I haven't found a clear answer to the question of recording sub channels on a dvd recorder. Do all dvd recorders (with digital tuners of course) have the capability of recording sub channels IE 103-108?
I don't own a digital dvd recorder yet but my Hitachi plasma V702 tv is able to receive over 50 sub channels. But of course I have no way of recording them. I'm on comcast and use their DCT3412 DVR but it does not receive any sub channels. I want to buy a dvd recorder with a digital tuner in hopes that it will be able to receive all the same sub channels my Hitachi V702 receives. I'm also wondering if any of the first generation dvd recorders out there (with tuners) are even worth buying.
I think the reality and idea of sub channel recording slipped past those involved in the digital upgrade.
I found one company (see links below) that applied for a patent on their device that is specifically designed to record sub channels. Of course this device is obsolete if all the new dvd recorders can record sub channels. If any one has specific information on recording sub channels on a dvd recorder, please respond.
http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=EP&NR=1685706&KC=&FT=E
www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?wo=2004100163&IA=US2004013862&DISPLAY=STATUS

The Philips 3576 and Magnavox 2160 record subchannels, like 60.1, 60.2, etc. They have 160GB HDDs and 36 timer-rec program slots.

Click #1 in my signature for lots of organized info.

Pretty much any DVD recorder with an ATSC tuner can record all the subchannels off the air with an antenna. From cable, forget it: its a total crapshoot depending on how nasty and sneaky your cable provider is about screwing with the frequencies. That said, there are only three DVD recorders left on the American market that are worth buying: Panasonic EZ-28 (DVD-only), or the Magnavox H2160 or Phillips 3576 (DVD+hard drive) recommended by wajo in his detailed posts. Of these I would probably opt for the Magnavox as the best feature/value proposition. Other machines you see may be cheaper or have a "better" brand name, but they are ALL uniformly poor and you will end up returning them to the store. Save yourself the aggravation and buy what works.

I haven't found a clear answer to the question of recording sub channels on a dvd recorder. Do all dvd recorders (with digital tuners of course) have the capability of recording sub channels IE 103-108?
I don't own a digital dvd recorder yet but my Hitachi plasma V702 tv is able to receive over 50 sub channels. But of course I have no way of recording them. I'm on comcast and use their DCT3412 DVR but it does not receive any sub channels. I want to buy a dvd recorder with a digital tuner in hopes that it will be able to receive all the same sub channels my Hitachi V702 receives. I'm also wondering if any of the first generation dvd recorders out there (with tuners) are even worth buying.
I think the reality and idea of sub channel recording slipped past those involved in the digital upgrade.
I found one company . . . that applied for a patent on their device that is specifically designed to record sub channels. Of course this device is obsolete if all the new dvd recorders can record sub channels. If any one has specific information on recording sub channels on a dvd recorder, please respond.

The Comcast converter box "maps" some or all the sub-channels to Comcast's own channel line-up that may be very different than what you may see on your Hitachi V702 connected directly to Comcast's coax cable without the converter box. Some sub-channel (locations) found on the coax cable connection may vary from those you would find on a digital-tuner TV connected to an antenna.

A number of the "mapped channels" are "scrambled" channels that require the cable company converter box to unscramble. No DVD recorder may unscramble these channels on its own. A cable company DVR also unscrambles and maps these channels to their "locations." That DVR also allows the recording of these channels to its internal hard drive. Cable company DVRs do not produce DVD recordings.

A DVD recorder connected to a cable company DVR may or may not be able to record programming depending upon the copyright encoding embeded in the programs/commercials themselves, the whims of program providers or the cable company itself.

DVD recorders presently in the US market are the "last generation" of DVD recorders, soon to be extinct.

The entertainment industry, in collusion with government and satellite/cable providers now prevent or restrict/limit the copying of programming (in the same quality as the original program) when recording to removable media (DVDs).

hi everyone and thanks for your replies. it sounds as if anyone not already owning a digital dvd recorder will be totally out of luck soon. i waited to long to get walmarts fantastic low price and amazons $850.00 is a little steep. what do you guys think the options will be later this year or next year for digital recording...that is if digital dvd recorders are not going to be sold. and if we can't buy a digital dvd recorder i wonder whats going to be available for digital and sub channel recording? I would think the manf. would start selling their brand of DVR's. It would be great if they went this route but I guess that would violate some broadcasting copyrights. I really like the comcast dvr and i've seen they are for sale in canada but the price is really high. (i use a three way splitter coming out of the wall. one line goes straight into my tv, second line runs into the dvr and the third line I still have into my old vcr. this was the line i wanted to run into a new dvd recorder..oh well)

pioneerplasma,

I still see Walmart's Magnovox for $249. Some places still have the Panasonic series. Some Circuit City stores have the Panny DMR-EZ28K for $183. No hard drive, but does have a NTSC/QAM/ATSC tuner which works quite well.

