Real interesting article at The Wall Street Journal on the big upcoming wave of TV manufacturer consolidation. Some excerpts:

TV Makers Confront a Shakeout
Big Manufacturers Start to Squeeze Smaller Rivals as Sales, Prices Shrink

The explosive growth in flat-panel television sets in recent years attracted a slew of companies into the TV market. But as sales slow and prices now decline sharply, larger manufacturers such as Sony Corp. and Samsung Electronics Co. are starting to squeeze out smaller rivals.

With world-wide television revenue forecast to fall 18% this year, television makers are struggling with a slowdown in consumer spending. But the recession could deal a more punishing blow to several discount or second-tier brands lacking the financial clout of larger manufacturers.

Industry executives expect only a handful of companies -- Sony, Samsung, Panasonic Corp., Sharp Co., LG Electronics Co. and Toshiba Corp. -- to survive the latest downturn. The others, they say, may be forced to either pull out of the TV business, or join forces with a surviving entity.

Aggressive pricing from more established TV makers is eating into the price advantage of discount brands like Vizio Inc. and Westinghouse Digital Electronics LLC which took the market by storm several years ago with television sets significantly cheaper than established brands.

Second-tier Japanese brands such as Hitachi Corp. and Pioneer Corp., struggling to compete on price and selection, are losing valuable floor space at stores.

...The top five makers of plasma and LCD television sets accounted for 60% of all flat-panel TV sets sold in the third quarter of 2008, up from 53% in the year-earlier period, according to research firm DisplaySearch. They are expected to garner an even bigger share of total sales in fourth-quarter data because of discounting during the holiday sales period...

...The shrinking price gaps are leading consumers such as Nathan Walter to rethink their purchases. Since last month, Mr. Walter, an information-technology professional in Santa Barbara, Calif., has been looking for a 42-inch LCD flat panel TV to replace his 32-inch model.

Looking online, as well as in stores such as Best Buy and Sears, Mr. Walter says he has seen the top-tier brands, Samsung, Panasonic and Sony, offer sales with $300-to-$400 discounts, bringing them closer in price to brands such as Vizio...

...Smaller TV makers such as Hitachi and Pioneer -- early leaders in the plasma-TV market -- are losing market share and retail space, especially in North America. As rival LCD technology began to become more popular, Hitachi and Pioneer failed to sell enough TV sets to drive down costs and didn't introduce a wide-enough selection of television sizes and models...

...Last year, Pioneer said it would stop making its own plasma display panels, opting to buy panels from Panasonic. It will soon introduce LCD television sets using panels bought from rival Sharp. Hitachi also reached an agreement to procure part of its panel production from Panasonic...


Full article at: http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB123240562656295535-lMyQjAxMDI5MzIyMDQyMDA1Wj.html

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Real interesting article at The Wall Street Journal on the big upcoming wave of TV manufacturer consolidation. Some excerpts:

TV Makers Confront a Shakeout
Big Manufacturers Start to Squeeze Smaller Rivals as Sales, Prices Shrink

The explosive growth in flat-panel television sets in recent years attracted a slew of companies into the TV market. But as sales slow and prices now decline sharply, larger manufacturers such as Sony Corp. and Samsung Electronics Co. are starting to squeeze out smaller rivals.

With world-wide television revenue forecast to fall 18% this year, television makers are struggling with a slowdown in consumer spending. But the recession could deal a more punishing blow to several discount or second-tier brands lacking the financial clout of larger manufacturers.

Industry executives expect only a handful of companies -- Sony, Samsung, Panasonic Corp., Sharp Co., LG Electronics Co. and Toshiba Corp. -- to survive the latest downturn. The others, they say, may be forced to either pull out of the TV business, or join forces with a surviving entity.

Aggressive pricing from more established TV makers is eating into the price advantage of discount brands like Vizio Inc. and Westinghouse Digital Electronics LLC which took the market by storm several years ago with television sets significantly cheaper than established brands.

Second-tier Japanese brands such as Hitachi Corp. and Pioneer Corp., struggling to compete on price and selection, are losing valuable floor space at stores.

...The top five makers of plasma and LCD television sets accounted for 60% of all flat-panel TV sets sold in the third quarter of 2008, up from 53% in the year-earlier period, according to research firm DisplaySearch. They are expected to garner an even bigger share of total sales in fourth-quarter data because of discounting during the holiday sales period...

...The shrinking price gaps are leading consumers such as Nathan Walter to rethink their purchases. Since last month, Mr. Walter, an information-technology professional in Santa Barbara, Calif., has been looking for a 42-inch LCD flat panel TV to replace his 32-inch model.

Looking online, as well as in stores such as Best Buy and Sears, Mr. Walter says he has seen the top-tier brands, Samsung, Panasonic and Sony, offer sales with $300-to-$400 discounts, bringing them closer in price to brands such as Vizio...

...Smaller TV makers such as Hitachi and Pioneer -- early leaders in the plasma-TV market -- are losing market share and retail space, especially in North America. As rival LCD technology began to become more popular, Hitachi and Pioneer failed to sell enough TV sets to drive down costs and didn't introduce a wide-enough selection of television sizes and models...

...Last year, Pioneer said it would stop making its own plasma display panels, opting to buy panels from Panasonic. It will soon introduce LCD television sets using panels bought from rival Sharp. Hitachi also reached an agreement to procure part of its panel production from Panasonic...


Full article at: http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB123240562656295535-lMyQjAxMDI5MzIyMDQyMDA1Wj.html

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First time I've heard pioneer and hitachi called second tier, especially pioneer.

First time I've heard pioneer and hitachi called second tier, especially pioneer.

Perhaps they're talking marketshare, not quality?

First time I've heard pioneer and hitachi called second tier, especially pioneer.

Don't confuse that with the displays they manufacturer. They are second tier as player in display manufacturing game.

Anyway, this confirms my admonition that companies like Hitachi and Pioneer are not going to make it.

Don't confuse that with the displays they manufacturer. They are second tier as player in display manufacturing game.

Anyway, this confirms my admonition that companies like Hitachi and Pioneer are not going to make it.

Im not confused at all. Thats just what he wrote. I dont agree with it.

"Second-tier Japanese brands such as Hitachi Corp. and Pioneer Corp"

This summerizes their market appeal:

A spokeswoman for Pioneer said market share isn't its main concern because it is targeting a high-end, niche-market strategy with large TV sets. Given the recent economic slowdown, the company is reviewing all businesses, including its TV division. Pioneer plans to announce a new midterm business plan next month.

A spokeswoman for Hitachi said it is also not chasing the high-volume part of the TV market, instead focusing on more expensive, premium products. The company says while business conditions are tough for the entire industry, it has no plans to pull out of the television business.

As I stated in other posts and D-Nice as well...Pioneer's focus is to the HT buyer, while other manufacturer's are related to the family consumer buyer.

Chris

The article makes a huge mistake in these comparisons, especially when comparing pricing between Pioneer & Panasonic. Pioneer is not marketing to the average consumer, but rather a niche high-end market. You could say it's similar to Lexus marketing vs Chevrolet marketing. Chevrolet makes and sells many more cars than Lexus, and thus have a bigger impact on the car industry as a whole. Does that mean Lexus will stop making cars for its niche high-end buyers. No, of course not. Actually, Pioneer has put themselves in the best possible position to carry on making quality displays by outsourcing its most risky & expensive part...namely the glass units. That's a lot of red ink they just erased off their balance sheets, and now Pioneer R&D can concentrate more on the internal electronics and video processing, etc. In fact, Pioneer may even decide later to put their expertise & patented video tech into whatever medium they fit to choose, whether it be Plasma, LCD, OLED, etc. or all the above. That's a good position to be situated in, and not locked into one particular video tech.

This summerizes their market appeal:



As I stated in other posts and D-Nice as well...Pioneer's focus is to the HT buyer, while other manufacturer's are related to the family consumer buyer.

Chris

I noticed you posted as I was typing...looks like we are both in total agreement here.:D

Pioneer is not marketing to the average consumer, but rather a niche high-end market. You could say it's similar to Lexus marketing vs Chevrolet marketing. Chevrolet makes and sells many more cars than Lexus, and thus have a bigger impact on the car industry as a whole.

Does that mean Lexus will stop making cars for its niche high-end buyers. No, of course not.

Yes, but Lexus is of course just a division of Toyota, which DOES make products for the average consumer.

In fact, the average consumer is their bread and butter.

I noticed you posted as I was typing...looks like we are both in total agreement here.:D

Absolutely! :D I love your analogy and post as well. ;)

Chris

The article makes a huge mistake in these comparisons, especially when comparing pricing between Pioneer & Panasonic. Pioneer is not marketing to the average consumer, but rather a niche high-end market. You could say it's similar to Lexus marketing vs Chevrolet marketing. Chevrolet makes and sells many more cars than Lexus, and thus have a bigger impact on the car industry as a whole. Does that mean Lexus will stop making cars for its niche high-end buyers. No, of course not. Actually, Pioneer has put themselves in the best possible position to carry on making quality displays by outsourcing its most risky & expensive part...namely the glass units. That's a lot of red ink they just erased off their balance sheets, and now Pioneer R&D can concentrate more on the internal electronics and video processing, etc. In fact, Pioneer may even decide later to put their expertise & patented video tech into whatever medium they fit to choose, whether it be Plasma, LCD, OLED, etc. or all the above. That's a good position to be situated in, and not locked into one particular video tech.
IIRC, one of Pioneer's innovations for improving their PDP black levels was a reshaping the plasma cell, somewhat turning it on it's side, in order to reduce the luminescent footprint. This was, to my understanding, unique to Pioneer panels, and lowered the overall "glow" (please correct me if I am misunderstanding or just flat out wrong about this). I realize Pioneer innovates in other forms as well, such as scaling and processing, etc. For this post, I am speaking only of the cells themselves.

If Matsushita supplies the panels, is it fair to speculate that one of three things might occur as a result?
1) Separate production line dedicated to Pioneer glass, produced to Pioneer defined methods and/or spec.
2) Common production lines in which Panasonic and Pioneer panels (as well as other Matsushita sourced OEM glass for players such as Vizio, etc) all benefit from Pioneer cell technology.
3) Common production lines where Pioneer's unique cell architecture is discarded, with some measure or degree of Pioneer PQ sacrificed in the process.

Just wondering ...

The article makes a huge mistake in these comparisons, especially when comparing pricing between Pioneer & Panasonic. Pioneer is not marketing to the average consumer, but rather a niche high-end market.

Pioneer panels sit on shelves next to all the other manuf. in all the usual big box stores. Including Costso. Not so niche high-end IMO.

You could say it's similar to Lexus marketing vs Chevrolet marketing. Chevrolet makes and sells many more cars than Lexus, and thus have a bigger impact on the car industry as a whole. Does that mean Lexus will stop making cars for its niche high-end buyers. No, of course not.
Marketing is great if it works.
Lexus has made Toyota lots of money.


Actually, Pioneer has put themselves in the best possible position to carry on making quality displays by outsourcing its most risky & expensive part...namely the glass units. That's a lot of red ink they just erased off their balance sheets, and now Pioneer R&D can concentrate more on the internal electronics and video processing, etc.

While on the face of it that sounds great , there comes a point where volume falls to such a level that even outsourcing becomes cost prohibitive.When Pioneer announced this deal with Panasonic they had a planned production of 480k panels.As of last quarter they where down to 350k panels.The same problem they had occurs again.They can no longer achieve any kind of economy of scale.



In fact, Pioneer may even decide later to put their expertise & patented video tech into whatever medium they fit to choose, whether it be Plasma, LCD, OLED, etc. or all the above. That's a good position to be situated in, and not locked into one particular video tech.

Perhaps but R+D takes cash and Pioneer is currently funding with Corporate bonds to stabalise their situation.Their last projection for free cash flow is now Fiscal 2011.

IIRC, one of Pioneer's innovations for improving their PDP black levels was a reshaping the plasma cell, somewhat turning it on it's side, in order to reduce the luminescent footprint. This was, to my understanding, unique to Pioneer panels, and lowered the overall "glow" (please correct me if I am misunderstanding or just flat out wrong about this). I realize Pioneer innovates in other forms as well, such as scaling and processing, etc. For this post, I am speaking only of the cells themselves.

If Matsushita supplies the panels, is it fair to speculate that one of three things might occur as a result?
1) Separate production line dedicated to Pioneer glass, produced to Pioneer defined methods and/or spec.
2) Common production lines in which Panasonic and Pioneer panels (as well as other Matsushita sourced OEM glass for players such as Vizio, etc) all benefit from Pioneer cell technology.
3) Common production lines where Pioneer's unique cell architecture is discarded, with some measure or degree of Pioneer PQ sacrificed in the process.

Just wondering ...

From my reading and understanding it will be #1 on your list. Panasonic is opening a brand new glass factory, and Pioneer is transferring over 300 employees (engineers, techs, etc.) from their older factory over to Panasonic's new factory to help run the line and to insure panels are being produced to Pioneer's specs. That is what I recall from reading about it over a year ago.

VFR, you believe what you want. I just don't agree. I've been reading these doom & gloom "sky is falling" Chicken Little stories for over 5 years. You can like it or not. No skin off my nose. Pioneer has been producing the absolute very best displays on the planet for going on 3 straight generations, and before that they were a very close second. I think Pioneer will survive this economic meltdown just fine, thank you very much, and I well expect their next 10G displays will also be waaaay ahead of the the TV herd.

Real interesting article at The Wall Street Journal on the big upcoming wave of TV manufacturer consolidation.


System shock...the WSJ article is definitely onto the fall out likely to happen in the flat panel plasma business. I posted this in the wrong forum earlier however I thought those interested in this topic would find it of interest.

The Pioneer Kuro and Elite are the best screens on the market today but consumers simply aren't stepping up to buy them in enough numbers to keep the business going based on Pioneer's latest financials. What's going on? How can the best screens on the market by almost all expert reviews not be making money for it's manufacturer?

Pioneer has had 4 running years of annual income losses, much of their losses caused by its plasma business. http://pioneer.jp/corp/ir/corp_info/highlights/index-e.html
Fired their President last Fall http://pioneer.jp/press-e/2008/pdf/1030-3.pdf
Eliminated their stock dividend payout http://pioneer.jp/press/pdf/ir/080904_dividend-e.pdf
Eliminated all Plasma screen production and outsourced all plasma screen production after March 2009 to Panasonic http://panasonic.co.jp/corp/news/official.data/data.dir/en080424-6/en080424-6.html
Re-deployed 200 Plasma design engineers to other "growth" areas of the business... last 2 slides http://pioneer.jp/corp/ir/library/an...lide_2q09e.pdf
And recently delayed their upcoming Qrtly business results (Oct-Dec 08) until Feb. 12

Their President had the following statement last Fall

Quote:
"... the Company had planned to restore the Home Electronics business to profitability in fiscal 2010 by implementing measures for restructuring the display business and improving profitability in the Home Electronics business as a whole. However, we are currently reviewing our medium-term management targets because their achievement has become extremely difficult in light of intensifying competition and sharply deteriorating business conditions highlighted by falling share prices and other developments worldwide. Pioneer plans to announce its new medium term management targets along with concrete measures by February 2009, after closely examining the year-end shopping season and other market conditions as well as economic developments going forward."

OTOH, Panasonic continues to show positive net income growth while also increasing their dividend every year for the past 5 with a forecast for a higher dividend in 09. Their plasma business is also suffering but they appear to be in a better financial position to survive the WW economic downturn.

Its also worth noting that Pioneer has lost money for its investors for the last 4 years running and is on-track to break all of their loss records with a 5th year loss for fiscal 2009 while LG, Samsung and Panasonic have never reported an annual net income loss during the past 5 years.

Pioneer clearly has a broken business model and either dramatic changes are ahead or they are going to have to sell off the business. The current path is unsustainable. Their stock is down over 80% from a year ago and I can't imagine the Bd of Directors is going to let the losses continue indefinitely. Why is Pioneer unable to make money delivering the best plasma set on the market?

Could there be a major announcement from Pioneer this year regarding their Plasma screen business? What do others think?

From my reading and understanding it will be #1 on your list. Panasonic is opening a brand new glass factory, and Pioneer is transferring over 300 employees (engineers, techs, etc.) from their older factory over to Panasonic's new factory to help run the line and to insure panels are being produced to Pioneer's specs. That is what I recall from reading about it over a year ago.

According to Pioneer's President summary in the Fall of last year, Pioneer will be transferring 200 Plasma design engineers to alternative "growth" areas of the business. 60% of those engineers are to be re-deployed in 2009 and the balance in 2010. They also referenced that as a part of the Panasonic deal they have already "Completed the transfer of some panel engineers to Panasonic Corporation".

slide 23 of the presentation at the link below outlines the re-deployment of the Pioneer Plasma engineers to growth areas of the business.
http://pioneer.jp/corp/ir/library/announcement/fy2009/pdf/slide_2q09e.pdf

IIRC, one of Pioneer's innovations for improving their PDP black levels was a reshaping the plasma cell, somewhat turning it on it's side, in order to reduce the luminescent footprint. This was, to my understanding, unique to Pioneer panels, and lowered the overall "glow" (please correct me if I am misunderstanding or just flat out wrong about this). I realize Pioneer innovates in other forms as well, such as scaling and processing, etc. For this post, I am speaking only of the cells themselves.Here is a list of Pioneer advancements off the top of my head:

Cell technology
1 - deep encased cell structure
2 - CEL - crystal emissive layer
3 - T shaped electrodes
4 - KURO PL-CEL on phosphor
5 - KURO CL-CEL on phosphor

Driving technology
1 - CLEAR driving (single reset only)
2 - KURO (use the address electrode as a cathode)
3 - KURO (use the address electrode to sustain first subfield)
4 - ECC (zero reset write address then erase address)

Anyway, this confirms my admonition that companies like Hitachi and Pioneer are not going to make it.
Who knows anymore, look around. Without the big time bail outs (and companies not lucky enogh to get bail outs)whos to say who has and who has not a strong company ??

they should continue to produce the current Kuro's if they are making a profit anyway, why its set in stone that a new model must come out every year is beyond me.

they only need R&D to develop new tvs

Who knows anymore, look around.

Without the big time bail outs (and companies not lucky enough to get bail outs) who's to say who has and who has not a strong company??

The marketplace, maybe? It seems to have rendered a pretty strong thumbs-down to Pioneer's old business model, especially during this recession, that's a lot of why they have big losses and are having to restructure in order to save themselves. :(

I wish them luck. Ya really do want to see them survive.

The Pioneer Kuro and Elite are the best screens on the market today but consumers simply aren't stepping up to buy them in enough numbers to keep the business going based on Pioneer's latest financials. What's going on? How can the best screens on the market by almost all expert reviews not be making money for it's manufacturer?

Pioneer has had 4 running years of annual income losses, much of their losses caused by its plasma business. page 8 http://pioneer.jp/corp/ir/library/an...fact_2q09e.pdf

Fired their President last Fall http://pioneer.jp/press-e/2008/pdf/1030-3.pdf

Eliminated their stock dividend payout http://pioneer.jp/press/pdf/ir/080904_dividend-e.pdf

Eliminated all Plasma screen production and outsourced all plasma screen production after March 2009 to Panasonic http://panasonic.co.jp/corp/news/off...n080424-6.html

Re-deployed 200 Plasma design engineers to other "growth" areas of the business... last 2 slides http://pioneer.jp/corp/ir/library/an...lide_2q09e.pdf

And recently delayed their upcoming Qrtly business results (Oct-Dec 08) until Feb. 12

Their President had the following statement last Fall

Quote:
"... the Company had planned to restore the Home Electronics business to profitability in fiscal 2010 by implementing measures for restructuring the display business and improving profitability in the Home Electronics business as a whole. However, we are currently reviewing our medium-term management targets because their achievement has become extremely difficult in light of intensifying competition and sharply deteriorating business conditions highlighted by falling share prices and other developments worldwide. Pioneer plans to announce its new medium term management targets along with concrete measures by February 2009, after closely examining the year-end shopping season and other market conditions as well as economic developments going forward."

OTOH, Panasonic continues to show positive net income growth while also increasing their dividend every year for the past 5 with a forecast for a higher dividend in 09. Their plasma business is also suffering but they appear to be in a better financial position to survive the WW economic downturn.

Its also worth noting that Pioneer has lost money for its investors for the last 4 years running and is on-track to break all of their loss records with a 5th year loss for fiscal 2009 while LG, Samsung and Panasonic have never reported an annual net income loss during the past 5 years.

Pioneer clearly has a broken business model and either dramatic changes are ahead or they are going to have to sell off the business. The current path is unsustainable. Their stock is down over 80% from a year ago and I can't imagine the Bd of Directors is going to let the losses continue indefinitely. Why is Pioneer unable to make money delivering the best plasma set on the market?

