Since Pioneer is not going to sell Plasma's anymore . I have my mind set on PDP-5020FD or Panasonic TH-50PZ850U. I am more leaning towards Kuro but the price of Kuro comes to same as Sony Bravia W-Series KDL-52W4100.

Out of these which is good tv and offers good value for my money :)

if your looking for a good 50" and money isnt an issue go with the kuro but its your decision. there isnt that big of a price difference between the two if you buy online.many people of posted the same question. do a search see what others have suggested.

i was in the same position as you, and today i finally purchased a kuro from amazon, but i did make several trips to best buy to compare the 2 tvs in person

Pioneer is the best TV for any amount of money:D

I would like to stay under my budget if I can dont want to go to overboard with it.

Since Pioneer is not going to sell Plasma's anymore . I have my mind set on PDP-5020FD or Panasonic TH-50PZ850U. I am more leaning towards Kuro but the price of Kuro comes to same as Sony Bravia W-Series KDL-52W4100.

Out of these which is good tv and offers good value for my money :)If you can afford the Kuro, just get it. I just spent Saturday setting one up for my best friend and i'm in awe of it's picture quality. I scrutinized it on all of my favorite and familiar channels and fell in love with it. It's definitely a level up from the Panasonic and i do think it's worth the extra cost if you value picture quality. Get one while you can!

I am more leaning towards Kuro but the price of Kuro comes to same as Sony Bravia W-Series KDL-52W4100.



you say that like the sony is better than the kuro...? HA :rolleyes:

go for the kuro! Hands down the prettiest monitor I have seen. even from only a foot ot two away it is amazing. go look for yourself! Don't waste time on the LCD.

I say purchase within this order:

1. Pioneer 5020FD
2. Panasonic 50PZ800
3. Samsung 50A650
4. LG 50PG60

These are among the best right now. If you are not in a rush you should wait and consider the Panasonic TC-P50V1, that should be released end of March/April/May sometime around there. Should give the 5020FD a run for its money. Although preliminary visual assessment says that the 5020FD has deeper blacks. With all else being equal the 50V1 should be a nice alternative.

Chris

I'm in a similar boat, only it is the 5020 vs the 50g10 vs the 58pz800. I can order the Kuro today if I want to.....

simply the best plasma out right now and at amazon's price you really shouldn't wait. i went from panny to pionner with a 6071. then sold that and got the 141fd. i'll never look back. panasonic may be catching up but they are not there yet!

Amazon has Kuro for Pioneer PDP-5020FD and Sony
Sony KDL-52W4100 Bravia 52” W4100 LCD Television is for $1599.99.

Only thing I am worried about getting Pioneer is if something goes wrong who will fix it .

Pioneer is still in business and will honor the warranty.

Amazon has Kuro for Pioneer PDP-5020FD and Sony
Sony KDL-52W4100 Bravia 52” W4100 LCD Television is for $1599.99.

Only thing I am worried about getting Pioneer is if something goes wrong who will fix it .

Well, As of right now Pioneer will fix it.
They just stopped making TV's, they didn't go out of buisness.

Of course, they could go out of buisness. But in this economy, noone is safe anyway.

I would get an extended warranty if you are worried.

Well, As of right now Pioneer will fix it.
They just stopped making TV's, they didn't go out of buisness.

Of course, they could go out of buisness. But in this economy, noone is safe anyway.

I would get an extended warranty if you are worried.

Of course, the EW company could go out of business too. Likely, there are plenty of Tweeter EWs out there that are not going to be honored.

I know Pioneer has bets blacks and not good whites. Can Kuro be calibrated to display better whites .
When I was BB, I couldn't get the Kuro to brighten up as it was so dim.

smartguy, you have to realize what an accurate white is. The bright whites of an LCD are NOT ACCURATE. If you think of a piece of paper, or a t-shirt, or an ice rink, or snow, does it shine at you like a flash light? No, it doesn't. The kuro offers a very lifelife picture, If you like an overly bright image go with an LCD.

on top of what the last poster said, to answer your question YES you can make it brighter by having it calibrated via the isfccc mode

I know Pioneer has bets blacks and not good whites. Can Kuro be calibrated to display better whites .
When I was BB, I couldn't get the Kuro to brighten up as it was so dim.

on top of what the last poster said, to answer your question YES you can make it brighter by having it calibrated via the isfccc mode

There is not isfcc mode on the 5020 right?

