

I'm wondering if the panel aignment is hit or miss. All I know is I've never seen anything like the panels on the 5000 I have. I watch so many old black and white films. My unit is off 1/4 to 1/6th pixel at two corners and perfect over at least 80% of the screen. Since most B&W films are 1.33:1 AR they are perfect all around.

Art

If the Lumis has adjustment of 1 entire pixel, and not fractions, would this indicate that anything below 1 pixel off is considered to be within spec?

Sean

...Hot coffee and the NYTIMES (but I'm not a lberal)....

LOL - That's why I read the NY Post. You never want to give the wrong impression. I'm not a liberal either, not that there's anything wrong with that. :D

This post is just to get my post count off of 666 !!!

If the Lumis has adjustment of 1 entire pixel, and not fractions, would this indicate that anything below 1 pixel off is considered to be within spec?

Sean

I'm pretty sure that would say fractions of pixel misconvergence is within spec.

Art

LOL - I'm not a liberal either, not that there's anything wrong with that. :D

What ??? Only a closet liberal would say that.Next you'll say some of my best friends are liberals.

Art

This post is just to get my post count off of 666 !!!

You gotta ways to go! :D

If the Lumis has adjustment of 1 entire pixel, and not fractions, would this indicate that anything below 1 pixel off is considered to be within spec?

Sean

This is correct, and officially Sim2's spec. They don't plan to service if within their spec. The worst it could be is the dreaded 1/2 pixel off... But as always sounds like there is some variance from center out to the edges is possible. So if you have 3/4 in edges outside and its perfect in the center it could be worse than 1/2 depending on location...

I am sure the reason for limiting panel alignment to 1 pixel increments ( which is done in software ) sub pixel might cause loss of resolution.





.

Does this mean that if someone recieves a misconverged Lumis, can it be perfectly converged?

I'd bank on the answer to that being no.

Art

I'd bank on the answer to that as no.

Art

Well, if mine is as good as the one coldmachine has then I will be plenty happy! :)

What ??? Only a closet liberal would say that.Next you'll say some of my best friends are liberals.

Art

Hey man, them's fightin' words. ;)

Well, if mine is as good as the one coldmachine has then I will be plenty happy! :)

That unit is gone now. I will bet my bottom dollar I wont see one like that again.

I just want to make it very clear regarding peoples expectations of perfect convergence.......not gonna happen. This units average wont equal the average MC error of the HT5k. The 5k has factory adjustable mounts, the Lumis uses glued DMDs.

Having said all that, I have seen amazing images from machines with substantial MC.

I tried the MC adjustment in order to see if it introduced any optical funkiness. Other than the obvious fact that I had introduced an error, the misaligned color was still very sharp. That bodes well for any adjustment that needs to be made.

I think the spec is 1 pixel. Most errors could be be mitigated if they are over 1/2 pixel. The decision will come, for example, if you are good at center and 1 pixel at edge. Do you leave it or go for a 1/2 all over. The eye should be the judge, not the numbers. I would generally favor keeping the center clean.

As Alan touched on, the sub pixel adjustment sounds great but in practice its nasty. I found the Zone based iteration to be far worse that any MC itself.

Hope this helps.

Hopefully my unit comes through with good convergence. Don't expect what the 2 demo units have for sure as those looked even better than Art's 5000 from the screenshots that went up briefly.

The question I pose is if they can produce 2 demo units with perfect convergence then why not the production units? MC is my pet peeve when it comes to projectors and the little time I spent recently with the VW60 and a while ago with CRT with spot on convergence convinced me that it is a VERY nice thing to have. :)

Hopefully my unit comes through with good convergence. Don't expect what the 2 demo units have for sure as those looked even better than Art's 5000 from the screenshots that went up briefly.

The question I pose is if they can produce 2 demo units with perfect convergence then why not the production units? MC is my pet peeve when it comes to projectors and the little time I spent recently with the VW60 and a while ago with CRT with spot on convergence convinced me that it is a VERY nice thing to have. :)

I suppose the two demo units would have been cherry picked.

I think that as coldmachine has stated, one can get a little too wrapped up about misconvergence, since perfect is not possible. I admit to being prone to getting caught up with numbers, mostly due to lack of experience with this kind of kit. For example if I knew that my Lumis was 1/2 pixel out on the sides but was more or less perfect in the middle, it would still "peeve" me! Need to work on that! :)

I agree with your stance though owl1, one would hope that the demo units would represent the norm, rather than the exception! The bar has been set high!

Sean

Misconvergence is a distracting issue,whether it be in a three chip digital or a drifting CRT. How much and where then becomes the issue. Mine isn't perfect but it is excellent. In my case black and white films (even scope) have no visible fringing nor does any scrolling text on credits etc at my close seating distance. This for me passes all needed tests. Something close to this for a Lumis would be all I'd ask but this is a lot.

Art

about convergence.

a good way to prove it is if you cant see at 1 times the screen wide in distance
with a test pattern.
if its like this its very very good.

that means the center should be almost perfect and the borders should be
between 0,5 to max.0,75 pixels out.

1 pixel is for me not ok.

as my unit have to ship back tomorror i will try to do what i hate.
some screen shots that show i hope the difference between the barco cinema unit and
the lumis and the worst seq. that show a compressions bug with db on compare to off.

Coldmachine were getting a unit as well? If so, did you post any findings and screen shots? Thanks Greg

Coldmachine were getting a unit as well? If so, did you post any findings and screen shots? Thanks Greg

Greg work your way backwards.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1106210&page=17








.

at my close seating distance

Art

Hi Art,

How close is your preferred viewing distance from your 14' wide screen?

Sean

Call me naive, but I've never quite gotten my head around the fact that you can get "some" perfectly converged units, while many/most fall short.

We need to find whoever it is on the assembly line that has the better touch/patience for alignment and make that person the ONLY one in that job position. If "Mikey" is the best they have, then let Mikey do it. :D


Jim

Hi Art,

How close is your preferred viewing distance from your 14' wide screen?

Sean

About 11 1/2 '

Art

Lumis Shootout at Mayer’s DCI-Café!

Normally I’m a student at AVS, not a poster. But Saturday evening I was able to take an unexpected chance that is not offered every day: W.Mayer was so kind to invite me to his theatre, to see a direct comparison between the new Lumis and his Barco. Of course I went there and may be the one or other impression is of interest, because this duetto infernale is quite impossible to find at the moment.

LITTLE PROLOGUE
…4 things you should know: 1) Of course there was no shootout at all. 2) My English is not perfect, sorry for mistakes. 3) I am a newbee, but equipped with a few good benchmarks. 4) I am no Sim2 fan. I always had the feel of over-sharpening effects, esp faces. I expected to see the same again.

THE MAN
…is as nice as you know him from the forum. Very kind, very friendly, very patient. He showed me all the details I should care about and a lot of 3D-stuff. Deeply impressing, it is like opening a new world. Thank you Wolfgang Mayer!

THE THEATER
…is - to use a coldmachine term - a pure revelation. Of course the director knows how to let the magic happen. The screen stage appears much bigger than on the pictures. And the best: Everything complete pitchblack, non-reflecting to the last detail, no-compromising - you see the screen and nothing else. Fortunately I had a complete medical team outside, to get fast first aid after the 7 meter shock… :)

THE PROCEDURE
After a warm up we selected special casino royal scenes and W.Mayer programmed loops. It was possible to switch the same loop at the same signal level between the units. After watching 7-10 special scenes again and again on 2 screens (5 and 3meters, 17/10ft) here are my impressions.

THE BARCO DCI
…what a picture. You miss nothing, the blacks are astonishing good.
You have to see it to believe it! Very sharp, but no digitalism, a sharp-smooth analogue look.
Fantastic colours, not too bright (I expected 35fl as unwatchable, the opposite is true).

THE LUMIS
- very difficult to compare, because not as bright as the Barco.
As a 11fl consequence, the Lumis had also to live with less intense colours on the 5m screen.
- Lumis colours: quite near to the Barco on the 3m screen.
Not there but damn close, and this with such a small unit and UHP!
- Impressing blacks: best example is the casino diner in the train, the black clothes of the lady.
They are definitely and by far looking better – deepest black with detail and a glance. Very good!
- Sharpness: In some scenes sharper then the barco (i.e. model train).
No more oversharpened faces (effect not there or heavily reduced!) and no haze (see W.Mayers reports in this thread).
- Greater contrast: again the casino train, Bonds suit.
You can not detect the details clearly on the barco. But on the Lumis AT ONCE.
- MOST important for me: the character of the picture.
I asked to see the casino crane-chase filmed from the helicopter.
There is a short scene where this is filmed from the ground up to the sky with a lot of things and red crane-metal in between, the chase running on top and the blue sky ad infinite.
Very difficult to display the colours, extreme challenge for providing depth of sharpness.
What should I say: The Lumis was (minimum) on par, if not even better.
- Now the best: W.Mayer was driving his Barco with a Gamma of 2.2 (if I remember that correct). BUT (!!!) it was an S-shaped gamma curve that could be provided for DCI units.
If you were missing Peters S-shaped high praise, here is the link:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1061272
That the Lumis was able to keep up under these conditions is (for me) a pure sensation.

:( The only thing I was missing: a motorized lens shift or even better an ILS.
:) The host. I find this extremely good. HD-SDI etc. all is there. I am sure, when you get used to it, you will never give it up. Supercool fibre-connection :)

SUMMARY
…in the end, Alan Gouger is always right: “Choose your poison”. Every pj has its own advantages. Fact is I had to throw my prejudices overboard.
Seems that: If you want the best colours, if you need tons of light, if you have the room-resources (lot others not to mention…) for units like Titan, Barco, Christie, these may be first choice.

But it also seems that if you want to come close to the best 3 DLP-Punch available, on top with ground-breaking DLP-contrast, deep blacks, low-noise cooling and easy-handling, then this unit seems to be the perfect package in a projector.
This esp for those, who want to go with an ISCO or have their pj placed on h&v axis (lens shift).

I will have to wait for my Christie HD 6K-M now, but if the M can’t keep up with this astonishing lumis performance or if it is too loud,
I will def not keep it and wait for a Sim2 with ILS (praying for a new HT5K :) ).

BTW: The Lumis was giving Wolfgang Mayer a hard time, the pre-prod-unit was (typically) always changing back to the factory storage and he had to re-program.
So his efforts to support you with his results cannot be rated high enough.
Thank you Wolfgang Mayer for this Lumission possible! Grazie di cuore!
Thanks for your attention, sorry for the long post, but to give you a credible newbee impression some detail is needed.

Norman

Thank you Norman - nice review !!

Yes thanks very much norman !

One question: On a 14 wide screen using an ISCO III which projector would you feel would provide the best overall image ?

Art

From Alan's numbers, I would expect to be able to get more than 11 Ft lamberts @ 5M (with hi lamp / closed iris). Correct?

Nice review.

Yes thanks very much norman !

One question: On a 14 wide screen using an ISCO III which projector would you feel would provide the best overall image ?

Art

Hi Art!

Depends on your preferences. Barco: colour, general impact? But I have to say, I am still mixed up, I am a fan of Peters DCI solutions, but now I am strongly convinced that an upgrade to 5-6K:1 contrast on W.Mayers barco would not change the world in a way, that you throw the lumis in a corner. Means: This little thing came surprisingly close! Plus all the advantages that are new in the DLP camp.

As far as I followed your posts (and you are coming from a CRT like W.Mayer) I would assume, that the Lumis with its new features and the (may be?) upcoming Simsolutions will provide what you are looking for: Much better contrast and blacks combined with an exceptional picture.

ISCO: Yes I feel this is an ideal ISCO counterpart. But there are better experts on this here in the 20K+.

One little add-on: I was strongly convinced that if the 6K-M does not work for me I will switch to a Christie Xenon or DCI. After this adventure I completely shot that out of my head. Because I can come very close with much less circumstances and with some advantages on top.

I hope the Christie arrives in the next 3 weeks and then I am sure we know where the journey is going to. W.Mayer will test it :)

Norman

From Alan's numbers, I would expect to be able to get more than 11 Ft lamberts @ 5M (with hi lamp / closed iris). Correct?

Nice review.

Are you going with a 5M screen Jeff ? If you havea 14' wide Studiotek you should get twice that.

Art

Are you going with a 5M screen Jeff ? If you havea 14' wide Studiotek you should get twice that.

Art

Here's my math...

16.4 (5 Meters) x 6.83 = 112 sq ft @ 2.40
14 X 6 = 84 sq ft @ 2.40

So, if Wolfgang is getting 11.0 Ft Lmbrts on the 5M screen (16.4 ft wide), then on a 14ft wide, I'd see 14.3 ft Lamberts (proportionally).

I'd want a lot more than that.... Based on Alan's numbers, I'd be much brighter.

But not sure if he was in low lamp, many hours on the bulb, etc...

If you havea 14' wide Studiotek you should get twice that.

The unit I had would yield 27fL for your screen. That assumes 14ft@1.15 gain (1.3 cloth with MicroperfX2) and a throw of 26ft. Alans would have been 29fL. Thats includes calculating for the zoom position, and the ISCOIII

That was after well over 100 lamp hrs.

But not sure if he was in low lamp, many hours on the bulb, etc...

What is your distance and screen gain, and I'll tell you the max fL for all 3 units that have been tested.

first norman

thank you very mutch for your nice words.
it was a honor to have such a nice guy in my cinema.
thanks also for your offer to see your hd6km at my cinema
when you get it:)


again i not like screen shots but i try the last hours hard to
make some good one.

more will follow soon.

here are the first 2 pictures that show man in black full frame.


first picture is the barco dp 2000 cinema dlp the secound the
lumis.


http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3791.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3793.jpg


a sequenze i use to show the worst compresion bug i have found over
the weekend with the lumis are this 2 pictures.

first one db on secound one db off.

please note that how small this area is when you compare it with the
full frame above.
its as i post already and alan also found for me a no issue at all but the over all advantage is very big.



http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3807.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3808.jpg

Thanks for the impressions Norman.

The following 2 things could definitely be related.
- Greater contrast: again the casino train, Bonds suit.
You can not detect the details clearly on the barco. But on the Lumis AT ONCE.
...
- Now the best: W.Mayer was driving his Barco with a Gamma of 2.2 (if I remember that correct). BUT (!!!) it was an S-shaped gamma curve that could be provided for DCI units.That is, the S-shaped gamma curve could be the main cause of not being able to see the detail in Bond's suit. It is unlikely that the source (if this is Blu-ray) was mastered with an S-shaped gamma curve and if that curve comes out of black slower (flatter down at the bottom), then a result is likely to be less detail in the low level shadows. An S-shaped curve likely increased the CR between 80 IRE objects and 20 IRE objects, but at the expense of lowering the CR between 100 IRE and 80 IRE, along with lowering the CR between 20 IRE and video black. The amount of change there depends on how much the curve was changed to be more like a S-shape.

--Darin

What is your distance and screen gain, and I'll tell you the max fL for all 3 units that have been tested.

Thanks!

27 ft throw (2.60) - wide open T3 lens (no zoom).

14' wide 1.3 gain Microperf Ultramatte 2.40 aspect (10.4 ft wide@ 16:9).

Yes thanks very much norman !

One question: On a 14 wide screen using an ISCO III which projector would you feel would provide the best overall image ?

Art

Hi Art, sorry, I tried to answer fast, but the reply was caught by the server "need to be checked dadadada...".

here again in short: Barco plus = colours and (?) general impact. But this small unit comes sooo close und has this new advantages. So I have the feel for those looking for greater contrast and strong improved blacks paired with an excetional picture this is the solution.

ISCO: yes, but there are better experts on this here. :)
Try to see it soon!

Norman

Thanks!

27 ft throw (2.60) - wide open T3 lens (no zoom).

14' wide 1.3 gain Microperf Ultramatte 2.40 aspect (10.4 ft wide@ 16:9).

Bear in mind that when people quote brightness they normally refer to a new lamp. These numbers are on lamps with 75hrs, 140hrs and possibly 500hrs. so they are lower that would be normally given.