Could there be a major announcement from Pioneer this year regarding their Plasma screen business? What do others think?


WOW... really excellent post, Heatwave. :cool:

Who knows anymore, look around. Without the big time bail outs (and companies not lucky enogh to get bail outs)whos to say who has and who has not a strong company ??

A company's balance sheet ALWAYS tells the good, bad and ugly story whichever it is? There's no real secret to it. Pioneer's engineers have designed the best of the best but perhaps at a cost that's unmarketable in today's economic climate OR Pioneer management has utterly destroyed this company with a business model that was better suited to a pre-internet marketplace that simply no longer is profitable. Clearly something is deeply wrong when a company with the best product on the market has significant net income losses for 5 years straight.

Either Pioneer will dramatically change the business model or the marketplace will change Pioneer. The current business path cannot be continued.

A company's balance sheet ALWAYS tells the good, bad and ugly story whichever it is? There's no real secret to it. Pioneer's engineers have designed the best of the best but perhaps at a cost that's unmarketable in today's economic climate OR Pioneer management has utterly destroyed this company with a business model that was better suited to a pre-internet marketplace that simply no longer is profitable. Clearly something is deeply wrong when a company with the best product on the market has significant net income losses for 5 years straight.

Either Pioneer will dramatically change the business model or the marketplace will change Pioneer. The current business path cannot be continued.

Its what they call the "Gucci" approach. Its not going to fly in these days and times. AVS enthusiasts and Pioneer advocates are not enough to sustain that company.

You can only play people's emotion and sense pride for so long and eventually their pratical minds are going to take over.

Also, where are the A/V boutique shops? They're pretty much gone, they're a dying breed.

Its what they call the "Gucci" approach. Its not going to fly in these days and times. AVS enthusiasts and Pioneer advocates are not enough to sustain that company.

You can only play people's emotion and sense pride for so long and eventually their pratical minds are going to take over.

Also, where are the A/V boutique shops? They're pretty much gone, they're a dying breed.
Last time I looked Gucci was still in business.

Last time I looked Gucci was still in business.

Just because you're high-end doesn't mean you're completely invulnerable to economic slowdowns, or that you don't have to have a great business model.

For every Gucci there's probably several Jaguars or Land Rovers... companies or divisions of companies that cater to the high-end but can't make it on their own and end up getting sold off or merged. And probably as a company Pio would more closely resemble a car company than a fashion/handbag company, because, like a car company, Pioneer has to deal with huge R&D and manufacturing facility/fab costs that are probably well beyond what a handbag maker has to deal with.

Look at the Pioneer balance sheet numbers Heatwave posted and tell us what you see. It doesn't seem to be very pretty.

And I guess this brings me to another point... would it really be all that bad if Pioneer's plasma TV business and assets, somewhere down the road, ended up being sold off to, say, Panasonic?

Could ppl live with that, or would there be bedlam? :eek:

Its what they call the "Gucci" approach. Its not going to fly in these days and times. AVS enthusiasts and Pioneer advocates are not enough to sustain that company.

You can only play people's emotion and sense pride for so long and eventually their pratical minds are going to take over.

Also, where are the A/V boutique shops? They're pretty much gone, they're a dying breed.It is also possible that Pioneer products are not unfairly priced, but that their engineering, innovations and manufacturing processes add up to a costlier product. They need to maintain their margins, because let's face it, they're not in business to give their products away. I do not know this to be a fact, I only offer it as a possibility.

The fact that their products cost more than you wish to pay does not necessarily convict them of being the arrogant, evil entity that you insist they are, nor does their current fiscal dilemma in a global recession mean that you know this market better than Pioneer. You don't want to pony up for a Kuro, fine, that's your choice to make. But to think that you understand the demographics and the market forces at play better than Pioneer does only makes you sound more arrogant than what you try to make them out to be.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j8oESbSuDCWUFng-sBxy8z2wYBCQD95VUQ080


Citing no sources, Japan's top business daily, the Nikkei, said Wednesday Panasonic may incur a net loss of about 100 billion yen ($1.1 billion) in the fiscal year ending March 2009. It would mark the first net loss in six years for Panasonic.

Panasonic net profit last year was $2.7 billion for comparison.

Thats almost a $4 billion dollar swing.:eek:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j8oESbSuDCWUFng-sBxy8z2wYBCQD95VUQ080

Panasonic net profit last year was $2.7 billion for comparison.

Thats almost a $4 billion dollar swing.:eek:


That's true, but as the article also says, it's Panny's first annual loss in six years.

Compare that to Pioneer, who's lost money four out of the past four years (and 2009 will almost certainly make it five for five). :(

I think you might have to distinguish between companies who are basically healthy but are going to take some lumps during the current severe recession (even Samsung, who's doing really well, posted a loss recently), and companies that were kinda broken or only doing so-so even before the recession hit.

Panasonic clearly isn't in the same situation as Pioneer but I think you might be missing the point.
The industry as a whole is in a mess.This revelation should only deepen the concern for those at the opposite end of the market share spectrum.

Panasonic clearly isn't in the same situation as Pioneer but I think you might be missing the point.

The industry as a whole is in a mess. This revelation should only deepen the concern for those at the opposite end of the market share spectrum.

No, I think we're saying sort of the same thing, just in different ways.

The "whole industry" isn't really in a mess aside from the temporary fact of the severe recession. That recession will weaken or eliminate the companies that don't have good business models and/or aren't run well. Leaving more room and future growth/profit potential for the stronger companies, who will absorb some of the weaker ones.

Hey, it's just how the capitalism game is played. :D

The fact that their products cost more than you wish to pay does not necessarily convict them of being the arrogant, evil entity that you insist they are, nor does their current fiscal dilemma in a global recession mean that you know this market better than Pioneer. You don't want to pony up for a Kuro, fine, that's your choice to make. But to think that you understand the demographics and the market forces at play better than Pioneer does only makes you sound more arrogant than what you try to make them out to be.

I think you're missing the point. To be honest, I suspect the enthusiasts on this forum would probably buy a 151 in many cases even when they really can't afford it. The point is that there are not enough consumers that take that approach in buying a TV to make Pioneer a profit. Its really as simple as that. What it costs to make any product is really rather irrelevant. What matters is what the market will bear when its purchased.

Home buyers could care less what a home owner paid for their house. What they care about is the price of similar homes in the neighborhood. The cost to build the house doesn't matter and neither does the cost of the previous owner. What matters when there are more sellers than there are buyers (which is very analgous to the current flat panel TV market), is what the price is of the other houses in the neighborhood.

Pioneer's balance sheet is screaming that they are pricing themselves out of a business. They either lower their costs, develop a far superior product to the rest of the neighborhood (the market will decide the definition of "far superior" not AVS enthusiasts or Pioneer marketers or Pioneer engineers) OR they face extinction. Happens all the time in business. Has nothing to do with evil or arrogant...just simply business.

I think you're missing the point. To be honest, I suspect the enthusiasts on this forum would probably buy a 151 in many cases even when they really can't afford it. The point is that there are not enough consumers that take that approach in buying a TV to make Pioneer a profit. Its really as simple as that. What it costs to make any product is really rather irrelevant. What matters is what the market will bear when its purchased.

Home buyers could care less what a home owner paid for their house. What they care about is the price of similar homes in the neighborhood. The cost to build the house doesn't matter and neither does the cost of the previous owner. What matters when there are more sellers than there are buyers (which is very analgous to the current flat panel TV market), is what the price is of the other houses in the neighborhood.

Pioneer's balance sheet is screaming that they are pricing themselves out of a business. They either lower their costs, develop a far superior product to the rest of the neighborhood (the market will decide the definition of "far superior" not AVS enthusiasts or Pioneer marketers or Pioneer engineers) OR they face extinction. Happens all the time in business. Has nothing to do with evil or arrogant...just simply business.
I agree that when the dust settles, market forces will dictate Pioneer's place within it, rather than vice versa. I was addressing Auditor's irrational vendetta with Pioneer, and his insistence that he understands the market better than they do, both of which I find ludicrous.

I'm sure that some of the electronics manufactures will merge. There are many reasons to do so in the current economic climate. Sony could combine with Microsoft and sell the Playstation 360.

I'm sure that some of the electronics manufactures will merge. There are many reasons to do so in the current economic climate. Sony could combine with Microsoft and sell the Playstation 360.


Or the Xbox 2

It is also possible that Pioneer products are not unfairly priced, but that their engineering, innovations and manufacturing processes add up to a costlier product. They need to maintain their margins, because let's face it, they're not in business to give their products away. I do not know this to be a fact, I only offer it as a possibility.

The fact that their products cost more than you wish to pay does not necessarily convict them of being the arrogant, evil entity that you insist they are, nor does their current fiscal dilemma in a global recession mean that you know this market better than Pioneer. You don't want to pony up for a Kuro, fine, that's your choice to make. But to think that you understand the demographics and the market forces at play better than Pioneer does only makes you sound more arrogant than what you try to make them out to be.

I can understand your passion for a top flight plasma like Pioneer Kuro and any defense of it.

But what I don't understand is your defense of the company "Pioneer" and their business and marketing practices.

Let me be blunt. I don't think the CEO of Pioneer cares anything about you or me. His job is probably to milk us for every cent we have. They don't care about you, they only care about getting as much out of us to go into their coffers.

I challenge Pioneer, ala the car industry, to publish invoice prices or dealer cost on their flat panel, Elites and non-elites.

I really would like to see you much those displays are marked up.

As for Gucci, we know they're fleecing the people. Their stuff is probably marked up at least 500%.

I can understand your passion for a top flight plasma like Pioneer Kuro and any defense of it.

But what I don't understand is your defense of the company "Pioneer" and their business and marketing practices.

Let me be blunt. I don't think the CEO of Pioneer cares anything about you are me. His job is probably to milk us for every cent we have. They don't care about you, they only care about getting as much out of us to go into their coffers.

I challenge Pioneer, ala the car industry, to publish invoice prices or dealer cost on their flat panel, Elites and non-elites.

I really would like to see you much those displays are marked up.

As for Gucci, we know they're fleecing the people. Their stuff is probably marked up at least 500%.

What the cost of making a Pioneer plasma is quite irrelevant to its MSRP.

Pioneer, rightly so according to most experts, makes is a superior product which people are willing to pay a premium for.

The CEO is only responsible to the shareholders at Pioneer.

Low volume, high margin products, like Gucci fill a niche in the market.

Your only concern should be if that premium is worth the price, or not, to you, not to anyone else.

A product is worth what someone is willing to pay for it and not what your opinion of its value.

Pioneer panels sit on shelves next to all the other manuf. in all the usual big box stores. Including Costso. Not so niche high-end IMO.




Huh? Never carried at Circuit City, only BB's with a Magnolia carried them up until this year at least(may be different this year) and Tweeter only carried the Elites.
Sounds as niche as niche can be. :)


Auditor...do you never grow tired of your own act? You engage in anti-pioneer posting EVERYDAY, lol.

I can understand your passion for a top flight plasma like Pioneer Kuro and any defense of it.

But what I don't understand is your defense of the company "Pioneer" and their business and marketing practices.

Let me be blunt. I don't think the CEO of Pioneer cares anything about you are me. His job is probably to milk us for every cent we have. They don't care about you, they only care about getting as much out of us to go into their coffers.

I challenge Pioneer, ala the car industry, to publish invoice prices or dealer cost on their flat panel, Elites and non-elites.

I really would like to see you much those displays are marked up.

As for Gucci, we know they're fleecing the people. Their stuff is probably marked up at least 500%.I'm not sure if you missed the point or simply chose to ignore it. I am neither a Pioneer apologist nor a defender. While I own one a Kuro, I like other displays a great deal also, including some LCDs.

You are the one that takes Pioneer's policies and strategies so personally, trying to convince this forum that they don't comprehend the market, price their products, or form marketing decisions to your satisfaction. Sorry, but I think you sound silly when you behave this way.

I agree that Pioneer doesn't care about you or me. Neither does Panasonic. Nor Samsung. Or [your company here]. So what? All I want from them is to provide high quality displays. Btw, Gucci's marketing practices are irrelevant to this thread. But if helps you feel better, feel free to log in to a Gucci forum, climb up on your soapbox, and have at it convincing them what a crappy company Pioneer is.

I challenge Pioneer, ala the car industry, to publish invoice prices or dealer cost on their flat panel, Elites and non-elites.


If you think those "invoice" prices that you can find all over for cars or that the dealer may even show you, are actually the true dealer cost on a car. Then you are someone that is easily fooled! The car industry leaves out a lot of information on how the actual dealer cost ends up being lower than what those "dealer cost" invoices show them to be.

Pioneer's current share price is 177 yen(about $2.00us) down from 3000 yen ($34 us) 5 years ago, quite apparent things are going in the wrong direction. Sharp happens to be their largest current shareholder with 15% so who knows what may happen going forward. Sharp KURO????

However one feels about Pioneer (I like them, personally), it's obvious that what they've been doing is not working, and that they need to change in order for their TV operations to survive as part of Pioneer. Hence, the restructuring.

Again I ask though, would it really be so bad if, a few years down the road, Pio sold their TV assets to Panasonic or Sharp? :confused:

One would assume that, Panny at least, could run with that particular ball.

However one feels about Pioneer (I like them, personally), it's obvious that what they've been doing is not working, and that they need to change in order for their TV operations to survive as part of Pioneer. Hence, the restructuring.

Again I ask though, would it really be so bad if, a few years down the road, Pio sold their TV assets to Panasonic or Sharp? :confused:

One would assume that, Panny at least, could run with that particular ball.

Let's assume that Panasonic buys Pioneer and all their technology.

They won't kill the Pioneer name because it has value. So where do you position Pioneer sets with their Panasonic.

Pioneer as an elite brand, only producing maybe a top tier set? And then position Panasonic sets below that?

Wouldn't you be concerned about 'discounting' the Panasonic brand name by following this?

Or keep the brands separate, competing in the same high-end market share?

Unless the value of Pioneer drops significantly, I don't see Panasonic benefiting from acquiring Pioneer. They have technology that competes with Pioneer at the high end (or very close) and they compete through the product ranges. Buying the name doesn't significantly help Panasonic, IMO.

What the cost of making a Pioneer plasma is quite irrelevant to its MSRP.

Pioneer, rightly so according to most experts, makes is a superior product which people are willing to pay a premium for.

The CEO is only responsible to the shareholders at Pioneer.

Low volume, high margin products, like Gucci fill a niche in the market.

Your only concern should be if that premium is worth the price, or not, to you, not to anyone else.

A product is worth what someone is willing to pay for it and not what your opinion of its value.

I really don't care if Pioneer makes a 1000% margin or a 10% margin. In the end all that matters is does the ulitmate price to the consumer meet market demand such that the company makes a profit. Otherwise the product is overpriced for the value it delivers. Even though the Pioneer's are the best products on the market in terms of engineering, the marketplace has determined they are a poor value.

That's why Pioneer is loosing money on each one they sell. They simply aren't reflective of what the market wants for the price they are selling them for. Either they must lower the cost so they can maintain the current pricing to make a profit, incorporate a "gotta" have technology so they can charge more while generating higher demand, change their business model if its limiting their ability to sell in greater numbers in order to capitalize costs across more units or get out of the business. Those really are the options open to Pioneer management.

The current path is a non-starter after 5 years of losses and I'm confident their management gets that after the firing of the President last Fall.

Huh? Never carried at Circuit City, only BB's with a Magnolia carried them up until this year at least(may be different this year) and Tweeter only carried the Elites.
Sounds as niche as niche can be. :)


I shouldn't have said "in all the usual big box stores" as obviously they all don't carry Pioneer.
In response to what cajiboy stated.......
The article makes a huge mistake in these comparisons, especially when comparing pricing between Pioneer & Panasonic. Pioneer is not marketing to the average consumer, but rather a niche high-end market.
.................my point stands.They absolutely are marketing to the average consumer.

Circuit city sold Pioneer until the xx60 IIRC, not that it matters now.
Every BB I have been in (east coast) has for many years stocked Pioneer along side all the other brands even before they built the mini-mags into existing BB stores.
Costco consistently
Sams occasionally
Tweeter?Clearly a failed business model but not big box anyway.
Add the web:
newegg
onecall
aom
abt
amazon
vanns
buy.com
6thave
all perhaps not "big box" but they all work against this niche idea.

The niche argument holds up better with the elite panels as they are much more protected but when you can walk into a BB/mag and find returned, discounted Pioneer panels pushed off to the side or stale stock (pro-110) elite panels stacked and discounted at the store entrance.Again IMO not what defines a high-end niche product.

Let's assume that Panasonic buys Pioneer and all their technology.

They won't kill the Pioneer name because it has value. So where do you position Pioneer sets with their Panasonic.

Pioneer as an elite brand, only producing maybe a top tier set? And then position Panasonic sets below that?

Wouldn't you be concerned about 'discounting' the Panasonic brand name by following this?

Or keep the brands separate, competing in the same high-end market share?

Unless the value of Pioneer drops significantly, I don't see Panasonic benefiting from acquiring Pioneer. They have technology that competes with Pioneer at the high end (or very close) and they compete through the product ranges.

Buying the name doesn't significantly help Panasonic, IMO.


Very thoughtful post, jcon. And I agree that, if Panasonic bought Pioneer, 'cannibalization' of existing high-end Panny sales would be a problem, since, as you say, Panny would likely keep the Pioneer brand around, and sell sets under that name.

That said though, I think it's fine. If Panny buys Pio, they're not really going to care much if they're making money under the Panny name or the Pio name, since they'll be making the money either way.

Another way to look at it is that the high-end TV market is as a finite pie. Panny has a certain slice of it, so does Pioneer. Why wouldn't Panny want to have Pio's slice too? Yes, you could argue that both slices would merely shrink due to sales cannibalization, but think more broadly for a second:

Pioneer's technology would help improve Panny's sets, while Panny's lower cost of manufacturing and economies of sale would help make the new Pioneer brand more cost-competitive. Ppl who think that Pio's prices don't matter aren't considering the current worldwide economic situation, or the upcoming wave of high-end LED-backlit 240+ Hz LCDs.

Well-executed, a combined Panny-Pio could be a great win-win, and a competitive advantage against Sony, Samsung, et al. Remember, the high-end TV market isn't just plasmas, though some here think it is 'cuz they're videophiles and are dead-set on plasma. But that's not the high-end as a whole. Sets like the Sammy 950 and Sony XBRs already play in that market, with more to come. Why wouldn't you want a competitive advantage against that? And if any of the Pioneer technology can trickle down to help out Panny in the midrange, that's pure gravy.

Far as Panasonic's own brand-name being hurt, I think that's overstated. When I think Panasonic, I think good midrange sets, I don't really think high-end. Panny doesn't even offer that many super high-end sets as it is. It'll be fine if Panasonic is the brand name for the midrange sets, and Pioneer is the brand for the high-end sets for a combined company.

Or the Xbox 2

or the Ex Box 3 (60)

:D

Very thoughtful post, jcon. And I agree that, if Panasonic bought Pioneer, 'cannibalization' of existing high-end Panny sales would be a problem, since, as you say, Panny would likely keep the Pioneer brand around, and sell sets under that name.

That said though, I think it's fine. If Panny buys Pio, they're not really going to care much if they're making money under the Panny name or the Pio name, since they'll be making the money either way.

Another way to look at it is that the high-end TV market is as a finite pie. Panny has a certain slice of it, so does Pioneer. Why wouldn't Panny want to have Pio's slice too? Yes, you could argue that both slices would merely shrink due to sales cannibalization, but think more broadly for a second:

Pioneer's technology would help improve Panny's sets, while Panny's lower cost of manufacturing and economies of sale would help make the new Pioneer brand more cost-competitive. Ppl who think that Pio's prices don't matter aren't considering the current worldwide economic situation, or the upcoming wave of high-end LED-backlit 240+ Hz LCDs.

Well-executed, a combined Panny-Pio could be a great win-win, and a competitive advantage against Sony, Samsung, et al. Remember, the high-end TV market isn't just plasmas, though some here think it is 'cuz they're videophiles and are dead-set on plasma. But that's not the high-end as a whole. Sets like the Sammy 950 and Sony XBRs already play in that market, with more to come. Why wouldn't you want a competitive advantage against that? And if any of the Pioneer technology can trickle down to help out Panny in the midrange, that's pure gravy.

Far as Panasonic's own brand-name being hurt, I think that's overstated. When I think Panasonic, I think good midrange sets, I don't really think high-end. Panny doesn't even offer that many super high-end sets as it is. It'll be fine if Panasonic is the brand name for the midrange sets, and Pioneer is the brand for the high-end sets for a combined company.
If a company buys Pioneer, it'll be Sharp, not Panasonic.

