I sell a/v products. and 9/10 customers will tell me the LCD looks brighter and better, until I show them the actual detail of the plasma. After demoing a couple of scene's, showing people the gray scale of plasmas, and the non existent shading and black levels on LCD's I would say 9.5 out of 10 people like the plasma better. I can't even look at those LCD's.

sorry just venting. None the less, a customer told me the "52a550" is the best tv on the market. Atleast go with a decent lcd like the 650. comments.

I would say 9.5 out of 10 people like the plasma better. I can't even look at those LCD's.

sorry just venting. None the less, a customer told me the "52a550" is the best tv on the market. Atleast go with a decent lcd like the 650. comments.
Well its what makes the world go round. My first HDTV was a rear projection and I didn't like it so I returned it for a plasma. Theres many issues why I didn't like my plasma and then I bought two LCD's. They worked better for me.

My latest TV is the Samsung 52a550 and I agree with your customer. It has a semi-glossy screen which works well even when southern exposure sunlight is at its peak during daylight hours. Its versatility can't be beat and its best attribute is during dark movies you can see great detail where other technologies you can't.

and the colors and shading are off. way off. I don't get this world. thanks though.

It's pretty simple, really: The strengths of LCD are immediately obvious, the strengths of plasma aren't.

LCD is like the hot high school cheerleader, plasma is like the awesome/smart/funny/cute girl-next-door but you don't know it 'cuz she's wearing glasses and frumpy clothes. 'til the last reel of the movie, that is. :D

Life's not fair, oh well.

Oh, and I really like the color accuracy on Samsung LCDs, actually. On Series 6 and up, anyway.

IMO it is great for an lcd. I'd say as good as a midgrade plasma. We have one at work. Have calibrated it a few different ways. Can't get it near the quality of the Pioneer.

I like Pioneer too. I hope they survive.

OP
If you read in the LCD forum Samsung has different panels, Like an "S" "A" "C" panels. If on the side of the TV theres a version SQ01 its a Samsung panel. Thers also could be chi mei and AUO panels.

I'd buy the 630 if its today with a "S" panel. IMO 120hz isn't worth it other then having 5:5 pull down. So an a550 is a nice TV also.

The glossy 650 is just a little better because the glossy is what gives it the wow factor. But then the glare reflections come into play.

It's pretty simple, really: The strengths of LCD are immediately obvious, the strengths of plasma aren't.

LCD is like the hot high school cheerleader, plasma is like the awesome/smart/funny/cute girl-next-door but you don't know it 'cuz she's wearing glasses and frumpy clothes. 'til the last reel of the movie, that is. :D

Life's not fair, oh well.

Oh, and I really like the color accuracy on Samsung LCDs, actually. On Series 6 and up, anyway.


Very good point.


LCD is like a Blonde cheerleader thats all flashy and eye catching at first. She makes a bunch of promises and teases you but you get her home and she is annoying, has a prostetic leg, a glass eye, bad breath, and will not go away.


Plasma is like the Interesting Smart girl that wears glasses and does not stand out in a crowd at first. But you get her home and she cooks you a great meal, is a brilliant conversationalist, then she takes off her glasses and lets down her hair and she is the most beautiful and interesting thing you have ever seen!! And she is also alot of fun and really Delivers!!

OP
If you read in the LCD forum Samsung has different panels, Like an "S" "A" "C" panels. If on the side of the TV theres a version SQ01 its a Samsung panel. Thers also could be chi mei and AUO panels.

I'd buy the 630 if its today with a "S" panel. IMO 120hz isn't worth it other then having 5:5 pull down. So an a550 is a nice TV also.

The glossy 650 is just a little better because the glossy is what gives it the wow factor. But then the glare reflections come into play.

yea, the same glare issue we've had for so long now. yea... stop being lazy close your ....ing blinds

LCD is like a Blonde cheerleader thats all flashy and eye catching at first. She makes a bunch of promises and teases you but you get her home and she is annoying, has a prostetic leg, a glass eye, bad breath, and will not go away.

Plasma is like the Interesting Smart girl that wears glasses and does not stand out in a crowd at first. But you get her home and she cooks you a great meal, is a brilliant conversationalist, then she takes off her glasses and lets down her hair and she is the most beautiful and interesting thing you have ever seen!! And she is also a lot of fun and really Delivers!!


Except that I'm marrying the cheerleader, 'cuz she'll do things the nice girl won't. :D

Except that I'm marrying the cheerleader, 'cuz she'll do things the nice girl won't. :D

Hence, the word "Delivers" in my earlier post.:D

Come on man, you know its the shy quite and intellectual types that are the wild ones!! lol.

Hence, the word "Delivers" in my earlier post.:D

Come on man, you know its the shy quite and intellectual types that are the wild ones!! lol.

Soooooo true!

Hence, the word "Delivers" in my earlier post.:D

Come on man, you know its the shy quite and intellectual types that are the wild ones!! lol.

Oh, sorry. I thought you might be talking about pizza.

You need to find a better 'naughty' word. ;)

Except that I'm marrying the cheerleader, 'cuz she'll do things the nice girl won't. :D

Ahhh, that's where many get fooled. The nice girl isn't always as nice as one may think and the cheerleader is often just a tease. :D

Very good point.


LCD is like a Blonde cheerleader thats all flashy and eye catching at first. She makes a bunch of promises and teases you but you get her home and she is annoying, has a prostetic leg, a glass eye, bad breath, and will not go away.


Plasma is like the Interesting Smart girl that wears glasses and does not stand out in a crowd at first. But you get her home and she cooks you a great meal, is a brilliant conversationalist, then she takes off her glasses and lets down her hair and she is the most beautiful and interesting thing you have ever seen!! And she is also alot of fun and really Delivers!!

Damn! I'm about to rush home and make love to my Kuro!

Ahhh, that's where many get fooled. The nice girl isn't always as nice as one may think and the cheerleader is often just a tease. :D


Then again, sometimes the easy girl really is just as easy as you think she is. Look at Lindsay Lohan.
.

yea, the same glare issue we've had for so long now. yea... stop being lazy close your ....ing blinds
Some of us don't have blinds on our windows, and don't want them. Are we therefore not worthy of having acceptable picture quality? What about lighting from other rooms that get reflected in the TV? Is my wife not allowed to work in the kitchen while the TV is on?

Not everybody can, or even wants to, tightly control ambient lighting. Having a technology that works for such scenarios is a good thing, even if it means tradeoffs that are unacceptable to rigid videophiles.

I sell a/v products. and 9/10 customers will tell me the LCD looks brighter and better, until I show them the actual detail of the plasma. After demoing a couple of scene's, showing people the gray scale of plasmas, and the non existent shading and black levels on LCD's I would say 9.5 out of 10 people like the plasma better. I can't even look at those LCD's.

sorry just venting. None the less, a customer told me the "52a550" is the best tv on the market. Atleast go with a decent lcd like the 650. comments.Ah.....

Another why are all those people who buy LCDs over plasma so stupid thread.

How is the corporate outlook at Best Buy these days?

Ah.....

Another why are all those people who buy LCDs over plasma so stupid thread.

How is the corporate outlook at Best Buy these days?

I miss my local CC, they were helpful and knew the product. At least the people I dealt with. Even told me to go buy my HDMI cables on the internet for obvious reasons. Now that is service!

Mike

I am having a really tough time understanding the plasma guys and their public criticism of the LCDs. Let's walk slowly through the logic.

