ok so im looking to upgrade my sub from a polk psw1000 which im very disapointed with to either dual hsu uls 15's or a klipsch rt12d. The guy at my local ht store highly recomended the klipsch, i mentoned the hsu and said to him that i wanted a dual sub setup but he said for the money the klipsch was the best choice. I suspect that he did not recomend hsu because they do not sell the subs, so i pose the question to the form. What is the better choice

Go Hsu.

Go Hsu.

this was def my first choice, do you know if the hsu has a remote

also i really love the piano black and the small size of the sub, the piano black will look really nice with my polk lsi setup

No remote with the ULS-15.

ahhh thats a letdown, i wonder if there is anyway to customize the sub to not have a wireless connection for a discount as i have no intrest in that option

ahhh thats a letdown, i wonder if there is anyway to customize the sub to not have a wireless connection for a discount as i have no intrest in that option

Since it is built-in to the amp, I doubt it.

this was def my first choice, do you know if the hsu has a remote

Why do you need a remote for the subwoofer? You only need to set the subwoofer parameters upon initial calibration. I doubt you'll change anything after that.

ahhh thats a letdown, i wonder if there is anyway to customize the sub to not have a wireless connection for a discount as i have no intrest in that option

It's built-in on the amplifier so getting it without wireless is unlikely.

Why don't you want wireless? Even if it's placed near your receiver, it'll still look good without the wires. Plus you can place one nearfield EASILY compared to other subwoofers (and also anywhere else).

Even a single HSU will kick the $h*t out of the Klipsch. Definitely go with HSUs. Don't listen to dealer's advice.

ok so im looking to upgrade my sub from a polk psw1000 which im very disapointed with to either dual hsu uls 15's or a klipsch rt12d. The guy at my local ht store highly recomended the klipsch, i mentoned the hsu and said to him that i wanted a dual sub setup but he said for the money the klipsch was the best choice. I suspect that he did not recomend hsu because they do not sell the subs, so i pose the question to the form. What is the better choice

how big is your room?

ahhh thats a letdown, i wonder if there is anyway to customize the sub to not have a wireless connection for a discount as i have no intrest in that option

You dont need a remote with a sub and a receiver/amp....
You have the receiver lfe (sub level) so you do have a sub remote...:D

how big is your room?

well the room right now is about 20ftx10ft, but i will be moving everything to a larger room in the future

Get the HSU's.

HSU's for sure.

If you really don't want to pay for wireless, a pair of these should get the job done nicely.

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F15.html

Even a single HSU will kick the $h*t out of the Klipsch.Yeah, the OP kinda got it backwards. Maybe it should say "dual klipsch rt12ds or one hsu uls15". And even then you might still have to give the nod to the HSU.

i really wish that there was a way to audition the hsu subs, or even see them in person. This is a big drawback

i really wish that there was a way to audition the hsu subs, or even see them in person. This is a big drawback
Were do u live at?

i live in south florida

I believe HSU has a 30 day money back guarantee no? One ULS-15 will best 2 of the Klipsch subs.

Your other option is to go to the Hsu thread and see if there are owners in S. FL willing to do a demo for you.

-Chad

Your other option is to go to the Hsu thread and see if there are owners in S. FL willing to do a demo for you.

-Chad

+1. Someone might be willing to help you with an audition. :)

Klipsch is very capable but I doubt it will match a hsu15. Wireless is a very nice option when placing option is not optimal. I wouldn't mind getting either.

Klipsch is very capable

I hope you are joking.

If we look at some GP numbers provided by Ed Mullen in his review of the Klipsch, it is 14dB down at 20Hz. It barely musters out 90dB at 20Hz with 15% THD. Those are some HORRIBLE numbers.

I hope you are joking.

If we look at some GP numbers provided by Ed Mullen in his review of the Klipsch, it is 14dB down at 20Hz. It barely musters out 90dB at 20Hz with 15% THD. Those are some HORRIBLE numbers.

Capable is all in the eye of the beholder. If he's never heard a great subwoofer, then his account is relevant to him! :p

Those are some HORRIBLE numbers.Relative to what? Are depth and SPL your only subwoofer criteria?

Here are Noussaine's numbers for the RT12d:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/speakers/1850/test-bench-klipsch-rf-83-home-theater-speaker-system.html

91dB @ 20Hz w/10% distortion
max output occurred @ 32Hz = 110dB w/10% distortion
25Hz - 62Hz average = 107dB

Just for comparison, Noussaine measures a VTF3-3Turbo:
93dB @ 20Hz w/10% distortion
83dB @ 16Hz w/10% distortion
max output occurred @ 50Hz = 109dB w/10% distortion
25Hz - 62Hz average = 105dB
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/speakers/2311/test-bench-five-mid-price-subwoofers-page2.html


91dB @ 20Hz is not that bad, actually. The main issue with the RT12d is that it is expensive for what you get if depth and SPL are your only criteria.