I know Pioneer has bets blacks and not good whites. Can Kuro be calibrated to display better whites .
When I was BB, I couldn't get the Kuro to brighten up as it was so dim.

I don't think so. That's one of the flaws of PDP technology. However, Panasonic is set to introduce some plasma displays that are darker and brighter.

My fault i did not read that he was asking about the non elite, no the non elite do not have isf ccc mode, I do got to ask whats not bright enouh of the pioneers? i have an elite that is NOT calibrated and the whites look white enought.

OP did you go to SPORT mode? or optinum or performance?

i find it VERY VERY hard to believe that this is not bright enough,

i had to dial down to very dim standard or pure dim to watch it as those other bright bright is not accuratetly bright and its too much

Of course, the EW company could go out of business too. Likely, there are plenty of Tweeter EWs out there that are not going to be honored.


Not all together true...Tweeter's EW are handled by a second party..who,to my undertstanding,will honor Tweeter's EWs..I had occasion to work with them in the past....and they are,IMO,A number 1.

having seen a kuro in a dim lit room at a local brick and mortar, i was impressed. just not as impressed as i thought i would be. i thought i was going to see bezel matching blacks and that wasnt the case. it was close but no cigar. my current plasma can match bezel blacks from illusion with the kitchen light on in the other room. there was also a 60" elite parked out in the front of the store with all the windows open and i must say it was a horrific experience. that gigantic screen was catching every bit of light. i guess people are accurate in saying the elite kuros are the best flat panels out there from a technical standpoint. im sure once calibrated the picture would be amazing, but the black levels, the selling point of this set, are completely overblown by members of this forum. imo, its just not enough to pay the premium over the set i already have. especially with infinite contrast sets just around the corner.

having seen a kuro in a dim lit room at a local brick and mortar, i was impressed. just not as impressed as i thought i would be. i thought i was going to see bezel matching blacks and that wasnt the case. it was close but no cigar. my current plasma can match bezel blacks from illusion with the kitchen light on in the other room. there was also a 60" elite parked out in the front of the store with all the windows open and i must say it was a horrific experience. that gigantic screen was catching every bit of light. i guess people are accurate in saying the elite kuros are the best flat panels out there from a technical standpoint. im sure once calibrated the picture would be amazing, but the black levels, the selling point of this set, are completely overblown by members of this forum. imo, its just not enough to pay the premium over the set i already have. especially with infinite contrast sets just around the corner.

what set do you have?

first of all their is no "infinite contrast" around the corner as pioneer is not going to make tvs anymore therefore ecc and 0 idle lumes forget about it.

dont even say about other companies as they are years away from pioneer in tv technology/quality.

And last I always see bezel frame blacks when i watch my elite at night, its NOT even calibrated.

you didnt see it because their was ambient light in the store

having seen a kuro in a dim lit room at a local brick and mortar, i was impressed. just not as impressed as i thought i would be. i thought i was going to see bezel matching blacks and that wasnt the case. it was close but no cigar. my current plasma can match bezel blacks from illusion with the kitchen light on in the other room. there was also a 60" elite parked out in the front of the store with all the windows open and i must say it was a horrific experience. that gigantic screen was catching every bit of light. i guess people are accurate in saying the elite kuros are the best flat panels out there from a technical standpoint. im sure once calibrated the picture would be amazing, but the black levels, the selling point of this set, are completely overblown by members of this forum. imo, its just not enough to pay the premium over the set i already have. especially with infinite contrast sets just around the corner.

Bezel blacks require at least a small amount of ambient light to acheive (bias lighting works well). No current display can truly blend blacks into the bezel with dark content on the screen.