1. The supply and demand law are still in effect: the higher the demand, the higher the price.

2. What I want to buy I want to buy at the lowest possible price.

3. Therefore, it is in my interest to keep the demand low if I can.

4. Consistent with Item 3, as a prospective buyer I have no interest in telling everybody what a wonderful thing the item I am about to buy is.

5. Plasma guys keep raving about Elite Kuro.

6. This makes more people want Elite Kuro.

7. This leads to a higher demand for Elite Kuro.

8. The prices go higher when more people want Elite Kuro.

9. The current owners of Elite Kure will pay more when the time to upgrade comes because they kept talking about what a marvel Elite Kuro is instead keeping their mouth shut and enjoying their toys.

10. Conclusion: Elite Kuro owners are acting to their financial detriment because the pleasure of bragging is just too irrestible.

Anything illogical here?

Not exactly, although it all does sort of fall apart in the real world when you consider that Kuros are cheaper now than they've ever been, the 50" models especially.

I miss my local CC, they were helpful and knew the product. At least the people I dealt with. Even told me to go buy my HDMI cables on the internet for obvious reasons. Now that is service!

Mike

Yea, every once in a while you will find one that knows what he/she is talking about.
And its like a breath of fresh air and makes you think that there may be hope for these bigbox stores.
a while back at HHgreg, I ran into a salsman who reccomended the plasmas over the LCD's. He went on about how motion, clouding, flashlighting, How viewing slightly off-angle harms the PQ substantially,etc.

It was nice to see a salesman that actually did his homework and wasn't just trying to make a quick buck and sell me a cheap Samsung/Sony LCD with the huge list of issues that comes with buying one.
He went on to tell me that the Consumer reports are not a good place to go for display comparisons and then went on telling me how useless the contrast ratios written on the advertisements are.

They really should make salesmen go thru a one day class or something so they will know the differences and stop recommending LCD's to people for movies/regular TV watching.
LCD's were not made for motion video. they are meant for text based applications like computers.
They are doing a great disservice to many people by recommending the the lower performing set to them

Some of us don't have blinds on our windows, and don't want them. Are we therefore not worthy of having acceptable picture quality? What about lighting from other rooms that get reflected in the TV? Is my wife not allowed to work in the kitchen while the TV is on?

Not everybody can, or even wants to, tightly control ambient lighting. Having a technology that works for such scenarios is a good thing, even if it means tradeoffs that are unacceptable to rigid videophiles.
I have the most beautiful mountains view out my living room window. The view can't be beat and I'd much rather have the world of mountains coming into my living room than the world of television. Like I said my 52a550 has a stunning picture and its versatility can't be beat.

Thanks for your reasoning.

Yea, every once in a while you will find one that knows what he/she is talking about.
And its like a breath of fresh air and makes you think that there may be hope for these bigbox stores.
a while back at HHgreg, I ran into a salsman who reccomended the plasmas over the LCD's. He went on about how motion, clouding, flashlighting, How viewing slightly off-angle harms the PQ substantially,etc.

It was nice to see a salesman that actually did his homework and wasn't just trying to make a quick buck and sell me a cheap Samsung/Sony LCD with the huge list of issues that comes with buying one.
He went on to tell me that the Consumer reports are not a good place to go for display comparisons and then went on telling me how useless the contrast ratios written on the advertisements are.

They really should make salesmen go thru a one day class or something so they will know the differences and stop recommending LCD's to people for movies/regular TV watching.
LCD's were not made for motion video. they are meant for text based applications like computers.
They are doing a great disservice to many people by recommending the the lower performing set to them


I just wanted to highlight that word in your comment Chad, as it wouldn't be fair to an unsuspecting "passerby", to read that, and get the wrong impression. While they may have "some" issues, same can be said for any and all technologies.

In my area, I have yet to visit a BB that pushed one technology over the other. Quite the contrary, most actually prefer plasma (not saying one is better than other, just stating my observation/experience with this demographic). On the other hand, most of the CC's in my area perferred the latter. The difference between the two staffs, is the staff at CC, used the typical misconceptions of plasma, such as the usual "life cycle", and "Burn in".

Another thing one has to take into account with these "large" B&M's, is that these people have to deal with the usual "ignorant" questions (at a high traffic rate nonetheless). Like with a lot of things, one becomes callus, and, or does not have the time to explain the differences between LCD and Plasma, when they have a group of people behind them waiting for service. Another thing is, that although these salesmen do not work on commission, some of them are in fact "enthusiasts", and do not enjoy being elaborate on a $900.00 purchase, with someone is who is trying to squeeze them for every penny, in the meantime, again, being completely clueless. So in most cases, they are just trying to "move it along".

Now, is this right? Probably not, but I can understand their views, as I have had NUMEROUS conversations with a couple of the people of my local BB/Mag, and am very good friends with some of them, including management. Also, I have been there enough to see it with my own two eyes and ears.

Fact of the matter is, the average consumer is at a complete loss, and looks for someone to either tell them what to buy, or tell them that the TV that they like is the best TV in the store.

Personally, I feel that people are way too hard on these salesmen. In most cases they are undertrained, underpaid, overworked, and pegged with enormous responsibility. You know what the people at BB get for being an extremely great, and knowledgable salesmen? A round of applause at the end of the day lol. It is in my opinion, that you if you are a great salesmen, it should be reflected in your paycheck, atleast that is how I run my business, and treat my staff, and some of them are teenagers, fresh out of H.S., so the whole "they are just kids, with their first job, and is part of the learning curve, in preparation for the real world" excuse, doesn't work with me (which is the reasoning I received in a conversation on the matter, believe it or not).

I have the most beautiful mountains view out my living room window. The view can't be beat and I'd much rather have the world of mountains coming into my living room than the world of television. Like I said my 52a550 has a stunning picture and its versatility can't be beat.

Thanks for your reasoning.

How do you watch the TV, and the mountains at the same time? Also, don't know how long you've been living there, but as beautiful as the mountains may be, like anything, gets a little old after a while.

It is kind of like dating the HOTTEST chick in your school. Once you've been with her for a while, she becomes "just like every other girl". Everyone stills oogles over her, but all you see are her flaws. :p

Some of us don't have blinds on our windows, and don't want them. Are we therefore not worthy of having acceptable picture quality? What about lighting from other rooms that get reflected in the TV? Is my wife not allowed to work in the kitchen while the TV is on?

Not everybody can, or even wants to, tightly control ambient lighting. Having a technology that works for such scenarios is a good thing, even if it means tradeoffs that are unacceptable to rigid videophiles.

Don't know about you, but it doesn't really matter rather you have a matte, or a glossy screen; high ambient light will degrade the picture to the point where you can longer use the term "Picture Quality", because regardless, it is a hot mess. At that point, it is called "watching TV", and not "looking for PQ".

No such thing as a "rigid" videophile. You either are, or you aren't.

Personally, I feel that people are way too hard on these salesmen. In most cases they are undertrained, underpaid, overworked, and pegged with enormous responsibility.

Finally, I am not the only one with a common sense view of the subject. I have been defending the BB and CC sales people since I joined AVS. They are called SALESMEN, for crying out loud, not personal advisors, educators, nannies, couches, spiritual leaders, friends, etc. And the stores are there to store and sell. They are not universities, libraries, advisory facilities, or places to chat and meditate.