Of course, the ULS15 SHOULD outperform a RT12d.

These are the only test results I could find for the ULS15. They test differently, here. Noussaine uses a 10% distortion limit and measures the output at that limit at 2 meters. Here, they simply measure the distortion at 20Hz @ 100dB @ 1ft..

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/speaker-reviews/home-theater-speakers/hsu-research-uls-15-subwoofer-and-hb-1/hc-1-mk2-speakers_5.html




Noussaine's F112 measurements just for comparison, too:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/speakers/1853/test-bench-jl-audio-fathom-f112-subwoofer.html

80dB @ 16Hz w/10% distortion - no 20Hz numbers available, there, unfortunately
max output occurred at 62Hz (the highest he measures) @ 114dB w/10% distortion
25Hz to 62Hz average = 108dB

This sub, too, is expensive if depth and SPL are your only criteria.

Tom Nousaine's measurements are messed up. Look at the Conquest, PB13, and Genelec's numbers. They're far lower than GP 2M numbers.

I'm gonna use your example of the F112 numbers. The F113 did almost 97dB at 16Hz. How can its smaller brother, with a woofer small just 1.5'' smaller, produce almost 17dB less output? The F112's woofer must have less than half an inch of excursion if those numbers are true, which is obviously not.

A VTF3 I remember can output 101dB at 20Hz GP 2M.

True, rt12 at 20hz it ain't much but at 30 up, it'll kick most sub's @$$. 130db. I still prefer hsu15 at the end of the day.

True, at 20hz it ain't much but at 30 up, it'll kick most sub's @$$.

Let me just pull up some more numbers.

20Hz --- 90dB

22Hz --- 95dB

25Hz --- 98dB

32Hz --- 104dB

40Hz --- 108dB

50Hz --- 109dB

63Hz --- 110dB

80Hz --- 106dB

That's a 20-80Hz average of 102.5dB.

For comparison, a $549 Epik Valor can output 109dB across that range (more like 20-63Hz). A HSU VTF 3 can output 108dB. A SVS PB13 can output a higher number at 16Hz.

The numbers above 40Hz are OKish, but definitely not kicking ass.

I'm gonna edit my post since I see you've edited yours. I don't know where you got your 130dB output number. On the Klipsch site it says 120dB @ 30Hz, 1M, 1/8 space.

I'm not gonna questioning the accuracy of Kipsch's results, but subwoofers are measured at 2M at 1/2 space.

Converting output numbers measured in 1M @ 1/8 space requires a drop of 18dB (1/8 to 1/2 is 12dB, 1M to 2M is 6dB). 120-18=102dB

Tom Nousaine's measurements are messed up. Look at the Conquest, PB13, and Genelec's numbers. They're far lower than GP 2M numbers.Than whose GP 2M numbers?


The F113 did almost 97dB at 16Hz.In who's hands? Illka's?


A VTF3 I remember can output 101dB at 20Hz GP 2M.In whose hands? Illka's?


You can't meaningfully compare one person's measurements to another's. I am comfortable comparing Noussaine's numbers to his own numbers. And Illka's numbers to his own numbers.

And, again, are depth and SPL your ONLY criteria? If they are, that's fine, but that is not the whole story.

The only point I am making is that the RT12d is not the "horrible" sub you make it out to be. It is just too expensive. If its cost was comparable to, for example, a VTF3-3Turbo, it would be a VERY reasonable consideration.

Dude, where are you getting your numbers from? Stop making up numbers man

Let me just pull up some more numbers.

20Hz --- 90dB

22Hz --- 95dB

25Hz --- 98dB

32Hz --- 104dB

40Hz --- 108dB

50Hz --- 109dB

63Hz --- 110dB

80Hz --- 106dB

That's a 20-80Hz average of 102.5dB.

For comparison, a $549 Epik Valor can output 109dB across that range (more like 20-63Hz). A HSU VTF 3 can output 108dB. A SVS PB13 can output a higher number at 16Hz.

The numbers above 40Hz are OKish, but definitely not kicking ass.Again, whose numbers are you comparing? Links?

Klipsch's numbers.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_4/klipsch-rt-12d-subwoofer-december-2006-part-2.html

Can we agree that GP numbers are relatively comparable, + or - 1dB? I only compare GP numbers because they're accurate and consistent

Ilkka's GP 2M method is the harshest way to test a subwoofer.