Pioneer is the best TV for any amount of money:D

Wrong. Compare them side by side. Panasonic has better image processing. I wrote a comparison review elsewhere, so I cannot be bothered repeating it, but, the bottom line is, the Pio has a few % better blacks, but the Panny has noticeably better detail. I noticed detail free areas on 'Oprah's knitted jumper viewed on the Pio, but the Panny displayed all this detail perfectly.

Don't be fooled, look for your self.

Money is no object for me, and I walked out of the store with a Panny 50PZ850 - It looked better.

I recommend you wait for the new model Pannys.

Wrong. Compare them side by side.

I did, for quite some time. I looked at the 800, though, not the 850, which is actually a bit less accurate.

The Panasonic was a great display, but it couldn't quite match the Kuro for contrast and depth. I did not find one to be clearly better in terms of detail, they were both excellent.

[QUOTE=smartguy;15831365]Since Pioneer is not going to sell Plasma's anymore . I have my mind set on PDP-5020FD or Panasonic TH-50PZ850U. I am more leaning towards Kuro but the price of Kuro comes to same as Sony Bravia W-Series KDL-52W4100.

Out of these which is good tv and offers good value for my money :)[/QUOTE

I own a EURO version of the Panny 50PZ850, and it has better picture detail and motion handling than the Pio 50LX508 I compared side by side.

Compare them yourself.

BTW - SONY has not yet fixed their motion lag issues - they have merely disquised them - I watched a new 200Hz SONY TV, and after 15minutes I noticed left - right panning judder.

Pio 50LX508

What is the US equivalent to this model?

Ok, I looked it up, and for starters the LX508 looks like an 8G panel. The 9Gs are a definite step-up. I've not yet found what other differences there are, if any.

pepster sorry but its been proven that pioneer elite WILL have better motion resolution, beter image detail better processing,... panasonic is behind PERIOD.

Also you compared the 8th generation pioneer not the current and last 9th generation...

HUGE HUGE HUGE diffrence. 8th gen = 2007 9th gen = 2008 but like i said pioneer is still the king of tv in picture quality and that includes proceesing image details motion best blacks and other things that add up

Wrong. Compare them side by side. Panasonic has better image processing. I wrote a comparison review elsewhere, so I cannot be bothered repeating it, but, the bottom line is, the Pio has a few % better blacks, but the Panny has noticeably better detail. I noticed detail free areas on 'Oprah's knitted jumper viewed on the Pio, but the Panny displayed all this detail perfectly.

Don't be fooled, look for your self.

Money is no object for me, and I walked out of the store with a Panny 50PZ850 - It looked better.

I recommend you wait for the new model Pannys.

Panasonic has less panel generated noise in the picture and more uniform blacks. Very important features.

Panasonic has less panel generated noise in the picture and more uniform blacks. Very important features.

Agree on the panel noise but I don't think the black uniformity on the Kuros is a significant problem. It's only visible on a fully black screen and just barely even then.

and it goes away as time passes with usuage of the tv

If you can afford the Kuro, just get it. I just spent Saturday setting one up for my best friend and i'm in awe of it's picture quality. I scrutinized it on all of my favorite and familiar channels and fell in love with it. It's definitely a level up from the Panasonic and i do think it's worth the extra cost if you value picture quality. Get one while you can!
I know for a fact Randy is a HUGE panny guy and if he says get a kuro, THEN GET A KURO!

Don't know when the new TC-P50V1 will be available , its same price as Kuro. I just don't want to buy anything and then regret it later.

Where does Panasonic Viera TH-50PZ85U stands in comparison to Kuro .

If I could not afford a Kuro id have a Panasonic....their plasmas are very nice.

buy the panny, no buy the kuro, no buy the panny, no buy the kuro........................................................ ............................................................ .
how many times will this question get asked? go see the both of them in person, then decide for YOURSELF what you think is the best.

first of all their is no "infinite contrast" around the corner as pioneer is not going to make tvs anymore therefore ecc and 0 idle lumes forget about it.

dont even say about other companies as they are years away from pioneer in tv technology/quality.

