I keep hearing the term imaging and when I sit down to listen to music since upgrading my speakers I find myself trying to hear this "imaging" in my room.

Is it being able to close ones eyes and pinpoint where each instrument is? I can do that with the vocals if the speakers are close enough, but not the instruments. And when I spread the speakers farther apart I lose the ability to pinpoint even the vocals.

Is it the speaker that is not doing its job or am I searching for the wrong things in trying to discover "imaging"?

What kind of speakers are you using?

Wow... this is a very big can of worms; and dependent on many variables. But first it might help to understand a little bit about how we hear.

If someone stands behind you, off to an angle to one ear or another, and makes a noise, you will have a very good sense of exactly where the sound originated. Why? Because one ear heard it first, and the other heard it a split second later. The brain receives these signals and calculates the time (or phase) differential to determine the location.

This is why stereo was invented. The two points of origin allow for this difference in timing to reach your ears. It is also the reason why your setup should have each speaker equidistant form the listening position.

But there are a whole lot of variables that would smear this image.

1.) Your loudspeakers design. Most speakers use multiple drivers to reproduce different frequencies of the same instrument. The drivers need to be aligned so that their time-based origination point is the same for all frequencies (and various crossover designs can also be responsible for phase distortion). If the design is marginal, even good stereo recordings will have an unstable image due to some frequencies not arriving at the same time as others.

2.) Your room. Nearby reflections in your room can also smear the coherency of this time based info. An exaggeration of this would be yelling into an echoey canyon where there are so many different reflections it is impossible to identify the sounds origination point. The two differently timed signals your brain would use to calculate the source are too drown out by the various timing of all of the reflections. Our brains are good but they're not that good.

3.) Your source material. Back in the days, most Hi-Fi recordings were stereo, where the engineer used carefully placed microphones to capture this time based info. Most pianos today are recorded with two (or more) mics, with one facing the low notes and other facing the high notes. This helps to convey the pianos size from left to right in the recording.

But many instruments now-a-days are simply captured with a single mic (mono), and routed to the left or right using a pan pot on the mixer; this pot simply varies the loudness across the two channels to make it seem like it is left of center (or what have you). These "multi mic'ed mono" recordings have less than stellar imaging characteristics than real stereo recordings.

Better recordings use more mics - usually in stereo pairs on various instruments, but even here the engineer needs to take great care to prevent spill from other instruments reaching mics of the intended ones as this spill will affect the crucial phase coherence of the stereo signal. This is usually accomplished by choosing mics with the ideal directional characteristics, using gobos to block sounds from one instrument from the other, or by recording instruments one at a time and mixing them together later for the final product.

All of this is a mixed bag of course, and if the engineer is careless (and way too many are), yuo end up with recordings with sounds all over the place and very little natural imaging.

OK... that's Imaging 101; and really only the tip of the iceberg. Hope it helps with your ponderings.

With a studio recording or a studio-manipulated live recording, proper imaging creates the soundstage as intended by the studio engineer. So, it is somewhat dependent upon the CD being mixed well in the first place. But, yes, it is created by the speakers upon playback. It is responsible for the depth, height, and breadth of the soundstage as well as the localization of each individual sound or instrument within the soundstage. When you hear an instrument that sounds like it is coming from neither speaker, but from somewhere else, entirely, that is imaging. If the drums sound like they are coming from the center, that is imaging. If the singer's voice sounds like it coming from somewhere between the speakers, that is imaging.

Different speakers image better than others. Proper, or good, imaging is very dependent upon the room and the speakers' placement relative to the rest of the room. If the speakers are too far apart or too close together, the imaging will not be correct. Toe-ing in speakers can sometimes improve the imaging at the expense of the breadth of the soundstage.

"What kind of speakers are you using?"


Paradigm Millenia 200 Towers -They are the lifestyle type speakers, but these are suppose to be considered better than average for that type of speaker.

s.bradford and sivadselim:

So with good imaging if I close my eyes I should be able to pick out instruments individually across the front of the room?

