I just ordered the 5020. I need to see if this will remedy my gripes with the motion on the A650 or confirm its just part of the deal at 1080P with 50" and up. I will hook up both to my sat box at 1080i and then try some BRD's. I will then post my novice opinion in the hopes of offering some guidance to those with sensitive eyes like myself. I am not a fan of either tech so this will be an unbiased review. Will post next week. May bring my dads 52W4100 over next week as well.

I had a 52a750 and a Elite 151FD

Returned the 52a750 because it was too small - loved the picture just not the screen size. Enter the 151FD - returned it because im just not a plasma guy. I despise the PLAIN look for a 6k TV. Now the plasma did give a SMOOTHER picture... but id take an LCD over a plasma any day.

Ya know, I bought into all the hype that the KURO - elite nonetheless - was the TV of all TV's. I tried to force myself to like the immage. Im going back to LCD

Edit: What gripes do you have with the Motion? The jittery motion?

Yeah, and there are a ton of HD shows that are just too blurry to even watch.

Topper. What a luxury to be able to test those side-by-side. I have a feeling you'll like the perceived sharpness of the 5020 from a reasonable distance. A friend of mine has a 111FD and it's very nice in a dark environment. Just turn off the lights and don't get too close :) Are you a plasma guy or don't care?

why would you buy the 650? it has glare and is about as good as a mid grade plasma. the pioneer will have significantly less motion problems, it will much better accuracy and color range, glare will probably be less too.

Yeah, and there are a ton of HD shows that are just too blurry to even watch.

Yeah, I think it has deinterlacing problems with 1080i sources. The same show, say 24, looks much less blurry on DVD than on 1080i HD cable.

I am a $2000 TV should not be a down grade guy. I don't care if it's LCD or Plasma. I just don't like the fact that 25% of the content that I watch on HD channels now look like that movie the ring where the little girl is comming out of the well. As I have said in other posts, some things look awesome but some things are about 150% worse than what my 42PX50U displayed.

Some of you guys are strict BR or high quality content guys but this is my primary set and I like to watch what I want when I want. Not what I can when its acceptable.

Its also funny how after a couple weeks, I now notice alot more noise that I hadnt before. I still have not ruled out the fact that I may have got an off set.

At any rate, I will know if it's me or the TV next week. If I see that the plasma is the same or worse than the A650, I will have zero hesitation to post that.

One thing I can say is that PS3 1080P games look and play like butter on this set. The A650 has been flawless in this regard. It is also very pleasing when the content is quality. I feel that if you feed this beast quality HD content, it is very sexy and as far as the gloss screen is concerned, I gotta tell ya, it doesnt bother me at all. No more than my panny plasma did. This set is actually very sexy even when it is off.
It's the below average HD content that this set seems to suck copius amounts of pond water on. Unfortunatley, much of what I watch is below average HD content and I can say that the A650 (maybe all LCD, maybe all 1080P 50" plus sets) suck it in this area. The funny thing is, it's not half bad on SD.

The flashlighting and slight clouding don't really do it for me but the blacks are pretty darn good aside from that. I will save further comments for when I have these bad boys side by side.

FYI It seems to stand to reason that this whole 120hz but not really thing is the whole problem. Yeah, its the cats pajamas when you have a perfect feed, but when you have hardware hypothesizing frames on anything but a perfect feed, you are asking for trouble mister. I think that is exactly responsible for the crazy movement issues. If its not making its "fake frames" based on razor sharp detail, the result will be a muddy mess worse than what would have been displayed without it.

if you like your picture to be overly bright and washed out. not to mention motion and pixelization problems than by all means enjoy your &^*tt7 LCD

To be fair, I will also reiterate my test from two weeks ago. I had the 85U running next to the A650 in my living room. The 85U had more realism but when it came to pans with a quality HD show on, the A650 killed the 85U hands down with AMP on low. I am talking clear pan on the A650 to really really bad motion on the 85U. That is where I hope the Kuro will pick up the slack the 85U had. When the content was less than stellar HD, the 85u started to run away with it.

Also, the whole dim dirty white thing became a bit funny because once you apply the calibration settings from this forum, it brought the A650 down in brightness to look exactly like the plasma did out of the box.

I had a 52a750 and a Elite 151FD

Returned the 52a750 because it was too small - loved the picture just not the screen size. Enter the 151FD - returned it because im just not a plasma guy. I despise the PLAIN look for a 6k TV. Now the plasma did give a SMOOTHER picture... but id take an LCD over a plasma any day.

Ya know, I bought into all the hype that the KURO - elite nonetheless - was the TV of all TV's. I tried to force myself to like the immage. Im going back to LCD

Edit: What gripes do you have with the Motion? The jittery motion?

I understand that the 151FD wasn't for you, but what were your picture settings? How long did you have it for during break-in? What intrigues you more about LCD?

Just curious as to why you gave up early on the 151FD...

Chris

I just ordered the 5020. I need to see if this will remedy my gripes with the motion on the A650 or confirm its just part of the deal at 1080P with 50" and up. I will hook up both to my sat box at 1080i and then try some BRD's. I will then post my novice opinion in the hopes of offering some guidance to those with sensitive eyes like myself. I am not a fan of either tech so this will be an unbiased review. Will post next week. May bring my dads 52W4100 over next week as well.

If you want to be extra cool, shoot and post SOME PICS of your comparo.

