I have recently built a massive subwoofer to compliment my living room which is slowly turning into some sort of party club space. Basically the seven speaker sound is driven by a 525 watt Onkyo TX-SR504. Previously I would wire the old 100 watt sub by 'Y-Splitting' each of the speaker wires that head to the mains. This would leave each chanel with one speaker wire headed into a main speaker and one headed into the sub. I never thought much about this (it is how the sub manual says to wire high level), but does it reduce the sound output? Change resistances? Possibly overload the amp? Etc. If not... what if I am now wiring TWO subwoofers via the "Y-Splitting" high level method as mentioned before.

In my mind everything is ideal when it is wired up line level with active speakers everywhere, obviously the are many reasons this isn't done. So what exactly is splitting the main speaker output into two subs doing for sound, hardware, etc. I have not had enough time with it setup like this to comment is the sound quality has degraded or anything of the sort, just been too busy and this has popped up on my mind.

I do not want to run LFE out of the receiver as this cuts low frequencies to my mains (ANNOYING) which happen to have relatively bassy drivers. I feel like it would be a total waste to not let the mains do their job. Any help/insight is appreciated!

most of your amp power goes to making bass. Making 20hz is hard on the amps and hard on your speakers, my paradigm 100's play deep but still sound better to me running small with a 40 hz cross to dual subs. It didn't sound bad full range but to me I noticed the treble sounded better, even with my old adcom 300 watt mono-blocs, so I say let the subs do the hard part.

most of your amp power goes to making bass. Making 20hz is hard on the amps and hard on your speakers, my paradigm 100's play deep but still sound better to me running small with a 40 hz cross to dual subs. It didn't sound bad full range but to me I noticed the treble sounded better, even with my old adcom 300 watt mono-blocs, so I say let the subs do the hard part.

Sorry, maybe I didn't explain correctly... both subwoofers are active. I am using the high level speaker line to give them signal and am hoping they are sucking up nothing more than signal basically.

Or did you mean that I should let the subs eat up the low frequencies that are currently making it to the main speakers? If so, I am a little perplexed as to why. The main speakers are 12's and have a nice bassy kick to them, seems like a waste to cut them off from the lows. I wonder what the x-over is set to for them.

You should be able to set your speakers to "large" in the receiver settings and still use the sub preout at line level to get a signal to your subs. in the marantz receivers there is an option to change what goes to the subs and mains when the mains are set to large. should have something similar in the onkyo.

either way, you're fine hooking up multiple subs with the speaker level leads. you are essentially putting the speaker level inputs in parallel with the speakers. those speaker level inputs have very high impedance (in the thousands of ohms), so they are not a load on the amp whatsoever, compared to the speakers at 4-8 ohms. a couple of the speaker level inputs in parallel with the speakers won't affect performance.

You should be able to set your speakers to "large" in the receiver settings and still use the sub preout at line level to get a signal to your subs. in the marantz receivers there is an option to change what goes to the subs and mains when the mains are set to large. should have something similar in the onkyo.

Setting the mains to large and Subwoofer to "ON" which turns on the LFE still cuts the lows off the mains. Its really annoying, maybe thats why Marantz makes a better reciever? Haha.

either way, you're fine hooking up multiple subs with the speaker level leads. you are essentially putting the speaker level inputs in parallel with the speakers. those speaker level inputs have very high impedance (in the thousands of ohms), so they are not a load on the amp whatsoever, compared to the speakers at 4-8 ohms. a couple of the speaker level inputs in parallel with the speakers won't affect performance.

PERFECT! Thank you. Do line out converters (LOC, high level to RCA) behave in the same manor? I assume so, otherwise they would be dissipating wattage => heat. I probably should of come to this logical conclusion myself.

I paralleled speaker outs to a subwoofer speaker level in before with an old stereo receiver that had no pre-outs or sub outs, and it went into protect. While I agree Xander's explanation and advice, given my experience it is also possible that it won't work.

