Just curious to see the exact explanation as to why you receive HD broadcast channels when you do a digital search when you only have SD cable? I know the tv is an HDTV and has a built in digital tuner (ATSC) so more than likely it's pulling the digital HD channels from the standard cable line but I was surprised at how many HD channels you can get without upgrading to the digital package. You basically get all the local channels (abc, nbc, cbs, fox, and others) just not the dedicated cable channels (espn, tnt, discovery, etc, etc).

I guess the biggest shock to me is the cable company has not figured out a way to block people somehow from using their feed to gain access to HD channels? Basically, I guess for some there is no need to upgrade at this point if they can pull a good feed from just basic cable.....

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Michael

The TV has a built-in QAM tuner (cable version of ATSC tuner).
It's a requirement that your cable company has to carry local channels in both digital and analog format.

It's a requirement that your cable company has to carry local channels in both digital and analog format.

Jeff-

Thanks for your response....I did not know that it was a requirement that the cable co had to carry local channels in both digital and analog format even though you only have standard service. I just assumed that somehow the cable co would regulate it contingent upon the service the customer requested (i.e. whether they have standard package or digital HD package). Guess I should have done some research first before asking the question....my apologies.

Thanks,
Michael

The TV has a built-in QAM tuner (cable version of ATSC tuner).
It's a requirement that your cable company has to carry local channels in both digital and analog format.

I believe the claim that it is a requirement is bogus: we (from Pescadero north to Montara - maybe 10,000 folks) do not get any local digital channels, we do not get any HD, we do not get On-Demand. That is true whether or not we pay the least expensive (Basic) or the most expensive (Digital Platinum) - at the same prices you pay that for you includes HD & On-Demand, BTW.

As for QAM, the only digital channels not scrambled by our Comcast provider are the Audio (Music Choice and FM - about 45-channels), and the Golf Channel (no HD) (which IMHO is Clear QAM because of all the folks living down at the HMB Golf Course... you know, the same place that Ritz-Carleton built their hotel).

Comcast is aware of the "problem" and has no intention of spending any money to upgrade the infrastructure (distribution cabling). The local Comcast owner/franchisee/supervisor told me to my face that she is recommending to all her friends that they get satellite.

If your cable company carries your local channels in digital they have to be sent out freely to anyone who gets cable service. They cannot charge you extra for a channel you already pay for just to get it as a digital channel. They can however scramble any non local channel to keep people from getting channels they don't pay for. That is why you have to have a cable box or cable card to get channels like ESPN, USA, TBS etc, not everyone suscribes to them so the cable company scrambles them so the non-subscribers don't get them for free.

If your cable company carries your local channels in digital they have to be sent out freely to anyone who gets cable service. They cannot charge you extra for a channel you already pay for just to get it as a digital channel. They can however scramble any non local channel to keep people from getting channels they don't pay for. That is why you have to have a cable box or cable card to get channels like ESPN, USA, TBS etc, not everyone suscribes to them so the cable company scrambles them so the non-subscribers don't get them for free.

If the cable company (COMCAST, in this case) cannot deliver enough bandwidth to supply HD or ON DEMAND, they apparently don't have to (again, in this case).

I have a Sony 52" XBR5 and a Samsung LN52A750 directly connected to LIMITED BASIC Comcast cable ($20.19/month). I just reran the AUTO CHANNEL PROGRAM on each TV. I get:

Video Channels 2->71 (includes all local channels, higher cable stuff - all analog)
Audio Channels 72-5 -> 72-50
Video Channel 73 (G4)
Video Channel 74 (SOAP!!!)
Video Channel 76-3 (some kind of exercise channel)
Video Channel 77-13 (VERSES COUNTRY)
Video Channel 78 (a continuous view of an oscilloscope screen)
Audio Channels 95-10 -> 95-39

Those are exactly the same channels I had when I was paying Comcast $53.57/month for EXPANDED BASIC.