Of all three sets. It should be.... glorious. :D

Yeah, thats a good idea. I will def take pics. It's 5:00AM and I just woke up worrying about tv's lol. Thats pretty pathetic. Being a man has it downs sides. lol

I woke up thinking:
1. Will I be ok with the dimmness compared to the A650?
2. Should I have gotten the 800u?
3. Will the lack of control bother me?

Basically the same questions everyone else deals with, just not when they should be sleeping! lol

I am glad it has aleady shipped so I can't stop it. Plus Amazon is pretty good about full refunds if it comes to that.

******** Hey, any of you guys ever see a verticle line of dots running up and down your screen in a single file row at about 10 inches from the right? I have seen it three times in the last two days. I was convinced its the feed but..... I will pay closer attention to channel and such. Maybe I do have a bad A650 after all? Its not individual pixels. Up close it looks as they are part of the broadcast and not that well defined.

I will be very curious about the results and look forward to this thread continuing after the comparison. My next TV will also be my main TV that I watch some HD content, but mostly, it just regular non HD content. I just want to buy a good TV that I don’t have to tweak every time I have a different video source. HD. SD, DVD, etc.

To be fair, I will also reiterate my test from two weeks ago. I had the 85U running next to the A650 in my living room. The 85U had more realism but when it came to pans with a quality HD show on, the A650 killed the 85U hands down with AMP on low. I am talking clear pan on the A650 to really really bad motion on the 85U.

That's the reason I didn't return my 650 for a Panasonic, it seemed to have motion problems as well, in store - and the Kuro next to it did not.

I'd definitely buy a 5020 today with those prices, but my plan is to give the 650 to inlaws this year. Otherwise I'd sell the 650 and get the 5020.

while your throwing money around to compare, get a high-end DLP or LCD Front Projector thrown to say a 100" screen. for us all to analyze ;)

That's the reason I didn't return my 650 for a Panasonic, it seemed to have motion problems as well, in store - and the Kuro next to it did not.

I'd definitely buy a 5020 today with those prices, but my plan is to give the 650 to inlaws this year. Otherwise I'd sell the 650 and get the 5020.

Motion problems? I now own both an 850U and a 5020. I cannot see how anyone in there right mind has issues with either one of these TV's. There is no LCD on the market that can complete with the jaw dropping picture quaility of either the Panny or the Kuro.

I was in the same boat for years. I hated plasma. But, now that I own the technology, Man there is no way in hell Id take any current LCD on the market over a Kuro or Panny.

I started a thread comparing the 5020FD to the 850U.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1112966

There is no LCD on the market that can complete with the jaw dropping picture quaility of either the Panny or the Kuro.

And yet somehow the market is mostly LCD these days. ;)

Only being a little sarcastic. Plasmas r cool, but I like good LCDs too, even if some plasma partisans sincerely believe that there is no such thing.

Now when I say the A650 killed the panny in panning, it was just that, panning. In this scene the A650 kept the faces quite detailed, whereas the panny {85U mind you) was a mess. I was feeding both the same source and even swapped the input cables to confirm this. Now I did not keep the panny near long enough to compare motion in general and to see if the matrix look went away with general motion on the panny. This is where I hope I see the difference. We will see on Monday when the Kuro is supposed ot be here. Who knows what we may learn about these sets.

I will provide my observations on the following:

Color on a basic level- I can deal with slight color variations and expect both sets to look "good"
Flesh tones- More improtant to me than color in general
Blacks and uniformity- Would love to ditch the "slight" clouding and flashlights
sound - could really care less but Ill let ya know
realism and flow of motion- This is the big one for me. I will break this into different categories such as pans, general motion smoothness, close up detail while in motion.
And depth of field.

I will not be using any gear or special calibration tools. This will simply be a review by an ordinary but picky guy using a combination of CNET and popular forum calibration settings.

Peace

Im looking forward to your review. I am getting my 650 any day now to replace my 5084 that Sammy is replacing. One thing that concerns me is the vertical lines you talked about. Youre not the first one Ive read about this.

Really? I have not heard of the vert lines before. Interesting. I will also be reviewing HD content a bit more extensively than "HD looks great". I will judge High quality HD feed, Low quality HD content as well as SD. It seems that many judge HD performance on BR quality and SD with nothing in between. I will also throw in some PS3 1080P comments.

And yet somehow the market is mostly LCD these days. ;)

Only being a little sarcastic. Plasmas r cool, but I like good LCDs too, even if some plasma partisans sincerely believe that there is no such thing.

No worries. I still have a love for LCD's believe it or not. I owned several of them. For now, I'm happy with Plasma technology, and believe it or not, I'm shocked to hear myself say that.


Chris

I had a 52a750 and a Elite 151FD

Returned the 52a750 because it was too small - loved the picture just not the screen size. Enter the 151FD - returned it because im just not a plasma guy. I despise the PLAIN look for a 6k TV. Now the plasma did give a SMOOTHER picture... but id take an LCD over a plasma any day.

Ya know, I bought into all the hype that the KURO - elite nonetheless - was the TV of all TV's. I tried to force myself to like the immage. Im going back to LCD

Edit: What gripes do you have with the Motion? The jittery motion?

No offense, but I don't believe you.

I understand that the 151FD wasn't for you, but what were your picture settings? How long did you have it for during break-in? What intrigues you more about LCD?