Alans unit would have provided a max of 32fL and a lo lamp of 21fL. 75hrs

Mine would have been a max of 29fL and a low lamp of 21fL. 140hrs

Wolfgangs would be a max of 27fL and an estimated lo lamp of 19fL. 300-500hrs.

Bearing in mind the age of Wolfgangs it is possible his was actually the brightest. Judging by past machines, at 300hrs you are pretty constant from there on in.

Basically your screen is no problem. Production units are supposed to be a bit brighter than Wolfgangs.

here some more pictures


first is the lumis secound the barco.

please note that i overexpose purposely the 2 pictures both a bit.


http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3778.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3782.jpg




now color first the barco secound the lumis.
hard to see any difference and not only in this picture also in the
picture at my screen.

note the barco is calibrate by barco itself and the lumis is a factory d65.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3783.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3784.jpg

Thanks for the impressions Norman.

The following 2 things could definitely be related.
That is, the S-shaped gamma curve could be the main cause of not being able to see the detail in Bond's suit. It is unlikely that the source (if this is Blu-ray) was mastered with an S-shaped gamma curve and if that curve comes out of black slower (flatter down at the bottom), then a result is likely to be less detail in the low level shadows. An S-shaped curve likely increased the CR between 80 IRE objects and 20 IRE objects, but at the expense of lowering the CR between 100 IRE and 80 IRE, along with lowering the CR between 20 IRE and video black. The amount of change there depends on how much the curve was changed to be more like a S-shape.

--Darin

Thank you Darin, VERY interesting.

yes, you were skeptical in the thread exactly about this and its good to have a concrete example now, how this could turn out. When I have a unit where S-shaped gammas can be applied I will try to compare (and hope to see this effect).
Or simplier: may be W.Mayer could try by pressing a button?

Seems that this curves provocates tremendous depth and may be the lumis seems to offers a lot of that in native? But trade offs should be avoided, correct. Anyway, I will follow this with interest.

Norman

The big advantage of an S shaped gamma curve is that the large midrange can have a gamma of 3 to 3.6. This has a large effect on perceived image quality and studies have shown that the midrange is most important. It is also the way film looks and has a more natural appearance. Of course, there are negatives. The gradual roll on and roll off at the bottom and top is felt to be an advantage by some experts, but it does compress at both ends. Color is another issue. Some colors can become over saturated.

One thing to keep in mind in this comparison of projectors is that Wolgang's DP-2000 is optimized for 3D and high light output. It is not optimized for contrast.

Was the comparison for equal sized images, both 5m wide?

the big plus from the baro is that in some seq. faces looks
a bit filtered with the lumis.
there is some details missing but you cant see it in the pictures.
i guess that is some kind of noise filtering may similar to the
miranda noise reduction system.


the barco have no inside videoprozessing so it take the signal (only in p) and
display it.

at least for 1920x1080 24p every pr. should have a funktion that bypass
the videoprozessing at all.
it shoul be very simple to do it as its only a software issue.

this option is common in high end audio why not for video?


http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3759.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3761.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3786.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3790.jpg

the big plus from the baro is that in some seq. faces looks
a bit filtered with the lumis.
there is some details missing but you cant see it in the pictures.
i guess that is some kind of noise filtering may similar to the
miranda noise reduction system.

This could also be the Sharpness and Noise reduction being at the wrong setting, especially if they have been messing around in the labs.

Have a look with the Sharpness set at 10 and the Noise at 24.

My install is on 4th February and we decided to use the Radiance XD for video calibration of various sources and the host fed from the Radiance output.
Would appreciate any comments on whether we should use the Radiance or send various sources directly into Host.
Ash

My install is on 4th February and we decided to use the Radiance XD for video calibration of various sources and the host fed from the Radiance output.
Would appreciate any comments on whether we should use the Radiance or send various sources directly into Host.
Ash

Try both.

A number of us have dumped Radiances to connect direct to Sim2 PJs. The internal VP is outstanding, all custom developed in house. Its also regularly updated. The scaling flexibility and programmability stand out in particular. There can be 18 user aspect ratios per input, fully variable in both axes. all able to be named and fire a trigger if need be.

If you do this you will need to think about arrangements for any units that use HD audio codecs

There are still some advantages to an external VP.

The Radiance has some neat tricks up its sleeve, however. I'm not sure I want to give mine up..:

1. THe Radiance will soon read meta data which will allow auto-aspect detection and setting implementation on a per-aspect ratio basis. What this means for me, is when the a BD movie is put into the player, the BD menu is always 16:9 and will automatically trigger ISCO lens out of the light path and implement 16:9 settings. When a scope film is selected, the Radiance will auto detect the 2.35 aspect, push the lens in place... all without a button press.

2. A new buffering system to cut down lipsync.

3. 2 HDMI outputs

the big plus from the baro is that in some seq. faces looks
a bit filtered with the lumis.
there is some details missing but you cant see it in the pictures.
i guess that is some kind of noise filtering may similar to the
miranda noise reduction system.


the barco have no inside videoprozessing so it take the signal (only in p) and
display it.

at least for 1920x1080 24p every pr. should have a funktion that bypass
the videoprozessing at all.
it shoul be very simple to do it as its only a software issue.

this option is common in high end audio why not for video?


Thanks for the pics and impressions Wolfgang. In this last set of photos, Lumis first and Barco second I presume?

This could also be the Sharpness and Noise reduction being at the wrong setting, especially if they have been messing around in the labs.

Have a look with the Sharpness set at 10 and the Noise at 24.

it comes at factory sharpness 9 and noise 24.

i use sharpness 9 and 0 noise.

odyssey

the comparision with norman was at the big 7 screen.
we use a about 5.4 m wide screen part as the lumis cant do a bigger picture.
the pr. was set up to cinema color with a different gamma that i get from
barco when they calibrate the unit.

it was told to me that this is a s shape version and i use some
other gamma setting the pioneer bd player offer.
than i reduce there also the color saturation to minimum.

that is what norman see when he visit me yesterday.

you are right my barco is not cr. improved as i need all the light out for 3d.

now all this screen shots i post today i use d 65 with the barco and normaly
gamma and also normally output from the bd player.

i use my small 3m wide screen to do the pictures as the lumis
have only 2.5 m to do i can get over 50 ftl.
thats is good for the camera:)

the lumis i set to native color(give a more saturatet color)
and white point at d65.
that creates a xenon like color as you can see in the last pictures.

some time i have problems to find witch one is the barco and the lumis but
i can detect in the original pictures that have far better quality
by enlarge the picture and see the convergence bug the lumis have:)

again its very hard to find a difference in color by just seeing with the eye
and its mutch smaller that i expected to see.

guess you can measure with some instruments like you have some
differences but view with the eye i cant see it.

i will later may post a last comparision about it that prove it.

Thanks for the pics and impressions Wolfgang. In this last set of photos, Lumis first and Barco second I presume?

no first picture is barco first and lumis.

secound picture is lumis first barco later
(you may can see at first one at the right side some red convergence bug the lumis have)

The Radiance has some neat tricks up its sleeve, however. I'm not sure I want to give mine up..:

1. THe Radiance will soon read meta data which will allow auto-aspect detection and setting implementation on a per-aspect ratio basis. What this means for me, is when the a BD movie is put into the player, the BD menu is always 16:9 and will automatically trigger ISCO lens out of the light path and implement 16:9 settings. When a scope film is selected, the Radiance will auto detect the 2.35 aspect, push the lens in place... all without a button press.


Very cool! Is this meta-data included on BD's at this time? Wonder how this system would work with shifting AR's like The Dark Knight

Very cool! Is this meta-data included on BD's at this time? Wonder how this system would work with shifting AR's like The Dark Knight

It would adjust such.... My last conversation with Stewart also indicated that their microprocessor controlled BRIC masking control system is that is would be able to adjust masks by reading meta data as well. No time on implemenation (if they ever do it). Meta data is on all discs.

no first picture is barco first and lumis.

secound picture is lumis first barco later
(you may can see at first one at the right side some red convergence bug the lumis have)

Thanks-- now that you point it out, I can make out the red fringing on the wall and on her shoulder/seatback... That was visible on the screen and isn't an in-camera effect?

W Mayer,

Did you say the Lumis also has a manually adjustable Iris? If so what are the specifications on it?

I am guessing form the size of the images that the Lumis was putting out 46 ftlamberts if the screen gain was one. Were you looking at it in a darkened room?

so which is which?




http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3755.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3757.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3769.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3771.jpg

You really would need to see the real images. Its impossible to tell what the camera has done.

My guess is Lumis is the top image on the first pair and bottom on the second.

If Im right, I'll state my reasons.:D

Wolfgang,

according to to your words before, and if my eyes don´t lie,, the first of the pairs will be barco, the second will be the LUMIS,

I´m looking forward learning which picture is from .....

And thanks for all your test and great reviews; its really amazing, to read it

hhelmut

I think CM got it. I'm pretty sure on the 4th, based on prior screens; but less so on the first pair-- those look nearly identical.

You really would need to see the real images. Its impossible to tell what the camera has done.

My guess is Lumis is the top image on the first pair and bottom on the second.

If Im right, I'll state my reasons.:D

the camere is not in auto mode its full manual control.
and as its a canon 5d mk2 the results are reproducible and not change.
btw one of the best camera you can buy today with full format sensor.

what i like to show is how close they are not more not less.

i will may tonight or tomorror post my last images here that show
lumis and jvc at the same screen both at the same light out
(lumis get a nd 2 filter in front)
this shots will tell you how db looks against db off and how the
rs20 will look against the lumis in dark seq.

here are the last pictures i will post.

set up:

lumis to the left rs20 to the right.
to get the same lumen to the screen i put a hoya nd 2 filter in front of the
lumis and dimm the lamp to almost min.

each picture is about 120 cm wide.


here is a picture of this set up.
may you can see that the red the rs20 do is a bit more deep red like
dark red wine.
i like this.




http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3811.jpg


now here is a picture that shows the lumis with db off.


http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3820.jpg


here with db on. what a differnce:)

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3819.jpg

the next picture i did was to compare the lumis and the rs 20.


http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3826.jpg

now this last picture was a intentional overexposure to show that the
rs 20 shows more bars than the lumis.
please take note that i have measure the lumis with 18000:1 cr. on off and
the rs 20 with 26000:1 on off!!!
even with the mutch higher cr. numbers the bars are less visible
and black looks mutch better with the lumis.



http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c387/itsmeto/IMG_3830.jpg






lets see how long it will takes that we see such technology in single chip
for a nice price and how long it will takes that we see more pr. like the
lumis with more lumen bigger lenses and even more cr.

i am sure dc4 chips will be not the last steps from ti:)

last i like to thank you sim2 for the possibility to test such a top
high end pr. before it hit the market even it it was very difficult to
work with a runing enegineiring sample:):):)
it was a lot of work but i have fun with it as well.



thats it hope you enjoy the pictures and the postings.

wolfgang

Incredible stuff Wolfgang. Looks like the SIM boys hit a home run with the technology. Not only are the blacks better but the uniformity just nails it.

Thanks once more for your efforts.

Art

Wolfgang,

When you said:
"the pr. was set up to cinema color with a different gamma that i get from
barco when they calibrate the unit."

Is the DP-2000 setup Rec709 or DCI colorspace?

This must have been a lot of work and I am glad that you enjoyed it. Now can you please go and generate MTF curves for the three projectors.

Wolfgang and Nicksbass, thanks for your shots, and reports. Simply amazing documenting this, your time and effort to put in certainly is appreciated.

Seems to me like the color from Barco is simply stunning and I'm liking the previous series shots on the Barco quite a bit. Seems to be oozing MTF and the colorimetry is just stunning.

Just to be compared to the Barco for a small, quiet projector in this price class is an amazing accomplishment on the Sim2 teams' part. Wow, incredible lumens, whites and colors like Xenon bulb out of UHP and better blacks than the JVC all on a user friendly, "budget" package. Huaahh!!!

That favours the brighter projector, of course. If you project pure black, the JVC measures about 1/4 of the SIM?

Those are pretty bold definitive statements for someone who has no experience of the machine. Unsurprisingly, they are also totally wrong.

Projecting pure black, the Lumis is lower. Alan's, Wolfgang's and my own observations all concur. Wolfgang's photos also show it very clearly. You seem to have forgot, or were simply ignorant of the fact, that the bulb is also modulated. Its output will very considerably when on a pure black screen. The DB and bulb modulation are not only run in tandem, but are synchronized to work together.

The Lumis isn't simply about DB, that's not even close to the whole story. Its about a combination of integrated techniques and their attendant control. processing and synchronizing software.

In case anyone wondered, even with an RS20 set for max contrast the Lumis provided better blacks. During program material the RS20 frequently washed out, or elevated, the black bars, no such issue with the Lumis. This is with brightness normalized.

I hope it looks better for the price and with ANSI dominated material.

It certainly doesn't need ANSI dominated material to be superior. Thats been well observed and demonstrated.

The price point observation is a valid one, but the machines are aimed at a totally different customer base. The machines are in different classes for price, performance and outright image quality. I used an RS20 simply because I has access to one and its black levels. The machines simply don't warrant comparison, the performance delta is simply too big. I can provide you a list of the difference involved if you, or anyone else, wishes but it not appropriate for this thread.

Sorry, there is haze on any 18000:1 projector independent of ANSI. It just needs the
right material to see it. But most material is mixed enoug to look hazefree indeed.


Haze is absent, or at least not apparent. Mixed content is certainly not required to see this. See point 1 regarding lamp modulation.

Wow, impressive indeed. Even w/o db the Lumis looks better. To what do you attribute the extra detail apparent in her neck on the RS20 side, though? I would guess it's higher gamma coupled with over-saturation with some edge enhancement thrown in.

I can provide you a list of the difference involved if you, or anyone else, wishes.

I can also do the same for the Barco DP-1500, little brother of Wolfgangs unit, for any regulars here who may be interested.

I seem to remember hearing a lot about that machine over the last few months.

Thanks a lot Wolfgang for going through the effort of doing extensive comparisons of the Lumis with other projectors! It's brilliant stuff. These initial reports from you and fellow members seems to strongly suggest that not only is Lumis the King in its price bracket but it is perhaps the best value for money 3DLP projector out there by a wide margin when you start comparing it to far more expensive projectors. Thanks again for the detailed comparison. :) A new benchmark in 3DLP has arrived. :cool:

Those are pretty bold definitive statements for someone who has no experience of the machine. Unsurprisingly, they are totally wrong.
Projecting pure black, the Lumis is lower. Alans, Wolgangs and my own observations all concur. Wolfgangs photos show it very clearly. You seem to have forgot, or were simply ignorant of the fact, that the bulb is also modulated. Its output will drop massively when on a pure black screen. Then think about the 25k CR.

Then how do you define On-Off for the Lumis and arrive at 18000:1?? I'm sorry, but it does not add up. If the Lumis white is >= twice as bright as the RS20 white and has an On-Off of ~20000:1 (and I interpret that as it usually is defined, measure top white field and then all black field and compute the ratio) and the typical RS20 has ~30000-50000:1 we get a factor of ~>= 4 for the absolute black level, no?

The Lumis isn't simply about DB, that's not even close to the whole story. Its about a combination of integrated techniques and their attendant control. processing and synchronizing software.

Not relevant if On-Off as normally defined is 18000:1. Is it? What does it mean?
SIM claims 30000:1. What does it mean? How is it defined?

It certainly doesn't need ANSI dominated material to be superior. Thats been well observed and demonstrated.

So how does the Lumis look superior with On-Off dominated material and with a On-Off of 20000:1 compared to a RS20 with twice that? ANSI influence not relevant by definition in this case. Neither are we talking about color or MTF or convergence. How does the Lumis do it?
Listen, I'm thrilled if the Lumis blows away the RS20 and does it in time at a cheaper price than now. But the numbers need to add up. It can't do visually one thing and when you measure it another. Modulating the lamp does not change the ratio from top white to black (much). Dynamic Iris neither. If you need both, the white and the black the Lumis has an ANSI advantage compared to the RS20, but it's still limited by the native panel On-Off of 5000:1 (versus native upto 50000:1 with the RS20). This native difference does not simply disappear because you have 3-4 times as much ANSI. I'm pretty sure I can find material where the RS20 beats the Lumis clearly.