If I am understanding this correctly, you are saying that the cd itself could be recorded in a less than opportune environment and so even with the perfect setup, the imaging would be lousy. To eliminate this equation from my setup process, could you perhaps suggest a CD I could purchase that you know was recorded in true stereo correctly and has great imaging?

almost anything by patricia barber. should be able to easily differentiate where all the cymbals are, piano, her voice, guitar etc. ridin with the king-clapton and bb king--listen to where bb's and claptons voices and guitars come from. this is the most obvious example that comes to mind right now (check out dark side of the moon on multichannel sacd--what a trip!).

and yes, you have the idea!

s.bradford and sivadselim:

So with good imaging if I close my eyes I should be able to pick out instruments individually across the front of the room?If that is what the engineer who mixed the recording intended, yes.


If I am understanding this correctly, you are saying that the cd itself could be recorded in a less than opportune environment and so even with the perfect setup, the imaging would be lousy.If you are talking about a live recording, yes, it could have been recorded in an inopportune environment, but more likely it may have been recorded poorly. Or both. For a studio recoding that is mixed in the studio, though, it could just be mixed poorly. The engineer's technique is what brings the recording to life. It shouldn't sound flat and one-dimensional. Unless that is the effect he is shooting for. A well mixed recording can sound like magic.


.............could you perhaps suggest a CD I could purchase that you know was recorded in true stereo correctly and has great imaging?Well, how many CDs do you own? How 'bout you name some of them that you think might be good candidates? What kind of music do you listen to? When you put in a CD that has great imaging, you know it. And most should and do have good imaging if they were mixed by a decent engineer.


More important than any of this would probably be a picture of you current room and setup. Are your speakers hanging on the wall? If not, how close might they be to the wall.

Narrowing down the genres you listen to will most likely help folks make recommendations. Many outstanding recordings don't necessarily image all that well, especially in pop music. You will most likely find the best and worst of it with symphony orchestras. The overwhelming majority of my classical music is on vinyl, but if you're into jazz vocals, two CDs that come to mind are:

Diana Krall - The girl in the other room.

Holly Cole - Shade

s.bradford and sivadselim:

So with good imaging if I close my eyes I should be able to pick out instruments individually across the front of the room?

If I am understanding this correctly, you are saying that the cd itself could be recorded in a less than opportune environment and so even with the perfect setup, the imaging would be lousy. To eliminate this equation from my setup process, could you perhaps suggest a CD I could purchase that you know was recorded in true stereo correctly and has great imaging?

http://www.chesky.com/core/productlist.cfm?productcategoryid=1&genre_sysid=10016&name=Test%20Discs

I listen to all types of music but the pop rock I have been listening to sounds better on the new speakers but there isn't much imaging going on. Some recent cd's include Chicago, Journey, Elton John, Bee Gees, Def leppard, Celine Dion and a few Steely Dan cd's.

Here's a pic of my current setup. The speakers were originally on each side of the TV but I moved the right one to the other side of the fireplace to open up the "imaging" but I instead lost it. I thought they were too close on either side of the TV though.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/mcatucci/sp2.jpg

With all due respect, your system is tucked off in a corner of your room. You will need to rearrange your room around your audio system if you want best results.

Which Steely Dan CDs, MCATUCCI?

And, yes, your setup is not ideal. Still, you should be able to hear some imaging.

s.bradford

As nice as that looks, I just don't have the room for it. What you see in the picture is what I have to work with. The other walls either have doors, windows or are too short. Whoever desgined my house didn't have a clue.

sivadselim,

Steely Dan:

Two Aginst Nature
A Decade of Steely Dan
AJA

I also have some Anita Baker and David Sanborn cd's I may try.

Question -Will bigger bands (bigger may not even be the right word -maybe "rock" is a better description) like Daltry/Chicago/Journey/Styx/Leppard/Van Halen, etc...will those type of bands give you imaging as well? It seems like the rock type bands music all blends together in a sort of controlled mess. It sounds miles better on these Paradigms than it did on my last pair of speakers, but is the type of music I listen to dictating how clear the imaging will come across?

Do the words "Imaging" and "Soundstage" mean the same thing?

s.bradford
What you see in the picture is what I have to work with.

Can you post a sketch of your floor plan? I can't see the whole room from your picture.

Do the words "Imaging" and "Soundstage" mean the same thing?