The Plasma business for both of them is small cookies compared to the overall turnover of both companies, so buying a failing company for the sake of a few Plasma patents makes no sense. Also, I imagine Panasonic learnt their lession when it comes to buying companies who bleed red ink after about a decade of owning JVC.

Earnings:

Samsung Q4 (http://www.displaybank.com/down_file/IR_4Q08/SAMSUNG_4Q08_Earnings.pdf)

Samsung SDI Q4 (http://www.samsungsdi.com/data/irpdf/pt/2008_4Q_IR_Final_E.pdf)

LG Electronics Q4 (http://www.displaybank.com/down_file/IR_4Q08/LGE_4Q08_Earnings.pdf)

LG Display Q4 (http://www.displaybank.com/down_file/IR_4Q08/LGDisplay_4Q08_Earnings.pdf)

AU Optonics Q4 (http://www.displaybank.com/down_file/IR_4Q08/AUO_4Q08_Earnings.pdf)

Sony Q3 (http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/08q3_sonypre.pdf)

Toshiba Q3 (http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/ir/en/library/pr/pdf/tpr2008q3e.pdf)

Enjoy:D

An interesting article:

http://displaydaily.com/2009/01/29/looking-for-good-news/


And another that had been posted in the past about Pioneer but still resonates today:

http://displaydaily.com/2007/09/27/pioneer-finds-a-life-preserver-%e2%80%93-but-do-they-know-how-to-use-it/

What the cost of making a Pioneer plasma is quite irrelevant to its MSRP.

I'm not talking about how much it cost Pioneer to make them, but how much dealer cost is. I want to know how much their sets are marked up.

Pioneer, rightly so according to most experts, makes is a superior product which people are willing to pay a premium for.

"Superior" is subjective, I want know actual factual numbers.

The CEO is only responsible to the shareholders at Pioneer.

Once again, he doesn't care about you or me, he's just worried about profits. He's nothing more than a "fat cat" out get dollars.

Low volume, high margin products, like Gucci fill a niche in the market.

Yep, and that's my point. Like Nike, Gucci products are marked up through the roof and we know who makes their products.

Your only concern should be if that premium is worth the price, or not, to you, not to anyone else.

In my opinion, no. The days of overpriced displays been over, unless that display is introducing a new revolutionary technology.


A product is worth what someone is willing to pay for it and not what your opinion of its value.

Tell that to Fujutsi, they thought the same.

Earnings:

Samsung Q4 (http://www.displaybank.com/down_file/IR_4Q08/SAMSUNG_4Q08_Earnings.pdf)

Samsung SDI Q4 (http://www.samsungsdi.com/data/irpdf/pt/2008_4Q_IR_Final_E.pdf)

LG Electronics Q4 (http://www.displaybank.com/down_file/IR_4Q08/LGE_4Q08_Earnings.pdf)

LG Display Q4 (http://www.displaybank.com/down_file/IR_4Q08/LGDisplay_4Q08_Earnings.pdf)

AU Optonics Q4 (http://www.displaybank.com/down_file/IR_4Q08/AUO_4Q08_Earnings.pdf)

Sony Q3 (http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/08q3_sonypre.pdf)

Toshiba Q3 (http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/ir/en/library/pr/pdf/tpr2008q3e.pdf)

Enjoy:D

Any info on Pioneer?

If you think those "invoice" prices that you can find all over for cars or that the dealer may even show you, are actually the true dealer cost on a car. Then you are someone that is easily fooled! The car industry leaves out a lot of information on how the actual dealer cost ends up being lower than what those "dealer cost" invoices show them to be.

No I'm not fooled. I think invoice prices gives you something to work with. Unlike a 7k plasma TV. Its possbile that dealer cost my be $2300 on an Elite 151. If I knew the dealer cost ,I could offer $500 over and the dealer would still make a profit.

I just have a belief that a TV like Elite 151 is marked up at 200-300% which is a bad investment for most.

No I'm not fooled. I think invoice prices gives you something to work with. Unlike a 7k plasma TV. Its possbile that dealer cost my be $2300 on an Elite 151. If I knew the dealer cost ,I could offer $500 over and the dealer would still make a profit.

I just have a belief that a TV like Elite 151 is marked up at 200-300% which is a bad investment for most.

Invoice = MSRP. MSRP can be found on the Pioneer website. Your logic is flawed.

And again, why does it matter what it costs Pioneer to make the set, and how much it costs for a dealer to purchase it?

Invoice = MSRP. MSRP can be found on the Pioneer website. Your logic is flawed.

And again, why does it matter what it costs Pioneer to make the set, and how much it costs for a dealer to purchase it?

No sir it does not. I'm talking about the invoice price to the dealers.

Invoice = MSRP. MSRP can be found on the Pioneer website. Your logic is flawed...

I'm not sure if you really meant this as it's stated but this is most definitely incorrect. On large items like big screen TVs there's typically a very large markup. Years ago HH Gregg used to something on their price tags like "HH00160000GG" to help out sales people when haggling as they'd know that the markup on the TV was $1600. They wised up and since removed this. But still, I agree with Auditor. It'd be nice to know (especially dealing with places like BB).

Any info on Pioneer?

Pioneer will publish their earnings on February 12, 2009.

No sir it does not. I'm talking about the invoice price to the dealers.

The invoice price to dealers is a moving target in most industries. They are generally reflected in a discounting system based on the MSRP. For ease of math, assume a "standard" discount of 50%. The dealer might negotiate 50%+5% for a larger order, then haggle for "freight included"....

Then, like in the car industry, there are holdbacks and annual rebates based on volume. The manufacturer controls the lowest advertised pricing as well. This protects their pricing strategy. There are also shelf space incentives, where the manufacturer pays for prime shelf space placement, or additional shelf space to introduce a new model.

In the end, if the store is not factory owned, the retailer has the freedom to sell the set at what ever price they want. This right has been upheld in court, but they must not advertise prices lower than the manufacturer states.

Retailers are looking for an average mark-up as it relates to "Contribution to margin" rather than on a "percentage mark-up". This figure multiplied by volume is what matters. Pioneer obviously has a higher manufacturing cost, as they (and retailers) would lower their prices to increase volume otherwise.

My point is that Pioneer is not gouging consumers by excessive mark ups. They are simply missing the price point/quality relationship as it affects number of units sold.

Finally, by tracking the lowest price during the year that the consumer pays, you can get a good handle on the average dealer cost.

No sir it does not. I'm talking about the invoice price to the dealers.

You think companies should disclose the invoice price they sell to dealers to the consumer? :p

What business are you in?:rolleyes:

I just have a belief that a TV like Elite 151 is marked up at 200-300% which is a bad investment for most.


LOL, while I certainly do not know what the mark-up is on the 151 I know there is not way in hell it is anywhere even remotely near 200-300% , maybe 100% but I doubt it is higher than that.

If a company buys Pioneer, it'll be Sharp, not Panasonic.

Obviously that's on the table as well, as Sharp is a significant stockholder in Pioneer.

However, if someone were to buy the TV assets of Pioneer, plenty of ppl would prefer it be Panasonic, since unlike Sharp, they seem quite committed to plasma technology. It seems a more natural 'fit' in that way. Panny can certainly afford to do so.

And Panasonic and Pioneer already have some partnership agreements in place, with Pioneer agreeing to use Panny glass and Panny apparently getting a bit of Pio's technical know-how in exchange.


The Plasma business for both of them is small cookies compared to the overall turnover of both companies, so buying a failing company for the sake of a few Plasma patents makes no sense.

What if Pioneer's TV assets are going for relatively cheap? 2009 should be yet another loss year for Pio's TV division, which would make five years running, so at some point you almost kinda have to assume a fire sale as a likelihood.
.

, which would make five years running, so at some point you almost kinda have to assume a fire sale as a likelihood.
.


Is that right? WOW, being a Pioneer Kuro owner, after owning a >$2K Sony LCD I just don't get it!

What in the heck is going on here? Pioneer makes the best displays ....ummm ,PERIOD!

^ Ok, perhaps I'm being overly pessimistic here. But it just seems like, when you see a company or a division of company enter something that looks like a slow death-spiral, they seldomly pull out of it without being sold-off or merged.

Apple is about the only one that comes to mind. :(

As Warren Buffett once said: "Turnarounds seldom turn."

Then, like in the car industry, there are holdbacks and annual rebates based on volume.

That sometimes is a good reason to bid for car slightly under invoice because you know about holdbacks they don't tell you about.

You think companies should disclose the invoice price they sell to dealers to the consumer? :p

What business are you in?:rolleyes:

Yes, in these days and times.

LOL, while I certainly do not know what the mark-up is on the 151 I know there is not way in hell it is anywhere even remotely near 200-300% , maybe 100% but I doubt it is higher than that.

I don't know how much the Elite panels are marked up, but based upon Pioneers own marketing approach, as it has been called, the "Gucci" approach, I can only assume that its somewhere between 200-300% since there's a good chance that Gucci products are marked at least 500%.

I don't know how much the Elite panels are marked up, but based upon Pioneers own marketing approach, as it has been called, the "Gucci" approach, I can only assume that its somewhere between 200-300% since there's a good chance that Gucci products are marked at least 500%.

That seems extreme. If Pio's markups were really that high, that'd be an open invitation for someone to come in and offer similar picture quality or close for far less $$$. That hasn't really happened. Some would argue that the Sammy 950 or XBR8 are as good, but those aren't 'far cheaper' products, especially in the case of the XBR8.

I'd also think that the Gucci comparison is flawed, since the HDTV business requires such high capital outlays compared to the handbag business. Fashion seems like a biz where if you have the 'name' it's easy to mark something up ridiculously, because a brand in fashion takes a long time to establish and confers a great deal of (perceived) status to the buyer.

You can't come out of nowhere and be the creme de la creme of handbags, suits, or anything else in fashion... ppl will laugh at you because you're not Gucci or Louis Vuitton or Versace. But if Pio were to mark-up TVs as high as you say they do, their throats would be cut almost overnight by their competitors.

Just my take on it.

That seems extreme. If Pio's markups were really that high, that'd be an open invitation for someone to come in and offer similar picture quality or close for far less $$$. That hasn't really happened. Some would argue that the Sammy 950 or XBR8 are as good, but those aren't 'far cheaper' products, especially in the case of the XBR8.

The fact of the matter is, we don't know. Until we have some hard numbers we're only speculating. That is why I would like to know their dealer cost, straight up.

I'd also think that the Gucci comparison is flawed, since the HDTV business requires such high capital outlays compared to the handbag business. Fashion seems like a biz where if you have the 'name' it's easy to mark something up ridiculously, because a brand in fashion takes a long time to establish and confers a great deal of (perceived) status to the buyer.

I did not come up with the "Gucci" approach, that's from Pioneer. Also, Pioneer has the same "brand" fashion thingy going for their displays.

You can't come out of nowhere and be the creme de la creme of handbags, suits, or anything else in fashion... ppl will laugh at you because you're not Gucci or Louis Vuitton or Versace. But if Pio were to mark-up TVs as high as you say they do, their throats would be cut almost overnight by their competitors.

I don't think anyone knows. If you don't know their market up, you can't cut their throats. I believe its high because, may be to do to a slip of the tongue on Pioneer's part" they compared themselves to Gucci.

[QUOTE=SystemShock2;15696036]That seems extreme. If Pio's markups were really that high, that'd be an open invitation for someone to come in and offer similar picture quality or close for far less $$$.

Isnt that what panasonic is doing?

I'm not sure if you really meant this as it's stated but this is most definitely incorrect. On large items like big screen TVs there's typically a very large markup. Years ago HH Gregg used to something on their price tags like "HH00160000GG" to help out sales people when haggling as they'd know that the markup on the TV was $1600. They wised up and since removed this. But still, I agree with Auditor. It'd be nice to know (especially dealing with places like BB).

I meant invoice price as sticker price. Perhaps my terminology is incorrect.

Of course we would all love to know all pricing and when the rebates come around, but it's simply not possible. Even if they did show it to us, what difference would it make? A company has to consider a variety of costs in order price effectively, and really, the market will dictate the price.

Now, can anyone show evidence that the contribution margin on the Pioneer plasmas is significantly higher than that of Samsung or Panasonic? What costing system do they use?

That seems extreme. If Pio's markups were really that high, that'd be an open invitation for someone to come in and offer similar picture quality or close for far less $$$.

Isnt that what panasonic is doing?

Depends on who you listen to.

Some say Panny displays don't compare to Pio in pic quality.

Others says Panny comes reasonably close for cheaper.

One thing's for sure: Panny is doing better than Pio right now, whatever the reason.

The fact of the matter is, we don't know. Until we have some hard numbers we're only speculating. That is why I would like to know their dealer cost, straight up.

That's fair. So let's throw the Q out to any dealers or high-level employees who might be reading: What's the ballpark mark-up on high-end displays?

You don't have to name any one company by name. No one wants anyone to get in trouble. ;)


Also, Pioneer has the same "brand" fashion thingy going for their displays.

Not to anywhere near the same extent as the fashion industry.

In fashion, it really matters if someone is wearing Vera Wang or Armani vs Wal-Mart off-the-rack clothing.

In video, doesn't really matter all that much if your TV says Pioneer, Samsung, or LG on it, so long as the image quality kicks ass. I'm not saying there aren't TV snobs, but they are few in number.


I don't think anyone knows. If you don't know their market up, you can't cut their throats. I believe its high because, may be to do to a slip of the tongue on Pioneer's part" they compared themselves to Gucci.

Well, hopefully someone coughs up some numbers, and then we can all stop speculating.

In video, doesn't really matter all that much if your TV says Pioneer, Samsung, or LG on it, so long as the image quality kicks ass. I'm not saying there aren't TV snobs, but they are few in number.

I think you're underestimating the power of branding. As a former TV salesperson, 6 years removed, A LOT of people buy simply on the name, or for the cache that comes with certain brands (perceived or real).

Sony for one, has a loyal, albeit dwindling, following that buy simply on the name.

"Show me the Sony" is all they would say and I did.

In the end, the Pioneer pricing matters little, since we have competing alternatives that offer a similar performance for a lower price.

Panasonic is what, 1 to 2 years behind? Maybe less. And Samsung is making larger leaps forward, at this present time, than Pioneer (year-over-year comparisons).

I think you're underestimating the power of branding. As a former TV salesperson, 6 years removed, A LOT of people buy simply on the name, or for the cache that comes with certain brands (perceived or real).

Sony for one, has a loyal, albeit dwindling, following that buy simply on the name.

"Show me the Sony" is all they would say and I did.

I'm not saying there isn't such a thing as 'brand loyalty'. There definitely is, and Sony would indeed be a good example.

What I'm saying is that 'status' or 'cachet', as given by a TV brand, doesn't count for much. You get a little bit of status for owning a Pioneer as opposed to a Sony or Samsung, but not all that much (though I'm sure some Pio owners would beg to disagree, whatever status you do get is mostly confined to TV snobs).

So, I don't think we're really talking about the same thing here. We were comparing to fashion, and in fashion, certain brand names do indeed confer status. In TVs, not so much.

I mean, you can be brand loyal to Vizio, 'cuz you like the price and the last one you had was reliable. Doesn't mean you're expecting to get status from buying one. Probably even most Sony buyers are not expecting to get status from their purchase, they just think it's good stuff.

The distinction matters, because the kind of mark-ups you can ask for with a particular brand are quite a bit higher for 'good stuff' + status as opposed to 'good stuff' alone.

Hmm. Maybe that's part of Pioneer's problem. Perhaps they should be trying harder to make themselves more of a 'status' brand, in broader terms, i.e. beyond just the TV snob crowd. Apple's done it very successfully in electronics, so it's certainly not impossible.

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I'm not saying there isn't such a thing as 'brand loyalty'. There definitely is, and Sony would indeed be a good example.

What I'm saying is that 'status' or 'cachet', as given by a TV brand, doesn't count for much. You get a little bit of status for owning a Pioneer as opposed to a Sony or Samsung, but not all that much (though I'm sure some Pio owners would beg to disagree, whatever status you do get is mostly confined to TV snobs).

So, I don't think we're really talking about the same thing here. We were comparing to fashion, and in fashion, certain brand names do indeed confer status. In TVs, not so much.

I mean, you can be brand loyal to Vizio, 'cuz you like the price and the last one you had was reliable. Doesn't mean you're expecting to get status from buying one. Probably even most Sony buyers are not expecting to get status from their purchase, they just think it's good stuff.

Okay, I agree with that.

The value in fashion is in it's exclusivity, which is somewhat true with Pioneer, but not on a highly visible level.

They could lower their prices, but may not get improved sales to make up for the loss. And in any case, Panasonic would follow suit and Samsung, thus eliminating the price parity. In the end, all companies would make far less off each set, which may help short-term sales targets, but hinder long-term profit targets and product feasibility.

Pioneer's branding isn't the issue. I think most folks would agree, even with basic consumers, its brand is well regarded. Unfortunately it has still overpriced its products or not communicated the value of its 5 plasma models well enough to make a profit. In fact, their plasma business is an abject failure from a business perspective after 5 consecutive years of net losses.

The only way better marketing and branding would help is to position their products with an even higher price than they already have to avoid a loss on every single unit they sell. We can all guess how well that would work in this economy.

The other alternative is to change their business model to a much more volume based business approach that would allow them to capitalize their fixed costs across many more units sold. This approach would mean far lower prices, elimination of their dealer network and elevate their mass media volume targets. This is a possibility however it would certainly diminish their brand image and possibly have an impact on their other product lines. I'm also sure their exclusive dealer network would have a serious problem with this approach.

Lastly is to sell off the Plasma business and focus on their profitable and larger car audio business. A possibility.

Or merge the entire business with a stronger better capitalized company. Since Sharp is a 15% equity holder of Pioneer, they are certainly a candidate to take them over. I could see Sharp buying Pioneer and selling off the Plasma business to Panasonic to fund the acquisition. Sharp would dump the money-losing Plasma business given Sharp's lack of Plasma business knowledge and Panny's focus in that area.

All just speculation but my suspicion is that decisions are in the works and will be executed sooner rather than later given the world economic decline. History says Pioneer can't make money on their Plasma business in a good economy therefore they will only lose dramatically more in a cratered economy.

Depends on who you listen to.

Some say Panny displays don't compare to Pio in pic quality.

Others says Panny comes reasonably close for cheaper.

One thing's for sure: Panny is doing better than Pio right now, whatever the reason.

I would give Pioneer the edge. The black level difference is noticeable and that's why you have lean to the Pioneer.

People accuse me of bashing Pioneer, I don't bash the displays. They make the fantastic displays, always have. That even goes back when they made RPTV's. However, I do have some disdain for Pioneer as a company.

Auditor55: If Pioneer brought SED back from the dead would you bow down and worship them?

Auditor55: If Pioneer brought SED back from the dead would you bow down and worship them?

I would be their most enthusiastic champion, hail Pioneer:D

Yes, in these days and times.

Unbelievable. :eek:

You expect every manufacturer, distributor and reseller to disclose their costs to consumers, or is it just Pioneer for some odd reason? :rolleyes:

And what difference does it make as to what day and time it is? I also noticed you didn't mention what business you're in. ;)

I would be their most enthusiastic champion, hail Pioneer:D

I have bad news for you auditor. The chances of SED ever making it to market as a home theater type consumer panel is slim to none and none is slowly starting to pass slim by. :)

I can understand your passion for a top flight plasma like Pioneer Kuro and any defense of it.

But what I don't understand is your defense of the company "Pioneer" and their business and marketing practices.

Let me be blunt. I don't think the CEO of Pioneer cares anything about you or me. His job is probably to milk us for every cent we have. They don't care about you, they only care about getting as much out of us to go into their coffers.

I challenge Pioneer, ala the car industry, to publish invoice prices or dealer cost on their flat panel, Elites and non-elites.

I really would like to see you much those displays are marked up.

As for Gucci, we know they're fleecing the people. Their stuff is probably marked up at least 500%.

Why do you care so much about what Pioneer does? It does seem like you have a hidden agenda in crying, the sky is falling, the sky is falling. Please share with us the reason.

All of the manufacturers of luxury products will have negative balance sheets for probably the next two quarters. Our country is in bad shape.

As far as challenging Pioneer to publish invoice prices or dealer cost because you want it is ridiculous. By the way those prices really don't mean anything as there are kickbacks, floor planning, free financing, advertising support, etc.

I have bad news for you auditor. The chances of SED ever making it to market as a home theater type consumer panel is slim to none and none is slowly starting to pass slim by. :)

You love reminding me of that.:D

Maybe I should shut up and be happy with the KURO as the best display technology for the rest of eternity:(

Why do you care so much about what Pioneer does? It does seem like you have a hidden agenda in crying, the sky is falling, the sky is falling. Please share with us the reason.