And last I always see bezel frame blacks when i watch my elite at night, its NOT even calibrated.

you didnt see it because their was ambient light in the store

first of all, I"LL be the one who determines what i will and will not say. second of all if you havent heard, panasonic intends on releasing neopdp eco in 2010. infinite contrast was not limited to pio only. so years a way just turned into one year for you. you can thank me later.:cool:

what set do you have?

panny 9uk

first of all, I"LL be the one who determines what i will and will not say. second of all if you havent heard, panasonic intends on releasing neopdp eco in 2010. infinite contrast was not limited to pio only. so years a way just turned into one year for you. you can thank me later.:cool:

And last year people were saying that we'd have it by now. Things change.

I'll be amongst the first to cheer the day that true infinite contrast arrives, whether it's this year or next decade. But until it's here and we can buy it, it's all speculation.

And last year people were saying that we'd have it by now. Things change.

I'll be amongst the first to cheer the day that true infinite contrast arrives, whether it's this year or next decade. But until it's here and we can buy it, it's all speculation.

Bingo. Let's make sure plasma survives for another year before we start speculating if/when the perfect TV arrives.

I like the look of the NeoPDP panels but I find some of Panasonic's claims somewhat dubious. Can't wait to hear if they live up to the hype.

Well Amazon doesn't have Kuro in stock anymore , I can get z85 or wait for pannys new model which will be almost same price as Kuro .

first of all their is no "infinite contrast" around the corner as pioneer is not going to make tvs anymore therefore ecc and 0 idle lumes forget about it.

dont even say about other companies as they are years away from pioneer in tv technology/quality.

And last I always see bezel frame blacks when i watch my elite at night, its NOT even calibrated.

you didnt see it because their was ambient light in the store
It was my understanding that the Infinite Contrast R & D programme was a joint venture between Panasonic,and Pioneer,and that the latter had transferred staff to Panasonic.
With Pioneer exiting TV,there is no reason to suppose that those transferred staff will not remain with Panasonic.
I have not seen any announcement from Panasonic that they are terminating the programme.
Panasonic's Viera range does not represent the sum total of their Plasma capabilites.
Their professional panel,TH-65VX100,is receiving excellent reviews in the UK.
It is stated that while it's black level is not as deep as that of the current Kuro range,it's shadow detail is superior.

It was my understanding that the Infinite Contrast R & D programme was a joint venture between Panasonic,and Pioneer,and that the latter had transferred staff to Panasonic.False. Pioneer and Panasonic have their own IC techniques. The only staff that was transferred to Panasonic from Pioneer were the production substrate engineers.

Well Amazon doesn't have Kuro in stock anymore , I can get z85 or wait for pannys new model which will be almost same price as Kuro .

Why not try Magnolias? Also, if you're going wait on a Panny, why not wait another year and get an Infinite contrast?

Well Amazon doesn't have Kuro in stock anymore , I can get z85 or wait for pannys new model which will be almost same price as Kuro .

There are still plenty of online authorized retailers that are still selling the Kuros at cheap prices.

I kind of worries me to buy TV from a company which is going to stop making them .

I should buy extended warrenty for this for sure. Can you name a few reputed vendors who are selling this cheaper than Amazon.

smart guy pioneer is NOT going out of business! they are just not going to be making tvs. BY law they have to have parts and can service your tv for years to come, in which something should be out to replace it (5+yrs)

bestbuys have it for sale so do our forum member sponsers such as roman o robert @ ve and so on.

the neo pdp are not the same legue as the pioneer, they are closer but not it. so why are you even trying to compare the current 50pz85u???? its not as good , its good but just not as good as pioneer.

whats the issue? price? brand??? its a better tv god...

Don't know when the new TC-P50V1 will be available , its same price as Kuro. I just don't want to buy anything and then regret it later.