Let's be honest: how many of you went there for the sole purpose of showing off your vast knowledge of every set by asking a poor 18-year old kid a question you already know the answer to just to embarrass the guy or at least to appear superior?

Finally, I am not the only one with a common sense view of the subject. I have been defending the BB and CC sales people since I joined AVS. They are called SALESMEN, for crying out loud, not personal advisors, educators, nannies, couches, spiritual leaders, friends, etc. And the stores are there to store and sell. They are not universities, libraries, advisory facilities, or places to chat and meditate.

Let's be honest: how many of you went there for the sole purpose of showing off your vast knowledge of every set by asking a poor 18-year old kid a question you already know the answer to just to embarrass the guy or at least to appear superior?

So it is your opinion that a salesman should not learn a little about what they are selling to better serve thier customer??

Your statement is the whole problem.

Salesman ARE there to help the customer and give accurate and helpful advise. PERIOD!!

Do you think its a coincidence that the best salesmen out there are the ones who know thier products, advise thier customers to the best solution that benefits them, and serve customers needs??

So whats next Ramazar???
Are we supposed to stop asking store employees where items are located in the store because they "Are not our personal guides" either??

What exactly does a salesman do in your ideal store? Just take your money?

Just because alot of these salesmen are teenagers is no excuse.
They could take a little time to get to know what they are selling.

Finally, I am not the only one with a common sense view of the subject. I have been defending the BB and CC sales people since I joined AVS. They are called SALESMEN, for crying out loud, not personal advisors, educators, nannies, couches, spiritual leaders, friends, etc. And the stores are there to store and sell. They are not universities, libraries, advisory facilities, or places to chat and meditate.

Let's be honest: how many of you went there for the sole purpose of showing off your vast knowledge of every set by asking a poor 18-year old kid a question you already know the answer to just to embarrass the guy or at least to appear superior?

Using the word salesman for the people at BB and CC is not doing justice to the profession. There are a few that will do their homework and understand the products that they are selling but the majority are simply nothing but order takers.

Look at Lindsay Lohan.
.

I prefer not to. ;) :D

Salesman ARE there to help the customer and give accurate and helpful advise. PERIOD!!



No, they are not. They are there to sell. Period.

Selling is the OBJECTIVE. Doing all else is the MEANS to this objective. It is up to the store management to assure that the means are serving the OBJECTIVE of selling well. If being knowledgable serves this objective well, it is up to the management to decide.

This may come as a shock to many of you but being too knowledgable and helpful can be a bad thing for some businesses. You should be able to figure out why on you own.

No, they are not. They are there to sell. Period.

Selling is the OBJECTIVE. Doing all else is the MEANS to this objective. It is up to the store management to assure that the means are serving the OBJECTIVE of selling well. If being knowledgable serves this objective well, it is up to the management to decide.

This may come as a shock to many of you but being too knowledgable and helpful can be a bad thing for some businesses. You should be able to figure out why on you own.

Being a good salesman also means knowing the products you are selling and being able to educate and inform your customers. You're confusing an order taker with a professional salesman. Go to a high end audio video store and compare the difference between their salesmen and those at BB and CC. I realize there's likely a large difference between payscale also but BB and CC are basically order takers, not salesmen and like in any field of work their are good ones and their are bad ones with everything inbetween.

No, they are not. They are there to sell. Period.

Selling is the OBJECTIVE. Doing all else is the MEANS to this objective. It is up to the store management to assure that the means are serving the OBJECTIVE of selling well. If being knowledgable serves this objective well, it is up to the management to decide.

This may come as a shock to many of you but being too knowledgable and helpful can be a bad thing for some businesses. You should be able to figure out why on you own.

Your outlook on this is the whole problem and the reason why there are so many returns.

Your confusing POS with sales.

If these salesmen should not be responsible for doing anything, then why do we need them??
Why not just take the product directly to POS?

I certainly hope you never open a store. Because your idea of customer service is horrible.

Salesmen are supposed to know about the products they are selling and offer that knowledge to the customer with the intention on helping the uninformed customer make the right choice for thier individual needs.

Go to BB/CC and ask the management what thier salesmen are supposed to do. I guarantee the answer won't be to stand there and do nothing.
The answer will be "to provide assistance and product knowledge to the customer"

Your idea of a salesmen is horrible!

I guess your philosophy on this is "Do you have a question about a product?, whatever you do, don't ask the salesman"

Are you a car salesman??

CC is gone and Amazon is doing fine. See the difference? I, for one, got to the point of being unable to go "shopping" to a b&m anymore as I can't make a decision by just looking. I do it on my computer by reading specs, reviews, opinions, etc. I go to BB to get what I decided at home I want if I want it quickly and don't mind paying extra. Otherwise, it's Amazon or Monopprice.

I am not a car salesman. I never said that a salesperson should be ignorant or do nothing except take orders. You are arguing with yourself.

What I did say is that there is an optimum point of education, training and pay the management tries to achieve. A salemen who knows more than he needs will expect higher pay rate. If he does not get it, he will be restless and will leave taking whatever training he got with him. All the smart ones are already employed somewhere else. A salemen who is too helpful will not be efficient as he will be often cornered by the AVS newbies and get pumped for all they can get out of him.

There is a time limit any smart salesman or customer rep designates depending on the case. A walk-in into a BB who does nothing but asks questions and shows no desire to buy anything TODAY is a pain in the rear end because the salesman knows that he is just "auditioning" and getting free advice to later get on his computer and get whatever he needs on line.

That is why CC is dead and so is Tweeter. Did you guys ever talk to a dumb salesman at Tweeter? Me neither but they are gone just the same.

The vast majority of consumers aren't videophiles. The way the tv looks physically (form factor) is just as important as PQ to some people. I am constantly shocked and amazed by how many people leave their new HDTV's in whatever torch mode was default straight out of the box....and maybe tweak the color or brightness a bit and leave it at that. At the risk of seeming like a douchebag....whenever I see this (and know the people reasonably well) I always grab the remote and make a few discrete changes such as turning off nonsensical video processing and edge enhancement.....and lowering contrast/brightness.:p

A salemen who is too helpful will not be efficient as he will be often cornered by the AVS newbies and get pumped for all they can get out of him.

.

Too helpful??
Is there such a thing?

And CC and tweeter failed because of the economy. It has nothing to do with salesmen being "too educated".

Its people with the mentality you have that have contributed to our economy getting this way and stores like these going out of buisness.

People buying from companys like Amazon instead of buying from stores are contributing to putting A/V stores out of buisness.
Amazons idea of customer service is having you email or call some call center in India and talk to someone who barley speaks english. You are a number with them, nothing more.

Too helpful??

And CC and tweeter failed because of the economy. It has nothing to do with salesmen being "too educated".

Well, CC failed due to the economy AND making a lot of dumb moves, such as how it treated its employees.

They did something weird a couple of years back that caused most of their good salespeople to leave, for one thing.

Too helpful??
Is there such a thing?

And CC and tweeter failed because of the economy. It has nothing to do with salesmen being "too educated".

Its people with the mentality you have that have contributed to our economy getting this way and stores like these going out of buisness.

People buying from companys like Amazon instead of buying from stores are contributing to putting A/V stores out of buisness.
Amazons idea of customer service is having you email or call some call center in India and talk to someone who barley speaks english. You are a number with them, nothing more.