...i use a three way splitter coming out of the wall. one line goes straight into my tv, second line runs into the dvr and the third line I still have into my old vcr. this was the line i wanted to run into a new dvd recorder..oh well)No need to be discouraged. I think you may misunderstand the responses. Whatever your tv's QAM tuner picks up, your new dvd recorder will most likely get the same off the coax you now run to your vcr. I think what the others are trying to say is you never know when the cable company will start scrambling the channels you get today, and the ones you do get have strange channel numbers.

If you're interested in a panasonic, I'd check out ebay. From time to time they have a lot of refurbs/returns in great condiditon at very good prices (my last EZ48 was $80 shipped and practically mint). Just read the descriptions carefully.

EDIT: I'm a little confused by your first post. You say your cable box doesn't get sub-channels, but your tv does. That's normal, but I don't think your missing anything. The sub-channels you see on your tv get remapped to other main channels in the box, so the net is the same, save for a few hidden pay-per-views possibly.

I would think the manf. would start selling their brand of DVR's. It would be great if they went this route but I guess that would violate some broadcasting copyrights.

Consumer owned DVRs already exist on the market. TiVo has been around since the beginning of DVR, and the Moxi has been released. Both use a cableCARD to decrypt the restricted channels.

The downside is that they're not cheap; TiVo has a subscription unless you pay for lifetime service, totaling around $700, Moxi is $800. DVRs are expensive to make and the cable companies offer their DVRs for $10 a month, so not many consumer electronics makers are willing to make the plunge into the market yet. Maybe in the future, but don't expect the prices to fall anytime soon.


I really like the comcast dvr and i've seen they are for sale in canada but the price is really high.

DVRs sold in Canada are largely useless for the American market. American cable companies prefer you to rent their equipment, and make it so any box has to be activated by them. Which they limit to their own boxes or to cableCARDs (they don't really activate a TiVo, just the card inside.)

Hi thanks for the reply. I completly overlooked the fact that the cable co. has to activate the box. you're right, that makes the one from Ca. usless.
Yes I have looked at Tivo for years now but I just can't bring myself to pay the monthly fees.

pioneerplasma,

I still see Walmart's Magnovox for $249. Some places still have the Panasonic series. Some Circuit City stores have the Panny DMR-EZ28K for $183. No hard drive, but does have a NTSC/QAM/ATSC tuner which works quite well.

Hi thanks for the reply, I see the picture of the magnavox at walmart but when I cliked for info it says Out of Stock Online and Not Sold in Stores. click on the picture of the item and it gives the details.

No need to be discouraged. I think you may misunderstand the responses. Whatever your tv's QAM tuner picks up, your new dvd recorder will most likely get the same off the coax you now run to your vcr. I think what the others are trying to say is you never know when the cable company will start scrambling the channels you get today, and the ones you do get have strange channel numbers.

If you're interested in a panasonic, I'd check out ebay. From time to time they have a lot of refurbs/returns in great condiditon at very good prices (my last EZ48 was $80 shipped and practically mint). Just read the descriptions carefully.

EDIT: I'm a little confused by your first post. You say your cable box doesn't get sub-channels, but your tv does. That's normal, but I don't think your missing anything. The sub-channels you see on your tv get remapped to other main channels in the box, so the net is the same, save for a few hidden pay-per-views possibly.

Hi and thank for your help. okay I see what you guys are saying now thank you. I have noticed in the past couple of weeks that channels are getting shuffled around. I thought it was because they were anticipating the digital upgrade (thats been moved to June).
I'm wanting to get a digital dvd recorder that will record and play dvd ram. I have 2 panasonic EH75V's and all my stuff is on ram. (I like ram because it holds alot and you can create chapters) Analog of course is useless now and I can't believe panasonic didn't want to offer these in digital models. I read they thought most consumers want DVR. This might be true but you can't buy them and setups like Tivo are way too expensive for me.
So what digital dvd model would you buy that play and record Ram disc?

