What are some good sounding bipole and dipole surrounds? Budget is about $200 max for a pair, hopefully less. I'm not sure which type I want yet. Thanks.

What are some good sounding bipole and dipole surrounds? Budget is about $200 max for a pair, hopefully less. I'm not sure which type I want yet. Thanks.
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These (http://emotiva.com/erd1.shtm)are a bit over your price range but well worth it IMO.

I own a pair.

I set them up in the front LR to break them in, and with a sub they could do duty as mains in a pinch. They are that good.

Thanks, but I don't want to spend that much on surrounds.

Look at the Cambridge Soundworks S305. They currently have a blown out sale at their site. It's around $100. It has a switch that can goes from dipole, bipole, or direct (monopole).

Thanks, I'll check it out.

Look at the Cambridge Soundworks S305. They currently have a blown out sale at their site. It's around $100. It has a switch that can goes from dipole, bipole, or direct (monopole).
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They have only them in white, and I need black. The Speaker Co. has a dipolar for $169 a pair. And Energy has a bipolar for $158 a pair. Is that about it under $200? Thanks.

To resurrect this thread....can anyone else give any advice or suggestions. The Emotiva ERD-1 are nice, but they are 4 ohm. Can we please stay with 8ohm or 6ohm surround recommendations (in bi-bole, di-pole config).

To resurrect this thread....can anyone else give any advice or suggestions. The Emotiva ERD-1 are nice, but they are 4 ohm. Can we please stay with 8ohm or 6ohm surround recommendations (in bi-bole, di-pole config).

I'm just wondering...why did you resurrect an old thread? Usually the OP does that when they are still seeking advice.

I'm just wondering...why did you resurrect an old thread? Usually the OP does that when they are still seeking advice.

OK Knuckle Head...I should have said HI-JACK instead of resurrect:rolleyes:.

I did not want to create another new thread for a topic that has been brought up before (although I have been guilty of that many times:o). I feel that decreasing duplicate threads makes it easier for others to find useful threads when using the search feature.

OK Knuckle Head...I should have said HI-JACK instead of resurrect:rolleyes:.

I did not want to create another new thread for a topic that has been brought up before (although I have been guilty of that many times:o). I feel that decreasing duplicate threads makes it easier for others to find useful threads when using the search feature.

I'm probably not the only one thats at a loss as to what was/is useful in the old posts here.

To resurrect this thread....can anyone else give any advice or suggestions. The Emotiva ERD-1 are nice, but they are 4 ohm. Can we please stay with 8ohm or 6ohm surround recommendations (in bi-bole, di-pole config).

Ok KnuckleHead, you have de-railed this thread more than I have.

I quoted myself in hopes that someone can be kind enough to share any advice or provide product recommendations.

Ok KnuckleHead, you have de-railed this thread more than I have.

I quoted myself in hopes that someone can be kind enough to share any advice or provide product recommendations.
I picked up some Wharfdale WH-2 in maple off Amazon for under $100 not too long ago. Mostly for aesthetics but I've been very pleased with them thus far. I have an Infinity Primus LCR but didn't like the design on their smaller speakers for the rear of the room. They are a bit older, but I got them new in box and am pretty pleased.

Ok KnuckleHead, you have de-railed this thread more than I have.

I quoted myself in hopes that someone can be kind enough to share any advice or provide product recommendations.
Lets see if I can be of some help.

What is your budget? Same as the OP?

Lets see if I can be of some help.

What is your budget? Same as the OP?

Thank you sir!!:)

Yes, just like the OP I really don't want to go over $200.

First, here is a picture of the back of my TV room (with my old sofas).
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_X1BRj82fjEo/Sd06xxer88I/AAAAAAAACRY/Z2cMOMxssO4/s576/Den%20Audio%20Layout%20April%202009%20007.jpg

I know dipoles should be positioned so the user sits in the null, but I was tempted to place a dipole in the back corners of the room about 45-50" high....but more than likely one driver from each speaker would be directed to the main listening area.