Haze is absent. Mixed content is not required to see this. See point 1 regarding lamp modulation.
Not possible. To remove haze in critical cases the black level needs to go so low that dimming the lamp down and closing the Iris makes the whites so dim that it's not usable any more. Watch "Descent" and tell me with a straight face it was haze free from start to finish in a completely light controlled room. If it were, the Lumis were the end of projector development in the contrast department and we could stop right there. Are you sure you want to claim that?

Again you try to hypothesize with no viewing experience.

I was not implying that the combination of techniques performs some sort of magic, just outlining that there is more involved here than a dynamic iris to the overall performance of the Lumis.

Wolfgang image as well as his, Alans, and my observations clearly show the Lumis to have darker blacks.

I have no wish to fully compare these units in this thread, its simply pointless

Thanks for your input, but please allow this thread to get back on topic.

here are the last pictures i will post.
...

So, Wolfgang, is the white of the Pioneer logo on black as bright with DB on and off? It looks that way on your pic. And is the black level on the RS20 with that pic higher as on the Lumis with db off, as on your pic (in addition to an ugly blue tint the Lumis does not have)?

Again you try to hypothesize with no viewing experience.
Wolgangs image as well as his, Alans and my observations clearly show the Lumis to have darker blacks.

Oh, please. Pics with cameras prove nothing at all. If you can't provide some arguments and explanations that make scientific sense I'll have to dismiss the claims in this thread as hyperbole.
And by the way, we are on topic. This thread compares the Lumis and the RS20, claims were made, and are now questioned. If people don't want to discuss their claims, why post? This is the AVS forum, not a marketing platform for brand x versus y.

Oh, please. Pics with cameras prove nothing at all. I

In general terms that may be true, but with 2 images on the same screen, with the same source, a difference in black level is easily demonstrable. Those images reflect my own viewing experience.

If you can't provide some arguments and explanations that make scientific sense I'll have to dismiss the claims in this thread as hyperbole.

The claims are not unilateral. Others concur fully. The images illustrate the point rather well.

I see no hyperbole here. Nor do I see people trying to distort comparisons by blatantly lying and fabricating preposterous test results we have seen associated with other machines in other parts of AVS.

I like the image of the woman's face as projected by the RS20. I like the color and the detail.

Why are the other images of the rs20 so uneven? The upper left half triangle of the screen is blue, the bottom right half triangle is nice and black.
This is readily apparent in the two Pioneer logo shots and the overexposed shot of the woman's face.

I do not want to question anybodys experience but as mhafner pointed out, the numbers don't add up.

If on/off is measured as the ratio of 100 IRE/0 IRE and if the 100 IRE points are equalized: How can projector with lower on/off have lower blacklevel in a 0 IRE (or close to) picture? Either it doesn't or the on/off measurements for one or both projectors are wrong or some setting is screwing up the black level of the high on/off projector.

I see no hyperbole here. Nor do I see people trying to distort comparisons by blatantly lying and fabricating preposterous test results we have seen associated with other machines.
I'm not claiming people don't see what they see. And I'm not trying to be difficult either. I'm merely asking for some additional information that allows me to make scientific sense out of it.
The general claim here seems to be that
- with pure black fields the RS20 has lower blacks (that follows directly from the definition of On-Off, top lumen and the numbers stated here). If not so an explanation is indeed in order for the numbers and the definition of On-Off.
- as soon as we leave pure black fields and enter mixed image territory (whether that be a checker board, some tiny bright stars on pitch black background or any other mixed material in the losest sense of the word, whether it traditionally would be considered ANSI or On-Off dominated) the Lumis beats the RS20 with visually blacker blacks and less haze and more depth (also when both have same top white lumen, not only when projecting next to each other at full blast). Because it has ~3-4 times more ANSI contrast and can dynamically dim the bulb and close the Iris (plus gamma manipulation to counter this action). There are no unwanted side effects from this dynamic processing, no brightness compression or any other.
- Not only that. The Lumis is the first 'haze free' projector, no matter what you throw at it.

That is the current state of the claims as I understand them. Is that correct?

So, Wolfgang, is the white of the Pioneer logo on black as bright with DB on and off? It looks that way on your pic. And is the black level on the RS20 with that pic higher as on the Lumis with db off, as on your pic (in addition to an ugly blue tint the Lumis does not have)?


i think i can read this info.

first picture db off secound db on.

this picture is not a fake!
it show clear that the lumis have even at db off the better blacks
and with db on look how bad the blacks look with the rs 20?

and yes its also strange to me how they do it when my measurment instrument tell me that the rs 20 have the better on off cr. but
may some tricks that ti sim2 did and may the mutch better ansi cr.
or whatever is responisble.

again i not care abaut how they can do such a nice picture
and black level the important issue is they did it.

but its strange like always.
you not saw this unit
you not see a set up
with 2 top pr. like the barco cinema unit and the very good rs20 together
with the lumis but you always doubt statments.

and btw as cm post """with 2 images on the same screen, with the same source, a difference in black level is easily demonstrable"""

i spend enough time to make this tread and inform others about this pr.
and most like it.

sorry but i will not do such discussion again and again with you.

I like the image of the woman's face as projected by the RS20. I like the color and the detail.

Why are the other images of the rs20 so uneven? The upper left half triangle of the screen is blue, the bottom right half triangle is nice and black.
This is readily apparent in the two Pioneer logo shots and the overexposed shot of the woman's face.

My understanding is that the smaller image of the RS20 with the face is 120 cm wide which is about 4 feet wide and therefore it retains the grip on the image while the Lumis has an ND2 filter in front of it with the lamp on min.

As the images get larger, the Lumis maintains its grip on the image because it has the chassis to sustain the size but the RS20 will eventually find it hard to power up larger screens because it is not built for them.

This doesn't take anything away from either projector. Both are marvellous machines in their own price bracket and category. They provide stiff competition to other competing PJs lower and higher than their price to a certain extent.

I like the image of the woman's face as projected by the RS20. I like the color and the detail.

Why are the other images of the rs20 so uneven? The upper left half triangle of the screen is blue, the bottom right half triangle is nice and black.
This is readily apparent in the two Pioneer logo shots and the overexposed shot of the woman's face.

TT, don't get caught up looking at small detail and making any judgment. I know thats not what Wolgang intended these photos for. Unless the images are exactly matched for brightness, on will look overexposed and loose detail. There are also possible gamma differences as well as many other things

The Rennaisance photos I posted have been complimented, but you cant believe how much detail is actually missing due to the camera. The illuminated billboard on one actually has writing on it and is partially transparent. None of that survives the camera.

and yes its also strange to me how they do it when my measurment instrument tell me that the rs 20 have the better on off cr. but may some tricks that ti sim2 did and may the mutch better ansi cr.
or whatever is responisble.

The easy way to resolve this is simply to both measure and photograph a 0 IRE screen with each projector.

If the pictures don't reflect what is measured than something is obviously askew.

I have not seen the lumis but I own an RS20 and will go on record as saying that that those pictures with the Pioneer logo do not come close to showing what I typically see in those kinds of scenes.

I was also puzzled by the Lumis and RS-20 black field with Pioneer logo comparison and I have a possible explanation. The problem with the RS-20 is that the off state seems to be very non-uniform. Wolfgang, can you confirm this?

If the off state is very non-uniform, you can't just measure the center for sequential CR. You should measure various points and get an average. Maybe the "average" sequential CR of the RS-20 is much lower when you do this.

The off state non-uniformity of LCOS projectors is caused mostly by the panels. In comparison, the off state uniformity of DLP projectors is very good, because it's almost all diffuse light from reflections. You can measure the center only and get a meaningful result.

The above is just a theory and needs to be confirmed by measurement.

hello
does the LUMIS fit the SCHNEIDER CINEDIGITAR lens ?
or vignetting ?
the C3X 1080 with ISCO II is slightly vignetting.

ps: stratospheric on off is an academic discussion imho once you're in scope config with black room. + ANSI gives so much more pop in most scenes, the 3D depth. way above CRT which never had good ANSI CR.
if one is in a non scope configuration, on off at high levels is required.

my very very humble opinion.
... and FTL rules !! how could people live with 6-8FTL on so many machines in the past and still now !

Wolfgang, thanks for your report I really appreciate. The screen shots do show a difference, and I am sure if I were there in person it would even be more profound.
I saw the Sim2 Lumis at CES 2009 and its just outstanding. Thanks Greg

I see two possible explanations for the better black levels in the Lumis vs the RS20.

1. Sim2 is conservative with their numbers, and the actual on/off is much higher, but difficult to measure in the ordinary way, due to the unique way the bulb modulates.

2. Not one of those pictures is with a completely black screen. Not only does ANSI favor a scene with even a logo showing, but the eye, and the camera respond to a brighter point within a dark field, by perceiving the surrounding black area as blacker than the projector with a not so bright logo.

I was also puzzled by the Lumis and RS-20 black field with Pioneer logo comparison and I have a possible explanation. The problem with the RS-20 is that the off state seems to be very non-uniform. Wolfgang, can you confirm this?

There is definitely unit-to-unit variation in black field uniformity but I have never even seen even an RS1 that has the amount of variation as that depicted in that photograph.

I have not seen the lumis but I own an RS20 and will go on record as saying that that those pictures with the Pioneer logo do not come close to showing what I typically see in those kinds of scenes.

Nor does the shot truly reflect the Lumis image

That isn't the point of the images at all. With 2 black images, one will always overexpose if the other is darker.

I have tried them back to back, as Wolfgang did. The difference was plain to see.

Pteitenen(sp)? noticed an non uniformity effect similar to what we see here in the rs20 pics when he posted his rs20 screenshots in the huge rs20 owner's thread.

He realized that the non-uniformity in his rs20 screenshots was due to using too much horizontal lens shift.

The non-uniformity went away when he centered the rs20 image in the screen.

I wonder if the same thing is going on here?

There is definitely unit-to-unit variation in black field uniformity but I have never even seen even an RS1 that has the amount of variation as that depicted in that photograph.

Its due to the exposure. Because the Lumis in Wolgangs image is far darker its lengthening the exposure, making the light areas on the RS20 look worse than real life.

I have seen, and posted, worse on an RS1, RS2 and the RS20 I bought.

As I said before, we have no one here lying orfabricating test results etc, like we have recently seen elsewhere.

Wolfgang's word is bankable around here. The simple photo proves his observations, and those of others, to be factual.

Time to move on guys, before this heads south.

Nor does the shot truly reflect the Lumis image

That isn't the point of the images at all. With 2 black images, one will always overexpose if the other is darker.

I have tried them back to back, as Wolfgang did. The difference was plain to see.

If, in fact, the Lumis is overexposing the RS20 because it is that much blacker, then that fact itself is pretty amazing and I may have to open my checkbook wider and sooner than I had otherwise would have liked.

Pteitenen(sp)? noticed an non uniformity effect similar to what we see here in the rs20 pics when he posted his rs20 screenshots in the huge rs20 owner's thread.

He realized that the non-uniformity in his rs20 screenshots was due to using too much horizontal lens shift.

The non-uniformity went away when he centered the rs20 image in the screen.

I wonder if the same thing is going on here?

The technology involved is inherenty poor with uniformity. Black levels in corners especially can be way higher that center. This also brings the CR into question.

I tested a unit to have 42k CR, if I tested the black level in a corner it was 4 times higher. Thats a CR of 10k. I'll post shots when I get time.

Oh, please. Pics with cameras prove nothing at all. If you can't provide some arguments and explanations that make scientific sense I'll have to dismiss the claims in this thread as hyperbole.
And by the way, we are on topic. This thread compares the Lumis and the RS20, claims were made, and are now questioned. If people don't want to discuss their claims, why post? This is the AVS forum, not a marketing platform for brand x versus y.

I think the issue is we are comparing a projector with high native on/ off (easy and simple to measure) ,poor ANSI contrast and poor uniformity to one with good native on/ off,excellent uniformity,astronomical ANSI contrast and dynamically obtained on/off. In this case a comparison using numbers is all but useless. In this instance the proof is in the pudding. Short of seeing the projectors with a wide variety a material of our own choosing ,the work Wolfgang has done here is the best comparison we might be able to get.The images with the DB engaged, the full field uniformity and black bar visibility (a good subjective measure of haze) are extremely revealing IMO.

Art

As I said before, we have no one here lying orfabricating test results etc, like we have recently seen elsewhere.

Care for a link to "elsewhere"? A PM is sufficient as this is kind of off-topic.

Thanks,
Gregor

Wolfgang has said that the camera was in manual mode, so exposure should have nothing to do with it. Even if it was in an auto mode, the Lumis image is not absolute black and the relative luminance will still hold.

This is all definitely on topic and there should be no comments like time to move on. If there is a problem with measurement vs visual there needs to be an explanation. There is no black magic with the Lumis DB. Its performance can be measured, including its limitations.

Wolfgang has said that the camera was in manual mode, so exposure should have nothing to do with it. Even if it was in an auto mode, the Lumis image is not absolute black and the relative luminance will still hold.

This is all definitely on topic and there should be no comments like time to move on. If there is a problem with measurement vs visual there needs to be an explanation. There is no black magic with the Lumis DB. Its performance can be measured, including its limitations.

Yes ,measured but then using those measurements to extrapolate to real world perfomance (using DB numbers to native) and then throwing in ANSI contrast differences of this magnitude muddies the waters unfortunately. The months long AVS contrast thread proved that and they had no where near the differences we are seeing here to deal with in that thread.

This doesn't even take into account the uniformity issues of the LCoS unit.

Art

The easy way to resolve this is simply to both measure and photograph a 0 IRE screen with each projector.

If the pictures don't reflect what is measured than something is obviously askew.

I have not seen the lumis but I own an RS20 and will go on record as saying that that those pictures with the Pioneer logo do not come close to showing what I typically see in those kinds of scenes.

as i post already its overexposed to show the differneces.

This is all definitely on topic and there should be no comments like time to move on.

The comment wasn't, and isn't aimed at people like yourself.

We have seen this develop many times, and its already happened in a Lumis thread....The same people, with a common interest, start sniffing around a ruin a thread.

Thats why certain people, who provide exceptional information, end up driven away.

Yes ,measured but then using those measurements to extrapolate to real world perfomance (using DB numbers to native) and then throwing in ANSI contrast differences of this magnitude muddies the waters unfortunately.

This is completely true.

That is why I suggested just doing the same thing with a 0 IRE pattern on both screens. There is no room for interpreting what is seen with that. The numbers should correspond witrh the pictures. If they don't something is wrong. I don't think that throwing that small Pioneer logo on the image should change much, but this approach just takes it off the table.

Yes ,measured but then using those measurements to extrapolate to real world perfomance (using DB numbers to native) and then throwing in ANSI contrast differences of this magnitude muddies the waters unfortunately. The months long AVS contrast thread proved that and they had no where near the differences we are seeing here to deal with in that thread.

This doesn't even take into account the uniformity issues of the LCoS unit.

Art

I was talking about only the black field with Pioneer logo image. That one is easy to uderstand in terms of the different measurements of contrast. The non-uniformity of the RS-20 is probably the explanation for what we are seeing.

If there is a problem with measurement vs visual there needs to be an explanation. There is no black magic with the Lumis DB. Its performance can be measured, including its limitations.

No disagreement here. No one suggested otherwise. Theres no black magic, and there certainly are issues and limitations with this machine.

All PJs are a compromise. I happen to think that, outside of some basic numbers to ensure overall fundamental suitability of a machine, its the eyes that matter.

I compared the Lumis to a number of units, from less expensive units like the RS20 ,to DCI units costing far more than the Lumis.

I trust my eyes. My findings and observations are not unique.