I already wired it up. It works, at least at 1/4 volume. Sounds perfectly fine. It is possible that when I crank some other problems may become apparent. I cannot hit over 1/2 volume or so right now though due to neighbors and such. I will just assume it okay for now.

From what I've read you have a double bass setting which sends bass to the sub regardless of your speaker settings. Have you played with that setting? Also curious what your mains are as to what -3 db rating in the bass is, also what subs ratings are as well. you have a 40hz crossover setting on small setting it would take a big load off the receiver. The bass is the major load on your speakers and receiver so by so by starting the roll-off @ 40 hz or more you can play it louder with less distortion. Let your subs do the heavy lifting that's what they were designed to do. Remember our ears don't hear bass as well as the rest of the spectrum so it has to be much louder to sound equal, and this can require some power especially in a large room. It all depends on your ears, taste in music, volume, and how deep you wanta go.

From what I've read you have a double bass setting which sends bass to the sub regardless of your speaker settings. Have you played with that setting?

What this does is instead of sending LFE signal only or whatever the reciever thinks it should send to the sub, it also doubles up and sends what would normally go to the main L+R to the sub as well. It still doesn't send the bass to the mains, it just sends more to the subwoofer, which is annoying because I have a gain knob on the sub for that. It could be that I have magically been wiring it wrong, but I do not think so.

Also curious what your mains are as to what -3 db rating in the bass is, also what subs ratings are as well. you have a 40hz crossover setting on small setting it would take a big load off the receiver. The bass is the major load on your speakers and receiver so by so by starting the roll-off @ 40 hz or more you can play it louder with less distortion. Let your subs do the heavy lifting that's what they were designed to do. Remember our ears don't hear bass as well as the rest of the spectrum so it has to be much louder to sound equal, and this can require some power especially in a large room. It all depends on your ears, taste in music, volume, and how deep you wanta go.

I have not tested my mains for their frequency range, I suspect not any lower than 40hz, that being said I cannot really set those guys to 'small' as I am afraid it will fry the speakers that actually are indeed small elsewhere in the system. Right now the x-over is set to 120hz between small (all the other speakers varying 6.5" - 3.5" diameter) and large (mains). I might just try this suggestion at ~60-80hz though, I have to think about it. I wonder if there is an inline low cut I can apply to the mains at 50hz or so. If so, this should free up more power for the rest of the system. That being said, power wise I think I am doing fine, I like the sound of the main speakers. I am not trying to mute them. I have a 100w sub for next to the couch and a 1140 watt sub for room shaking and I still like the bass from the mains, it is a good sound and makes a nice transition from low to mid. =]

If you built a massive sub then it should handle everything below 80 or 60 Hz and just let your mains handle the rest. Your mains in no way should come close to the sub performance below 60Hz so crossover them over and not let them get there. Your AVR does not really handle low frequencies (none really do) very well either so again let the sub handle them.

The sound you may like is not a really great sound once you realize how boomy your 40 to 80 Hz is on a FR plot. Sometimes you have to set it up right and learn over time that it is actually better ;)


Or to be more blunt, you want to use your sub pre-out on your AVR, you want LFE, you want to set your mains to small and set to the crossover to whatever works the best. You want to setup your system properly.

I see no reason to use the high level inputs on a sub. It wastes power and causes mucho bass cancellation. High level inputs are for people who have stereo receivers that often times don't have subwoofer preouts. Even when I had just a stereo receiver years ago, my subwoofer was hooked up high level and I always had massive nulls in my bass response. I didn't even see the point way back then when I was brand new to this hobby because my bass response was better with the subwoofer off. Use the bass management, it is your friend.

As a side note, if you really want both the mains and subwoofer to do LFE, you don't have to go with a Marantz. Onkyo I think has a "double bass" mode and Yamaha has a "both" setting for LFE. Even though they have settings for this, I don't see the point. You just can't add bass from an external source and expect it to all sum up like simple math.

