im looking to bi-wire my polk lsi15's and lsic. Im looking to spend 200bucks tops for the three cables, i would love to hear anyones recomendations. Cables that available to purchase online are prefered.
Thanks in advance

I'll spend the $200 somewhere else unless you have a real crappy wire right now.

im using really cheep monoprice 12g wire, this is actually my final upgrade so i think the 200 is appropriate

Do yourself a favor. Spend $5 on AWG 12 wire similar to what you have now. Biwire your speakers and see if you can hear any sound improvement. If you can honestly say that it sounded much better, then buy the expensive wire.

i think the 200 is appropriate

Why? I can't see how that would be at all appropriate.

For $200, if you don't have it already, how about some RPG or similar diffusers or other acoustic treatments?

The largest amount of distortion comes from:
1. room acoustics (can easily cause +6/-30 dB distortion) and
2. speakers (most rated at +/-3dB across the frequency domain),
not the cables, where most are rated at better than +/- 0.05 dB.

I use Canare 4S11 StarQuad Cables from Blue Jean Cable Company and I couldn't be happier!

search bi-wire....there are so many damn threads on it. Educate yourself on the fact that it DOES NOT DO ANYTHING!!!!

You are wasting your money, go ahead and waste it but do not post on a science forum about it ;)

this is actually my final upgrade so i think the 200 is appropriate

$200 on cables for Polk speakers and you think you are ugrading anything??.....yikes :eek:

Hey guys, be nice.

He is here to ask a sincere question. If he knew, he wouldn't have asked.

This forum is a resource, a place to ask questions and a place to share ideas.

cembros, thumbs up for using monoprice. They are right near my house. Great company.

You might try your question over at Polk's Forums:

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/

You might try your question over at Polk's Forums:

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/

Lousy advice over there. They all seem to believe in "magic".

Lousy advice over there. They all seem to believe in "magic".

Well I don't see you offering anything of any value to the OP here.

$200 on cables for Polk speakers and you think you are ugrading anything??.....yikes :eek:

wow thanks for nothing

look im just looking to upgrade my speaker wire, the wire im using now is sub standard and causes alot of distortion, my speakers have the ability to be bi-wired and i want to take advantage of that. From what iv looked at there is no difference in price between biwired cable and no bi wired so i figured why not.

look im just looking to upgrade my speaker wire, the wire im using now is sub standard and causes alot of distortion, my speakers have the ability to be bi-wired and i want to take advantage of that. From what iv looked at there is no difference in price between biwired cable and no bi wired so i figured why not.

Wires are not likely to cause distortion (unless you have a very long run of 100' or more of 24 gage wire) . It sound like you may have other problems.

Wires are not likely to cause distortion (unless you have a very long run of 100' or more of 24 gage wire) . It sound like you may have other problems.

Agree with William. If you would still like to upgrade the cable, I would recommend Blue Jeans (http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/index.htm).

look im just looking to upgrade my speaker wire, the wire im using now is sub standard and causes alot of distortion, my speakers have the ability to be bi-wired and i want to take advantage of that. From what iv looked at there is no difference in price between biwired cable and no bi wired so i figured why not.

While some of the responses have been a bit sharp, you are getting the best advice when told not to bother with bi-wiring, not to bother pgrading your wires, and spend the $200 on something more useful. Room treatments as suggested above would be a great way to improve the sound that yields real results. It is highly unlikely that your wire is causing distortion.

Wow, some of you people are just so full of yourselves and flat out rude! :rolleyes:


Spend your money on what "YOU" want cembros, don't let these people tell you that you're wasting money on wires or put you down because of your speakers (nothing wrong with Polk). It's your money, and your ears, and that's all that matters.metal is correct, you have the right to spend your money as you see fit.

If you insist on bi-wiring, despite there being no scientific evidence to support any claims that it improves the sound, I suggest Lowe's or Home Depot and buy another set of 12 gauge wire.

Then If you really want to feel good about spending $200, I'm sure there are many people who could suggest a good worthwhile charity for the remaining $180 or so.

I agree with Medal. The OP came here for help. Why such a tuff crowd?

Cembros
I have Monitor Audio Pl300s they are also set up so that I can bi-wire the speakers. So thats what I did. With wire that cost about $400 for a pair of 15 ft lenghts. I took them off and replaced them with a 12g wire i picked up at the local electronics shop. I didnt bi-wire this time. I didnt hear any difference. Neither did anyone else. The single best upgrade I made that I really noticed was throwing a rug down over the hard wood floor. Sometimes you have to try things for yourself to let go of the "what if" factor. Of course when "you" do it its called waste of money when the "experts" do its called an upgrade.

Its a trial and error... whoops...I mean trial and upgrade....hobby so enjoy.

I agree with Medal. The OP came here for help. Why such a tuff crowd?


Its a trial and error... whoops...I mean trial and upgrade....hobby so enjoy.

Yes. And a 'Hobby' is what it is. And one of the fun things about hobbies is trying new things. So by all means, try new things and then judge for yourself. As far as costs go, ALL hobbies are expensive. And once you have all of your basics in place, it's fun to try many of the tweaks and more esoteric stuff in an effort to get 'just a little more' out of your system.

Wow, some of you people are just so full of yourselves and flat out rude! :rolleyes:


Spend your money on what "YOU" want cembros, don't let these people tell you that you're wasting money on wires or put you down because of your speakers (nothing wrong with Polk). It's your money, and your ears, and that's all that matters.

and some people are downright ignorant about science. He post on a AV science forum for help. He should realize that bi-wire is a complete myth, ZERO change in anything audio.

I do not think its wise to support any sort of myths on here besides there are so many other things the guy could with the $200 to get his so called last upgrade. Its silly to think about this actually :D

its definitely a hobby but go enjoy the hobby and do not post on a science forum supporting urban audio legend BS!!

look im just looking to upgrade my speaker wire, the wire im using now is sub standard and causes alot of distortion, my speakers have the ability to be bi-wired and i want to take advantage of that. From what iv looked at there is no difference in price between biwired cable and no bi wired so i figured why not.

Look, there is no such thing as UPGRADING speaker wire...that is what we are saying. You need to understand this, your future in this hobby will be better enjoyed if you learn about certain basic sciences behind audio. Once you understand this, you can spend your money on things that ACTUALLY matter.

You may think we are just insulting you but be are actually trying to improve your system PROPERLY!!! So the people actually helping you are the ones you think are insulting you, the others supporting your silly idea are the ones that offer NO true help here! They probably support drug user or alcoholic habits too by just saying....let the guy waste money on anything he wants. ;)

don't let these people tell you that you're wasting money on wires or put you down because of your speakers (nothing wrong with Polk).

You missed the meaning, I said is silly to spend that LARGE of a percentage on speaker wires if your speakers didnt cost that much to begin with, You can insert ANY name brand actually.

Polks are fine but its HORRIBLE advice for anyone to agree with the OP spending $200 on wire for $700 speakers....its just wrong and you guys are not really helping him!!

I assume he's an adult, in which case he has the right to spend his money on whatever he likes, there is nothing wrong about that. What's wrong to you, doesn't have to be for everyone, i'm pretty sure you are not the last word in audio.

I do not care what he spends his money, I care about audio science and I care when someone posts about bi-wiring BS....Again, spend $$$ on anything you want, I waste thousands and thousand per year on lots of things but Im not posting in forums asking questions about how to spend that money!

If there is a bi-wiring question, WE will post its down right stupid to think it even matters...It will always be this way and if you do not like it find a non-science audio forum to hang out in ;)


When it comes down to it i couldn't care less what others think, especially on the internet of all places.

We are here to help, if you do not want to help, no problem but do not reinforce audio snake oil. Its simply a diservice to anyone trying to learn this stuff.

Wow...lol So judgemental

Im tired of all the audio ignorance passed off as opinion ;)


There is no proper way to improve someones system, it's all a matter of personal opinion and taste.

There are scientifically proven appoarches to improving a system to say its all opinion and taste just shows your ignorance about audio. Lucky for us you won't be posting again to waste everyone's time.

When you choose to help people then maybe its worth your while to post. ;)

As long as you are having fun with your snake-oil choices that is all that matters ;)

We will always correct those who are wrong, you can post what you want but you know already what people will say ;)

I would expect the same if Im wrong too but I have science on my side and I know that my audio money isnt wasted on silly snake-oil things...I wasted on other things instead :D

look im just looking to upgrade my speaker wire, the wire im using now is sub standard and causes alot of distortion,Doubtful.

my speakers have the ability to be bi-wired and i want to take advantage of that. From what iv looked at there is no difference in price between biwired cable and no bi wired so i figured why not.OK.

agree to disagree that bi-wire has been proven as just a "snake oil" audio solution scientifically?

agree to disagree that we should make sure bad advice is not followed?

both?