Please do not try to rationalize any decision(s) a huge corporation makes. Huge corporations make money-making decisions, or they fail. In the SF Bay Area Coastside situation, Comcast's decision is to leave us out to dry for HD and On Demand, and the local Comcast franchise/office's decision was to scramble almost all digital channels...

If the cable company (COMCAST, in this case) cannot deliver enough bandwidth to supply HD or ON DEMAND, they apparently don't have to (again, in this case). In the SF Bay Area Coastside situation, Comcast's decision is to leave us out to dry for HD and On Demand, and the local Comcast franchise/office's decision was to scramble almost all digital channels...

Grubavs-

In this example you provided, it sounds like to me that Comcast (in this specific case) can control content?

Makes me go huh? Interesting indeed!

Michael

There are no filters in the street connections that control if a home gets analog only or digital only service so all homes receive both.
Only the tuner(s) in use determine which can be received.
The cable companies are required to provide unencrypted at the basic cable service price any channels which you can receive locally with an antena.
However, they are not required to provide more then one digital sub-channel from any single broadcaster.
Grubavs post above above is a perfect example of what is possible.
There are some exceptions to the above at some individual cable company head ends.

Yeah that's what's so awesome about QAM tuners. You can pick up any channels that are "in-the-clear" and not scrambled.

But most of them are just the locals. My LCD has a QAM tuner but I never tried it out.

I believe the claim that it is a requirement is bogus: we (from Pescadero north to Montara - maybe 10,000 folks) do not get any local digital channels, we do not get any HD, we do not get On-Demand. That is true whether or not we pay the least expensive (Basic) or the most expensive (Digital Platinum) - at the same prices you pay that for you includes HD & On-Demand, BTW.

As for QAM, the only digital channels not scrambled by our Comcast provider are the Audio (Music Choice and FM - about 45-channels), and the Golf Channel (no HD) (which IMHO is Clear QAM because of all the folks living down at the HMB Golf Course... you know, the same place that Ritz-Carleton built their hotel).

Comcast is aware of the "problem" and has no intention of spending any money to upgrade the infrastructure (distribution cabling). The local Comcast owner/franchisee/supervisor told me to my face that she is recommending to all her friends that they get satellite.

Hi, this is directly from Wiki :confused:

"If cable providers provide rebroadcasts of locally aired programming, they must also carry rebroadcasts of high-definition digital locally aired programming, in an unencrypted form, that does not require the customer to use leased equipment, per FCC Sec. 76.630 and CFR Title 47, §76.901(a). These usually include the local affiliates for CBS, NBC, ABC, PBS, and FOX, and the cable providers comply by rebroadcasting them over QAM channels."

If the cable company (COMCAST, in this case) cannot deliver enough bandwidth to supply HD or ON DEMAND, they apparently don't have to (again, in this case).


You are correct they do not have to carry the digital or HD channel if they don't want to. What I said was if they do carry it, they have to send it out in the clear. They cannot scramble your local OTA channels over QAM, that is against the law.

If the cable company (COMCAST, in this case) cannot deliver enough bandwidth to supply HD or ON DEMAND, they apparently don't have to (again, in this case).

I have a Sony 52" XBR5 and a Samsung LN52A750 directly connected to LIMITED BASIC Comcast cable ($20.19/month). I just reran the AUTO CHANNEL PROGRAM on each TV. I get:

Video Channels 2->71 (includes all local channels, higher cable stuff - all analog)
Audio Channels 72-5 -> 72-50
Video Channel 73 (G4)
Video Channel 74 (SOAP!!!)
Video Channel 76-3 (some kind of exercise channel)
Video Channel 77-13 (VERSES COUNTRY)
Video Channel 78 (a continuous view of an oscilloscope screen)
Audio Channels 95-10 -> 95-39

Those are exactly the same channels I had when I was paying Comcast $53.57/month for EXPANDED BASIC.

