I have recently purchased a Bose 5.1 system with a Sony 7.1 receiver. It's not too bad for just starting out, but I've decided to save my money the rest of this year and at the end of this year, I want to put together the ULTIMATE surround sound system. I want to start researching now, and I need you guys' help!

I am basically looking to build a 7.2 system. I remember how back in the day (and it still may be true today), the THX systems used to have two subwoofers. I'm trying to imitate that sort of set-up, but only better.

Here is the new set-up I want to design. I would like two (2) subwoofers up front, each powered by their own amplifiers, in addition to a center speaker, front left and front right speakers, right and left speakers, and back left and back right speakers.

The last detail is my living room is square. It's 24 x 24.

Now, let's forget all about costs, and let's just focus on the best quality.

First, if you could buy any surround sound receiver, which one would you buy? It must be 7.1, and it has to decode TrueHD, DTS-Master Audio, Dolby Digital, etc.

Second, I want to keep all the surround sound speakers the same brand; however, I understand that sometimes companies that make great surround speakers don't make great subwoofers, so different brand subwoofers is okay. Therefore, if you could buy any brand surround sound speakers, which would you buy?

Third, I need some incredibly awesome subwoofers. When I watch a movie such as Transformers, I want my bones to fracture. I remember back in the day, there used to be different size subwoofers, such as 16 inch versus 18 inch. I don't know if that's still true today. At any rate, what size subwoofers should I get with respect to a perfect balance between response and frequencies it's able to handle? Who makes the best subwoofers? Additionally, what amplifier should I buy to power them?

I want to have fun with this, and with you guys' help here, I don't think this will be such an impossible task!

I have recently purchased a Bose 5.1 system with a Sony 7.1 receiver. It's not too bad for just starting out, but I've decided to save my money the rest of this year and at the end of this year, I want to put together the ULTIMATE surround sound system. I want to start researching now, and I need you guys' help!

I am basically looking to build a 7.2 system. I remember how back in the day (and it still may be true today), the THX systems used to have two subwoofers. I'm trying to imitate that sort of set-up, but only better.

Here is the new set-up I want to design. I would like two (2) subwoofers up front, each powered by their own amplifiers, in addition to a center speaker, front left and front right speakers, right and left speakers, and back left and back right speakers.

The last detail is my living room is square. It's 24 x 24.

Now, let's forget all about costs, and let's just focus on the best quality.

First, if you could buy any surround sound receiver, which one would you buy? It must be 7.1, and it has to decode TrueHD, DTS-Master Audio, Dolby Digital, etc.

Second, I want to keep all the surround sound speakers the same brand; however, I understand that sometimes companies that make great surround speakers don't make great subwoofers, so different brand subwoofers is okay. Therefore, if you could buy any brand surround sound speakers, which would you buy?

Third, I need some incredibly awesome subwoofers. When I watch a movie such as Transformers, I want my bones to fracture. I remember back in the day, there used to be different size subwoofers, such as 16 inch versus 18 inch. I don't know if that's still true today. At any rate, what size subwoofers should I get with respect to a perfect balance between response and frequencies it's able to handle? Who makes the best subwoofers? Additionally, what amplifier should I buy to power them?

I want to have fun with this, and with you guys' help here, I don't think this will be such an impossible task!

100k should get you there....money is no object to you....really?

I'm glad to see you saving up to replace your Bose setup with something that really is good. The Bose will get you by in the meantime though, and then you'll probably be able to sell it to some poor sucker for a few $$$.

First, forget about a receiver until AFTER you've picked your speakers. If you end up picking a speaker setup with 4 ohm impedance (for example) you want to make sure you get a receiver that's up to the job. You may also need to look at a separate amp instead of just a receiver. Pick your speakers first, and then we can worry about getting an appropriate receiver. When you've chosen speakers post in the receiver forum for advice.

As far as speakers go, instead of asking what you should buy, go out and start listening to them. If you're not gonna buy for a year, you've got plenty of time to listen to lots of speakers. Take your own demo material of music and movie scenes that you're very familiar with to listen to. Also keep a notebook with detailed notes on every setup you listen to with what you like and don't like about them. I would also recommend looking through this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=919069).

As for subs, there's also a lot to pick from. I would start out by looking at the PC-13 Ultra and PB-13 Ultra from SVS. But there are plenty of others to consider as well. You'd get the best advice on this in the subwoofer forum.

First, having a square room will cause a few acoustic problems with reverberations and standing waves. So look at acoustic treatments to help fix these problems. There are plenty of threads that will guide you in the right direction.

