An Elite panel with less than 1000 hours of viewing crashes with a repair bill of $4400. The 2 year warranty expired by a month. Am I being unreasonable or is this unacceptable! Mine was a Pro 1540. All Pioneer could say is that electronics are tricky.

I believe you, but have never heard of anything like this before. What's wrong with your 1540?

-Robert

I turned on the TV and it shut off. The red standby light on the panel began to flash. The owner's manual indicated the TV protective circuitry was activated. Repair facility said the panel was bad.....however the tech who took the TV from my house indicated the power supply was bad. This was a nearly brand new TV since it was a second TV and not watched that much. Really pisses me off since I spent 6K on the thing and Pioneer refused to do anything about it.

That stinks, 24 months and less than 1000 hours. Seems like you never turned it on much.

aleeper21, from what you posted it is likely the power supply board, very inexpensive part to change, why are they saying $4400?

Where do you live?

-Robert

Escalate it to corporate.A major failure 1-month out of warranty should be taken care of by Pioneer.

VFR, ^^ I agree. Plus this seems to be a somewhat minor repair.

-Robert

I didn't turn it on that much as I have 3 small children and most of our TV watching was in our family room. It was primarily used during football season. I live in Orlando Florida. I was intially told by the tech who picked up the TV that it may be a power supply but they needed to check it out. Then I was told the panel was bad. All is not lost as I did purchase an extended warranty but I am not sure they will rplace the TV with an Elite. Apparently the service provider indicated the TV could be replaced for less than the repair costs. I don't know what he is smokong but I am not going to be able to replace an Elite for less than $4400 unless I can find a 1540.

Pioneer indicated they have a strict rule that if it is more than 30 days they won't sevice it under warranty. The purchae was 2 years and 5 or 6 weeks. So it was actually over 30 days by a few days. I'll see what the extended warranty people will do on Tuesday. The TV has been out of commission for 5 weeks. Really piss poor service. I purchased the thing at Sound Advice and as I am sure you are aware went out of business.

This just isn't right and I intend to take this as far as I need to in order to recoup my costs including litigation against the warranty provider. Not much I can do with Pioneer except complain and publish this on a forum. Thanks for listening

I don't know what he is smokong but I am not going to be able to replace an Elite for less than $4400 unless I can find a 1540.

Well before you go saying that, a 6020 (non-elite) will absolutely blow away your 1540 in terms of PQ and can be had for less than the repair cost had been labeled. Now before getting too ridiculously upset I would personally call Pioneer and calmly but firmly explain what has happened to the set. The worst that can happen is you will get a no as they do not HAVE to do anything. PR says something different though and typically they will do something for you, even if it came down to working with the company you purchased your extended plan from. Don't lose confidence yet, frustration will help you none. It will get worked out.

Well that absolutely sucks.
I see a couple possibilities here. First is to do as you're doing. Contact regional offices and moving up the food chain if the issue isn't taken care of.

Second, if you purchased it through a charge card like AMEX you may have additional coverage.

Best wishes.

… Am I being unreasonable or is this unacceptable! ....

Many company’s of high-quality products would extend a "good will" repair on a warrantable repair that occurred just out of the warranty period. I don't know if this holds true of any TV manufacturers. It's too bad you don't have your dealer around to go to bat for you. I would keep working on Pioneer as they don't want to tarnish their reputation, though policies can become stricter during hard times. Your best outcome would be if Pioneer replaced your TV with a current model or at least offer you a steep discount on a new model.

Kind of misleading. You have an extended warranty and the purpose is to cover the TV when it's out of warranty. You make it sound like Pioneer is taking advantage of you.

If the unit is deemed repairable by the extended warranty company then that's what you should get.

Kind of misleading. You have an extended warranty and the purpose is to cover the TV when it's out of warranty. You make it sound like Pioneer is taking advantage of you.

If the unit is deemed repairable by the extended warranty company then that's what you should get.

Good point omeletpants. You did mention extended warranty aleeper. Do prefer not to use it aleeper?

Oh yeah, he's got an EW so it's on them. He should keep working on Pioneer but the EW company is on the hook for the repair or replacement. They can't replace the TV with something less comparable unless they have some unusual clause in the contract.

Funkyman, I did call Pioneer and was quickly but politley told they couldn't do anything. My point in this thread was only to indicate that Pioneer's products aren't all there cut out to be. I purchased an Elite not a non Elite. Why should I accept something less?

Omeletpants, Pioneers refusal to do anything is acceptable because I have an EW. I assume it wouldn't be acceptable if I didn't spend the money for the EW. You must think its acceptable that a $6000 TV breaks after such a short period with very little viewing time. I don't know what is misleading as I said it crashed. It's not repairable because the repair costs exceed the replacement costs. The EW will replace it with a comparable. Which means they will want to replace it with a 6020 most likley. Again not an Elite. Plus I will need to buy another EW. I will be out money. Not a significant amount but still an amount I didn't bargain for when I purchased the TV.

Yes, I do expect Pioneer to do something. Do I expect companies to stand behind their products. I certainly do. If it was a minor repair I still would have an Elite and would live with it. The EW is only going to want to replace the TV with a non Elite. I do want the calibration potential of the Elite that is one reason why I purchased the 1540. My question in my intial post was whether I was being unreasonable. At least a couple of you think I am. I wonder if they have had a similiar experience with a high end products.

The EW company has the option to refund my purchase price. It will boil down to what is "comparable". The service rep has already told the claims people the TV can be had for less than the repair costs. He's not talking about an Elite. I do think I am entitled to the same TV or the same current model with the same capabilities. Do you really think they are going to refund my purchase price of $6000 when a comparable model to them is a non Elite at a cost considerably less. Should I just accept the 6020, pay for a new EW and pay to have the universal remote reprogrammed for the new TV?

They're going to have to replace your Elite with another Elite. A non-Elite isn't in the same product category as what you purchased and therefor isn't comparable. What is the pertinent wording in your contract?

Xortam,
I don't have it here but if I recall it says either comparable or similiar. I agree a non Elite isn't an Elite and that is what bothers me about the service reps statment that a new TV could be purchased for less than the $4400 repair cost. I did speak to customer service at the EW and they were helpful. They didn't know the difference between the two. I'll check the exact language but it does say they have the option to use a refurbished model. I plan on speaking to claims this week and also contacting Pioneer. I guess the thing that truly bothers me is the magnitude of the crash.

I will be out money. Not a significant amount but still an amount I didn't bargain for when I purchased the TV.

Yes, I do expect Pioneer to do something.

obviously you did bargain for it considering you bought the EW....

I think it is unreasonable for you to expect pioneer to do something other than politely tell you your TV is out of warranty.... and maybe compliment you on your forsight when you purchased the EW. that is not to say I think it is OK that your panel failed 25-26 months after purchase. You obviously know sh!t happens and electronics fail; even the best brands and manufacturers.

I think you will be getting an Elite as a replacement. While the 6020 is a better pdp than your current panel, it is not an elite. In terms of cost of replacement, I would think they are going off of wholesale cost of the TV. In which case, the pro-151 is easily less money than the $4400 repair bill -> heck, I paid nearly that for mine back in Oct. I think I read somewhere that BB wholesale cost on the pro-151 is just over $3k

Good luck

Pioneer turned you down because you have an extended warranty. I know Pioneer would do more if you had the TV for 25 months and no EW. Pioneer is an excellent company with very good customer support.

Your EW is through another company.

Let me know if you need any assistance.

-Robert

Xortam,
I don't have it here but if I recall it says either comparable or similiar. I agree a non Elite isn't an Elite and that is what bothers me about the service reps statment that a new TV could be purchased for less than the $4400 repair cost. I did speak to customer service at the EW and they were helpful. They didn't know the difference between the two. I'll check the exact language but it does say they have the option to use a refurbished model. I plan on speaking to claims this week and also contacting Pioneer. I guess the thing that truly bothers me is the magnitude of the crash.

That "service tech" sounds suspect to me. Too bad you can't get a second opinion on this repair. You're right, an Elite is what you should get from the EW, as the non-Elites don't have the same features and adjustments, etc. Which EW company is it?

... I guess the thing that truly bothers me is the magnitude of the crash.

Electronics are meant to be used and you can run into problems when you power cycle them too often or leave them unpowered for long stretches of time. Electrolytic capacitors such as found in power supplies will eventually fail due to the absence of voltage.

I remember all too well how Pioneer treated those of us with the Elite PRO 510/610/710 series when all the power supply boards began to fail at about three to five years old, offering half way solutions. But the warranty was for two years. And the new board was less than five hundred.

How many companies even have a standard warrenty over one year? The fact the Pioneer's is 2 years on the Elites does show that they stand behind them.

Zivman,
My bargain was to buy a 1540 Elite which would last longer than 25 to 26 months. I didn't bargain that it would crash and then I'd have to buy another warranty and possibly end up with a non-Elite. I can understand that repairs can be necessary but not a total crash during that same period. Why it occured is beyond me. The EW is like insurance and I am sure it is underwritten by an insurance company.
Robert,
The EW is with Service Net and Pioneer didn't know about the EW until after they declined to do anything about the TV.
It amazes me that some of you feel I should consider myself lucky that I purchased a $900 EW and have no right to expect Pioneer to step up to the plate in this situation. According to Pioneer if it had been within 30 days after the warranty expired they could have done something.

billeickmann, I also owned a Pro510 and had the same problem with the power supply not once but three seperate times in a 1 year period. This was after I had owned the TV for 4 years. This was a known problem. After paying for the board and labor the first two times it failed Pioneer was good enough to supply the board at no cost the last time but I still had to pay for the labor.

I agree I don't know about the tech. Something just isn't right. I found it interesting he wanted me to send him the remote. He told me the EW would want it with the TV.

Gentleman I appreciate your input even if you don't agree with me. I'll just have to wait and see if this turns out OK. I will post what happens and if it is necessary for me to contact Pioneer. For now I'll deal with the EW company. This information may help someone else in the future.

Sounds like same problem pioneer had with my 433cmx and 503cmx and company changed out power supply for free.

aleeper21, I do not think Pioneer has any official policy regarding covering products beyond the warranty term, but I have seen then do accommodations up to 6 months out of warranty and even further to supply parts at no charge when the customer is willing to pay the local service provider for the labor. I think they operate on a case by case basis for courtesies beyond the warranty term.

Anyway, I am glad you have an EW and please do not think I am giving you a hard time, but why contact Pioneer if you have the EW?

-Robert

Hey Robert,
I can understand aleeper here. I would much prefer if the manufacturer handled my product issues than a separate warranty company, especially if my product is relatively new.
My sense is with the original company, you know you're dealing with an authorized repair center and that the parts will be new(most times). With a 3rd party agent you may not get that and are stuck with how they want to handle the claim. That's not so bad 4 or 5 years into usage but at 2 years...:eek:

But didn't he pay extra for an extended warrenty? Why let them off the hook, they are the ones that took his money.

But didn't he pay extra for an extended warrenty? Why let them off the hook, they are the ones that took his money.

Well, I'm guessing he hoped he wouldn't have to use it this early. Once used I guess your done if they replace your set. He'd after buy another extended warranty on a new one.

