does this mean angleing your speakers,:confused: or what?

It means turning the speakers inward in relation to the listening position as shown here. http://www.audioholics.com/education/acoustics-principles/better-sound-through-active-room-correction-a-primer-to-audyssey-multeq-pro/clip_image003_040.jpg
Without toeing the speakers in, the majority of the direct sound from the speakers would be firing at the wall, not your ears. So you wanna point the sound in the general direction of your ears by toeing them in.

It's what you do before entering a swimming pool to check the water temperature. http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-7/36400/smilielol5.gif

Actually, the explanation in the post above is good. For more than one money seat, speakers should be less toed in to open up the sweet spot a bit.

When she wants something else....

It's part of the hokey-pokey

Its for car alignment. We AV guys are also motor head.

As stated it simply means turning speakers inward toward the listening position. The are no rules, as differnt speakers will sound different in different rooms with more or less toe in. It affects spaciousness of the soundstage, imaging, high and low frequency balance among other things. You can tame bright speakers by facing them forward and "brighten up" warmer speakers by toeing them in. Really the only rule to toe-in is that it should be the same for both speakers. Mr. Audio seems to suggest that all speakers should be toed in, not sure if he meant to or not but this is incorrect just a simple example if Totem speakers (and others) are speccifically designed NOT to be toed in.

When she wants something else....

I am dying over here... :D

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-7/36400/leaving.gif

It's part of the hokey-pokey

Yup, that's what it's all about...

20 dollars, same as in town.

As stated it simply means turning speakers inward toward the listening position. The are no rules, as differnt speakers will sound different in different rooms with more or less toe in. It affects spaciousness of the soundstage, imaging, high and low frequency balance among other things. You can tame bright speakers by facing them forward and "brighten up" warmer speakers by toeing them in. Really the only rule to toe-in is that it should be the same for both speakers. Mr. Audio seems to suggest that all speakers should be toed in, not sure if he meant to or not but this is incorrect just a simple example if Totem speakers (and others) are speccifically designed NOT to be toed in.

Very good points. Some speakers throughout history (a/d/s, some M&K, etc.) were hot on axis by as much as 3 dB so they could be listened to pointing straight ahead. And some speakers have better horizontal dispersion than others (for a variety of reasons) and toe-in isn't as critical. I prefer the selfish one-person toe-in for my listening, though, and certainly for evaluating. Our stuff is designed to be flat on-axis.

Its for car alignment. We AV guys are also motor head.

Gimme a few more degrees of negative camber...

Some Companies like Gedlee and JBL design their speakers (this is only true of the Everest and K2 series for JBL) specifically to be toed in. The reason for this is that the speakers have the smoothest response as the power response, not the axial response, and so if you toe them in quite liberally you not only are on axis for the smoothest response, but you also avoid wall reflections (These are both CD designs). I consider this a very good thing, hence why I have the Gedlee Summa speakers, but most speakers are not designed this way. While you can toe in any speaker and reduce the wall reflections some, most don't have as smooth a power response, and are not controlled directivity.

I am dying over here... :D

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-7/36400/leaving.gif

lol, couldn't help it...

It's what you do before entering a swimming pool to check the water temperature. http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-7/36400/smilielol5.gif

Actually, the explanation in the post above is good. For more than one money seat, speakers should be less toed in to open up the sweet spot a bit.

There are trade-offs here between early reflections off the nearest wall and the direct sound.

With enough directivity, you can also toe the speakers in so they're pointing at a spot in front of the centered listener so they're hearing less direct sound from the nearer speaker so the time and level compensate to produce correct imaging accross a wider sweet spot.

For example. with Linkwitz Orions (cosine alpha polar response up to ~700Hz becoming somewhat cardioid shaped up through 1.4KHz) I can get a centered image across a love seat without appreciable image shift from side walls 2' from one speaker and 15'+ from the other.

Mr. Audio seems to suggest that all speakers should be toed in, not sure if he meant to or not but this is incorrect

Mr. Audio was just trying to keep it simple. How far you sit from the speakers, room acoustics, and speaker characteristics effect how much the speakers are toed in. The OPs question was not how much should I toe in my speakers. His question was what is toe-in. I answered his question.

Mr. Audio was just trying to keep it simple. How far you sit from the speakers, room acoustics, and speaker characteristics effect how much the speakers are toed in. The OPs question was not how much should I toe in my speakers. His question was what is toe-in. I answered his question.

I understand the idea of KISS, however you did not stop by just answering the question which certainly is not an issue on a forum.

You stated; "So you wanna point the sound in the general direction of your ears by toeing them in." This clearly is a suggestion that you should should toe-in speakers. I tried to give you some wiggle room by opining it may not have been meant to be a blanket statement. Bottom line the above statement is only correct with some speakers and in some environments you didn't make that distiction and I made sure that it wouldn't be misunderstood. Had you simply answered the question by defining toe-in we wouldn't be discussing this.

The purpose of toeing in a speaker is not only used to get the best frequency response. Totem speakers can be toed in. Because of their good off axis response, it is most of the time not needed, but that does not mean that they can't be toed in. There are other reasons for toeing speakers in such as room acoustics. Most conventional speakers sound better toed in. I didn't include any exceptions because most speakers are conventional. Not even Dolby labs includes exceptions for speakers like Mirage which supposedly have "360" dispersion in their recommended speaker setup. I said general direction. I didn't say what angle. You should write to Dolby labs and tell them to revise their sample pictures for Totem speakers. Tell me the response you get from them.