I bi-wired my Polk RTi8's using Canare 4s11 from BlueJeans and heard no improvement, but also heard no harm and I liked the look of the cables after I covered them with TechFlex.

Then I looked at a bi-wiring diagram and saw that, in effect, all I had accomplished was moving the jumper from the speaker binding posts to the amplifiers binding posts.

wow thanks for nothing

????

We just saved you about $200.

Seriously.

Do you pride yourself as to how much blood you can make flow from the hands that help you?

I bi-wired my Polk RTi8's using Canare 4s11 from BlueJeans and heard no improvement, but also heard no harm and I liked the look of the cables after I covered them with TechFlex.

Then I looked at a bi-wiring diagram and saw that, in effect, all I had accomplished was moving the jumper from the speaker binding posts to the amplifiers binding posts.

Thanks for mentioning TechFlex. I have been searching all over the place for the right name of that flexible sleeve for days now. I need some to wrap my Home Depot wires to make it look good.

????

We just saved you about $200.

Seriously.



The OP didn't ask how to save $200.00. He asked for speaker wire/cable recommendations to Bi-Wire his speakers.

The OP didn't ask how to save $200.00. He asked for speaker wire/cable recommendations to Bi-Wire his speakers.Thank you! :)

Everyone seems to be getting a little off on how the thread has gone. The OP says he hears distortion and thought that my be his speaker wire. Now whether or not you support bi-wiring I'm sure we can all agree that if the OP is hearing audible distortion he has other problems that need to be addressed before worrying about speaker wire.

Everyone seems to be getting a little off on how the thread has gone. The OP says he hears distortion and thought that my be his speaker wire. Now whether or not you support bi-wiring I'm sure we can all agree that if the OP is hearing audible distortion he has other problems that need to be addressed before worrying about speaker wire.

I was referring to his original post. However, you're correct. The OP did mention further into the thread that he was experiencing distortion. If he's getting distortion, then yes, speaker wire should be the least of his concerns.

I recently purchased a Yam 1900, and I noticed that it recommends if your set-up is 5.1 to use the extra two surrround backs LR to bi-wire them to your fronts, Why would they recommend this, if it does nothing?


search bi-wire....there are so many damn threads on it. Educate yourself on the fact that it DOES NOT DO ANYTHING!!!!

You are wasting your money, go ahead and waste it but do not post on a science forum about it ;)

I recently purchased a Yam 1900, and I noticed that it recommends if your set-up is 5.1 to use the extra two surrround backs LR to bi-wire them to your fronts, Why would they recommend this, if it does nothing?

That's bi-amping, not bi-wiring. I also have a Yamaha, although the manual states that it can be done, I don't see where it "recommends" it.

agree to disagree that bi-wire has been proven as just a "snake oil" audio solution scientifically?

agree to disagree that we should make sure bad advice is not followed?

both?

Have you ever actually posted any Scientific information ?:confused:

im using really cheep monoprice 12g wire, this is actually my final upgrade so i think the 200 is appropriate

There's nothing at all deficient about what you already have. You would spend $200 on wire that doesn't do anything better.

I'd spend the $200 on good stuff to listen to instead.

No need to get your panties in a twist, lighten up a bit for christ sake, it's just audio....lol


lol, you are posting arguing with me, I was helping the OP. Its funny you think I need to lighten up and Im very happy with calling out anyone that has ignorance about this stuff.

You don't like it? Sorry about that just do not post snake oil BS as fact and no no will care ;)

Have you ever actually posted any Scientific information ?:confused:

Its all out there, use google or a the search button. We should not have to cut and paste research for people who do not care about the truth. If someone cares they can easily find the answer with a little research.

Do you ever ask the "bi-wire" crowd how it actually works? or how can the signal across two wires is better then one wire? (btw It's not)

You guys should understand that don't you think? Or you just go with your placebo induced simplistic hearing test to say "of course it sounds better" ;)

Ask anyone out there that has built speakers or built audio equipment about bi-wiring.....not any "friend" with 100% ignorance about audio.

Example would be Bob from QSC who posted above. He has ZERO reason to lie about this.

You think anyone that disagrees with you is ignorant? Oh well.

No you can disagree all you want. I could not care but to think bi-wiring actually changes a damn thing is 100% audio ignorance. Anyone with a brain knows this as fact, how hard is it for others to understand.

Its really sad that you said you would leave but you didnt leave and you are still arguing about something that you have zero knowledge about.

You are 100% correct that it does not matter what I think but its still fun to see how dumb some people about audio (Yes, I believe you to pretty dumb about audio if you believe Bi-wire does anything at all).

It just shows how the education system fails people all the time.

Do you ever ask the "bi-wire" crowd how it actually works? or how can the signal across two wires is better then one wire? (btw It's not)


Yes, I've asked some of "bi-wire" crowd about how it actually works.

The answers ranged from belief in magic, to belief in the total unbiased nature of sighted listening, to just plain weird science.

Penngray, dont bother. You are not going to make a dent. Its just too bad that helping someone on this forum has become such a painful endeavor. Everyone here told the OP exactly what needed to be done and he should just do it. Unfortunately the people who gave the best advice got the most crap from others here. 10 years ago this board was a lot different. Now that the masses are able to get our advice you would think they would listen.

Is it now better advice because 2 respected people in the industry (Bob Lee and Arny K) have also given it?

What is the point of posting here if you are going to take the advice of the members? Its almost like people just want us to tell them what they want to hear instead of listening the best advice possible. It's really sad what this board is becoming.

If Im going to spend $200 on bi-wiring, Im going to find out how it works and not listen to anyone and I would research the science on it.

Do the same people buy diet pills, enlargment pills, penny stocks and so on? its the same CON!!

Do people care that they are being scamed?

Its simply amazing that someone is even arguing over and over that its all just opinion? Its crazy to support that sort of ideology, just crazy.

I will always agree that people can waste their money on anything (I have a nasty list of habits :D ) but if those people want to be involved with any sort of AV science forum then they should atleast try to understand the science involved and not think because they hear something they have any sort of valid opinion to be posted as fact.

Everyone here told the OP exactly what needed to be done and he should just do it.No, they didn't. They editorialized. I'm no proponent of bi-wiring, but most of the people who say it is snake-oil only say that because that is the going line. They are parroting what they have read. The fact is, most of them really don't know what they are talking about.


Rutgar nailed it.
The OP didn't ask how to save $200.00. He asked for speaker wire/cable recommendations to Bi-Wire his speakers.

The rest is commentary.

They are parroting what they have read. The fact is, most of them really don't know what they are talking about.Ah, so you're a mind reader, excellent.

Deleted final comment...

Siva, while I agree with what you are saying, whether its a monkey or the most knowledgable poster here telling you bi-wiring is really not going to make a difference (particularly when there are obvious other problems) I think its sound advice.

I also agree most people here dont know what they are talking about and love to jump on the various bandwagons. Lots of advice given on this forum without experience to back it....no question! But, I am not sure if either you are I are qualified in determining who here is giving advice from experience and who is not and whether it really matters.

I think I am pretty qualified to tell people that a $5K CD player is not going to sound better than a $1K CD player when all things are equal even though I have never owned either one. Besides Bi-wiring has been covered adnausim here. Advice on searching the forums might have been the best advice.

Besides Bi-wiring has been covered adnausim here. Advice on searching the forums might have been the best advice.

Had he searched the forums, he wouldn't have found what he was asking about. Again, the OP wasn't asking about people's opinion on Bi-Wiring.

Ok, he was asking about cables which hs been covered even more than bi-wiring. You are not helping his cause here. You dont think he would have found info on cables here if he did a search?

Siva, while I agree with what you are saying, whether its a monkey or the most knowledgable poster here telling you bi-wiring is really not going to make a difference (particularly when there are obvious other problems) I think its sound advice.He didn't ask for advice regarding whether bi-wiring was worthwhile or not. He asked for cable advice. I do not think HE was ever interested in arguing the merits of bi-wiring. It seems everyone else is, though.