Well, I'm guessing he hoped he wouldn't have to use it this early. Once used I guess your done if they replace your set. He'd after buy another extended warranty on a new one.

Really? I would have assumed that the extended warrenty would cover the new unit unit the original extention period ran out. I can't remember the last time I bought an EW, so I'm sure I'm wrong.

Robert,
No hard feelings but let me see if I can explain. Pioneer markets their Elite series as a high end, superior technology and quality TV. Because of this they are able to demand top dollar for their products. When these products do not meet expectations that they have set then I think they should step up to the plate and make things right. What that is is obviously subjective as is under what circumstances expectations haven't been met. In my case, I don't think any reasonable person could say they have met expectations for a $6000 TV.

I have to disagree about Pioneers policy. The rep I spoke to made it very clear that they were instructed to decline any warranty service after 30 days from expiration of the warranty. He didn't know about my EW.

Why the big deal as I have the EW. Well, I purchased the EW for $900 to pay for repairs not the total failure of the panel. Moreover, I am at the mercy of the EW company as to how they want to handle the claim. They have very little interest in protecting market share or customer service. The EW contracts are very vague and subject to interpretation. Perhaps they just want to give me a check for the fair market value of my Pro 1540. Say that is $3000. Where will I be able to purchase a comprable Tv (elite)for that amount. What if they believe, as indicated by the tech, that a comparable TV is the 6020 and they only write a check for $3500. They will not go to BB and buy me a TV. That's not how it works. What if they only give me the value of an Elite through the internet and I have to take the risk of buying one online. I could go on and on. Of course I am speculating at this point but I should find out in a few days what the EW company plans to do.

Also, I spent $900 for the EW. Once they replace the TV the EW is gone and I will need to buy a new one at my cost. If it was a simple repair situation I still would have the existing EW for 5 years or until the repairs exceed the retail purchase price.

I don't expect Pioneer to warrant their TV's forever but I do think they made more effort to obtain my satisfaction when I had the problem with my 510. That could change if I escalate the matter.

What are my options if the EW company doesn't want to replace my Elite with an Elite or at least the purchase price of my 1540? Contact Pioneer and hope they do something, except the lesser quality TV or file suit against the EW company. Only the first is desirable. I hope I've made some sense and made it clearer why this situation is unacceptable to me.

Robert,
No hard feelings but let me see if I can explain. Pioneer markets their Elite series as a high end, superior technology and quality TV. Because of this they are able to demand top dollar for their products. When these products do not meet expectations that they have set then I think they should step up to the plate and make things right. What that is is obviously subjective as is under what circumstances expectations haven't been met. In my case, I don't think any reasonable person could say they have met expectations for a $6000 TV.

Going into the purchase, you knew the warranty was for 24months. Based on that, I would have to say, they lived upped to the minimal expectations one could have based on said warranty. It is worst case scenario that it fails shortly after the warranty period was up. Would you have more confidence in the product had it failed 90 days after your purchase and was repaired by pioneer vs dealing with the EW and possibly getting a complete replacement PDP?

I have to disagree about Pioneers policy. The rep I spoke to made it very clear that they were instructed to decline any warranty service after 30 days from expiration of the warranty. He didn't know about my EW.

I don't understand what is wrong about this?

Why the big deal as I have the EW. Well, I purchased the EW for $900 to pay for repairs not the total failure of the panel.
So because it looks like you will be getting a replacement PDP, you would have rather not bought the EW? I fail to see the logic in your statements.


Moreover, I am at the mercy of the EW company as to how they want to handle the claim. They have very little interest in protecting market share or customer service. The EW contracts are very vague and subject to interpretation. Perhaps they just want to give me a check for the fair market value of my Pro 1540. Say that is $3000. Where will I be able to purchase a comprable Tv (elite)for that amount. What if they believe, as indicated by the tech, that a comparable TV is the 6020 and they only write a check for $3500. They will not go to BB and buy me a TV. That's not how it works. What if they only give me the value of an Elite through the internet and I have to take the risk of buying one online. I could go on and on. Of course I am speculating at this point but I should find out in a few days what the EW company plans to do.

Also, I spent $900 for the EW. Once they replace the TV the EW is gone and I will need to buy a new one at my cost. If it was a simple repair situation I still would have the existing EW for 5 years or until the repairs exceed the retail purchase price.

I don't expect Pioneer to warrant their TV's forever but I do think they made more effort to obtain my satisfaction when I had the problem with my 510. That could change if I escalate the matter.

What are my options if the EW company doesn't want to replace my Elite with an Elite or at least the purchase price of my 1540? Contact Pioneer and hope they do something, except the lesser quality TV or file suit against the EW company. Only the first is desirable. I hope I've made some sense and made it clearer why this situation is unacceptable to me.


Your PDP failed, get over it. You have an EW that should take care of you. Even if you 'only' get a 6020 as a replacement, you still have a better panel that the original.

Again, I don't see the logic in your statements:
1.) your TV is beyond the warranty period. It should not suprise, or upset, you that pioneer will not warranty it

2.) you bought an EW. this means you, at some level, expected potential issues with the panel. Thus making the fact you have issue with pioneer not dealing with your panel under warranty, after the warranty period expired, even more confusing. You paid for the EW, use it.

Sh!t happens and electronics fail.... even the best of them. Instead of pissing and moaning about pioneer and what the will and won't do for you, why not focus on the fact you bought the EW and will be getting 9th gen kuro as a replacement

Zivman,
My last post was directed to Robert not you. This is a public forum so I guess I have to see your view point.You don't have to agree with mine and I don't have to agree with you. However, the arrogance you have shown is beyond my comprehension. You have no idea what I am doing or not doing. Robert asked a question and I answered it with an explanation. Your attack at me personally is unecessary. However, I will answer your comments as best I can.

I do expect Pioneer to warrant a total failure of their product under these circumstances. Legally, they don't have to anything. My expectations are different from yours. Your assumption that a 6020 is a better TV is you assumption only. Others have disagreed with your view. I didn't buy a non Elite TV nor did I buy the EW to get a non Elite replacement.


I have to disagree about Pioneers policy. The rep I spoke to made it very clear that they were instructed to decline any warranty service after 30 days from expiration of the warranty. He didn't know about my EW.

I don't understand what is wrong about this?

There is nothing wrong with the policy I simply was responding to Robert when he indicated his experience with Pioneer was differrent than mine. If you had bothered to read both messages you would have seen this.

Why the big deal as I have the EW. Well, I purchased the EW for $900 to pay for repairs not the total failure of the panel.
So because it looks like you will be getting a replacement PDP, you would have rather not bought the EW? I fail to see the logic in your statements.

You're taking this sentence out of context. I was explaining my expectations at purchase not now. How would I know 2 years ago that a PDP was a better quality TV atleast in your view.

Going into the purchase, you knew the warranty was for 24months. Based on that, I would have to say, they lived upped to the minimal expectations one could have based on said warranty. It is worst case scenario that it fails shortly after the warranty period was up. Would you have more confidence in the product had it failed 90 days after your purchase and was repaired by pioneer vs dealing with the EW and possibly getting a complete replacement PDP?

At purchase my expectations was that the TV would not fail period. The EW has nothing to do with my expectations that the unit would not fail. I understand that "**** happens" as you so eloquently stated. The EW was purchased for repairs it is inconceivable to me then and now that the unit would fail in just over two years. I would have the same expectation even if it was longer. Your reasoning is that it lasted as long as the warranty and I should be happy. I wonder if you have had the same issue with an expensive product.

Again, I don't see the logic in your statements:
1.) your TV is beyond the warranty period. It should not suprise, or upset, you that pioneer will not warranty it

Legally you are correct. I am not suprised but I am disapointed in the product. I guess we will just have to disagree on this.


2.) you bought an EW. this means you, at some level, expected potential issues with the panel. Thus making the fact you have issue with pioneer not dealing with your panel under warranty, after the warranty period expired, even more confusing. You paid for the EW, use it.

The EW was insurance nothing more. It had nothing to do with my expectations when I purchased the unit. Do you really think I expected the unit to fail or would need repairs with the hassle associated with the downtime? Why do you think that I bought a $6000 TV? Quality!!



Sh!t happens and electronics fail.... even the best of them. Instead of pissing and moaning about pioneer and what the will and won't do for you, why not focus on the fact you bought the EW and will be getting 9th gen kuro as a replacement

I am glad I purchased the EW. In your view I shouldn't be upset. Well, I guess we will just see how this turns out. I didn't buy a non Elite TV. You can think that the new TV's are better. For now I don't. I'll end on this note: Do you work for Pioneer as you seem to have some strong feelings about defending them in this matter?

Omeletpants, Pioneers refusal to do anything is acceptable because I have an EW. I assume it wouldn't be acceptable if I didn't spend the money for the EW. You must think its acceptable that a $6000 TV breaks after such a short period with very little viewing time. I don't know what is misleading as I said it crashed. It's not repairable because the repair costs exceed the replacement costs. The EW will replace it with a comparable. Which means they will want to replace it with a 6020 most likley. Again not an Elite. Plus I will need to buy another EW. I will be out money. Not a significant amount but still an amount I didn't bargain for when I purchased the TV.

Yes, I do expect Pioneer to do something. Do I expect companies to stand behind their products. I certainly do. If it was a minor repair I still would have an Elite and would live with it. The EW is only going to want to replace the TV with a non Elite. I do want the calibration potential of the Elite that is one reason why I purchased the 1540. My question in my intial post was whether I was being unreasonable. At least a couple of you think I am. I wonder if they have had a similiar experience with a high end products.

The EW company has the option to refund my purchase price. It will boil down to what is "comparable". The service rep has already told the claims people the TV can be had for less than the repair costs. He's not talking about an Elite. I do think I am entitled to the same TV or the same current model with the same capabilities. Do you really think they are going to refund my purchase price of $6000 when a comparable model to them is a non Elite at a cost considerably less. Should I just accept the 6020, pay for a new EW and pay to have the universal remote reprogrammed for the new TV?

It was out of warranty therefore Pioneer has absolutely no responsibility to you and I'm surprised you think they do. It's clearly stated in their warranty. It's your responsibility to understand the warranty limitations when you buy. 24 months means 24 months. That's the contract you have with them, just like they didn't come to your house after the sale and ask you for more money.

Your claim is solely against the EW company. I'm always amazed when people try to twist the facts to favor themselves. :):)

Aleeper21,

I am sympathetic towards your plight. A lot of people keep pointing toward your EW, but those EW folks did not manufacture your very expensive piece of electronics, which failed after just 1,000 hours of viewing. That is not even close to one year of average viewing time.

Extended Warranties are a manufacturer's best friend. The more people purchase them, the more product failures manufacturers avoid taking any recall or replacement pressure for.

An EW can be compared to Medical Malpractice Insurance, with one critical difference; The medical profession has to pay for it's coverage, where as the electronics patients have to purchase their own malpractice coverage. I bet Doctors would love to have that same deal. The patients would end up dealing with their insurance providers, and the doctors would avoid being held accountable.