I disagree. Companies like CC, Tweeter and others failed because they're greedy. Greed is one of the seven deadly sins and the chickens are coming home to roost. They rather go out of business that let the customer win, that's corporate capitalism for you.

Amazon is alive well because sell stuff that most people can afford, plain and simple.

I dissagree as well. These companies fail because their business model is based on continued growth rather than a sustainable business of service and sales that generates sufficient profit by providing value to the consumer. Lots of businesses do perfectly well selling at prices similar to CC and such, but provide consumers with greater service and value.

I dissagree as well. These companies fail because their business model is based on continued growth rather than a sustainable business of service and sales that generates sufficient profit by providing value to the consumer. Lots of businesses do perfectly well selling at prices similar to CC and such, but provide consumers with greater service and value.

I think you've got it right. There's basically two ways to make it in the TV world:

1- 'The Amazon Way': Online, low prices, but no personal service

2- 'The Service Way': Face-to-face, higher prices, but excellent, personal service, and better convenience, in terms of return policies and being able to pick it up 'now'

If you're a store who's going the #2 route, but aren't perceived as really offering much more service than the lower-priced #1 outfits, you are screwed and will definitely not survive for long. :(

I mean, this is the writing on the wall going forward. More B&Ms are going to bite the dust, and the online segment is going to only get stronger, as ppl lose their inhibitions about making big-ticket item purchases online.

The B&Ms that survive are going to have to offer really excellent service.

When I bought my first set of HT gear in the mid 90s, the guys I dealt with at Tweeter were very very knowledgeable. Knew their stuff backwards and forwards, and were very helpful in specifying the tradeoffs between different product options. As the years went by, this regressed to the point where the people there would read the labels to me when describing product features. I wasn't sorry to see them go. Good riddance.



That is why CC is dead and so is Tweeter. Did you guys ever talk to a dumb salesman at Tweeter? Me neither but they are gone just the same.

When I bought my first set of HT gear in the mid 90s, the guys I dealt with at Tweeter were very very knowledgeable. Knew their stuff backwards and forwards, and were very helpful in specifying the tradeoffs between different product options. As the years went by, this regressed to the point where the people there would read the labels to me when describing product features. I wasn't sorry to see them go. Good riddance.

Classic case of a company trying to grow to big, too fast, and not keeping up their standards.

I mean, this is the writing on the wall going forward. More B&Ms are going to bite the dust, and the online segment is going to only get stronger, as ppl lose their inhibitions about making big-ticket item purchases online.

The B&Ms that survive are going to have to offer really excellent service.

I have made my contribution in supporting local b&ms. In the last 12 months I bought three TVs, a monitor, a printer, a PC. The only items I never will buy locally are the cables. So much for that.

The quotes above are correct. And so is my point regarding Tweeter as it is the other factors like the economy, bad management decisions, etc that seals the fate of the local b&ms but not "dumb" or smart sales people as we rely less and less on salesmen for information.

That was not the case a generation ago when a salesman was the ONLY source of information. So I find it amusing and eventually annoying when, of all people, it is the AVS posters who complain about "the uneducted and the ignorant" kids at the local b&ms. If you guys are so smart why do you care how smart they are?

I am not sure what you mean by "service". The before-purchase info is from the internet. After the purchase, we are at the mercy of the Indians operating the tech support lines. And if that TV set fails, we are stuck with the repair shops operated by the guys who barely speak English and have no spare parts. God have mercy on those who are in that predicament. Any other stuff like VCRs, monitors, laptops, etc. we just throw out.

A while ago I busted a 25-cent power connector on my 2000-dollar laptop. The estimate: 1400. After two hours, some soldering and a lot of swearing, the laptop was as good as new. So much for the "service economy" that was supposed to replace the smoke stacks. No manufacturing, no service, no jobs. The only places still humming along are where the dollar printing presses are.

I am not sure what you mean by "service". The before-purchase info is from the internet. After the purchase, we are at the mercy of the Indians operating the tech support lines. And if that TV set fails, we are stuck with the repair shops operated by the guys who barely speak English and have no spare parts. God have mercy on those who are in that predicament. Any other stuff like VCRs, monitors, laptops, etc. we just throw out.

Some dealers still service what they sell. They also provide a great deal of assistance to the vast majority of consumers who would not know an interconnect from a speaker wire so that they don't have to depend on the asian with a triage script to read from.

I am not sure what you mean by "service". The before-purchase info is from the internet.

For the tech-savvy it is. For everyone else, it is not. Ever see a 60-year old guy trying to buy a TV? A housewife? Latino immigrant? There's always exceptions to the rule, but...

Even ppl who are semi-knowledgeable about TVs (I'm not talking AVS ppl, we are the very well-educated exception) can get plenty of value from a good salesperson. Someone who, without bias or an agenda, can steer someone to the right product at the right price, while taking all of the customer's needs into account.

Any fool blue polo shirt guy at BB can say, "Buy the Sammy A650, it's really good!". But, what if your living room has lots of windows/reflections? Oops, that super-glossy screen isn't going to be the best for you. What if you really mostly watch sports? Hmm, maybe plasma, with its more natural handling of motion, might be better for some ppl. What if you really want a TV with good built-in sound? The 650 might be unsatisfying, but the 750 will have better sound.

How's the store's return policies? How does it handle repairs under warranty? And can the salesguy explain all that quickly and clearly, with a minimum of miscommunication or lies of omission?

And does the salesperson make the customer comfortable, at ease, and is willing to take the time to educate them enough to make an informed decision, without throwing SO MUCH info and tech jargon at the customer that they only end up confusing them and wasting both the salesguy's and the customer's entire afternoon? :confused:

I think service matters, and I think a lot of ppl would agree with me on that.

That said, some of us do not need service, and for us there is Amazon and the like. So, we all have choices, and that is great.

What is not great is when a store, whether online or B&M, does not come through on its advantages, or lacks basic competence. The online store that can't get your order right or tries to bait-and-switch, the B&M that asks a price premium yet does not do a damn thing really to earn it.

I disagree. Companies like CC, Tweeter and others failed because they're greedy. Greed is one of the seven deadly sins and the chickens are coming home to roost. They rather go out of business that let the customer win, that's corporate capitalism for you..

So if our economy was strong you still think they would be going out of buisness? They may be greedy and it may feel good to see some justice, but lets be realistic here. Thier closing is a result of the economy.
I have had a number of bad experiences with BB and CC, so i know where you are coming from though.


Amazon is alive well because sell stuff that most people can afford, plain and simple.

And why can't people afford to buy from a local walk-in store here in America??
Its because of companys like big river who put our stores out of buisness and outsource thier employment instead of replacing the jobs here in the US.
So much of this (amoung other things) has gone on and taken its toll on us.

I worry about the stores of some of the forum sponsors like Robert and Roman, because of companys like Big river who are the truly greedy ones.

Personally, I will always buy from them before big river or a company like them.
Not only because I want to help out an american company which will help our economy, But ecause of the superior service and knowledge they have to offer also.
On top of that, You get something that companys like big river can never compete with, a firm handshake guarantee and being able to call up the owner of the company if you have a problem. lol
No bull or having to repeat yourself about the problem your having over and over to 10 different call center reps.

And the cool thing is that in most cases, you might even get a better deal with them than big river.

I worry about the stores of some of the forum sponsors like Robert and Roman, because of companys like Big river who are the truly greedy ones.

Personally, I will always buy from them before big river or a company like them.