Where does Panasonic Viera TH-50PZ85U stands in comparison to Kuro .


neo pdp are not sopposed to be infinite contrast nor they are sopposed to be at pioneer elite level.

first of all, I"LL be the one who determines what i will and will not say. second of all if you havent heard, panasonic intends on releasing neopdp eco in 2010. infinite contrast was not limited to pio only. so years a way just turned into one year for you. you can thank me later.:cool:


too much false info in your post, first the reason why that uk panasonic had more shadow detail was because panasonic change the spectrum for the gamma on the grayscale they just increase it like chaning from 2.0 2.1 2.2 and so on. the other part D-nice already answerd it

It was my understanding that the Infinite Contrast R & D programme was a joint venture between Panasonic,and Pioneer,and that the latter had transferred staff to Panasonic.
With Pioneer exiting TV,there is no reason to suppose that those transferred staff will not remain with Panasonic.
I have not seen any announcement from Panasonic that they are terminating the programme.
Panasonic's Viera range does not represent the sum total of their Plasma capabilites.
Their professional panel,TH-65VX100,is receiving excellent reviews in the UK.
It is stated that while it's black level is not as deep as that of the current Kuro range,it's shadow detail is superior.

first of all their is no "infinite contrast" around the corner as pioneer is not going to make tvs anymore therefore ecc and 0 idle lumes forget about it.

dont even say about other companies as they are years away from pioneer in tv technology/quality.

And last I always see bezel frame blacks when i watch my elite at night, its NOT even calibrated.

you didnt see it because their was ambient light in the store

What other companies are you in direct contact with that tell you what technology they are able to implement?

If by years you mean two you might be right.

Pioneer quality - lets see from forum topics I see: Pioneer buzzing displays - dead pixels

Pioneer is getting out of the TV business and they are clearing out parts. I believe that there is probably a lot of "B" stock floating out there for sale.

too much false info in your post, first the reason why that uk panasonic had more shadow detail was because panasonic change the spectrum for the gamma on the grayscale they just increase it like chaning from 2.0 2.1 2.2 and so on. the other part D-nice already answerd it
If the infomation,regarding the Panasonic's performance,is false,as you allege,then are you saying that professional reviewers are falsifying their results?
I have tried unsuccessfully to post full URLs,so,for anyone interested,the reviews on avforums,and homecinemachoice,make interesting reading.

smart guy pioneer is NOT going out of business! they are just not going to be making tvs. BY law they have to have parts and can service your tv for years to come, in which something should be out to replace it (5+yrs)

BY law is sort of a government with not teeth. California has one of the most strigent and you can get a wopping $500 fine. Anyone thinking of purchasing a Kuro and being comforted by "BY LAW" is in for a letdown.

Yesterday I called a Pioneer service center and said I wanted to buy a new plasma screen for a 60" Kuro. I was told that the screen cost was $3500 + labor and when she checked the Pioneer warehouse none were availabe or expected. I guess they hadn't heard of by law.

having seen a kuro in a dim lit room at a local brick and mortar, i was impressed. just not as impressed as i thought i would be. i thought i was going to see bezel matching blacks and that wasnt the case. it was close but no cigar. my current plasma can match bezel blacks from illusion with the kitchen light on in the other room. there was also a 60" elite parked out in the front of the store with all the windows open and i must say it was a horrific experience. that gigantic screen was catching every bit of light. i guess people are accurate in saying the elite kuros are the best flat panels out there from a technical standpoint. im sure once calibrated the picture would be amazing, but the black levels, the selling point of this set, are completely overblown by members of this forum. imo, its just not enough to pay the premium over the set i already have. especially with infinite contrast sets just around the corner.


well...you were at a brick and mortar store so...


I used to work at BB and the pioneers look terrible in the stores...but you dont watch tv on a store showroom do you. Once you get it home it is like a whole different experience. And the blacks will blend right into the frame a lot more than whatever tv you have now guaranteed.

I lol at people who base decisions on B&M stores...they are set up to sell LCDs.

BY law is sort of a government with not teeth. California has one of the most strigent and you can get a wopping $500 fine. Anyone thinking of purchasing a Kuro and being comforted by "BY LAW" is in for a letdown.

Yesterday I called a Pioneer service center and said I wanted to buy a new plasma screen for a 60" Kuro. I was told that the screen cost was $3500 + labor and when she checked the Pioneer warehouse none were availabe or expected. I guess they hadn't heard of by law.