All of the manufacturers of luxury products will have negative balance sheets for probably the next two quarters. Our country is in bad shape.

As far as challenging Pioneer to publish invoice prices or dealer cost because you want it is ridiculous. By the way those prices really don't mean anything as there are kickbacks, floor planning, free financing, advertising support, etc.

When comes to stuff like this, I'm pretty liberal or left-wing leaning. Companies Like Walmart, Pioneer, and the IRS annoy me.:)

Fair enough!

As you mentioned Walmart I will share with you what was told to me by the former VP of Sales of Proctor and Gamble about 10 years ago.

He was called to meet with a Walmart executive and told that if they wanted to continue doing business with Walmart that they had to meet a certain price point or Walmart would pull their product. Also, for that privilege they could also give Walmart X$$$.

He told Walmart that he would have all of his service reps go into the stores and pull the merchandise, and no they would not pay the $$$. When he got back and met with the P & G board he wasn't well received.

Bottom line is Walmart blinked first but they did move PG products to the bottom shelf.

Fair enough!

As you mentioned Walmart I will share with you what was told to me by the former VP of Sales of Proctor and Gamble about 10 years ago.

He was called to meet with a Walmart executive and told that if they wanted to continue doing business with Walmart that they had to meet a certain price point or Walmart would pull their product. Also, for that privilege they could also give Walmart X$$$.

He told Walmart that he would have all of his service reps go into the stores and pull the merchandise, and no they would not pay the $$$. When he got back and met with the P & G board he wasn't well received.

Bottom line is Walmart blinked first but they did move PG products to the bottom shelf.


There's no benefit to demonizing Walmart. Its just a business, just like Pioneer is just a business. So long as the business is operated within the bounds of the law, regulations and generally accepted good ethical behavior than there's really no reason to single it out as good or bad, other than by the profits it generates.

What Walmart did to P&G is what any good business would do in negotiations. P&G doesn't have to sell its products through Walmart just like Pioneer doesn't. That doesn't mean that Walmart should give an advantage to P&G when other competitors to P&G are willing to extend better terms to Walmart.

In the end I really don't get the demonization of any business whether its Pioneer as an example of a poorly managed company or Walmart as one of the best managed companies in the world. Competitors and suppliers may not like the business terms offered by either but that's why they have a free choice to conduct their business elsewhere.

Not to hijack the thread, but I don't think Wal-Mart 'is demonized' so much as they demonize themselves with their own hardball tactics, poor wages/benefits, shoving out of local Mom-n'-Pop stores, and an over-reliance on China. While Wal-Mart is not alone in any of these things, they were pioneers of a sort in many of them, and thus ended up being the poster child for them. Understandably.

Plus, a great deal of their stuff is crap. Nor are the stores all that great to shop in. The very few times I've been in one, they felt really 'ghetto/white-trashy'. Even Target seemed refined by comparison.

If someone else luvs WallyWorld, great, and I understand that some folks in small towns and rural areas don't have a lot of choices anymore of where to go for their necessities... if they have a Wal-Mart in their area, chances are it already killed off the Mom-n-Pop stores ppl previously relied on, so off to WallyWorld ya go. I get it.

But, I'm lucky enough to live in an urban area with a LOT of choices in retail, and there's lots better places to go than Wal-Mart. So they can go hang far as I'm concerned. Don't like 'em, don't have to like 'em, and that too is just the free market at work.
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All of the preceeding presupposes that iit it is "accepted good ethical behavior" to dictate terms because of one's stength in the market.

"Free choice" to conduct buisness elsewhere constitutes neither freedom or choice practically speaking when one party is overwhelmingly dominant in the market.

Markets are what they are--they can be angelic or demonic.

While the vast majority of the time--"Freedom" results in the best market it does not Always result in the best market.

Andf I wonder what is the difference between Wal-Mart being able to dictate terms to P&G being thought by some supporters of free market capitalism as being a "good" thing while a union dictating terms to Wal-Mart is thought of as being a "bad" thing?

Freedom to exercise financial power does not equate to that exercise of power being inherently "ethical"--even if such exercise would be legal--profit maximizing--or even "accepted" by society in general.

Pioneer's branding isn't the issue. I think most folks would agree, even with basic consumers, its brand is well regarded.

I would agree that branding isn't their biggest problem, but it could easily be part of the solution for them.

I don't think most 'basic consumers' are all that aware of the Pioneer brand in TVs, and if they are, they don't hold it in anywhere near the regard that we videophiles do. Those two things, lower awareness and insufficient regard, cause most average buyers to be unwilling to pay the the significant premium that Pioneer TVs go for.

Pio can be a "tough sell", as someone on the store floor would say.

Improved branding, while not the core of the problem, could definitely be part of the solution for Pioneer. Look at Apple, for example- ppl are willing to pay significant premiums for Apple computers, and have been for many years. Without this, Apple would not have survived their rough years in the mid/late '90s, and would've been acquired by someone else, a very similar situation to what Pio is going through now.

Apple is a case of successful branding. Pio needs to improve in this regard, and become more of a 'status' brand than they currently are.


Unfortunately it has still overpriced its products or not communicated the value of its 5 plasma models well enough to make a profit. In fact, their plasma business is an abject failure from a business perspective after 5 consecutive years of net losses.

The only way better marketing and branding would help is to position their products with an even higher price than they already have to avoid a loss on every single unit they sell. We can all guess how well that would work in this economy.

I wouldn't be so quick to write off branding as part of the cure. The high-end of any market, while not immune to the state of the economy, is at least somewhat sheltered from it. The rich tend to stay rich, after all.

While I think Pio's long-term survival is indeed incumbent upon attracting more 'upper midrange' customers instead of being more or less exclusively high-end, there's no doubt that better branding (of the RIGHT kind) would be helpful. I would agree that its not the whole solution, their cost structure is out of whack.

However, they are taking steps to address that. Look at their recent deal with Panasonic.

Think of Pio's future, involving branding, not so much as using branding to justify EVEN HIGHER prices, as you said, but more a one-two punch of somewhat lower prices (again, due to their Panny deal and restructuring) PLUS better branding/the right branding message.

As in, "Hey, there's this incredibly awesome luxurious TV that only the smart/rich/in-the-know ppl use", BUT, it's actually almost affordable. *YOU* could actually own one."

Before you say that such status/exclusivity is impossible without greatly higher prices as opposed to somewhat-lower, but-still-high prices, again, look at Apple. That's pretty much what they do.

The other alternative is to change their business model to a much more volume based business approach that would allow them to capitalize their fixed costs across many more units sold. This approach would mean far lower prices, elimination of their dealer network and elevate their mass media volume targets. This is a possibility however it would certainly diminish their brand image and possibly have an impact on their other product lines. I'm also sure their exclusive dealer network would have a serious problem with this approach.

That is indeed the tightrope they walk. If they go too far towards the mass market, then yes, they face brand diminishment and dealer rebellion. But there is some sort of happy medium where they increase sales volume without being 'just another brand'. That, combined with their Panasonic deal and recent restructuring plans, could drive down their costs significantly enough to be very useful.


Lastly is to sell off the Plasma business and focus on their profitable and larger car audio business. A possibility.

Or merge the entire business with a stronger better capitalized company. Since Sharp is a 15% equity holder of Pioneer, they are certainly a candidate to take them over. I could see Sharp buying Pioneer and selling off the Plasma business to Panasonic to fund the acquisition. Sharp would dump the money-losing Plasma business given Sharp's lack of Plasma business knowledge and Panny's focus in that area.

That's a very interesting and possible scenario. I think if Pioneer's TV assets get acquired by anyone, most of us here would prefer it be Panasonic in the end, for obvious reasons.

All just speculation but my suspicion is that decisions are in the works and will be executed sooner rather than later given the world economic decline. History says Pioneer can't make money on their Plasma business in a good economy therefore they will only lose dramatically more in a cratered economy.

+1000. I think you hit the nail right on the head, barring some dramatic changes.

Pio's making some good moves now, but if I had to bet, I'd say that they'll likely be acquired. But the problem of making the Pioneer brand and TV assets work will remain, even if they become part of another entity. No one is likely to simply just dump the Pioneer brand over the side, it's part of the value of acquiring those assets.

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Andf I wonder what is the difference between Wal-Mart being able to dictate terms to P&G being thought by some supporters of free market capitalism as being a "good" thing, while a union dictating terms to Wal-Mart is thought of as being a "bad" thing?

Freedom to exercise financial power does not equate to that exercise of power being inherently "ethical"--even if such exercise would be legal--profit maximizing--or even "accepted" by society in general.

An extremely good point. :cool:

It's interesting how champions of big business or 'the market' always have a handy rationale for why the power of big business should be unlimited, but why anyone else having power is a bad thing. Especially unions.

The latest evidence of corporate hypocrisy is surely the bail-out proceedings ongoing in Washington. The whole 'get government out of the way and let us do what we want, that's the free market' rationale was front and center with our various corporate titans for so long, but now that they've screwed themselves, they don't want to pay the consequences of the free market they so profess to love. And they are, of course, first in line begging and crying for government dollars. :p

I think the ethics (or lack thereof) of that speaks for itself. :(

All of the preceeding presupposes that iit it is "accepted good ethical behavior" to dictate terms because of one's stength in the market.

Absolutely

"Free choice" to conduct buisness elsewhere constitutes neither freedom or choice practically speaking when one party is overwhelmingly dominant in the market.

Its always a business' free choice to build a better mouse trap. When they have the "gotta have" product they will be in the position to dictate terms and trust me they will and do, even to a Walmart.

Markets are what they are--they can be angelic or demonic.

Absolutely not...only the people that run the business can be angelic or demonic...by sheer definition.

While the vast majority of the time--"Freedom" results in the best market it does not Always result in the best market.

By definition "freedom" defines the marketplace. You wouldn't have a market without it.

Andf I wonder what is the difference between Wal-Mart being able to dictate terms to P&G being thought by some supporters of free market capitalism as being a "good" thing while a union dictating terms to Wal-Mart is thought of as being a "bad" thing?

So long as the workers have the right to form that union under the laws of the land than yes...its a good thing. Workers have always had the right to organize...clearly they have freely decided it's not in their best interest in the case of Walmart.

Freedom to exercise financial power does not equate to that exercise of power being inherently "ethical"--even if such exercise would be legal--profit maximizing--or even "accepted" by society in general.

At least in America that view is inherently incorrect.


Well...I think the market decides what's ethical in this case. Whether WalMart sells "crap" by some people's definition or Pioneer sells the best Plasma technology on the market is somewhat irrelevant. Its whether or not the consumer's of those products find value in them. Doesn't really matter what you are I as individuals think of those products or how it might relate to our individual standards for ethical business practices. That's why we have laws and regulations generally based on the ethics of the society.

Shoppers love WalMart's "crap" and find enough value in shopping there for the management of that business to make enough money to make a profitable business and one of only 2 companies that were up on the Dow 30 for 2008. Clearly a well-run business by every metric for running a business.

Pioneer OTOH makes a technically top-of-the-line product that not enough people are willing to purchase at a high enough price for the company to a make a single penny on their plasma business in 5 years.

If we're going to equate ethics to busniess, in my book the company that's so poorly run as to put its employees at risk of losing their jobs and all their benefits/future income (ie Pioneer) is the least ethical of the 2.

All of the preceeding presupposes that iit it is "accepted good ethical behavior" to dictate terms because of one's stength in the market.

"Free choice" to conduct buisness elsewhere constitutes neither freedom or choice practically speaking when one party is overwhelmingly dominant in the market.

Markets are what they are--they can be angelic or demonic.

While the vast majority of the time--"Freedom" results in the best market it does not Always result in the best market.

Andf I wonder what is the difference between Wal-Mart being able to dictate terms to P&G being thought by some supporters of free market capitalism as being a "good" thing while a union dictating terms to Wal-Mart is thought of as being a "bad" thing?

Freedom to exercise financial power does not equate to that exercise of power being inherently "ethical"--even if such exercise would be legal--profit maximizing--or even "accepted" by society in general.

Great post.:)

So long as the workers have the right to form that union under the laws of the land than yes...its a good thing. Workers have always had the right to organize...clearly they have freely decided it's not in their best interest.

You seem too smart not to realize that there is such a thing as stacking the deck, in terms of labor laws, or corporations intimidating/retaliating against workers who seek to unionize. Then there's also the practice of shutting down individual stores that choose to unionize, costing those workers their jobs.


Shoppers love WalMart's "crap" and find enough value in shopping there for the management of that business to make enough money to make a profitable business and one of only 2 companies that were up on the Dow 30 for 2008.

I'm not sure it's so much a case of "loving" Wal-Mart's crap as it is not having too many other options, in a lot of cases.

Say you live in a small, isolated town, far away from any major urban centers. Say that the only major store within an hour's drive is WallyWorld. Most of the mom-n'-pop stores have been done in by WallyWorld. You are perhaps older, not too tech-savvy, or need an item NOW, not next week, so online is not a great option. Where are you gonna go? That's right, Wal-Mart.

I'd say in many cases it's not so much 'love' as it is a captive audience.

Yes, it's also the pricing in some cases... if you make minimum wage, you may *have* to go to Wal-Mart, because their cheap crap is all you can afford. But that too is a captive audience, of a different sort.

I'm not sure it's so much a case of "loving" Wal-Mart's crap as it is not having too many other options, in a lot of cases.

Say you live in a small, isolated town, far away from any major urban centers. Say that the only major store within an hour's drive is WallyWorld. Most of the mom-n'-pop stores have been done in by WallyWorld. You are perhaps older, not too tech-savvy, or need an item NOW, not next week, so online is not a great option. Where are you gonna go? That's right, Wal-Mart.

I'd say in many cases it's not so much 'love' as it is a captive audience.

Yes, it's also the pricing in some cases... if you make minimum wage, you may *have* to go to Wal-Mart, because their cheap crap is all you can afford. But that too is a captive audience, of a different sort.

I can't speak about the marketplace in the midwest however I live in the highly dense Northeast where shoppers have more choices then they could ever use. In my county, which is one of the top 2 highest average income counties in the entire US, there are either 4 or 5 Walmarts. Their parking lots are full ALL the time and they have to compete with Targets, Sears, Macy's, Saks and just about every other big retailer name you've ever heard of. And even with all that competition, they are adding another Walmart currently under construction that's inside a 10 mile radius of 3 other Walmarts.

They understand and are definitely meeting the needs of their customer base and that base has lots choices given the avg income of the area, the number of competing chains and the number of local shops in the area. Walmart unquestionably does not have a captive audience in my neck of the woods.

If only Pioneer understood the needs of their customers like Walmart does, they might be able to make a few bucks while continuing to deliver high quality products to the marketplace.

If only Pioneer understood the needs of their customers like Walmart does, they might be able to make a few bucks while continuing to deliver high quality products to the marketplace.

Since when does Wal-Mart know anything about 'high quality' products? They specialize in cheap Chinese-made crap. :confused:

Oh, and as to your other point, while the Northeast is definitely more compact, other parts of the country are much more spread out. I'm sure you're aware of this.

Going up I-5 in Oregon and Northern California, I run across plenty small towns that have Wal-Mart as their only really major store. I'm sure in the rural Midwest and parts of the South, the situation is just as obvious or even moreso.

Since when does Wal-Mart know anything about 'high quality' products? They specialize in cheap Chinese-made crap. :confused:

Oh, and as to your other point, while the Northeast is definitely more compact, other parts of the country are much more spread out. I'm sure you're aware of this.

Going up I-5 in Oregon and Northern California, I run across plenty small towns that have Wal-Mart as their only really major store. I'm sure in the rural Midwest and parts of the South, the situation is just as obvious or even moreso.

I think you misread my earlier sentence regarding high quality. The high quality reference was to the products made by Pioneer, not WalMart.

I don't disagree with you that there are many "one-horse towns" where Walmart has a captive audience. I just wanted to point out that Walmart does just as well when they have many other tough retail competitors surrounding them. I think it shows they know how to stock their stores based on the needs of the local community. Many of the products I find in my WalMart seem unique to our area and I'm sure the same is true for other WalMarts.

The point being that WalMart has taken the time to better understand what their customer's want and then find a way to delivery it ...profitably. Something Pioneer could learn a lesson or 2 about.

You love reminding me of that.:D


Just stating reality where as you keep trying to bury plasma and claim it's dead. :D


Maybe I should shut up and be happy with the KURO as the best display technology for the rest of eternity:(

Do as you please as I wouldn't argue with you if you did, but nobody's claiming the Kuro is the best ever for eternity. There are other technologies likely to come along, but SED just likely isn't one of them. Never give up hope though. ;)

I just wanted to point out that Walmart does just as well when they have many other tough retail competitors surrounding them.

I'm not sure that one person's anecdotal evidence is absolute proof of that.

I'm not sure that one person's anecdotal evidence is absolute proof of that.


Nothing anecdotal about Walmart being one of the pre-eminent businesses in the world from both a growth and profit standpoint. Their business results speak for themselves and far surpass most companies in performance since their inception particularly last year. Clearly they've surpassed Pioneer many times over. Who knows, maybe the solution to Pioneer's problems is to drop their prices and cut a deal with Walmart:)

The fact that Walmart continues to expand in this economy in locations where they already have significant concentration of stores is surely a reflection that they are meeting customer's demand and need even more stores to continue to meet that demand in the future. Has nothing to do with anecdotes from me.

I'm sure in the rural Midwest and parts of the South, the situation is just as obvious or even moreso.

Definitly.
Walmart is the only store in many small towns here in alabama.
Of course, Its mainly because they put all of the small mom&pop electronics shops, pharmacys, and hardware stores completely out of buisness.

Lots of empty buildings left in the wake of Walmart.
In fact, buisness property value decreases when walmart comes into town due to the surplus of empty buildings from buisnesses left in ruin.
But it is nice to have one store where you can get everything you need.

The fact that Walmart continues to expand in this economy in locations where they already have significant concentration of stores is surely a reflection that they are meeting customer's demand and need even more stores to continue to meet that demand in the future. Has nothing to do with anecdotes from me.

Sure. America's becoming more broke year after year, so more and more ppl are forced to shop at Wallyworld just to make ends meet. This very severe recession is just accelerating that.

Many of the bottom-feeder stores are doing pretty well, actually. We get it.

Definitly.
Walmart is the only store in many small towns here in alabama.
Of course, Its mainly because they put all of the small mom&pop electronics shops, pharmacys, and hardware stores completely out of buisness.

Lots of empty buildings left in the wake of Walmart.
In fact, buisness property value decreases when walmart comes into town due to the surplus of empty buildings from buisnesses left in ruin.
But it is nice to have one store where you can get everything you need.


Yup, that's the WallyWorld business model in a nutshell.

So, Chad and Heat, think we've all hijacked this thread sufficiently yet? ;)

It was ostensibly about TVs, I vaguely remember.

Being that Wal-Mart sells millions of TVs they are more than just a tangential part of the thread.

But trust me--if anyone thinks that only TV producers have their defenders in these threads--they are chump change compared to the #1 or # 2 company in America.

I think that it is a bad thing when the market has less companies producing TVs.

I also think it is a bad thing when there are less companies selling TVs.

For that matter I think it is a bad thing when fewer and fewer countries produce most of the TVs.

The USA doesn't produce TVs anymore.

Americans are buying an increasing number of their TVs from an ever growing smaller number of sellers.

Beggars can't be choosers.

The least common denominator might be more efficient and more profitable but it hardly equates in the long run to innovation or increased TV quality.

Make any product low priced enough and what are the chances that possible better products will flourish at higher prices?

Does anyone remember when we had basically one phone company and paid out the wazoo?

We aren't to that point yet with TVs and Wal-Mart doesn't own 100% of the retail market but the closer and closer we get to that point and the closer and closer we get to the point of fewer TV producers and fewer and fewer countries producing them what will happen?

What are the chances that the laws and regulations which reflect the financial power of a one seller market will be tilted in such a way that innovation and quality will be stifled?

Now you won't get me to shed alot of tears if Pioneer doesn't make it.

And you won't see alot of tears from me if Wal-Mart sells all the TVs in the world at a cheap price.

You will hear of my tears at this forum if picture quality in TVs deosn't advance.

If Pioneer were to die--and if the state of the art in TVs never achieved that level for a few years--that would be a bad thing.

And it wouldn't matter if the whole world of consumers was happy with less and if the companies still producing TVs made a boat load of money.

Some people know the price of many things but can't grasp the concept of intrinsic value.

Great picture quality IS.

It isn't dependent on who likes it--who values it--who makes money on it or what it costs.