Hi thanks for the reply, I see the picture of the magnavox at walmart but when I cliked for info it says Out of Stock Online and Not Sold in Stores. click on the picture of the item and it gives the details.

They should restock it at some point.

The Philips clone is for sale now at WalMart.com. It's slightly higher ($298 vs. $249.)

Consumer owned DVRs already exist on the market. TiVo has been around since the beginning of DVR, and the Moxi has been released. Both use a cableCARD to decrypt the restricted channels.

The downside is that they're not cheap; TiVo has a subscription unless you pay for lifetime service, totaling around $700, Moxi is $800. DVRs are expensive to make and the cable companies offer their DVRs for $10 a month, so not many consumer electronics makers are willing to make the plunge into the market yet. Maybe in the future, but don't expect the prices to fall anytime soon.I don't think that cable company DVRs are really that expensive to make. Here in Canada, on Boxing Day (the day after Christmas and roughly equivalent to the US "Black Friday"), limited numbers of Scientific-Atlanta 4250HD (non-HDD) and 8300HD (160 GB HDD) settop boxes were available for less than 30 CAD (~24 USD) and 170 CAD (~138 USD), respectively. (Regular list prices are CAD 250 and CAD 500.) I doubt that these were being sold at a loss, so wholesale prices to cable providers are probably even less.

Tony

Wholesale to a cable company, sure the unit prices might be cheap, but you'll never find consumer prices that cheap in the US for the ones you can buy (TiVo and Moxi). In the end, it doesn't matter how much they really cost, just how much you can get one that will work with your provider.

If you break a DVR in the US, the cost of replacement (if you're liable) is about the same for the regular retail cost of Canadian units, which isn't too far from a retail TiVo or Moxi.

I doubt that these were being sold at a loss, so wholesale prices to cable providers are probably even less.


How do you know they weren't sold at a loss? That's common among holiday sales, unless the store only sold those units and nothing else. Maybe it's different in Canada, but a sub-$200 US DVR you can actually own would be one of the Holy Grails.

Either that or Moxi and TiVo have gigantic profit margin expectations. Given the competition from cable rented DVRs, I don't think that's the case.

Wholesale to a cable company, sure the unit prices might be cheap, but you'll never find consumer prices that cheap in the US for the ones you can buy (TiVo and Moxi). In the end, it doesn't matter how much they really cost, just how much you can get one that will work with your provider.

If you break a DVR in the US, the cost of replacement (if you're liable) is about the same for the regular retail cost of Canadian units, which isn't too far from a retail TiVo or Moxi.

How do you know they weren't sold at a loss? That's common among holiday sales, unless the store only sold those units and nothing else. Maybe it's different in Canada, but a sub-$200 US DVR you can actually own would be one of the Holy Grails.

Either that or Moxi and TiVo have gigantic profit margin expectations.I was addressing your specific statement that "DVRs are expensive to make"; sorry if I didn't make that clear.

Tony

I understand.

The truth could be anything, though. Even if they cost $10 to make, we in the US will probably never see them that cheap, except on a month to month basis.

They should restock it at some point.

The Philips clone is for sale now at WalMart.com. It's slightly higher ($298 vs. $249.)

Hi thanks for letting me know about these models however, neither one plays or records DVD-RAM which is what I need. I have 2 panasonic EH75V's Analog DVD Recorders with 160gb HD's that have been fantastic (for me) and I recorded all my stuff on Ram Disc. Man I wish panasonic would manufacture these with digital tuners. These analog models are of course dinosaurs so now I need comparable Digital dvd recorders. Do you know of a reasonably priced model ($200-$400) for playing and recording DVD-RAM?

Hi and thank for your help. okay I see what you guys are saying now thank you. I have noticed in the past couple of weeks that channels are getting shuffled around. I thought it was because they were anticipating the digital upgrade (thats been moved to June).
I'm wanting to get a digital dvd recorder that will record and play dvd ram. I have 2 panasonic EH75V's and all my stuff is on ram. (I like ram because it holds alot and you can create chapters) Analog of course is useless now and I can't believe panasonic didn't want to offer these in digital models. I read they thought most consumers want DVR. This might be true but you can't buy them and setups like Tivo are way too expensive for me.
So what digital dvd model would you buy that play and record Ram disc?