If they don't have the parts available for a warranty service then they'd probably get you a new set.

If they don't have the parts available for a warranty service then they'd probably get you a new set.

Too bad they stopped making them :confused:

Too bad they stopped making them :confused:

They'll do something about it. I've heard that NEC still honors their plasma warranties and they've been out of the plasma business for a bit.

i have seen to many threads of this panny vs. pio thang. In the end it doesnt matter what we say. The viewer has to try to make the best decision possible with the information they have. I personally went with the kuro beacause i was able to verify what people here and what reviewers like D-nice said were true. But if people want to believe that LCDs have the best blacks or that DLPs have no viewing angle issues, who are we to stop them from being happy. I say this " I WILL LOVE MY KURO WHEN I GET IT" (2 more weeks guys WOOOT!!) But I wont hate what you get cause if you're happy with it i am pretty sure we'll be happy for you.

well...you were at a brick and mortar store so...


I used to work at BB and the pioneers look terrible in the stores...but you dont watch tv on a store showroom do you. Once you get it home it is like a whole different experience. And the blacks will blend right into the frame a lot more than whatever tv you have now guaranteed.

I lol at people who base decisions on B&M stores...they are set up to sell LCDs.

b&m stores are a far more accurate depiction than best buys. having owned a plasma for three years and tweaked endlessly, i know what to look for. the lighting condition is much better in these types of stores as they have the elites tucked away in a dark room. im not bashing the elite at all, its just worth ponying up that kind of cash for an upgrade. some people have sets that are more than 5 years old and i can see a justifiable upgrade. my 9uk is a stellar performer. wholeheartedly, i think its only a step behind the pios.

And last year people were saying that we'd have it by now. Things change.

I'll be amongst the first to cheer the day that true infinite contrast arrives, whether it's this year or next decade. But until it's here and we can buy it, it's all speculation.

its not speculation if it was clearly announced. what you can speculate on is wheter panasonic will be around next year. the way these plasma manufacturers are dropping out im suspecting to be heartbroken once again. from a marketing standpoint, panasonic has been light years ahead of pio. they simply appeal to the non-niche market or the average consumer with endless choices of models and prices. they have more cash for advertising also. at worst, panasonic could advertise the neopdpeco as a niche market set and still not go belly up from sales of their lower tiered plasmas still going strong.

False. Pioneer and Panasonic have their own IC techniques. The only staff that was transferred to Panasonic from Pioneer were the production substrate engineers.
Thank you for the information.
Do you know if this collaboration forms part of an overall R & D programme,and if so,what that programme relates to?

What other companies are you in direct contact with that tell you what technology they are able to implement?

If by years you mean two you might be right.

Pioneer quality - lets see from forum topics I see: Pioneer buzzing displays - dead pixels

Pioneer is getting out of the TV business and they are clearing out parts. I believe that there is probably a lot of "B" stock floating out there for sale.
In the UK,a,admittedly small,batch of KRP-As have suffered from power supply failure.
I was tempted to trade up from my LX608,but,for me the PQ is so good,I decided not to.

its not speculation if it was clearly announced.

Sorry, I've seen enough promises made by manufacturers come to naught for one reason or another to know to take them with a healthy dose of salt.

Again, I'll believe it when I can go to the store and buy it.

I say purchase within this order:

1. Pioneer 5020FD
2. Panasonic 50PZ800
3. Samsung 50A650
4. LG 50PG60

These are among the best right now. If you are not in a rush you should wait and consider the Panasonic TC-P50V1, that should be released end of March/April/May sometime around there. Should give the 5020FD a run for its money. Although preliminary visual assessment says that the 5020FD has deeper blacks. With all else being equal the 50V1 should be a nice alternative.

Chris

Since technology marches on and things get better every year, I think waiting to see the 2009 Panny's first hand might make sense. Some of the models will be available in the not too distant future.