The purpose of toeing in a speaker is not only used to get the best frequency response. Totem speakers can be toed in. Because of their good off axis response, it is most of the time not needed, but that does not mean that they can't be toed in. There are other reasons for toeing speakers in such as room acoustics. Most conventional speakers sound better toed in. I didn't include any exceptions because most speakers are conventional. Not even Dolby labs includes exceptions for speakers like Mirage which supposedly have "360" dispersion in their recommended speaker setup. I said general direction. I didn't say what angle. You should write to Dolby labs and tell them to revise their sample pictures for Totem speakers. Tell me the response you get from them.

I used Totem as an example, there are many speakers that do not require toe-in, Totem is not an anomoly. Plus, as I pointed out toe-in varies with room acoustics. If during the placement of speakers one never considers a placement with no toe-in, one valuable tool from the toolbox has just been removed. In the end toe-in is personal preference and to proclaim that most conventional speakers sound best toed in is equal to telling someone which speaker is the best.


Bottom line your statement was potentially misleading, I pointed it out, you said you didn't say that, now you come back and defend what you said you didn't say...

I used Totem as an example, there are many speakers that do not require toe-in, Totem is not an anomoly. Plus, as I pointed out toe-in varies with room acoustics. If during the placement of speakers one never considers a placement with no toe-in, one valuable tool from the toolbox has just been removed. In the end toe-in is personal preference and to proclaim that most conventional speakers sound best toed in is equal to telling someone which speaker is the best.


Bottom line your statement was potentially misleading, I pointed it out, you said you didn't say that, now you come back and defend what you said you didn't say...

Chill- i'm the OP i thought thats what toe-in met, but wanted to double check w/ you guys first...:)

Its for car alignment. We AV guys are also motor head.

Improper toe spec will cause uneven tire wear. Get them tie-rods checked!:D

Edit: Now I remember what I was going to say. I have Klipsch F'2 and for about a month I had them aimed straight forward. After that, I toe them in and was a big difference. Sound was fuller/warm and clear. Before the toe, it sounded empty and distance.

Have you called Dolby yet? Dolby is misleading millions with their incorrect pictures.
In the end toe-in is personal preference and to proclaim that most conventional speakers sound best toed in is equal to telling someone which speaker is the best.Ok man, you're really reachin' now. Chill like the OP said.

It's what you do before entering a swimming pool to check the water temperature. http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-7/36400/smilielol5.gif

Actually, the explanation in the post above is good. For more than one money seat, speakers should be less toed in to open up the sweet spot a bit.

I actually find the opposite. More severe toe-in can help with off-axis listening because you'll maintain better volume balance (and thus soundstage) between the speakers whereas if they're not toed in heavily the imaging will just collapse to the nearest speaker and it ends up basically sounding like mono, except when there's a hard pan to the far speaker in which case things just 'jump' way over there.

. . . With enough directivity, you can also toe the speakers in so they're pointing at a spot in front of the centered listener so they're hearing less direct sound from the nearer speaker so the time and level compensate to produce correct imaging accross a wider sweet spot. . . .

This same concept is used in automobile sound systems where the tweeters are placed at the front corners of the front door windows where the outside rearview windows are attached. Or, mounted on the front "A" pillars.

The idea is that the right tweeter is pointed toward the right ear of the "left" person (the driver) and the left tweeter is pointed toward the left ear of the "right" person (the passenger).

The driver's left ear is off axis to the left tweeter, but is much closer to it. The driver's right ear is on axis to the right tweeter, but much further away. If done correctly, it can provide a pretty convincing center image, as if the driver or passenger were both sitting in the center sweet spot.

Robert

What ChrisWiggles and Trek7300 just posted is very good observation regarding toe-in. I have experimented all across the board and this is right on the money. Toeing-in speakers doesn't just provide a good image for the center listening-spot, but all across the listening area (within reason). Even if you're seated a little off-axis your ears will still be able to recognize the imaging to the left or to the right. If speakers aren't placed correctly you'll have slightly muddy imaging no matter where you sit. So, at least for the speakers I have used, toe-in gets the tightest imaging possible for the entire listening area. Different speakers/rooms might produce different results, but for the most part I've been advise to toe-in, and it has given me the best results for imaging across the listening area. Even well off axis in some cases your ears can still sense the existence of tight imaging due not only to your good placement but good calibration. Audyssey Multi-EQ has definitely improved this for me a bit, but raw placement/calibration is most important.

My question has always been: what do movie theaters do? Theaters are designed for a larger listening area and their speakers are typically pointed straight ahead, or sometimes slightly toed-in depending on the curvature of the screen area. Either movie theaters don't have the same imaging as home theater, or their speakers are arrayed in such a way that the speakers disperse sound in all directions to maintain a tight image no matter where you're seated.

The dogma is that toe-in improves imaging but collapses the soundstage. A happy medium is there, somewhere.

I'd post a pic but I know someone wouldn't like it.

I'd post a pic but I know someone wouldn't like it.

Post it Chu, post it!!:D

Don't know if this thread is dead or not but would appreicate some input. Given the agreement the amount of Toe-in seems to be trial and error based, where do you start and how do you proceed. My setup is a bit more complex in that I have have a narrow dedicated room with 2 rows of sofas (seating 3 each) and an elevated second row. Was going to start with some laser sighting on the speakers (FL/R) to paint a crossover point and then move that point forward (towards the speakers and in front of the seating and then backwards. 1) does that make sense. 2) What type of material would you listen to during this process 3) how would you integrate the set-up of the center channel in this process.

1. Yes. I 'think' you'll find that crossing over in front of the seating position is more forgiving.
2. Why, The Hokey Pokey of course or maybe some pron with a good soundtrack.
3. Fronts first then go through the usual calibration process.