I agree with you on this point. As I said, I have done my very best to buy locally. But the trend, in spite of you, me and others who feel the same, is there and we may delay it but we can't stop it.

On a more philosophical note, there is less and less personal contact in our lives. Instead of getting together at the town square, we email, text, send 4-buck greeting cards. I think that is one of the reasons even those who are no longer "shopping" still visit this forum.

For the tech-savvy it is. For everyone else, it is not. Ever see a 60-year old guy trying to buy a TV? A housewife? Latino immigrant? There's always exceptions to the rule, but...

Even ppl who are semi-knowledgeable about TVs (I'm not talking AVS ppl, we are the very well-educated exception) can get plenty of value from a good salesperson. Someone who, without bias or an agenda, can steer someone to the right product at the right price, while taking all of the customer's needs into account.

Any fool blue polo shirt guy at BB can say, "Buy the Sammy A650, it's really good!". But, what if your living room has lots of windows/reflections? Oops, that super-glossy screen isn't going to be the best for you. What if you really mostly watch sports? Hmm, maybe plasma, with its more natural handling of motion, might be better for some ppl. What if you really want a TV with good built-in sound? The 650 might be unsatisfying, but the 750 will have better sound.

How's the store's return policies? How does it handle repairs under warranty? And can the salesguy explain all that quickly and clearly, with a minimum of miscommunication or lies of omission?

And does the salesperson make the customer comfortable, at ease, and is willing to take the time to educate them enough to make an informed decision, without throwing SO MUCH info and tech jargon at the customer that they only end up confusing them and wasting both the salesguy's and the customer's entire afternoon? :confused:

I think service matters, and I think a lot of ppl would agree with me on that.

That said, some of us do not need service, and for us there is Amazon and the like. So, we all have choices, and that is great.

What is not great is when a store, whether online or B&M, does not come through on its advantages, or lacks basic competence. The online store that can't get your order right or tries to bait-and-switch, the B&M that asks a price premium yet does not do a damn thing really to earn it.

Very good points SS2 as you explained it very well and I agree. :)

send 4-buck greeting cards.

Dollar store! ;) :D

I am having a really tough time understanding the plasma guys and their public criticism of the LCDs. Let's walk slowly through the logic.

1. The supply and demand law are still in effect: the higher the demand, the higher the price.

2. What I want to buy I want to buy at the lowest possible price.

3. Therefore, it is in my interest to keep the demand low if I can.

4. Consistent with Item 3, as a prospective buyer I have no interest in telling everybody what a wonderful thing the item I am about to buy is.

5. Plasma guys keep raving about Elite Kuro.

6. This makes more people want Elite Kuro.

7. This leads to a higher demand for Elite Kuro.

8. The prices go higher when more people want Elite Kuro.

9. The current owners of Elite Kure will pay more when the time to upgrade comes because they kept talking about what a marvel Elite Kuro is instead keeping their mouth shut and enjoying their toys.

10. Conclusion: Elite Kuro owners are acting to their financial detriment because the pleasure of bragging is just too irrestible.

Anything illogical here?

What is illogical here is your assumption the consumer electronic market is confined only to this forum. The members here talking postitively about the kuro will have basically no affect on the market.




Salesman ARE there to help the customer and give accurate and helpful advise. PERIOD!!



Salesmen are there to make a sale. While it may be true that those that look out and help the consumer are "better", that is not why they are there

I have no problem with that. It's their ethics - or lack thereof, that many of them seem to have, that I often have a problem with.

I sometimes think that the only thing they actually spend time teaching them is how to BS their way to a sale.

Especially BB's salespeople. They are by far the worst, most dishonest bunch I've ever encountered.

Salesmen are there to make a sale. While it may be true that those that look out and help the consumer are "better", that is not why they are there

So what does a salesman do in your ideal store?

Define "make a sale".

And just how do they get that sale??

Maybe in your ideal store when you ask a salesman a question they tell you that its not part of thier job description and they are only there to "make the sell", but thats not what they are paid to do.

Go to some of the websites of these stores and find the job desciption of these salesmen.
I will bet you anything that advising, assisting, and helping the customer are part of thier job description.

A salesman should know the products they sell and be able to answer questions from the customer correctly.

Is anyone really gonna argue this?

So if a customer walks up to a salesman and asks him what kind of cables he needs, and the salesman tell the customer what he needs and he turns out to be incorrect, Are you saying that the salesman is not at fault because "he is only there to make the sell"????

my goodness, no wonder there are so many misinformed customers.

So what does a salesman do in your ideal store?

A salesman should know the products they sell and be able to answer questions from the customer correctly.

Is anyone really gonna argue this?


A salesman should do what the employer told him to do.

He is supposed to answer only the questions his employer told him he is allowed to answer. Any answers that expose his employer to bad publicity or litigation are off limits regardless how knowledgable the saleman is and how curious the customer might be. Also, badmouthing a specific brand can cost the store dearly like losing the rights to sell as an authorized retailer.

Would you like to have a guy on your staff who knows all the weak points of every brand and model so that he can share all that wisdom with the customers? It sure would be helpful to know the failure or return rates. Every time I asked I always got an evasive answer.

Same for side-by-side comparisons. You can ask a saleman what he thinks about Dynex and Sony and he will tell you that some like Dynex and some like Sony. This is how salesmen are or should be because if a customer can't see the difference the customer is a moron and a waste of time.

I still stand by my original point that salesman's only duty is to maximize the profit for the store using methods approved by the management and staying on the safe side of the criminal code. They are scripted for a the same reason why there is only one way to make the Whopper that Burger King management approved.

So what does a salesman do in your ideal store?

Define "make a sale".

Take your money in exchange for a given product

And just how do they get that sale??

Some do it by offering the best price, some do it by telling you it would look great in your living room or garage.... others do it by being able to finance you; still others do it buy stretching the truth and telling you what you need to hear which in turn convinces you to hand over your money for said item -> there are a thousand different ways

Maybe in your ideal store when you ask a salesman a question they tell you that its not part of thier job description and they are only there to "make the sell", but thats not what they are paid to do.

They will basically tell you only what they think you need to hear in order to sell you the item in question....

Go to some of the websites of these stores and find the job desciption of these salesmen.
I will bet you anything that advising, assisting, and helping the customer are part of thier job description.

A salesman should know the products they sell and be able to answer questions from the customer correctly.

Is anyone really gonna argue this?

Just because you may find some description online that says a salesman's duties are advising, assisting and a whole other things, doesn't mean much....
And, just because you think a salesman should know the product they are selling doesn't make it so -> anyone that has shopped for just about anything knows these simple and obvious truths

So if a customer walks up to a salesman and asks him what kind of cables he needs, and the salesman tell the customer what he needs and he turns out to be incorrect, Are you saying that the salesman is not at fault because "he is only there to make the sell"????

At fault of what? Being an idiot? Being misinformed? Not caring? Not paying attention during job training? He could be at fault of a lot of things

my goodness, no wonder there are so many misinformed customers.

The market is all about the dollar and the number of units -> it isn't about making sure Jon Smith is informed of things like 120hz doesn't apply to plasma technology.

Zivman,

Thank you for your post as I almost reached a point of total and complete desperation.

The market is all about the dollar and the number of units -> it isn't about making sure Jon Smith is informed of things like 120hz doesn't apply to plasma technology.

I am not talking about how it is.

we all know that most of these guys know next to nothing about what they are selling.