I like to recommend a matching 3rd speaker as a center channel speaker when someone generically asks what center channel speaker they should buy. But I would never push that on someone who has already obviously made up their mind, for whatever reason, to buy a horizontal center channel speaker. Unless they ask why I am recommending a 3rd vertical speaker. Then, they get the whole spiel.

If someone asks a question regarding Speaker A versus Speaker B, I might try and answer that. But what I won't do is berate them for their choices, no matter how much I feel they are bad choices. Sure, I may recommend another option, but I would never say that their options are "wrong" and my recommendation is the "right" choice. Only an option.



I also agree most people here dont know what they are talking about and love to jump on the various bandwagons. Lots of advice given on this forum without experience to back it....no question! But, I am not sure if either you are I are qualified in determining who here is giving advice from experience and who is not and whether it really matters.Which is why we shouldn't give advice specifically regarding bi-wiring in this instance. I'm not qualified to tell someone that bi-wiring is useless. Or useful.


I think I am pretty qualified to tell people that a $5K CD player is not going to sound better than a $1K CD player when all things are equal even though I have never owned either one.So, why do you think that? I am not qualified nor experienced enough to make that assessment.

So, if someone asked a question specifically regarding purchasing a CD player in the $5000 price range, would you tell them that they are wasting their money and should buy a $1000 player instead? I wouldn't. Even if I think that. That person is not interested in anyone's opinion in that regard. Now, if that person asserts in his post that he is buying a $5000 player because it will sound better than a $1000 player because of its DACs, I would probably have to respond to that.

If the OP here had said in his initial post that he wanted to bi-wire his speakers because they WILL sound better that way, some of the responses he got may have been warranted. But all he asked for was advice regarding cables. Sometimes someone will post similarly but will have the wherewithal to preemptively say that they do not want to hear anyone's opinion of bi-wiring and asks specifically that the discussion not turn into an argument about bi-wiring. Yet, it invariably does.

If someone wants to buy a $5000 CD player, that's their business. If someone wants to bi-wire their speakers, that is their choice.


Besides Bi-wiring has been covered adnausim here. Advice on searching the forums might have been the best advice.Bi-wiring didn't need to be discussed at all, here, really. The thread should have been about cables. Laugh. $200 cables. I'm sure that would have turned out similarly, too, though. People would have told the poster he was wasting his money and maybe even called him something stupid. Like "stupid".

Folks need to learn to bite their lip.

Go ahead and biwire...with monoprice wire. As you gathered, if you are getting distortion, it won't be cured with biwiring.

I chose to biwire my Mission speakers with Home Depot wire but Monoprice is just as good and a bit less expensive.

Go ahead and biwire...with monoprice wire.

I chose to biwire my Mission speakers with Home Depot wire.

Another choice is to buy 100' spool 10 AWG speaker wire from Parts Express:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=100-029

This is the same wire I'm using on my surrounds and Center Channel. Flexible and very good quality.

ok i was just going to leave this tread alone because i went in a direction i did not intend it to go. I guess i shouldnt have even mentioned bi wiring because the only reason i really considered it is because i found that there was no price difference between the same brand of bi wires and single wires and i thought it would look nice to have both terminals connected. I do on the other hand want to upgrade my speaker wire and i was just asking for recomendations for good quality wires, nobody was willing to help.

He didn't ask for advice regarding whether bi-wiring was worthwhile or not. He asked for cable advice. I do not think HE was ever interested in arguing the merits of bi-wiring. It seems everyone else is, though.

So you dont think its right for people to give advice on a system unless the OP specifically asks for that particular advice? I dont see anyone here calling him stupid or pushing anything. I think the posters here were saying "Oh BTW were you aware that Bi-wiring may not make a difference." What is wrong with that? I would welcome any extra advice or criticism in my system if someone more knowledgable told me I may have been doing something that may not really be a benefit.


If someone asks a question regarding Speaker A versus Speaker B, I might try and answer that. But what I won't do is berate them for their choices, no matter how much I feel they are bad choices. Sure, I may recommend another option, but I would never say that their options are "wrong" and my recommendation is the "right" choice. Only an option.

I dont see it that way. You do. So be it.


Which is why we shouldn't give advice specifically regarding bi-wiring in this instance. I'm not qualified to tell someone that bi-wiring is useless. Or useful.


Why shouldnt posters? Because you say so? Maybe we should not respond to threads started on redundant topics too.



So, if someone asked a question specifically regarding purchasing a CD player in the $5000 price range, would you tell them that they are wasting their money and should buy a $1000 player instead? I wouldn't. Even if I think that. That person is not interested in anyone's opinion in that regard. Now, if that person asserts in his post that he is buying a $5000 player because it will sound better than a $1000 player because of its DACs, I would probably have to respond to that.

I would not word it that way. I would tell them exactly what I said in my earlier post. That it probably wont sound better when all thing are equal. I never said anything about wasting money. If someone feels its worth it its their choice. My goal is to let someone know how to do a fair comparison and what that means. Is something wrong with that?



If the OP here had said in his initial post that he wanted to bi-wire his speakers because they WILL sound better that way, some of the responses he got may have been warranted. But all he asked for was advice regarding cables. Sometimes someone will post similarly but will have the wherewithal to preemptively say that they do not want to hear anyone's opinion of bi-wiring and asks specifically that the discussion not turn into an argument about bi-wiring. Yet, it invariably does.

So again you feel you are qualified to tell people how to respond to threads. I am not sure but I think at this point any thread started about cables (because its been covered so many times) could go any number of ways. I really dont see what is so bad about letting someone know that Bi-wiring may not be as great as it sounds.




If someone wants to buy a $5000 CD player, that's their business. If someone wants to bi-wire their speakers, that is their choice.


Bi-wiring didn't need to be discussed at all, here, really. The thread should have been about cables. Laugh. $200 cables. I'm sure that would have turned out similarly, too, though. People would have told the poster he was wasting his money and maybe even called him something stupid. Like "stupid".

Folks need to learn to bite their lip.


Probably would have neded up in the same place. So if that is the case what is the problem? As a bonus the OP got some perhaps useful insight on Bi-Wiring. Maybe he will spend time and efforts on other things besides wires now. You seem really annoyed at some of the posters here that responded to the OP and I am just curious why. Also you seem to be getting mad at posters here because of what you "think" they would have posted if the OP had asked about cables (which he did). Why speculate? There must be someone in this thread who has done this before...

ok i was just going to leave this tread alone because i went in a direction i did not intend it to go. I guess i shouldnt have even mentioned bi wiring because the only reason i really considered it is because i found that there was no price difference between the same brand of bi wires and single wires and i thought it would look nice to have both terminals connected. I do on the other hand want to upgrade my speaker wire and i was just asking for recomendations for good quality wires, nobody was willing to help.

Nobody was willing to help??????

YSAY
TRT
biomed
Ysay again
david james
slybasil
jz4h3m
Rutgar

All gave very solid advice about wire. I guess you are just here to complain rather than actually listen to the advice you ask for. Its all in black and white in the thread. If you cant see it than shame on you.

If you dont want to listen to the advice of guys like Penngray, Bob Lee, Kal K, and Arny K (posters who have forgotten more about audio than most people here think they know) than I dont know what to tell you.

You asked a question and (granted the topic got sidetracked) there were plenty of legit answers on the exact question you asked. And now you say "nobody was willing to help" Yeah, those terrible people in the audio industry who took time to answer your question, a question asked every day on this forum.

To the other posters here. I dont care how much you dont like the way this thread went or the things that were posted. The guy got some answers and then spit in the face of all that did try to help. Unacceptable.

ok i was just going to leave this tread alone because i went in a direction i did not intend it to go. I guess i shouldnt have even mentioned bi wiring because the only reason i really considered it is because i found that there was no price difference between the same brand of bi wires and single wires and i thought it would look nice to have both terminals connected. I do on the other hand want to upgrade my speaker wire and i was just asking for recomendations for good quality wires, nobody was willing to help.

I don't know where you got the idea that biwire will cost the same as single wire. If you could provide a link, please let me know. I might be interested in getting some wires also. Then you mentioned that the crappy monoprice wires that you have is causing distortion and that is the reason you want to biwire. And please do not say that nobody was willing to help. Blu Jeans was recommended to you from what I've read.

you can go check out audio advisor and look at some of the audioquest stuff, all their wires are the same price for bi wire. I didnt post this thread to argue or even defend anything, simply some advice on wire in my price range. If you dont agree with spending money on wires thats fine. I felt like i was being attacked right from the get go and i dont feel thats fair. If you disagree with spending money on wires, then please dont post your opinions in a thread asking about 200$ wires, thats not what i asked.

i dont know if there is a way to close a thread you start, but i think this thread needs to be locked, its obvious it has gone in a direction that was not intended

you can go check out audio advisor and look at some of the audioquest stuff, all their wires are the same price for bi wire. I didnt post this thread to argue or even defend anything, simply some advice on wire in my price range. If you dont agree with spending money on wires thats fine. I felt like i was being attacked right from the get go and i dont feel thats fair. If you disagree with spending money on wires, then please dont post your opinions in a thread asking about 200$ wires, thats not what i asked.