Not really. The term soundstage defines the depth and width of where the imaging resides. Well designed loudspeakers coupled with a good room usually provide a wider soundstage with more depth (3 dimensionality).

sivadselim,

Steely Dan:

Two Aginst Nature
A Decade of Steely Dan
AJA

I also have some Anita Baker and David Sanborn cd's I may try.

Question -Will bigger bands (bigger may not even be the right word -maybe "rock" is a better description) like Daltry/Chicago/Journey/Styx/Leppard/Van Halen, etc...will those type of bands give you imaging as well? It seems like the rock type bands music all blends together in a sort of controlled mess. It sounds miles better on these Paradigms than it did on my last pair of speakers, but is the type of music I listen to dictating how clear the imaging will come across?

For pop music it is more about the recording than the genre. I haven't heard all of the works you mention, but my Styx stuff is pretty bad, and AJA is a prime example of an over-produced, "multi-mic'd mono" recording. Since you like Chicago, Seven is a pretty good recording.

s.bradford,

Here's a sketch....(red lines are doors and windows, green line is fireplace, blue X is location of Audio/Video center.)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/mcatucci/roomlayout.jpg

here's a shot from farther back...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/mcatucci/sp2.jpg

sivadselim,

Steely Dan:

Two Aginst Nature
Two against Nature is very well-recorded and should provide you with plenty of imaging.

But, you have a tough room. Your setup is far from ideal. In just looking at that picture, your speaker that is on the fireplace stoop needs to be turned out into the room. In fact, for now, I would definitely align the front of each speaker so that is is parallel to the TV's screen, pointing in the same direction. And it may seem trivial, but it would help if both speakers were the same height. So, I wold put soimething under that left speaker to raise it to the same height as the right speaker.

s.bradford,

Here's a sketch....(red lines are doors and windows, green line is fireplace, blue X is location of Audio/Video center.)

What is the distance between the doors/window on the left wall?

What is the distance between the doors/window on the left wall?

7 and 1/2 feet between the two doorways.

Two against Nature is very well-recorded and should provide you with plenty of imaging.

But, you have a tough room. Your setup is far from ideal. In just looking at that picture, your speaker that is on the fireplace stoop needs to be turned out into the room. In fact, for now, I would definitely align the front of each speaker so that is is parallel to the TV's screen, pointing in the same direction. And it may seem trivial, but it would help if both speakers were the same height. So, I wold put soimething under that left speaker to raise it to the same height as the right speaker.

I had the speaker turned in that way because I sit in my recliner when I listen to music. The recliner is off to the side, you can barely see the arm of it in the picture. If I sit on the couch, then the right speaker is much closer to me than the left and the vocals direct to that speaker and that center image is gone.

I spent a few hours trying to place them today. I used a Dire Straits cd called "Brothers in Arms" and a live solo cd by Chicago lead singer Robert Lamm that actually "imaged" very well. Would you believe some of the best imaging I got was when I took the right speaker and placed it all the way over to the right in front of the plant in the picture.

In your opinion am I better off moving the right one over that far or should I leave it equal distance from the TV to match the left speaker and just adjust height as you said and direction?

If someone stands behind you, off to an angle to one ear or another, and makes a noise, you will have a very good sense of exactly where the sound originated. Why? Because one ear heard it first, and the other heard it a split second later. The brain receives these signals and calculates the time (or phase) differential to determine the location.
Actually it also has a lot to do with the sound reflecting differently from your pinna depending on the direction before it reaches the inner ear.

If you could mount your flat panel over the fireplace with a mount so that it could be angled down would enable you to put the R&L speakers on either side of the fireplace. But I am sure it would be difficult with the stone on the wall. How deep is the mantel? If it was deep enough you could place the flat panel on it and mount the center under the mantel. I have seen a number of systems where people have mounted flat panels over fireplaces. Tough room for sure. Good luck:).

Bill

If you could mount your flat panel over the fireplace with a mount so that it could be angled down would enable you to put the R&L speakers on either side of the fireplace. But I am sure it would be difficult with the stone on the wall. How deep is the mantel? If it was deep enough you could place the flat panel on it and mount the center under the mantel. I have seen a number of systems where people have mounted flat panels over fireplaces. Tough room for sure. Good luck:).

Bill

I concur with Bill. That is really what you should be investing in. A better layout of your room.

test,

PS... that room looks very familiar. Was it you that bought a new sub with the same issues?