I am talking about how it should be and is supposed to be.

But your stance that it should be this way is the whole problem.

If a retailer wants to run his buisness the way you are describing, then he might as well fire the salesmen because they have no job function.

If your description of a salesman doing his job is "Take your money in exchange for a given product", then they are not needed. That is what the cashier is there for.

No need to have a salesman if he can't answer question, assist customers, and be knowledgable about what he is selling.

This is why most people go to retail/AV stores instead of just buying from the internet, To talk with someone about the products and learn to find the best solution for them.


There is no excuse for a salesman not knowing at least the basics about what he is selling.

There is no excuse for a salesman not knowing at least the basics about what he is selling.


You are correct. But the implication of that sentence is that they don't know the basics. They do judging from my personal contacts as well as the conversations I overheard standing close. There is a huge difference between knowing the basics that are published at the manfucturer's website and the hard-to-get background information like the failure rates, professional reviews, software bugs, etc. No salesman can keep up with it or is allowed by store management to share with prospective buyers.

I would like to suggest that we at AVS are not the only smart ones. To assume that the management of BB didn't consider that giving their sales guys more training might increase thier bottom line is simply arrogant. Their logic would have to be like this: I, the general manager of BB, know that my company would make a lot of money if I had more informed and helpful guys on the floor. But I will not do anything about it because...

Try to come up with a list possible reasons why he wouldn't do it starting with "because I am stubborn, stupid or both".

I don't know that it'd be a conscious assessment that they're choosing to be stubborn or stupid. It's more that they probably don't see a favorable cost/benefit ratio for the extra amount of training required. That's short-sighted. If I deal with a salesperson at a B&M store who takes the time to understand my needs, and point me in a direction that I might not have been aware of previously, I'm going to remember that. That sort of long-term relationship building is unfortunately very rare these days.

You are correct. But the implication of that sentence is that they don't know the basics. They do judging from my personal contacts as well as the conversations I overheard standing close. There is a huge difference between knowing the basics that are published at the manfucturer's website and the hard-to-get background information like the failure rates, professional reviews, software bugs, etc. No salesman can keep up with it or is allowed by store management to share with prospective buyers.

I would like to suggest that we at AVS are not the only smart ones. To assume that the management of BB didn't consider that giving their sales guys more training might increase thier bottom line is simply arrogant. Their logic would have to be like this: I, the general manager of BB, know that my company would make a lot of money if I had more informed and helpful guys on the floor. But I will not do anything about it because...

Try to come up with a list possible reasons why he wouldn't do it starting with "because I am stubborn, stupid or both".

I am having a really tough time understanding the plasma guys and their public criticism of the LCDs. Let's walk slowly through the logic.

1. The supply and demand law are still in effect: the higher the demand, the higher the price.

2. What I want to buy I want to buy at the lowest possible price.

3. Therefore, it is in my interest to keep the demand low if I can.

4. Consistent with Item 3, as a prospective buyer I have no interest in telling everybody what a wonderful thing the item I am about to buy is.

5. Plasma guys keep raving about Elite Kuro.

6. This makes more people want Elite Kuro.

7. This leads to a higher demand for Elite Kuro.

8. The prices go higher when more people want Elite Kuro.

9. The current owners of Elite Kure will pay more when the time to upgrade comes because they kept talking about what a marvel Elite Kuro is instead keeping their mouth shut and enjoying their toys.

10. Conclusion: Elite Kuro owners are acting to their financial detriment because the pleasure of bragging is just too irrestible.

Anything illogical here?


Maybe they want Elite Kuro to still be around next time they upgrade. It won't be if it is kept a secret. Just one reason I thought of.

A salesman should do what the employer told him to do.

He is supposed to answer only the questions his employer told him he is allowed to answer. Any answers that expose his employer to bad publicity or litigation are off limits regardless how knowledgable the saleman is and how curious the customer might be. Also, badmouthing a specific brand can cost the store dearly like losing the rights to sell as an authorized retailer.

Would you like to have a guy on your staff who knows all the weak points of every brand and model so that he can share all that wisdom with the customers? It sure would be helpful to know the failure or return rates. Every time I asked I always got an evasive answer.

Same for side-by-side comparisons. You can ask a saleman what he thinks about Dynex and Sony and he will tell you that some like Dynex and some like Sony. This is how salesmen are or should be because if a customer can't see the difference the customer is a moron and a waste of time.

I still stand by my original point that salesman's only duty is to maximize the profit for the store using methods approved by the management and staying on the safe side of the criminal code. They are scripted for a the same reason why there is only one way to make the Whopper that Burger King management approved.

First off, you don't know what BB or CC told their salesmen as I doubt it's that simple. The problem isn't what they are telling their salesmen to say, it's the lack of training that they give their salesmen as they are just expected to go out on the floor and "take the order" and hopefully point the customer to the right aisle. You obviously have never been in sales before ramazur by many of your comments but the good ones know their stuff and are more successful because of it.

It sure would be helpful to know the failure or return rates. Every time I asked I always got an evasive answer.

You really think these floor people are privy to that kind of information? They weren't being evasive, they didn't know.

Theres no doubt the AVS is a wealth of knowledge and if your commenting you follow it here. But working with the public is an art, and most buying TV's aren't going to know what AV'sers know.

But just like here we all don't agree so telling someone they have to buy a certain tech over another isn't right either.

My experience is different than others so saying I'm right I just have different opinons. Do I know more than the general public? Probably but the biggest lesson to be learned is let the customer decide and sometimes thats the hard way for each particular individual.

I am having a really tough time understanding the plasma guys and their public criticism of the LCDs. Let's walk slowly through the logic.

1. The supply and demand law are still in effect: the higher the demand, the higher the price.

2. What I want to buy I want to buy at the lowest possible price.

3. Therefore, it is in my interest to keep the demand low if I can.

Not quite. You're making some initial assumptions, such as a finite supply of units in the first place. I agree that if there are only 1000 Kuro Elites in the world, and 4000 interested buyers (up from 1000 last year), you've got problems. But you're forgetting some issues of scale on the manufacturing end.

We have no idea how much it costs to make the units themselves. If the increased cost for additional units is marginal, then conceivably the cost-per-unit to the manufacturer is not that much more. Let's say manufacturer cost per unit for the 1000 units is $1000. Let's say manufacturer cost per unit for 4000 units is $1200.

But with more units, you can also spread those costs out across more buyers. So a mass-produced Kuro Elite might end up costing the individual consumer LESS than a "small market" Kuro Elite because the manufacturer can maintain or grow profit margins while simultaneously spreading the manufacturing costs across the many more customers.


So, it may still be in the interests of Kuro guys to brag because it expands the market, keeps the units flowing, and maybe...just maybe...results in a price cut as manufacturing increases.

On the other hand, maybe Pioneer simply keeps the prices wehre they are and rakes in the extra cash. I have no idea what their business model is, although I think they tend to want to sell to a smaller market and would rather cut production and maintain prices than cut prices and maintain production.

Not quite. You're making some initial assumptions, such as a finite supply of units in the first place. I agree that if there are only 1000 Kuro Elites in the world, and 4000 interested buyers (up from 1000 last year), you've got problems. But you're forgetting some issues of scale on the manufacturing end.