Just curious as to why you gave up early on the 151FD...

Chris

I ran the breakin images via thumb drive for the first 150 hours. Purchased ControlCal and activated the ISFcc day/night modes and used DNICE settings - which I tweaked a little to my liking.

I simply dont like how a Plasma immage looks. It looks to plain for me. I like the brighter look of an LCD. Ok now dont get me wrong... I dont put that darn thing in TORCH mode where I have to wear shades since I have it set so bright :D

I like the soap opera 3d look of the 120HZ LCD's, the brightness, and the POP that is associated with LCD - the plasma guys say thats fake, overly saturated, not how its meant to look etc. But I like it - especially once its calibrated. I purchased the 151FD knowing that it was going to be a different picture. I ignored the crappy picture I saw in the stores and took it home to give it a try. It just was not for me. The colors were amazing, but to me they just did not pop.

I never really like the "should I buy an LCD or Plasma ...." type threads. I say buy what looks good to you, and leave it at that.

And yet somehow the market is mostly LCD these days. ;)

Only being a little sarcastic. Plasmas r cool, but I like good LCDs too, even if some plasma partisans sincerely believe that there is no such thing.

Ya it is funny how most tv's are plasma. you know cause there's a samsung 400 450 550 580 630 650 750 850 950 960;

The funny thing is each on gets better... Plasmas don't suck. that's why you don't see 10 different ones of a better level of each brand. maybe 3 or 4, 5 at most. which is normally bells and whistles. So yea, there's more LCD's on the market.

No offense, but I don't believe you.

What makes that so hard to believe? I bought a TV (bought the Sammy from amazon when they included the free blu-ray dvd player) .. returned it because it was too small. Bought another TV (151FD from Best Buy since they basically gave me the same price one of the forum sponsors did) and returned it because I simply dont like how it looks.

Its not like I came in here and told the OP that plasma is the work of the devil, that its sooooo inferior to lcd. I simply told him my experience.

No offense, but I don't believe you.

I do NOT believe him either. Plain look? There is no way in HELL the picture on the Kuro is plain. The picure is crisp, detailed, jaw dropping and an image that give most people goosebumps. Anyone who actually owns one will tell you that. I thought the same thing about plasma's until I actually own one. Now, I'm not saying LCD sucks or anything like that. I'm just be realistic and I'll bet my Kuro that it is a total lie.

That post could do down as one of the most fabricated things I've ever read. I'm not telling people to like the Kuro. I'm just saying I've never ever heard someone who actually owned the TV calling it plain

I do NOT believe him either. Plain look? There is no way in HELL the picture on the Kuro is plain. The picure is crisp, detailed, jaw dropping and an image that give most people goosebumps. Anyone who actually owns one will tell you that. I thought the same thing about plasma's until I actually own one. Now, I'm not saying LCD sucks or anything like that. I'm just be realistic and I'll bet my Kuro that it is a total lie.

Man you guys are something else. You are OBVIOUSLY a fan of plasma - I am not.

I did not have anywhere near the same experience that you had with your Kuro. Matter of fact only 1 person in my household liked how it looked over the LCD.

I cant believe I feel like I need to prove to some people that I infact had a Kuro and just did not like it

Edit: I suppose I could scan a copy of my receipt and link it on photobucket?

What makes that so hard to believe? I bought a TV (bought the Sammy from amazon when they included the free blu-ray dvd player) .. returned it because it was too small. Bought another TV (151FD from Best Buy since they basically gave me the same price one of the forum sponsors did) and returned it because I simply dont like how it looks.

Its not like I came in here and told the OP that plasma is the work of the devil, that its sooooo inferior to lcd. I simply told him my experience.


And all I'm saying is if you truly owned the Kuro, you would NEVER EVER call it plain. I've had SEVERAL high end LCD's in my home. I have nothing against LCD's. I'm not pushing plamsa's either. I just know for a FACT that plain is not a word to describe the TV. That's all.

I don't need any proof. My gf who can barely turn on a TV saw the Kuro and got chills.

And all I'm saying is if you truly owned the Kuro, you would NEVER EVER call it plain. I've had SEVERAL high end LCD's in my home. I have nothing against LCD's. I'm not pushing plamsa's either. I just know for a FACT that plain is not a word to describe the TV. That's all.

You must have my eyes :rolleyes:

Ok, maybe plain was a bad word to use... either way - TO ME - the image did not pop in a way that would satisfy me.

Edit: and MY gf like the LCD look over the Kuro ... so what does that prove? Nothing

I'm not a fan of any technology. I buy what looks the best. I'm just saying I'm glad your happy with your purchase, but I've NEVER EVER had anyone return the TV.

I'm not a fan of any technology. I buy what looks the best. I'm just saying I'm glad your happy with your purchase, but I've NEVER EVER had anyone return the TV.

LMAO now we are getting somewhere

This is again the reason I HATE the Plasma vs LCD threads. You have your LCD guys and you have your Plasma guys - young eyes, old eyes, this, that, etc. Buy what looks good to YOU and leave it at that.

You must have my eyes :rolleyes:

Ok, maybe plain was a bad word to use... either way - TO ME - the image did not pop in a way that would satisfy me.