Please do not try to rationalize any decision(s) a huge corporation makes. Huge corporations make money-making decisions, or they fail. In the SF Bay Area Coastside situation, Comcast's decision is to leave us out to dry for HD and On Demand, and the local Comcast franchise/office's decision was to scramble almost all digital channels...


Seems like the more I read your post, your area doesn't have any local over- the-air broadcasting in the first place?

I am curious if you use your ATSC tuner instead of QAM and an antenna, what'd you get?

I now agree with Grubavs is not receiving any clear QAM digital channels since none of his channels carry digital sub channel identifiers and he states that they are all analog.
I don't know the details of the FCC Must carry rules but AFAIK for most cable companies they include one sub-channel from each high powered local broadcaster be carried unencrypted. And AFAIK they can not not do this without special approval from the FCC.

Seems like the more I read your post, your area doesn't have any local over- the-air broadcasting in the first place?

I am curious if you use your ATSC tuner instead of QAM and an antenna, what'd you get?

Sorry about the tardy answer... laundromat:(:(

There is a 1850-ft mountain between us and SF, and a 2000-ft mountain between us and San Jose. We can get hardly any OTA and I live on the top of a hill.
The problem with the rule (if I read it correctly) is that it applies where a cable company will need to supply local HD in the clear just to compete with OTA antennas, but not in places like ours where the choice is limited to cable or satellite. Dishes are sprouting up all over the place. Comcast is seemingly not concerned. I assume because the market is <10000 households so it would cost more to compete than to just let us go to satellite.

The two reasons I haven't gone to satellite yet are: 1) I really like TiVo's ease-of-use and 2) There's a chance that the dish installer will need to replace our internal cabling as our was built in 1986, and my wife has said, "NO MORE HOLES IN OUR WALLS!!!!", and she isn't too interested in having a dish on the house, either. :(:(:(

Actually, on that front there's good news. In the past week or so, our SD channels that appear in 4:3 on our TVs seem to be "forced" into 4:3, not transmitted in 4:3, so video information is "lost" to the sides of the viewing area. Also, things moving up and down do so as if one is watching them through a convex glass, swelling as they approach the center of the screen. My wife, who hardly ever notices such things, commented on it last night when writing was off to the left and right, and peoples' heads swelled during a BBC news cast. We watch some shows on line now as much as possible because of that (Mac mini to XBR5), and that they are mostly in HD.

Thank you for answering, I suppose there's always exception.

One thing I am a still a little puzzled about is that: AFAIK the cable company (Comcast) has to buy its TV package from satellite anyway - ie.. it's getting all of the TV programs from a satellite provider and then rebroadcast them via cable. Once they get the whole package from satellite, it should include local HD, why is it so difficult for them to rebroadcast these local channels - in your area?

Just pondering
JP

Thank you for answering, I suppose there's always exception.

One thing I am a still a little puzzled about is that: AFAIK the cable company (Comcast) has to buy its TV package from satellite anyway - ie.. it's getting all of the TV programs from a satellite provider and then rebroadcast them via cable. Once they get the whole package from satellite, it should include local HD, why is it so difficult for them to rebroadcast these local channels - in your area?

Just pondering
JP

I'm not an expert (anybody else?) but I've been told it's due to the distribution cable quality... it was installed in the early 80's by a fly-by-night company. Comcast claims it would need to be 100% replaced. They definitely have the big dish at their building. They probably get HD there.

Also, just an update: last night's TiVoed (analog) BBC News broadcast showed up in 16:9 again and later the 4:3 stuff seemed to fit on the screen again... so whatever that was is (at least for now) "fixed", which probably means satellite is back on hold for me...

Any local HD programing that a Cable provider receives and then retransmits is received from an antenna or a direct fiber feed from the local station.

Thank you for answering, I suppose there's always exception.