I would also suggest checking out Mark Seaton's speakers(catylyst and spark) and subwoofers(submersive1, submersive2, terraform, terraform xl). He has his own forum too if you want to check it out. From your description, he is the man to talk to. Google Seaton Sound and its called websitetoolbox or something. So far, his designs haven't disappointed anyone, but you can read for yourself. Mark will answer any questions you have.

Just buy pro audio gear like JBL, Electrovoice, QSC, EAW, etc cinema speakers. Get a good pre/pro or receiver to serve as such (I prefer THX processing so I'd get one with this, a really good calibration system and pre-outs) and add some powerful pro audio amps to power those speakers (most likely 4 ohms). Or look into active monitors like Genelec's theater line.

Same thing for subs, look at pro audio gear like Danley, JTR, and so on. Or DIY.

Have a professional install it and calibrate the whole thing and this will be about as good as it gets. Best part is this can probably all be had for much less than most "hi fi" stuff that won't even compare. $10k max and you could put together a killer system with pro audio gear that would rival anything out there.

Don't forget to add some good room treatments, THX experts say this accounts for 50% of a home theater.

Good luck.

I would also suggest checking out Mark Seaton's speakers(catylyst and spark) and subwoofers(submersive1, submersive2, terraform, terraform xl). He has his own forum too if you want to check it out. From your description, he is the man to talk to. Google Seaton Sound and its called websitetoolbox or something. So far, his designs haven't disappointed anyone, but you can read for yourself. Mark will answer any questions you have.

Thanks for the mention. :)

In an attempt to make it a little less difficult to find me :o things are in process for some content to make it to the website around the end of the month. In the mean time either of these addresses should be much easier to remember that will get you to the forum:

www.seatonsound.net

www.seatonsoundforum.com

First off, if "ultimate" is your goal, you shouldn't even consider running this thing on a receiver. There is no way any receiver can offer you complete separation of the pre/amp section from the power section AND the ability to drive any type of speaker load AND have nearly unlimited reserves of power. So right off the bat, you should consider separates for your amplifiers, your pre/pro, and possibly even your video processing. That way, you could get a really good sound processor to handle your audio and have a video processor that may have the latest connections for your projector/monitor. Then as time goes on, you may upgrade the sound or video processors while your amps remain with you for years because there is usually no need to change the power amps that drive your speakers.

That said, I think the other guys are right on the money regarding the process you need to go through. First, find someone, a pro, who comes with good references to work with you. Then have that person work on treating the room to deal with the sound problems it has. Then determine what speakers you'll want to use (which should require that you have to listen to them and if you do, the best way to do it is in the room where you'll set up your theater). Once you've chosen the speakers, then you should pick your sources (Blu Ray, DVD, Satellite, Cable, CD, Turntable, Digital Server, etc.) After all of that, you should determine what your power amps will be to drive the speakers and your processor needs (can it be a combined audio/video processor or should you go with a separate audio processor and a separate video processor). Oh, and you'll need to figure out where to store all of this equipment and properly cool it. Then you may want to consider a universal remote to control all of this stuff or have the installer set up a full blown touch screen control system. Finally, you can determine the furniture needs for your room and decor choices.

Now, even with all of the above, you don't need a $100,000 to get something really awesome if you're willing to do some careful shopping and use slightly used or demo equipment in the right places. But having a good plan of attack may help you avoid spending money you don't need to spend. :)

We really need to know your budget, and what you want to do with it. What is the most important aspect? What do you want to do with it? Gaming, movies, music, and what percentage would be helpful.

If you are looking for the ultimate home theater experience I would suggest JTR, Mark Seaton (as suggested above), or maybe even JBL. Danley is another to consider if budget is no object. Plenty of room treatments (square rooms are some of the worst after all due to cancellation issues etc), pro amplifiers (think Behringer), don't use a receiver they're almost all crap when you want to get into the "ultimate" experience, and bone crunching subwoofers will almost always be a 15" or 18" these days. They handle the frequencies they're supposed to with ease :D

More information please!! If you want it to be easy, just contact Mark Seaton.

-Chad

I am new to all of this, obviously. So first, let me say thank you to everyone for sharing your knowledge. It is much appreciated as I learn my way around.

Let me clarify from my first post. For one, I definitely do have a budget, and it's my fault for not posting that. My budget is between $10,000 - $12,000. So really, when I say ultimate, what I'm saying is, the ultimate for $10,000 - $12,000.

Second, I've recently heard that you can add as many as four subs. I was worried I could get away with two, and I didn't even consider four! Now that know, I'd definitely like to head in that direction, so instead of a 7.2 system, I'd like to for the 7.4 system.

I mostly watch movies. I have a PS3, but I don't play it often. This isn't meant to be a gaming set-up. I also have an HD cable/satellite receiver, but I don't really watch much TV, either. I mostly (99% of the time) watch DVDs, most of which I've converted over to Blue-rays now.