Edit: and MY gf like the LCD look over the Kuro ... so what does that prove? Nothing


I love a TV that pops. I truly do. I don't mind having my settings a bit brighter than most people on this board would think is torch mode. So, I too never thought I'd like Plasmas for that reason. But the Kuro picture POPS more than my last SONY LCD XBR5!!! That's why its so hard for me to believe you. I've calibrated my TV to what Plasma guys seem to think is great. Same holds true with LCD settings from this board. I never like them.

I love a TV that pops. I truly do. I don't mind having my settings a bit brighter than most people on this board wouldn't like. So, I too never thought I'd like Plasmas for that reason. But the Kuro picture POPS more than my last SONY LCD XBR5!!! That's why its so hard for me to believe you.

Brother I REALLY REALLY tried to get into the Elite Kuro. I mean I bought the set knowing I just was not a plasma guy. I posted in the Elite owners thread for a while, even after I picked it up asking what I could do to make it brighter and more vivid. I picked up ControlCal on the assumption that the ISFcc modes were going to make it "x" brighter and more vivid. Even with DNICE settings I was still trying wanting more. I really pumped up the Color and short of paying someone for a professional calibration... I just did not want to shell out anymore money on the set if I was just going to return it :(

Edit: I dig the 120hz set... I absolutely love the soap opera look. Thats probably why the Kuro was just not for me

And for shits and giggles, go ahead and scan the receipt and post it. Not that I want to be proven wrong. Not that I necessarily don't believe you. I just want to meet the man who returned a Kuro.

Brother I REALLY REALLY tried to get into the Elite Kuro. I mean I bought the set knowing I just was not a plasma guy. I posted in the Elite owners thread for a while, even after I picked it up asking what I could do to make it brighter and more vivid. I picked up ControlCal on the assumption that the ISFcc modes were going to make it "x" brighter and more vivid. Even with DNICE settings I was still trying wanting more. I really pumped up the Color and short of paying someone for a professional calibration... I just did not want to shell out anymore money on the set if I was just going to return it :(

Then I respect your decision. Me, nor Plasma guys, or Even LCD guys should try to convince you what you like. Enjoy your new TV to the fullest.

I'm just at a loss for words. After seeing the Kuro pic quality and even my Panny pic qualitym (watching lost right now) it's so hard for me to understand why anyone would return it.

BLT

And for shits and giggles, go ahead and scan the receipt and post it. Not that I want to be proven wrong. Not that I necessarily don't believe you. I just want to meet the man who returned that Kuro.

LOL sure thing.. ill do it now and pm you the link - since we cant talk price in here I suppose that also means posting images with prices ;)

Ya it is funny how most tv's are plasma.[you mean LCD?] you know cause there's a samsung 400 450 550 580 630 650 750 850 950 960;

The funny thing is each on gets better... Plasmas don't suck. that's why you don't see 10 different ones of a better level of each brand. maybe 3 or 4, 5 at most. which is normally bells and whistles. So yea, there's more LCD's on the market.

Actually, I was talking about marketshare. LCDs have it, plasmas not so much.

But you're right that there's a lot more LCD models than plasma models, that's true. Probably partly as a consequence of having more of the market, but it's also likely an intentional strategy of some of the LCD makers too, in order to grab floor space at the big box stores (hi Samsung).

By "soap opera look" do you mean motion-enhancement (or whatever your specific set calls it)? If so, then, well, yeah, I can see that you're coming from a completely different angle than most here.

I'm not sure how anyone could prefer that that feature be left on for more than 15 seconds. I remember my first experience with it. A shiny new Samsung LCD was playing the Batman Begins Blu-Ray and it had the motion-enhancement switched on. I snapped to it immediately. It looked completely amazing, and unlike anything I had ever seen before....for an incredibly short period of time. Once I adjusted to it, eww...it was awful. I had to walk away.

But hey, if that's the sort of thing that floats your boat, then your opinion on plasmas makes sense to me.

Edit: I dig the 120hz set... I absolutely love the soap opera look. Thats probably why the Kuro was just not for me

That's all you had to say! Are you serious? Then, yeah, stick with LCD. I'd rather watch a TV that keeps the integrity of the filmmakers vision, then reduce their art into a cheap soap opera.

Man you guys are something else. You are OBVIOUSLY a fan of plasma - I am not.

I did not have anywhere near the same experience that you had with your Kuro. Matter of fact only 1 person in my household liked how it looked over the LCD.

I cant believe I feel like I need to prove to some people that I infact had a Kuro and just did not like it

Edit: I suppose I could scan a copy of my receipt and link it on photobucket?I think it's fine if that's what you prefer. It's your wallet; you're entitled to vote with it however you see fit.

As for me, a plasma owner, it's not that I don't like LCD, because I do like them. Samsung has some very interesting displays, and I like the XBR8 a lot also, price not withstanding. I just don't like them *as much*. But the AMP induced soap opera thing is hard for me to quantify. Just as you find plasma plain looking (for lack of better term), I find the AMP effect artificial looking. It's captivating at first, but after watching it for even a short time, it starts to look ... wrong (to me).

A relative of mine has a 46A750 that I like a lot, as long as the AMP is off, and I'm sitting dead center. A little bit off axis doesn't look as good, and it's his house lol (I never told him these impressions, other than hey, wow, nice TV).

Bottom line: The world is big enough for both techs. Whatever display you end up with, I hope you'll enjoy yours as much as I enjoy mine.

Another thread hijacked by plasma vs LCD warfare. :rolleyes:

The OP will make up his own mind. Yeesh.