Link please.

Link please.Here's what he's talking about I think: http://www.audioadvisor.com/products.asp?dept=26

Geez, wonder what the profit margin is on that stuff.

My helpful hint to the OP would be to go to Monoprice and buy what you want from there. Even the "expensive" stuff is reasonable and the quality is high.

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=AQSLANF

There is a place for $200+ cable. It's called jewelry, nothing wrong with that at all! You just need to know that audio jewelry won't make your sound any better, just like signing a document with a $300 Montblanc pen won't make it any more legal.

Looks DO matter. For a given price, if I could buy cables that performed identically but one looked better than the other, I would buy the one that looked better.

Audioquest is beautiful looking cable, I WILL buy it when $1,000 means nothing to me. I'm not at that point in my career yet, haha.

That being said, I would put $1,000 now into some RPG or DIY equivalent acoustics panels :)
http://www.rpginc.com/proaudio/projects/images/mmix2.jpg

That is a nice video by Audioquest in that link you posted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZN91Er6VZw&eurl=http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=AQSLANF&feature=player_embedded I find it hard to believe that they made a video for such a "beginner" cable.

I like that guy's accent, I'd buy that $200 cable just for the accent and Audioquest name:)

If your criteria are that it look nice, you really don't need recommendations for wire. Just buy what looks nice.

You say that no one was willing to help? You must've skipped over half of the thread then!

Holy crap, that price for 10 ft cables... I don't think anyone here is/was attempting to attack you cembros, but perhaps just trying to save you and your wallet from buying needlessly expensive wire. Sure, you didn't ask for it, but if you come across a guy ina store who is about to buy a plasma tv that is $4,000 more than the one next to it, and they both perform exactly the same, wouldn't you step in and at least give a suggestion? Even ignoring the price, bi-wiring is useless, as has already been said. Ignoring that, stating that you're getting interference from those "cheap" cables is another doubtful item. Speaker wires and their signals really don't get audible interference levels (maybe measurable, but not audible), if you get interference it is usually at the step before amplification, as such, those here i think were also trying to point you in the right direction instead of wasting money replacing something that won't make a difference with your problem.

From what I can tell, AA is using exact same wire for single and biwire. It is all based on the Audioquest Double Star Quad Geometry with 8 wires. To make single wire, they go 4 and 4 on both ends. For biwire, 4 and 4 on the amp side and 2-2-2-2 on the speaker side. The only difference is the two extra terminators they added to the biwire for additional cost of $0.05. That is the reason why the price is the same. I'm really quite surprised AA did not add it to the cost.

ok i was just going to leave this tread alone because i went in a direction i did not intend it to go. I guess i shouldnt have even mentioned bi wiring because the only reason i really considered it is because i found that there was no price difference between the same brand of bi wires and single wires and i thought it would look nice to have both terminals connected. I do on the other hand want to upgrade my speaker wire and i was just asking for recomendations for good quality wires, nobody was willing to help.Canare 4S11 StarQuad Speaker Cable. Blue Jean Cable Company.

I do on the other hand want to upgrade my speaker wire and i was just asking for recomendations for good quality wires, nobody was willing to help.

People did help, they said speaker wires do not need to be "UPGRADED" because there is no such thing as speaker wire that improves sound unless its that silly crap with boxes that ALTER (DISTORT) sound. Wires themselves do not have the ability to change sound from the cheap $1/foot to the silly $100/foot stuff, we are talking about audibility here....measurements can show small changes in resistance.

Its pretty simple, read this http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

If you dont want to listen to the advice of guys like Penngray, Bob Lee, Kal K, and Arny K (posters who have forgotten more about audio than most people here think they know) than I dont know what to tell you.



hehe, I have to say that Im not even remotely in the same class as those guys...I envy their knowledge/expertise and professionism, day after day on here!!!

If you dont want to listen to the advice of guys like Penngray, Bob Lee, Kal K, and Arny K (posters who have forgotten more about audio than most people here think they know) than I dont know what to tell you.Penngray? Penngray! You have got to be kidding! :rolleyes: :D ;)

Seriously.

And the beat goes on..........................

Yeah!! Really..How did Penngray get lumped in there? LOL

gadzooks! i just luv theezs bywhyre threds!

ya learn sew mutch.:p:D

Metal did you do any type of comparison (DBT) with your MIT cables and some Home Depot wire or something like that?

Yes, i did do a comparison, between the 16ga Walmart cable i was using and my newly acquired MIT AVt-2 speaker cables.

The MIT's, at least to me and my fiancee, seem to provide a clearer, crisper sound compared to the Walmart cables. I switched them back and fourth a bunch of times over the course of a weekend, and i noticed an improvement everytime.

I didn't do any double blind testing though, i'll have to give that a try sometime when i have some friends or family over.

So yes, i notice a difference. Placebo effect? Maybe.
But i'm just going by my own ears, and my fiancee who could honestly care less about any of this audio stuff noticed as well. And the main thing is, i'm happy i gave the cables a shot. I did a lot of reading on the internet about speaker cables, articles from both sides, and i just wanted to try for myself before making any preconceived notions.

Anyways, as i've said, i'm happy with my MIT AVt-2 speaker cables, i'll be keeping them and won't be going back to Walmart cables. That being said, i would not pay full price for these, i got them at a huge discount which is why i was willing to give them a shot, but i'm glad i did. I'm certainly not going on some journey for better and better cables, this is where it probably ends for me unless i sell or trade them to someone for something else someday.

Now i know a lot of you think that spending a little extra on speaker cables will make no difference, and the fact that myself and others claim to hear a difference is complete BS to you, and i respect that, as that's your own personal decision to make. But please have a little respect and do not call me (and others like me) ignorant and stupid for it, that's just distasteful. A little class never hurts.

But what am i saying, this is an internet forum, people will always be distasteful....lol ;)
(I guess it's time to put on the flame suit)


I believe you Metal!, I've Heard the Difference!, I've done the A/B and my ears don't lie!

And Yes I am a Polkie and I don't believe in "Magic" LOL

Lasareath

Yes, i did do a comparison, between the 16ga Walmart cable i was using and my newly acquired MIT AVt-2 speaker cables.

The MIT's, at least to me and my fiancee, seem to provide a clearer, crisper sound compared to the Walmart cables. I switched them back and fourth a bunch of times over the course of a weekend, and i noticed an improvement everytime.

I didn't do any double blind testing though, i'll have to give that a try sometime when i have some friends or family over.

So yes, i notice a difference. Placebo effect? Maybe.
But i'm just going by my own ears, and my fiancee who could honestly care less about any of this audio stuff noticed as well. And the main thing is, i'm happy i gave the cables a shot. I did a lot of reading on the internet about speaker cables, articles from both sides, and i just wanted to try for myself before making any preconceived notions.

Anyways, as i've said, i'm happy with my MIT AVt-2 speaker cables, i'll be keeping them and won't be going back to Walmart cables. That being said, i would not pay full price for these, i got them at a huge discount which is why i was willing to give them a shot, but i'm glad i did. I'm certainly not going on some journey for better and better cables, this is where it probably ends for me unless i sell or trade them to someone for something else someday.

Now i know a lot of you think that spending a little extra on speaker cables will make no difference, and the fact that myself and others claim to hear a difference is complete BS to you, and i respect that, as that's your own personal decision to make. But please have a little respect and do not call me (and others like me) ignorant and stupid for it, that's just distasteful. A little class never hurts.

But what am i saying, this is an internet forum, people will always be distasteful....lol ;)
(I guess it's time to put on the flame suit)


MIT cables are in a class all their own. Regardless whether one thinks the network boxes on them are a good or bad thing. They DO offer a noticable difference in the sound of your system. MIT does a convincing demonstration every year at RMAF, and it's always fun to hang around in there and see skeptics walk out with their minds completely changed about cables. I personally like what they do to the sound of my system. With that said, MIT cables are also a very sizable investment compared to most other speaker cables and interconnects. Even their modest priced AVt-2 cost as much as the OP's speakers.