What this does is instead of sending LFE signal only or whatever the reciever thinks it should send to the sub, it also doubles up and sends what would normally go to the main L+R to the sub as well. It still doesn't send the bass to the mains, it just sends more to the subwoofer, which is annoying because I have a gain knob on the sub for that. It could be that I have magically been wiring it wrong, but I do not think so.No, that setting DOES send a full-range signal to your mains. Exactly what you are sending there with your current wiring scheme. And it sends redundant front channel bass to the sub, too. Properly configured, that setting will allow you to achieve something very close (if not identical) to what you achieve with your high-level connection.


But, there is nothing wrong with connecting things the way you describe in your initial post. The subs will not present any relevant impedance to your receiver's amps.

Folks:

Let the OP run his "party club space" the way he wants. He wants to run his mains full-range. So let him. Quit preaching.

Thanks for the input guys! I will go ahead and rewire the setup to run off LFE for a week and see how I like it. I had it wired this way before so the cabling is already there. =]

The difference is that now I have gone from just a 100 watt sub to 100 watt sub plus the 1kw+ sub. Maybe before the 100 watt sub was just not enough in comparison to the sound I would be getting from the two mains. I will experiment, especially because it is ultimately me listening to it, not you all. Hahh. =]

I have tried the double bass with subwoofer 'on' and mains set to 'large' I have noticed that the mains do not hit nearly as hard in this configuration (it IS pulling signal from the mains). There is a 1% possibility I am just remembering this wrong as I was wiring it up about 4 months ago. I will try this again to confirm.

Thanks again guys! I appreciate the input. Also a heads up though, I am NOT using surround sound mode at the moment as I do not have a DVD player... I am running in 'All Channel Set', basically stereo. I quite like it, but obviously when I do get a DVD player, this may very well change the way things sound. Just trying to explain what angle I am coming from. I do not think this will inherently change the want for the mains to run bass though, but I have been surprised before!

I have noticed that the mains do not hit nearly as hard in this configuration (it IS pulling signal from the mains).No, it isn't. How could it be "pulling signal from the mains"? The mains are simply being sent a full-range signal. Adjusting the relative level of the sub to the mains is something that YOU are responsible for. Be aware that even with the mains set to LARGE, the receiver's crossover setting still determines which frequencies are sent redundantly to the subwoofer with the double bass setting. So, you may want to experiment with the crossover setting you are applying.

And you now need to set the sub's own low-passes as high as they will go (or bypass them if possible).

Also, as pointed out in this thread, sending redundant bass info to the subwoofers can actually create a situation where the bass info is canceled instead of being reinforced.

No, it isn't. How could it be "pulling signal from the mains"? The mains are simply being sent a full-range signal. Adjusting the relative level of the sub to the mains is something that YOU adjust. Be aware that even with the mains set to LARGE, the receiver's crossover setting still determines which frequencies are sent redundantly to the subwoofer with the double bass setting. So, you may want to experiment with the crossover setting you are applying.

And you now need to set the sub's own low-passes as high as they will go (or bypass them if possible).

I believe whenever the LFE is turned on on this receiver it no longer sends a full range signal to the main speakers. Regardless of the double bass being on or not. I will confirm or disprove myself when I get a chance this week. =]

What you are saying definitely makes more sense though, I know I sound crazy. Just from experience when I tried it back when I came to the conclusion that it was pulling low signal from the main speakers, once again I must recheck.

I believe whenever the LFE is turned on on this receiver it no longer sends a full range signal to the main speakers.If the main speakers are set to LARGE, then they are sent a full-range signal. Not much else you can say regarding that, is there?

What do you mean "LFE is turned on"? And with music, there is no LFE, anyway.

main speakers set to LARGE = full-range signal sent to them
sub set to ON and double bass set to ON = main channel bass below the crossover setting is sent to the subwoofer, too

If the main speakers are set to LARGE, then they are sent a full-range signal. Not much else you can say regarding that, is there?