I think it's fine if that's what you prefer. It's your wallet; you're entitled to vote with it however you see fit.

As for me, a plasma owner, it's not that I don't like LCD, because I do like them. Samsung has some very interesting displays, and I like the XBR8 a lot also, price not withstanding. I just don't like them *as much*. But the AMP induced soap opera thing is hard for me to quantify. Just as you find plasma plain looking (for lack of better term), I find the AMP effect artificial looking. It's captivating at first, but after watching it for even a short time, it starts to look ... wrong (to me).

A relative of mine has a 46A750 that I like a lot, as long as the AMP is off, and I'm sitting dead center. A little bit off axis doesn't look as good, and it's his house lol (I never told him these impressions, other than hey, wow, nice TV).

Bottom line: The world is big enough for both techs. Whatever display you end up with, I hope you'll enjoy yours as much as I enjoy mine.

I tried the Motion Enhancement (AMP) on my Sony. I tried really hard to like it. But when my son tells me to turn it off immediately, I simply undertood it is simply a gimmick. I tried it a few times.

Again, I'm not saying Plasma is better than LCD, nor am I telling him what to buy. All I'm saying is its extremely difficult to understand why anyone would return the kuro after seeing the picture quality.

By "soap opera look" do you mean motion-enhancement (or whatever your specific set calls it)? If so, then, well, yeah, I can see that you're coming from a completely different angle than most here.

I'm not sure how anyone could prefer that that feature be left on for more than 15 seconds. I remember my first experience with it. A shiny new Samsung LCD was playing the Batman Begins Blu-Ray and it had the motion-enhancement switched on. I snapped to it immediately. It looked completely amazing, and unlike anything I had ever seen before....for an incredibly short period of time. Once I adjusted to it, eww...it was awful. I had to walk away.

But hey, if that's the sort of thing that floats your boat, then your opinion on plasmas makes sense to me.

Same exact experience I had.

And trust me when I say this, I've seen his receipt. He truly did return the Kuro. I've seen it all. WOW..............SPEECHLESS, Truly speechless. And he got a unbelievable price for it! This has to be a dream...This has to be a dream. You my friend are the 1 in a million guy everyone talks about. :)

And trust me when I say this, I've see his receipt. He truly did return the Kuro. I've seen it all. WOW..............SPEECHLESS, Truly speechless. And he got a unbelievable price for it!

LOL -
Even the sales guys were amazed the Manager gave it to me for that.

Im just a fan of the "fake" 120hz guys ;)

Edit: Hey I gave it a shot... I told you I really did LMAO

And for shits and giggles, go ahead and scan the receipt and post it. Not that I want to be proven wrong. Not that I necessarily don't believe you. I just want to meet the man who returned a Kuro.I can believe that someone would do that...I personally know people that prefer (no offense lcd people) the cartoony, videolike look of lcd's whereas I vastly prefer the smooth (not blurry) filmlike quality of plasma.

To op wow your thread got hijacked, im all in for hearing what you think of your plasma vd lcd comparision, i got lost though, do you have the 5020 pioneer or panasonic tv? Anyhow i think you will like the motion its faster on plasma the blacks are better and the less visable flaws that lcd are stuck to such as viewing angles (still an issue) less then perferd blacks motion blurr motion resolution mura S n H. Unaccurate super bright retina burning whites, Edge enhacement wow and the list can go on.

To the guy that returned the elite, Watch Hanecook on the elite even in SD dvd, or better yet in a BD if you have it, Pop in D-nice pure mode, and if you dont like the realistic almost to touch his face the WOW is all i can say,

Yes i read that you used controlcal but you probably were not using the right content to see the benefit of an accurate plasma.

Also a BIG BIG BIG HUGE deal is that a pro can make the elite "pop" out without crushing balcks or detail by being able to increase the fl to 51 which is something you cannot achive due to not having equipment,....

If i were you give it one more shot trust me you have to play with it with all sorts of material from gaming (Gow 2/ rockband/guitar hero) to cartoons to accurate skin tones like hanecook or dark scenes like the dark night or black hawk down ( very very useful in a lcd vs plasma comparision)

Also not wearing the phosphoers would make it less improvement, so how long you had to play with the elite before you threw in the white towel?

OK guys, I want to comment on a few of the things mentioned thus far. Also, when I get the kuro, I will start a clean thread.

First, I can understand the "plain" comment to an extent. Let me give you a brief decription of my original 42" purchase three years ago.

I walked into a BB to purchase a plasma. At that time LCD was a pixelated mess IMO. I zeroed in on the 42PX50U because they had it segregated and glorified. I liked it very much but my eyes kept being drawn to the 42PD50U, the 480P ED version.

I brought my dad down and asked his opinion befoere told him anything about the sets. He went hands down with the ED. The stuburn man in me refused to simply allow an ED into my house, so I bought both sets. I did this because I was sure it must be some mistake and EVERYONE says not to trust PQ in the store.

Once I got them both set up one above the other spoon fed the same content. My eyes were constantly drawn to the ED. I now know that with the larger pixel size and 10' viewing distance, the ED was the better choice. The PX looked washed out and dim in comparison. The funny thing is I listened to many on this forum years ago and actually went against my gut and kept the PX over the ED. For three years I have been very happy with the PX in regards to motion but I have also felt it looked dim and I never got used to that. So give this guy a break.