If you'd also like a HDD I'd say none will have a HDD, a digital tuner and record to RAM.
Honestly have you considered adding a digital converter box to your EH-75? Many on AVS(including myself with the EH-55) are doing just that. We get great wide screen recordings. If you're OTA I'd suggest a CM-7000 and if you're on cable you'll want one with a QAM tuner and S-video output. Your EH-75 will be able to change the channels on your converter by using it's IR blaster so you'll be able to record from multiple channels unattended.
As Wajo said with a HDD you really don't need RAM discs as much. You just record to HDD, edit and add your chapters then burn HS to a standard DVD, chapters intact. If you just want to be able to play your existing RAM discs then any Panny DVD player or even your EH-75 would be able to do that. You'd just need 2 machines.

Do they still make the LG 787T?

I doubt it but the LG doesn't have a HDD. I personally would be very leary of LG DVDRs, they don't seem to have a good track record. I owned one for a short while and wasn't very impressed by it's PQ.
Canada still sells LG DVDRs w/HDDs but they lack the digital tuner but yes LGs do record to RAM as well as Pioneers but again no digital tuner in the Pios.

Hi thanks for the reply, I see the picture of the magnavox at walmart but when I cliked for info it says Out of Stock Online and Not Sold in Stores. click on the picture of the item and it gives the details.

When I look at Walmart.com the Magnavox is not even listed or pictured anymore. I noticed this about a day ago.

If you'd also like a HDD I'd say none will have a HDD, a digital tuner and record to RAM.
Honestly have you considered adding a digital converter box to your EH-75? Many on AVS(including myself with the EH-55) are doing just that. We get great wide screen recordings. If you're OTA I'd suggest a CM-7000 and if you're on cable you'll want one with a QAM tuner and S-video output. Your EH-75 will be able to change the channels on your converter by using it's IR blaster so you'll be able to record from multiple channels unattended.
As Wajo said with a HDD you really don't need RAM discs as much. You just record to HDD, edit and add your chapters then burn HS to a standard DVD, chapters intact. If you just want to be able to play your existing RAM discs then any Panny DVD player or even your EH-75 would be able to do that. You'd just need 2 machines.

Hi jjeff, thank you for your reply and great suggestion. Correct I use the HDD for 1st gen. recording and then dub it down to RAM. However sometimes I just burn the signal straight to RAM disc. I'm on comcast and use 1 of their DVR's which is a fantastic machine. I would love to have 3-4 of them. Right now I can only afford to rent 1 of these and 2 of the standard cable boxes. (We have 5 tvs but 2 are in guest rooms)
I actually got my 2 coupons in the mail a few weeks ago for the digital converter boxes. I have been waiting to see what box would be best for my setup. So what box with QAM and s-video do you think would work best with my setup?

I actually got my 2 coupons in the mail a few weeks ago for the digital converter boxes. I have been waiting to see what box would be best for my setup. So what box with QAM and s-video do you think would work best with my setup?

If you mean coupons from the gov't for converter boxes for the digital transition, those won't work with cable. They only work with an antenna for over-the-air signals, i.e., the old rabbit ears. They're ATSC, not QAM.

You can get a QAM tuner, but don't expect the gov't to subsidize it. Or you can go the antenna route if the TVs don't need anything more than locals.

^^^what Tulpa said, AFA OTA CECBs the CM-7000 seems to be a favorite for it's great PQ(via S-video) and also great reception.
If you're on cable you might want to check out the HDTV Technical forum. There are several (non coupon eligible) converter boxes with QAM.

If you mean coupons from the gov't for converter boxes for the digital transition, those won't work with cable. They only work with an antenna for over-the-air signals, i.e., the old rabbit ears. They're ATSC, not QAM.

You can get a QAM tuner, but don't expect the gov't to subsidize it. Or you can go the antenna route if the TVs don't need anything more than locals.

Hi Tupla, Okay I got it. You're right, I was thinking I could use the coupons to get QAM tuners. And I completly missed what jjeff was saying. Now I got it. Anyway, I originally got the coupons for tv's in the 2 guest bedrooms because I didn't run the cable into those rooms. Those 2 tv's use OTA. So I'll stick with plan "A" and use the coupons for boxes for the guest room tv's.
Now RE: QAM tuner vs buying new digital DVD recorder
So what you guys are saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, is I can get a QAM tuner and run it through my panasonic EH75V. This will, in effect, turn my analog EH75's tuner into a digital tunner by using the QAM's digital signal....correct? That sounds correct to me and I hadn't thought of it...very cool idea and that way I can continue to use my EH75 and not have to worry about buying a new digital dvd recorder...is this what you guys are doing?