On a more general point...I really don't see the big issue here at all. The Lumis will get its ass handed to it soon enough anyway, as have other great PJs. Thats just how it is.

That is why I suggested just doing the same thing with a 0 IRE pattern on both screens. There is no room for interpreting what is seen with that. The numbers should correspond witrh the pictures.


I disagree with that. The pioneer logo on a black background would be very very indicative of things like planets ,space ships, stars etc which is one place we have needed work with digital projection systems. This demonstrates how the DB and high ANSI interact visually IMO.

Art

Wolfgang:

You performed a wonderfully in depth review of the Lumis, it is greatly appreciated

Lon

I disagree with that. The pioneer logo on a black background would be very very indicative of things like planets ,space ship, stars etc which one place we have needed work. This demonstrates how the DB and high ANSI interact visually IMO.

Art


the background from the pioneer logo is 0 ire :)
i did use a full frame test patern with 0 ire and the result is the same
but as you not can see anything with this picture at the left side
i think it was better to use "this picture".

i did this to prove that the lumis is on.

I disagree with that. The pioneer logo on a black background would be very very indicative of things like planets ,space ship, stars etc which one place we have needed work. This demonstrates how the DB and high ANSI interact visually IMO.

Art

This is true. People were questioning whether the pictures made sense compared with what the numbers indicated the results might be. If Wolfgang did the same thing with a 0 IRE screen we could at least rule out some other kind of factor.

Personally, I am very surprised at those pictures but if that is what is seen then that is what is seen.

the background from the pioneer logo is 0 ire :)
i did use a full frame test patern with 0 ire and the result is the same
but as you not can see anything with this picture at the left side
i think it was better to use "this picture".

i did this to prove that the lumis is on.

Wow !!:D

Art

Wolfgang:

You performed a wonderfully in depth review of the Lumis, it is greatly appreciated

Lon


thank you lon and all the others that like my work
and told me already.

i will soon see the unit you have and if i not report about it here
i pm you what i think found and measured.

i press my fingers that this unit can do black almost as good as
the lumis because i am sure that some other things the hd6km
can do better than the lumis.
i just say optic ils lens system and may also the filtered details.

oh i forgeth the light output:):):)

lets see.....

Definitely some interesting photos on the previous page, one thing that sticks most is the poor uniformity of the RS20 captured in the photos and because of this thought it may be beneficial to switch the photos around placing the RS20 on the left and the Lumis on the right. Though this new representation does not eliminate the poor uniformithy of the RS20 I think it slightly changes the perceived black level differences noted between the two projectors portrayed in the original photo.

Not doing this to stir the pot, just thought this added perspective may add additional perspective.:D

Thanks for taking the time to do these tests Wolfgang, it really is some really nice information to have.

As CM has stated ad-nauseam on/off contrast is just a single metric that by itself can't be used to determine the capabilities of a system. So many people here on AVS use on/off contrast as the "holy grail" of the advancement of projector technology, but as a metric by itself means very little.

Case in point is the RS line from JVC. Huge on/off contrast numbers but those numbers break down very quickly after getting actual images onto the screen. What we really need is a contrast graph of how the contrast changes through each APL percentage.

Somebody did a graph on an RS1 and it showed the 15,000:1 on/off was only good up to a 2% APL after that it got progressively worse than a DLP projector it was compared against. This is clearly visible in the photos from Wofgang that shows the much brighter black bars on the JVC vs the Sim2, and thus are hardly a surprise to me. The deep black floor of the RS line quickly goes away as the APL rises.

Such a contrast graph would also serve to dispel any myths of outrageous contrast claims of future LED based projectors that could turn off the LEDs on a 0 IRE image. I think contrast graphs will give people a lot better idea of what the actual contrast capabilities of a projector are rather than just a quick glimpse at certain points that manufacturers can tweak to pacify the crowds.

It does baffle me, however, how a full 0 IRE image on the Lumis can be visibly darker than that of the RS20, when the 100 IRE image has been normalized between the two, when the JVC has a 2:1 on/off contrast advantage. However, this could be explained by CM's measurements that the corners of the RS20 on a 0 IRE image are 4x the brightness of the center, which means the RS20 can vary from 40k:1 at the center to 10k:1 at the edges, while the Lumis is 18k:1 over the entire image. The overexposure on the camera would tend to exacerbate the corners and overshadow the possibly darker center.

I happen to think that, outside of some basic numbers to ensure overall fundamental suitability of a machine, its the eyes that matter.

I compared the Lumis to a number of units, from less expensive units like the RS20 ,to DCI units costing far more than the Lumis.

I trust my eyes. My findings and observations are not unique.


My thinking about this is very different. The factors that are well understood, including the significance of measurement differences to the real world, are best compared using measurement.

Color is a good example. If someone prefers saturated colors, they may pick a projector that has over-saturated primaries. That only means that it's a better projector for them. Also, we don't know what the source is supposed to look like. Even something like a stop sign is a problem. I looked up the government specifications for stop sign color and they have a very large acceptable range, going from slightly orange to deep crimson. My test would be how well a projector complies with the color requirements of the applicable standard, like Rec 709 for BD. I would still evaluate real world images, but mainly to catch problems with instruments and methods.

I am not saying that visual observation is not important. It is, but a more objective method is needed when personal preference and other confounding factors are present.

thank you lon and all the others that like my work
and told me already.

i will soon see the unit you have and if i not report about it here
i pm you what i think found and measured.

i press my fingers that this unit can do black almost as good as
the lumis because i am sure that some other things the hd6km
can do better than the lumis.
i just say optic ils lens system and may also the filtered details.

oh i forgeth the light output:):):)

lets see.....


Wolfgang:

Could you look at my post # 38, I am wondering if we are talking about the same issue, Haze vs Dithering?

Wolfgang:

My thanks too for taking the time to do the tests and then write it all up here. There are a lot of us very interested in the unit and the datapoints you provided are very helpful and welcome. To have someone of your skill and reputation compare the unit to the Barco and similar as "close" is telling indeed. Screenshots as you pointed out early just can't do justice to what's seen in person, and while fun to look at, it's your verbal descriptions that mean so much to me. Thanks again for all the work and participation here. Of course we can't have a PJ thread without a RS20 discussion. Maybe a little like asking about the best dedicated BR player and having to wade through the PS3 posts :)

Best, Scott

My thinking about this is very different. The factors that are well understood, including the significance of measurement differences to the real world, are best compared using measurement.

Color is a good example. If someone prefers saturated colors, they may pick a projector that has over-saturated primaries. That only means that it's a better projector for them. Also, we don't know what the source is supposed to look like. Even something like a stop sign is a problem. I looked up the government specifications for stop sign color and they have a very large acceptable range, going from slightly orange to deep crimson. My test would be how well a projector complies with the color requirements of the applicable standard, like Rec 709 for BD. I would still evaluate real world images, but mainly to catch problems with instruments and methods.

I am not saying that visual observation is not important. It is, but a more objective method is needed when personal preference and other confounding factors are present.

How do you compare dynamic black implemented sequential contrast to native ,mathmatically ?

Art

My thinking about this is very different. The factors that are well understood, including the significance of measurement differences to the real world, are best compared using measurement.

Color is a good example. If someone prefers saturated colors, they may pick a projector that has over-saturated primaries. That only means that it's a better projector for them. Also, we don't know what the source is supposed to look like. Even something like a stop sign is a problem. I looked up the government specifications for stop sign color and they have a very large acceptable range, going from slightly orange to deep crimson. My test would be how well a projector complies with the color requirements of the applicable standard, like Rec 709 for BD. I would still evaluate real world images, but mainly to catch problems with instruments and methods.

I am not saying that visual observation is not important. It is, but a more objective method is needed when personal preference and other confounding factors are present.

I think you may have misunderstood me, or more likely I failed to explain my point properly. My comment was in the context of the current viewing discussion , regarding black levels etc.

I not only value proper calibration, I insist on it. My whole posting history reflects this. Adherence to standards is very important to me.

Sorry if i muddied the waters unnecessarily. :o

Just wanted to add my thanks Wolfgang. As already stated by others here, your comments are highly valued and we appreciate your participation. Thank you!

Jim

How do you compare dynamic black implemented sequential contrast to native ,mathmatically ?

Art

You don't necessarily need a mathematical comparison. All you need is to be able to predict the benefit for different types of images. Overall contrast performance is where I would rely more on visual observation than with color, but the measurements are still more important simply because they are more objective. You also need more than sequential and ANSI CR measurements to evaluate contrast. MTF is arguably the most important contrast measurement. I don't know if I would go that far for a projector, but I think that it's at least equally important. Also, it's a possible explanation for the facial feature softening that Wolfgang observed.

HI Wolfgang:

Great review of the Lumis, when you mention haze I am not entirely sure I know what you mean do you have any screen shots showing Haze vs Non-Haze.

What I noticed is so much less dithering in low apl scenes with the HD6K-M, perhaps that is what you refer to as haze? I think we may be seeing the same thing. Perhaps it is my mistake and I am noticing less haze and mis-labeling as dither?

It was the first thing I noticed

lon

you get my 1111 post:)
that cost you a bootle of good red wine:)

haze i mean the light that is on the screen even at a 0 ire picture that
makes the black grey and not black.

dither is some kind of noise problem that dlp have even the 3 chip dlps.
they simply add some noise to a picture especially in lower ire numbers
like 5 /10 or 15%.
nosiy source material at this low ire number even increase this.

there is no perfect pr. out even dlp have some system bugs.
this is one of it.
this is not a issue with lcos.

did you like your pr. and when do you will get your calibration?
is it with you new christie also as it was with the lumis when you
switch the iris from adaptive to lest say man. max. close that
you can see also dark seq. gets a lot brighter?

One more comment about visual evaluation of images. Wolfgang does have a big advantage because he is comparing side by side images. This is much better than sequential images, but is rarely done. He is the only person I know who has evaluated the effect of an anamorphic lens on image quality, using side by side identical projectors.

lon

you get my 1111 post:)
that cost you a bootle of good red wine:)

haze i mean the light that is on the screen even at a 0 ire picture that
makes the black grey and not black.

dither is some kind of noise problem that dlp have even the 3 chip dlps.
they simply add some noise to a picture especially in lower ire numbers
like 5 /10 or 15%.
nosiy source material at this low ire number even increase this.

there is no perfect pr. out even dlp have some system bugs.
this is one of it.
this is not a issue with lcos.

did you like your pr. and when do you will get your calibration?
is it with you new christie also as it was with the lumis when you
switch the iris from adaptive to lest say man. max. close that
you can see also dark seq. gets a lot brighter?

Final finished install of my HD6K-M was delayed due to a death in the family, Jason will be back next Friday-Sunday to complete the install. Thereafter the unit will be fully calibrated.

There are many many many adjustments available that I do not fully understand but I am confident Ivan and Wolfgang will get a full grasp of them

I was also puzzled by the Lumis and RS-20 black field with Pioneer logo comparison and I have a possible explanation. The problem with the RS-20 is that the off state seems to be very non-uniform.I think that is one of that factors, but the color skew of the blacks is likely another. As I have mentioned briefly before, projectors can have different on/off CR for each of the 3 primaries and my experience is that red is harder to see down low than blue or green. I believe blue is only around 10% of the light power for D65, but blue is fairly easy to see in dark images in my experience. Even if a projector had infinite on/off CR for green and red with 100k:1 on/off CR total, the on/off CR for blue could be only around 10k:1 (ballpark as I'm not running the figures exactly). My impression was that my RS1 skewed toward blue for blackout images, but I didn't have a good way to measure this. With my RS20 I don't believe I see any color skew off my screen with blackouts, but if I put a white piece of paper up near the projector I can see some non-uniformity and color skew.

Wolfgang,

If you get some time and it works in your setup, could you please shoot off something like a white piece of paper or screen material very close to the projectors with video black images and take pictures. Or at least describe what you see. I wonder if the Lumis blackout skews toward red, which I believe is a way to get better looking blackouts than the on/off CR for white would imply.

--Darin

You don't necessarily need a mathematical comparison. All you need is to be able to predict the benefit for different types of images. Overall contrast performance is where I would rely more on visual observation than with color, but the measurements are still more important simply because they are more objective. You also need more than sequential and ANSI CR measurements to evaluate contrast. MTF is arguably the most important contrast measurement. I don't know if I would go that far for a projector, but I think that it's at least equally important. Also, it's a possible explanation for the facial feature softening that Wolfgang observed.

You are the one who was asking for numbers.The numbers (without a way to utilize them in a meaningful comparison) border on mental masturbation. If there had been a mathmatical way to determine some sort of equivalency then they would more important.

Id be one to argue with with MTF comment. I believe you in picture or picture areas of very high detail. This one infact is quite obvious but as you move away from the one pixel on one off size details I disagree with the MTF comment. I don't believe there is much to support your position of MTF being of equal importance in contrast in mixed material.

Art

Art,

You need to learn more about MTF and how it's used to evaluate these type of systems. The most obvious characteristic of 3 chip DLP that you like is due to MTF, mostly in the middle to high middle range. Think about it for a minute. Is it the contrast of large areas in the image that you find attractive, or the contrast of medium and finer detail.

Projecting pure black, the Lumis is lower. Alan's, Wolfgang's and my own observations all concur. Wolfgang's photos also show it very clearly. You seem to have forgot, or were simply ignorant of the fact, that the bulb is also modulated. Its output will very considerably when on a pure black screen.You guys may have covered it, but that is already taken into account in the on/off CR results and so I don't think it matters whether he realized it or not. I don't see how it is relevant.
As I said before, we have no one here lying or fabricating test results etc, like we have recently seen elsewhere.I'm assuming you are talking about what you have claimed before was lies, the specs and measurements for a SIM2 somebody claimed. I don't personally see enough evidence there to claim those were lies. Yes, the guy claimed an on/off CR spec that was wrong, but I see no reason to believe that he did it on purpose. That would be a stupid thing for somebody to lie about. And his claimed measurement was much lower than you and others have gotten, but he may have been confused about the actual unit (going along with thinking the on/off CR spec was much lower than it is) or maybe the unit he measured was setup to lower on/off CR (people do that) and he measured it as it was without changing it. I'm not saying there is zero chance those were lies, but I have my doubts.
I tested a unit to have 42k CR, if I tested the black level in a corner it was 4 times higher.That sounds like a bad unit. I'm not sure I've ever seen 4x for a corner on any LCOS, even back in the Sony Ruby days were I think this was more of an issue. My memory is that the worst corner between the 2 Ruby's I had was about 3x (although it may have been a little bit higher) and I'm pretty sure I've never seen anything that looked close to that with a JVC. My RS1 had a brighter corners problem, but my memory is that it was somewhere around 2x and didn't look as bad as the issue with the Ruby. I would have to look for old notes to see if I could find the actual values.

I tested my RS20 this morning after reading this 4x number. I had it about 20' back from a 10' wide screen and the iris closed down. With the meter close I looked for the brightest reading for near any corner and came up with 1.24 with the center at .95. So, about 1.3x. BTW: For on/off CR I got around 32k:1.

--Darin

Art,

You need to learn more about MTF and how it's used to evaluate these type of systems. The most obvious characteristic of 3 chip DLP that you like is due to MTF, mostly in the middle to high middle range. Think about it for a minute. Is it the contrast of large areas in the image that you find attractive, or the contrast of medium and finer detail.


Well that MTF paper you linked to some time back doesn't support the position that MTF is more important. I'm going to reiterate that you wanted numbers without any good way to compare dynaminc contrast to native other than visual performance. If that exists I'd like to read a link,seriously.

Art

Well that MTF paper you linked to some time back doesn't support the position that MTF is more important. I'm going to reiterate that you wanted numbers without any good way to compare dynamic contrast to native other than visual performance. If that exists I'd like to read a link,seriously.

Art

This is just not true. If you know the dynamic method, you can predict the benefit vs native contrast for different types of images from the numbers.

Regarding MTF, the paper in question did not directly deal with the importance of MTF for projectors. It did show very clearly how powerful MTF is for evaluation of image quality. I will post some reference information later that covers the importance of the midrange detail for image quality.