Like I said, I've already learned a lot reading what you guys have posted. I'm taking notes, for sure.

As soon as I can get a list together, I'll post it for critique.

Let me thank everyone again for their continued help!!!!

Also, to add one more thing...

I haven't actually had a chance to listen to any speakers, yet. I'd like to compile a list of what the consensus would say are the best.

That being said, I've heard that JBL makes some really great surround speakers, and SVS makes some really great subs. Would those be a good place to start listening?

How about just passing on the speakers and buy 8 subs?


Sorry for the sarcasm, but if I were you, I would first go listen to many different speakers and learn what good sound is. Not many people have heard good sounding speakers, so the first thing they ask is : How loud can it get?

Tipped treble and bloated bass from mass produced speakers makes me crazy.

Go listen to as many as possible. And forget the subs for now. Subs are easy. Speakers are difficult.

Focus on the speakers. The rest will follow.

Also, to add one more thing...

I haven't actually had a chance to listen to any speakers, yet. I'd like to compile a list of what the consensus would say are the best.

That being said, I've heard that JBL makes some really great surround speakers, and SVS makes some really great subs. Would those be a good place to start listening?

No.

Listen to truly higher end stuff to understand good sound. Not mega-high end, but not something you can get at Best Buy.

Let's see. How about....Sonus faber, Martin Logan, Revel, Vienna acoustics, Dynaudio, Paradigm, and Def Tech. Those should get you started. Each one differs greatly in voicing qualities, and you can find what you like, or prefer. Then, you can continue your search and keep narrowing down.

It only took me 3 years to find my speakers. :D

First you need to get a handle on what things cost. $ 10-$12,000 buys a very good system. But it certainly doesn't buy the ultimate system. I am going to list what I have, not to make the recomendation, but to show what things can cost. Everything is rounded and from memory so don't shoot me if I'm a little off.

This is in a 18 x 18 room.

Sound treatments:
Gik acoustic tri-traps x 8 and acoustic panels x 12
$ 1,500.

Video:
JVC HDILA 70" tv.
$ 4,000

Audio:
Outlaw audio 990 pre/pro $ 1,200
M-200 amps x 7 $ 2,400
Power conditioner $ 400
Blu ray player $ 400
cd player $ 200
Cables $ 500

Speakers:
Paradigm Studio 100 $ 2,400
Center cc-690 $ 1,000
Surrounds ADP 590's x 4 $ 2,400
SVS subs x 2 $ 4,000

Total $ 20,400

I do not consider this an ultimate system. It is the ultimate that I can afford.
People have preferences on everything but I think most here would agree this is a pretty nice system.

One thing of note. Nothing listed was the first of anything. Every thing had been upgraded from something else. I guess my point is don't try to hit one out of the park your first time at bat. Pick good components and leave yourself a little room to expand or upgrade down the line.

Remember great Home Theater is a journey, not a destination.. !

Also, to add one more thing...

I haven't actually had a chance to listen to any speakers, yet. I'd like to compile a list of what the consensus would say are the best.

That being said, I've heard that JBL makes some really great surround speakers, and SVS makes some really great subs. Would those be a good place to start listening?

There is honestly no "consensus" as to what is "the best". Sort of like asking what is the best color. It's all subjective to personal taste. Even things like "what's the best way to get there" can have multiple answers, but at least in that case there is generally a best even if some are unwilling to admit it :D

I personally don't even think the regular "hi fi" stuff should be suggested if he's looking for the ultimate theater sound in a large room with this budget. Except maybe the Klipsch THX stuff, and of course M&K but they're from a pro audio background anyways. There's a ton of good hi-fi gear out there, but to even compare you're looking at the very expensive offerings IMO.

I've always liked a true sub/sat arrangement up front. 3 subs with the sat placed directly on top. I'm certain some, if not many, of the big studios use this arrangement. Here's one example of what I'm talking about:

http://www.mksoundsystem.com/sony.htm

Also, I don't see why many good receivers couldn't be used as pre/pros with some good pro amps, they'll do 99% of what separates will do for much less so that the balance saved can be spent on better speakers, subs, amps and room treatments. Coupling a good receiver working as a pre-pro with pro audio amps from Crown, QSC or Behringer would be hard if not impossible to beat for performance to dollar ratio IMO.

So to clear up the budget it is 10-12k for processing/amp and 7 speakers plus subs?

Do you have a preference in regards to dipole or direct radiator surrounds?

What is the height of your ceiling?