I am one of those people that is drawn to the brighter pop of LCD. Personaly, I really like AMP on low for non-bluray content. It does a great job in many cases of cleaning up dirty pans. With BR movies I do actually turn it off. It does rip the intended movie feel away.

For me, the LN52A650 is top notch race horse with a missing leg. That missing leg is the motion issues I have with the set and that is it. Yes I said it is good with pans in many cases but read my previous posts to see what I really mean. I am being honest when I say that 20-30% of the HD content I used to be able to watch is not viewable any more. In these cases the entire show is a big tripple ball festival and MUST change the station.

With that said, I am going to make this comparison to be fair. I need to eliminate other factors before I blame everything on the set. You have to remember that I went from 42" to 52". Some (not sure how much) of what I am experiencing may be attributed to the larger screen. I will know more when I am able to test them both.

But before you call anyone a liar, remember that some eyes are drawn to contrast, others dial in on brightness period. Granted brightness may get mistaken for quality, but sometimes you go in knowing that but you still have a hard time convincing your eye balls.

Peace

PS I have no problem with viewing angle on this set and the gloss finish is very nice IMO. There is no more glare than my panny had. I dont want to make this set out to sound like a monster.

Also, Controlcal will void my warranty, correct? And is Controlcal gimped on the 5020 or do you get full tweakabiltiy like the elites? The lack of control has got me very nervous right now.

To op wow your thread got hijacked, im all in for hearing what you think of your plasma vd lcd comparision, i got lost though, do you have the 5020 pioneer or panasonic tv? Anyhow i think you will like the motion its faster on plasma the blacks are better and the less visable flaws that lcd are stuck to such as viewing angles (still an issue) less then perferd blacks motion blurr motion resolution mura S n H. Unaccurate super bright retina burning whites, Edge enhacement wow and the list can go on.

To the guy that returned the elite, Watch Hanecook on the elite even in SD dvd, or better yet in a BD if you have it, Pop in D-nice pure mode, and if you dont like the realistic almost to touch his face the WOW is all i can say,

Yes i read that you used controlcal but you probably were not using the right content to see the benefit of an accurate plasma.

Also a BIG BIG BIG HUGE deal is that a pro can make the elite "pop" out without crushing balcks or detail by being able to increase the fl to 51 which is something you cannot achive due to not having equipment,....

If i were you give it one more shot trust me you have to play with it with all sorts of material from gaming (Gow 2/ rockband/guitar hero) to cartoons to accurate skin tones like hanecook or dark scenes like the dark night or black hawk down ( very very useful in a lcd vs plasma comparision)

Also not wearing the phosphoers would make it less improvement, so how long you had to play with the elite before you threw in the white towel?


I own both.

To op wow your thread got hijacked, im all in for hearing what you think of your plasma vd lcd comparision, i got lost though, do you have the 5020 pioneer or panasonic tv? Anyhow i think you will like the motion its faster on plasma the blacks are better and the less visable flaws that lcd are stuck to such as viewing angles (still an issue) less then perferd blacks motion blurr motion resolution mura S n H. Unaccurate super bright retina burning whites, Edge enhacement wow and the list can go on.

To the guy that returned the elite, Watch Hanecook on the elite even in SD dvd, or better yet in a BD if you have it, Pop in D-nice pure mode, and if you dont like the realistic almost to touch his face the WOW is all i can say,

Yes i read that you used controlcal but you probably were not using the right content to see the benefit of an accurate plasma.

Also a BIG BIG BIG HUGE deal is that a pro can make the elite "pop" out without crushing balcks or detail by being able to increase the fl to 51 which is something you cannot achive due to not having equipment,....

If i were you give it one more shot trust me you have to play with it with all sorts of material from gaming (Gow 2/ rockband/guitar hero) to cartoons to accurate skin tones like hanecook or dark scenes like the dark night or black hawk down ( very very useful in a lcd vs plasma comparision)

Also not wearing the phosphoers would make it less improvement, so how long you had to play with the elite before you threw in the white towel?

Gus, lighten up my friend. We all make choices for personal reasons. He has described the type of picture he prefers so let it be. Not everyone is going to like the same thing but you don't always need to come in here and push your opinion like it's an infomercial for Pioneer. Allow people to make their own choices and accept it. It doesn't necessarily make him right and you wrong but it does make him right for HIS choice.

:)

For those that have Directv, try CSI-NY on spike. This is a perfect example of the issue I am having. The picture on stills is spot on perfect, but..... it is exhibiting THE MOTION PROBLEM I have found with several shows, thus the reason I am still TV hunting/invetigating. It's not blur at alll, it's stutter.

For example, I am watching a pan with a parked police car in view. The car is moving with the pan, not moving with the pan, moving with the pan, not .... It's like the objects are saying "Hey wait for me" then catch up at 1.5x speed then repeat the process. Its almost like the processor of the TV is having a hard time keeping up. It only does this on some shows. I am certain it has to do with broadcast. It's difficult to articulate what I am seeing. Best thing I can say is it's VERY jerky.

This is with AMP on or off. I am thinking this has much to do with 120hz and a poor broadcast. Correct me if I am wrong, but the 120hz function runs regardless of AMP being on or off. My gut tells me that the Plasma will not be jerky (under this condition) but I also am guessing that the crispness will fall off the roof because it's not trying to smooth the motion with hypothesized frames like 120hz is. So instead of jerky motion and crisp images, I may see smooth motion with far less detail (in this situation only). My gripe may be 120hz and not the A650 when all is said and done.