Yup, that's the WallyWorld business model in a nutshell.

So, Chad and Heat, think we've all hijacked this thread sufficiently yet? ;)

It was ostensibly about TVs, I vaguely remember.

Just about...back to the TV makers. Pioneer has their delayed earnings report on Feb. 12. I think this financial report for the 3rd qtr of their fiscal year will provide alot of insight as to whether or not Pioneer has a future as an independent plasma maker. I certainly hope they have a good story to tell because if its worse than their 2nd qtr than I suspect their stock holders will be screaming bloody murder.

History says Pioneer can't make money on their Plasma business in a good economy therefore they will only lose dramatically more in a cratered economy.


I do not know Pioneer's plasma sales history are you saying that Pioneer has never made much off their incredible performing plasmas?

Why?
Man, I just do not get it....anyone who has spent some time looking at a number of HDTVs including Pioneer's Kuros knows that the Kuros are the best.

Pioneer should be the wealthiest (by far) of all HDTV manufacturers .

I do not know Pioneer's plasma sales history are you saying that Pioneer has never made much off their incredible performing plasmas?

Why?
Man, I just do not get it....anyone who has spent some time looking at a number of HDTVs including Pioneer's Kuros knows that the Kuros are the best.

I don't get it either other than a poorly run business. Check out post #15 in this thread and some of the links I posted. Pioneer has lost money as a corporation for the last 5 consecutive years running with the Plasma business being the primary culprit. The Car audio business has kept the business from going completely under during the past 5yrs based on their financials.

Hard to imagine they could screw-up the business with the best flat screen tv on the market. Its going to be interesting to see what they do next to reverse 5 years of losses.

Thanks Heatwave.

Well with the United State's economy in the shape it is in, it is gonna be hard on every HDTV manufacturer..... the scary part is , it could get alot worse before it gets better and this could go on for a very long time.

All I can say is I sure hope they survive this. No question that getting prices down has to be #1 on their list. Forget about making a better set, they are already 99.99% perfect.

If Pioneer does not survive this , it will be sad.....but one thing is for sure, if they go down others will follow.....we are in very hard times and it could get alot worse before it gets better. :(

Pioneer has lost money as a corporation for the last 5 consecutive years running with the Plasma business being the primary culprit.

Therefore, their predicament cannot be blamed on bad economy. Bad economy may eventually make them go out of business but the economy was fine until the second half of last year.

The explanation is a lot simpler and less sophisticated. Just compare the MSRPs of PRO-111FD and LN52A650, which are 4500 and 2700, respectively. One major on-line retailer has these two sets at 3400 and 1700.

As a side note: just go that retailer's website and look at the picture showing the Elite. The screen is gray but the frame, as a point of reference, is black so the picture is true. This is going to be that "deep deep black" during daytime.

Joe walks into a store and sees it and says WTF or something like that. In response to this quick review a salesman must now convince Joe how it is worth to spend ADDITIONAL 1600 because at home, when it is really dark, Joe will finally be able to appreciate the difference between black and really really black but, unfortunately, not here in the store. Joe just doesn't buy it because he already knows this old line: Do you believe me or your lying eyes? He is also quick with math, even without his calculator, that for just the DIFFERENCE he can buy another set like LN46A630 for his den and still be left with 300. Or that bluray and the speakers and a great AV receiver. On top of that he is getting less screen.

Let's assume that Joe is married. Imagine his agony at the very thought of telling Jane that they should spend 1600 extra for....

This is where I will stop to give you guys a chance to give Joe his talking points for the conversation with Jane. As O'Reilly would say: Go.

Just one more thing. Jane has a list of her own. On that list she has items she has been dreaming about since she was a little girl and Joe knows it. This is why Pioneer is a 5-year loser while Samsung, until recently along with others, has been making a ton of money.

Pioneer should be the wealthiest (by far) of all HDTV manufacturers .


I agree. Now where did I put my Betamax VCR?

Ramazur, I think you're on to something here. While their pricing surely hurts the Pioneer sets when compared to their competition in a BB showroom, the problem is double compounded when their display unit looks like crap to the average joe against a decent LCD or even other Plasmas in the showroom. I think they have a marketing problem to convince "better halves" to agree to shell out thousands more $s for a display that looks like crap in the showroom.

They might consider a campaign to have all their display models quickly calibrated to D-Nice's settings for the showroom and perhaps that might help their cause (along with lowering the price).


Therefore, their predicament cannot be blamed on bad economy. Bad economy may eventually make them go out of business but the economy was fine until the second half of last year.

The explanation is a lot simpler and less sophisticated. Just compare the MSRPs of PRO-111FD and LN52A650, which are 4500 and 2700, respectively. One major on-line retailer has these two sets at 3400 and 1700.

As a side note: just go that retailer's website and look at the picture showing the Elite. The screen is gray but the frame, as a point of reference, is black so the picture is true. This is going to be that "deep deep black" during daytime.

Joe walks into a store and sees it and says WTF or something like that. In response to this quick review a salesman must now convince Joe how it is worth to spend ADDITIONAL 1600 because at home, when it is really dark, Joe will finally be able to appreciate the difference between black and really really black but, unfortunately, not here in the store. Joe just doesn't buy it because he already knows this old line: Do you believe me or your lying eyes? He is also quick with math, even without his calculator, that for just the DIFFERENCE he can buy another set like LN46A630 for his den and still be left with 300. Or that bluray and the speakers and a great AV receiver. On top of that he is getting less screen.

Let's assume that Joe is married. Imagine his agony at the very thought of telling Jane that they should spend 1600 extra for....

This is where I will stop to give you guys a chance to give Joe his talking points for the conversation with Jane. As O'Reilly would say: Go.

Just one more thing. Jane has a list of her own. On that list she has items she has been dreaming about since she was a little girl and Joe knows it. This is why Pioneer is a 5-year loser while Samsung, until recently along with others, has been making a ton of money.

I agree. Now where did I put my Betamax VCR?

Right next to your 8-track player.

Bad economy may eventually make them go out of business but the economy was fine until the second half of last year.


I don't know what country you live in?

The good ole days. :D

Therefore, their predicament cannot be blamed on bad economy. Bad economy may eventually make them go out of business but the economy was fine until the second half of last year.

The explanation is a lot simpler and less sophisticated. Just compare the MSRPs of PRO-111FD and LN52A650, which are 4500 and 2700, respectively. One major on-line retailer has these two sets at 3400 and 1700.

As a side note: just go that retailer's website and look at the picture showing the Elite. The screen is gray but the frame, as a point of reference, is black so the picture is true. This is going to be that "deep deep black" during daytime.

Joe walks into a store and sees it and says WTF or something like that. In response to this quick review a salesman must now convince Joe how it is worth to spend ADDITIONAL 1600 because at home, when it is really dark, Joe will finally be able to appreciate the difference between black and really really black but, unfortunately, not here in the store. Joe just doesn't buy it because he already knows this old line: Do you believe me or your lying eyes? He is also quick with math, even without his calculator, that for just the DIFFERENCE he can buy another set like LN46A630 for his den and still be left with 300. Or that bluray and the speakers and a great AV receiver. On top of that he is getting less screen.

Let's assume that Joe is married. Imagine his agony at the very thought of telling Jane that they should spend 1600 extra for....

This is where I will stop to give you guys a chance to give Joe his talking points for the conversation with Jane. As O'Reilly would say: Go.

Just one more thing. Jane has a list of her own. On that list she has items she has been dreaming about since she was a little girl and Joe knows it. This is why Pioneer is a 5-year loser while Samsung, until recently along with others, has been making a ton of money.

How about comparing the 5020 to the a650 since that would be a closer comparison in IQ, with the 5020 still being superior.



Heatwave3....a Kuro can be bought for less than some LCD's reccomended here daily and barely more than the Panny plasmas reccomeded here daily.

How about comparing the 5020 to the a650 since that would be a closer comparison in IQ, with the 5020 still being superior.



Heatwave3....a Kuro can be bought for less than some LCD's recommended here daily and barely more than the Panny plasmas recommended here daily.

I think the competitiveness of the pricing of the Pioneer's is a recent development. If you go back to last fall and earlier the Pioneer's were generally significantly higher than their competition and when displayed in the same showroom with the competition, generally did not fare well. It's going to take time for consumers to view the Pioneers as competitively price and time may not be on Pioneer's side given the economy. They may need to get real dramatic in their pricing to capture the consumer's attention, then do a better job of selling the quality story with their next gen and work themselves back to premium pricing as the story of their quality picture becomes more broadly accepted.

A/V enthusiasts see and understand the quality of their screens however the everyday consumer does not see it in the showroom. All they see is a price that's equal to or higher than "lesser" sets and a "dimmer" picture that actually looks worse to their eye in the showroom. Not likely to be an easy problem to fix as consumer's are generally just crossing the Pio off their shopping list as "not for them".

Enthusiasts may think that its OK for the "non-educated" to strike the Pio off their list, however unless more folks keep the Pio on their shopping list the enthusiasts may be out of luck down the road.

But they also blew out the 5080 and 1150 last year for 'very' competitive prices, just like now with the 5020....just have to wait since their calendr year is months behind other manuf.

I do agree with your assessment of Joe6Pack in the store.

Just stating reality where as you keep trying to bury plasma and claim it's dead. :D




Do as you please as I wouldn't argue with you if you did, but nobody's claiming the Kuro is the best ever for eternity. There are other technologies likely to come along, but SED just likely isn't one of them. Never give up hope though. ;)

If SED isn't going to be one them, that's a travesty to the whole world.

Pioneer should be the wealthiest (by far) of all HDTV manufacturers .

You see, this all emotionalism or fanboyism as some would call it. This has nothing to do with hard numbers.

Anyway, Pioneer is their own worst enemies. They might make the best plasmas, but the problem is they're not good enough to justify their premium prices.

I don't know what country you live in?

I am pleased to say that I live in the United States of America, population 300 million, capital city: Washington, DC. Unofficial language: English. Currency: dollar.

Now that we got this important set of facts out of the way, what is the point you were trying to get to as I assume that there is deeper thought behind your question.

Your "cuteness" asside, the fact that you say our economy was good until Q3 of last year is laughable at best.

You see, this all emotionalism or fanboyism as some would call it. This has nothing to do with hard numbers.



I'm busted , thanks for pointing that out...and sorry. Regardless how good their products are apparantly the business end of Pioneer has problems.

Your "cuteness" asside, the fact that you say our economy was good until Q3 of last year is laughable at best.

I think the poor economy did not become very apparant to most Americans until the stock market crashed.

I think the competitiveness of the pricing of the Pioneer's is a recent development. If you go back to last fall and earlier the Pioneer's were generally significantly higher than their competition and when displayed in the same showroom with the competition, generally did not fare well. It's going to take time for consumers to view the Pioneers as competitively price and time may not be on Pioneer's side given the economy. They may need to get real dramatic in their pricing to capture the consumer's attention, then do a better job of selling the quality story with their next gen and work themselves back to premium pricing as the story of their quality picture becomes more broadly accepted.

A/V enthusiasts see and understand the quality of their screens however the everyday consumer does not see it in the showroom. All they see is a price that's equal to or higher than "lesser" sets and a "dimmer" picture that actually looks worse to their eye in the showroom. Not likely to be an easy problem to fix as consumer's are generally just crossing the Pio off their shopping list as "not for them".

Enthusiasts may think that its OK for the "non-educated" to strike the Pio off their list, however unless more folks keep the Pio on their shopping list the enthusiasts may be out of luck down the road.


Well said.

And that's why they make Mercedes and also Huyandai's.

And that's why they make Mercedes and also Huyandai's.

Mercedes are no longer that great, while Huyandai's have improved over the years. However the Mercedes still give you that badge.

Sigh.....you are something else auditor55, the fact that you have worn on 'so' many on this board(probably more than anyone other than sampo) is quite easy to see.

I am going to log off and enjoy my super sunday sans you.

Sigh.....you are something else auditor55, the fact that you have worn on 'so' many on this board(probably more than anyone other than sampo) is quite easy to see.

I am going to log off and enjoy my super sunday sans you.

Don't you love democracy:D

Enjoy your sunday.

Your "cuteness" asside, the fact that you say our economy was good until Q3 of last year is laughable at best.

Rethorical questions deserve sarcasm. The link below will be helpful in deciding who will be laughing last. A clue: check Chart 2 on the first page.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/empsit.pdf

From that chart you will see that it was almost to a week in the middle of last year when the employment turned south at a high rate having peaked out at the beginning of 2008.

By the way, the source is the Bureau of Labor Statistics so I am assuming that it is credible enough for you. I am still glad I was able to make you laugh.

And we were in shining shape before that? No.
This was a long running process that has lead up to this point.
And you still rub everyone the wrong way. ;)

And we were in shining shape before that? No.
This was a long running process that has lead up to this point.
And you still rub everyone the wrong way. ;)

Sony was profitable until 2008. Others were too so from their perspective things were shining. The long term customs and habits of my fellow Americans of spending money they didn't have was an unsustainable process which came to a screeching halt in the fall of last year. While they were still feeding their addiction to mindless "shopping" everybody from the manufacturers to retailers was licking their chops and laughing all the way to the nearest bank before it closed.

As far as me giving anyone a massage improperly, I am really desperately at a loss how I accomplished it. Any specifics you could give me would be greatly appreciated.

Have a nice day the two of you. :)

Have a nice day the two of you. :)


lol.

If Pioneer wants to survive, they need to start manufacturing LCDs, simple as that. The general public prefers LCD and Pioneer's plasma technology isn't compelling enough to warrant the premium.

Oh and Pioneer's styling needs work. If they're gonna charge premium pricing for their TVs, it should look like a premium product. Look at Sony's XBR series. They look expensive.

Well, Samsung and Panasonic have names with greater resonance than Pioneer with the general public. That is one reason why those companies will survive.
The premium pricing for Pioneer, a name that only resonates with a tiny group of enthusiast has a good chance of killing them in the plasma market.
4 years of losses demostrates that. I think Pioneer will survive as a home and auto audio company but I don't see 'em as a stand alone flat screen company for long.

Everyone knows mercedes. You don't have to be an enthusiast. Even with that Mercedes never stopped upping the ante functionally and visibly.
Quite frankly to the general public, Samsung and Panasonic are the mercedes and bmw of the flat screen market!

STRUER, DENMARK— Bang & Olufsen issued a second round of personnel cuts and plans to raise $70.3 million by issuing preferential stock, and it announced an accelerated product-launch schedule to cope with the world economic crisis, turn around a first-half operating loss, and carry through restructuring plans announced last October.


http://www.twice.com/article/CA6632732.html?industryid=23097

Well, Samsung and Panasonic have names with greater resonance than Pioneer with the general public. That is one reason why those companies will survive.
The premium pricing for Pioneer, a name that only resonates with a tiny group of enthusiast has a good chance of killing them in the plasma market.
4 years of losses demostrates that. I think Pioneer will survive as a home and auto audio company but I don't see 'em as a stand alone flat screen company for long.

Everyone knows mercedes. You don't have to be an enthusiast. Even with that Mercedes never stopped upping the ante functionally and visibly.
Quite frankly to the general public, Samsung and Panasonic are the mercedes and bmw of the flat screen market!

You are spot on. Pioneer can not sell enough units to cover its high fixed costs in this capital intensive business. Combine that with cut throat pricing with thin margins and what you have is a flat screen market that will consist of only the largest manufacturers within 18 months (Samsung, Panasonic, Sony will survive. I wouldn't be suprised to see Philips throw in the towel and Pioneer, as we know it, will cease to exist. Perhaps the Pioneer name and some technology will get sold to a current competitor)

You are spot on. Pioneer can not sell enough units to cover its high fixed costs in this capital intensive business. Combine that with cut throat pricing with thin margins and what you have is a flat screen market that will consist of only the largest manufacturers within 18 months (Samsung, Panasonic, Sony will survive. I wouldn't be suprised to see Philips throw in the towel and Pioneer, as we know it, will cease to exist. Perhaps the Pioneer name and some technology will get sold to a current competitor)

What about MITS and Toshiba??

Mits and Toshiba is the LCD flat panel busines so they might hang around. However, Pioneer's entire business model just smells of extinction, I think the buzzards are already starting to fly around them.

Unless the value of Pioneer drops significantly, I don't see Panasonic benefiting from acquiring Pioneer. They have technology that competes with Pioneer at the high end (or very close) and they compete through the product ranges. Buying the name doesn't significantly help Panasonic, IMO.
Currently, Pioneer has two lines, the Elite, and the regular ones.

Panasonic could very well keep the branding "Elite" for top of the line models and keep the Panasonic branding for their second best line.

That's for TVs. Pioneer is not only about TV, and I think their car audio division is in better shape, and makes better products than Panasonic.

There's some gain to be made, the question is always at what price.

In ANY business/service industry, you have to be going out of your way to self-terminate when you offer the BEST product. And, by MOST accounts, Pioneer offers the finest televisions available. As others in this thread have alluded, a distinction needs to be made between VALUE and TOP-TIER QUALITY. Virtually every industry on earth offers plenty of room for BOTH. This is an imperative point to understand.

I won't get into a pointless debate of how, when, where and why Pio "went wrong", because it is just that: pointless.

What I WILL say is that it is dangerous (and flatly, ignorant, really) to predict that a company currently producing the best product or service will be "going under" anytime soon without some pretty heavy-hitting info...and I've seen none of that thus far in this thread.

Personally, I wont' (and can't) speak for Pioneer's future in the plasma industry. But, if they continue to produce "a" top product, there is always room for "re-structuring" (in MORE than a single form, btw) and thus, a new window for profitability.

James

And, by MOST accounts, Pioneer offers the finest televisions available.

Again, that's subjectivism and doesn't deal with the hardcore facts and numbers that this thread is trying to cover.

Plasma makers being in trouble, and looking at the numbers, Pioneer is no doubt in trouble. Whether or not Pioneer makes the best plays really is irrelevant to this discussion.

Again, that's subjectivism and doesn't deal with the hardcore facts and numbers that this thread is trying to cover.

Plasma makers being in trouble, and looking at the numbers, Pioneer is no doubt in trouble. Whether or not Pioneer makes the best plays really is irrelevant to this discussion.

What? The quality of the product they produce is ENTIRELY and supremely relevant to the issue (pick one btw, as a more than a handful have been introduced in this thread).

Your insatiable appetite for "hardcore facts and numbers" is what's really irrelevant, as numerous others here have already pointed out.

Even if you had some "hardcore numbers and facts" (like "mark-up" LOL) they would still be rendered meaningless without an additonal heaping of SIGNIFICANT, correlated, data. Perhaps we have another in our midst who can lay this all out for you, but I'm certainly not going to expend the time or energy.

And by the way, labeling an assertion that's widely accepted by experts (in this case, NEARLY EVERY SINGLE authoritive A/V W-SITE and PUBLICATION) as "subjectivism" sounds sexy, but it's largely impotent. Although I would admit that such an assertion is rarely accurate, this IS one of those rare cases, as Pioneer Kuros and Elites are annually the top-rated consumer displays available. This is a fact, unadultered by subjectivity. Check the history.

Regardless, I will reiterate my earlier point that (unless privy to true insider info) speculation re the future solvency of a large corp that produces "a" top tier product or service is a crap-shoot. There are proven work-a-rounds in the business world too numerous to describe (or even name) in this thread.

James

What? The quality of the product they produce is ENTIRELY and supremely relevant to the issue (pick one btw, as a more than a handful have been introduced in this thread).

Your insatiable appetite for "hardcore facts and numbers" is what's really irrelevant, as numerous others here have already pointed out.

Even if you had some "hardcore numbers and facts" (like "mark-up" LOL) they would still be rendered meaningless without an additonal heaping of SIGNIFICANT, correlated, data. Perhaps we have another in our midst who can lay this all out for you, but I'm certainly not going to expend the time or energy.

And by the way, labeling an assertion that's widely accepted by experts (in this case, NEARLY EVERY SINGLE authoritive A/V W-SITE and PUBLICATION) as "subjectivism" sounds sexy, but it's largely impotent. Although I would admit that such an assertion is rarely accurate, this IS one of those rare cases, as Pioneer Kuros and Elites are annually the top-rated consumer displays available. This is a fact, unadultered by subjectivity. Check the history.

Regardless, I will reiterate my earlier point that (unless privy to true insider info) speculation re the future solvency of a large corp that produces "a" top tier product or service is a crap-shoot. There are proven work-a-rounds in the business world too numerous to describe or even mention in this thread.

James

OK, if you don't want to deal with facts that's fine, you certainly have a right to your opinion.

But again, I reiterate, this thread isn't about wether or not Pioneer is the best, that has nothing to do with anything regarding this thread.