To use my older input for a similar question, I personally would choose from:
salk HT3 (http://www.salksound.com/ht3.shtml) fronts, HTC (http://www.salksound.com/htc.shtml) center, ht1 (http://www.salksound.com/ht1.shtml) surrounds
or
Peridot fronts (http://www.selahaudio.com/id96.html), Sardonyx (http://www.selahaudio.com/id14.html) center, Tanzanite (http://www.selahaudio.com/id53.html) or s6 (http://www.selahaudio.com/id170.html) surrounds (s6 is wall-mountable).
Those speakers imho, would give you the most clarity/transparency/imaging for the money, more than comparably priced mainstream brand ones.
or
just 5 jtr Triple12's (http://www.jtrspeakers.com/triple12.html) (they are $3k a pair). These will give you limitless dynamics and impact, can play very loud and clarity is also good supposedly.
For subs, I'd get two of these 15" (http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=746&osCsid=9a456bd0f6fc3a3054281348e0c3a8fc) ($2100 shipped for two) or two of these 18" (http://forum.edesignaudio.com/picture.php?albumid=6&pictureid=28) ( using this driver (http://forum.edesignaudio.com/picture.php?albumid=6&pictureid=36), $3100 shipped for two). Those would imho, give you the most impact for the money save for DIY / IB, and the SQ should be very respectable. Or a submersive from Mark Seaton which would edge them out in SQ and provide deeper extension.

... Sort of like asking what is the best color. ...

Red.

Speakers are harder. I've been shopping for speakers since July, on and off, but I've known about 'red' since I was a few months old.

[QUOTE=CADOBHuK;15738447]To use my older input for a similar question, I personally would choose from:
salk HT3 (http://www.salksound.com/ht3.shtml) fronts, HTC (http://www.salksound.com/htc.shtml) center, ht1 (http://www.salksound.com/ht1.shtml) surrounds
or
Peridot fronts (http://www.selahaudio.com/id96.html), Sardonyx (http://www.selahaudio.com/id14.html) center, Tanzanite (http://www.selahaudio.com/id53.html) or s6 (http://www.selahaudio.com/id170.html) surrounds (s6 is wall-mountable).
QUOTE]


The problem there is the 7 Salks blow basically all his budget (with no upgrades) and the Selahs (assembled at the low end) leave maybe 3K for subs and pro/amps.

I agree with the rest of the posters...that's a nice budget to work with and with CAREFULL planning, a really fantastic sounding room should result. I'd suggest a preliminary room layout for proper placement of whatever speaker you choose as placement is just as important as the speaker itself. This is even more important with subwoofers as the proper placement in your space may be far from how you suggested you might place them. It's a big space and a big budget so please please plan carefully.

Without the initial intent of making a purchase, go and listen to some systems to try and find an Aural 'reference'......an experience that was outstanding to you and then work towards that experience as your goal. I'd suggest you start with 2 channel music listening of your favorite tracks. You'll be able to determine imaging,dynamcs, and tonal characteristics as opposed to sheer output or volume.

Subs aren't really easy, and it's almost unreasonable to audition them in someone else's room and expect the same performance in yours. Multiple subs are the way to go, smoothing overall in room response and pressurizing the space for proper Bone Fracturing. Expect between $2500-$3000 of your budget to get it done. All of the above mentioned subs in multiples will do this when properly placed and calibrated. Regardless of what you purchase, the key to great bass is measuring the subs in room. A Velodyne SMS-1 Unit would be a BIG help here.

When considering the layout of your room, if you're going front projection, consider 3 identical front speakers behind an acoustically transparent screen as this layout will provide the best front sound stage....and a very clean and professional look.

Hope this helps..... And plan carefully. LOL

Well if he had $3k for bass and power, he could get dual a7-350 that would serve him with a great movie bass for $2k shipped, and $1k is enough for amplification when buying the right amps on audiogon, that leaves nothing for the preamp but I thought he could stretch the budget another $500-1000 for a used preamp.

10-12 grand hu...

I would start with the Emotiva UMC-1 for 700ish when it comes out. It should be an awesome bang for the buck pre/pro. Also the XMC-1 (not sure if thats what they will call it that) should be out this year... maybe... and should be about twice the price, but should be better.

I would also get their Amps
An XPA-2 for the mains and an XPA-5 for everything else. 719/799 respectively.

For Speakers I would get the SVS MTS line. 3548 should buy you 7.0 with the nice MTS-01 fronts.

For subs I would get Either the SVS PB13-Ultra or the Axiom EP600 V2.
The SVS is 1600 and the Axiom is 1800.

That brings you to about 7500 with one sub. You can do the math for 2 or 4 of them.