What I mean to say is that they do not receive a full range signal when the receiver is set to Subwoofer: ON and mains to Large. I will confirm this later, but this is what I remember. They only seemed to receive full range signal when subwoofer was set to OFF, regardless of Large setting.

What I mean to say is that they do not receive a full range signal when the receiver is set to Subwoofer: ON and mains to Large.Why wouldn't they? This is how your receiver operates. No "ifs, ands, or buts". LARGE is LARGE. How did you ascertain that they are not being sent a full-range signal, anyway?

A CD will not have an LFE track, so with music you will just be directing bass to the sub at the crossover level you select in the receiver. If as suggested, you use a low crossover such as 40Hz, you'll want to blend your sub using a simple sound level meter such as the Radio Shack one, and get a test CD for the frequency tests. This is what Penngray was trying to suggest in his post above, and where folks have been saying that your main speakers should be less stressed by the inclusion of the subs, especially that 1kw amped one!

One issue the OP is dealing with is an apparent size disparity between his front speakers and other speakers as he says he is using 120Hz for the rest of his speakers. Whether it really needs to be that high, I do not know. But, AFAIK, he only has the ability to apply a single global crossover setting with that receiver.

That said, it's possible that his receiver's bass management is bypassed altogether, anyway, when he uses an "ALL CHANNEL" setting.

Don't wanna preach but if you hit a half dozen garage sales this weekend, you can grab dvd players for 5 bucks. Can you adjust the center & rears independently from the mains ?

I realized this when looking at the total lack of woofer excursion when running the mains with the subwoofer in the 'ON' setting. With the subwoofer 'OFF' no other settings changed, the mains would once again show significant excursions. Double bass on or off, same result. This is off memory, I will check tonight or tomorrow. Additionally, you can obviously hear such a difference.

As far as adjusting centers and rears... All 7 channels have independently adjustable gain, but there is only one x-over pt. Small vs. Large. I do not see the point in sending 120hz or below signals to any of my 6" and below center, side, or surround back speakers. I think this would be the real waste of energy and may possibly damage said speakers.

Just got home... Confirmed. Double bass ON, Subwoofer ON, just listening to normal music excursion on the 12" mains goes from a visible 3-4mm or so, down to MAYBE .5mm of excusion. Bass (sound) naturally goes with it. I may still wire it up this way just for movies really. And yes, I should go buy a DVD player.

Just got home... Confirmed. Double bass ON, Subwoofer ON, just listening to normal music excursion on the 12" mains goes from a visible 3-4mm or so, down to MAYBE .5mm of excusion. Bass (sound) naturally goes with it.Did you set the speakers to LARGE?

Unplug or disconnect the subwoofer(s) and see what happens with the double bass setting ON and OFF. You'll hear that there is no difference. Either way, the speakers are still receiving the same exact full-range signal. Whether the volume will be identical as you switch back and forth, I do not know. Should be, though. If your receiver operates otherwise, you need to reset the processor.

Did you set the speakers to LARGE?

Unplug or disconnect the subwoofer(s) and see what happens with the double bass setting ON and OFF. You'll hear that there is no difference. Either way, the speakers are still receiving the same exact full-range signal. Whether the volume will be identical as you switch back and forth, I do not know. Should be, though. If your receiver operates otherwise, you need to reset the processor.

How does one reset the processor? I did not know I could do that... The bass is decreased with the subwoofer turned ON, always specified LARGE for fronts, etc. Regardless of double bass setting a lot of bass is cut out from the mains. I think this is just how the receiver is... I do not think they are receiving a full range signal when the subwoofer is turned on. I can visually see the difference anyway, let alone hear it.

Are we talking about the same setup that you have here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1119430)?

Are we talking about the same setup that you have here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1119430)?

Yessir.