MIT cables are in a class all their own. Regardless whether one thinks the network boxes on them are a good or bad thing. They DO offer a noticable difference in the sound of your system.

If the DO make a noticable difference, why can't thier own empoloyees pick them out in a DBT? You would think they would know what to listen for.

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=60159.msg539789#msg539789

Yes, i did do a comparison, between the 16ga Walmart cable i was using and my newly acquired MIT AVt-2 speaker cables.

The MIT's, at least to me and my fiancee, seem to provide a clearer, crisper sound compared to the Walmart cables. I switched them back and fourth a bunch of times over the course of a weekend, and i noticed an improvement everytime.

I didn't do any double blind testing though, i'll have to give that a try sometime when i have some friends or family over.

So yes, i notice a difference. Placebo effect? Maybe.
But i'm just going by my own ears, and my fiancee who could honestly care less about any of this audio stuff noticed as well. And the main thing is, i'm happy i gave the cables a shot. I did a lot of reading on the internet about speaker cables, articles from both sides, and i just wanted to try for myself before making any preconceived notions.

Anyways, as i've said, i'm happy with my MIT AVt-2 speaker cables, i'll be keeping them and won't be going back to Walmart cables. That being said, i would not pay full price for these, i got them at a huge discount which is why i was willing to give them a shot, but i'm glad i did. I'm certainly not going on some journey for better and better cables, this is where it probably ends for me unless i sell or trade them to someone for something else someday.

Now i know a lot of you think that spending a little extra on speaker cables will make no difference, and the fact that myself and others claim to hear a difference is complete BS to you, and i respect that, as that's your own personal decision to make. But please have a little respect and do not call me (and others like me) ignorant and stupid for it, that's just distasteful. A little class never hurts.

But what am i saying, this is an internet forum, people will always be distasteful....lol ;)
(I guess it's time to put on the flame suit)

Be interesting to see a DBT with some comprably gauged wire. Might be a better and more useful test. Rgardless, I think the issue here is more your attititue than anything else. Going back and looking at your posting you seems really defensive and you keep preaching to others how to post while you say you can post whatever you like. I guess nobody is allowed to have an opinion unless its either your opinion or supports your side. Then I ask a very normal routine question and again you have to litter your response with more do's and don'ts of posting on the forum. Also, you keep making broad generalizations about the board and the distasteful members. What I find distasteful is just what you are doing.

For a guy who keeps posting over and over you "couldn't care less what others think" you sure put a lot of effort into telling people how to post and how YOU want to be treated here. You have to earn your respect here especially if you are not going to respect others. Your first post in this thread was simple name calling and inflamitory.

Also, the fact that you posted this statement "There is no proper way to improve someones system" really makes me wonder....

I wasn't even talking about bi wiring. I have no opinions on it, never tried it, and have no interest in doing so.

I was talking about speaker cables in general. And all i was getting at in my first post was that the OP should do whatever he wants. There is only one way to truely find out, and that's by trying things for himself. Whether or not cables make a difference wasn't even the question. Many people believe that the quality of speaker cables can make a difference (and many people like yourself don't), and no, not just uneducated people.

Not on this site, if we let this thread go unchecked them people might actually believe Bi-wiring makes a difference and that should not happen. We should be educating people EVERY chance we get. The whole idea of society sticky their heads in the sand has us where we are in the world today....Its BS. Speak up, be heard if you have a valid and scientifically back opinion. I will not let AVS go down the road of snake-oil wins over science....I will do my best to stop it in any thread I find period!


And you can call me dumb and bash me all you want simply because i believe quality cables can make a difference. Obviously that's just the type of person you are, and that is what's sad.


I have never called anyone dumb, I have called you dumb about science but Im sure you are not generally a dumb person. There is a difference!

I also call you ignorant about science too and that is not an insult becuase it only means you choose not to care or learn about sceince.

If someone can hear the difference between two difference wires then $1 million is easy to win isnt it ;) You are aware of the $1 million challenge aren't you?


and the fact that myself and others claim to hear a difference is complete BS to you, and i respect that, as that's your own personal decision to make. But please have a little respect and do not call me (and others like me) ignorant and stupid for it, that's just distasteful. A little class never hurts.


again, you are ignorant about the science behind audio if you believe they make a difference. That is not an insult, its just a fact. Its also not my opinion that they do not make a difference is scientific FACT. Do you even care about the science behind audio?

Since you spent money on your cables, how much did you spend on room treatments? I wonder if you have ever measured your room, etc.....all this money searching for the best sound and I would hope you did something right?


I didn't do any double blind testing though, i'll have to give that a try sometime when i have some friends or family over.

I appreciate that, its the first time you have atleast acknowledge that maybe you should attempt it. Others run from it because they know the truth that once you do it properly you will realize the differences are not there.

I believe you Metal!, I've Heard the Difference!, I've done the A/B and my ears don't lie!

If it was not a DBT, of course your ears lie to you....Im shocked people are so unaware of the effects your brain has on your ears, you hear what your brain wants you to hear. Research Placebo effects, etc you will find out that BIAS controls your preceptions. You see a brand name, you see a price tag and you are going to hear something based on what your brain deems to be true.

Now I do not care what you buy or like in your home but again, that type of subjective unprovable BS should not be posted as fact on this forum.

Other then that you guys can win tons of $$$ with those ears of yours ;)

Heck, I offer $1K to my friends and family in my tests if they can pick out the most expensive cable, wire, amp, etc....its a great experiment. I don't just post things do not work on here either, I actually spend large $$$ to find out for myself. I have been doing it since a couple of superfreak Engineers showed me the truth 20 years ago in Unverisity. I lived with three very High IQ freakheads :eek:

MIT cables are in a class all their own. Regardless whether one thinks the network boxes on them are a good or bad thing. They DO offer a noticable difference in the sound of your system. MIT does a convincing demonstration every year at RMAF, and it's always fun to hang around in there and see skeptics walk out with their minds completely changed about cables. I personally like what they do to the sound of my system. With that said, MIT cables are also a very sizable investment compared to most other speaker cables and interconnects. Even their modest priced AVt-2 cost as much as the OP's speakers

Rutgar, have you ever measured your system? with the wires? without the wires?

I wonder what the MITs are tweaking. Anything with a "BOX" to hide something obviously has some sort of filtering on it and therefore is distorting the original sound to please certain people. Conclusion, by an pro audyssey box and config things as you like..probably the same costs and you have greater flexibility

Penngray? Penngray! You have got to be kidding!

Seriously.

Yeah!! Really..How did Penngray get lumped in there? LOL

lol! That is what I said :D

I just felt that people were'nt respecting the OP, and it seemed like he was getting flammed when he wasn't even asking if anything matters. Maybe i took it all out of context.


No there was a little of that but I think it was his stubborn replies to honest opinions trying to help him and I know I fuel the fire because I couldn't believe he wanted to spend $200 on wires for $700 speakers. I still can not believe someone would do that today but again, its his money.

Also agree that audio is very subjective, we all like different speakers, room EQed a certain way, etc. but the electronics side is truely less subjective if people understand the science behind it. That is where you and I will disagree. I believe in the data/measurements, etc to dictate what I do (buy/setup) with my electronics, you simply like to listen and believe what you hear in a sighted test.

Metal its really too bad that you thought that the OP was getting "flamed" or "bashed" or whatever you want to call it when all that really happend is the advice given to him was something you did not want to hear and you dont agree with.

That is all that happened. Lets not turn it into something else. You are not this guys lawyer or bodyguard and all evidence points to the OP showing a lot more disrespect to the site than vice-versa. The OP thread was an overly covered topic and its thread title was "bi-wiring" anyway regarelss of what he wanted to hear.

Telling someone to save your money on cables is called being helpful. You are more than welcome to enlighten us all about how cables do indeed make a difference. However, considering that the MIT guys themselves could not tell the difference (on a high end system no less) dosen't that tell you something?

No there was a little of that but I think it was his stubborn replies to honest opinions trying to help him and I know I fuel the fire because I couldn't believe he wanted to spend $200 on wires for $700 speakers.

While I agree that spending money on wires will not improve the sound. why do you keep misrepresenting his Polk speakers? They are not $700 speakers. The Lsi15 are $1700 a pair, and the LsiC is $560. That's $2260, so you're just a little off.

http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/lsi/index.php?s=lsi15

http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/center.php#lsi

They are not $700 speakers. The Lsi15 are $1700 a pair, and the LsiC is $560. That's $2260, so you're just a little off.