Yes you've got it. Other than for the analog cable channels you won't be using your EH-75s built in tuner. Using the IR blaster you'll be able to have your EH-75 send out a IR signal to automatically change the channels on your QAM converter box. Just make sure the converter box you get uses older IR codes that your EH-75 can send. You'll also want to make sure your converter box has a S-video output. Depending on your display and how fussy you are it can make a real difference. You'll be recording from the EH-75s line input for QAM channels and it's built in tuner for analog cable channels.
Others may know of a good QAM converter box to use with your EH-75. I'm only familiar with OTA ATSC boxes.

I don't know of any QAM tuners which can be controlled by IR blasters. There may be one, but you'd have to do some really heavy research and ask around a lot of places, and possibly on a lot of other forums, to find out (but you could try asking on the dedicated threads for whichever boxes are covered here first).

A good choice of tuner otherwise for what you'd want might be this one: http://www.epvision.com/

It has integrated QAM and NTSC, so you'll be able to pick up all the analog channels you're cable company may be sending you with the same tuner (it does ATSC, also). There's a big thread in the Technical forum on it, and you could maybe ask over there if anyone has ever found a code or way to control it with an IR blaster.

The Samsung DTB-H260F does QAM and ATSC (and has RF pass-through, so you can use the recorder's NTSC tuner for the analog channels if you want), but the "reminder" feature in the guide that you can use to change channels with is very spotty and undependable. For instance, if the guide info for a block says "No Information", you can't set it to change to that channel and time block. But if the stations ever get their act together with the PSIP info (and time), that issue may improve (many people are expecting that to get better after the analog cutoff). Thing is, you can only use the guide that way and get info for the OTA stations, not the QAM cable ones.

I don't know of any QAM tuners which can be controlled by IR blasters. There may be one, but you'd have to do some really heavy research and ask around a lot of places, and possibly on a lot of other forums, to find out (but you could try asking on the dedicated threads for whichever boxes are covered here first).

A good choice of tuner otherwise for what you'd want might be this one: http://www.epvision.com/

It has integrated QAM and NTSC, so you'll be able to pick up all the analog channels you're cable company may be sending you with the same tuner (it does ATSC, also). There's a big thread in the Technical forum on it, and you could maybe ask over there if anyone has ever found a code or way to control it with an IR blaster.

The Samsung DTB-H260F does QAM and ATSC (and has RF pass-through, so you can use the recorder's NTSC tuner for the analog channels if you want), but the "reminder" feature in the guide that you can use to change channels with is very spotty and undependable. For instance, if the guide info for a block says "No Information", you can't set it to change to that channel and time block. But if the stations ever get their act together with the PSIP info (and time), that issue may improve (many people are expecting that to get better after the analog cutoff). Thing is, you can only use the guide that way and get info for the OTA stations, not the QAM cable ones.

Hi and thanks for the suggestion. I checked out the box at ePVision and it looks GREAT! I think thats exactaly what I'm looking for. But before I buy it I'm going to do a little more reading at the avs tech thread you mentioned. thanks again! You guys have all been a big help.

When I look at Walmart.com the Magnavox is not even listed or pictured anymore. I noticed this about a day ago.

Hi Mike, Yeah I've noticed Walmart is changing their in-stock status everyday on this item. They actually have this Magnavox Model# ZV450MW8 listed as in stock now 2-17-09 but it probabaly won't last long. Too bad this Magnavox won't play DVD-Ram otherwise I would buy it.

Hi Mike, Yeah I've noticed Walmart is changing their in-stock status everyday on this item. They actually have this Magnavox Model# ZV450MW8 listed as in stock now 2-17-09 but it probabaly won't last long. Too bad this Magnavox won't play DVD-Ram otherwise I would buy it.

The ZV450MW8 is a DVDR / VCR combo unit. The one everyone is looking for is the H2160MW9 DVDR / 160GB HD unit. I would not expect the ZV450MW8 to go out of stock anytime soon. AVS members often caution people from buying DVDR / VCR combos (any brand) because they are all made with low quality parts.