If every one were to rely on the Extended Warranty approach, then why should a manufacturer of any expensive electronics even bother with trying to make products that are built to last beyond the manufacturer warranty period. After all; they would never be held accountable, because customer purchased extended warranties would be preventing all failures complaints from ever exposing the manufacturer to any major pressure to improve the durability of their products.

Aleeper21,

Extended Warranties are a manufacturer's best friend. The more people purchase them, the more product failures manufacturers avoid taking any recall or replacement pressure for.

An EW can be compared to Medical Malpractice Insurance, with one critical difference; The medical profession has to pay for it's coverage, where as the electronics patients have to purchase their own malpractice coverage. I bet Doctors would love to have that same deal. The patients would end up dealing with their insurance providers, and the doctors would avoid being held accountable.


I agree and sympathize with Aleeper21. I am kind of surprised to see many view it as "**** happens, electronics fail; get over it". After spending 6k on a TV and using it for 1000 hours anyone will (and should) expect some sort of help from the original manufacturer. I know a lot of people here like thier Pioneers - I too like their PQ and close to get one myself - but it would be natural to expect a superior quality when you are paying that much premium. Ofcourse everyone knows that electronics fail - but not like 2 years after a 6k purchase.

My earlier CRT TV lasted for 15 years and is still going great when I moved it to garage and dont watch it anymore. According to Pioneer and Panasonic's press statements - their plasma technology is robust enough to expect same type of quality - and it might be to large extent but when there is an odd piece that breaks after a short time they should fix it and investigate if it indicate any systemic issues with other units as well. That's called customer service.

It's just common sense. My Pioneer warranty expired last June. If something failed after that, what would be an acceptable extension? Should they fix it for free if it fails 2 months later? 6 months? My truck's three-year warranty just expired last week, so I don't expect them to do anything for me if something goes wrong with it now. I suppose that's why they tried to sell me an extended warranty.

It's just common sense. My Pioneer warranty expired last June. If something failed after that, what would be an acceptable extension? Should they fix it for free if it fails 2 months later? 6 months? My truck's three-year warranty just expired last week, so I don't expect them to do anything for me if something goes wrong with it now. I suppose that's why they tried to sell me an extended warranty.


It's never about common sense with people that want it their way. Contracts and warranties mean nothing to them. They just want what they want and they will invent logic to support their position. As I said before what if Pioneer came to them after the sale asking for more money they would say that they have a contract on the price. Of course, contracts don't apply to them just everyone else. :)

Guys, my situation has nothing to do with Pioneer's warranty. It all about customer service in my situation. All warranties are contracts of adhesions. You either buy the unit or you don't. Does Pioneer sale different warranties so you can elect which one to go with your TV. Do you have a choice as to the length of the warranty. Why does Pioneer give you two years on Elites instead of one. Why isn't it 5 years. Who made the decision you or Pioneer? Richard said...I have seen then do accommodations up to 6 months out of warranty.

Omeletpants said:
It's your responsibility to understand the warranty limitations when you buy. 24 months means 24 months. That's the contract you have with them, just like they didn't come to your house after the sale and ask you for more money.




Omeletpants you are just not getting this are you. I never said Pioneer had any legal or contractual obligation to me for their defective unit. It's back to customer service. Not everytime it's out of warranty but in my unique situation I would have thought customer service would be paramount. Also see above about contracts of adhesion.

Your claim is solely against the EW company. I'm always amazed when people try to twist the facts to favor themselves. :):)

What facts are being twisted? Please explain. As far as the EW company, I spoke to them today for the first time almost a month after the unit failed. They were nice enough but had no idea what model Pro 607PU referenced. This was the model number on the repair order and on my receipt. Of course, PRO 1540 is the entire package e.g. panel, speakers and stand. Pro 607PU references the panel only. They thought my TV was a non-Elite as I suspected they would. No decision has been made. They are still investigating. Now you know why I didn't want to deal with the EW company. According to some that was what I bargained for when I spent $6500. (I was wrong the purchase price was more than I thought.)

Since it appears some of like to throw around the word "contract" let me quote some of the EW contract: WE (I) "replace the product with a Product with equivalent specifications or (II) reimburse you for the current market value of the Product with equivalent specifications or (III) reimburse you for the retail amount of the Product, less claims made, minus sales tax....

They also have the right to buyout the contract at the lesser of numbers (II) and (III) above. They define "current market value" of a "Product of equivalent specifications" as using a "fair analysis "... "using current manufacturers' and distributors' pricing on comparable products."

OK guys take a shot at interperting this language! Some questions to consider: Are we talking retail or wholesale market value? Where am I going to be able to purchase a unit at wholesale price? Equivalent specifications. What is "equivalent"? It's not defined in the contract! nor is "comparable product". :confused:

You still fault me for wanting Pioneer to step up to the plate in this situation. This EW contract is an adhesion contract and I never received a copy until this claim.

You keep trying to make this Pioneer's problem and responsibility. :eek: Their obligation was to give you 2 years of warranty and they met that obligation. They are done. For some reason, you are trying to make this their problem when you should be dealing exclusively with the EW company. It's your problem that YOU don't want to deal with the EW company. Then why did you buy an EW?

You keep throwing stuff in like it wasn't your expectation and a plasma shouldn't break down....... Unless this is your first electronics purchase, you should know these issues associated with component aging, yet you still are trying to twist this into Pioneer's problem.

wow, i'm not reading it that way. i think what he's trying to say is he spent 6K on a tv (top of the line) it's warranty has just expired and they seem to give a rats butt. i would think they would at least meet him half way or something. i know he has the ext warranty and all but you would think pioneer would at least try and help him out a bit(give him a discount on a new panel something). i know my wife's car was a couple of months past it's warranty ,but they worked with us and covered the repair problem and i will remember this the next time i go to purchase a vehicle (and no it was not an american car company) because even though the warranty was up by a couple months the manufacture stood behind it's product when the failure happened just past the warranty period. would i have ben mad if they wouldn't have covered it ,i'm not sure because we were below the mileage for the warranty and i felt it should have ben covered. now if it would have failed six months after or even four then i would not expect them to take care of it ,but a month or two after yes they should at least make some kind of effort to help. look at GM/chrysler they have ben making crappy cars for years and years and know it has caught up to them and they will be lucky to be around in a year or two. just my 2 cents

Omeletpants,
You just won't leave this alone will you. Don't you get it. Did you see the language in that contract. I am not going to continue to repeat myself when the answer to your questions are contained in my earlier explanations. Why don't you answer just one of my questions I have asked you to answer.

component aging

Oh, I am sorry I didn't know that The Elites were only built to last 25 months before they fail. I'll tell Pioneer of your diagnosis. I am sure they will appreciate your expertise. I am done with you...

Well speaking of GM. A couple of months after my warranty ran out on my new Trans Am, the transmission died. I was bummed. I went to my dealer. She called the field rep for Pontiac and gues what, they replaced it for free. No charge for parts or labor. My dealer said it was a fluke thing and they replaced it.
With that in mind GM sold me as a permanent customer. In fact I get virtually all my service work done with them.
My point is, that is the point aleeper is making.

Omeletpants,

Oh, I am sorry I didn't know that The Elites were only built to last 25 months before they fail. I'll tell Pioneer of your diagnosis. I am sure they will appreciate your expertise. I am done with you...

I'm sorry that you came here looking for sympathy and everyone to agree with you. Well, it doesn't work that way and people won't agree when you are wrong. The warranty is 24 months, so what don't you understand about that? All you have is bunch of "they should give me" and "I paid $6000 expecting" comments. But your expectations are not part of the deal. It's the conditions of the warranty that matters.

But it does still suck that such an expensive pdp would fail 'so' quickly.
I know if I dropped about that much on a 151 and it died in 25 months I'd be pissed....whether deservedly so or not.
And so would others including some in this thread.

There was an interesting post saying that non-use can lead to severly early failure of electronic equipment....never heard that before.

Omeletpants,
You just won't leave this alone will you. Don't you get it. Did you see the language in that contract. I am not going to continue to repeat myself when the answer to your questions are contained in my earlier explanations. Why don't you answer just one of my questions I have asked you to answer.

component aging

Oh, I am sorry I didn't know that The Elites were only built to last 25 months before they fail. I'll tell Pioneer of your diagnosis. I am sure they will appreciate your expertise. I am done with you...

If they don't care of you, should not purchase a Pioneer product again. What has happen to this man could happen to anyone and its good that he's spreading the word.

I'm sorry that you came here looking for sympathy and everyone to agree with you. Well, it doesn't work that way and people won't agree when you are wrong. The warranty is 24 months, so what don't you understand about that? All you have is bunch of "they should give me" and "I paid $6000 expecting" comments. But your expectations are not part of the deal. It's the conditions of the warranty that matters.

I am sorry but I gotta agree with Omelet on this one.

I totally Understand that its really crappy that the Tv broke down right after the warranty ran out.
That is a sad thing, but its just part of how electronics work.
Parts fail. And you can't predict it.

This is why a warranty is provided.

But The warranty is only good for the specified time. And in this case it was 2years.
If its 2 years + 1 or 2 weeks, then Its not covered no matter how you put it or how unfortunate it is that the TV broke like that.
Also, Pioneer is not at fault in any way for this.
Nor are they obligated to cover anything.
And if they refuse to fix the TV, Then you can't put blame on them or say they are a bad company for not fixing the TV.

There has to be a line drawn and that line is 2 years.
If they fix your TV (which they still might, just to go above and beyond), then whats to stop someone who had thier TV for 3 years that broke from wanting thier TV fixed? They are in the same situation as you, The Tv should have lasted longer than 3 years for them also.
But thats not how warrantys work.

And really, since you have an extended warranty anyway, why would you even call Pioneer in the first place?
You paid good money for the extended warranty, Put that money to use and have the extended warranty company do what you paid them to do.

PS, don't let the extended warranty company give you anything other than an elite. Name the features that the elites have and tell them that you bought the TV for those features and you that the replacement must be the same brand and have the same features.

wow this thread took 2 pages, Op Dont make it hard on your self. Its simple your warranty ran out, pioneer has no obligations, I understand that you paid top dollar quit your rant about pioneer should be taking care of their customers, get over it, They can be courtious about it and service it, Not suprisinsly pioneer Has helped out "out of warranty" customers.

So

Call pioneer back try to ask ask and hope for repairs,

Or definitly use your EW

and quit making a post after post about how pioneer should/should not treat their customers.

i dont want to sound like a prick but dont you think it sounds a bit childish to just be saying "i paid top dollar for my 6k tv" and "i want for pioneer to service it" or "i expect this top tv to last a while"

just get over it call and ask pioneer for a solution and heck nothings lost you have EW!!!

worse comes to worse, your EW doesnt do anything (unlikely) pioneer doesnt do anything (very likely) sh*t happens move on get another tv, its out of contract service in warranty

If they don't care of you, should not purchase a Pioneer product again. What has happen to this man could happen to anyone and its good that he's spreading the word.

LOL.
what a crazy statement.

The Tv is no longer under warranty with Pioneer, they have no obligation to fix the TV.

Why does Pioneer have to go above and beyond thier obligations??

Does this only apply to Pioneer?
Or should all companys start fixing TV's out of warranty or face being banned now???

Does Pioneer send thier own Techs to work on thier TV's???