For some reason I thought he had Lsi9s and then I checked the Lsi15s and saw the $600 online but I realize that was 'each' so Im off and its $1200 for the Lsi15s. (yes MSRP is $1700)

Now I have no idea if thats $200 for all cables or per speaker so it could still be $600 for a speaker and $200 for cables but you are right my $$$ were off a bit.

So just to clarify on the whole speaker cables make a difference thing, yes i feel they make a difference, but no i haven't done any DBT. I am more than willing to do that when i have the opportunity though, and if the difference i hear happens to be placebo effect, well then so be it. But for now, i'm happy with my choices, if that makes me ignorant, well then maybe ignorance is bliss....

Very well said and you should know that I believe that "ignorance is bliss" can be a great thing because once you get to involved you stop enjoying and do too much testing ;) I actually stopped myself recently from constantly measuring and tweaking my HT room to just enjoy the room...it makes my wife much happier.

If people understand the science and still choose to spend $$$ then that is okay with me, we all have our 'needs' and that is purely a subjective decision.

why don't you just go to home depot and buy some wire their. Then get a drill and twin the together?

why don't you just go to home depot and buy some wire their. Then get a drill and twin the together?

The last spool of speaker wire I bought from Home Depot all turned green. I wouldn't recommend it.

The last spool of speaker wire I bought from Home Depot all turned green. I wouldn't recommend it.



And that green has NO impact on the audio. Give me a break.

Actually, it might. I did some testing on 50 ft lengths of early monster cable that did this and it was slightly different in sweeps than new versions of the same product. This was back in the 1980s and the cable may have changed, but I suspect that the corrosion was more significant than changes in the cable design. Later versions did not oxidize as quickly.

And that green has NO impact on the audio. Give me a break.

I never said that it did have any impact on the audio. Maybe you don't care what stuff looks like in your house, but I do. The green looks like crap. And just to compare, I have some old 10 awg Monster speaker wire that's at least 10 years older than the Home Depot stuff, and it hasn't ever turned green. And I have some 10 awg stuff that I bought from Parts Express that has never turned green as well.

Later versions did not oxidize as quickly.


Copper oxide comes in black and brown, sulphates are blue and chlorides are green. PVC contains chlorine....not that it matters.

I wasn't even talking about bi wiring. I have no opinions on it, never tried it, and have no interest in doing so.


So you originally had $10 "Walmart" speaker wire and decided to spend $3-500 on a speaker wire "upgrade" for $1000 speakers.....sounds like $$$ well spent.:rolleyes:

Then I find out the MIT AVt-2's have a bi-wire version as well. So you never tried bi-wiring?:confused: Then why are you here?

Then I find out the MIT AVt-2's have a bi-wire version as well. So you never tried bi-wiring?:confused: Then why are you here?

MIT's 'bi-wired' cables really aren't "bi-wiring". At least not in the sense that bi-wiring is two identical speaker cables running parallel from the amp to the speakers. MIT only has a single set of connectors that go into the amp. They have 2 sets of pig tails coming out of the Network Box. One specifically for the low frequency module, one for the high frequency module.

I'm going to have to try some DBT with my cables sometime now, because i'm very curious what the outcome would be. I'll be honest though, i would be a bit discouraged if the outcome was that i can't tell a difference. But if that ended up being the case, i'd at least have the aesthetics of the cable which i'd still love (yes, aesthetics do play a role in some of my decisions)...lol ;)

I do feel strongly that my MIT's made a difference compared to the 16ga Walmart cable i was using. But i suppose when it comes down to it, some DBT would be a great way to truly find out. Either way, i still won't switch back to the Walmart cables whether they sound the same or not, they just look cheap and ugly. And remember, i appreciate aesthetics. ;)

Maybe i'll sit back and enjoy my whole system for a while before i decide to do this though. ;)

Perhaps next time do the DBT BEFORE you buy the cables?;)

One specifically for the low frequency module, one for the high frequency module.



MIT does not post the specs on their wires anywhere do they?

MIT does not post the specs on their wires anywhere do they?

I don't know which specific specs you're looking for Penn. But here is link to the White Papers on MIT's web site:

http://www.mitcables.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=76&Itemid=91

Since you're more technically minded than I am, you might be able to get more out of all of it than I do. I get lost once you get past basic Ohms Law. ;)

Thanks for the links to MIT but I wanted some third party research if possible.

I did read a couple of the white papers though, I have never heard the term Random Reactive Noise, RRN so I googled it and still found nothing. Right now I will assume that is a MIT defined term.

Also if MIT can test RRN versus frequency then so can we. No? We also should be able to measure the RRN like they do...no?

If we can perform similar measurements then we can dispute or prove MIT's case independantly, I can not find anywhere this is done (yet) so I wonder why this is?

I always thought measuring resistance/inductance and capacitance stuff was what was needed but this RRN sounds so exciting ;)

I always thought measuring resistance/inductance and capacitance stuff was what was needed but this RRN sounds so exciting ;)

My favorite are the "articulation" measurements. Fascinating stuff...:rolleyes:

I never said that it did have any impact on the audio. Maybe you don't care what stuff looks like in your house, but I do. The green looks like crap. And just to compare, I have some old 10 awg Monster speaker wire that's at least 10 years older than the Home Depot stuff, and it hasn't ever turned green. And I have some 10 awg stuff that I bought from Parts Express that has never turned green as well.

If you want some really neat looking speaker cables, try some SOJW black EPDM-jacketed 2 conductor 12 gauge cable. Put Speakon connectors on both ends. Upgrade your amps and speakers with Speakon connectors.

Just curious....What was his reason for selling them;)

If you want some really neat looking speaker cables, try some SOJW black EPDM-jacketed 2 conductor 12 gauge cable. Put Speakon connectors on both ends. Upgrade your amps and speakers with Speakon connectors.

First off, why would I want Speakon connectors? And second, preferring speaker wire that the copper doesn't turn green, isn't the same thing as buying wire just because it 'looks good'.

Dude, seriously..relax. You come across as the most defensive person on this forum I have ever seen if not just nieve and somewhat immature. Every comment with you is a justification of some sorts as to "why you bought this", "Its your money and you can do what you want", "we believe", "Its my money to waste."

Got a news flash for you. Nobody here cares...Ok? Feel better? We do have rep for being one of the most knowledgable AV boards in the biz so when people come on here with "Claims" we do out best to make sure people understand what the "claims" really mean...Follow me?

Just answer me this. If you and (more so) Mr Shotgun cables are such "believers" then how come thousands of much more knowledgable hobbists have never been able to tell a difference with cable with much more scientific tests.....In addtion, when one was done, with MIT guys present (guys who work for the company) they could not tell a diffeence on a much more sensitive system than most people have. And finally, why is it that with all these believers out there and all these great cable manufactuers not one has ever been able to show proof that when all things are equal their cables made an improvement. Dont you find any of this a little odd? Wouldn't it just be easy to say "In a DBT 3 out of 5 people choose our cables 75% of the time""""?????

Nothing, Zero, Nada, Zip.

Yes and your answers are always an advitorial. Anyway, are you going to answer my question?

You are nieve BTW. Why is that an insult? Only someome who really felt they got scammed would consider it that? We are all nieve in a way and are all here to learn.

Dude, seriously..relax. You come across as the most defensive person on this forum I have ever seen if not just nieve and somewhat immature. Every comment with you is a justification of some sorts as to "why you bought this", "Its your money and you can do what you want", "we believe", "Its my money to waste."

Got a news flash for you. Nobody here cares...Ok? Feel better? We do have rep for being one of the most knowledgable AV boards in the biz so when people come on here with "Claims" we do out best to make sure people understand what the "claims" really mean...Follow me?

Just answer me this. If you and (more so) Mr Shotgun cables are such "believers" then how come thousands of much more knowledgable hobbists have never been able to tell a difference with cable with much more scientific tests.....In addtion, when one was done, with MIT guys present (guys who work for the company) they could not tell a diffeence on a much more sensitive system than most people have. And finally, why is it that with all these believers out there and all these great cable manufactuers not one has ever been able to show proof that when all things are equal their cables made an improvement. Dont you find any of this a little odd? Wouldn't it just be easy to say "In a DBT 3 out of 5 people choose our cables 75% of the time""""?????

Nothing, Zero, Nada, Zip.