This is just not true. If you know the dynamic method, you can predict the benefit vs native contrast for different types of images from the numbers.

Regarding MTF, the paper in question did not directly deal with the importance of MTF for projectors. It did show very clearly how powerful MTF is for evaluation of image quality. I will post some reference information later that covers the importance of the midrange detail for image quality.

OK where is this ? I'm just asking I've not seen some that allows accurate assesment that allows comparisons of dynamic and native. The numbers posted so far ,as they compare to visual performance, don't jibe that's for sure.

As far as the MTF please I'd enjoy reading it.

Art

I'm not saying there is zero chance those were lies, but I have my doubts.

Darin, The comment wasn't made to you, and is between LG and I. There it remains.

You need not concern yourself with it. Please leave it at that, or take further discussion to PM.

Please consider the matter now closed.

Wolfgang,

If you get some time and it works in your setup, could you please shoot off something like a white piece of paper or screen material very close to the projectors with video black images and take pictures. Or at least describe what you see. I wonder if the Lumis blackout skews toward red, which I believe is a way to get better looking blackouts than the on/off CR for white would imply.

--Darin

no not possible as the unit was ship back today to sim2.

seams i will get a full production unit soon.

with that unit i will do measurments lumen and cr.
and take a small look at it.

Id be one to argue with with MTF comment. I believe you in picture or picture areas of very high detail. This one infact is quite obvious but as you move away from the one pixel on one off size details I disagree with the MTF comment. I don't believe there is much to support your position of MTF being of equal importance in contrast in mixed material.

Art[/QUOTE]

MTF is the direct measurement of contrast as a function of spatial frequency. It is a direct measurement of intrascene contrast.

Every projector manufacturer who has an optical engineer on staff and all the engineers at TI a lot of whom I went to graduate school with who developed the DLP use MTF to measure the contrast of the system they are evaluating

They calculate the geometric MTF from the chip directly
They can measure the MTF of the chip with a microdensitimeter
They can Measure the MTF if the optical system
They can measure the MTF of the electronic system
They can measure the MTF of the screen
They can measure the MTF of the Eye
They can cascade all these MTF functions to calculate the final image quality



any image mixed or unmixed can be broken down like an electronic signal into a sum of weighted sine waves (Fourier Optics) so when you measure the contrast as a function of spatial frequency, you are measuring how well that system transfers the image.

Once you have quantified the color in an imaging system the MTF will tell you which projector system will produce the better system

The above fact has been known for over 50 years , thousands of papers have been written and at least 10 books.

The above fact has been known for over 50 years , thousands of papers have been written and at least 10 books.

Its nice to acknowledge the relevance and importance of MTF which no one is doubting is it TI or the manufacture that keeps this information from being published.





.

Thanks for taking the time to do these tests Wolfgang, it really is some really nice information to have.

As CM has stated ad-nauseam on/off contrast is just a single metric that by itself can't be used to determine the capabilities of a system. So many people here on AVS use on/off contrast as the "holy grail" of the advancement of projector technology, but as a metric by itself means very little.

Case in point is the RS line from JVC. Huge on/off contrast numbers but those numbers break down very quickly after getting actual images onto the screen. What we really need is a contrast graph of how the contrast changes through each APL percentage.

Somebody did a graph on an RS1 and it showed the 15,000:1 on/off was only good up to a 2% APL after that it got progressively worse than a DLP projector it was compared against. This is clearly visible in the photos from Wofgang that shows the much brighter black bars on the JVC vs the Sim2, and thus are hardly a surprise to me. The deep black floor of the RS line quickly goes away as the APL rises.

Such a contrast graph would also serve to dispel any myths of outrageous contrast claims of future LED based projectors that could turn off the LEDs on a 0 IRE image. I think contrast graphs will give people a lot better idea of what the actual contrast capabilities of a projector are rather than just a quick glimpse at certain points that manufacturers can tweak to pacify the crowds.

It does baffle me, however, how a full 0 IRE image on the Lumis can be visibly darker than that of the RS20, when the 100 IRE image has been normalized between the two, when the JVC has a 2:1 on/off contrast advantage. However, this could be explained by CM's measurements that the corners of the RS20 on a 0 IRE image are 4x the brightness of the center, which means the RS20 can vary from 40k:1 at the center to 10k:1 at the edges, while the Lumis is 18k:1 over the entire image. The overexposure on the camera would tend to exacerbate the corners and overshadow the possibly darker center.

In a way it is the holy grail because it tells you what the ultimate dynamic range is and this effects all colors and even influences the quality of the image in high APl scenes and is considered by many professionals who design and measure displays for a living. This fact that lower black levels have such a dramatic effect on image quality is not intuitive but can be demonstrated easily If a display can not produce very low black levels it is from the very start very limited. the converse is not true

But of course it is not the whole story because interpixel crosstalk an light scattering in the optical system can compromise a display with even very low black levels.

One way to measure this is to measure the linespread function of a checkerboard pattern at different APL values. the linspread function will give you the drop in slope going from bright to dark and the steepness of that slope will tell you how sharp the images will look at different apl values.

My guess would be that initially at very high APL values you would see the DLP showing a much steeper slope than the LCOS and at some lower APl value the LCOS would have a steeper slope







of course it

MTF is the direct measurement of contrast as a function of spatial frequency. It is a direct measurement of intrascene contrast.

Every projector manufacturer who has an optical engineer on staff and all the engineers at TI a lot of whom I went to graduate school with who developed the DLP use MTF to measure the contrast of the system they are evaluating

They calculate the geometric MTF from the chip directly
They can measure the MTF of the chip with a microdensitimeter
They can Measure the MTF if the optical system
They can measure the MTF of the electronic system
They can measure the MTF of the screen
They can measure the MTF of the Eye
They can cascade all these MTF functions to calculate the final image quality



any image mixed or unmixed can be broken down like an electronic signal into a sum of weighted sine waves (Fourier Optics) so when you measure the contrast as a function of spatial frequency, you are measuring how well that system transfers the image.

Once you have quantified the color in an imaging system the MTF will tell you which projector system will produce the better system

The above fact has been known for over 50 years , thousands of papers have been written and at least 10 books.

I never said it wasn't known. What I said was the tossing out of ANSI and sequential contrast for MTF (which we have no data on any of the consumer units) results in nothing more than confusion.

Showing that it you know all the things on your list shows that you know all you need to know is great but of course that data isn't available.

. I've seen CRTs with high spacial frequecies that just look like crap yet when you put up video you just go Jesus Christ !

Those looking at the Lumis compared to the Barco DCI unit seem to be generally finding that the Lumis produces a superior image in the majority of material to the DCI units. If it were all MTF we should be done talking without a shootout. Thank goodness that isn't the case.

Odyssey and Peter are definitely of the opinion that that advantage is the one that counts.

Art

In a way it is the holy grail

No it isn't. Its only even majorly relevant if all other metrics are appropriately represented. Thats why certain very high CR machines look like total garbage compared to some machines that only have 2.5k CR

But of course it is not the whole story because interpixel crosstalk an light scattering in the optical system can compromise a display with even very low black levels.

Its absolutely not the whole story. There are a dozen other reasons an image may be compromised, such as color, ANSI, uniformity, softness etc. As I said above....Thats why certain very high CR machines look like total garbage compared with some machines that only have 2.5k CR

Darin, The comment wasn't made to you, and is between LG and I. There it remains.I don't care who you were addressing when accusing somebody publicly. If you wanted it to be a private matter you shouldn't have posted it publicly (especially to 2 different people in this thread).
You need not concern yourself with it.No personal offense meant, but I don't really care whether you think I should concern myself with something or not. If you don't want something to be fair game then don't post it publicly. Very simple.

--Darin

I don't care who you were addressing when accusing somebody publicly. If you wanted it to be a private matter you shouldn't have posted it publicly (especially to 2 different people in this thread).

--Darin

I don't remember accusing anyone. I made a general statement.

As you were told earlier, you need not concern yourself.

Please don't derail this thread any further on this matter. We dont want further intervention.

Who exactly did I accuse? I don't remember accusing anyone. I made a general statement.You have accused somebody before and here twice brought up people (or somebody) lying here. I would say that is likely a continuation of an accusation you have made in the past, even if you didn't put the person's name here.
As you were told earlier, It is no concern of yours.And as I added to my last response, I don't care whether you think it is a concern of mine or not. This is very simple. If you don't want something to be open to comment by others then don't post it publicly.

--Darin

MTF is the direct measurement of contrast as a function of spatial frequency. It is a direct measurement of intrascene contrast.

Every projector manufacturer who has an optical engineer on staff and all the engineers at TI a lot of whom I went to graduate school with who developed the DLP use MTF to measure the contrast of the system they are evaluating

They calculate the geometric MTF from the chip directly
They can measure the MTF of the chip with a microdensitimeter
They can Measure the MTF if the optical system
They can measure the MTF of the electronic system
They can measure the MTF of the screen
They can measure the MTF of the Eye
They can cascade all these MTF functions to calculate the final image quality



any image mixed or unmixed can be broken down like an electronic signal into a sum of weighted sine waves (Fourier Optics) so when you measure the contrast as a function of spatial frequency, you are measuring how well that system transfers the image.

Once you have quantified the color in an imaging system the MTF will tell you which projector system will produce the better system

The above fact has been known for over 50 years , thousands of papers have been written and at least 10 books.

I never said it wasn't known. What I said was the tossing out of ANSI and sequential contrast for MTF (which we have no data on any of the consumer units) results in nothing more than confusion.

Showing that it you know all the things on your list shows that you know all you need to know is great but of course that data isn't available.

I also already know the answer Odyssey will give. "The Barco has higher MTF than anything we are looking at thus a better picture". I've seen CRTs with high spacial frequecies that just look like crap yet when you put up video you just go Jesus Christ !

Those looking at the Lumis compared to the Barco DCI unit are generally finding that the Lumis produces a superior image in the majority of material to the DCI units. If it were all MTF we should be done talking without a shootout. Thank goodness that isn't the case.

Art[/QUOTE]

The reason the CRT looks better is because it had deeper blacks and it has a 9 inch focal plane which means its Nyquist cutoff frequency is one ninth of a DLP chip so the MTF of projection lens does not have to be that good to transfer a high contrast image to the screen but u=if you measured the MTF at the screen you would be stunned at how good it was even though the Ansi contrast sucks. We used to develop simulator systems with specially designed CRTs where the front plate had a very good anti-reflection coating and the lenses were made with very good glass. we than constructed an all black room using a special black paint designed for star tracker sunshades. that was 25 years ago and you would not believe the images that system produced. 10 million dollar forum anyone. Even so when I tested it I measured the MTF at the screens.

The designers know what the MTF of their projection systems are but their not talking and if reviewers included MTF and linespread measurements at different APL values in their reviews with all their other measurements they do you would not need to do shootouts to determine what was the best projector. You would just read the numbers. Its that good

You have accused somebody before and here twice brought up people (or somebody) lying here. I would say that is likely a continuation of an accusation you have made in the past, even if you didn't put the person's name here.

What you deem likely is of no significance here, nor are any previous issues. Neither warrant your ill informed intervention.


And as I added to my last response, I don't care whether you think it is a concern of mine or not. This is very simple. If you don't want something to be open to comment by others then don't post it publicly.

You seem unduly motivated to foster conflict over this issue. Please don't derail the thread further on this matter, a matter that simply doesn't concern you in any way, and is now closed.

As you were clearly told earlier, you need not concern yourself further with this issue

The high spacial frequency of CRTs (some of the best there are) are a murkey mess.The gausian beam spot is the culprit in most instances. Of course you are making my point. There are other PQ parameters that can and do make emormous difference in image quality of a projected image. The fact that CRTs have terrible MTF compared to a DLP and horrendous ANSI contrast they still produce stunning images.

You are also making my point regarding the MTF data being unavailable so saying that x unit is better than Y due it's superior MTF is tough to swallow. Who has the data list you gave above ?

Personally ,I believe this will also be shown to be the case with the higher MTF DCI units and the consumer units we are now seeing like the Lumis.



Art

hello
does the LUMIS fit the SCHNEIDER CINEDIGITAR lens ?
or vignetting ?
the C3X 1080 with ISCO II is slightly vignetting.

ps: stratospheric on off is an academic discussion imho once you're in scope config with black room. + ANSI gives so much more pop in most scenes, the 3D depth. way above CRT which never had good ANSI CR.
if one is in a non scope configuration, on off at high levels is required.

my very very humble opinion.
... and FTL rules !! how could people live with 6-8FTL on so many machines in the past and still now !

I own a Schneider and with some luck I'll be able to give an answer next week if I'm lucky and can get access to a Lumis.

Christy: Didn't you report that a CineDigitar worked with a C3X? I felt the CineDigitar is simply too small to use with these projectors. The prime is just too recessed and the beam size too large at the lens. It may fit but if it does, it will just barely and you may have edge effects from the borderline vingetting. Perhaps if one "stuck it in the hole", but then you would be very limited on tilt, yaw, etc. tunability. Or if you were at the long end of a T3, maybe. It would still be too close for comfort I believe.

Art,

Where did I say that you should toss sequential and ANSI CR measurements? I said that I thought that sequential, ANSI, and MTF; all three of which measure contrast, are equally important. I should correct that to sequential and MTF only, since ANSI CR performance (at least relative performance) can be derived from a square wave MTF at 2 cycles frequency.

The overall comparison of the Lumis and a 5000:1 sequential CR Barco DP-1500 is of great interest to me and I will be doing it very carefully. I purchased the Lumis, so I obviously think that it's a good design. I don't think that my conclusions will be very different from Wolgang's. It would be better if there was no difference in the sequential CR of the two Barco units, but we will deal with that somehow.

It will be tomorrow before I can post the references I mentioned.

Its nice to acknowledge the relevance and importance of MTF which no one is doubting is it TI or the manufacture that keeps this information from being published.





.

TI has published theoretical papers on contrast ratio of each pixel but has not to my knowledge measured the Mtf directly. The new chips which have 10.3 micron centers and swing +-12 degrees are limited in contrast ratio by the diffraction pattern of the individual chips, the dimple holding the hinge and the black coating on the backing plate. Edge scatter determined by scatter programs is not a problem and does not significantly degrade the pixel to pixel contrast. The best theoretical results give a pixel to pixel contrast of between 900 to 1000/1

The geometric Nyquist cutoff limit on the chip across 1980 pixels is 41 line pairs/mm. At the center of the field a good projection lens is down to 40 percent MTF and 10 percent at the edge , so its the optics not the chip that is limiting performance

Fortunately at theedge of the field your eye's acuity is down by a factor 3 so the field performance is not as critical. unfortunatley in a 3 chip reflective system misalignment will kill your MTF depending on the colors your looking at because you will see them at the center of your field. say your red is seperated from the blue by one pixel because of misconvergence. when an object is shown with the color green this means the projectors resolution is only equivalent to a 480p projector that is why a .75 pixel misconvergence is really really bad. Mis convergence is much worse than lateral color becuse it is at the center of your vision.

TI is very open about there specifcations but the projector manufacturers for the most part tell you nothing. ANSI contrast is a scatter spec and tells you very little about the performance of the projector and has very little to do with contrast at high spatial frequencies , the frequencies that determine sharpness. I would like to see MTF specifications on all projectors sold for over 10,000 dollars and I would like to see MTF curves sent out for each individual projector at 3 field points. This would give the customer a quantifiable meausure of performans which would guarentee quality. Right now when you buy a 3 chip reflective projector whether its LCOS or Dlp you are essentially rolling the dice. What is the misconvergent spec on a 3 chip Sim Lumis or a JVC RS20. Do they have one?