Here is a pic with the new leather sectional:
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_X1BRj82fjEo/Sho3BPcnWEI/AAAAAAAACVI/M8P-xGQ1vhY/s512/Den%20Audio%20Layout%20MAY%202009%20002.jpg
I am sure the other speaker on a di-pole would be directed to people on the "L"....again, this is with the configuration of having a dipole speaker in the back corners.

I know I can't be overly picky with a budget, but I was hoping to have somewhat forward speakers that are effecient/sensitive. It seems that one of the best fits thus far are the Klipsch RS-42 (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&q=klipsch+surround&safe=active&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=12486264243544551666&ei=Iio-SufrFZC_twfnlYi1Bg&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=5#ps-sellers)....if I can find a good deal.

By the way, is it a fact that most dipole/bipole speakers wired out of phase in
"a dipole array", as opposed to some speakers that are wired in phase, in a bipolar design....which supposedly provides all the localization needed for soundtracks with directional surround effects.

http://www.aperionaudio.com/Products/Compare.aspx?type=product&list=704,267

http://www.aperionaudio.com/Products/Compare.aspx?type=product&list=704,267

Nice...if only they were $200/pair instead of $200 each.

yepper...what is a hundred or 2 for a good sounding speaker

Cambridge clearance outlet changes every once in a while and here is what they have now...http://www.cambridgesoundworks.com/store/category/clr_surround/53CW0010AA001-8/

http://www.aperionaudio.com/Products/Compare.aspx?type=product&list=704,267

I'm curious how they managed 90Hz extension (-3db) with the 4" driver in such a small cabinet, whereas the dual 5.25" driver dipole only reaches 100Hz (-3db).

Cambridge clearance outlet changes every once in a while and here is what they have now...http://www.cambridgesoundworks.com/store/category/clr_surround/53CW0010AA001-8/


"Open Box - Newton Series II S205 Surround Speakers - Black Pair
FREQUENCY RESPONSE ... 100Hz - 10kHz" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Ouch!!!

Yeah, I totally agree that you can't defy physics and expect a 4" driver to play below 100hz.

I agree that the discontinued Wharfedale WH-2 are nice...and may be worth it even though I think it has a 4" driver.

http://www.wildwestelectronics.net/wharfedale-wh-2-surround.html

Technical Details
Pair of bipolar satellite speakers for rendering clear and spacious surround effects in a multichannel listening system
Each speaker uses two 1.1-inch dome tweeters and two 4-inch Polypropylene cone woofers with hand-wound voice coils
Recommended for use with amplifiers delivering up to 120 watts per channel
4- to 8-ohm impedance, 88 dB sensitivity; 80 to 20,000 Hz frequency response
Measures 8.9 x 9.6 x 5 inches (W x H x D)

Yeah, I totally agree that you can't defy physics and expect a 4" driver to play below 100hz.

I agree that the discontinued Wharfedale WH-2 are nice...and may be worth it even though I think it has a 4" driver.

http://www.wildwestelectronics.net/wharfedale-wh-2-surround.html

Technical Details
Pair of bipolar satellite speakers for rendering clear and spacious surround effects in a multichannel listening system
Each speaker uses two 1.1-inch dome tweeters and two 4-inch Polypropylene cone woofers with hand-wound voice coils
Recommended for use with amplifiers delivering up to 120 watts per channel
4- to 8-ohm impedance, 88 dB sensitivity; 80 to 20,000 Hz frequency response
Measures 8.9 x 9.6 x 5 inches (W x H x D)
The WH-2's are even cheaper if you search on Amazon where I found mine. Apparently someone had them stockpiled. Given the limited amount of info going to surrounds, I wasn't too worried about the sensitivity and frequency response. They are pretty nice looking and felt solid to me. Of course the sub $100 price made everything more palatable.