Wow! Someone got their cerial pee'd in this morning! ;)

Sure.. immature is an insult. But there is same basis for the insult. Go and look back at your posts in this thread:

Insults
Claiming you can post where you want and what you want whenever you want
Sarcasm
Claims with no supporing evidence
Excuses

Shall we continue?

naive.




I've always loved the ornate playfulness of Steve Nieve, however. I should pull out Imperial Bedroom for a spin (some of his finest & funnest keyboard work, IMO).

oh, & yea.. single wire rules, bi-wiring drools.

I understand you guys think that these MIT cables are pointless (or apparently any cable that cost more than $10), but if one has the money to burn, and want's to try something out for themself, then i don't see the problem with that

There is no problem with you spending your money on whatever you want. You are free to spend hundreds of dollars or even more on loudspeaker cables as sure as you are to make your life decisions by consulting a Magic 8 Ball.

People who are knowledgeable about wires, though, will tend to object to advising others that they should really do the same.

naive.

I've always loved the ornate playfulness of Steve Nieve, however. I should pull out Imperial Bedroom for a spin (some of his finest & funnest keyboard work, IMO).
i like rupert neve. and his mixing consoles.














:p

For those interested, here is a picture of the inside of one of MIT's boxes:

http://images.google.com/url?source=imgres&ct=img&q=http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/60xint2.jpg&usg=AFQjCNHaZ073zAVliLCoOvoqD2wA3tN63A


Just Kidding! :p - Here is a real picture of the inside of one of MIT cable boxes:

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff282/rutgar/MIT2.jpg?t=1235066731

Here is another picture of the inside of an MIT box.

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/4218/mitboxcv5.jpg

Looks like top quality components, just look at those switches! Gotta be at least $3 worth of stuff there...

I understand you guys think that these MIT cables are pointless (or apparently any cable that cost more than $10), but if one has the money to burn, and want's to try something out for themself, then i don't see the problem with that


I would love to know how they are built and what they "enhance" I mean "distort"!! :D

This is the whole idea of science and if everyone loves audio that much then they should want the truth also.


Im still looking for a way to measure RRN!!! Lets start there! :D

Again, for a guy who claims "everyone else takes this so seriously" you seem to always need to have the last word in everything. Bob Lee summed up what I (and many others) were trying to say. He used the 8ball as an example of freedom of choice....nothing more, and hit the nail on the head with advising others without knowlegde. Nothing he wrote was insulting and you missed the point.

LOL.....Buying speaker cables and making life decisions have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Just because i spent a little money on cables doesn't mean i make life decisions consulting a Magic 8 Ball.... lol

Buying audio equipment is hardly a life decision, these are just "toys" to me.
There are far more important things in life then this little, but certainly fun and addictive, hobby.

Anyways, i'm sure the comments will just keep coming, such is the nature of an interent forum. A lot of you folks seem to take this stuff very seriously, and i respect that, but i don't feel the same way. I love this hobby, it's very fun for me, but when it comes down to it, that's all it is, a hobby.


You have to understand that no one is questioning what you buy. They are posting on a science forum facts so that people do not make bad decisions and DO want to save their money. Lets just say this is less about you and more about anyone reading posts in this forum.

If you understand that the science has proved so far that there is no audible difference and you still choose to buy expensive wires then no worries, enjoy your system. Heck, I spend $5K to 10K per year on electronics STUFF I sell it for a loss all the time, I just love to tweak/test/prove my own theories and that does cost $$$. I have amps/speakers sitting around not even used any more, I have drivers stacked up in my Garage for possible future DIY projects :eek:

Here is another picture of the inside of an MIT box.

Looks like top quality components, just look at those switches! Gotta be at least $3 worth of stuff there...

Great Pic! You can easily see how the new MA series is quite a step up from the older V2.1 series! :p

My ears are better than any of y'all's.

:D

My ears are better than any of y'all's.

:D

Oh yeah? How do you know? Did ya do a DBT? It doesn't count if you didn't do a DBT. In fact, you can't even be sure that 12KHz sounds different from 200 Hz without verifying it with a DBT! :p

LOL.....Buying speaker cables and making life decisions have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Certainly, although one is free to apply whatever level of reasoning--including none at all--to either.

i like rupert neve. and his mixing consoles.


:p

Perhaps I'm being naive about boarding etiquette, but you've got some nerve to bring up neve in response to by post about nieve.







:p:p

Where do i sign up to win this $1 million, i'll go take the test and buy all of you some nice expensive cables when i win! Haha kidding kidding lol..:p :D

Are you kidding about winning, or buying us overpriced cables?

Or maybe ill just pay an 8 year old to do it with those nice small fingers and sharp eyes. hehehehe.

have fun ya'all... ;)

:eek:


Sorry, couldn't resist :p

..............i do like a good cable bi-wire thread so i guess im going to put in my opinion here, hope you all dont mind.Yes, this is the whole problem with this thread. :rolleyes: :D ;)

So my next upgrade will be some decent cables with spade or bannana connectors. Im leaning toward the spades as i dont think i like the stress the bannanas put on the speaker terminals.

Spades on the speaker end. Bananas on the amp end. Not enough room on the back of an AVR for spades.

thanks for the suggestion, but you know im now going to have to get behind that receiver again and look and probably take some measurements. :p

If you don't use a micrometer, it won't be considered scientific. :p

If you don't use a micrometer, it won't be considered scientific. :pShouldn't he also do it blind...twice?

;)

Shouldn't he also do it blind...twice?

;)

That a bad idea. A single eye patch will work better.

you always use a mic rometer when dealing with audio equipment. :D

rowmeter? rhometer?

First off, why would I want Speakon connectors? .

Same reason as you want bananna plugs or pins on the end of your speaker cables, except that Speakon's do *everything* right.

(1) Inherently safe - no exposed power, even when unmated.

(2) Easy-twist latching, so they don't come unplugged unless you want them to, and they do come unplugged with one hand when you do. Even a 62 year old lady with arthritis can use them with comfort and confidence.

(3) Only mate one way, the right way.

(4) Very low contact resistance and good insulation for high-powered systems.

(5) Readily available and reasonable cost (under $10) including some polished fluted metal-shelled models that just look great.

(6) Very durable, can be run over, stepped on, twisted with vice grips, etc.

(7) Easy to attach to large gauge wire, and with built-in strain relief. If you need to pull a car out of a ditch or tie a motorcycle down, don't worry. They take a likin' and keep clickin'! Two words: "Roady Proof".

(8) Speakons are available with up to 8 contacts, so that from 4 to 7 speakers can be attached with just one plug.

http://www.neutrik.com/fl/en/audio/204_672560351/STX_Series_productlist.aspx

A properly-attached Speakon gives a highly finished appearance with no gaps, no exposed inner insulation, no exposed conductors of any kind. There are both cable-mounted and wall-mounted versions. The wall-mounted versions are essentially flush and inherently safe.





And second, preferring speaker wire that the copper doesn't turn green, isn't the same thing as buying wire just because it 'looks good'.

IME SOJ cables are made up of chemically compatible materials so that the insulation takes a long time to harden or crack, and if they have bare copper standing, the stranding still looks like copper a few decades down the road. If you want to a few spend extra bucks, silicon insulation is available.

Same reason as you want bananna plugs or pins on the end of your speaker cables, except that Speakon's do *everything* right.

(1) Inherently safe - no exposed power, even when unmated.

(2) Easy-twist latching, so they don't come unplugged unless you want them to, and they do come unplugged with one hand when you do. Even a 62 year old lady with arthritis can use them with comfort and confidence.

(3) Only mate one way, the right way.

(4) Very low contact resistance and good insulation for high-powered systems.

(5) Readily available and reasonable cost (under $10) including some polished fluted metal-shelled models that just look great.

(6) Very durable, can be run over, stepped on, twisted with vice grips, etc.

(7) Easy to attach to large gauge wire, and with built-in strain relief. If you need to pull a car out of a ditch or tie a motorcycle down, don't worry. They take a likin' and keep clickin'! Two words: "Roady Proof".

(8) Speakons are available with up to 8 contacts, so that from 4 to 7 speakers can be attached with just one plug.

http://www.neutrik.com/fl/en/audio/204_672560351/STX_Series_productlist.aspx

A properly-attached Speakon gives a highly finished appearance with no gaps, no exposed inner insulation, no exposed conductors of any kind. There are both cable-mounted and wall-mounted versions. The wall-mounted versions are essentially flush and inherently safe.