Thanks for that correction Steeltown, you're right...my bad. I didn't take time to read the details on that Magnavox model. The facts are in the details. And you're right, the machines people really want have HD's. Manufactures must know this by now. Everybody wants DVR's with HD's. And the best ones have duel tuners like the one I rent from comcast, the Motorola DCT6412. Its great for HD recording. (But I also need to play RAM Disc since all my stuff is recorded on that format) However, the flexibility of this machine (DCT6412) should be the standard (ideally) for all player/recorders sold. It sets a benchmark for digital recorders and the fact that units like this are not readily available is probably due to a load of bureaucratic red tape BS. (The problem with Tivo and other subscriber systems is just that; you have to subscribe and pay their monthly fees which defeats the freedom of owning your own DVR) So, until copyrights etc. are worked out, consumers get to wade through a muddled selection of below par machines. In the meantime you can pay the cable Co. to Rent a top shelf DVR along with their high monthly fees. Or you can buy a top shelf DVR for astronomical prices and then pay that company’s monthly fees. Honestly though, even when consumers can buy (at a reasonable price) a digital DVR like the DCT6412, renting still might be a better deal because the upside to renting is you get a replacement if it breaks or gets struck by lightning. (and that really is a good deal!)

Actually, consumer owned hard drive DVD recorders used to be more plentiful. It wasn't so much copyrights and red tape that did them in, it was that no one bought them. It seems absolutely astonishing to AVSers and DVD archivists that no one wants these machines, but the cable company DVR and to a slightly lesser extent TiVo basically drove the HDD/DVDR machines off the market. Compared to the actual burning machines, the DVRs were easier to use and the public perceived $10 a month rental was more of a value, whether or not it actually is.

While a few more DVRs similar to the Motorola you mentioned may come on the market (the Moxi DVR, for example), general consensus is that the ones that can also burn DVDs are going the way of the dodo. If you want a Philips or Magnavox, buy it now.

It wasn't so much copyrights and red tape that did them in, it was that no one bought them.A lot of people bought them - but they also returned them. Remember how the "open box" sections of stores (especially Best Buy) used to always be so full of them? They were often just too complicated or too much trouble for the average person to use.

That is true, but the main point is that they never remained very long in the average consumer's home. :p

A lot of people bought them - but they also returned them. Remember how the "open box" sections of stores (especially Best Buy) used to always be so full of them? They were often just too complicated or too much trouble for the average person to use.

Bold added for emphasis

This might help restore your faith in the elderly. Check out this latest comment of an old lady in Florida who just bought a DVD recorder from walmart.com:

I purchased this Magnavox hard disk recorder from WalMart's on line. It was delivered to my local WalMart's within the time frame specified.

I am an elderly woman and had absolutely no problem installing this product in about 30 minutes tops. It is all that I expected and works perfectly. I usually use a recorder to record many TV shows and it was very simple to program. My previous disc recorder was a nightmare and more times than not, did not record my programs as timed. I have had no problem with the Magnavox recorder. It works like a charm and I am very happy with it.

You go granny! :p

Yeah, they're not that difficult for daily use, especially for just basic time-shifting. But you know how people get so intimidated and tend to make things more difficult than they actually are.

I guess it's not so surprising to see someone who's on a limited income be a little more independent and resourceful - other than all the perfectly-abled, learned-helplessness, lazy-a$$ed, ignoramuses who contributed to the postponement of the analog cutoff (you can see how I feel about that whole ordeal).

That granny got a 2160.

The downside is that they're not cheap; TiVo has a subscription unless you pay for lifetime service, totaling around $700

Just a bit of a clarification here. While you are right when using *list prices*, the actual price one can get these for including lifetime subscription is quite a bit less than that nowadays. (Don't get me wrong, I ended up paying about $850 total [inc tax, free shipping] for a Series 3 Tivo with lifetime subscription when it seemed like the lifetime subscription would never come back..)

On tivocommunity, people have posted various stores that have the TivoHD at $200. (Amazon has it for about $255 right now.) The "list price" for lifetime is $399, but if you happen to already have a subscribed Tivo, it's $299. So, that's either $500-$600 total assuming the cheap hardware price, with no Tivo fees ever again.

True, but I was speaking relative to a HDD/DVDR, which is what the OP was initially interested in.

Of course, people have different definitions of "cheap."

Thanks Tulpa, correct my Original Post was; Can digital DVD recorders record sub channels?

I think I'll forgo buying a new recorder and go with the option below:
I'm looking at the PHD-205 that "Rammit" suggested (by Prime DTV) epvision has it for $149. It's allot cheaper than buying a new recorder and it would be nice to continue to use my EH75. So the PHD-205 looks like the answer to my sub channel recording question.