Thanks hsd1770! When I checked Amazon, I had trouble finding anyone that still had them. I need to look harder.

What frequency are those surrounds crossed at?

Thanks hsd1770! When I checked Amazon, I had trouble finding anyone that still had them. I need to look harder.

What frequency are those surrounds crossed at?
I just looked...came up here
http://www.amazon.com/Wharfedale-WH-2BLK-Wide-Dispersion-Satellite-Speakers/dp/B00005UD27/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1245677792&sr=8-1

Under "Available from these sellers"...I'll have to go look (I'm still tweaking but I think I have mine crossed at 100)

The specs in the manual for the Aperion 4BP state a +/-3dB response of 100Hz-15kHz.

The 100Hz is certainly more believable, but that's unfortunate if the high end response begins to fall off around 15kHz.

I know a lot of affordable surrounds will have smaller drivers and thus can't play below 100hz. If the Wharefdales are rated at 100hz...they are probably best crossed at 120hz:(

TSC (the speaker company) has dipoles for $170. I have been considering them as I had the same problem with the Emotiva's being 4 ohm and the rest of my speakers being 8.

TSC (the speaker company) has dipoles for $170. I have been considering them as I had the same problem with the Emotiva's being 4 ohm and the rest of my speakers being 8.

http://www.thespeakercompany.com/Satellite-C9.aspx

Not seeing bipole/dipole options:confused:

By the way, is it a fact that most dipole/bipole speakers wired out of phase in
"a dipole array", as opposed to some speakers that are wired in phase, in a bipolar design....which supposedly provides all the localization needed for soundtracks with directional surround effects.

ALL dipole speakers fire out of phase. ALL bipole speakers fire in phase. That's what makes a dipole a dipole and a bipole a bipole. Deepstang, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the rest of your speakers Klipsch, or do I have you confused with someone else? What models are they exactly?

ALL dipole speakers fire out of phase. ALL bipole speakers fire in phase. That's what makes a dipole a dipole and a bipole a bipole. Deepstang, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the rest of your speakers Klipsch, or do I have you confused with someone else? What models are they exactly?

I was initially looking at Klipsch...and have chatted with a few times on the Official Klipsch forum; however, i got a great deal on a set of X-series speakers from AV123....the X-SLS towers with matching X-CS center

I was initially looking at Klipsch...and have chatted with a few times on the Official Klipsch forum; however, i got a great deal on a set of X-series speakers from AV123....the X-SLS towers with matching X-CS center

Then why not stick with them for matching surrounds? Is it just a budget issue? Or are you maybe nervous about doing business with AV123 right now? I learned by accident that you're cheating yourself if you go with cheap surrounds and a big front stage. IMO your surrounds should match and be able to keep up with the rest of your system, within reason of course. With some of the blu-rays out there that make HEAVY use of the surround channels, you'll be missing out if you don't get surrounds that are on the same level as your other speakers.

Thanks fireman...that is good advice. AV123 does not make dipole/bipole speakers to match. Budget is definitely a factor; however, I will aim for an 8 ohm product with atleast a 5-1/2" driver.

out of curiosity, have you considered any in-wall options since you already have the holes cut out? I'm not familiar with many in-wall surround options but it might make the installation cleaner.

another option (I know you already tried Energy but....) is the C-R100, which fits the budget at $100 each from Audio Advisor:
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ENCR100

I know a lot of affordable surrounds will have smaller drivers and thus can't play below 100hz. If the Wharefdales are rated at 100hz...they are probably best crossed at 120hz:(
The WH-2's are rated at 80. I inadvertantly answered about where I had them crossed in my receiver.

Thanks fireman...that is good advice. AV123 does not make dipole/bipole speakers to match. Budget is definitely a factor; however, I will aim for an 8 ohm product with atleast a 5-1/2" driver.

Have you considered with regular bookshelf monopoles? Mounted up in the corners at a 45° into the room?