Well since your speakers are relatively small and easy to move, one option is to place them somewhere more conducive to better sound while you're listening, and then put them back out of the way when you're not.

A set up similar to the layout below, would likely let your system develop a decent sound stage and imaging...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=131073&stc=1&d=1232839353

Personally, I think mounting the TV above the fireplace is a distraction. It places the TV too high and makes speaker placement an issue. For example, if the TV was mounted on the mantel, his floorstanding speaker's tweeter level would be well below the image. I've also never liked craning my neck back to watch something. YMMV.

I like the idea of placing the TV and LCR on the wall between the two doorways. 7 1/2 feet is a good amount of separation - especially if the sofa was 11 - 12 feet from the TV. The doorways also provide plenty of space before the adjacent walls (alleviating issues with sidewall reflections). Of course, this means moving some furniture around...

7 and 1/2 feet between the two doorways.

That seems by far the best wall to place your system on (IMHO). What is your reason against this?

My bad, I did not see the room layout drawing. I agree that the wall between the two doors would be ideal if the furniture can be moved.

I agree placement over the fireplace is not ideal but from some it is the only option. For speaker placement if all the speakers are on the same level (height wise) SQ should be fine. The main concern for audio SQ would be the center speaker and not the R&L speakers IMO. So if the center is located close to the panel this would cover that aspect, again IMO:).

Bill

That seems by far the best wall to place your system on (IMHO). What is your reason against this?



WAF

She does not like the idea of having the couch back against the windows.

WAF

She does not like the idea of having the couch back against the windows.

I was thinking that might be the case. Your sketch doesn't show dimensions, but if it is to scale, I think you might be able to get away with the couch coming out from that right wall a couple of feet or three.

Think about a triangle. If the speakers are 7 feet apart, you could easily get away with the seating as close as 7 or 8 feet from them (especially if you toe them in a bit). It would still be an order of magnitude better than that corner.

But... you have to pick your battles regarding WAF. Very rare they allow you to make the A/V system the focus of the room... especially the living room (probably one reason I'm not married).

Good luck with whatever you end up with. :)

WAF

She does not like the idea of having the couch back against the windows.Well it's hard to tell where your couch is from your photo, and you didn't include it in your sketch.

My recommendation still stands. Pull the speakers out from their storage/TV position when you are sitting and listening to music. Where ever it is that you sit, put the speakers well away from the walls and equidistant from you in a triangle shape. The distance from the walls will significantly delay the reflected sound that reaches your ears, and the direct sounds will form your well imaged sound stage. Then when you're done listening, just put them back by the TV.

Imaging. If you don't know what it is, you need new speakers. And if you want to know what it is, pick up a pair of ***.


Bonus points to he/she who guesses what "***" represents.

Like my speaker's cabinets ;)

http://www.roundsound.com/photos/about/solo205.jpg

I was thinking that might be the case. Your sketch doesn't show dimensions, but if it is to scale, I think you might be able to get away with the couch coming out from that right wall a couple of feet or three.

Think about a triangle. If the speakers are 7 feet apart, you could easily get away with the seating as close as 7 or 8 feet from them (especially if you toe them in a bit). It would still be an order of magnitude better than that corner.

But... you have to pick your battles regarding WAF. Very rare they allow you to make the A/V system the focus of the room... especially the living room (probably one reason I'm not married).

Good luck with whatever you end up with. :)

Thanks! We talked it over and while I know she would let me do it, I know she won't be happy with it. I think I'm going to go with my original idea and just do a home theater up here with some Mirage Nanosats, which are very forgiving on placement and move my listening "room" downstairs into the basement -which is finished but is another obstacle course to overcome with a pool table, treadmill and support columns :eek:

Worse part about it is I brought these Millenia BECAUSE of where they were going. Had I known this was not going to work out I would have brought the Paradigms I wanted orginally. And the guy won't do an exchange. Oh well. live and learn right.....

Anyway I appreciate your time and help -and everyone elses!! :)

-Mike

Would you believe some of the best imaging I got was when I took the right speaker and placed it all the way over to the right in front of the plant in the picture.Of course you did.


In your opinion am I better off moving the right one over that far or should I leave it equal distance from the TV to match the left speaker and just adjust height as you said and direction?Well, for stereo listening, yes. Although just to the right of the fireplace should be fine.