Wow, I don't check this forum for 3 days and next thing I know there is a 10 page thread that I need to catch up on :)

Wolfgang, many thanks for taking the time to view, measure, write up and discuss the Lumis. As was discussed in Alan's thread, mating DB with top-flight ANSI has created something we haven't seen before. I also have to agree with some of the comments that others have picked up on as far as the RS20 vs Lumis pioneer logo comparison. I think the on/off on the Lumis is higher than 20k:1, that's the only answer that really makes sense to me. It also sounds like the RS20 that you have is perhaps down on on/off as I think most people seem to be reporting measurements of over 30k:1 with the iris wide open, but it's what the RS20 does on a smaller screen with the iris aperture reduced and the contrast up around 40k:1+ that is what makes it special. Bottom line though, I think the Lumis is in another league and obviously so from a price range standpoint. With a really large screen that most people will be using who spend the money for the Lumis, the RS20 isn't even an option.

[QUOTE=Art Sonneborn;15657535]The high spacial frequency of CRTs (some of the best there are) are a murkey mess.The gausian beam spot is the culprit in most instances. Of course you are making my point. There are other PQ parameters that can and do make emormous difference in image quality of a projected image. The fact that CRTs have terrible MTF compared to a DLP and horrendous ANSI contrast they still produce stunning images.

You are also making my point regarding the MTF data being unavailable so saying that x unit is better than Y due it's superior MTF is tough to swallow. Who has the data list you gave above ?

Personally ,I believe this will also be shown to be the case with the higher MTF DCI units and the consumer units we are now seeing like the Lumis.




your missing my point . The low MTF of the CRT is offset by its large focal plain but the MTF it transmits to the screen is very High which is why it looks sharp to you because all front projectors are limited in MTF by the lens because of the high pixel count and small focal plane of digital projectors. a nine inch CRT with the same resolution as a .95 inch chip has a Nyquist cut off frequency of only 8 lp/mm vs 41line pairs/mm of a DLP

A projector with a Low MTF measured at the screen will always produce a poor image always

You want to understand how MTF is used in projector design read pages 314-323 Projection displays by Brenholtz and Stupp second edition and you will understand where the list came from.

who has the data list the projector manufacturers of course.

Somebody did a graph on an RS1 and it showed the 15,000:1 on/off was only good up to a 2% APL after that it got progressively worse than a DLP projector it was compared against. This is clearly visible in the photos from Wofgang that shows the much brighter black bars on the JVC vs the Sim2, and thus are hardly a surprise to me. The deep black floor of the RS line quickly goes away as the APL rises.


Yes that was the graph that William Phelps and I did comparing full white intra-image contrast using an arbitrary test pattern that varies by APL. When I get some free time I plan on measuring the RS20 to see what it does and it would be interesting to see what the Lumis does as well and where (and if) there is a crossover.

Incidentally, there is also a companion graph that measures intra-image contrast using a fixed, low APL pattern where white is varied from 0-100IRE which is very useful in seeing what happens with dynamic technologies like dynamic gamma and dynamic lamps. The results can be directly compared with a native (non-dynamic) projector. It would be really interesting to see what the Lumis with DB does on this sort of a test pattern suite.


Such a contrast graph would also serve to dispel any myths of outrageous contrast claims of future LED based projectors that could turn off the LEDs on a 0 IRE image. I think contrast graphs will give people a lot better idea of what the actual contrast capabilities of a projector are rather than just a quick glimpse at certain points that manufacturers can tweak to pacify the crowds.


Yes exactly! on/off contrast and intra-image contrast at low APL's are not the same.

Yes that was the graph that William Phelps and I did comparing full white intra-image contrast using an arbitrary test pattern that varies by APL. When I get some free time I plan on measuring the RS20 to see what it does and it would be interesting to see what the Lumis does as well and where (and if) there is a crossover.

Incidentally, there is also a companion graph that measures intra-image contrast using a fixed, low APL pattern where white is varied from 0-100IRE which is very useful in seeing what happens with dynamic technologies like dynamic gamma and dynamic lamps. The results can be directly compared with a native (non-dynamic) projector. It would be really interesting to see what the Lumis with DB does on this sort of a test pattern suite.



Yes exactly! on/off contrast and intra-image contrast at low APL's are not the same.

MLang seems to be stuck on the idea that the black floor of a projector is the end all be all to determine how great an image can look. But, this metric by itself really means very little. Take LED DLP where theoretically the LEDs can be turned off on a 0 IRE image, the black floor is true black in this case, but when an actual image is displayed the black floor will be quite different.

It is easy for manufacturers to doctor up numbers for 0 IRE and 100 IRE images where the specs they state mean absolutely nothing. Take the new LG plasma with 1 billion:1 contrast ratio, is one to assume from MLang's comments that this LG plasma beats out everything on earth to date?

I think if the black floor at 0 IRE can be maintained throughout the APL ranges than what MLang is stating could be closer to the truth, but this is never the case and often quite far from the case. What is relevant is how the black floor is handled throughout the APL range, and I think this is why DCI projectors with measly 2,500:1 contrast rations are able to look so good compared to machines with 40,000:1 contrast ratios. Because, through most of the APL range the DCI projector actually has a better contrast ratio, and therefore better black floor in each particular scene, than the 40,000:1 projector.

Overall I think on/off contrast ratio is a metric that really tells very little of the story. After all, who watches a 0 IRE screen?!? What we should have is a simultaneous contrast ratio measurement graph with a test pattern that can approximate different APL scenes, i.e white box in center with black in the rest of the image. A 1% APL pattern should get pretty close to a native on/off contrast ratio measurement. The graph will show how much fluff that on/off ratio is, i.e. how quickly does that contrast ratio break down. Would you rather have 40,000:1 on 1%-2% APL scenes and 500:1 on 3%+ scenes, or 9,000:1 on 1% - 20% scenes, etc... (Not saying this is what it is, just an example to make a point.)

Yes I agree that on/off has little meaning with dynamic technologies and this is something that I've been preaching for quite awhile. As an example, someone could easily build a projector with 1000:1 native on/off and use an iris to fully close the light path and achieve infinite on/off. But no real image improvement is obtained other than full black outs. Seeing what happens from low APL through ANSI is very useful in my opinion as is seeing what happens at lower IRE's when dynamic technologies are employed.

Yes I agree that on/off has little meaning with dynamic technologies and this is something that I've been preaching for quite awhile. As an example, someone could easily build a projector with 1000:1 native on/off and use an iris to fully close the light path and achieve infinite on/off. But no real image improvement is obtained other than full black outs. Seeing what happens from low APL through ANSI is very useful in my opinion as is seeing what happens at lower IRE's when dynamic technologies are employed.

I think it is useful even without dynamic technologies. The RS1 doesn't use dynamic technologies but the contrast ratio takes a nose dive above 2% APL scenes. I think the graph of contrast ratios from low APL through ANSI is useful for every projector and display technology made as it gives you an overall picture of what the display is capable of.

Take the lumis with DB turned off, it starts at an on/off of 5K:1 and ends up at 1k:1 at ANSI. Take the RS20, it starts with an on/off up to 42k:1 and ends up at 250:1 at ANSI. What the graph will tell us is where the crossover point is. I suspect on DCI machines the crossover from 2,500:1 to its ANSI is very low in the APL range compared to the RS20, and that is why the DCI machines can hold their own (contrast-wise) even with such a low on/off contrast ratio compared to the RS20.

It would be a worthwhile exercise to take an RS20, Lumis, and DCI machine and do such a graph (Lumis DB on and off) and see what it looks like. I think it would be very enlightening and could explain a lot of what we are seeing in the visual results.

Of course there is far more to a projector than just contrast, but this would at least provide some insight to those that preach on/off contrast as being the end all of display technology.

sorry but i will not do such discussion again and again with you.
You hit the nail on the head Wolfgang. You tried to convince me years ago that projectors with 2000:1 or 3000:1 On-Off and no dynamic iris or dynamic black had no (obvious) haze problems, were good enough etc.. When I knew it was simply not true, based on watching such projectors in my room. Now we have just another round of tech improvements and the claims are the same as ever. Deja vu all over.

The specific Lumis had either a higher On-Off than the specific RS20 in that room or pure black is brighter on the Lumis. That assumes the room is not playing tricks on these black fields with relevant illumination contributions from ambient light and reflections caused by the two projectors on each others projections. If the room plays tricks the comparison is invalid by definition. If the actual On-Off on the Lumis is higher it contradicts Wolfgang's own measurements but not SIM's 30000:1 which can be higher than the RS20 depending on how it's set up and calibrated.
If the native contrast of 5000:1 is correct the max factor used by the Lumis with dimming and iris is 4-6. That assumes for black fields the maximal factor is used, which makes sense. With the maximal factor the Lumis has darker whites than the RS20. For actual intra image contrast with all kinds of material the contrast results depend largely on how badly the RS20 pollutes his blacks as soon as any > 0 IRE content enters the picture. ANSI contrast gives an indication for a special tough case. A case not representative of say, 0 IRE black space plus a couple of dozen 100 IRE stars. If the Lumis beats a good RS20 in that case too, CONGRATULATIONS! I'M IMPRESSED!
With top whites equalised, to get the black level down to RS20 levels requires a factor of 6-10 for lamp dimming, iris closing or a combination thereof. Unless you claim some stars suddenly double or triple the black level of the RS20. Then a factor of 2-3 would be enough. It still makes the whites darker on the Lumis than on the RS20. And it introduces white crush. With the same black level now the RS20 will win. It has brighter stars. No white crush. Despite a supposedly very unstable black level.
So how does the Lumis beat the RS20 in this case???
Anyway, if the Lumis comes close it's good news. The JVC can add lamp dimming and dynamic irises as well. And improve ANSI with better optics. What the SIM can do the JVC can do too in a future model. Starting with a panel that has 6-10 times more native On-Off contrast. Cool, no? :)

i think if its possible(shift range from the barco) to
do one more screen shot.

barco cinema pr. with 2400:1 on off and arround 800:1 ansi cr. dim down to
the same light out the rs20 have by a nd8 filter side by side
with the rs20 and this black picture the pioneer offers at pause.
the same picture i had post withe the lumis and the rs20.

lets see if the shift is as big that i need from the barco cinema unit.
the pr itself shoud be not a problem but the opening arround the
lens will be the bottleneck.

And improve ANSI with better optics.

The low ANSI wont be cured with better optics.

The JVC 4k units and the Meridian 810 have vastly superior optics but still only manage the same 250 ANSI. Its an inherent limitation of the technology, as is the soft image.

Meridian tried, unsuccessfully, to improve both. They were successful in improving the JVC noise exacerbation issue but that has come at a huge price, as anyone who has properly viewed this unit with anything other than the specially selected demo material, will tell you. The damage to the image is considerable and the 810 is way behind the best 3 DLP units.

Christy: Didn't you report that a CineDigitar worked with a C3X? I felt the CineDigitar is simply too small to use with these projectors. The prime is just too recessed and the beam size too large at the lens. It may fit but if it does, it will just barely and you may have edge effects from the borderline vingetting. Perhaps if one "stuck it in the hole", but then you would be very limited on tilt, yaw, etc. tunability. Or if you were at the long end of a T3, maybe. It would still be too close for comfort I believe.

that's my fear too
i have an ISCO II here with a C3X 1080 for test and it vignets slightly (but it's place at short throw, 5.6meters from a 4meter screen scope.
is the schneider like the ISCOII or even smaller "eye" ?

Wow, I don't check this forum for 3 days and next thing I know there is a 10 page thread that I need to catch up on :)

Wolfgang, many thanks for taking the time to view, measure, write up and discuss the Lumis. As was discussed in Alan's thread, mating DB with top-flight ANSI has created something we haven't seen before. I also have to agree with some of the comments that others have picked up on as far as the RS20 vs Lumis pioneer logo comparison. I think the on/off on the Lumis is higher than 20k:1, that's the only answer that really makes sense to me. It also sounds like the RS20 that you have is perhaps down on on/off as I think most people seem to be reporting measurements of over 30k:1 with the iris wide open, but it's what the RS20 does on a smaller screen with the iris aperture reduced and the contrast up around 40k:1+ that is what makes it special. Bottom line though, I think the Lumis is in another league and obviously so from a price range standpoint. With a really large screen that most people will be using who spend the money for the Lumis, the RS20 isn't even an option.

exactly
different machines different use different "clients" different home theaters:
big giant screens with punchy images imply tons of brigthness. the domain of the LUMIS or much more expensive machines.
see attached file.
recent lcd barely bright enough for a 200-220cm screen

The specific Lumis had either a higher On-Off than the specific RS20 in that room or pure black is brighter on the Lumis. That assumes the room is not playing tricks on these black fields with relevant illumination contributions from ambient light and reflections caused by the two projectors on each others projections. If the room plays tricks the comparison is invalid by definition. If the actual On-Off on the Lumis is higher it contradicts Wolfgang's own measurements but not SIM's 30000:1 which can be higher than the RS20 depending on how it's set up and calibrated.
If the native contrast of 5000:1 is correct the max factor used by the Lumis with dimming and iris is 4-6. That assumes for black fields the maximal factor is used, which makes sense. With the maximal factor the Lumis has darker whites than the RS20. For actual intra image contrast with all kinds of material the contrast results depend largely on how badly the RS20 pollutes his blacks as soon as any > 0 IRE content enters the picture. ANSI contrast gives an indication for a special tough case. A case not representative of say, 0 IRE black space plus a couple of dozen 100 IRE stars. If the Lumis beats a good RS20 in that case too, CONGRATULATIONS! I'M IMPRESSED!
With top whites equalised, to get the black level down to RS20 levels requires a factor of 6-10 for lamp dimming, iris closing or a combination thereof. Unless you claim some stars suddenly double or triple the black level of the RS20. Then a factor of 2-3 would be enough. It still makes the whites darker on the Lumis than on the RS20. And it introduces white crush. With the same black level now the RS20 will win. It has brighter stars. No white crush. Despite a supposedly very unstable black level.
So how does the Lumis beat the RS20 in this case???
Anyway, if the Lumis comes close it's good news. The JVC can add lamp dimming and dynamic irises as well. And improve ANSI with better optics. What the SIM can do the JVC can do too in a future model. Starting with a panel that has 6-10 times more native On-Off contrast. Cool, no? :)

why didnt JVC manage to improve ansi contrast ? lcd and even the sony HW10 did.
"panel 6-10times more on off" is "info" ? :)
i remember when i tested my SIM2 D80E or even a BENQ W5000 with blu ray of GHOST RIDER.
previously i had an HD1 for 6months.
the DLP made the images so deeper, 3D ! with only 3000-5000:1 on off
so more realistic. ( remark: in a scope format so no black bars). So again
it has a lot to do with the presence of black bars or not (scope screen/LENS)

I wish that we could start a seperate thread discussing these MTF/ANSI/on-off issues because we are getting far off topic.

EDIT: I started an MTF thread HERE (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15662383#post15662383), so perhaps we should move the discussion there to avoid getting this thread further off topic.

I will try to summarize this MTF discussion in simple English that I can understand.

If I understand Mlang correctly, MTF is the true metric by which a projector's performance should be judged. This is so because the MTF measurement tells us the level of accuracy by which a source can be transmitted to the screen.

MTF can vary by APL level. Thus, to fully describe a projector's performance, we need to measure its MTF at different APL levels. If we were to measure a projector's MTF at the screen at different APL levels, we would have a precise metric of how a particular projector performs, with bright material, dark material and everything in between. If these measurements were taken, we could empirically compare the accuracy of two different projectors in transferring a source to the screen. A particular projector might have astronomical MTF with bright material but average or bad MTF with darker material or vice versa.

Furthermore, if I understand Mlang, existing CR measurements really only accidentally describe aspects of a projector's performance. When we say that a projector has high ansi or great on/off we are really describing their MTF at different APL levels.

While this makes perfect sense to me, because these measurements really only give us very limited information, it appears to have the effect of rendering the language we currently use to describe a particular projector's performance kind of obsolete and inaccurate. To make matters worse, we don't really have any viable way of measuring MTF (at least that I know of). So, we are kind of back to where we started.

One other thing that I did not appreciate (and would really like tested in some way because it seems extrememe) is the extreme importance of good convergence in a 3 chip device. Misconvergence of .75 of a pixel in the center of a screen has the effect of turning a 1080p projector into a 480p projector.