I would spend the rest on room treatment because it might make the biggest difference with your room. Having a square room might be kinda difficult but not impossible. If you want to buy something go with http://www.realtraps.com/ because Ethan Winer is awesome to the community.
If you want to DIY try http://www.atsacoustics.com/

You might be able to get a decent discount if you buy all your speakers through one company like SVS, but their prices are already rock bottom so who knows.

This is what I would do with that budget.

-Sean

Man, you guys are awesome.

Thank you so much for all the great information!

Please forgive me if I don't post as fast as you guys are dispensing the great information. Since I'm new and since you guys are so knowledgeable, it's taking me a little while to wrap my head around all of it.

The $10,000 - $12,000 is only for the system. The room treatments all of that will come later, of course, but I just can't afford it right now.

From what it sounds like to me, the $10,000 - $12,000 should be a starting off point. In other words, don't try to get an entire set-up in for that amount. Instead, use that as a starting off point, and over the next few years, accumulate things piece by piece. It may well cost over my budget, but spread out over several years, that might be okay.

There are so many speaker suggestions here, my head is spinning! It will take me a little while to digest all of that and research what I like best.

I'm researching right now, and as soon as I get a list together, I'll post it for everyone's critique.

Once again, thank you guys so very much for the continued support and help!

Man, you guys are awesome.

Thank you so much for all the great information!

Please forgive me if I don't post as fast as you guys are dispensing the great information. Since I'm new and since you guys are so knowledgeable, it's taking me a little while to wrap my head around all of it.

The $10,000 - $12,000 is only for the system. The room treatments all of that will come later, of course, but I just can't afford it right now.

From what it sounds like to me, the $10,000 - $12,000 should be a starting off point. In other words, don't try to get an entire set-up in for that amount. Instead, use that as a starting off point, and over the next few years, accumulate things piece by piece. It may well cost over my budget, but spread out over several years, that might be okay.

There are so many speaker suggestions here, my head is spinning! It will take me a little while to digest all of that and research what I like best.

I'm researching right now, and as soon as I get a list together, I'll post it for everyone's critique.

Once again, thank you guys so very much for the continued support and help!

Honestly you can't afford to spend that much money and NOT treat the room. I would buy 1 subwoofer now instead of 2, and use the money you DIDN'T spend on the extra subwoofer on at least minimal room treatment. Then when you go to upgrade adding the second subwoofer will be "exciting". :D If you don't do the treatments it is not much different than Paul Scarpelli puts it. Sort of like putting a professional driver in a Porsche (or other capable sports car) on glare ice and then blaming the bad driving on the car.

-Chad

For that Budget you can do many things. What are the size requirements for speakers?

Honestly you can't afford to spend that much money and NOT treat the room. I would buy 1 subwoofer now instead of 2, and use the money you DIDN'T spend on the extra subwoofer on at least minimal room treatment. Then when you go to upgrade adding the second subwoofer will be "exciting". :D If you don't do the treatments it is not much different than Paul Scarpelli puts it. Sort of like putting a professional driver in a Porsche (or other capable sports car) on glare ice and then blaming the bad driving on the car.

-Chad
Chad is right. If you're spending that much money on the system, start with planning for room treatments first. To set up your system on this type of budget, I would start with the basics and work your way up to a substantial system as you can afford over time. Since you seem to want to be into movies at first, your sources are already basically in place. Just add a really nice Blu Ray player. That will take care of your movies and provide you with a decent CD player to start with.

Room treatment and speaker placement should go hand in hand. I wouldn't worry about loading up on subwoofers for the moment. Indeed, depending on the size of the room, you may have only room enough for one sub, perhaps at the most, two. But for movies, subs only provide your low frequency effects. Dialog comes from your center channel and for most movies that channel tends to be more critical than the others. As for your soundtrack music, that's where your left/right channels come into play. Basically, what I'm saying here is that you should focus on having a balanced system, not one that is predominately heavy in one area (LFE, for instance).

Now, one problem I see from the information you've given us is your budget. For $10k or so, it would be difficult to see how you can afford to hire a pro who would setup the whole system for you from scratch and treat your room. So this may be a bit of a DIY project for you. If you do it DIY (do-it-yourself), you may want to study some stuff like Audioholics setting up a 5.1 system and get the concepts down then decide to tackle the project yourself. If you go that route, I would recommend getting the Velodyne SMS-1 system that will help you set up your sub and the bass of your system to deal with room problems. What's nice about the SMS-1 is it allows you to see a graph that shows your room's low bass response and allows you to compensate for some of the problems. There's a thread on AVS that discusses this device, so you should check it out.

This should rock your world no matter what you play. 3 JTR triple 8's, 4 JTR slanted 8's, and 2 SeatonSound submersives. These are neutral speakers and you can find some great deals on amplifiers like the Emotiva gear. This is just a guess but you may like this system over your current one.