Do you have a surround sound system or not?

Imaging. If you don't know what it is, you need new speakers.That's not true at all. And terrible advice. The OP's situation clearly demonstrates this. It isn't his speakers. It's the way his speakers are set up in his room.

Of course you did.


Well, for stereo listening, yes. Although just to the right of the fireplace should be fine.

Do you have a surround sound system or not?


Yes, I do have a surround system. I'm using an Onkyo 606 receiver. The speakers are the Millenia's up front as L/R with a Millenia 20 as a center. For surrounds I am using some Polk R150 bookshelves.

Yes, I do have a surround system. I'm using an Onkyo 606 receiver. The speakers are the Millenia's up front as L/R with a Millenia 20 as a center. For surrounds I am using some Polk R150 bookshelves.So, obviously, sliding your right speaker over may be great for your 2-channel listening but not at all ideal for your HT listening.

With your speakers so close together relative to your listening position and room, the soundstage that is cast is going to be too small. And any imaging that you get is going to be restricted by the size of that soundstage.

If you were serious about your audio you'ld move your fireplace.

if you were serious about your audio you'ld move your fireplace.

yes! :D

Bonus points to he/she who guesses what "***" represents.
...PSB or PMC are my guesses.

I can haz cheezburger?

Imaging. If you don't know what it is, you need new speakers. And if you want to know what it is, pick up a pair of ***.


Bonus points to he/she who guesses what "***" represents.

Headphones.

Imaging. If you don't know what it is, you need new speakers.

Oh and, I don't think that's entirely fair to say.. as has already been mentioned.

Imaging. If you don't know what it is, you need new speakers. And if you want to know what it is, pick up a pair of ***.


Bonus points to he/she who guesses what "***" represents.hookers?

Try moving your white unit a bit to the left and put your left speaker between it and the door and put the right speaker on the right side of the fireplace. Should make the left seat on the couch as good as possible.

Just a thought...

Try moving your white unit a bit to the left and put your left speaker between it and the door and put the right speaker on the right side of the fireplace. Should make the left seat on the couch as good as possible.

Just a thought...


You know...that's not a half bad idea. Let's see if I can get the wife to go for it. I didn't think of it because I thought that would be too far, but the seperation with the right one moved over to the other side of the fireplace actually improved the home theater performance.

I'll try it and report back :)

Try moving your white unit a bit to the left and put your left speaker between it and the door and put the right speaker on the right side of the fireplace. Should make the left seat on the couch as good as possible.

Just a thought...



Rick,
You're a genius! Worked like a charm and even passed the WAF. In fact it even opened up some better options for placing my nanosats as surrounds.

I never saw it as an option. Thank you -you have solved a major issue for me.

Rick,
You're a genius! Worked like a charm and even passed the WAF. In fact it even opened up some better options for placing my nanosats as surrounds.

I never saw it as an option. Thank you -you have solved a major issue for me.

Great, glad to hear it's both effective and WAF-accepted.

You should really enjoy hearing things go from side-to-side in movies now with adequate separation.

Great, glad to hear it's both effective and WAF-accepted.

You should really enjoy hearing things go from side-to-side in movies now with adequate separation.


That's the first thing I noticed when testing with the Dark Knight. Sounds were now coming from "over there" instead of right on the screen. I see alot of theaters setup, especially with wall hangers, where the speakers are right next to the TV. I really prefer this seperation. It's much, much better.

My opinion is keep your tv right there and move your speakers to either side of the fireplace - equidistant to your listening area (which should be in the middle of the two speakers).

When you listen to music you will enjoy it. Movies/TV will sound horrible. Maybe, one day, your can remove the fireplace mantle and "carefully" mount your tv onto the stone.

I remember experiencing "imaging" before I even knew of the term. When I first got my Paradigm Studio 60's (just 2 channel) I remember playing some 360 games and it felt like I had surround sound. I could tell direction MUCH better than I thought I should be able to. Someone off the to the right didn't feel like it was just where the right speaker was, it felt like they were far, far off to the right. People mid-screen sounded to be coming from between the speakers.

Hell, on occasion I still get tricked into thinking I heard something in the room that was actually coming from the speakers/source.