The specs in the manual for the Aperion 4BP state a +/-3dB response of 100Hz-15kHz.

The 100Hz is certainly more believable, but that's unfortunate if the high end response begins to fall off around 15kHz.
Thats a pretty anemic range, especially in the upper range where surrounds should be able to operate at or close to 20,000hz. The lower frequencies - below 100hz - isn't much concern. They probably roll off soft at 100hz.

I know this is slightly above the specified range, but I have Phase Technology V-Surround switchable bipole/dipole speakers and have been pretty happy with them. There are some on Amazon.com marketplace for a pretty low price:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000ELW2BK/

Have you considered with regular bookshelf monopoles? Mounted up in the corners at a 45° into the room?

I have asked this question in the past, but have not heard feedback from anyone. I actually have a pair of Energy LCRs (http://www.energy-speakers.com/na-en/products/take-lcr-overview/), but don't know if they will put out enough sound....so that is why I was going to try and sell them and get a bipole/dipole set. I was totally going with the monopole @ 45 degrees in the corners, but most on AVS keep preaching about the benifits of the bipole/dipole in surround applications.

out of curiosity, have you considered any in-wall options since you already have the holes cut out? I'm not familiar with many in-wall surround options but it might make the installation cleaner.

another option (I know you already tried Energy but....) is the C-R100, which fits the budget at $100 each from Audio Advisor:
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ENCR100

I actually have been using in-walls as my rear surrounds, but again, most people on AVS talk about how the rears should be to the side and angled in. I have decided to use the rear in-walls as my BACK Surrounds in a 7.1 setup.
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_X1BRj82fjEo/SEi4_Dzy1TI/AAAAAAAAACs/RD7szC5j4Ww/s512/10.27.07%20004.jpg

I am actually wondering if a speaker like the C-R100 may be my best option and will obtain the best of both worlds.....have a single driver that I can have angled 45 degrees into the room, AND having 2 tweeters that can be more directional (as they probably should) towards the seating area.

Thats a pretty anemic range, especially in the upper range where surrounds should be able to operate at or close to 20,000hz. The lower frequencies - below 100hz - isn't much concern. They probably roll off soft at 100hz.

So I posted my question over at Aperion's forums, and Aperion's explanation is that the high end "roll-off" is in fact due to the method of measuring. They measured the woofer on-axis, which puts both tweeters off-axis at a significant angle. If they measured one tweeter on axis, they said it would hit 20kHz, but the woofer would be off axis and the 2nd tweeter would be way off.

Basically, this is a case where the specs don't tell the entire story.

So I posted my question over at Aperion's forums, and Aperion's explanation is that the high end "roll-off" is in fact due to the method of measuring. They measured the woofer on-axis, which puts both tweeters off-axis at a significant angle. If they measured one tweeter on axis, they said it would hit 20kHz, but the woofer would be off axis and the 2nd tweeter would be way off.

Basically, this is a case where the specs don't tell the entire story.

Thanks alphaiii, I guess that is all the more reason to have a design similar to the Intiumus 4BP, or the C-R 100 (Energy)...to have the tweeters aimed closer to the listener...and the driver can be off-axis for a bit more "diffuse sound".

Thanks alphaiii, I guess that is all the more reason to have a design similar to the Intiumus 4BP, or the C-R 100 (Energy)...to have the tweeters aimed closer to the listener...and the driver can be off-axis for a bit more "diffuse sound".

Well, depending on placement, the tweeters may actually be aimed away. If bipoles are used on the side walls, the mid is directed toward the listening position, while the highs are angled in front and behind - so you'll hear alot of reflected sound. The idea is, as you said, to create a diffuse sound field.

Bipoles are supposed to work pretty well on the rear wall as well (whereas dipoles do not). My only wonder is how that is, when the mid then fires directly toward the front wall....so wouldn't you then be getting reflected sound coming from in front of you?