This should rock your world no matter what you play. 3 JTR triple 8's, 4 JTR slanted 8's, and 2 SeatonSound submersives. These are neutral speakers and you can find some great deals on amplifiers like the Emotiva gear. This is just a guess but you may like this system over your current one.

+1

This would be a pretty sick system.

BIG UPDATE: I was able to return the Bose system and the Sony receiver. That adds about $2,000 back to my account. I'm really excited!

So maybe I can use that extra $2,000 for room treatments and still keep with my original plan of two subs.

So you guys are saying get the room treatments first? Why is that? Why couldn't I build the system first and then treat the room to what sounds best with the system I have?

Also, thank you guys for saving me from that Bose. I read all of those articles you guys posted, and I really had no idea. I'm learning so much here.

Also, let me ask you guys this, because I still don't understand how it works. Are there receivers that will allow for more than 1 subwoofer connection? If not, then how do I connect 2,3,4 etc. subwoofers to a single receiver? I' not understanding how the a multiple subwoofer set-up works.

You just use the one output in the reciever then have a splitter that splits the cable into multiple ends to plug into various subs.


YES! The room is just as important as the gear that sits in it. Since you have a perfect square, you pretty much have the worst room acustically you can have. Without a doubt, treat the walls and corners before getting the second sub. A $5000 dollar system in a treated/ good sounding room can and prbably will sound better than a $10000 system in a crappy room.

I've been a drummer/ musician for ten years. And there are always noobs getting into the game and saying they need a Masterworks drum kit, more wattage in thier amp, or something else because they cant get their "beginner" rig to sound good. BUT put a really good drummer behind that kit and it will sound perfect. Case in point, watch ANY Buddy Rich video on YouTube. There is one in particular that was shot in the late '70s I think. Now video recording sucked back then compared to nowadays and audio/mics and production was less than perfect BUT with him playing, its one of the greatest sounds from a drum kit ever. Much is the same with stereos. Just because you have the gear, doesnt mean it will sound good. It will look good on paper, but not to the ears.

With a crappy room, you will be fighting the laws of sound and physics the whole time, and I'd be willing to bet that you would have a thread saying "I have all this killer gear, why doesnt my stuff sound that good?" Its because of the room. Hell, with te right room, that Bose system you had would sound decent.

I've probably been a little redundant but its been a LONG day at work...haha.

With a common splitter, has one male end and two female ends. Something like this,http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10218&cs_id=1021802&p_id=667&seq=1&format=2.
Also i do think there are receivers that have more than 1 sub out on them, they are usually 2 too 3 thousand though.

If you get Velodyne's SMS-1 system, the device allows you to hook up several subwoofers and set the bass curve in your room for them. Take a look at the SMS-1 thread on AVS Forum to see more about its capability. For under $400 or so, you can get this device and it will allow you to see a graph of your subs' bass response interacting with your room. I would definitely recommend the SMS-1as a must have for someone in your situation with a square room. If you want to get subs along with the SMS-1, I believe Velodyne sells a system that would accommodate you as well.

In spaces with equandistant dimensions, some excellent work has been done in the area of bass arrays, where equal amounts of sub harmonic frequencies radiate from the front and the rear at the listening position producing the smoothest FR graphs i've ever seen in normal living spaces. While i understand and somewhat agree with the need to treat the room, the 'live' response of the room also goes a long way towards the overall experience. Starting with proper placement and measurements and aural perceprtion, and THEN treat accordingly. As is stated earlier, try and lay out the space, the video stage, the soundstage, seating and work from there. Speaker manufactures and subjective opinions are quite worthless at this stage of the game with such a significant investment. You'll get great advice here IF you ask the right questions so i don't really see a need for a pro installer. Many posters here are not just hobbyists, but people working in the field at one time or another. Take it step by step . Notice Jack's post which also includes the Velo SMS-1. This is the kind of info to start data-basing and working into a budget as essentials. Cap your equipment budget at 80 Percent of the total and enough $$ will remain for cables,treatments,remotes,etc.

Okay, so I listened to my first few set-ups tonight.

I checked out the high-end JBL system, and I didn't like it. It sounded sort of "tin-canny".

I heard a Klipsch system. It sounded better than the JBL, for sure, and I liked it. However, it was still lacking a little. Maybe I wasn't listening to the high-end components? I forgot to right down the model numbers of the speakers I was listening to.

I heard a Polk Audio system, and it really sounded good. It was a 7.4 system run through a Pioneer Elite SC-07 receiver. The center channel had a Polk LSIC and a Velodyne DLS-4000R subwoofer running through it. The front left and right channels had Polk LSI9's with 2 (one for each channel) Velodyne DLS-5000R subwoofers running through them. The left and right surround channels had Polk LSIFX's in dipole mode. The rear channels had LSI9's running through them. The main subwoofer running through the LFE channel was a Velodyne DD-18 subwoofer.