Or do they send a local authorized Pioneer repair company??

If they send a local repairman, then there is a chance that Pioneer would send the same guy that the extended warranty company will.

This is also a good lesson that you should watch your TV more. :) I mean, come on, 1000 hours in 28 months, that just over an hour a day! I say, run the hell out of that bugger, if there is a defect, it will show up sooner and hopefully within the warrenty period. :)

this is why you use break in disc or leave your brand new tv on.

that way if anything during the NON stop 7 days of action your tv either works or doesnt work.

granted it can break later but if a new tv is bound to break what a better way then under the 30 days of return/exchange policy?

This is also a good lesson that you should watch your TV more. :) I mean, come on, 1000 hours in 28 months, that just over an hour a day! I say, run the hell out of that bugger, if there is a defect, it will show up sooner and hopefully within the warrenty period. :)

I am sorry but I gotta agree with Omelet on this one.


Now I can die happy :D

this is why you use break in disc or leave your brand new tv on.

that way if anything during the NON stop 7 days of action your tv either works or doesnt work.

granted it can break later but if a new tv is bound to break what a better way then under the 30 days of return/exchange policy?

Is it safe to leave a plasma on for a week straight?

Will there be issues like overheating because I read on this forum that some plasmas can get pretty hot.

No! if anything like i explained in my last post, its a great way to test if your plasma has a bad power supply or any issues, I left my pioneer elite on for a week and some days NON stop turned on, So ask your self i didnt worry about a $5k tv that pretty much answers any concerns right?

Plasmas can get warm not hot, when you mean hot like hot enough to cause a fire? to get burn? yeah right:rolleyes: warm enough to say "hey i can feel that its warm" sure yeah after hours of hours of hours of usuage

Is it safe to leave a plasma on for a week straight?

Will there be issues like overheating because I read on this forum that some plasmas can get pretty hot.

. Does Pioneer sale different warranties so you can elect which one to go with your TV. Do you have a choice as to the length of the warranty. Why does Pioneer give you two years on Elites instead of one. Why isn't it 5 years. Who made the decision you or Pioneer?

Actually pioneer does offer different warranties...
-Non Elite products get a 1 yr warranty
-Elite products get a 2 yr warranty
-Gray market product(not bought from authorized dealers) are not warrantied by pioneer.

Would you feel better if your panel had a 12 month warranty and it failed at 25 months? Would you still expect pioneer to step up and warranty it then?

The decision on what warranty to offer is a factor of many things... research on components, costs involved, comparative products and their manufacturer's warranty, etc.

Call pioneer back try to ask ask and hope for repairs,

I did 3 times.

Why does Pioneer have to go above and beyond thier obligations??

They don't. I started the thread asking whether they should. Some of you think they should others don't . Those that don't, I respect your opinion but respect mine and allow me to share what has happened to me with others. If you don't like it don't read the thread.

Or should all companys start fixing TV's out of warranty or face being banned now???

Of course not. I stated earlier that mine was a unique situation given the demise of the TV in such a short period of time. Frankly, I will never buy a Pioneer product again. I am sure they could care less. Not buying their product is the only thing I can do to show my displeasure with their product. As I stated earlier this is the second Elite I have had that has had problems.

and quit making a post after post about how pioneer should/should not treat their customers.

Why, because you don't like it. Who sounds childish? If you don't like it don't read the thread.

And if they refuse to fix the TV, Then you can't put blame on them or say they are a bad company for not fixing the TV.

Sure I can. They sold me a crappy product. I know it wasn't their intent and for the last time I never said they had a legal obligation to fix anything. I just want people to know that this could happen to them. I don't want them to hate Pioneer or even stop buying Pioneer products. I'll share the information and people can make their own decision. Those that don't agree that is fine....don't read the thread. You know what it is about so why do you post?

And really, since you have an extended warranty anyway, why would you even call Pioneer in the first place?
You paid good money for the extended warranty, Put that money to use and have the extended warranty company do what you paid them to do.

As I indicated early on I bought the TV from Sound Advice and they went out of business. I was never sent an EW contract so I had no idea who the warranty company was or even if it existed. Thus, I called Pioneer for help. They were able to give me a number that led me to no where. The rep told me many people had been calling them who had purchased their products from Sound Advice. I called all the service reps in my area on Pioneer's web site and tracked down the warranty company.

PS, don't let the extended warranty company give you anything other than an elite. Name the features that the elites have and tell them that you bought the TV for those features and you that the replacement must be the same brand and have the same features.

Did you read the language in the EW contract I indicated in the last post? I will but I am all to familiar with claims so I expect a run around although I am hoping for the best. What do you suggest if The EW company doesn't provide me with a refund for the market value of an Elite? One joker said I should be thankful If I receive a 9th generation Pioneer(non Elite). Do you agree? If not, what do you suggest I do. Those that want me to make an EW claim and leave Pioneer alone seem to be lacking in any constructive comment about my dealings with the EW.

I'm sorry that you came here looking for sympathy and everyone to agree with you. Well, it doesn't work that way and people won't agree when you are wrong. The warranty is 24 months, so what don't you understand about that? All you have is bunch of "they should give me" and "I paid $6000 expecting" comments. But your expectations are not part of the deal. It's the conditions of the warranty that matters.

Omeletpants, I really can't imagine what goes through your mind. Expectations are always part of the deal in retail sales. Does that mean I can force Pioneer in a court of law to fix or replace my TV. Of course not. Please read that again as you seem to be missing the point of my entire thread. You love to take a word or two and make some silly comment. The word you chose to misrepresent only dealt with my expectations in purchasing the TV. It doesn't mean that Pioneer should change their
policies and make an exception because of my expectations. To me they didn't meet my expectations and I expected more out of them in this situation. Everyone has an expectation of what they want out of a product whether it be quality, longevity or durability. I was sharing my thoughts with another member which you chose to rudley interpret. You are who you are. Again answer the question. Do you work for or are you associated with Pioneer. Lastly, you are in the minority view.

There has to be a line drawn and that line is 2 years.
If they fix your TV (which they still might, just to go above and beyond), then whats to stop someone who had thier TV for 3 years that broke from wanting thier TV fixed? They are in the same situation as you, The Tv should have lasted longer than 3 years for them also.
But thats not how warrantys work.

Chadmak09

I really am not getting my point across to some of you. You, omeletpants and Zivman keep harping on the warranty. I know, I know that the warranty is two years and I have no legal basis to ask Pioneer to do anything. There is no bright line test as to how many times or at what point Pioneer steps up to the plate for customer service. Because they do it for one doesn't mean they have to do it for someone else. I was asking whether Pioneer for the sake of customer service should step up and take care of my situation. Anyone in the same boat as I should receive some help from Pioneer because of customer service not any legal obligation they have as a result of the warranty. The warranty has nothing to do with this except to the extent it helps some of you justify Pioneer's lack of assitance.

Thanks guys....I'll let you know what happens next. I appreciate your comments. Even yours Omeletpants....LOL;)

period. This is also a good lesson that you should watch your TV more. I mean, come on, 1000 hours in 28 months, that just over an hour a day! I say, run the hell out of that bugger, if there is a defect, it will show up sooner and hopefully within the warrenty

srgilbert,
I have. I didn't know this would matter. There isn't anything in the manual about this. On hindsight it makes sense but you obviously have more knowledge than I about the technical aspects of the Plasma TV. I guess I should have hung out more on this forum. By the way, it was 1000 hours in 25 months.:)

Zivman stated:
Actually pioneer does offer different warranties...
-Non Elite products get a 1 yr warranty
-Elite products get a 2 yr warranty
-Gray market product(not bought from authorized dealers) are not warrantied by pioneer.

My point was do you have a choice. Your examples don't give the customer a choice. Does the customer who buys a non Elite TV have the option to upgrade the length of their warranty to two years? They offer different lengths of warranties or no warranty at all for certain TV models. Again seems like a contract of adhesion. NO bargaining power whatsoever. What every TV company should do is start by offering their own extended warranties at an additional cost. At that point give the customer a choice as to the type of coverage they can purchase. Insurance companies do it all the time. Do you have an idea why they don't?

[B] Do you work for or are you associated with Pioneer. Lastly, you are in the minority view.



I have never had any connection with this industry. Actually, Chad and I are not in the minority view if you read the number of replies. Even if that were the case, minority opinions don't make them wrong opinions.

Many people come to this forum with stories in order to gain support for their position. They are often disappointed in the responses. I'm actually sorry to hear about your experience, but we just don't agree who is responsible and how we would react. :)

Zivman asked:
Would you feel better if your panel had a 12 month warranty and it failed at 25 months? Would you still expect pioneer to step up and warranty it then?

Good question. YES, I would feel better. They still would have sold me a crappy product. However, I wouldn't expect them to warrant the TV. Didn't expect that answer did you? :) As I said, my views are based on my specific factual scenario.

Zivman stated:
The decision on what warranty to offer is a factor of many things... research on components, costs involved, comparative products and their manufacturer's warranty, etc.

You mean the length of the warranty. Isn't the coverage the same just the length differs with the type of TV. Cheaper TVs likley to break sooner than more expensive TVs. That is what it really is about. Again no choice at all!

Calling 3 times is not much of a pushing for it, call and be pursitant, talk to higher level csr/managements have they hear you,

a basic step csr isnt going to care but if you eleveate this to a higher step by "asking" not treating/blaming(not that you are)

but lets say you are speaking to a higher acess/level csr who may understand that a month or so past the warranty period is acklnowledge(sorry for misspell) but if they can see to it if anything can be done.

just keep on trying.

try talking that to some that are deep insiders with pioneer theirs quite a few on this website.

No! if anything like i explained in my last post, its a great way to test if your plasma has a bad power supply or any issues, I left my pioneer elite on for a week and some days NON stop turned on, So ask your self i didnt worry about a $5k tv that pretty much answers any concerns right?

Plasmas can get warm not hot, when you mean hot like hot enough to cause a fire? to get burn? yeah right:rolleyes: warm enough to say "hey i can feel that its warm" sure yeah after hours of hours of hours of usuage

I think electronics are more prone to fail due to switching them on and off more frequently than simply leaving them on.

Well speaking of GM. A couple of months after my warranty ran out on my new Trans Am, the transmission died. I was bummed. I went to my dealer. She called the field rep for Pontiac and gues what, they replaced it for free. No charge for parts or labor. My dealer said it was a fluke thing and they replaced it.
With that in mind GM sold me as a permanent customer. In fact I get virtually all my service work done with them.
My point is, that is the point aleeper is making.

Exactly.

But it does still suck that such an expensive pdp would fail 'so' quickly.
I know if I dropped about that much on a 151 and it died in 25 months I'd be pissed....whether deservedly so or not.
And so would others including some in this thread.

There was an interesting post saying that non-use can lead to severly early failure of electronic equipment....never heard that before.

Most definitely it sucks and I would hope everyone who disagrees with asleeper rolls with the punches as well as they expect him to when a $6,000 "Elite" tv that craps out on them after only 1,000 hours and a just a wee bit after the warranty expires.

Zivman stated:
Actually pioneer does offer different warranties...
-Non Elite products get a 1 yr warranty
-Elite products get a 2 yr warranty
-Gray market product(not bought from authorized dealers) are not warrantied by pioneer.