Uh... okay. I still don't see a single reason that would make sense for someone to go and change all of the connectors on their gear and cables to 'Speakon'. I mean, afterall... I don't plan on running over, pinching, or stepping on my current connectors. Nor do I have to hook and un-hook my cables constantly. My current connectors are quite safe enough. I don't have any 62 year ladies in my house (with or without arthritis). I have no need to connect multiple speakers up from one cable. Their relative low cost means nothing since I already have my current connectors bought and paid for and in place. And finally, I don't plan on using my cables to pull any cars out of any ditches or tie any motorcycles down.

What i am after in a finished product or a DIY project would be a speaker cable that lays down after unwrapping it (unlike rip cord which likes to make little loops).

Learn how to pay out the cable properly....this is not a property of the cable, it's how you use it.
It's called zip cord, rip cords are used to deploy parachutes.

cadbury, just go to Home Depot and get a spool (or whatver you need) of their 14awg wire. Why would you use anything else? Get some bananas too and you are done.

hehehehe.

are you high?

You seem to giggle a lot...it's friday, maybe you were high....just a thought...you didn't seem to uunderstand any of the suggestions presented to you...hehehe.

nope not high. i dont use drugs.

Your loss :D

thats what im using now. rip cord sucks. ive looked at it for to long and its just ugly in my living room running all over the place. the kinky curly aspect of it is just a turn off. I like things to look neat and tidy. orderly if you will.

Why not just run it in the walls then? Can't get any neater than that. Wire laying on the floor looks bad, no matter what kind it is.

im looking to bi-wire my.....









J/K

After reading this thread, I am starting to miss the BluRay vs HDDVD discussions ;)
Best,
James W Barron
snowtrooper1966

im looking to bi-wire my.....


heard they got a new version out...tri-wiring.

all the many bi-wiring threads can now be started anew with tri-wire threads.:eek::D:p
we'll get to read and write all the b.s. over again.

Greetings, Westgate!
Haven't heard from you since the beginning of the HL-S DLP thread.
I'll give it a "tri", but I suppose it wil require some triple blind testing....

Best,

Greetings, Westgate!
Haven't heard from you since the beginning of the HL-S DLP thread.
I'll give it a "tri", but I suppose it wil require some triple blind testing....

Best,

you're a real 'trooper' for giving it a 'tri'!:p:o
as they say in japan, 'rots o' ruck'!:D

you're a real 'trooper' for giving it a 'tri'!:p:o
as they say in japan, 'rots o' ruck'!:D

D'oh!
Just read your sig...
Either you upgraded since our last conversation, or it was another (Denon?) thread...
Best,
James

No need to bi/tri/quad-wire. Just use one of this.
http://s.sears.com/is/image/Sears/02807323000?qlt=90,0&resMode=sharp&op_usm=0.9,0.5,0,0

No need to bi/tri/quad-wire. Just use one of this.
http://s.sears.com/is/image/Sears/02807323000?qlt=90,0&resMode=sharp&op_usm=0.9,0.5,0,0

now yer talkin'!

"ZZZZZZZZZZZTTT":eek::eek::eek::eek:!

but wait! that's only enough for one channel!

D'oh!
Just read your sig...
Either you upgraded since our last conversation, or it was another (Denon?) thread...
Best,
James
sig...or personal details/gear?
not really upgrades, just putting back into service some analog gear i've had for many, many years and not used in same. and bought a few more new-to-me pieces.

i guess the hi def players and hdmi switcher are kinda' new, tho.

I subscribed to this thread. Oh man, why did I do that. Please kill this thread. Just a waste of bandwidth (now).

:o

Uh... okay. I still don't see a single reason that would make sense for someone to go and change all of the connectors on their gear and cables to 'Speakon'.


What about new construction?


I mean, afterall... I don't plan on running over, pinching, or stepping on my current connectors.


What about the appearance benefits of using Speakons?


Nor do I have to hook and un-hook my cables constantly.


What about the safety benefits of using Speakons?



My current connectors are quite safe enough.


Probably speaks to the low power level of your system.


I don't have any 62 year ladies in my house (with or without arthritis).


You missed the obvious point - Speakons are easy enough for anybody to use. Unlike bananas, they *can't* be plugged-in wrong.


I have no need to connect multiple speakers up from one cable.


What about people who do?


Their relative low cost means nothing since I already have my current connectors bought and paid for and in place.


What about people who aren't as happy with retro-technology as you are?


And finally, I don't plan on using my cables to pull any cars out of any ditches or tie any motorcycles down.

So, durability means nothing?

Bi-wire is 99% hype. Don't bother. Yes, different cables can sound different mostly because they mess things up worse in different ways. I have never heard or measured anything better than 11 ga. zip cord, ( generic fake Monster cable).

The problem is the passive crossover.
Bi-amp with an active crossover, and deposit the passive one in the only place where it will improve your sound, the trash. An $80 "pro" crossover worst-you-can-buy is better than the very finest passive. The DBX is actually as good as most high end amps. Yes, you can use XLR plug pro stuff with RCA consumer stuff just fine.

About the same for interconnect cables. The problem is most source equipment does not have proper line drivers. Exotic cables only helped mask the real problem. No magic material, configuration, or color improves the output stage.

I subscribed to this thread. Oh man, why did I do that. Please kill this thread. Just a waste of bandwidth (now).

:o
what! you dont like a good time?:confused: a good read?:confused::eek:

watsamottawidya?:confused:

:)

The truth behind bi-wired speakers is that the people who build bi-wired speakers know that there is a certain truth that certain buyers will not choose to buy speakers that can not be bi-wired.

The problem is the passive crossover.
Bi-amp with an active crossover, and deposit the passive one in the only place where it will improve your sound, the trash. An $80 "pro" crossover worst-you-can-buy is better than the very finest passive. The DBX is actually as good as most high end amps. Yes, you can use XLR plug pro stuff with RCA consumer stuff just fine.


Many, many, many speaker building experts would disagree and there have been passive vs active crossover debates before.

btw, I have a active 3-way design so I know what the potential can be but I would build matching passive crossovers in a heart beat IF I COULD!!

The truth behind bi-wired speakers is that the people who build bi-wired speakers know that there is a certain truth that certain buyers will not choose to buy speakers that can not be bi-wired.Oooh. It must be a secret. ;)

Could the secret be that it's a whole lot easier to spend $1.25 on another pair of jacks and a few inches of wire than it is to educate some people?

I use bare copper 10g wire to bi-wire my Realistic 4" speakers (Radio Shack put out the goods in the day). I spritz the wires with buttermilk every so often to improve the dynamic range. Glad to help.

Only use the buttermilk on the ground side wires! You have to use a mix of Noel Lee and Bruce Brisson urine if you want realism. A good substitute is Robert Lee mixed with Ray Kimber for a softer image or from an obese virgin drunk on Bombay Sapphire (no lime) if you can stand the added silibance. A small spray on the positive wire only is the way to go.

Only use the buttermilk on the ground side wires! You have to use a mix of Noel Lee and Bruce Brisson urine if you want realism. A good substitute is Robert Lee mixed with Ray Kimber for a softer image or from an obese virgin drunk on Bombay Sapphire (no lime) if you can stand the added silibance. A small spray on the positive wire only is the way to go.

yep. watch out for that silibance:eek:; it'll gitcha every time!:cool:

yep. watch out for that silibance:eek:; it'll gitcha every time!:cool:Tell me about it, one day the sound is sexy and wild, the next moody and introspective then later the same day, playful and alive. A whole mishmash of personalities that Sybilance.

Thank you for the additional tips. I'm going to set up an array of spray bottles and do some blind listening tests while my 3 and 5 year old girls apply various compounds until we hit the "sweet" spot!

Thank you for the additional tips. I'm going to set up an array of spray bottles and do some blind listening tests while my 3 and 5 year old girls apply various compounds until we hit the "sweet" spot!

If you really want to hit the sweet spot, you should perform double blind tasting instead.

.... if you can stand the added silibance.

yep. watch out for that silibance

A whole mishmash of personalities that Sybilance.

Very funny stuff guys :D....except that not one of you spelled "sibilance" correctly.http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n181/Yosh70/wtf.gif

Very funny stuff guys :D....except that not one of you spelled "sibilance" correctly.http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n181/Yosh70/wtf.gif
oh yes. we did.:)

we weren't trying to spell sibilance.

http://theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf (#7)

Very funny stuff guys :D....except that not one of you spelled "sibilance" correctly.http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n181/Yosh70/wtf.gif

Sillybance. There is that better?