Come 2/12/09, when Pioneer releases their reports, when get chance to look at hardcore numbers, but I wouldn't expect a rosy outlook.

By the way, let me state for the record that I have no dog in this fight, sts. As a matter of fact, with the advancement of OLED, I seriously doubt Pio (or anyone else for that matter) will even be producing PDP's in 2-3 years. This is a natural progression in tech, and by no means is wholly indicative of a org's future operations and respective product. See Sony dropping plasma altogether to focus on LCD.

Proclaiming the coming "extinction" of plasma is as prophetic as stating: "it will be cold next winter".

It's an inevitability, I'm afraid.

James

OK, if you don't want to deal with facts that's fine, you certainly have a right to your opinion.

But again, I reiterate, this thread isn't about wether or not Pioneer is the best, that has nothing to do with anything regarding this thread.

Come 2/12/09, when Pioneer releases their reports, when get chance to look at hardcore numbers, but I wouldn't expect a rosy outlook.

I gave you facts. You ignored them. What's a man to do?

Fact: Pioneer displays are widely recognized as the best in the industry by experts in the field.

This is a fact that can be verified by pooling avail historical resources. Go ahead, conduct even a small search and post your results. I welcome their arrival.

You may disagree (or agree for that matter) with the "experts", but that opinion has no bearing on the validity of the aforementioned statement.

James

By the way, let me state for the record that I have no dog in this fight, sts. As a matter of fact, with the advancement of OLED, I seriously doubt Pio (or anyone else for that matter) will even be producing PDP's in 2-3 years.

That seems overly optimistic (or pessimistic, if one is a plasma partisan).

After all, we have high-level Samsung execs saying that "LCD can hold off OLED for many years" because OLED is still so expensive, and will be for awhile:

http://whathifi.com/News/Samsung-TV-boss-LCD-can-hold-off-OLED-for-many-years/


I think some other execs have said more positive things regarding OLED, but that was for smaller displays, like in notebooks. Makes sense that those would drop to a near-reasonable price much earlier than TVs.

In ANY business/service industry, you have to be going out of your way to self-terminate when you offer the BEST product. And, by MOST accounts, Pioneer offers the finest televisions available. As others in this thread have alluded, a distinction needs to be made between VALUE and TOP-TIER QUALITY. Virtually every industry on earth offers plenty of room for BOTH. This is an imperative point to understand.

I won't get into a pointless debate of how, when, where and why Pio "went wrong", because it is just that: pointless.

What I WILL say is that it is dangerous (and flatly, ignorant, really) to predict that a company currently producing the best product or service will be "going under" anytime soon without some pretty heavy-hitting info...and I've seen none of that thus far in this thread.

Personally, I wont' (and can't) speak for Pioneer's future in the plasma industry. But, if they continue to produce "a" top product, there is always room for "re-structuring" (in MORE than a single form, btw) and thus, a new window for profitability.

James


mastermaybe....your remarks above are reasonable in the abstract however I think you might consider reading some of the links I provided in post#15 of this thread and see if you still feel the same way about the future of Pioneer. After reading the financials in those links I would be very interested if your view of Pioneer's future remains the same as in your post above.

5 years is a long time for investors to lose money and unquestionably the first 3+ years of the past 5 were during a relatively strong economic period. If Pioneer can't make money during good economic times, I hate to venture a guess as to how they have performed financially in the last qtr. The good news is that no one needs to guess since they will be releasing their 3rd qtr fiscal performance (Oct/Nov/Dec 2008) on 2/12/09.

If Pioneer wants to survive, they need to start manufacturing LCDs, simple as that. The general public prefers LCD and Pioneer's plasma technology isn't compelling enough to warrant the premium.

Oh and Pioneer's styling needs work. If they're gonna charge premium pricing for their TVs, it should look like a premium product. Look at Sony's XBR series. They look expensive.

Hi,

It is not that simple - Pioneer now do make LCD's and they have been on sale in Europe now for quite some time. Unfortunately, they simply did not have the expected impact on the LCD market that the Kuro's had in the plasma camp. Although overall they were considered to be amonsgt the better LCD sets, the performance gap between the Pio LCD's and Plasmas was just too wide and many felt that the performance gap between Pio LCD's and other brands was too narrow. Pioneer did not help matters as they were ridiculously expensive when first introduced (even more so than the G9 plasmas in some cases) so that did not exactly help matters. They were in the market place for months and sales were abysmal.

Very recently, Pioneer has very drastically cut prices of their LCD line up but even then, people are simply not biting. This could be due to anticipation of new LCD tech coming out soon from other brands or better value perceived from other brands. Unfortunately, many LCD owners simply did not entertain getting a Pioneer LCD for another reason - the fact that they saw it as nothing more than a souped up Sharp model (which might be very unfair to Pioneer) but that was the perception, at least here across all of Europe. Ironically, the association with Sharp was almost like a Kiss of Death to the Pioneer LCD models and when quite a few owners reported both banding and backlight bleed issues on some sets, that seemed to perpetrate the feelings that the Pioneer LCD's were just re-badged Sharps. Unfortunately also, many were totally unforgiving of such issues on sets for which Pioneer initially promised would be competitively priced but which when arrived were so very expensive.

I think the Pioneer LCD strategy is in very, very big trouble - others have significantly raised the bar in terms of PQ and black levels with the advent of LED-BL and with a host of multi-media and connectivity features. Pioneer will not be bringing out any new sets till the end part of this year and based on present trends, once they get rid of the discounted stock they are trying to shift, they will have totally flat LCD sales. In the interim, all the other brands will have introduced their latest and greatest and will be cutting each others throats for sales in these difficult times. Pioneer will be expected to surpass the very best of other brands which will mean it will have to be LED-BL,have all the bells & whistles, and not threaten their own plasma lines. They then will have to price very carefully - they now know people will simply not pay silly money for one of the Kuro LCD's - there is way too much choice in this market. Even if, Pioneer next produce LCD sets which are better than the very enlightenment of the Buddha himself and then priced perfectly, the problem many may still have is that they will always see it as a "Sharp Inside" and nightmare visions of banding realm to the surface at point of consideration & purchase!

Bazzy!

That seems overly optimistic (or pessimistic, if one is a plasma partisan).

After all, we have high-level Samsung execs saying that "LCD can hold off OLED for many years" because OLED is still so expensive, and will be for awhile:

http://whathifi.com/News/Samsung-TV-boss-LCD-can-hold-off-OLED-for-many-years/


I think some other execs have said more positive things regarding OLED, but that was for smaller displays, like in notebooks. Makes sense that those would drop to a near-reasonable price much earlier than TVs.

But....if pdp's stop being produced there will be enough of an outcry/reaching for a new tech that manufacturers will then push it more as LCD by itself will certainly not cut it.
Just my guess.

Oh and Pioneer's styling needs work. If they're gonna charge premium pricing for their TVs, it should look like a premium product. Look at Sony's XBR series. They look expensive.Please forgive my admittedly personal viewpoint. When it comes to aesthetics, IMO Pioneer PDP is BY FAR the best (followed by Panasonic "pro" PDP) and has been for many many years. It actually looks expensive to me unlike most brands. I found Pioneer aesthetics to be the best even before its performance was the best (back in the Panny dominence days). I find the XBR to be one of the ugliest designs around. And my god, the XBR8 is the worst of the bunch with its obese profile and speaker design. And why Samsung seems to like the plastic fisher price toy look is beyond me?

:) Obviously, very few would agree with me but that's my personal take...........

Cheers

mastermaybe....your remarks above are reasonable in the abstract however I think you might consider reading some of the links I provided in post#15 of this thread and see if you still feel the same way about the future of Pioneer. After reading the financials in those links I would be very interested if your view of Pioneer's future remains the same as in your post above.

5 years is a long time for investors to lose money and unquestionably the first 3+ years of the past 5 were during a relatively strong economic period. If Pioneer can't make money during good economic times, I hate to venture a guess as to how they have performed financially in the last qtr. The good news is that no one needs to guess since they will be releasing their 3rd qtr fiscal performance (Oct/Nov/Dec 2008) on 2/12/09.

Thank for pointing out to him more facts.

Let's assume that Panasonic buys Pioneer and all their technology.

They won't kill the Pioneer name because it has value. So where do you position Pioneer sets with their Panasonic.

Pioneer as an elite brand, only producing maybe a top tier set? And then position Panasonic sets below that?

Wouldn't you be concerned about 'discounting' the Panasonic brand name by following this?

Or keep the brands separate, competing in the same high-end market share?

Unless the value of Pioneer drops significantly, I don't see Panasonic benefiting from acquiring Pioneer. They have technology that competes with Pioneer at the high end (or very close) and they compete through the product ranges. Buying the name doesn't significantly help Panasonic, IMO.

Panasonic Corporation today *is* a multi-brand outfit, and always has been. (In fact, Panasonic is only thei best-known of their brands in North America; it's not their flagship brand anywhere else, and it's not even their only brand in North America. Here's a surprise; Panasonic, for the longest time, wasn't even the *flagship* brand in North America; that honor went to Technics, which was Matsushita Electric's *boutique* brand in North America. The *house brand* in Asia was not Panasonic, either; that honor went to National. Technics was, for a long time, better known than Panasonic in Europe; what brought the Panasonic brand to Europe was, fittingly, ME's power-generation and battery business. Panasonic in Asia, oddly enough, meant IT; they were the second-largest manufacturer of computer preipherals other than printers for use/resale within Asia (in the early days of multimedia PCs, chances are that if you bought a *typical* multimedia add-on package, it included a Panasonic CD-ROM drive, especially between 1992-1996). The big get bigger, once again.

Obviously, very few would agree with me but that's my personal take.

Pioneer's monitor look is fine, but the glossy black bezel has been outdated for a while. I'm seeing LOEWE TV (http://www.loewe-int.de/en/products/loewe-individual/individual-selection.html)s on many interior magazines. Very high end style.

But....if pdp's stop being produced there will be enough of an outcry/reaching for a new tech that manufacturers will then push it more as LCD by itself will certainly not cut it.
Just my guess.

That could be, but regardless, one can't magically wave a wand and make OLEDs price-competitive. Some very smart ppl have been trying very hard for a very long time, and we're still not there yet.

It'll happen, but not near as quickly as some hope.

I'm not one waiting for the OLED train to come to town, just thinking how bad it would be if say in four or five years my only option is an LCD.(personally)
I guess I should pray for longevity of my pdp.

So if it comes to that point I hope that some fires will get lit....as I have read that they could be further along but don't want to ruin a good thing.(money flowing in for inexpensive lcd tech)

Pioneer's monitor look is fine, but the glossy black bezel has been outdated for a while. I'm seeing LOEWE TV (http://www.loewe-int.de/en/products/loewe-individual/individual-selection.html)s on many interior magazines. Very high end style.
It's a shame more manufacturers don't allow for custom cosmetics. It seems like a straightforward way to add value to a product.


To me, there is nothing more boring and staid than glossy black polycarbonate. A bit of wood, metal, metalic finish, colour, etc makes for a much nicer look.

Some Q4 pdp numbers are out.
Please excuse the cross post as I also posted in the main plasma thread.
http://www.twice.com/article/CA6634054.html

Some Q4 pdp numbers are out.
Please excuse the cross post as I also posted in the main plasma thread.
http://www.twice.com/article/CA6634054.html

Based on the 29% drop for Pioneer on such a small base to start with, its becoming very difficult to see how Pioneer remains a viable manufacturer even with the outsourcing of the screen manufacturer to Panasonic. I'm really disappointed to say this but I think the "fat lady" may be warming up in the green room.

Same is true for Hitachi and Orion as plasma brands. I doubt any of these 3 brands remain viable as independent Plasma Display brands through the end of 2009.

Not to hijack the thread, but I don't think Wal-Mart 'is demonized' so much as they demonize themselves with their own hardball tactics, poor wages/benefits, shoving out of local Mom-n'-Pop stores, and an over-reliance on China. While Wal-Mart is not alone in any of these things, they were pioneers of a sort in many of them, and thus ended up being the poster child for them. Understandably.

Plus, a great deal of their stuff is crap. Nor are the stores all that great to shop in. The very few times I've been in one, they felt really 'ghetto/white-trashy'. Even Target seemed refined by comparison.

If someone else luvs WallyWorld, great, and I understand that some folks in small towns and rural areas don't have a lot of choices anymore of where to go for their necessities... if they have a Wal-Mart in their area, chances are it already killed off the Mom-n-Pop stores ppl previously relied on, so off to WallyWorld ya go. I get it.

But, I'm lucky enough to live in an urban area with a LOT of choices in retail, and there's lots better places to go than Wal-Mart. So they can go hang far as I'm concerned. Don't like 'em, don't have to like 'em, and that too is just the free market at work.
.


I agree. Even though I shop at Wal-Mart occasionally (lack of variety around here), I don't care for their business practices either. I think that they have hurt the economy more than they have helped it. Like you stated, their anti-competitive busniness practices, labor policies, and their quest for rock bottom prices have forced a lot of local stores, and national retail chains out of business, and caused U.S. manufacturing jobs to be lost and sent overseas.

Everybody likes low prices, but these people don't seem to understand the collateral damage that companies like this have caused, and will cause.

Thank for pointing out to him more facts.


Yeah, more "facts".

"Holding off" is about as subjective of a phrase as you'll find. I'll just stick by my posts and see what develops, thanks. :rolleyes:

Speaking to the matter of plasma tech, it's only been "holding it's own" against LCD (now losing of course) because of it's PQ superiority, recognized by the vast majority of consumers that care about such inconsequential things.

Sure LCD will "hold off" OLED in the mainstream for awhile yet, as most people do not buy new televsions every 1-3 years. What OLED WILL DO however, is take the "HI-END" crown from Pioneer and slowly (2-4 years) morph into the mid to upper spectrum of new display purchasers. It is this HI END theft that I am speaking of that will prove to be the demise of plasma. It's the only foothold plasma has. Once it loses it's reign as the supreme display tech, it'll be all but over. I never asserted that OLED would be in 40 million living rooms by 2011, BTW.

2-3 years is not a couple of seasons, folks. I would bet there will be a smattering of large, expensive OLEDs next year, and even more in 2011 at a reduced MSRP's. Who knows what 2012 will bring. Yes, 2012 is < 3 years away.

You can already purchase an OLED tv. To say that they wont come in larger sizes at significantly reduced price points in the next 3 years is very naive, IMO.

James

"mastermaybe....your remarks above are reasonable in the abstract however I think you might consider reading some of the links I provided in post#15 of this thread and see if you still feel the same way about the future of Pioneer. After reading the financials in those links I would be very interested if your view of Pioneer's future remains the same as in your post above."




It's imperative to keep in mind that I NEVER professed MY view on Pioneer's "outlook" because I haven't formed one. What I am maintaining is that pre-determining a company's demise without knowing intimate details about their operations, future strategies, product R&D, etc is foolish.

Until I see evidence that those that are espousing such prognostications HAVE such detail, I'll stand by the aforementioned.

respectfully,
James

Based on the 29% drop for Pioneer on such a small base to start with, its becoming very difficult to see how Pioneer remains a viable manufacturer even with the outsourcing of the screen manufacturer to Panasonic. I'm really disappointed to say this but I think the "fat lady" may be warming up in the green room.

Same is true for Hitachi and Orion as plasma brands. I doubt any of these 3 brands remain viable as independent Plasma Display brands through the end of 2009.

I think that's what the numbers suggest.

Everybody likes low prices, but these people don't seem to understand the collateral damage that companies like this have caused, and will cause.

I think you might have it backwards. Its not the company that doesn't understand the collateral damage they cause. In fact, WalMart undoubtedly knows the "damage" or change they create. Its the consumers like you and me (and hundreds of millions of other consumers) that shop at WalMart that cause the collateral damage, not the company.

I love the way some people shift the blame from "people in general" to a company. Folks...if you wanted to shop at a local store instead of WalMart, no one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to abandon your local retailer.

The facts are people want to complain about WalMart and all its "evil" practices and then those very same people shop at the very store they were condemning. Very hypocritical if you ask me and nothing more than typical American (I'm one of them) whining that is always trying to find someone else to blame for their own behaviors and practices.

I for one shop at WalMart (and many other local retailers) and don't blame WalMart for anything. They bring to consumers what they ask for and if WalMart didn't deliver it, then some other bright retailer would have. It's this blame everyone else attitude that has gotten us into the economic meltdown we're currently in. No one wants to accept any blame for buying a bigger TV, bigger home, cheaper subprime mortgage, bigger car, bigger boat or anything else they really couldn't afford to start with. Until we start taking our lumps for our behaviors and gain some accountability, we'll have a whole lot of pain to experience ahead of us.

Its time to stop blaming companies for our problems and realize that companies only do what we, their customers ask them or let them do. WalMart is doing nothing more then millions of Americans are asking them to do.

"It's imperative to keep in mind that I NEVER professed MY view on Pioneer's "outlook" because I haven't formed one. What I am maintaining is that pre-determining a company's demise without knowing intimate details about their operations, future strategies, product R&D, etc is foolish.

Until I see evidence that those that are espousing such prognostications HAVE such detail, I'll stand by the aforementioned.

respectfully,
James

It would seem to me you haven't read post#15. Had you done so you could have read "the intimate details about their operations, future strategies, product R&D" in all their glorious detail.

Like dropping their stock dividend to their equity holders, firing their President last Fall for poor performance, like having a stock decline of greater than 80% in 12 months, like laying off their plasma engineers or redeploying them to "growth" areas of the business or transferring them to Panasonic. Like losing net income in every year since 2003 and losing more in fiscal 2009 than was lost in most of the other years combined. Like losing $ in years when "everyone" was making money and now heading into the economic hurricane of the century with a less than successful business model.

I have no better crystal ball than anyone else in this forum however I can read a balance sheet. Is there some specific "evidence" beyond these facts that would prove more useful than the one's I posted in "prognosticating" the future of a company like Pioneer?

Heatwave3: Perfect point.

The same applies to the government. Back in Poland where I grew up we had a right to complain and even set communist party buildings on fire because the government there was imposed by the force of 300,000 Soviet army that was stationed there just to make sure we didn't get any crazy ideas like free elections.

You guys have no such right here because you are free to elect whomever you want. The corrupt and criminally incompetent government we have is exactly what we deserve. Corrupt voters who are incompetent, broke and obese vote for who they are themselves - a government that is incompetent, broke and bloated.

Heatwave3: Perfect point.

The same applies to the government. Back in Poland where I grew up we had a right to complain and even set communist party buildings on fire because the government there was imposed by the force of 300,000 Soviet army that was stationed there just to make sure we didn't get any crazy ideas like free elections.

You guys have no such right here because you are free to elect whomever you want. The corrupt and criminally incompetent government we have is exactly what we deserve. Corrupt voters who are incompetent, broke and obese vote for who they are themselves - a government that is incompetent, broke and bloated.

Spoken like a true American that understands the current economic situation quite well...even if you not an American you should be.

Re Pioneer.

It seems hard for some to accept hardcore facts or numbers regarding the future viability of the company. Just because the company makes the best displays doesn't equate to future viability, especially when those in charge of ensuring the future of the company, seem so clueless.

The days of elitism (no pun intended) are over. That kind of way is what really got this economy in trouble. You can't bank on the AVS enthusiats to get Pioneer across the threshold of viability. The enthusiasm and romantic feeling that some folks may have about Pioneer, do to the fine Kuro plasmas, is not and will not be enough to help them succeed in these most perilous financial times.

Here's a memo to Pioneer, although its probably too late.

Make great plasmas (the best) at various sizes, ala Panasonic and Samsung, at affordable prices, ASAP!

Forget about that wine, cavier and Gucci bag marketing approach, it will not work.

Take a page from Toyota/Lexus, that make great cars at many price points

Re Pioneer.




Make great plasmas (the best) at various sizes, ala Panasonic and Samsung, at affordable prices, ASAP!

Forget about that wine, cavier and Gucci bag marketing approach, it will not work.

Take a page from Toyota/Lexus, that make great cars at many price points

While I enjoy the debate going on here and don't post as often as others but the Gucci analogy is a little off. Are we referring to the $500 handbag or the $10000 collector item that maybe only 10 were ever produced. Also Gucci is an example of a turn around for many years you could purchase their goods everywhere and in the late 80's under Tom Ford they pulled their products from all the stores and made them exclusive to 2 retailers and their own boutiques. Coming from my retail background what's hurting Pio is that although they are superior but to most consumers the price difference isn't justified.

While I enjoy the debate going on here and don't post as often as others but the Gucci analogy is a little off. Are we referring to the $500 handbag or the $10000 collector item that maybe only 10 were ever produced. Also Gucci is an example of a turn around for many years you could purchase their goods everywhere and in the late 80's under Tom Ford they pulled their products from all the stores and made them exclusive to 2 retailers and their own boutiques. Coming from my retail background what's hurting Pio is that although they are superior but to most consumers the price difference isn't justified.