My point was do you have a choice. Your examples don't give the customer a choice. Does the customer who buys a non Elite TV have the option to upgrade the length of their warranty to two years? They offer different lengths of warranties or no warranty at all for certain TV models. Again seems like a contract of adhesion. NO bargaining power whatsoever. What every TV company should do is start by offering their own extended warranties at an additional cost. At that point give the customer a choice as to the type of coverage they can purchase. Insurance companies do it all the time. Do you have an idea why they don't?

With cocktail in hand and Pink Floyd on the ears, I've decided to weigh in here. No dog in this disgruntled debate, and I really see both sides of the argument. Both are correct, but with one side having more legal legitimacy to their argument...unfortunately it ain't you, aleeper. Usually when someone ask me about buying expensive electronic gear, I usually tell them it's very important to buy from a reputable source. That way, if the product goes sideways the store itself will usually rectify the problem.

Aleeper, in your particular case, the damn store went bankrupt and closed its doors. Bummer. Now, it is you, the lone buyer, that has to deal w/an issue rather than an unhappy customer that spent over $6K+ at a store that aims to please & buys a boatload of Pioneer products from the Mfg'er every year. You see, you are really in a bad spot as far as collecting from the Mfg. It's usually the STORE that will do this for you. On top of all that, you're the unlucky soul that happen-chance bought a lemon, which of course the Store would most likely rectify.

Not all is lost though if you do this right. First & last, you should NEVER threaten a Mfg. w/lawsuits or speak to reps in a harsh manner. It will get the door closed in your face fast & quick. It's entirely up to you to deprive yourself of the very best displays on the planet, but to say "I'll never buy another Pioneer again" will not get you what you want. Go back to charm school and don't loose your cool when speaking to Pioneer reps. Cajole and crawl your way past the "gatekeepers" and get to a person on the managerial position to state your case. You'd be surprised what a little cordial speaking does to your efforts compared to the threatening lawsuit manner of speech or ranting over a phone from some jerk asking for compensations they aren't legally entitled. ANY time you speak to Pioneer, be on your best behavior. Remember, you're not legally in the right, nor or you entitled to anything from Pioneer. Period. You are simply making a "bereavement" request & a special Customer Service request based on the early demise of your beloved 1540, that unfortunately & suddenly expired before its time..."Shine on you crazy diamond":D

PS: Bet 2:1 that Service Tech repairs your TV & sells it at an enormous profit. JMHO!!!!!

Well, as someone noted, folks have been disappointed with Pioneer's response in the past.

Some folks will say that your saying "I will never buy Pioneer again" isn't going to matter to a big company like Pioneer.

Well, eventually all those solitary people add up.

And while there were many market factors at work, ultimately not enough people were willing to pay Pioneer a premium for Pioneer quality.

Perhaps if Pioneer had more of a step up to the plate attitude people would have felt they really were getting something extra for the extra money.

I don't know for sure, and all we can do is speculate.

But what I do know, is that you are only out a few grand. Pioneer is out hundreds of millions and will be no longer making plasma glass.

I'm sure there is a message in there somewhere.

Oh, and it has been my observation -- not with Pioneer mind you, just companies in general -- that they are more than willing to step up for the small-money repair. And this no doubt builds a lot of good will and folks eager to tell you that ACME Company stands behind their products. But when you're talking $4,400.00? The dates on the warranty card, "misuse", and other fine-print words, suddenly have great meaning.

Anyone in the same boat as I should receive some help from Pioneer because of customer service not any legal obligation they have as a result of the warranty. The warranty has nothing to do with this except to the extent it helps some of you justify Pioneer's lack of assitance.



How can you repeatedly keep saying that Pioneer has some moral obligation to help you? And then to go so far as to say should help anyone in the same boat as you? Pioneer has no legal (contract) or moral (customer service) obligation to you.

What you fail to acknowledge is that electronics fail. It is unfortunate, but that is the way of the world.

[B]Zivman stated:
Actually pioneer does offer different warranties...
-Non Elite products get a 1 yr warranty
-Elite products get a 2 yr warranty
-Gray market product(not bought from authorized dealers) are not warrantied by pioneer.

My point was do you have a choice. Your examples don't give the customer a choice. Does the customer who buys a non Elite TV have the option to upgrade the length of their warranty to two years? They offer different lengths of warranties or no warranty at all for certain TV models. Again seems like a contract of adhesion. NO bargaining power whatsoever. What every TV company should do is start by offering their own extended warranties at an additional cost. At that point give the customer a choice as to the type of coverage they can purchase. Insurance companies do it all the time. Do you have an idea why they don't?

You are wrong. You ALWAYS have a choice. You could choose to buy the gray market panel and supplement with an aftermarket warranty of your choice... or buy elite and get the longest manufacturer's warranty..... or not buy any of the panels because of the warranties offered. As far as the TV company offering customized warranties, well, some do. The argument to that is, they are in the business of manufacturing TVs, not insurance type products.

Edit:
What makes this worse is that you had the easiest choice of all; where to buy the panel from. Your desicion to buy from sound advice and then buying the extended warranty without going over the details of it was a bad choice on your behalf. You then keep throwing out CONTRACT OF ADHESION.... which may or may not be the case, but sound advice didn't force your hand into buying the EW, nor did pioneer force your hand buying the PDP and the included warranty on it. It was your choice. You could have easily looked at both the warranty on the TV and on the fine print on EW and walked out of the store with your cash in your pocket. Instead, you bought the pdp, bought the EW and come on a forum and piss and moan about contract of adhesion and what pioneer should and shouldn't do when they have no legal or moral obligation to do anything in terms of repairing your pdp.




Good question. YES, I would feel better. They still would have sold me a crappy product. However, I wouldn't expect them to warrant the TV. Didn't expect that answer did you? :)



Actually, yes, that is the exact answer I expected based on how irrational and illogical your previous statements/posts have been

Actually, yes, that is the exact answer I expected based on how irrational and illogical your previous statements/posts have been

Zivmn would you mind specifically stating what statments or posts were irrational or illogical. I would like a fair opportunity to respond. It would seem my point all along is consistent with answering your question the way I did.

How can you repeatedly keep saying that Pioneer has some moral obligation to help you? And then to go so far as to say should help anyone in the same boat as you? Pioneer has no legal (contract) or moral (customer service) obligation to you.

Zivmn you just don't get it. You keep ranting and raving (I decided to use your terms) about what legal and moral obligations Pioneer has or doesn't have. You disagree with me that is fine but I wonder if you have been in the same situation. If you have and walked away then more power to you. If you haven't how can you sit here on your high horse and tell me the customer is just screwed and they shouldn't feel slighted or have expectations Pioneer should do something. Well, they are my expectations that is all that matters. I never said you had to agree with me and frankly I could care less what your opinion is other that to get into some friendly discourse.

You are wrong. You ALWAYS have a choice. You could choose to buy the gray market panel and supplement with an aftermarket warranty of your choice... or buy elite and get the longest manufacturer's warranty..... or not buy any of the panels because of the warranties offered. As far as the TV company offering customized warranties, well, some do. The argument to that is, they are in the business of manufacturing TVs, not insurance type products.

Again the choice is not to buy or not to buy a warranty or a TV. You and others scream that Pioneer has no contractual obligation to do anything once the warranty expires and you are correct. The fact of the matter having the choice as to the length of the contract isn't a choice at all. You are stuck with the warranty they give you if you want to buy the TV. Your statment that the customer has a choice to buy or not to buy an Elite if they want a longer warranty is absolutley incredible. I am sure the average customer makes the decision to the spend the extra thousands of dollars for the Elite because of that two year warranty. If that was the case wouldn't it make more sense for them to buy a cheaper panel and then buy the EW that extends out to 5 years. You talk about illogical. The simple answer is that customers don't make decisions to buy a TV because of the length of the warranty. Sure that may enter into their decision making process but generally it's just icing on the cake. Similarly, if you want to buy a gray market product are you able to dictate or have a choice in the contractual terms of the warranty? I don't know what a gray market product is....how many customers do!!! You give me one specific example where a consumer who wants to purchase a TV is allowed to modify or have input into the warranty language. Also, give me some examples of the customizable warranties you mention. How are they customizable? What policy laguage can a customer change or have a choice to elect. I am sure you have read them. It sounds like you work in the industry and are much more familiar with warranties than the average customer. I doubt they do at all. The warranties are there to protect the companies while offering the cheapest way possible for them to meet the demands of their customers when the products fail. That is not to say this is bad or wrong it simply is business.

When is the last time a customer that you know of read the warranty prior to the purchase. If they did do you know if they even understood the language. If they did understand, were they a lawyer or someone who was in the industry. To say a customer's choice as to which TV to buy is based on the form warranty the manufaturer or EW provides is simply not realistic. Also, your reasoning is both simplistic and not on point. I was never talking about the choice to buy or not to buy a TV. The assumption is you will buy the TV of your choice regardless of the warranty language. ALSO, DO YOU REALLY think the customer expects the d_mn thing to fail???

I'l go back to my original statment that the waranties are nothing more than contracts of adhesions. Look the term up if you have a doubt as to what it means. Otherwise please stop with this nonsense about people having choices about the warranty.

I am not sure how so much vitriol has developed against the OP. I empathize. I just bought an elite, if it broke 5 weeks after the warranty expired and everyone was telling me to pound sand, I would be upset too. I mean, do we expect the OP to be "happy?" Its a bad situation, and I wish him well with it.

Because you don't read the warranty it's their fault? :eek:

After reading this thread I am amazed at all of the attacks on your position.

But having been in business for quite a while I do believe that Pioneer should make it right for nothing other than "goodwill". Their entire marketing strategy is that they make a superior product that everyone should aspire to own.

People want to talk about it being out of warranty - so what. I could believe it if it was LG or some other 3rd tier brand - but an Elite.

Pioneer is within their rights to refuse to warrant their product but it appears stupid to me.

As was previously suggested contact Pioneer service again and ask for a supervisor. Ask him for his help as you are becoming very frustrated. Describe why you bought an Elite and what your expectations were. Have a written list prepared that describes your problems and go over them. Again ask for his help. If necessary refer him to this forum.

Write a letter to Pioneer detailing all of the responses along with listing times and names of service people.

Legally their right - business wise I don't think their smart.

I am sorry but I gotta agree with Omelet on this one.

.Now I can die happy :D


Just in case you took it the wrong way,

When I said "I am sorry but I gotta agree with omelet on this one", I didn't mean that I am sorry that I have to agree with you.

I meant that "I am sorry " to the OP because he will not agree. :)

People want to talk about it being out of warranty - so what. I could believe it if it was LG or some other 3rd tier brand - but an Elite.



I just don't get why so many think that Pioneer is supposed to go beyond thier specified warranty. What makes then so special that they should have to do this?

I mean, you just said it yourself, LG or some other brand shouldn't have to but Pioneer should.

Who cares about how much it cost. Thats not relevant to the issue.

the issue is that the warranty is expired. End of story.