Some numbers are from Craig's ranking thread. He does a GP 2M test as well.

Thanks for the link, Intresting data there.

Can we agree that GP numbers are relatively comparable, + or - 1dB?I don't know. Can you link me to at least 10 different subs' GP 2M measurements from 2 different testers?


Ed's measurement of 95dB @ 22Hz w/10% distortion is pretty respectable, btw. Again, it is just too expensive. Do you have links to some of Ed's other subwoofer tests?

ok so im looking to upgrade my sub from a polk psw1000 which im very disapointed with to either dual hsu uls 15's or a klipsch rt12d. The guy at my local ht store highly recomended the klipsch, i mentoned the hsu and said to him that i wanted a dual sub setup but he said for the money the klipsch was the best choice. I suspect that he did not recomend hsu because they do not sell the subs, so i pose the question to the form. What is the better choice

I'd go with with the two HSU subs. Not because I don't think you'd be less unhappy with either the HSU or the Klipsch, but because when you install the replacement sub(s) and find yourself still wallowing in disappointment the HSU with it's wireless option will ultimately facilitate more and potentially better placement options within your room.

its very challenging to measure subwoofers with ports or pr's on different sides outdoors. in a room its not a problem because they will coupling better to the walls and the direction of the ports wont matter, but outdoors there is a difference in response opposed to the same subwoofers with all ports / passives / drivers on one side (assuming the same box volumes)

The RT-12 passives fire away from the mic. Sure, at 20Hz, we're talking about ~100Ft wavelength, but there are losses that occur. A relative in room corner measurement would eliminate that detail.

its very challenging to measure subwoofers with ports or pr's on different sides outdoors. in a room its not a problem because they will coupling better to the walls and the direction of the ports wont matter, but outdoors there is a difference in response opposed to the same subwoofers with all ports / passives / drivers on one side (assuming the same box volumes)

The RT-12 passives fire away from the mic. Sure, at 20Hz, we're talking about ~100Ft wavelength, but there are losses that occur. A relative in room corner measurement would eliminate that detail.
Kyle, that has been a criticism of Illka's ground plane testing in the past. It has also been suggested that some companies have changed the orientation of their ports to get better ground plane numbers for that very reason.

You can't really blame Ilkka for that can you? Ilkka has to test all of the subwoofers the same way so it is fair. Ilkka also does a realistic measurement, because the way he measures it is similar to the location where we listen to the sub. We won't adjust the subwoofer so the porting is facing us.

To sivadselim

If you look at Ilkka, AVTalk, and Craig's GP data, they're very similar. If you want to compare, look at SVS's older subs (like the old Ultra), since all 3 testers have tested them. I think you can look at HSU subs too, but I'm not sure if AVTalk tested them.

You can't really blame Ilkka for that can you? Ilkka has to test all of the subwoofers the same way so it is fair. Ilkka also does a realistic measurement, because the way he measures it is similar to the location where we listen to the sub. We won't adjust the subwoofer so the porting is facing us.
I am not blaming Illka for anything, it is just a shortcoming of the testing...plain and simple. Why is it realistic? It is no more realistic than any other groundplane measurement.

Edit: I understand the confusion....it reads like I singled out Illka. It is a problem with ground plane testing in general...not just Illka's.

I'd go with with the two HSU subs. Not because I don't think you'd be less unhappy with either the HSU or the Klipsch, but because when you install the replacement sub(s) and find yourself still wallowing in disappointment the HSU with it's wireless option will ultimately facilitate more and potentially better placement options within your room.

what makes you think i would be disapointed??

what makes you think i would be disapointed??

It depends on the reasons why you're disappointed with your current sub. A good sub can measure and sound bad with incorrect placement and a presumed "bad" sub could sound good with relatively better placement. If your current woes are due to less than ideal sub position (ie: a huge null in a range you're particularly focussed ) a so-called better sub in the same postion won't improve upon that set of conditions much.

Kyle, that has been a criticism of Illka's ground plane testing in the past. It has also been suggested that some companies have changed the orientation of their ports to get better ground plane numbers for that very reason.


Sure, but i'm sure you also appreciate the fact its very impractical to change designs simply to accommodate the uncommon half-space environment application especially with passive radiators. Even large ports can be tricky to place in a box.

Sure, but i'm sure you also appreciate the fact its very impractical to change designs simply to accommodate the uncommon half-space environment application especially with passive radiators. Even large ports can be tricky to place in a box.
Maybe so, but output numbers sell a lot of subs. Just in the last couple of years, SVS has gone from down firing drivers and rear ports, to front firing drivers and front firing ports. It certainly gives them an advantage in half-space output numbers.....and that sells subs.