Well, depending on placement, the tweeters may actually be aimed away. If bipoles are used on the side walls, the mid is directed toward the listening position, while the highs are angled in front and behind - so you'll hear alot of reflected sound. The idea is, as you said, to create a diffuse sound field.

Bipoles are supposed to work pretty well on the rear wall as well (whereas dipoles do not). My only wonder is how that is, when the mid then fires directly toward the front wall....so wouldn't you then be getting reflected sound coming from in front of you?

I was thinking of placing them at a 45 degree angle from the corners of the back wall. That would then have the tweeters pointed towards the listener and the driver towards the center of the room.

Well, depending on placement, the tweeters may actually be aimed away. If bipoles are used on the side walls, the mid is directed toward the listening position, while the highs are angled in front and behind - so you'll hear alot of reflected sound. The idea is, as you said, to create a diffuse sound field.

Bipoles are supposed to work pretty well on the rear wall as well (whereas dipoles do not). My only wonder is how that is, when the mid then fires directly toward the front wall....so wouldn't you then be getting reflected sound coming from in front of you?

I was thinking of placing them at a 45 degree angle from the corners of the back wall. That would then have the tweeters pointed towards the listener and the driver towards the center of the room.

There still seems to be a little confusion on the whole dipole/bipole thing. I recommend you guys read this thread (http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=66471). It's a bit lengthy and technical, but thorough.

There still seems to be a little confusion on the whole dipole/bipole thing. I recommend you guys read this thread (http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=66471). It's a bit lengthy and technical, but thorough.

DOH!!!...I am not smart enough to understand the differences between dipoles and monopoles. The concepts make sense, but which one to use where is a WHOLE different story!!

So...if I am looking for a surround speaker to be mounted on the back wall (not at 45 degrees in the corner), is it better to do a bipole or dipole. It seems that bipoles may provide a little more of the directionality that is intended when all newer movies are made; however, it will have a smaller sweet spot...but won't have the null that dipoles would have along with the slightly reduced bass reproduction

Bipoles disperse sound pretty evenly over 180 degrees (assuming your bipole looks something likethis (http://www.onecall.com/ImageCache/Klipsch_Klipsch-RS-42-Black-Ea_300x250_s.jpg)). As such it creates a wider sweet spot and can therefore be placed on the back wall or a side wall. The nature of its design and wide, even dispersion pattern allow you greater flexibility in placement.

Dipoles, on the other hand, produce the same sounds from both sides of the speaker, but since the 2 sides are out of phase with each other, the sound reflections serve to somewhat cancel each other out, and to get the proper effect you're only meant to sit in the "null" area directly in front of the speaker. The idea here is that this provides ambient sounds, but makes it very difficult to pinpoint the speaker's location just by listening to it. However, due to this design, the dipole speaker has a very narrow sweet spot, and proper positioning of the dipole speaker is much more critical. If the speaker is shaped the same as the one linked to above, (which most are very similar to that general shape), then the dipole speaker, should always go only on the side wall. If you put them on the back wall, you could only ever be in the "null" of one or the other, but not both at the same time. If you put them on the back wall and sit between them you will just get the direct sound from one side of each speaker. In this case you may as well have a monopole or bipole.



And I did not intend to imply you were not smart enough to understand the difference between the different types of speakers. If my previous post came across as offensive, then please accept my apologies. That was not my intention.

And I did not intend to imply you were not smart enough to understand the difference between the different types of speakers. If my previous post came across as offensive, then please accept my apologies. That was not my intention.

My God fireman325, you are an absolute hero and gem on AVS! I was just being silly with my comment.

I want to sincerly THANK YOU for your efforts to help and educate others here.

My God fireman325, you are an absolute hero and gem on AVS! I was just being silly with my comment.

I want to sincerly THANK YOU for your efforts to help and educate others here.

It's not a problem at all. I'm happy to help. :)