I know this is a little far fetched but within say 25 months you put on 1000 hours which is about a little over an hour a day which seems like nothing. Now my question to you is you spent $6000 just to have something you barely put use into. Within the two years Pioneer would expect MANY more hours. Had you put on those hours like many would within two months then they very possibly would've caught that much earlier. This isn't trying to place blame on you but a heads up with any electronic device is to USE it to make sure it works. People commonly don't buy EW because most flaws show up with use within the original warranty which yours didn't because you used the merchandise very little. You bought the EW as insurance and you try to say you don't intend to use insurance. Well I didn't plan to total my car, but I did and insurance paid for it. It is there for a reason so use it and accept what happens. With the economy in its state there aren't going to be the same kind gestures constantly going on. This can happen with ANY product, I am sorry it happened to you, but step into the shoes of everyone else in your situation, it doesn't seem crazy what you're asking, but it's certainly understandable not to help you.

I hope you get everything worked out, but you got your piece of mind EW, now take your mind and use a piece of it to get the issue resolved as quick as you can.

I just don't get why so many think that Pioneer is supposed to go beyond thier specified warranty. What makes then so special that they should have to do this?

I mean, you just said it yourself, LG or some other brand shouldn't have to but Pioneer should.

Who cares about how much it cost. Thats not relevant to the issue.

the issue is that the warranty is expired. End of story.

+1 here. Pretty cut and dry situation.

cajiboy stated: Not all is lost though if you do this right. First & last, you should NEVER threaten a Mfg. w/lawsuits or speak to reps in a harsh manner. It will get the door closed in your face fast & quick. It's entirely up to you to deprive yourself of the very best displays on the planet, but to say "I'll never buy another Pioneer again" will not get you what you want. Go back to charm school and don't loose your cool when speaking to Pioneer reps. Cajole and crawl your way past the "gatekeepers" and get to a person on the managerial position to state your case. You'd be surprised what a little cordial speaking does to your efforts compared to the threatening lawsuit manner of speech or ranting over a phone from some jerk asking for compensations they aren't legally entitled. ANY time you speak to Pioneer, be on your best behavior. Remember, you're not legally in the right, nor or you entitled to anything from Pioneer. Period. You are simply making a "bereavement" request & a special Customer Service request based on the early demise of your beloved 1540, that unfortunately & suddenly expired before its time..."Shine on you crazy diamond":D

Thanks for the input. When I spoke to Pioneer I don't think I was ever rude or ever mentioned or otherwise suggested a lawsuit was forthcoming. (I mentioned that earlier in the thread as I was concerned about the EW company not Pioneer.)

I agree with you and I don't think I have said anything in this thread to indicate otherwise. I simply have very little experience in dealing with these matters and I think I haven't made myself very clear with some of the posts. Then again some people just like to jump on someone when they have misfortune.

Just so it is clear to everyone. I am an attorney so I am very aware of my legal rights as it pertains to Pioneer and the EW company. I've stood enough in front of juries to know litigation is usully not the answer. Also, I think I have a fair ability to read an insurance policy and a contract. My perspective as a result may be different from some of the others who have posted on this thread. And for those who disagree with me and think I am a complete idiot(you may be right) no hard feelings as it was all just fun in the end. I have had many worse things written to me or at me than those I have received here. After all some of the biggest jerks are in my profession. Hopefully I haven't come off as one of them. If I have I apologize to all.

The status of my claim if anyone cares is still with the EW company. I have given up for now with Pioneer as it is an EW issue for now. If I do go back to them I will try to escalate the matter as you mentioned. I had a nice chat with a lady at Pioneer yesterday about the specs for my TV. She was helpful but I haven't received the email she promised.

Oh, and it has been my observation -- not with Pioneer mind you, just companies in general -- that they are more than willing to step up for the small-money repair. And this no doubt builds a lot of good will and folks eager to tell you that ACME Company stands behind their products. But when you're talking $4,400.00? The dates on the warranty card, "misuse", and other fine-print words, suddenly have great meaning.

Mine as well. In my practice I deal with a lot of claims people. I have personally seen this type of thing occur. Pioneer isn't the issue in this case but the EW company certainly may be.

cajieboy: PS: Bet 2:1 that Service Tech repairs your TV & sells it at an enormous profit. JMHO!!!!!

I've had a difficult time peaking with someone at the EW. I've called several times and I was able to speak with a nice young lady once. She didn't know the panel part was for an Elite. She intially said they would replace the TV as the $4400 repair cost was more than what a comparable TV could be purchased new. Here is where it gets interesting. She told me after I explained the panel was for an Elite and there was no way a comparable TV could be purchased for less than $4400. She indicated she would have to talk to her boss. I called her back after speaking with the lady at Pioneer and left a message with her voice mail that Pioneer's panel number PRO607PU was for the PRO1540. Two more calls were placed today and she did call me back and left a message that they had authorized the repairs

I wasn't able to speak with her again but if this is the case they now know that it will be more costly for them to replace the TV than to have it repaired. If that is the case and it works then I am fine with this.

IF it was only this easy. Of course I know now, as I suspected from the beginning that the intial repair tech didn't know it was an Elite. (I am not sure why not). Remember,he was the one who told the EW company the replacement was less than the repairs.

So what do I do? I call the tech knowing there is a distinct possibility he disposed of my TV. I tell him the TV was an Elite and they want to repair the TV. He tells me the EW company indicated to him to dispose of the TV on Jan. 21. He has notes to that affect but nothing in writing from EW company. He says the TV was in a wharehouse waiting for disposal and that The EW company may have already picked it up.

I told him he needed to find out ASAP. He also started talking about the replace ment of the TV and asked what a comparable TV was and I indicated a PRO 151.

So where the heck is my TV? I can't believe this! Maybe it will turn out OK. The sad thing is that I now must go into lawyer mode and protect myself immediatley before they start damage control.

I just don't get why so many think that Pioneer is supposed to go beyond their specified warranty. What makes then so special that they should have to do this?

I mean, you just said it yourself, LG or some other brand shouldn't have to but Pioneer should.

Who cares about how much it cost. Thats not relevant to the issue.

the issue is that the warranty is expired. End of story.

Then maybe they should change their name to sort of Elite! Like I said business sense.

I've been in sales for half of my life and "never once" has the company refused to warranty a product that had an unusual failure- not simple wear. I think you should agree if you think Elite is a superior product and disagree if you thing they are a piece of ......

The adage in sales is "The customer is not always right, but he is always the customer."

But it is all about how you talk to them.

What surprises me is that we haven't seen the Elite vendors commenting on this issue.

Just in case you took it the wrong way,

When I said "I am sorry but I gotta agree with omelet on this one", I didn't mean that I am sorry that I have to agree with you.

I meant that "I am sorry " to the OP because he will not agree. :)

No issue. I know what you meant and actually like reading your thoughts. :)

Then maybe they should change their name to sort of Elite! Like I said business sense.

I've been in sales for half of my life and "never once" has the company refused to warranty a product that had an unusual failure- not simple wear. I think you should agree if you think Elite is a superior product and disagree if you thing they are a piece of ......

That was the point of my GM story. I'm surprised Pioneer didn't want to meet him at least half way. Most companies would do at least that.

I've been in sales for half of my life and "never once" has the company refused to warranty a product that had an unusual failure- not simple wear. .

And if the warranty was not expired then I am sure Pioneer would fix it no matter if it is an unusual failure or a usual one.

The whole point is that the warranty is expired.

After reading this thread I am amazed at all of the attacks on your position.

But having been in business for quite a while I do believe that Pioneer should make it right for nothing other than "goodwill". Their entire marketing strategy is that they make a superior product that everyone should aspire to own.

People want to talk about it being out of warranty - so what. I could believe it if it was LG or some other 3rd tier brand - but an Elite.

Pioneer is within their rights to refuse to warrant their product but it appears stupid to me.

As was previously suggested contact Pioneer service again and ask for a supervisor. Ask him for his help as you are becoming very frustrated. Describe why you bought an Elite and what your expectations were. Have a written list prepared that describes your problems and go over them. Again ask for his help. If necessary refer him to this forum.

Write a letter to Pioneer detailing all of the responses along with listing times and names of service people.

Legally their right - business wise I don't think their smart.

+1 to that.

Why isn't it smart business-wise? Pioneer would give a guy something with $4500 of value. He would continue to tell his story about how he was abused but eventually got his way. How is this smart for Pioneer?

Zivmn would you mind specifically stating what statments or posts were irrational or illogical. I would like a fair opportunity to respond. It would seem my point all along is consistent with answering your question the way I did.

It's irrational for you to state pioneer should do something for you.... whether or not they have a legal or moral obligation to do so.
moral = customer service
legal = warranty contract



Zivmn you just don't get it. You keep ranting and raving (I decided to use your terms) about what legal and moral obligations Pioneer has or doesn't have. You disagree with me that is fine but I wonder if you have been in the same situation. If you have and walked away then more power to you. If you haven't how can you sit here on your high horse and tell me the customer is just screwed and they shouldn't feel slighted or have expectations Pioneer should do something. Well, they are my expectations that is all that matters. I never said you had to agree with me and frankly I could care less what your opinion is other that to get into some friendly discourse.

Currently I have an $1100 pioneer elite receiver being serviced at local pioneer authorized repair shop under warranty. The unit had issues after about 12 months of use. The receiver has been there since 10/15/08 and has MULTIPLE components replaced... one board has been replaced 3 times alone. Pioneer refuses to replace the unit until they have replaced every component in the unit. we are down to the remaining 2 boards. By stating this, I am not complaining about, nor praising the warranty process. I am merely informing you I have had experience similar to yours



Again the choice is not to buy or not to buy a warranty or a TV. You and others scream that Pioneer has no contractual obligation to do anything once the warranty expires and you are correct. The fact of the matter having the choice as to the length of the contract isn't a choice at all. You are stuck with the warranty they give you if you want to buy the TV. Your statment that the customer has a choice to buy or not to buy an Elite if they want a longer warranty is absolutley incredible. I am sure the average customer makes the decision to the spend the extra thousands of dollars for the Elite because of that two year warranty. If that was the case wouldn't it make more sense for them to buy a cheaper panel and then buy the EW that extends out to 5 years. You talk about illogical. The simple answer is that customers don't make decisions to buy a TV because of the length of the warranty. Sure that may enter into their decision making process but generally it's just icing on the cake. Similarly, if you want to buy a gray market product are you able to dictate or have a choice in the contractual terms of the warranty? I don't know what a gray market product is....how many customers do!!! You give me one specific example where a consumer who wants to purchase a TV is allowed to modify or have input into the warranty language. Also, give me some examples of the customizable warranties you mention. How are they customizable? What policy laguage can a customer change or have a choice to elect. I am sure you have read them. It sounds like you work in the industry and are much more familiar with warranties than the average customer. I doubt they do at all. The warranties are there to protect the companies while offering the cheapest way possible for them to meet the demands of their customers when the products fail. That is not to say this is bad or wrong it simply is business.

^ that right there is irrational... Pioneer is not in the business of offering warranties/insurance. They are in the business of building electronics.