Good point. I meant the retailers rather than the manufacturers. Every time an item becomes "hot" the price goes up due to the-now-and-here demand. This is true of scalping tickets, water and blankets before a hurricane, cars, etc. Long term, the extra demand may cause the TV companies to jack up the volume of the next year's models. Other than this explanation, your points are well made.

On a personal note, I just don't see any motivation in extolling the virtues of what I own other than a short-term gratification of getting others to agree with me if, as a result of my compelling presentation, others will follow and buy the same thing. The net result is that now many have the same set and my standing relative to the rest is now lowered. It is one thing to own a 500SL as one of two or three in the village. It is another to live a village where half the population has them. Can you imaging how difficult it is to live in Beverly Hills? A forum where they discuss cars does not deal with the advantages of having AC because everybody, even those on food stamps, has one.

Well, yeah, but that's if you view your standing as a member of an exclusive club as all that important. Me I'd just be happy to have a nice TV. :) But I get what you're saying. I think there's more to extolling the virtues of this or that product that you own besides "Look, I'm special." I mean, maybe I genuinely want to share the positive experience I have with other folks because I want them to enjoy it too. So in that case it's less of "Look what I have and you don't" and more about "Join our club! It's awesome in here and you'd have so much fun!"

But regardless, for the time being I can't afford to be in the Kuro Elite club, so for me, most of that discussion is purely academic. :)

Plasma newbie here...ready to pull the trigger on the Panny 850.

But first a few questions:
How does the 850 handle sidebars on 4:3 material?
Is there a risk of IR or do today's plasmas handle that without stretching?
And what about black bars top and bottom on 2:35?

I know LCD doesn't have these potential issues, but I can't justify the price of the XBR8.

Plasma newbie here...ready to pull the trigger on the Panny 850.

But first a few questions:
How does the 850 handle sidebars on 4:3 material?
Is there a risk of IR or do today's plasmas handle that without stretching?
And what about black bars top and bottom on 2:35?You'll have a choice of black or gray sidebars...or stretch it out to fullscreen. As far as the top/bottom bars on 2:35....you can't control the color but you can also stretch to fullscreen. IR is just a normal part of plasma technology that will lessen or go away altogether once the screen has about 6 months of viewing time on it. Actual permanent burn-in shouldn't really be a concern these days...especially on the 1080p Panasonic panels. Just use a good mix of fullscreen HD and sidebar/top and bottom bar for the first few hundred hours and you'll be fine.

^Thank you, sir....now to pull that trigger.:)

I have no problem with that. It's their ethics - or lack thereof, that many of them seem to have, that I often have a problem with.

I sometimes think that the only thing they actually spend time teaching them is how to BS their way to a sale.

Especially BB's salespeople. They are by far the worst, most dishonest bunch I've ever encountered.

Wow, do you mind sharing what happened??

Being a good salesman also means knowing the products you are selling and being able to educate and inform your customers. You're confusing an order taker with a professional salesman. Go to a high end audio video store and compare the difference between their salesmen and those at BB and CC. I realize there's likely a large difference between payscale also but BB and CC are basically order takers, not salesmen and like in any field of work their are good ones and their are bad ones with everything inbetween.

To be fair, there is a learning curve with any job. Even those "professional salesmen" you set apart in your post at one point in their professional lives knew nothing about the products or services they sell.

If you catch a new employee (as eager, intelligent, or passionate as any) on day one of his/her job selling electronics, you're likely to get a mixed-bag of accuracy. Come back, and speak to that same employee after a year selling and you'll see a much more accurate source of information.

The difference is turnover. It's terribly high in most of retail, which includes big-box stores. The problem is that management is constantly training new talent, because they're having to replace the guy that just graduated college and is going on to a career in criminal justice.

So, given that, a lot of buyers who find good talent in a given store tend to want to only deal with them in the future. That's why they ask "is X in today? No? I'll wait til he's' back".

Can you blame them? No.

I like Pioneer too. I hope they survive.

They will.

One minor point on the notion of "A good salesman helps his customers." That's true up to a point, but a REALLY good salesman helps his customers decide to buy from him. That's the point of the job, after all. BUT part of being good at that job is figuring out what people need/want and getting them routed accordingly.

So, if I walk into a local HT store, and I say "I want a Kuro Elite 151FD, but I only want to pay $3500 for it", a GOOD salesman will be able to talk me into buying, say, a 6020FD or a Panny 850 or whatever, AND have me walking out feeling happy rather than as if I'm settling. A good salesman will be able to convey to me that, for my needs, I don't actually need to hold out for the Elite (which he won't sell me at my price point), and can and should simply buy today so that my money goes into his pocket. On top of that, a good salesman will be able to communicate all this to me in a way that leaves me convinced I made the right choice to part with my cash and take the "second choice" set -- happily. But he's also got to recognize that after we've established that neither of us can come to an agreement on price on the 151FD.

Still, that's more than just saying "Oh, dude, this TV ROCKS! It's great. AND it has 120Hz! Awesome, right? Too expensive? Oh, bummer. Well, catch ya later!" It's also less than "Let me spend the next 2 hours finding out your needs, educating you, and not making a sale. I'm here for YOU, after all."

BUT part of being good at that job is figuring out what people need/want and getting them routed accordingly.

So, if I walk into a local HT store, and I say "I want a Kuro Elite 151FD, but I only want to pay $3500 for it", a GOOD salesman will be able to talk me into buying, say, a 6020FD or a Panny 850 or whatever, AND have me walking out feeling happy rather than as if I'm settling. A good salesman will be able to convey to me that, for my needs, I don't actually need to hold out for the Elite (which he won't sell me at my price point), and can and should simply buy today so that my money goes into his pocket. On top of that, a good salesman will be able to communicate all this to me in a way that leaves me convinced I made the right choice to part with my cash and take the "second choice" set -- happily. But he's also got to recognize that after we've established that neither of us can come to an agreement on price on the 151FD.

Still, more than just saying "Oh, dude, this TV ROCKS! It's great. AND it has 120Hz! Awesome, right? Too expensive? Oh, bummer. Well, catch ya later!" It's also less than "Let me spend the next 2 hours finding out your needs, educating you, and not making a sale. I'm here for YOU, after all."

So are you saying that a good salesman can make people believe what he wants whether its true or not?

I agree that the salesman you describe is a good salesman for the company and for his own bankaccount,
But its certainly not a good seller for the customer.
But I guess all that matters is that they get the money. Thats what its all about.
I just feel bad for that guy who wanted the elite and was made to believe that what he wanted was a non-elite.

Example:
A customer walks into CC and says to a salesman, "I have done alot of research and have learned that the Kuro displays the best possible picture, and I want one.

So the salesman tells him that CC doesn't sell pioneer and convinces the customer that the Samsung 650 (that they have on sale and a huge inventory they need to move of) is a better TV and sells him the 650.

He lies his face off, and tells the customer that the pioneer will get burn-in and that the picture is bad.

The customer is not very knowledgable, on this matter, and believes the Salesman knows what he is talking about.
Is this a "good salesman"????

Like I said, For himself, his employer, and his bank account he sure is.

But Imo, he is a bad salesman. He just lied to a customer right in thier face for a buck.

But this is somehow acceptable today because he is "making the Sale".

IMO, what people need to realize is that thier are many great salesmen out there who are completely honest and do the right thing. and thier bank accounts are in better shape because of it.
They have repeat customers and referrals left and right from satisfied customers.
Plus he can sleep better at night, which is always a plus.