Yes I agree that on/off has little meaning with dynamic technologies and this is something that I've been preaching for quite awhile. As an example, someone could easily build a projector with 1000:1 native on/off and use an iris to fully close the light path and achieve infinite on/off. But no real image improvement is obtained other than full black outs. Seeing what happens from low APL through ANSI is very useful in my opinion as is seeing what happens at lower IRE's when dynamic technologies are employed.

I know in your contrast thread it appeared that there was an issue comparing dynamic contrast with native that translated well into on screen performance ?

Art

Furthermore, if I understand Mlang, existing CR measurements really only accidentally describe aspects of a projector's performance. When we say that a projector has high ansi or great on/off we are really describing their MTF at different APL levels.

While this makes perfect sense to me, because these measurements really only give us very limited information, it appears to have the effect of rendering the language we currently use to describe a particular projector's performance kind of obsolete and inaccurate. To make matters worse, we don't really have any viable way of measuring MTF (at least that I know of). So, we are kind of back to where we started.



Yes, and therefore having no MTF data makes it all but usless in projection discussions here.

I can tell you that the MTF of the DCI units will be touted to be higher than the consumer units but ,as I said previously ,I bet head to head when we are looking at nearly double the ANSI contrast and nearly an order of magnitude increase in sequential contrast that most will find devices like the Lumis to produce a better image.

Art

I can tell you that the MTF of the DCI units will be touted to be higher . . .


But DCI units will have lower MTF at lower APLs. This just seems to make sense, doesn't it?

As far as not having any way to measure MTF, Mlang referred to some $800 device in another thread.

MTF has nothing to do with APL and sequential CR is still needed and is important. MTF has to do with spatial frequency, which is nothing more than detail, starting with the coarsest and going to the finest. It shows the quality of the resolution at all levels of detail by showing the contrast of that detail.

Again, there is no unexplained mystery about the seeming discrepancy of the Pioneer logo images and the sequential CR measurements of the Lumis and the RS-20. It's obvious that you can't use just the center measurement for the RS-20, because it's not representative of the image. If you changed the measurement method for both projectors and measured the entire image, the resulting contrast ratios would correlate well with the visual images.

You hit the nail on the head Wolfgang. You tried to convince me years ago that projectors with 2000:1 or 3000:1 On-Off and no dynamic iris or dynamic black had no (obvious) haze problems, were good enough etc.. When I knew it was simply not true, based on watching such projectors in my room. Now we have just another round of tech improvements and the claims are the same as ever. Deja vu all over.

i long long time ago give up to convince you as i guess no one can do it.
so the opposite is true.

you are not open for news that for some reason you not like or not understand or not belief or whatever.


you are keeping a crt pr. longer than anybody else and till you got your
jvc you always sad the all digital pr. are not good at all.

now as you have a jvc lcos you reaktion is now that you are against
all dlp pr.or at least to this new lumis 3chip dlp.

but at least with one i can agree with you
"""deja vu all over""".

Yes, and therefore having no MTF data makes it all but usless in projection discussions here.

I can tell you that the MTF of the DCI units will be touted to be higher than the consumer units but ,as I said previously ,I bet head to head when we are looking at nearly double the ANSI contrast and nearly an order of magnitude increase in sequential contrast that most will find devices like the Lumis to produce a better image.

Art

You seem to have a continuing problem with simple math. Going from 5000:1 to 18,000:1 is nearly an order of magnitude? Going from about 850:1 to 1000:1 is nearly double? You also seem to have already decided on the outcome that best suits your needs.

If I understand Mlang correctly, MTF is the true metric by which a projector's performance should be judged.

You seem to be putting a lot of faith in a source that I feel, based on past performance, doesn't warrant it.

One other thing that I did not appreciate (and would really like tested in some way because it seems extrememe) is the extreme importance of good convergence in a 3 chip device. Misconvergence of .75 of a pixel in the center of a screen has the effect of turning a 1080p projector into a 480p projector.

could you provide a reference for that, or a source.

I simply cant accept that, especially after testing the MC adjustment on the RS20 and the Lumis to induce errors, and looking at the results. Neither unit suffered that sort of catastrophic performance reduction.

You seem to have a continuing problem with simple math. Going from 5000:1 to 18,000:1 is nearly an order of magnitude? Going from about 850:1 to 1000:1 is nearly double? You also seem to have already decided on the outcome that best suits your needs.


No, I don't,you continue to have a problem saying a regular Barco has 5000:1 which it does not. Of course Peters modded Barco has something around that the last I heard (or was it 3000:1?) but his Barco is sacrificing ANSI to get that the Lumis does not.

I'm looking at this thread at it's getting repeated that the Lumis likely has higher than 20,000:1 .

What is the sequential contrast of your DCI unit ?

Art

I'm looking at this thread at it's getting repeated that the Lumis likely has higher than 20,000:1 .

It does indeed. There are 2 units measured at 25k and 27k.

Wolfgangas iris is inoperative, and its designed to fail open, so the 18k would likely be 20k. His unit, as explained by the engineer, is 25% lower on CR as its not been optimized like the serial units. That would take him to 25k too.


As an aside, I directly compared the Lumis to a Barco DP-1500. The same one Ive quoted here a number of times. The Lumis is simply superior in term of overall PQ. The Barco is brighter and has better optics, but that's it. Translated to real world viewing, the difference is very obvious.

I have found DCI units, other than huge light, have now fallen behind the very best domestic units. They are still clearly superior to budget units, but that will change too as the cheaper DLPs improve.

could you provide a reference for that, or a source.

I simply cant accept that, especially after testing the MC adjustment on the RS20 and the Lumis to induce errors. and looking at the results.

Here. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15659687#post15659687)

I also find this kind of hard to believe.

Here. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15659687#post15659687)

I also find this kind of hard to believe.

Ah. I doesn't actually say it will be a 480 machine. Hes saying in an area where the diverged colors would be needed to combine, there will be a reduction. Thats a different thing. Thats already well understood.

This is the very reason the PJ manufacturers attempt align for max performance at screen center. At fairly close viewing distances a good bit of MC is undetectable yet single pixel lines are still resolved.

Try it on your RS20. You'll find it doesn't have as dramatic effect as you would think. It certainly didn't on the RS20 i tried.

Obviously any MC is detrimental, but it does get overplayed sometimes. No different to focusing on any single performance parameter as being of disproportionate importance, like the current BS we see regarding CR. Fortunately real world viewing proves much of these hypotheses to be bogus.

Ah. I doesn't actually say it will be a 480 machine. Hes saying in an area where the diverged colors would be needed to combine, there will be a reduction. Thats a very different thing. Thats already well understood.

This is the very reason the PJ manufacturers attempt align for max performance at screen center. At fairly close viewing distances a good bit of MC is undetectable yet single pixel lines are still resolved.

Try it on your RS20. You'll find it doesn't have as dramatic effect as you would think. It certainly didn't on the RS20 i tried.

Obviously any MC is detrimental, but it does get overplayed sometimes. No different to focusing on any single performance parameter as being of disproportionate importance, like the current BS we see regarding CR. Fortunately real world viewing proves much of these hypotheses to be bogus.

Ah. I see. That makes more sense.

No, I don't,you continue to have a problem saying a regular Barco has 5000:1 which it does not. Of course Peters modded Barco has something around that the last I heard (or was it 3000:1?) but his Barco is sacrificing ANSI to get that the Lumis does not.

I'm looking at this thread at it's getting repeated that the Lumis likely has higher than 20,000:1 .

Art

art

my barco cinema unit dp 2000 have nativ arround 2450:1 cr. at cinema color and arround 2250:1 cr. at d 65.

the cr. improved version can hit 5000:1 or a bit more at d 65
and ansi cr. will be not decrease it will be still in the 850:1 range.

i guess that this (from a unmodded barco at 2250:1 to over 5000:1
both a d65) is more visibel than a step up from 5000 to 10000:1.

No, I don't,you continue to have a problem saying a regular Barco has 5000:1 which it does not. Of course Peters modded Barco has something around that the last I heard (or was it 3000:1?) but his Barco is sacrificing ANSI to get that the Lumis does not.

I'm looking at this thread at it's getting repeated that the Lumis likely has higher than 20,000:1 .

Art

Why are you using a "regular" Barco as the reference. It has been explained several times that Wolgang's unit is not optimized for sequential CR because he needs a very high light output for 3D. The Barco units used for residential HT are optimized for CR and they do provide 5000:1. I have just posted in this tread that the unit I will use for comparison is 5000:1. I will have this unit late this week, but the 5000:1 measurement, at D65, was done by someone who was in charge of engineering and manufacturing at Christie using a Photo Research PR-704. He also measured ANSI CR at about 850:1 and it has nothing to do with the sequential CR mod.

I will be measuring the ANSI CR of the three projectors, also using a PR-704, using exactly the same method so that they will be directly comparable, something we don't have now. Also, since I have a very small 1/4 degree aperture available for the PR-704, I should be able to measure small areas on the screen accurately. By using medium and higher frequency square on/off patterns, I should be able to get relative MTF numbers at the more important spatial frequencies.

Wolfgang measured the Lumis at 18,000:1. I don't think that there is anything wrong with his measurements or observations. The explanation for the Pioneer image logo image discrepancy is not because his measurements, either of the Lumis or the RS-20, are wrong. It's because measurement of the center only does not adequately describe the RS-20 performance.

last night we watched STREET KINGS and DEATH PROOF (last chapter from the liquor store to the amazing car chase with Zoe Bell).
a window !
sce: PS3 US + RCable HDMI 4-2 switcher/splitter
pj: SIM2 C3X 1080 for demo
screen: PVC MPerforated oblique holes alignement (no moiré whatsoever) scope 400x171cm (woven screens kill ansi cr and FTL!)
lens: ISCOO II

black room
a window i say, so cinematic. so 3D.
CRT never did that:first screen is way too big second their ANSI cr was atrocious (70-100:1), making daylight scenes especially, far less 3D than DLP with their 500-1000:1 ansi CR.

here

The Mk II mod uses two aperture plates and yields at d65 4,973-1 say 5k, the ansi was 825. The first gen single plate mod had 4,265-1 on off and did measure 860. I believe the difference in ansi from the Mk I AND Mk II are just production differences and not the result of the added aperture plate.

Depending on the native white of the lamp there is a third mod, this has not been tested but theoretically it can buy you 12% increase over the 5k. I have this in house to implement next week.

I do not have experienced haze on content except preshow black, or if the transfer is out of whack like I am legend or like the soft filtered Indiana Jones which is filmed like that for effect.

I look forward to Odyssey's subjective MTF and PQ comparisons between the three platforms. Wolfgang already mentioned that the Lumis does show a "filtered presentation" in comparison with the Barco, I don't think this is filtering per se as much as the limitation of 3dlp consumer technology(lens,prism and electronic throughput). I have been discussing this difference in the purity of the presentation between the Barco and the other 1920 x 1080 3 dlps and it is not subtle. To this date (not counting the lumis or the christie hd_k-M platforms which IHNS), the Titan Reference has shown the "less filtered" presentation for it's class to my eyes at the expense of some sharpness noise.

Why are you using a "regular" Barco as the reference. It has been explained several times that Wolgang's unit is not optimized for sequential CR because he needs a very high light output for 3D. The Barco units used for residential HT are optimized for CR and they do provide 5000:1. I have just posted in this tread that the unit I will use for comparison is 5000:1. I will have this unit late this week, but the 5000:1 measurement, at D65, was done by someone who was in charge of engineering and manufacturing at Christie using a Photo Research PR-704. He also measured ANSI CR at about 850:1 and it has nothing to do with the sequential CR mod.

I will be measuring the ANSI CR of the three projectors, also using a PR-704, using exactly the same method so that they will be directly comparable, something we don't have now. Also, since I have a very small 1/4 degree aperture available for the PR-704, I should be able to measure small areas on the screen accurately. By using medium and higher frequency square on/off patterns, I should be able to get relative MTF numbers at the more important spatial frequencies.

Wolfgang measured the Lumis at 18,000:1. I don't think that there is anything wrong with his measurements or observations. The explanation for the Pioneer image logo image discrepancy is not because his measurements, either of the Lumis or the RS-20, are wrong. It's because measurement of the center only does not adequately describe the RS-20 performance.

Why won't you tell me what your DCI unit measures ?

Art

The Mk II mod uses two aperture plates and yields at d65 4,973-1 say 5k, the ansi was 825. The first gen single plate mod had 4,265-1 on off and did measure 860. I believe the difference in ansi from the Mk I AND Mk II are just production differences and not the result of the added aperture plate.

Depending on the native white of the lamp there is a third mod, this has not been tested but theoretically it can buy you 12% increase over the 5k. I have this in house to implement next week.

I do not have experienced haze on content except preshow black, or if the transfer is out of whack like I am legend or like the soft filtered Indian Jones which is filmed like that for effect.

I look forward to Odyssey's subjective MTF and PQ comparisons between the three platforms. Wolfgang already mentioned that the Lumis does show a "filtered presentation" in comparison with the Barco, I don't think this is filtering per se as much as the limitation of 3dlp consumer technology(lens,prism and electronic throughput). I have been discussing this difference in the purity of the presentation between the Barco and the other 1920 x 1080 3 dlps and it is not subtle. To this date (not counting the lumis or the christie hd_k-M platforms which IHNS), the Titan Reference has shown the "less filtered" presentation for it's class to my eyes at the expense of some sharpness noise.

You may well be correct I can't speak to any of this due to what units I've seen.

Art

Wolfgang already mentioned that the Lumis does show a "filtered presentation" in comparison with the Barco, I don't think this is filtering per se as much as the limitation of 3dlp consumer technology(lens,prism and electronic throughput). I have been discussing this difference in the purity of the presentation between the Barco and the other 1920 x 1080 3 dlps and it is not subtle. To this date (not counting the lumis or the christie hd_k-M platforms which IHNS), the Titan Reference has shown the "less filtered" presentation for it's class to my eyes at the expense of some sharpness noise.

There is no doubt that the Barco units, and their like, offer certain advantages over units like the Lumis and other domestic 3 chip DLPs.

The simple fact remains that, on the basis of overall PQ, the Lumis provides a superior image. Having seen both together, the difference isn't hard to see at all. Also remember these Lumis units are basically operating OOTB, so further improvements will be yielded. I think DCI units have their place, but they no longer deliver the best image available.

This situation will only get worse for DCI units as they are simply stagnant. No major leaps are being made, nor are they expected.

Regarding ANSI, the Lumis that was tested for me yielded 1040. The Barco unit tested at 720.

There is no doubt that the Barco units, and their like, offer certain advantages over units like the Lumis and other domestic 3 chip DLPs.

The simple fact remains that, on the basis of overall PQ, the Lumis provides a superior image. Having seen both together, the difference isn't hard to see at all. Also remember these Lumis units are basically operating OOTB, so further improvements will be yielded. I think DCI units have their place, but they no longer deliver the best image available.

This situation will only get worse for DCI units as they are simply stagnant. No major leaps are being made.

Regarding ANSI, the Lumis i had tested yielded 1040. The Barco unit tested at 720.

CM Pardon me if I take any of your SIM2 putative proclamations with a grain of salt (you made your bed peddling the 5000). ;) When I see it I will call it as I see it.:D

How convenient that you forgot your camera when you reviewed the Barco, and as Odyssey said why the hell are you looking at a contrast deprived stock unit. If you measured 720 on the Barco either you where shooting through inexpensive port glass with which you did not subject the junior apparatus in the comparison or your projectionist did not know what he was doing.

I have no doubt this projector is a magnificent solution for certain applications, but until you have a chance to see a turnkey superkontast installation (THE VERY FIRST 2D presentation interpreted to be a 3D dual projector installation) you are not permitted to spew Barco related verborreah.

Cheerio dear

Why won't you tell me what your DCI unit measures ?