Whether you see the buying vs not buying a choice, it is a choice. The fact you don't see it as choice is irrational and illogical

As a customer you ALWAYS have a choice. You made multiple choices when you purchased your original PDP...
You chose to buy it a B&M store - sound advice
You chose what brand - Pioneer
You chose which model - Elite
You chose to purchase the EW....
Futher you chose not to read the details of that warranty
How can you say you have no choice?



When is the last time a customer that you know of read the warranty prior to the purchase.
That is the customer's fault....

If they did do you know if they even understood the language.
Again, the fault of the customer

If they did understand, were they a lawyer or someone who was in the industry.
Not sure, haven't done a formal survey of customers and their backgrounds in relation to their understanding of warranties on electronics they have purchased

To say a customer's choice as to which TV to buy is based on the form warranty the manufaturer or EW provides is simply not realistic.
Why is this not realistic? The warranty offered definitely impacts a person's purchasing decision. Maybe it didn't impact your purchase because you didn't read or potentially didn't understand the warranty


Also, your reasoning is both simplistic and not on point. I was never talking about the choice to buy or not to buy a TV. The assumption is you will buy the TV of your choice regardless of the warranty language.
Your choice is to buy or not to buy... and more specifically your choice to buy X tv or Y tv or no tv at all -> and YES the supplied warranties should impact this decision.

ALSO, DO YOU REALLY think the customer expects the d_mn thing to fail???

YES I DO... when I purchase something... a car, a watch, a TV I think about the life expectancy of the item and in turn the likely hood of that unit failing. If I think the item is likely (relatively speaking) to fail, I take into consideration repair/replacement costs and look more closely at the supplied warranty in addition to the EW that are available




I'l go back to my original statment that the waranties are nothing more than contracts of adhesions. Look the term up if you have a doubt as to what it means. Otherwise please stop with this nonsense about people having choices about the warranty.

I actually did look the term up to ensure I didn't make false assumptions at its correct definition . :)

the way I look at it, if you feel they are contracts of adhesion, why did you buy the panel in the first place? Further, why did you dish out $900 for a contract of adhesion? It is clear you did not read or did not understand the warranties. Instead of asking questions to help your comprehension, you forked over the dough for the TV and then even more for an EW you didn't read or couldn't understand. Who's fault is that?

.... I forgot this is America; it's always someone else's fault

Chad
And if the warranty was not expired then I am sure Pioneer would fix it no matter if it is an unusual failure or a usual one.

With all due respect what does the type of failure have to do with whether Pioneer would cover the TV under warranty. I am sorry I am not getting your point. As you've said no warranty no fix( ok not exactly like that)

Who cares about how much it cost. Thats not relevant to the issue.

the issue is that the warranty is expired. End of story.

I agree from a strictly legal basis. I challenge anyone to show me in this thread where I said Pioneer had a legal obligation to fix this TV. I didn't period.

You can call it customer service or moral obligation(I don't think corporations have morals, emotions or any other human traits themselves) but that is beyond the point.

I agreee it should just say good business sense. In reading this thread it's clear that there are some major differences of opinions. Just so I am clear I am not trying to convince any of you of my position so those of you who want to read something into this other than what it is just stop.

I am curious, of those who are "strict constructionists", OP.Chad, Zivman, have you ever had anything similiar happen to you. Come on fess up. If you don't respond I'll assume you haven't. Don't get me wrong I am not saying you are wrong for having your views. I just think people's perspectives are shaped by their experiences good and bad. So let me know

OP:
Why isn't it smart business-wise? Pioneer would give a guy something with $4500 of value. He would continue to tell his story about how he was abused but eventually got his way. How is this smart for Pioneer?

Why do you think this would occur? Why wouldn't that individual be just, if not more likley to say what a stand up company Pioneer is when they had no legal obligation to fix or replace the TV?

Why do you think this would occur? Why wouldn't that individual be just, if not more likley to say what a stand up company Pioneer is when they had no legal obligation to fix or replace the TV?

See, Pioneer would then be out $4500. It's very easy to spend other people's money. Why don't you pick on the EW company, that's who your relationship is with now.

And if the warranty was not expired then I am sure Pioneer would fix it no matter if it is an unusual failure or a usual one.

The whole point is that the warranty is expired.

What I didn't clarify is the warranty had expired- some more than a year and we still fixed it. Premium product are expected to last.

Zivman,
I can guarantee I can read a contract and a warranty 20x better than you can. It's is what I have been doing for a living for 21 plus years. So before you make baseless accusations make sure you know what you are talking about. Whether I can or not read the contract wasn't the point but the point simply escapes your simple mind. I don't know what you do for a living but your assumptions are unfortunate and place you in a negative light.

You make baseless staments and when challenged you resort to childish actions. It is clear that you don't have an inkling of factual support for your position. You can't engage in any type of rational thought to support your positon other than to say it is everyones fault. It is sad as I thought you knew what you were talking about and could inform me of something I didn't know




Why don't you answer the questions directly instead of trying to blame everyone when you don't have a defensible position.

So what does "Contract of Adhesion" mean? You took the time to look it up at my request. So tell me why the manufacturer's warranty isn't a contract of adhesion. To say it is their fault because they didn't read a warranty that isn't provided is so ridiculous. Tell me how many of you read the warranties before you purchase the product. And if you do where to you obtain them. How many of you have negotiated with the companies to change a term of the waranty. Support your viewpoint ZIVMAN. I am giving you the opportunity to discus this with me without resorting to accusations and childish behavior.

How can you say you have no choice

You just don't get the point I was making. I have a choice to get out of bed in the morning does that mean I can change the terms of my mortgage. I bought a car does that mean I can change the terms of my warranty for that car. I financed my car does that mean I can change the terms of the finance agreement except as to rate, length and price. I chose(many years ago) to have sex with my wife and she got preganant. Does that mean I can change the terms with god and give my child back(ok maybe that was a poor example)

I will spell this out for you. POINT POINT: They are contracts of adhesion because you can not change the terms if you buy the product. Your only choice is not to buy the product period. In your simplistic mind that is a choice like chosing to sit on the toilet if you have to relieve yourself. You can dance around the issue all you want.

When it comes to the terms of these warranties you have no choice other than to not buy the product. I asked you for some examples of statements you made and you can't even give them to me.

YES I DO... when I purchase something... a car, a watch, a TV I think about the life expectancy of the item and in turn the likely hood of that unit failing. If I think the item is likely (relatively speaking) to fail, I take into consideration repair/replacement costs and If I think the item is likely (relatively speaking) to fail,
Thank you very much you just made my case. I never thought a $6500.00 Pioneer Elite Would fail. Remember expectations. Sure I purchase an EW on the slight chance small repairs would occur over time. I also purchased an EW for my PRO510 and it never had a problem in the warranty period. Your expectations in buying something : " If I think the item is likely (relatively speaking) to fail, I take into consideration repair/replacement costs and look more closely at the supplied warranty in addition to the EW that are available

Ok let's analyze that statment. If I think the item is likely (relatively speaking) to fail,(gotcha! Back to expectations) Do you think every product is going to fail so you look at all waranties or are there occasions you don't pay attention to warranties because you don't think its likely to fail. Go ahead and answer that! You know if you answer the latter you are proving my point again.(no expectation of failure. Thus warranty not as important. Why expect to fail after all an expensive TV called an Elite).

and look more closely at the supplied warranty in addition to the EW that are available
look more closely at the supplied warranty. What does that mean? My question was hoiw many customers read the warranties and then understand what they say.You never answer this question. Do you expect me to believe that you have the box opened and read what ever warranty is in the box. There is no warranty language contained in my manual. Do you print it off the intenet/ Do you contact Pioneer and ask them for a copy? Do they provide it to you. Do you obtain a sample boiler plate warranty from the dealer? Please explain yourself. I don't think you do any of these things. However, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Once you've "looked more closely" at the warranty have you once ever had them modify the tems of the aggreement? Of course not. That is why it is a contract of adhesion. You have no choice except to purchase or not purchase the product. That was my point all along and you want to make it a matter of whether you buy the TV. Why, because its a very simplistic view and skates the issue. "If you don't know the answer reframe the question". That is what you have done.

Whether I read the warranty is irrelvant to what I have been trying to say . I never said I didn't know the length of the warranty or Pioneer should have covered the product under the warranty. All I said was should Pioneer step up in my situation. Maybe they will. There have been some very good suggestions of what to do and I intend to follow them if necessary.

Let me ask you this. You seem to be awfully critical of people not reading the warranties and having the waranties form a basis of their buying decision. From your tone it appears you may be in the retail sales of electronics. Is that true?


And I can't resist:

When is the last time a customer that you know of read the warranty prior to the purchase.
That is the customer's fault.... NO ANSWER! How about: "I can't think of one". No you'd make my point!! :rolleyes:

If they did do you know if they even understood the language.
Again, the fault of the customer NO ANSWER! How about "Don't know because I can't identify one who read the warranty before purchase" Again you'd make my point that you have no factual support for your baseless statements :rolleyes:

If they did understand, were they a lawyer or someone who was in the industry.
Not sure, haven't done a formal survey of customers and their backgrounds in relation to their understanding of warranties on electronics they have purchased KINDA AN ANSWER! WHY THE NEED FOR A FORMAL ANYTHING. JUST DODGING THE QUESTION Also, see 1 and 2 above.

To say a customer's choice as to which TV to buy is based on the form warranty the manufaturer or EW provides is simply not realistic.
Why is this not realistic? The warranty offered definitely impacts a person's purchasing decision. Maybe it didn't impact your purchase because you didn't read or potentially didn't understand the warranty

Your opinion only. :( NO factual basis for the conclusion which I asked you to give in the earlier questions. It didn't impact my decision because I was going to buy the TV regardless of what it said. I just wanted a warranty and an EW for simple repairs over time not a total failure. I just didn't expect this. I know what the warranty's say and how they operate. Why do you think I am concerned about the EW. I guess you think I shouldn't have purchased one. But you see I have an advantage over you and a lot of people as I can read and understand the warranties and if need be file suit or have one of the attorney's in my firm file suit. Most people don't have that luxury. Lastly, You shouldn't think(but I am sure you will if it serves your purposes) that I think Pioneer or the EW companies' warranty contracts are unfair. The ones I have seen are generally fair but like any contract drawn up by the person providing the service or incurring the obligation they are one sided in places.

If you want to respond and answer the questions I asked I'll be glad to have a discussion with you. I am interested in why you feel the way you do.:confused: If you just want to continue this gotcha tennis match you'll have to go to another thread or find someone else on this thread to go at it with.

OP: See, Pioneer would then be out $4500. It's very easy to spend other people's money. Why don't you pick on the EW company, that's who your relationship is with now.

Areyouand Zivman related? Simple question ridiculous response. I didn't know Pioneer hired you to save them. Do you read english? Can't you answer a simple question? GEEZ!

aleeper21, reading over your circumstances & experiences w/this problem has me a bit incensed. Not at Pioneer per se, but rather the Store that took your money. Over the years of purchasing many products, I've come to the conclusion that when things go awry in a purchase, it matters greatly who sold you the item. Over time on this Forum, I've seen folks like Robert or Roman actually go to bat for the buyer, and help them get issues w/the Mfg'er resolved. Why didn't Ultimate Electronics go to bat for you as their customer?? A company like that has more juice than you when dealing w/any brand they sell there. That's tells me a lot about that Store.