;15724780']Wow, do you mind sharing what happened??Well, for example, have you ever gone in a BB and asked them about OTA HD? 9 times out of 10 they will try to tell you that you can't get HD any other way than through Comcast or Direct TV (or whatever providers they happen to be pushing at the time).

Well, for example, have you ever gone in a BB and asked them about OTA HD? 9 times out of 10 they will try to tell you that you can't get HD any other way than through Comcast or Direct TV (or whatever providers they happen to be pushing at the time).

Why would one go to BB and ask about OTA HD other than to harrass the help? Why would you do it repeatedly to know what you would get 9 of 10 times? Slow learner? Or just not much to do? You can DIY a decent OTA antenna in the time it takes to go ask a BB nerd and be watching great TV.

So are you saying that a good salesman can make people believe what he wants whether its true or not?

I agree that the salesman you describe is a good salesman for the company and for his own bankaccount,
But its certainly not a good seller for the customer.
But I guess all that matters is that they get the money. Thats what its all about.
I just feel bad for that guy who wanted the elite and was made to believe that what he wanted was a non-elite.

Example:
A customer walks into CC and says to a salesman, "I have done alot of research and have learned that the Kuro displays the best possible picture, and I want one.

So the salesman tells him that CC doesn't sell pioneer and convinces the customer that the Samsung 650 (that they have on sale and a huge inventory they need to move of) is a better TV and sells him the 650.

He lies his face off, and tells the customer that the pioneer will get burn-in and that the picture is bad.

The customer is not very knowledgable, on this matter, and believes the Salesman knows what he is talking about.
Is this a "good salesman"????

You're kind of putting the rabbit in the hat here. I was thinking of a scenario more along the following lines:

Customer walks into HT store (not CC or BB or whatever) and says "So, I've done my homework, and I want a 151FD. I'll give you $3500 for it." (Although he's willing to go up to $4K.)

The salesman explains that he really can't move lower than $5K on the price and sticks to his guns. Now, at this point the buyer is inclined to walk out...except he really wanted a TV today. The salesman says "Have you taken a look at the Panny 850s?" and proceeds to walk the customer through the Panny's features, pros and cons vs. the Elite, and the like.

All that is based on the salesman (A) understanding his own products, (B) accurately reading the customer's interest, and (C) being able to communicate information to the customer that makes it more likely that the salesman will get a sale AND that the customer is happy in the end.

That's a far cry from flat-out lying to the customer and saying "Oh, the Panny is superior AND it does your dishes too!" or whathaveyou.

However, for the sake of argument, if we take your scenario and the informed customer who went in wanting an Elite actually decided that the 650 IS better FOR THEIR NEEDS AND BUDGET, then where's the problem? If the customer's happy in the end, what's it matter?

Regardless, my main point here is that the salesman's job is to sell first and foremost, but you can do that successfully without BSing customers, without saying "Take it or leave it" and while trying to get an understanding of what it is the customer really wants. In the end, it's always the customer's choice to buy or not, but the salesman can help direct that process and get them oriented towards figuring out what it is they actually want/need/can afford.

In my scenario with the Elite vs. Panny 850, the customer still has a choice. Maybe they say "You know what? You're right. This whole Elite thing is great, but it's really just not worth it for me, considering the differences. The mere fact that it's the best doesn't mean I should shell out the cash for it if I need a set now. I'll take the Panny." Alternatively, they could say "Nah. I still want the Elite. I'll be back in a few months when the price drops. See ya then!" and that's that.

Like I said, For himself, his employer, and his bank account he sure is.

But Imo, he is a bad salesman. He just lied to a customer right in thier face for a buck.

But this is somehow acceptable today because he is "making the Sale".

It's not acceptable to lie to a customer. I also think that salespeople who do that end up doing themselves a disservice. Eventually word will get around that they BS customers, don't know what they're talking about, and then people will refer to them the way they do any college kid killing time at a "big box" store who's stuck in the TV dept. and really doesn't care. But that's not a good salesman in my view. you don't lie to the customer, you try to understand their needs and offer them attractive options based on that.

IMO, what people need to realize is that thier are many great salesmen out there who are completely honest and do the right thing. and thier bank accounts are in better shape because of it.
They have repeat customers and referrals left and right from satisfied customers.
Plus he can sleep better at night, which is always a plus.

I agree wholeheartedly. I want to make clear that a good salesman doesn't lie. They just can read their customers well, know the pros and cons of their stock, and can effectively orient customers towards making a decision that hopefully leads to a sale AND a happy customer.

It's not acceptable to lie to I want to make clear that a good salesman doesn't lie. They just can read their customers well, know the pros and cons of their stock, and can effectively orient customers towards making a decision that hopefully leads to a sale AND a happy customer.
Good point. But I want to add that nobody likes to be told what to buy also? You can show him what you like but let the customer decide what he wants. Sales are about trust.

I don't know about you but what bothers more than anything here on the AVS is when someone tries to tell you what you should buy.

Well, for example, have you ever gone in a BB and asked them about OTA HD? 9 times out of 10 they will try to tell you that you can't get HD any other way than through Comcast or Direct TV (or whatever providers they happen to be pushing at the time).

I've never had that happen to me in a BB. In fact, my store is pretty much sold out of OTA antennas because of Feb 17th.

Do you remember whether or not the person who told you that actually worked in HT? Or were they simply coming from the appliance department trying to help the HT department during busy hours? That may make a difference as to the answer you get.

Good point. But I want to add that nobody likes to be told what to buy also? You can show him what you like but let the customer decide what he wants. Sales are about trust.

I don't know about you but what bothers more than anything here on the AVS is when someone tries to tell you what you should buy.

Oh I agree. I'm not saying take the approach of "Oh you don't want that. You really should think about XYZ." I'm talking more about "I want this for $ABC." "Well, I really can't go that low, but can I ask you why you want that one?" "I've heard it's the best. I want the best." "Well, it's definitely a fantastic TV, but maybe I can show you some similar models in your price range." "No, I want the one I said before." "You might change your mind if I show you what these other models can do. Sure you don't want me to at least give you a quick demo?"

At that point, if the customer's willing to take a look, show 'em the other models and maybe you make a sale. If the customer says "No way, I want what I want," well, you weren't gonna make a sale anyway, but at least you tried.

To me, there's a fine line between being a pushy, obnoxious know-it-all salesman and with being someone who's actually trying to find the customer a product they like. Obviously your goal is to sell widgets or whatever, but there's no reason that you can't make the customer happy while doing that.

I've had experiences with salespeople who obviously wanted to make a sale, but were very interested in making me happy as a customer (not by BSing me, but by orienting me when I wasn't 100% sure of what I wanted). I've also had the experience of idiot salespeople who didn't even bother to find out what I'm looking for really, and were more interested in routing me to whatever their chosen item was in a really ham-fisted fashion. They didn't make the sale, by the way. ;)

Why would one go to BB and ask about OTA HD other than to harrass the help? Why would you do it repeatedly to know what you would get 9 of 10 times? Slow learner? Or just not much to do? You can DIY a decent OTA antenna in the time it takes to go ask a BB nerd and be watching great TV.

most likely because that's a very logical question a customer may ask. Not everyone is a videophile or follows it as closely as those in this forum. The majority know very little about TV's and how you get certain types of broadcasts so a salesman for these stores "should" know and "should" answer them correctly and discuss the alternatives to help educate te consumer into the right choice for them.