Like I said, this is only a guess until I see them side by side.

No it wont voild your warranty as you wont tell pioneer you adjusted the SM, if done right theirs no worries just make sure to write down everything you are about to change before you change it. Also you WONT get full tweakability with the SM on the non elite, its not possible you can however have a few adjustements, for a full calibration you need an elite period.

Dont let it be a concern for most the 5020 is an amazing set even without the adjustments and the rgb off sets seems to do the trick.

Also, Controlcal will void my warranty, correct? And is Controlcal gimped on the 5020 or do you get full tweakabiltiy like the elites? The lack of control has got me very nervous right now.

Oh and i never called anyone a lier

For those that have Directv, try CSI-NY on spike. This is a perfect example of the issue I am having. The picture on stills is spot on perfect, but..... it is exhibiting THE MOTION PROBLEM I have found with several shows, thus the reason I am still TV hunting/invetigating. It's not blur at alll, it's stutter.


Topper, I'm not sure, but this thread might be talking about the same issue you're having:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1113184

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=920011

Again, after seeing these pictures, how could anyone call the Kuro Picture dull? I'm still in awe.???? :)

Thanks Sysshock but that really does not describe what I am seeing. This is a clear and distinct stutter. I have however seen the fisheye and distorted motion issue as well. Jurasic Park III looked like that. It looked like they were using a strange lense. I even saw that on some shots of Obama getting sworn in. Some shots had his head stretched if it was too close to an outside portion of the screen. Annoying but not the sets fault I'm thinking.

What I am seeing is very distinct. There is stuttering on pans and seperately object movement looks like object is here then there with no in between. Almost like in focus, object moves and processor can't keep up and then a millisecond after object re-appears in focus in a slightly different location but no blur. It is a very digital look and there is no smearing. I used the analogy of the little girl comming out of the well in the movie the ring as a joke but it is actually the closest thing I can think of to explain this. Or another analogy would be flipping pages showing a cartoon but the guy flipping the pages is a little drunk and some of the pages are out of order. LOL

My friend has the 46" and says he does not get this. We will see.

could be motion resolution or motion blurr.

Thanks Sysshock but that really does not describe what I am seeing. This is a clear and distinct stutter. I have however seen the fisheye and distorted motion issue as well. Jurasic Park III looked like that. It looked like they were using a strange lense. I even saw that on some shots of Obama getting sworn in. Some shots had his head stretched if it was too close to an outside portion of the screen. Annoying but not the sets fault I'm thinking.

What I am seeing is very distinct. There is stuttering on pans and seperately object movement looks like object is here then there with no in between. Almost like in focus, object moves and processor can't keep up and then a millisecond after object re-appears in focus in a slightly different location but no blur. It is a very digital look and there is no smearing. I used the analogy of the little girl comming out of the well in the movie the ring as a joke but it is actually the closest thing I can think of to explain this. Or another analogy would be flipping pages showing a cartoon but the guy flipping the pages is a little drunk and some of the pages are out of order. LOL

My friend has the 46" and says he does not get this. We will see.

Just curious if you're running your DTV feed with HDMI hookup. I have heard that with HDMI you can get some jitter if the handshake isn't right. Have you tried component video to see if that helps?

That is a very good question. Now that you mention this, I have an interesting story about this TV and HDMI. My HDMI output died on my Motorola DVR about 1 week after I get the LN52A650 even though the DVR worked for a year previously. Directv sent me another DVR and the HDMI stopped working after two days.

Directv said they would not send me another DVR because this was a known issue with Samsung. They directed me to Samsung to get a firmware update. Samsung then said the problem was the DVR and to contact Directv for a firmware update. At this point I am very pissed. Luckily, in this case the HDMI came back after a reboot unlike the previous DVR. It may fail again and not come back. At any rate, there are posts all over the net regarding this issue and the problems between many set-top boxes out there and the new Sammys. Mostly Verizon Fios customers. Many people out there are using component because of this.

I will definately try the component connection and let you know. I would think is there was an issue that effected PQ it would be across the board but then again maybe not. I will let you know.

Funny how technology causes more step backwards than forwards sometimes.

OK a little more info. I tried component and same thing. What I did realize is the following. The jerkyness does have a bit to do with AMP after all. And I think it is just having a hard time trying to render which is amplifying the stuttering. When I turn AMP off under these conditions the stutter is much less, it is however very jumpy or shakey and a little blurry. AMP does smooth the shake a bit but I think it craps itself every 500ms or so trying to keep up when correcting a picture that exhibits this behavior.

I knew that the root of the problem had to do with a poor broadcast mixed with the technology of the set.

Now to see if the content still appears shakey on the kuro with cinemotion off. Like I said, I did not see this shake on my older panny but it was alot smaller.

I am just amazed there isnt more about this when I google.

This is again the reason I HATE the Plasma vs LCD threads. You have your LCD guys and you have your Plasma guys - young eyes, old eyes, this, that, etc. Buy what looks good to YOU and leave it at that.


People can buy what looks good to them but this is AV Science. These threads never have any science behind them. No references to test measurement etc. And I sure as heck don't mean manufactures specs. Its not what looks like candy to my eye but what is the most accurate and presents the material as intended. Hopefully my eyes are trained enough that this is the same. But I will always trust test equipment more than my eyes when it comes to video as every aspect of the image is defined by standards which are measurable. IMO, one should be striving for the most accurate display that fits their requirements. Can we please put the science back in these threads.