I have the 5020 and am reluctantly keeping it. It definitely has the best blacks and the least noise among the top tier plasmas. But, the 5020 is dim in comparison. Videophiles seem to prefer dog turds as long as they are "accurate". Other people prefer pop and could give two ^%^$# about accuracy.
I could not get my hands on a remote today at the Magnolia show room to prove to these donkeys that the elites were in movie mode. They had a baseball game on and had a Sammy and a Panny next to two elites. The grass on the elites looked dead and brown and the others were actually green and the whites were basically embarrassing on the elites in comparison. The text on the elites was blurry as hell, which I find typical of movie mode.

Now I know the elites would have been much brighter, crisper, and whiter in another mode, but as they were setup, it looked like an angry gang of monkeys came by and started smearing poo on the elites.

But what did get me was how very white the whites were on the Sammy and Panny. I really don't care to hear one more kurophile tell me "well they are not accurate whites". There are far far too many people that share the same opinion regarding Kuro whites. You can get the kuros pretty damn bright and you can also clean the whites up a pretty good amount but they still don't quite get there for me.

Kuros are great sets for videophiles that are more concerned with accuracy and have a preference towards less is more. It is just a fact of life that there are different strokes for different folks. I like more gamma and whiter whites. I miss them terribly.

So what would my alternatives be? I would probably purchase a PN50A550 and save a $1000 ($1,600 now) and get as good or better everything but blacks. The pannys are very nice but my eyes seem to catch a lot more noise on them for some reason.

The LN52A650 and the W series also hold their own. They do in fact have a more artificial look and the black levels are not in the same ball park. But Motion flow does smooth out pans far better than any of the plasmas I have tried out.

Tough call dude. At $2k I would still prolly go Kuro but at $2.5k? No friggin way. Save buku bucks and snag a PN50A550. Just be more careful of IR. It is more susceptible than the 5020.

Auditor, did you get the 5020 yet? What do you think?

The Elites can be made to shine brighter than the Non-Elites, you know. Of course, you have to pay more for that extra shine.

I have the 5020 and am reluctantly keeping it. It definitely has the best blacks and the least noise among the top tier plasmas. But, the 5020 is dim in comparison. Videophiles seem to prefer dog turds as long as they are "accurate". Other people prefer pop and could give two ^%^$# about accuracy.
I could not get my hands on a remote today at the Magnolia show room to prove to these donkeys that the elites were in movie mode. They had a baseball game on and had a Sammy and a Panny next to two elites. The grass on the elites looked dead and brown and the others were actually green and the whites were basically embarrassing on the elites in comparison. The text on the elites was blurry as hell, which I find typical of movie mode.

Now I know the elites would have been much brighter, crisper, and whiter in another mode, but as they were setup, it looked like an angry gang of monkeys came by and started smearing poo on the elites.

But what did get me was how very white the whites were on the Sammy and Panny. I really don't care to hear one more kurophile tell me "well they are not accurate whites". There are far far too many people that share the same opinion regarding Kuro whites. You can get the kuros pretty damn bright and you can also clean the whites up a pretty good amount but they still don't quite get there for me.

Kuros are great sets for videophiles that are more concerned with accuracy and have a preference towards less is more. It is just a fact of life that there are different strokes for different folks. I like more gamma and whiter whites. I miss them terribly.

So what would my alternatives be? I would probably purchase a PN50A550 and save a $1000 ($1,600 now) and get as good or better everything but blacks. The pannys are very nice but my eyes seem to catch a lot more noise on them for some reason.

The LN52A650 and the W series also hold their own. They do in fact have a more artificial look and the black levels are not in the same ball park. But Motion flow does smooth out pans far better than any of the plasmas I have tried out.

Tough call dude. At $2k I would still prolly go Kuro but at $2.5k? No friggin way. Save buku bucks and snag a PN50A550. Just be more careful of IR. It is more susceptible than the 5020.

Auditor, did you get the 5020 yet? What do you think?

I went from a PN50A550 to a 5020FD and I can tell you first hand, don't get the Sammy if you want a bright display. The only edge (besides price) the 550 has is semi-accurate color out of the box, and the ability to dial them in perfectly with a pro calibration. In terms of contrast ratio, meaning ultimate brightness and black, the Kuro has it in the bag.

