View Full Version : Onkyo DV-SP506 to overcome DSD 44.1 kHz limited by HDMI 1.2


bobpaule
02-15-09, 11:49 AM
UPDATE: After more careful reading this player is also HDMI 1.2a. This, along with the input from the posters
here convinced me that there would be no added benefits over the Oppo. I apologize for spreading misinformation,
my bad!

http://www.cinedream.be/products/onkyo_dvsp506_big.jpg

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From the Oppo 980 thread:

"I have set my DV-980H to SACD DSD and my receiver shows playback 44.1Khz audio. What gives?

This is not an error. According to the HDMI 1.2a specifications, the indicated sample frequency on the receiver will be 44.1kHz. As pulled from the documentation:

"For One Bit Audio streams, the value indicated by the SF bits shall equal the ACR fS value. For Super Audio CD, the SF bits are typically set to 0, 1, 0, to indicate a Sample Frequency of 2.8224MSamples/s (i.e. 64*44.1kHz)."

This is due to 8-channels of audio being available through HDMI at 8 bits per channel at 44.1KHz. The end bandwidth is 2.8224Mbits/second, which equates to 2.8224M 1-bit audio."
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Indeed my HDMI 1.3a Onkyo processor shows 44.1 kHz, so here is a bottleneck, as the DSD spec clearly shows frequencies from 2-100 kHz.

Never knew until today that while the Oppo sounded great, it downgraded the freq. to 41 because of the HDMI 1.2 standard. You live, you learn, they say :)

I have the Onkyo on the way, will post about findings and real life versus perceived gains from the potential removal of the 44.1 kHz bottleneck. BTW The manual lists ,n50 KHz as the upper limit for SACD frequency, but i suspect it applies when the player does the decoding only. I will let you know.

http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=DV-SP506&class=DVD&p=i

If it will not playback up to 100 kHz, then the only choice may be the $1000 Sony, read specs here, says "SACD Playing Frequency 2-100 KHz, Frequency response 2-50KHz":

http://pdf.crse.com/manuals/4000691111.pdf

rdgrimes
02-15-09, 03:15 PM
All my Oppo players send converted DSD at 88KHz, not 44. This is to an HDMI 1.2 AVR. At least that's what the AVR says it's receiving.

Edit to clarify: When sending bitstream DSD, there is no "downconversion" in the player, it's a raw DSD stream. When you convert in the player, then you'll get a 88KHz LPCM stream from the Oppo players. Your AVR may be showing a sample rate, but this is erroneous with DSD. DSD has no sample rate as we know it. I'll wager that your Onkyo will show a 44 rate from the Onkyo player too.

FWIW, HDMI 1.2 can support up to 192Kz sample rates with 5.1 LPCM.

EricM407
02-15-09, 04:45 PM
Indeed my HDMI 1.3a Onkyo processor shows 44.1 kHz, so here is a bottleneck, as the DSD spec clearly shows frequencies from 2-100 kHz.

There's no bottleneck. The Oppo wasn't downgrading anything if it was sending DSD. You can think of it as a limitation on what the receiver display will show when you receive DSD.

Also, you seem to be confusing audio frequencies with sampling rates in your research.

bobpaule
02-15-09, 06:08 PM
Thanks guys. Now it is making more sense, yet can one of you explain that line from the Sony ES manual listed above where they talk about:

"Playing Frequency 2 Hz - 100 kHz"

William
02-15-09, 07:28 PM
Thanks guys. Now it is making more sense, yet can one of you explain that line from the Sony ES manual listed above where they talk about:

"Playing Frequency 2 Hz - 100 kHz"

Actually the SA-CD (DSD) sampling frequency is 2.8224mHz, This is 44.1x64. So what your Onkyo is showing is the divided sampling rate of the DSD stream. DSD is only 1 bit and can't be down sampled to a 44.1kHz rate or it would only have a 6dB dynamic range.

EDIT: DSD uses all the higher frequencies (above about 22kHz) to pack the noise into (noise shaping) to artificially increase the dynamic range to about 120dB for the usable (up to 20kHz) frequencies into a 6dB band.

bobpaule
02-15-09, 10:51 PM
My bad, spreading misinformation. This player is also HDMI 1.2a.

This and the info above convince me that i will not gain anything over
the Oppo.

Keeping the Oppo then.