As long as theres no industry standards to measure response times or dynamic contrast etc, the number game can be anybody's guess. And do AVS'ers love to play the number game.

My experience has been baptism by fire. Or process of elimination. Find what makes you happy and don't buy into the hype.

People can buy what looks good to them but this is AV Science. These threads never have any science behind them. No references to test measurement etc. And I sure as heck don't mean manufactures specs. Its not what looks like candy to my eye but what is the most accurate and presents the material as intended. Hopefully my eyes are trained enough that this is the same. But I will always trust test equipment more than my eyes when it comes to video as every aspect of the image is defined by standards which are measurable. IMO, one should be striving for the most accurate display that fits their requirements. Can we please put the science back in these threads.


I agree with much of what you say.
I like the way D-nice put it, "Picture quality, and Picture preference are not the same thing".
People get confused with this.
People see things differently and preferr different things.

This is why standards are set and televison shows, movies, etc. adhere and are optimized to fit these standards.
Therefore, Whichever set can come closest to these standards is the technically the best picture.

And measurements with equipment are the best way to gauge the results because as I sad, people see things differently.

This isn't the AVP (Audio Video Preference) forum.
Its the AVS (Audio Video SCIENCE) forum.
And its a known fact that science relys on measurements.

May be the most profound quote I have read in this forum. Thank you

"Picture quality, and Picture preference are not the same thing"

I'm getting my new 111FD tomorrow, so I'll be comparing it the 650 also. I'll see how their black levels compare and post some photos. However, I won't pretend I'm not somewhat biased against LCDs.

As long as theres no industry standards to measure response times or dynamic contrast etc, the number game can be anybody's guess. And do AVS'ers love to play the number game.

My experience has been baptism by fire. Or process of elimination. Find what makes you happy and don't buy into the hype.

That may be true for published specs on a manufacturers data sheet, but not the case when independent companies are running tests on specific sets and determining actual measurements. Those can be helpful and people like D-nice have been very helpful in that regards.

Just curious if you're running your DTV feed with HDMI hookup. I have heard that with HDMI you can get some jitter if the handshake isn't right. Have you tried component video to see if that helps?

Jitter pertains to audio.

I'm getting my new 111FD tomorrow, so I'll be comparing it the 650 also. I'll see how their black levels compare and post some photos. However, I won't pretend I'm not somewhat biased against LCDs.

Funny that you mention this bias. IMO, I feel that we sometimes misconstrue what we perceive as bias, and distaste through a bad experience. Unfortunately, that bad experience does in fact evolve into a bias in some shape, or form, putting us in the mindset that we will no longer put ourselves in a position where we are unhappy with a purchase, because of again, said bad experience.

I always try and maintain an open mind, and understand that like anything in life, things change. I give thanks to God that I have been blessed with the opportunity to purchase the things that I like, and have hands on experience, whether those experiences be bad, or good.

as long as theres no industry standards to measure response times or dynamic contrast etc, the number game can be anybody's guess. And do avs'ers love to play the number game.

My experience has been baptism by fire. Or process of elimination. Find what makes you happy and don't buy into the hype.

oh boi

Man you guys are something else. You are OBVIOUSLY a fan of plasma - I am not.

I did not have anywhere near the same experience that you had with your Kuro. Matter of fact only 1 person in my household liked how it looked over the LCD.

I cant believe I feel like I need to prove to some people that I infact had a Kuro and just did not like it

Edit: I suppose I could scan a copy of my receipt and link it on photobucket?

Seriously, I own a Bravia W4000 because I couldn't stand the phosphor lag on my PZ85 so I returned the set. I even prefer the bravia with HD content!

But c'mon, every time I see a kuro with SD on display, I think it DESTROYS my set, or any other LCD for the matter... On HD content you may prefer the kuro look or the samsung look, it's just a matter of tastes, but there's simply no comparison between SD content. The kuro is orders of magnitude better, because it has an orders of magnitude better picture processing. The SD channels on a kuro look extraordinary crisp.

Well, I for one have hooked up my A630 to the component output from my DirectTV DVR. Though a small part is due to wanting to keep an older OPPO dvd player around for my odd needs. I haven't seen any difference in pq, and now I have the available hdmi for the OPPO.

I've only had the set for a few days, so I can't say that I have seen every nuance of how it performs. I haven't seen any "jutter" - yet!

Well, I for one have hooked up my A630 to the component output from my DirectTV DVR. Though a small part is due to wanting to keep an older OPPO dvd player around for my odd needs. I haven't seen any difference in pq, and now I have the available hdmi for the OPPO.

I've only had the set for a few days, so I can't say that I have seen every nuance of how it performs. I haven't seen any "jutter" - yet!

Please look for content that is "shakey with AMP off". You can most likely find a CSI or some movie on FOXHD or TNTHD. I can usually find a show that is exhibiting this behavior at will. Then turn Amp on and see if it helps the shake but creates very digital jumps and stutter.

My Kuro has been delayed a bit and my Sammy 30 days is up next Wednesday. They have no more A650's in stock, so worst case scenario is I will have to put the KURO against a 52W4100 in my lving room instead. This may not be a bad thing.