I mentioned Gucci not as an analogy, but as the actual marketing approach of Pioneer. In other words, to market their displays to the wine and cheese crowds, when that's not truly what they are. In truth, Pioneer is a mass market company, they're not a boutique company.

It would seem to me you haven't read post#15. Had you done so you could have read "the intimate details about their operations, future strategies, product R&D" in all their glorious detail.

Like dropping their stock dividend to their equity holders, firing their President last Fall for poor performance, like having a stock decline of greater than 80% in 12 months, like laying off their plasma engineers or redeploying them to "growth" areas of the business or transferring them to Panasonic. Like losing net income in every year since 2003 and losing more in fiscal 2009 than was lost in most of the other years combined. Like losing $ in years when "everyone" was making money and now heading into the economic hurricane of the century with a less than successful business model.

I have no better crystal ball than anyone else in this forum however I can read a balance sheet. Is there some specific "evidence" beyond these facts that would prove more useful than the one's I posted in "prognosticating" the future of a company like Pioneer?


Ok, it's curtains for Pioneer and us dolts who can't read the writing on the wall are simply impervious to economic reason.

There, happy?

After about a dozen posts of rendundancy from 3 people, I give up. I'll admit that I'm a plank for not jumping onboard the "Pioneer farewell tour"...well wait a minute, I take that back, I DID buy a 6020, so maybe I AM onboard afterall.

Awesome!

BTW, I could really care less if Pioneer disappears tomorrow, in all honesty. I know I'll be buying another fantastic television from SOMEONE in 3 years, and I'll bet it won't be a plasma OR LCD.

LOL.

James

I mentioned Gucci not as an analogy, but as the actual marketing approach of Pioneer. In other words, to market their displays to the wine and cheese crowds, when that's not truly what they are. In truth, Pioneer is a mass market company, they're not a boutique company.

Says who, YOU?

Like Honda hey, or maybe Toyota?

What are those idiots doing producing $50,000-$80,000 luxury automobiles? Don't they know they're "MASS MARKET companies"?

Give me a break. You can't make this "stuff" up.

James

So, Chad and Heat, think we've all hijacked this thread sufficiently yet? ;)

It was ostensibly about TVs, I vaguely remember.

LOL.

If you consider 1 post thats barley a paragraph long "Hi-Jacking" the thread, then I would say your being a little over dramatic myself.

Sorry for hi-jacking the thread, I will let the Pioneer Doom and gloom predictions resume.

Re Pioneer.

It seems hard for some to accept hardcore facts or numbers regarding the future viability of the company. Just because the company makes the best displays doesn't equate to future viability, especially when those in charge of ensuring the future of the company, seem so clueless.

The days of elitism (no pun intended) are over. That kind of way is what really got this economy in trouble. You can't bank on the AVS enthusiats to get Pioneer across the threshold of viability. The enthusiasm and romantic feeling that some folks may have about Pioneer, do to the fine Kuro plasmas, is not and will not be enough to help them succeed in these most perilous financial times.

Here's a memo to Pioneer, although its probably too late.

Make great plasmas (the best) at various sizes, ala Panasonic and Samsung, at affordable prices, ASAP!

Forget about that wine, cavier and Gucci bag marketing approach, it will not work.

Take a page from Toyota/Lexus, that make great cars at many price points


I haven't read ONE single person within this thread (including me) that stated or even implied that because Pioneer produces the best display available that it GUARANTEES anything- including profitability or even solvency for that matter.

What I said was that until a manu/model SUPPLANTS them, they have a marketable product.

Trust me, if companies can stay afloat manufacturing $20,000 amplifiers, Pioneer (or any other properly run organization) can make it on big-screen state-of-the-art $5,000 televisions.

Now, no one in their right mind would ever maintain that Pioneer HAS been run effectively, because, quite frankly, they haven't.

That said, believe it or not, this economic downturn won't last a hundred years, and if properly equipped (see a myriad of factors), they could become a viable player through whatever tech as long as it was again an industry leader. Contrary to one poster's belief, Pioneer is THE high-end, wine and cheese display manu. Samsung? Vizio? Panasonic? Sony?

Right.

Do I really need to compile a list of hundreds of corporations left for dead that have enjoyed "remarkable" turn arounds in the last 3 decades? All this is course not even considering the other industry $$$ pools this massive corp has to draw upon if they indeed decide to weather the storm and stay in the display biz for at least the next two years.

Am I asserting this WILL happen? No.

Am I asserting it is a plausible possibilty (even with the dreaded post #15)?

Gasp...yes.


James

Ok, it's curtains for Pioneer and us dolts who can't read the writing on the wall are simply impervious to economic reason.

There, happy?

After about a dozen posts of rendundancy from 3 people, I give up. I'll admit that I'm a plank for not jumping onboard the "Pioneer farewell tour"...well wait a minute, I take that back, I DID buy a 6020, so maybe I AM onboard afterall.

Awesome!

BTW, I could really care less if Pioneer disappears tomorrow, in all honesty. I know I'll be buying another fantastic television from SOMEONE in 3 years, and I'll bet it won't be a plasma OR LCD.

LOL.

James

No offense was meant. I really was looking to read if there's another data point that would be more insightful than the one's shared to date on Pioneer's financial status. I actually hope Pioneer finds a way to pull it out with a new approach that takes a step back and re-establishes a new relationship with the mid to high end consumer. I think it would be a substantial loss to lose the technical prowess that brought us the Kuro and Elite Plasma displays.

No offense was meant. I really was looking to read if there's another data point that would be more insightful than the one's shared to date on Pioneer's financial status. I actually hope Pioneer finds a way to pull it out with a new approach that takes a step back and re-establishes a new relationship with the mid to high end consumer. I think it would be a substantial loss to lose the technical prowess that brought us the Kuro and Elite Plasma displays.


Yeah, I really wasn't taking it too personal, my post was more out of amusement than anything else.

See, I've heard the "death of A/V high end" rigamarole every time the econ goes into a spiral, and it has simply become tired, cliche, and most importantly, inaccurate.

If Pioneer implodes, it will be soley due to their daft market/busness sense, NOT the viability of their product. This point will be reinforced by the inumerable list of exorbitantly-priced, high-end manus that will still remain after this economic rain-storm. Trust me, it WILL happen.

Some here seem to think that the current general econ state means that luxury manus (yes Pioneer displays are luxury items) should simply close up shop.

This is nonsense for a laundry list of mercantile-related reasons that go beyond the scope of this thread.

I won't (and haven't) denied Pioneer's financial troubles. That said, I also haven't pitched in for a tombstone either.

James

LOL.

If you consider 1 post thats barley a paragraph long "Hi-Jacking" the thread, then I would say your being a little over dramatic myself.

Sorry for hi-jacking the thread, I will let the Pioneer Doom and gloom predictions resume.

Pioneer's still in business?? :D

BTW, I could really care less if Pioneer disappears tomorrow, in all honesty. I know I'll be buying another fantastic television from SOMEONE in 3 years, and I'll bet it won't be a plasma OR LCD.

LOL.

James

James, in 2012: "Oh yeah, time to buy a TV... whaaa-aaat? STILL plasmas and LCDs? WTF?!? Where's my reasonably-priced OLED, available at Best Buy, Wal-Mart, and 'other quality electronics stores near you'?!?"

TV Industry: "It's 'right around the corner'... just like it's been for the past several years. Sorry."

James: "#$%@!!!!"


:D

Yeah, I really wasn't taking it too personal, my post was more out of amusement than anything else.

See, I've heard the "death of A/V high end" rigamarole every time the econ goes into a spiral, and it has simply become tired, cliche, and most importantly, inaccurate.

If Pioneer implodes, it will be soley due to their daft market/busness sense, NOT the viability of their product. This point will be reinforced by the inumerable list of exorbitantly-priced, high-end manus that will still remain after this economic rain-storm. Trust me, it WILL happen.

Some here seem to think that the current general econ state means that luxury manus (yes Pioneer displays are luxury items) should simply close up shop.

This is nonsense for a laundry list of mercantile-related reasons that go beyond the scope of this thread.

I won't (and haven't) denied Pioneer's financial troubles. That said, I also haven't pitched in for a tombstone either.

James

Sure seems that way. This "sky-is-falling" Chicken Little predictions of Pioneer's demise is a hoot. I see it's the "Usual Suspects" at it again, and they just keep repeating their same old tired story. Geeez, give me a frack'in break. Everytime something happens in the display market, whether it be LCD tweaking its crappy display products or the economy runs aground, up pops these doom & gloom knuckleheads spouting Crystal Ball speculation that Pioneer just bit the dust. Ain't buy'in. Go sell that BS somewhere else, and give it a rest.

Sure seems that way. This "sky-is-falling" Chicken Little predictions of Pioneer's demise is a hoot. I see it's the "Usual Suspects" at it again, and they just keep repeating their same old tired story. Geeez, give me a frack'in break. Everytime something happens in the display market, whether it be LCD tweaking its crappy display products or the economy runs aground, up pops these doom & gloom knuckleheads spouting Crystal Ball speculation that Pioneer just bit the dust. Ain't buy'in. Go sell that BS somewhere else, and give it a rest.

D-Day is 2/12/09 when Pioneer releases their numbers. We will know thrn what is to become of them.

We all know who is rubbingtheir hands together like evil dweebs just hoping and wishing and praying Pioneer fails.
Laughable at best, especially when those people say it isn't just some personal trip they are on....yet they feel the need to say it over and over and over and over everyday here.

D-Day is 2/12/09 when Pioneer releases their numbers. We will know thrn what is to become of them.

Will we? I know one thing for sure, Pioneer has a better chance of surviving the economy than SED has of becoming a player in the home theater market. :D

Will we? I know one thing for sure, Pioneer has a better chance of surviving the economy than SED has of becoming a player in the home theater market. :D

I know because the Kuro killed off SED:)

We all know who is rubbingtheir hands together like evil dweebs just hoping and wishing and praying Pioneer fails.
Laughable at best, especially when those people say it isn't just some personal trip they are on....yet they feel the need to say it over and over and over and over everyday here.

Its worth saying that while we'll have a much better sense of Pioneer's financial "past", I doubt we'll have tremendous clarity around their future on 2/12. I suspect we'll see the poor business results that have hammered the rest of the manufacturers however I suspect they may not go into great detail about their "go forward" plans for 2009, particularly since they have another quarter left in their fiscal year which ends 3/31. Expect to read in the financial summary about a "poor holiday season" and "dramatic world economic decline" as major factors for their poor 3Q results (while conveniently ignoring the past 4+ years performance when economic conditions were much better).

Expect "crystal clarity" about Pioneer's past but "muddy water" as it relates to the future. If there is to be a dramatic change to Pioneer's plans for the future, it will likely be a joint announcement with whoever they might "partner" with and I highly doubt that will be announced on 2/12.

What will likely be more visible is the likelihood that some type of "partnership" or other change will be in the cards as a result of the 3rd qtr financial performance. General direction on 2/12...yes. Definitive path forward regarding Pioneer's Plasma business...not very likely on the 12th.

We all know who is rubbingtheir hands together like evil dweebs just hoping and wishing and praying Pioneer fails.
Laughable at best, especially when those people say it isn't just some personal trip they are on....yet they feel the need to say it over and over and over and over everyday here.

I don't understand your post. We're discussing hardcore numbers and facts related to the market in this thread. You keep bringing up issues that has more to with an emotional attachment that some might have for Pioneer, which I don't understand.

Let me try disillusion those who might have an emotional attached to the corporate giant Pioneer.

The Billion corporation called "Pioneer" doesn't care about you. The love you show for them is not returned. They wouldn't care if you lost your job and was out the streets.

The same is true for most of these corporations. The list can go on, its not just Pioneer. Its Ford, GM, Sony, Circuit City, JP Morgan, Intel, IBM etc.

Were nothing to them, were nothing buts serfs, or plebians, just like in fuedal times. The only thing they care about is that we buy their products, they don't care if we go into severe and crippling personal debt to do so.

We all know who is rubbingtheir hands together like evil dweebs just hoping and wishing and praying Pioneer fails.
Laughable at best, especially when those people say it isn't just some personal trip they are on....yet they feel the need to say it over and over and over and over everyday here.

They better be careful about what they wish for. You know about the law of unintended consequences!

Those who are lusting after the death of the top tier price setter, are also those who keep lusting for the next flat panel displays, such as SED and OLED.

If manufacturers of current top of the line expensive displays, such as Pioneer, do not survive, then those next generation displays, such as SED and OLED, which would have to command a steep premium price, at introduction, will be far less likely to get developed.

If you are thinking about building a plant to introduce the first large SED, or OLED panels, and you know that you will have to charge even more for them than what Kuro panels currently command, and you see that model has already gone under, would you be more or less inclined to even make the plant investment? I doubt if they would be willing to make such a large gamble.

Even those of us who can not afford a Pioneer Kuro Elite, should really be rooting for Pioneer to survive, just so that there is a high priced product out there that SED, OLED, or..... has a price and quality trend setter, that has maintained a reasonable market price level floor, for them to introduce their new products.

They better be careful about what they wish for. You know about the law of unintended consequences!

Those who are lusting after the death of the top tier price setter, are also those who keep lusting for the next flat panel displays, such as SED and OLED.

If manufacturers of current top of the line expensive displays, such as Pioneer, do not survive, then those next generation displays, such as SED and OLED, which would have to command a steep premium price, at introduction, will be far less likely to get developed.

If you are thinking about building a plant to introduce the first large SED, or OLED panels, and you know that you will have to charge even more for them than what Kuro panels currently command, and you see that model has already gone under, would you be more or less inclined to even make the plant investment? I doubt if they would be willing to make such a large gamble.

Even those of us who can not afford a Pioneer Kuro Elite, should really be rooting for Pioneer to survive, just so that there is a high priced product out there that SED, OLED, or..... has a price and quality trend setter, that has maintained a reasonable market price level floor, for them to introduce their new products.

I think the reality is that many posting here are actually supporters of Pioneer displays, just not the way the business is run. It would be a real loss for all the reasons you suggest above and many more. The reality is that Pioneer has a 4.2% market share of the plasma display business and that's down 29%. Its simply not a viable business model to have a declining, marginal market share.

They need to find a way to bring their tremendous technology to more potential customers. With all due respect to the avid enthusiasts on AVS that support Kuro's, there simply isn't enough of them to support the business. If these enthusiasts really supported the business, they'd be looking for Pioneer to either launch lower grade "Kuro's" that don't cost as much but could be marketed against LCDs or they'd be speaking out for Pioneer to move to more of a main stream retailer approach with broader channels of distribution (and lower prices) than their exclusive dealership can provide to the company and the marketplace today.

Unfortunately that may be the only way for the company to both make money and grow their market share...which they must do if they are to stay in business. All those posting should certainly hope that Pioneer finds a way to stay in business, unfortunately the current business model with no changes, will only accelerate the path they are on to no where from a business perspective.

Mid-luxury brands always have problems when the economy is bad. Ultra-luxury brands can often survive because their clientele is often immune to economic woes. Pioneer is only a mid-luxury brand; which is one of their problems. They don't have the cachet of a Runco and don't have the cost efficiencies of a Panasonic.

I am not fretting though about their technology disappearing though. My guess is that part of their deal with Panasonic gives Panny the first rights to acquire Pioneer's proprietary technology should Pio leave the TV market. Unlike the other mid-luxury brands like Fujitsu and NEC that left the market, Pioneer has real and valuable intellectual property that they can still get something out of.

Panasonic reports earnings

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601080&sid=abk2Uos3eZyw&refer=asia

I think the reality is that many posting here are actually supporters of Pioneer displays, just not the way the business is run. It would be a real loss for all the reasons you suggest above and many more. The reality is that Pioneer has a 4.2% market share of the plasma display business and that's down 29%. Its simply not a viable business model to have a declining, marginal market share.

They need to find a way to bring their tremendous technology to more potential customers. With all due respect to the avid enthusiasts on AVS that support Kuro's, there simply isn't enough of them to support the business. If these enthusiasts really supported the business, they'd be looking for Pioneer to either launch lower grade "Kuro's" that don't cost as much but could be marketed against LCDs or they'd be speaking out for Pioneer to move to more of a main stream retailer approach with broader channels of distribution (and lower prices) than their exclusive dealership can provide to the company and the marketplace today.

Unfortunately that may be the only way for the company to both make money and grow their market share...which they must do if they are to stay in business. All those posting should certainly hope that Pioneer finds a way to stay in business, unfortunately the current business model with no changes, will only accelerate the path they are on to no where from a business perspective.

The relationship between "market share" and profitabiltiy is not necessairly linear.

And that reality is no better exhibited than within the High-End A/V arena.

There are HUNDREDS (perhaps even thousands) of high-end manu's in the genre that have MINISCULE market shares, and yet, remain highly profitable.

Pioneer is multi-facted, multi-marketplace organization. Clearly, they do not need to rely upon the PDP rung for liquidity.

What they NEED is a comprehensive re-structuring that will allow that particular discipline (PDP and/or TV tech in general) to prosper in more than likely, a NEW form. Undoubtedly, this is precisely WHY they outsourced their panel production. THEY DO NOT NECESSARILY NEED TO SELL TENS OF MILLIONS OF TELEVISIONS TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN A "NEW" FORM.

Again, it needs to be understood that businesses can re-orientate themselves to a market (whether locally, nationally, or globally) in a myriad of ways.

It would be wise in my estimation, to first learn HOW and IF Pioneer chooses to pursue this "re-stucturing" in the coming months before building a pine box.


Tomorrow never knows.

James
It's

The relationship between "market share" and profitabiltiy is not necessairly linear.

And that reality is no better exhibited than within the High-End A/V arena.

There are HUNDREDS (perhaps even thousands) of high-end manu's in the genre that have MINISCULE market shares, and yet, remain highly profitable.

Pioneer is multi-facted, multi-marketplace organization. Clearly, they do not need to rely upon the PDP rung for liquidity.

What they NEED is a comprehensive re-structuring that will allow that particular discipline (PDP and/or TV tech in general) to prosper in more than likely, a NEW form. Undoubtedly, this is precisely WHY they outsourced their panel production. THEY DO NOT NECESSARILY NEED TO SELL TENS OF MILLIONS OF TELEVISIONS TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN A "NEW" FORM.

Again, it needs to be understood that businesses can re-orientate themselves to a market (whether locally, nationally, or globally) in a myriad of ways.

It would be wise in my estimation, to first learn HOW and IF Pioneer chooses to pursue this "re-stucturing" in the coming months before building a pine box.


Tomorrow never knows.

James
It's

Well said & accurate. For those knuckleheads that have not only built the pine box, but have bought the shovels and dug the hole, you should re-read Mastermaybe's post about 10 times to let it sink in properly. After you've done that little chore, then go buy a piggy bank and start saving up for the next Pioneer 10G.

The relationship between "market share" and profitabiltiy is not necessairly linear.

And that reality is no better exhibited than within the High-End A/V arena.

There are HUNDREDS (perhaps even thousands) of high-end manu's in the genre that have MINISCULE market shares, and yet, remain highly profitable.


Very true, however you absolutely cannot survive with marginal market share, a market share that's declining AND and an unprofitable business. Not gonna work.

And that's essentially what Pioneer has today.

Consider the news of the day...Panasonic announcing plans to lay off 15,000 workers. I think that puts Pioneer's Plasma plans at risk as well as any future new products coming from Panasonic. "Delays" will be the watch word going forward.

If the market leader - Panasonic is struggling this badly, I really can't imagine what the news will be like from Pioneer next week.

Not sure if anyone saw the news today but Panasonic has announced enormous layoffs worldwide (15,000). I wonder with panasonic making Pioneer's 10G screens what if any impact Panasonics troubles will have on further development/release of a new product for Pioneer.

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/feb2009/gb2009024_251122.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index+-+temp_global+business

Pioneer is multi-facted, multi-marketplace organization. Clearly, they do not need to rely upon the PDP rung for liquidity.

Actually they do. Pioneer is not "Multi-faceted". The company has 2 core businesses...Car Audio and Home Electronics which is primarily composed of PDPs from a revenue standpoint. While Car audio is bigger than Home electronics, losing Home electronics will likely make Pioneer a non-viable global business from a size standpoint.

Heatwave, for you...you need to re-read Mastermaybe's Post #189 at least twenty times and write it down on the back of your hand so you won't forget in between those trips to the kitchen.