The system just boomed. I really enjoyed the sound of it.

I'm going tomorrow to a real high-end home theater store to listen to some more stuff, but starting out with an initial set-up, what is everyone's critique of the above Polk Audio/Velodyne set-up? I really liked it, and it's within my range.

Also, let me ask you guys this, because I still don't understand how it works. Are there receivers that will allow for more than 1 subwoofer connection? If not, then how do I connect 2,3,4 etc. subwoofers to a single receiver? I' not understanding how the a multiple subwoofer set-up works.

I would assume a Y connector would work fine, but then I've never setup 2 subs off 1 receiver before.

I don't think it's necessary to treat the room before you do anything, but I believe they are suggesting it should be part of the "original" budget, and not something you'll do later (and possibly never get around to).

I also second the recommendations on the pro audio speakers like JTR, Seaton, Danley, etc. I haven't listened to them, I'm just going off how people describe them here on the forums. They seem to be a very good choice if theater sound is all your after.

I don't think it's necessary to treat the room before you do anything, but I believe they are suggesting it should be part of the "original" budget, and not something you'll do later (and possibly never get around to).

I also second the recommendations on the pro audio speakers like JTR, Seaton, Danley, etc. I haven't listened to them, I'm just going off how people describe them here on the forums. They seem to be a very good choice if theater sound is all your after.

That's exactly right. We just want to make sure you don't overlook it because the system may never meet your expectations if you don't take this very important step.

Regarding the Polk LSI9 speakers they're good as is the DD-18 but there are much better options for your money.

You really should look into the JTR Triple 8's with Seaton Sound Submersive subwoofers. You will not find these in a store, but I promise you will be impressed with what you get for the money. For pure home theater it will be next to impossible to beat.

If looks don't matter, then I highly suggest:

Danley Soundlabs
JTR
Seaton Catalysts or Sparks (though they look MUCH better than other pro-audio offerings)

So, how's it coming along, B.O.W.? :)

I'd really like to see more people investing this kind of money to go a route that applies as much of a scientific approach as possible in the design and development of the products used. This includes splitting the budget in the way that makes the most sense to get the best performance per dollar.

This might seem like a lot of money, but for a good HT, it's really not. You will be amazed just how fast you can spend that budget. I think that the amplifiers and processor is really going to net you among the smallest gains. Ok, wires will net the smallest, don't over spend on those, but really, I think a good reciever with all the features you want will be fine. No I don't have one, but my budget was bigger. I went with a Pre/pro and seperate amps, but they would eat up 3/4s of your budget. That just doesn't make sense.

As for speakers, you should go with what you like, but listening in demo rooms and shops is really tough. Unknown acoustics, unknown equipment, it's just too hard to know how they will actually sound in your room. Home trials are nice, but I do believe you have to live with a product for a little while to really know what it's like. Speakers should make up the majority of your "audio" budget in my opinion. I just finished building the Gedlee Summa Abbey speakers from Dr. Geddes, and I'm a very big fan of this product. Their is very sound science behind the design, and in my opinion, really are among the best speakers on the market for their purpose. However, the top models will exceed your budget, and I don't believe he has brought the Harper8 to market yet. I also like JBL's top speakers such as the Everest and K2's, but all of these far exceed your budget, and I feel the lower end speakers have practically nothing in common. The Danley Sound, JTI, and Seaton recomendations may also be good, but I think they will break your budget pretty quick. For the price of those, you could go with Summa's, they are big, but they sound amazing.

For subwoofers, don't blow your budget on exotic subwoofers using unnecessary technology. My recomendation is for 3 smaller subs rather than one or two big ones. It will give you the smoothest response, if placed correctly, and will have plenty of output. Again, I would recommend reading up on Dr. Geddes instructions for placement, he recomends three subs placed in a somewhat particular way, and then taking measurements, and making adjustments of phase, crossover, and eq to get everything right. It's very effective. Harmen has a paper discussing their work on a similar approach, and it's been very actively discussed over on the DIYAudio forum with both Dr. Geddes and a gent from Harman who is working on their project.

I don't recall now if you wanted to include video as part of your HT budget here. My personal view after having a projector and screen as part of my theater room for a few years now is that it's the only way to go. To me a big part of the theater experience is the larger than life images, and you just can't get that on a regular tv, be it flat screen or rear projection. I've been converted into that 100"s or bigger world. None the less, they do cost a bit of money. I think you can projectors for as cheap as a good flat screen anymore, but it's up to you if you want to deal with all their drawbacks too. Such as not being able to watch tv or movies with much ambient light.