Art

I did. Sequential is 5000:1 and ANSI is 850:1. If you mean my present (for one more week) DP-100, I posted about it many times in the past. I don't know why the performance of a more than 4 year old unit is relevant here, but the sequential is 2700-3000:1, depending on whether a magenta filter is used. I have not measured the ANSI CR, but I am guessing that it's about 650:1.

Wolgang,

I am sure that you will be delighted that I will now raise another issue in this, let's say, less than calm thread...but it is important.

Most people will use these projectors in a CIH setup. The Lumis requires an anamorphic lens to do this, the Barco DCI and Christie HD6K-M do not. Since you have done the definitive test of evaluating the effect of a high quality anamorphic lens on image quality, you opinion is important here. How do you tink that the overall image quality of the Lumis with anamorphic lens would compare to the Barco using ILS?

Wolgang,

I am sure that you will be delighted that I will now raise another issue in this, let's say, less than calm thread...but it is important.

Most people will use these projectors in a CIH setup. The Lumis requires an anamorphic lens to do this, the Barco DCI and Christie HD6K-M do not. Since you have done the definitive test of evaluating the effect of a high quality anamorphic lens on image quality, you opinion is important here. How do you tink that the overall image quality of the Lumis with anamorphic lens would compare to the Barco using ILS?


I would imagine ILS requires a CRT like rigid placement of the projector.. I imagine ,for many, that is a difficult task to accomplish.. I know there are many lens options but is this a real issue?? I suspect it might be.. No such issue using a anamorphic lens..

CM Pardon me if I take any of your SIM2 putative proclamations with a grain of salt (you made your bed peddling the 5000). ;)
Peter thats simply garbage, and you know that. The HT5k is a fine unit, and univerally accepted as such among those deemed agenda free. Im am not the only one to sing the praises of that unit, far from it.

Your need to get personal has already resulted in threads being butchered. No need to repeat that here. This is a Lumis thread, show some dignified restraint, no matter how uncharacteristic that may be.

Im also not the only one to have made the same comparison and arrive at the same conclusion

If you measured 720 on the Barco you did not know what you were doing.

Thats simply not the case. I clearly stated that the unit was tested, not that I tested it. I don't do any testing, there are far better qualified people than me to do that.

If a unit is rated at around 800 ANSI, 720 is an entirely appropriate measurement and is within any normal margins. Its certainly not a slight on the machine. If you wish, Ill change the number to 850 just to suit you:D The fact is that it measured 720. Just as the fact remains that, in overall presentation, the Lumis provides a superior image.

I would imagine ILS requires a CRT like rigid placement of the projector.. I imagine ,for many, that is a difficult task to accomplish.. I know there are many lens options but is this a real issue?? I suspect it might be.. No such issue using a anamorphic lens..

No, but you are partially right. You have to be in the zoom range so that you can do the two image sizes required. Since there is a large choice of lenses, with overlapping zoom ranges, this is not that difficult to do, but there will be installations where it's not possible.

coldmachine,

Since you seem to have easy access to the Barco DP-1500 and have compared it to the Lumis, can you get the Barco PCF file for me. The people operating the projector will know what it is and it's very easy to download from the projector. It can be done in less than 5 minutes time. This would tell me the exact calibration and setup so that I would be better able to understand your comparison.

that's my fear too
i have an ISCO II here with a C3X 1080 for test and it vignets slightly (but it's place at short throw, 5.6meters from a 4meter screen scope.
is the schneider like the ISCOII or even smaller "eye" ?The CineDigitar is slightly smaller than the old Isco II IIRC.

I did. Sequential is 5000:1 and ANSI is 850:1. If you mean my present (for one more week) DP-100, I posted about it many times in the past. I don't know why the performance of a more than 4 year old unit is relevant here, but the sequential is 2700-3000:1, depending on whether a magenta filter is used. I have not measured the ANSI CR, but I am guessing that it's about 650:1.

Interesting. This would be above anything anyone has ever quoted for these units including Wolfgang.

Art

I would imagine ILS requires a CRT like rigid placement of the projector.. I imagine ,for many, that is a difficult task to accomplish.. I know there are many lens options but is this a real issue?? I suspect it might be.. No such issue using a anamorphic lens..

Jeff i did your numbers and your theater is in the sweet spot for either a barco or a titan so probably a Christie too.


The lack of servo zoom does not preclude the Lumis from being an excellent choice for a top shelf HT, I would just do a compromised AR setup consistent with the zeitgeist of the American Cinematographers Society preferred aspect ratio: 2.0

Considering the Barrage of 3-D films to come in Blue Ray next year a taller aspect ratio is probably more desirable to reduce ghosting.

Which reminds me what is the 3d frequency of this projector will it do double flash triple flash?

This week there is a press release coming from Digital Projection regarding enhancements to the Titan line SPECIFICALLY 3D.

Wolgang,

I am sure that you will be delighted that I will now raise another issue in this, let's say, less than calm thread...but it is important.

Most people will use these projectors in a CIH setup. The Lumis requires an anamorphic lens to do this, the Barco DCI and Christie HD6K-M do not. Since you have done the definitive test of evaluating the effect of a high quality anamorphic lens on image quality, you opinion is important here. How do you tink that the overall image quality of the Lumis with anamorphic lens would compare to the Barco using ILS?


What a surprise post, MTF didn't get it ?:rolleyes:

Interesting. This would be above anything anyone has ever quoted for these units including Wolfgang.

Art

If you read my above posts you will see that they confirm Odyssey's specs. Considering Odyssey is using some of the same people I use for my mods it's not surprising.

If you read my above posts you will see that they confirm Odyssey's specs. Considering Odyssey is using some of the same people I use for my mods it's not surprising.

I really believe that even you are going to have to admit, at some point ,that some of these better consumer units are producing a superior picture to your DCI unit.

Unless Barco decides to institute some of the elegant contrast enhancing technologies into the units ,as SIM has ,they are at the wall.

Art

If you read my above posts you will see that they confirm Odyssey's specs. Considering Odyssey is using some of the same people I use for my mods it's not surprising.

I thought you said it was over 6000:1 like my HT5K ?

Art

What a surprise post, MTF didn't get it ?:rolleyes:

Should we just ignore the issue? Actually, Wolfgang does not have MTF data, but he should have an opinion about visual quality.

Unless Barco decides to institute some of the elegant contrast enhancing technologies into the units ,as SIM has ,they are at the wall.

Until fairly recently we believed the Dinosaurs died out because the failed to adapt. That is certainly the case with DCI units, there is no serious progress there

We have subsequently learned that the Dinosaurs died out as a result of a meteorite impact. The Lumis may not be that meteorite, but its certainly the harbinger of doom.

There are a number units currently available that provide an overall superior image to a DCI unit. They are even further limited without the relevant content.

I really believe that even you are going to have to admit, at some point ,that some of these better consumer units are producing a superior picture to your DCI unit.

Unless Barco decides to institute some of the elegant contrast enhancing technologies into the units ,as SIM has ,they are at the wall.

Art

How do you know all of this? Have you seen a contrast enhanced Barco unit? Have you seen a full set of comparative measurements?

That is certainly the case with DCI units, there is no serious progress there


Of course, you know the details of R&D at TI and the DCI licensees so that you can make this statement as something certain.

How do you know all of this? Have you seen a contrast enhanced Barco unit? Have you seen a full set of comparative measurements?

Nope ,nor have you seen a Lumis ? This is getting really strange. You and Peter keep discussing how much better your units are than something like the Lumis in the Lumis thread. There is a DCI section. This reminds me of the CRT bashing Tryg used to do, wait ,and you too.

Art

Of course, you know the details of R&D at TI and the DCI licensees so that you can make this statement as something certain.

My dad is bigger than your dad.

Is this what this thread has come to?

Can we please resurrect this thread? It was supposed to be about the Lumis.

Nope ,nor have you seen a Lumis ? This is getting really strange. You and Peter keep discussing how much better your units are than something like the Lumis in the Lumis thread. There is a DCI section. This reminds me of the CRT bashing Tryg used to do.

Art

This is a complete distortion. I don't know how the Lumis will compare to the Barco DP-1500. That's the reason why I will test them. I have some thoughts about how they might compare and I have posted about that, but these are only guesses because I have not done the comparison yet. You are the one who does not seem to want to hear anything that might challenge your already decided view.

By the way, unless I am mistaken, this thread is not only about the Lumis, but also comparison of the Lumis to two other projectors, one of which is a Barco DCI unit. Why do you think that discussion of Barco DCI performance does not belong here?

Thanks for the comparison to Tryg. Does it make sense to you that I would actually purchase a projector, the Lumis, that I am trashing?

My dad is bigger than your dad.

Is this what this thread has come to?

Can we please resurrect this thread? It was supposed to be about the Lumis.

Can I have the Barco PCF file? Yes or no.

Wolgang,

I am sure that you will be delighted that I will now raise another issue in this, let's say, less than calm thread...but it is important.

Most people will use these projectors in a CIH setup. The Lumis requires an anamorphic lens to do this, the Barco DCI and Christie HD6K-M do not. Since you have done the definitive test of evaluating the effect of a high quality anamorphic lens on image quality, you opinion is important here. How do you tink that the overall image quality of the Lumis with anamorphic lens would compare to the Barco using ILS?


i post here at avs many times that the use of such a anamorphic
lens even if you use the best one the isco3 will decrease the
picture quality.
as i had in the past years 3 stacks with 2 pr.
-2 qualia
-2 christie hd6k(the one with the xenon lamp)
-2 benq w 5000

with the qualia and at the christie i can test this isco lens and i found
out that the best is to have not such a lens in front of the
pr.
in some set up its may a option as it can encrease the light out but
when you look for the best picture quality you should not use it.

you can see the decrease easy when you can switch fast between it
but your eye cant remember it when you see today a set up
without the isco3 and tomorror with it.

you have to have switch between it in sec. to see the impact such
a lens have.
when i sale one of the christie hd 6k about 8 months ago
i demo this to the buyer.
than he not want it anymore.
to bad for me i not sale it and the lens is still for sale if someone need it.

one other good news.

thanks norman i will get tomorror the christie hd6km for a test.

sad i not have the lumis anymore but lets see how this unit compare to my
barco.

my guess is it will be better in some areas than the lumis as it have a very big lens ils lens system and high lumen output.
it will be better in cr. compare to my barco for sure but may
not as good in cr. as the lumis is.

lets see...........

again a lot of work:mad: and fun as well:)

when you look for the best picture quality you should not use it.

I plan on watching our C3X Lumis without a lens for that very reason. I'm doing the same right now with my dVision 1080p. Sharp as a knife images are what I like.

I plan on watching our C3X Lumis without a lens for that very reason. I'm doing the same right now with my dVision 1080p. Sharp as a knife images are what I like.

Hi Craig!

If you do it, I can assusre you, this will be a heavy upgrade, you will be very happy. I had the Christie 405 here over Christmas which is also a pd OEM and the lumis is shining high above. This will be also true concerning the newer pd models. I saw the Optix in Munich (March08) and again in October, where the 3-Chip helios was shown. Both not completed, as the new Philips lamps were not integrated. very good picture, I was assured much better than on cedia.

BUT: I was hunting them for serious specs and within 8 months (!) it was not possible even to get a dot. complete zero.

Now they have a press release out:

Anders Løkke, International Marketing and Communications Manager, notes the irony of projectiondesign this year choosing to showcase its products inside a ‘black box’ – a term often used to describe items of technology whose inner workings are kept secret from prying eyes. “Given that many of our projectors are used in research applications which, for political, scientific, or commercial reasons are top-secret, it seems rather appropriate for us to showcase the latest fruits of our own R&D in a way that is controlled and discreet,” he says.

Commenting on the new products to be showcased at ISE, Løkke says: “We pride ourselves on listening to our customers’ requirements and responding to them correctly.


This is not a joke, for me this is the highest stage of absolute mockery
(hope the term hits it) on interested customers as there were a lot also here on the forum.

Sorry if this might sound a little OT, but seems that Sim2 has also a big plus on that side. To hand out preprod units like shown here proves that at its best.

All the best for your plans!

Norman

[

I think if the black floor at 0 IRE can be maintained throughout the APL ranges than what MLang is stating could be closer to the truth, but this is never the case and often quite far from the case.

Overall I think on/off contrast ratio is a metric that really tells very little of the story.

Good point and true but

I am really talking about the on/off contrast ratio setting as an upper limit on the dynamic range of the greyscale which is the transfer function of the projector system and influences not only the blacks but how every color is displayed in the system at every APL value. If a system has a lot of pixel crosstalk its image will be highly compromised even if it has a great on/off CR but if it has a very poor on/off cr you are severely limited to what you can do improve the quality of the system. The engineers a TI did not go to great lengths to increase the on/off contrast ratio of their DLP chips just to make darker black bars. they spent the research money to improve intrascene contrast at all APL values and color saturation at all APl values

The led counter example was a bit disingenuous because the led is illuminating the whole chip and if you set it at a zero black level you will not have any contrast. a better example is a CRT where each of the individual pixels can be completely turned off

I have not seen the LG display but I have seen the Pioneer Kuru Plasma and it produces the best images of any plasma display I have ever seen and it does this because of its deep blacks

Even with a high APl image , there are almost always sections of the image that have a low APl value but even with high apl undersaturated colors there is a mix of low level intensities. so you might have a color at 30 percent APl with a mix of 60 percent red + 39 percent green + 1 percent blue. If you have a low dynamic range that color will be undersaturated.

This is a complete distortion. I don't know how the Lumis will compare to the Barco DP-1500. That's the reason why I will test them. I have some thoughts about how they might compare and I have posted about that, but these are only guesses because I have not done the comparison yet. You are the one who does not seem to want to hear anything that might challenge your already decided view.

By the way, unless I am mistaken, this thread is not only about the Lumis, but also comparison of the Lumis to two other projectors, one of which is a Barco DCI unit. Why do you think that discussion of Barco DCI performance does not belong here?

Thanks for the comparison to Tryg. Does it make sense to you that I would actually purchase a projector, the Lumis, that I am trashing?

Your welcome to continue to say how you feel DCI projectors are better in the Lumis( you are going to anyway) thread but I wish you would at least least acknowledge the impressive things the Lumis is doing.

Neither you nor Peter are going to do this. Instead we get into how you feel that with the DCI units MTF is an advantage.

I feel that this projector(the Lumis) is shaping up to be one of the best things out there) I really don't know why you are in this with the DCI discussion.

I do know that Alan, CM, Wolfgang and his friend all seem to consider the Lumis on the appropriate screen size as a contendere in every category and best in show in others (including DCI).

Art

i post here at avs many times that the use of such a anamorphic
lens even if you use the best one the isco3 will decrease the
picture quality.
as i had in the past years 3 stacks with 2 pr.
-2 qualia
-2 christie hd6k(the one with the xenon lamp)
-2 benq w 5000

with the qualia and at the christie i can test this isco lens and i found
out that the best is to have not such a lens in front of the
pr.
in some set up its may a option as it can encrease the light out but
when you look for the best picture quality you should not use it.

you can see the decrease easy when you can switch fast between it
but your eye cant remember it when you see today a set up
without the isco3 and tomorror with it.

you have to have switch between it in sec. to see the impact such
a lens have.
when i sale one of the christie hd 6k about 8 months ago
i demo this to the buyer.
than he not want it anymore.
to bad for me i not sale it and the lens is still for sale if someone need it.


Wolfgang,
I'm not questioning you ,since in my experience on the forum you are of the most unbiased guys, but how do you feel about the cinem4home stuff showing only a negligible difference with ANSI with the Schneider and zooming.

This is a complete distortion. I don't know how the Lumis will compare to the Barco DP-1500. ?

I just want to point out this reaction to me letting you know you haven't seen a Lumis when you called me on that I'd not seen a modded Barco.

art

I responded to the posts here with these:
A projector with a Low MTF measured at the screen will always produce a poor image always
Overall I think on/off contrast ratio is a metric that really tells very little of the story. After all, who watches a 0 IRE screen?!?in the thread started about MTF here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15665859#post15665859

--Darin