I just don't get why so many think that Pioneer is supposed to go beyond thier specified warranty. What makes then so special that they should have to do this?

I mean, you just said it yourself, LG or some other brand shouldn't have to but Pioneer should.

Who cares about how much it cost. Thats not relevant to the issue.

the issue is that the warranty is expired. End of story.

Chad, I don't think that many feel Pioneer should have to step up, but they do feel sick to their stomachs hearing a pdp that is supposed to be top notch dies after not much use at all.
Probably because many here have spent $2K+ and if their new pdp died in 1k hours most would be justifiably pissed.
At least that's my take.

I'm sorry to hear about your plasma failure. I used to work at a high-end store and I don't think I've ever seen an issue with ANY Pioneer monitor we sold. May I ask where you purchased it from? Also, glad to know you got the extended warranty. I also purchased the warranty for both of my plasma (Panasonics) even though I doubt I'll ever need them. Then again.... :)

According to the OP, he bought it from Sound Advice, which is no longer in business. Thus, his only choices are the EW company and Pioneer themselves.

Zivman,
I can guarantee I can read a contract and a warranty 20x better than you can. It's is what I have been doing for a living for 21 plus years. So before you make baseless accusations make sure you know what you are talking about. Whether I can or not read the contract wasn't the point but the point simply escapes your simple mind. I don't know what you do for a living but your assumptions are unfortunate and place you in a negative light.

You make baseless staments and when challenged you resort to childish actions. It is clear that you don't have an inkling of factual support for your position. You can't engage in any type of rational thought to support your positon other than to say it is everyones fault. It is sad as I thought you knew what you were talking about and could inform me of something I didn't know




Why don't you answer the questions directly instead of trying to blame everyone when you don't have a defensible position.

So what does "Contract of Adhesion" mean? You took the time to look it up at my request. So tell me why the manufacturer's warranty isn't a contract of adhesion. To say it is their fault because they didn't read a warranty that isn't provided is so ridiculous. Tell me how many of you read the warranties before you purchase the product. And if you do where to you obtain them. How many of you have negotiated with the companies to change a term of the waranty. Support your viewpoint ZIVMAN. I am giving you the opportunity to discus this with me without resorting to accusations and childish behavior.

How can you say you have no choice

You just don't get the point I was making. I have a choice to get out of bed in the morning does that mean I can change the terms of my mortgage. I bought a car does that mean I can change the terms of my warranty for that car. I financed my car does that mean I can change the terms of the finance agreement except as to rate, length and price. I chose(many years ago) to have sex with my wife and she got preganant. Does that mean I can change the terms with god and give my child back(ok maybe that was a poor example)

I will spell this out for you. POINT POINT: They are contracts of adhesion because you can not change the terms if you buy the product. Your only choice is not to buy the product period. In your simplistic mind that is a choice like chosing to sit on the toilet if you have to relieve yourself. You can dance around the issue all you want.

When it comes to the terms of these warranties you have no choice other than to not buy the product. I asked you for some examples of statements you made and you can't even give them to me.

YES I DO... when I purchase something... a car, a watch, a TV I think about the life expectancy of the item and in turn the likely hood of that unit failing. If I think the item is likely (relatively speaking) to fail, I take into consideration repair/replacement costs and If I think the item is likely (relatively speaking) to fail,
Thank you very much you just made my case. I never thought a $6500.00 Pioneer Elite Would fail. Remember expectations. Sure I purchase an EW on the slight chance small repairs would occur over time. I also purchased an EW for my PRO510 and it never had a problem in the warranty period. Your expectations in buying something : " If I think the item is likely (relatively speaking) to fail, I take into consideration repair/replacement costs and look more closely at the supplied warranty in addition to the EW that are available

Ok let's analyze that statment. If I think the item is likely (relatively speaking) to fail,(gotcha! Back to expectations) Do you think every product is going to fail so you look at all waranties or are there occasions you don't pay attention to warranties because you don't think its likely to fail. Go ahead and answer that! You know if you answer the latter you are proving my point again.(no expectation of failure. Thus warranty not as important. Why expect to fail after all an expensive TV called an Elite).

and look more closely at the supplied warranty in addition to the EW that are available
look more closely at the supplied warranty. What does that mean? My question was hoiw many customers read the warranties and then understand what they say.You never answer this question. Do you expect me to believe that you have the box opened and read what ever warranty is in the box. There is no warranty language contained in my manual. Do you print it off the intenet/ Do you contact Pioneer and ask them for a copy? Do they provide it to you. Do you obtain a sample boiler plate warranty from the dealer? Please explain yourself. I don't think you do any of these things. However, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Once you've "looked more closely" at the warranty have you once ever had them modify the tems of the aggreement? Of course not. That is why it is a contract of adhesion. You have no choice except to purchase or not purchase the product. That was my point all along and you want to make it a matter of whether you buy the TV. Why, because its a very simplistic view and skates the issue. "If you don't know the answer reframe the question". That is what you have done.

Whether I read the warranty is irrelvant to what I have been trying to say . I never said I didn't know the length of the warranty or Pioneer should have covered the product under the warranty. All I said was should Pioneer step up in my situation. Maybe they will. There have been some very good suggestions of what to do and I intend to follow them if necessary.

Let me ask you this. You seem to be awfully critical of people not reading the warranties and having the waranties form a basis of their buying decision. From your tone it appears you may be in the retail sales of electronics. Is that true?


And I can't resist:

When is the last time a customer that you know of read the warranty prior to the purchase.
That is the customer's fault.... NO ANSWER! How about: "I can't think of one". No you'd make my point!! :rolleyes:

If they did do you know if they even understood the language.
Again, the fault of the customer NO ANSWER! How about "Don't know because I can't identify one who read the warranty before purchase" Again you'd make my point that you have no factual support for your baseless statements :rolleyes:

If they did understand, were they a lawyer or someone who was in the industry.
Not sure, haven't done a formal survey of customers and their backgrounds in relation to their understanding of warranties on electronics they have purchased KINDA AN ANSWER! WHY THE NEED FOR A FORMAL ANYTHING. JUST DODGING THE QUESTION Also, see 1 and 2 above.

To say a customer's choice as to which TV to buy is based on the form warranty the manufaturer or EW provides is simply not realistic.
Why is this not realistic? The warranty offered definitely impacts a person's purchasing decision. Maybe it didn't impact your purchase because you didn't read or potentially didn't understand the warranty

Your opinion only. :( NO factual basis for the conclusion which I asked you to give in the earlier questions. It didn't impact my decision because I was going to buy the TV regardless of what it said. I just wanted a warranty and an EW for simple repairs over time not a total failure. I just didn't expect this. I know what the warranty's say and how they operate. Why do you think I am concerned about the EW. I guess you think I shouldn't have purchased one. But you see I have an advantage over you and a lot of people as I can read and understand the warranties and if need be file suit or have one of the attorney's in my firm file suit. Most people don't have that luxury. Lastly, You shouldn't think(but I am sure you will if it serves your purposes) that I think Pioneer or the EW companies' warranty contracts are unfair. The ones I have seen are generally fair but like any contract drawn up by the person providing the service or incurring the obligation they are one sided in places.

If you want to respond and answer the questions I asked I'll be glad to have a discussion with you. I am interested in why you feel the way you do.:confused: If you just want to continue this gotcha tennis match you'll have to go to another thread or find someone else on this thread to go at it with.


I don't have the time or energy to respond to all of that...

Good luck to you...:rolleyes:

aleeper21, from what you posted it is likely the power supply board, very inexpensive part to change, why are they saying $4400?

Where do you live?

-Robert

You never really answered this question. Do you have a detailed written report as to the damage to your TV. I question if the tech wants a free TV to fix.

you did posting this mess and responding to peoples criticisms explaining the situation to and working with your EQ company you wouldn't be in this mess.


Now that being said lets go over some customer service basics.

A decade ago when I was just a lowly phone tech at Dell I remember a conversation I had with my manager at the time. He was explaining how when dealing with an customer he has two books he can work from. One is a list of things he CAN do for a customer the other is the one that he HAS to do.

You always want them looking at the first book. And the fastest way to get to the second is to be beligerent.

Now I've worked in some form of customer service or another for over a decade and I'll tell you right now that the being beligerent and argumentative is the worst way to get anything done. Because you get the reps back up and instead of them being in their normal help you mode they shift into FU mode.

So for anyone reading tis bear this in mind. Always be polite to the rep your talking to. You can be firm but always be polite. When you hit that brick wall of them telling you that that they can't do anything else and you feel you have a legitimate beef, You ask to speak to a supervisor. Explain that you understand that they are at the end of their authority and you want to speak to someone with more. Don't take no for an answer don't take that "they can't do anything more" crap for an answer. Be firm but polite.

When you get to the supervisor maintain the politeness. Don't bad mouth the tech (Unless they were legitimately bad) explain the situation rationally and see where that will get you. There is a good chance that they will be able to find some sort of solution that is acceptable.

Don't mention lawyers don't make any threats of any kind. The minute you say anything about lawsuits or lawyers a customer service reps obligation to assist you ends and their obligation to protect the company comes into force. And in most cases their lawyers are better than yours so it's generally an empty threat so don't make it. A lawsuit from some shmuck in BFE does not scare a company like Pioneer. But the threat of such could permantently deny all future access to customer service resources to you from said company.

I recall one incident at a company I worked for where a difficult customer was essentially black listed from ever being able to buy that companies product ever again.


As far as the product failing in such a "short" timeframe use wise. That's the breaks. Solid state equipment (like modern flatscreens) that have no moving parts have their highest potential for failure at the begining of their life. That's when defects of manufacturing tend to make themselves known. That's why every piece of electronics is required by law to have a 30 day return policy period. That's when your greatest likelyhood of failure takes place. It is unusual (though not unheard of) for components to fail beyond that period up until the starts to reach it's mean time to failure period.

I fully expect the majority of these panels to mirror the life expectancies of previous CRT technology when operated in proper climate controled environments. (At least in the case of Plasma's LCD's will probably have a shorter lifespan due to limitations in the technology)

That beign said sometimes **** breaks that's just reality. If it didn't there wouldn't be a need for customer service, repair techs and warranties. The fact that **** breaks makes me very happy because it ensures that I have a job to be able to make money to go out and buy cool **** that will eventually break as well.

Sometimes that stuff breaks outside of warranty thems the breaks. You just had the bad luck of drawing the short straw.

I just don't get why so many think that Pioneer is supposed to go beyond thier specified warranty. What makes then so special that they should have to do this?

I mean, you just said it yourself, LG or some other brand shouldn't have to but Pioneer should.

Who cares about how much it cost. Thats not relevant to the issue.

the issue is that the warranty is expired. End of story.

I'll tell you why so many people think that. Because they are told they can expect their plasma should last between 50,000 and 60,000 hours of viewing.

If they were told that they can expect a manufacturing defect to destroy the television, despite limited viewing hours, after a year or two, but they will be out of luck if it is past the warranty, even if the problem is the maker's fault not theirs, well, nobody would buy the darn things.

Given the recent Pioneer news, there reaction makes a little more sense.