One thing I am a still a little puzzled about is that: AFAIK the cable company (Comcast) has to buy its TV package from satellite anyway - ie.. it's getting all of the TV programs from a satellite provider and then rebroadcast them via cable. Once they get the whole package from satellite, it should include local HD, why is it so difficult for them to rebroadcast these local channels - in your area?

Just pondering
JP
A very basic explanation of Comcast's distribution setup: "cable" channels are uplinked to C-band (big dish) satellite by the owner/distributor. Comcast Media Center (CMC) in Denver receives the channels, applies extra compression to them, and crams them together into 38.4Mbit/s packages designed to fit on a cable channel. These packages are re-uplinked to a different satellite as part of a service known as Headend In The Sky (HITS). Local Comcast systems (and other, smaller providers) receive these packages, remodulate them into QAM, and dump them on a cable channel. Local channels are received at a collection point in the area, either via fiber or using an antenna, and are packaged 2 per QAM channel (in most regions). All of these channels are sent out to the local node via fiber, where they are converted to coax for distribution within the neighborhood.

A very basic explanation of Comcast's distribution setup: "cable" channels are uplinked to C-band (big dish) satellite by the owner/distributor. Comcast Media Center (CMC) in Denver receives the channels, applies extra compression to them, and crams them together into 38.4Mbit/s packages designed to fit on a cable channel. These packages are re-uplinked to a different satellite as part of a service known as Headend In The Sky (HITS). Local Comcast systems (and other, smaller providers) receive these packages, remodulate them into QAM, and dump them on a cable channel. Local channels are received at a collection point in the area, either via fiber or using an antenna, and are packaged 2 per QAM channel (in most regions). All of these channels are sent out to the local node via fiber, where they are converted to coax for distribution within the neighborhood.

So there are several steps that could be our (south of SF coastside) "problem, then. e.g., no fiber line to local nodes and/or the coax distribution cabling is not capable??? Comcast has been claiming for the past four years or so that the main reason we weren't being upgraded was the Coastal Commission not allowing them to put a cable connection between us and Pacifica, CA, but the local office definitely has a big dish (I'd guess about 8-ft in diameter).

So there are several steps that could be our (south of SF coastside) "problem, then. e.g., no fiber line to local nodes and/or the coax distribution cabling is not capable??? Comcast has been claiming for the past four years or so that the main reason we weren't being upgraded was the Coastal Commission not allowing them to put a cable connection between us and Pacifica, CA, but the local office definitely has a big dish (I'd guess about 8-ft in diameter).
Your area is on a 550MHz system, probably left over from AT&T or whoever was the cable provider before Comcast bought them out. Comcast has upgraded the rest of the Bay Area has been to 860 MHz or more, but your city apparently doesn't want everything torn up so Comcast can replace the wiring.

Your area is on a 550MHz system, probably left over from AT&T or whoever was the cable provider before Comcast bought them out. Comcast has upgraded the rest of the Bay Area has been to 860 MHz or more, but your city apparently doesn't want everything torn up so Comcast can replace the wiring.

Actually, we're rural, the wiring is on poles not underground, and Comcast was claiming it was the CA Coastal Commission (controls all things within a certain distance from the beach) that was stopping them. However, that hurdle was dropped (as far as the scuttlebutt knows) and Comcast still hasn't upgraded us., and apparently has no plan to upgrade us :(

I have Comcast "Standard Cable". I get a digital channel equivalent for every std def channel. FX for example is SD chan 36 DD chan 121.10. I also get HD channels for the locals such as ABC, NBC, etc. Anybody know if I can buy my own Motorola DCT6200 receiver to get all of the HD channels and not have to pay Comcast a monthly rental fee?

i have comcast "standard cable". I get a digital channel equivalent for every std def channel. Fx for example is sd chan 36 dd chan 121.10. I also get hd channels for the locals such as abc, nbc, etc. Anybody know if i can buy my own motorola dct6200 receiver to get all of the hd channels and not have to pay comcast a monthly rental fee?

no