Room acoustics are important, but really, I think it's going to be about proper setup and use of the right acoustics rather than just throwing things at the problems. The nly thing that acoustic panels due is absorb some of the soundwaves amplitude, not eliminate it, so all it's really doing to reflections is reducing their level a few db's, not eliminating them. Not that this isn't beneficial, but it's not the best solution, and it won't fix a lot of problems. I'm a fan of the live end/dead end room. Treat the wall behind the speakers, treat the floor (carpet and thick pad), treat the first reflection points if you want, but use diffusers on the rear wall. In fact, I really prefer diffusers at the first reflection point as well. If only they weren't so obtrusive.

Bass traps are a good idea, but unfortunately, most of them don't work, and those that do are very expensive. It's the same problem as with normal velocity absorbers, they mostly just reduce the amplitude a little, they don't stop standing waves. Tuned traps such as resonant panel traps work better in my experience, but like I said, are really expensive. Multiple subs will largely alleviate the room mode problems anyway, so you may find you can get away without any bass traps.

First off, if "ultimate" is your goal, you shouldn't even consider running this thing on a receiver.

For HT? That's very debatable. Top of the line receivers can sound just as good if not better for dialogue and sound effects than mellowed class a stuff that audiophiles crave.

For HT? That's very debatable. Top of the line receivers can sound just as good if not better for dialogue and sound effects than mellowed class a stuff that audiophiles crave.

So Class A sounds mellow? All separates are Class A now huh? I have no doubt in my mind that separates can be better than receivers, I won't argue sound quality, thats subjective and debatable, but they are more flexible.

In order to not confuse this person, and because I think his budget will limit him some, I will agree he should use a receiver, but it won't be because they can or do sound better. It will be because it offers him the best value, and opens up the most budget for important things like speakers.

So Class A sounds mellow? All separates are Class A now huh? I have no doubt in my mind that separates can be better than receivers, I won't argue sound quality, thats subjective and debatable, but they are more flexible.

In order to not confuse this person, and because I think his budget will limit him some, I will agree he should use a receiver, but it won't be because they can or do sound better. It will be because it offers him the best value, and opens up the most budget for important things like speakers.
I agree with Pj here. There is no doubt in my mind separates will sound better. It's simply impossible to have one box do everything perfectly (be your processor, provide all power to all channels without crosstalk, have tons of reserve power ready to go at all times). My point was when the OP said he wanted "ultimate," then if you want "ultimate," you can't get there with a receiver. If you want "decent" or "good" or "great," that's a horse of a different color.

I find one of the most interesting aspects of this post being that it started with the idea of Ultimate, then budgeted to what was probably percieved as a very large budget, and then what rather quickly became seen as a decent but small budget. I don't mean this in a rude way, simply to point out how easy it is to spend a lot of money really quickly in this field. I'm guessing that many of you have done as I have and purchased items over time, spreading out the expenses. If someone said, Hey Matt, you willing to spend 30 grand on a HT, I'd probably choke at the thought of such a big number. If someone says, what's it cost to reproduce what you have, and I sit and add it up, that number quickly climbs into that zone.

I too would look at the JTR speakers (http://www.jtrspeakers.com/). They are just crazy efficient. There are some threads here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1062777) about them and owners go nuts talking about them.

You have a really large room and something like the JTRs would fill it with ease.

I agree with Pj here. There is no doubt in my mind separates will sound better.

But you'd have to agree that it is in theory. By accepting digital in, short signal paths, the receiver can sound better than lower end separates. Otherwise, why bother getting an expensive integrated or high end receiver? Though ultimately it's in the ears.

So Class A sounds mellow? All separates are Class A now huh?

The ones that aren't Class A sound worse than Class D or high end receivers, at least to my ears. My point is that the subject of separates vs integrated vs receiver is very debatable. If separates really sound that good, they won't be selling high end integrateds cuz no one will buy them.

But you'd have to agree that it is in theory. By accepting digital in, short signal paths, the receiver can sound better than lower end separates. Otherwise, why bother getting an expensive integrated or high end receiver? Though ultimately it's in the ears.
In theory, perhaps, but in reality, no. The problem with a receiver is that you can't isolate all of the circuits completely from one another because they all share the same box and the same power supply. No, the reason people buy a high end receiver over separates isn't due to performance. It's due to ease of use and convenience.

In theory, perhaps, but in reality, no. The problem with a receiver is that you can't isolate all of the circuits completely from one another because they all share the same box and the same power supply. No, the reason people buy a high end receiver over separates isn't due to performance. It's due to ease of use and convenience.

Agreed