Actually they do. Pioneer is not "Multi-faceted". The company has 2 core businesses...Car Audio and Home Electronics which is primarily composed of PDPs from a revenue standpoint. While Car audio is bigger than Home electronics, losing Home electronics will likely make Pioneer a non-viable global business from a size standpoint.

mul·ti·fac·et·ed
adj. Having many facets or aspects.

That's not mine, but Webster's.

It's important to keep in mind that the term is not necessarily indicative of two genres per se, but of a varying product line. In Pioneer's case this includes:

Televisions/displays, DVD & Blu-ray, Navigation, Satellite Radio, Headphones, A/V Receivers, Home Theater Systems, Home CD/Cassette/Turntables, Home Speakers, DVD/Blu-ray Burners, Car Speakers, Car Amplifiers/Receivers, Pro DJ Accessories, Cables Surge Protectors, Personal Electronics, Media Players, Nautical A/V, etc.

Varying product lines like the one above afford corporations (like Pioneer) the ability to allocate/diversify their funds in much of the same manner as an individual (a keen one, anyways) who maintains a diversified retirement portfolio. It is unwise to underestimate the power of such diversification when placed in the hands of (an) experienced market strategist(s). And while Pioneer has undoubtedly shown a past ineptitude in that capacity, it's impossible to determine just yet if such a trend will continue.

James

mul·ti·fac·et·ed
adj. Having many facets or aspects.

That's not mine, but Webster's.

It's important to keep in mind that the term is not necessarily indicative of two genres per se, but of a varying product line. In Pioneer's case this includes:

Televisions/displays, DVD & Blu-ray, Navigation, Satellite Radio, Headphones, A/V Receivers, Home Theater Systems, Home CD/Cassette/Turntables, Home Speakers, DVD/Blu-ray Burners, Car Speakers, Car Amplifiers/Receivers, Pro DJ Accessories, Cables Surge Protectors, Personal Electronics, Media Players, Nautical A/V, etc.

Varying product lines like the one above afford corporations (like Pioneer) the ability to allocate/diversify their funds in much of the same manner as an individual (a keen one, anyways) who maintains a diversified retirement portfolio. It is unwise to underestimate the power of such diversification when placed in the hands of (an) experienced market strategist(s). And while Pioneer has undoubtedly shown a past ineptitude in that capacity, it's impossible to determine just yet if such a trend will continue.

James

My recommendation is to do so business homework because your view of Pioneer is from the limited perspective of a consumer not from a financial or investor perspective. Pioneer is not multi-facted unless you want to characterize "2 facets" as being multi-faceted. In the business world, as even Pioneer describes itself, they have only 2 major businesses (with a relatively modest revenue stream from patent licenses).

Pioneer's Car audio business is their larger business and makes money. Their Home electronics business is dominated from a revenue perspective by their plasma displays and is losing significant money.

By any business definition, Pioneer is a very narrow business with little diversification. While I can understand how a consumer might view Pioneer as "multi-faceted", in the business world they clearly are not, as even Pioneer defines their business.

The financial data below does not include any data from April 2008 to today.
http://pioneer.jp/corp/ir/corp_info/highlights/index-e.html

Reading the gloomy reports concerning Panasonic, I don't know how Pioneer has a remote chance of making it through this downturn.

Beaverton, Ore. — Planar Systems reported Wednesday that sales from its home-theater business unit, which handles the Runco and Planar video display brands, declined 32 percent in its fiscal first quarter, compared to the first quarter of 2008.

The company said sales of high-end home-theater equipment “continues to be negatively impacted by the slowdown in new home construction and a poor overall economic climate.”

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6634660.html

Reading the gloomy reports concerning Panasonic, I don't know how Pioneer has a remote chance of making it through this downturn.

it depends on their cash reserve & their possibility to borrow money. Most big companies in the world are going to have losses, so that's irrelevant. What's important, is how much cash a company has in it's bank account, so to speak.

it depends on their cash reserve & their possibility to borrow money. Most big companies in the world are going to have losses, so that's irrelevant. What's important, is how much cash a company has in it's bank account, so to speak.

Pioneer to end all Plasma TV production

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15753968&posted=1#post15753968

^ Yes. Sadly, it appears that Pioneer is the first victim of the 'Great TV Maker Shakeout of 2009'.

This thread seems to have been prescient, but there is no joy in that when the news is as bad as this. :(

http://www.pcworld.com/article/159085/report_pioneer_to_leave_tv_market_spin_off_dvd_operations.ht ml

[QUOTE=heatwave3;15739469]My recommendation is to do so business homework because your view of Pioneer is from the limited perspective of a consumer not from a financial or investor perspective. Pioneer is not multi-facted unless you want to characterize "2 facets" as being multi-faceted. In the business world, as even Pioneer describes itself, they have only 2 major businesses (with a relatively modest revenue stream from patent licenses).

Pioneer's Car audio business is their larger business and makes money. Their Home electronics business is dominated from a revenue perspective by their plasma displays and is losing significant money.

By any business definition, Pioneer is a very narrow business with little diversification. While I can understand how a consumer might view Pioneer as "multi-faceted", in the business world they clearly are not, as even Pioneer defines their business.


Ha, LOL. If you only knew how much "business" homework I've done.

Anyways, for about the 186th time, I (or anyone else, that I'm aware) never denied the possibility of this day. I merely cautioned to exercise a bit of patience and wait for Pioneer to announce how they planned to proceed.

So, I'm sure the band of Nostradamus' will now come forth and claim one of the emptiest "victories" one could ever imagine.

Really, it's just a *hit day for those who enjoy top-level video, that's all.

James

Pioneer to end all Plasma TV production

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15753968&posted=1#post15753968

So I guess the cash reserve weren't good enough.

Still, they survive. They may sell their technology or be back in a few years, who knows?

So I guess the cash reserve weren't good enough.

Still, they survive. They may sell their technology or be back in a few years, who knows?

As I have said many times on the AVS forum, which stands for Audio Video Science, that Pioneer was going to fall or come to an end. Many got mad at me, call me all kinds of names, called me troll and all of that. But I predicated this end for Pioneer.

So I guess the cash reserve weren't good enough.

Still, they survive. They may sell their technology or be back in a few years, who knows?

Based on Moody's debt downgrade 2 days ago, I'm not so sure they survive. Won't know until their financials are released on the 12th.

As I have said many times on the AVS forum, which stands for Audio Video Science, that Pioneer was going to fall or come to an end. Many got mad at me, call me all kinds of names, called me troll and all of that. But I predicated this end for Pioneer.

Agree completely. Stick a fork in them, they are done. As good as Pioneer's TVs may be, their public filings indicate that they can not make a profit on their TVs. Pioneer will be forced to take actions to conserve cash and try to survive and this will likely mean selling off or closing unprofitable businesses. Only the strongest and largest TV makers are going to make it out of this recession.

This prediction has nothing to do with the quality of Pioneer's TVs and I have no horse in this race. I'm basing my prediction on 20 years of finance experience and a slow read of Pioneer's public filings of their IR site.

I just saw the post under the Plasma section that Pioneer has announced that it is ceasing TV production. My prediction above looks a little stupid now. Where are all the fan boys who argued for multiple posts that there is no way that Pioneer could cease making TVs because Pioneer is a "multi faceted" company that makes great TVs.


Heatwave, Auditor55 and a few other understand how business works and their posts look pretty smart with the recent news.

Given today's events, I think this excerpt from the original article bears re-reading:

Industry executives expect only a handful of companies – Sony, Samsung, Panasonic Corp., Sharp Co., LG Electronics Co. and Toshiba Corp. – to survive the latest downturn.

The others, they say, may be forced to either pull out of the TV business, or join forces with a surviving entity.


They sure weren't kidding. :(

Given today's events, I think this excerpt from the original article bears re-reading:

Industry executives expect only a handful of companies – Sony, Samsung, Panasonic Corp., Sharp Co., LG Electronics Co. and Toshiba Corp. – to survive the latest downturn.

The others, they say, may be forced to either pull out of the TV business, or join forces with a surviving entity.


They sure weren't kidding. :(
I haven't heard much from Hitachi and Mitsubishi about their current situation. No news is good news?

Anyways, for about the 186th time, I (or anyone else, that I'm aware) never denied the possibility of this day. I merely cautioned to exercise a bit of patience and wait for Pioneer to announce how they planned to proceed.

So, I'm sure the band of Nostradamus' will now come forth and claim one of the emptiest "victories" one could ever imagine.

Well its not like you needed to be a rocket scientist to see that one coming.

I haven't heard much from Hitachi and Mitsubishi about their current situation. No news is good news?

I doubt it.

I haven't heard much from Hitachi and Mitsubishi about their current situation. No news is good news?

TOKYO (Reuters) - Hitachi Ltd (6501.T), Japan's biggest electronics maker, posted a quarterly loss on struggling chip operations and a slump in demand for electronics products, and reaffirmed its forecast for a $7.8 billion annual loss that would be the biggest ever by a Japanese manufacturer.

http://www.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idUSTRE51211C20090203

Sharp's (http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2009/02/06/technology/tech-us-sharp.html?ref=technology) losing also.

Sharp Q3 in Red, Sees First Ever Annual Loss

I doubt it.

Laservue has been pretty much a bust for MITS and has been taken off the market "temporarily" for some fine tuning. Yea, and VHS is coming back also:rolleyes:

Laservue has been pretty much a bust for MITS and has been taken off the market "temporarily" for some fine tuning. Yea, and VHS is coming back also:rolleyes:


Yeah....like there was ever any chance that folks were gonna spend $7000 for a rear projection tv that's 8-10" thick. Were they out of their minds? I don't care if their lasers could burn the hair of a gnat's *ss. That product was a bust before it ever flashed its first "beam". I think they were just trying to figure out a way to push thousands of rear projection chassis they had sitting in the warehouse.

posts deleted

if you cannot keep the discussion on a professional level, please don't post here

I think Heatwave was fairly prescient on this subject, and appreciate his analysis.

In retrospect, more of us should've seen this coming. Pioneer had been losing money on its TV operations for far too long.

Throw in the big global economic downturn on top of that, and the writing really was on the wall, for anyone who cared to read it.
.

I think Heatwave was fairly prescient on this subject, and appreciate his analysis.

In retrospect, more of us should've seen this coming. Pioneer had been losing money on its TV operations for far too long.

Throw in the big global economic downturn on top of that, and the writing really was on the wall, for anyone who cared to read it.
.

I hate to see Pioneer leaving the Plasma market. Their engineering dept. was the best, but their sales and marketing dept. was one of the worst.

It was not hard to see that the odds were against they staying in the Plasma business, and the global economic crisis was the last straw.

I wrote the following on 4/10/08.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13607443&highlight=#post13607443


"If enough people, that are now in the market for a Pioneer Plasma, defer until the 10g comes out, then there is a strong likelihood that the 10g may get canceled.

Pioneer has had four consecutive years of poor sales and financial results in their Plasma division. If they have another bad year, because people decided to hold of until next year, then there will be great pressure from the major stockholders to abandon the plasma business.

Which would you rather have, a 9G or no future Pioneer Plasmas at all.

If they do not move a good amount of product this year, and stop the downward spiral, it will become very hard for their management to justify staying in the game."

I hate to see Pioneer leaving the Plasma market. Their engineering dept. was the best, but their sales and marketing dept. was one of the worst.

It was not hard to see that the odds were against they staying in the Plasma business, and the global economic crisis was the last straw.

I wrote the following on 4/10/08.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13607443&highlight=#post13607443


"If enough people, that are now in the market for a Pioneer Plasma, defer until the 10g comes out, then there is a strong likelihood that the 10g may get canceled.

Pioneer has had four consecutive years of poor sales and financial results in their Plasma division. If they have another bad year, because people decided to hold of until next year, then there will be great pressure from the major stockholders to abandon the plasma business.

Which would you rather have, a 9G or no future Pioneer Plasmas at all.

If they do not move a good amount of product this year, and stop the downward spiral, it will become very hard for their management to justify staying in the game."

Greenland...nice Nostradamus-like call. I bet not too many folks took very kindly to the insight at the time.

Greenland...nice Nostradamus-like call. I bet not too many folks took very kindly to the insight at the time.

I did...! ;)

Let change your name to heatstradamus! LOL!

Chris

Given today's events, I think this excerpt from the original article bears re-reading:

Industry executives expect only a handful of companies – Sony, Samsung, Panasonic Corp., Sharp Co., LG Electronics Co. and Toshiba Corp. – to survive the latest downturn.

The others, they say, may be forced to either pull out of the TV business, or join forces with a surviving entity.


They sure weren't kidding. :(

What would be nice if we only had Samsung and Panasonic...j/k :)Only two choices for consumers. I guess the forum would be bored to death to discuss about anything.

Chris

I did...! ;)

Let change your name to heatstradamus! LOL!

Chris

Good to know there were a few open minded people willing to listen to facts that weren't blinded by passion to a TV.

Greenland...nice Nostradamus-like call. I bet not too many folks took very kindly to the insight at the time.

Actually, it was mostly ignored, I guess because my projection was for what could happen in 2009, so people were not feeling any sense of immediate threat to their favorite brand. One person did challenge my comments and I did post a rebutal to his remarks.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13609759&highlight=#post13609759


On the other hand, Vashti was pondering over if she should wait for the 10G, and she posted that my comments had convinced her to not wait.



Later on last year she purchased an Elite, has had it calibrated, and says she is very pleased with it.

their sales and marketing dept. was one of the worst.

I told you that before. However, it was good earlier on, but eventually it caught up to them. When they decided to take the Gucci approach to sales and marketing of a commodity (a soon to be obsolete one at that) like plasma, that was the begining of the end of them. I foretold it.

I told you that before. However, it was good earlier on, but eventually it caught up to them. When they decided to take the Gucci approach to sales and marketing of a commodity (a soon to be obsolete one at that) like plasma, that was the begining of the end of them. I foretold it.

step up to the plate and tell us exactly when plasma will become obsolete rather than keep repeating it as you've been predicting this for over a year now. :rolleyes:

I told you that before. However, it was good earlier on, but eventually it caught up to them. When they decided to take the Gucci approach to sales and marketing of a commodity (a soon to be obsolete one at that) like plasma, that was the begining of the end of them. I foretold it.
Your arrogance is beyond belief. As said before, multiple things have to happen before Pioneer will pull the full plug on the PDP business for good. For those who have "asserted" to be all knowing on this subject, you only have two more days to wait and determine if the your predictions are accurate. The bashing that this company has taken, specifically from a few posters, is getting quite old. Especially those who profess to be clairvoyant. The market, as we know it, will always determine those who survive.

Your arrogance is beyond belief.

The prediction industry is a multi-billion-dollar business. Like the stock market gurus, global warming fanatics, futures traders, demographic planners, etc. Auditor55 likes making predictions, too. You may disagree with what he says but what makes him arrogant?

Tone of his posts, i.e. "I foretold it.", as if his opinion carries more weight than others. You only have to go to other posts to see that his rants are the same.

Tone of his posts, i.e. "I foretold it.", as if his opinion carries more weight than others. You only have to go to other posts to see that his rants are the same.

If this is your test for arrogance then you and Gore aren't friends.

I find it hilarious how some of these guys are acting like they had some kinda crystal ball into the future when it comes to pioneer stopping production of its plasmas.

I mean, it doesn't take psychic abilities to think that a company that has never made a penny of profit on thier plasmas might end up having to stop making them. LOL.
Especially with the economy the way it is.

Now, your "crystal ball" is 100% accurate. Have a great evening!

Your arrogance is beyond belief. As said before, multiple things have to happen before Pioneer will pull the full plug on the PDP business for good. For those who have "asserted" to be all knowing on this subject, you only have two more days to wait and determine if the your predictions are accurate. The bashing that this company has taken, specifically from a few posters, is getting quite old. Especially those who profess to be clairvoyant. The market, as we know it, will always determine those who survive.

I'm not being arrogant. However, it seems to me that you are somewhat in denial about this news.

step up to the plate and tell us exactly when plasma will become obsolete rather than keep repeating it as you've been predicting this for over a year now. :rolleyes:

I give plasma another 3 years at best. That's pushing it too.

Tone of his posts, i.e. "I foretold it.", as if his opinion carries more weight than others. You only have to go to other posts to see that his rants are the same.

Perhaps he's more 'Nostradumbass' than Nostradamus? ;)

Tone of his posts, i.e. "I foretold it.", as if his opinion carries more weight than others. You only have to go to other posts to see that his rants are the same.

Even if there is a "tone" personally I figure he earned it. He said it forever pointing to his facts regarding their business model, every time he got hammered by the fan boys, in the end he was right and still there seems to be disbelief. I personally believe the 9G Kuros were the best FP on the market but the sales/marketing, price point and the global turn-down killed them. I also believe that assuming there is still a significant market for TVs for the next 2 years their will be TVs priced at or below the 9G price point which will meet or exceed the 9Gs capabilities.

please get back on topic

I give plasma another 3 years at best. That's pushing it too.

so then in your opinion it's not dead and we will not see any more posts of you boasting that claim. Now if you want to discuss a dead technology, we can always talk about SED. :D

so then in your opinion it's not dead and we will not see any more posts of you boasting that claim. Now if you want to discuss a dead technology, we can always talk about SED.

SED is like Bruce Willis in 'The Sixth Sense'... it doesn't know it's dead. :D

Yeesh, another plasma set maker bites the dust... Vizio just announced they're dropping out of plasma:

http://gadgetwise.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/11/another-manufacturer-drops-plasma/


A thank you to Joedelf for the heads-up.

Apparently also, NEC is dropping out of LCDs (I don't think they make plasmas?).

TV makers, true to the article in post #1, are dropping like flies. :(
.

Sure looks to me like Auditor55 is righter and righter.

Sure looks to me like Auditor55 is righter and righter.

Yup! Yup! You Betcha! That is why he was very wise to purchase his SED display, and is enjoying watching it every day. He has persuaded most people to follow his lead and purchase a SED set now. You betcha!

Sure looks to me like Auditor55 is righter and righter.

Auditor is the proverbial broken watch that's right twice a day. :rolleyes:

Heatwave seemed to understand much better the underlying causes.

Auditor is the proverbial broken watch that's right twice a day. :rolleyes:
.

He reminds me more of a 24 hour Cuckoo Clock. It pops our regulary to spout the same message that never changes. It is always fun watching people shouting questions at the Cuckoo Clock, such as: When did you ever see a SED display, and of course the Cuckoo Clock is incapable of answering, and just keep repeating it's very limited declarations.

The one thing that the Cuckoo Clock has over the Looney SED Head, is that the Cuckoo Clock is more rational.

This will continue to happen.
This economy can no longer sustain things that don't sell very well.
And unfortunatly, with all thats against plasma from out-of-date burn-in paranoia to salesmen recommending LCD 3-to-1, This trend will continue.

I think they just knew how it is. this quote is totally correct,

"There were several reasons behind the decision, Ms. Newsome said. Plasma sets simply don’t show as well in big box stores, which are typically lit by bright fluorescent and halogen lights, giving consumers the impression that LCD TVs have a more exciting picture."

Chad is right on the money. Bad economy, ill-informed salespeople, bad-for-plasma viewing conditions on the store floor... it's quite a devastating 'perfect storm'.

Bad economy, ill-informed salespeople, bad-for-plasma viewing conditions on the store floor... it's quite a devastating 'perfect storm'.

One of the best single-sentence summaries. Auditor55 knows it, too, so his predictions are as solid as your summary.

Chad is right on the money. Bad economy, ill-informed salespeople, bad-for-plasma viewing conditions on the store floor... it's quite a devastating 'perfect storm'.

Add in the artificial torch mode that many LCD's are set to in the stores that draws the consumers attention. Once both sets are properly adjusted the differences are very marginal until one goes off axis.

Sure looks to me like Auditor55 is righter and righter.

lmao! thanks for that post ramazur as that has to be one of the funniest posts on here.

:D:D:D

lmao! thanks for that post ramazur as that has to be one of the funniest posts on here.

:D:D:D


Have you seen Auditor's latest argument? He is on all sides of every issue, so of course he can always point to what he accidently got right. He is like the guy at the racetrack who touts every horse in the race, and then brags about how he predicted the winner.

Here is Auditor making the exact opposite argument, to what he has been making about why SED is needed.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15808437&highlight=#post15808437

you guys can't keep doing this

remember challenge the post...never the poster?

this is getting to be too much

Add in the artificial torch mode that many LCD's are set to in the stores that draws the consumers attention. Once both sets are properly adjusted the differences are very marginal until one goes off axis.

If the "artificial torch mode" in LCD screens "suckers in" so many buyers at BB then why don't PDP makers add one too just for sales purposes?

Oh yeah I forgot, plasma screens are too dim for "torch mode". Sounds like a brightness limitation. That is like a political campaign tactic, use your opponents strength and turn it into a weakness.