Also the AR coating on the Sammy tended to wash out quickly with ambient light. The Kuro is only slighter better however.

If brighter whites are important to you, I recommend you check out the (gasp) LCD section of this forum.

The Elites can be made to shine brighter than the Non-Elites, you know. Of course, you have to pay more for that extra shine.

For sure.

Here are some pics of my 5020 up against an $800 Vizio. The Kuro definately outshines, but not nearly as much as I would have suspected. My friend that owened the Vizio razzed me pretty good. Aside from the black levels the Visio was right there. The colors were much richer on the 5020 (almost too rich? Color is set to -1 on the Kuro) and the Vizio looks a little washed out. But you can actually see the wolfs face on teh Vizio. I found several instances where details were lost in black on the Kuro. And this was in Performance mode with brightness at +2 and contrast at 37.

The 5020 in these pics has a calibrated grey scale with PC off. I did have to put it in Performance mode jst to get close to the brightness of the Vizio (which I liked). And the Vizio had backlight and brightness dialed way down. I also had the luxury of total color control on the Vizio that allowed me to match up almost perfectly to the 5020.

These pics are not intended to show PQ, just the difference in gamma. These pics are crude and the 5020 is not in the proper mode to show PQ. With that said, the difference in brightness becomes even greater when in a normal viewing mode.

more Vizio Vs 5020 Pics. The white on the birds chest is the white issue so many people have with the Kuro. Cheap, inaccurate, what have you, the Vizio is much "whiter" and it isn't even an LCD. Again, calibrated gray scale on the 5020.

Couple more. The Vizio displayed these ripples in photos unlike the 5020. Must have to do with anti-reflective coating maybe?

In a few of those pictures the Vizio looks better, especially the wolf one where the grey is pretty much black, which is obviously isn't supposed to. Of course pictures are worthless to show off PQ.

In a few of those pictures the Vizio looks better, especially the wolf one where the grey is pretty much black, which is obviously isn't supposed to. Of course pictures are worthless to show off PQ.

Agree to an extent. These photos reflect much more accurately than you would think. The photos ring true to what my eyes saw for the most part. But yeah, I hear you.

For sure.

Here are some pics of my 5020 up against an $800 Vizio. The Kuro definately outshines, but not nearly as much as I would have suspected. My friend that owened the Vizio razzed me pretty good. Aside from the black levels the Visio was right there.

The 5020 in these pics has a calibrated grey scale with PC off. I did have to put it in Performance mode jst to get close to the brightness of the Vizio (which I liked). And the Vizio had backlight and brightness dialed way down. I also had the luxury of total color control on the Vizio that allowed me to match up almost perfectly to the 5020.

I agree. People on this forum speak so passionately about their favorite brands you would think the quality difference is night and day between brands.

I think this is partly the reason why the TV market has become so commodized these days. The quality gap is getting smaller and smaller. I mean some of the topics on this forum are about black level comparisons of .006 vs .002. :p The average consumer probably CAN see the difference between a vizio and kuro, but they're not willing to pay 3X for it. Of course we're not the average consumer :P

Couple more. The Vizio displayed these ripples in photos unlike the 5020. Must have to do with anti-reflective coating maybe?

Hard to tell from the pics, but it appears the Kuro is clipping black detail. Whats the brightness set to? Was a pluge pattern used?

I agree. People on this forum speak so passionately about their favorite brands you would think the quality difference is night and day between brands.

I think this is partly the reason why the TV market has become so commodized these days. The quality gap is getting smaller and smaller. I mean some of the topics on this forum are about black level comparisons of .006 vs .002. :p The average consumer probably CAN see the difference between a vizio and kuro, but they're not willing to pay 3X for it.

And based on those photo comparisons, not all the differences will be in kuro's favor.

you can immediately tell the difference in contrast and brightness on the vizio. as far as blacks and color, the kuro wins hands down. i just hope these 5 and 10 lumen tech plasmas can take care of the brightness and white level issues with plasma. seems they are starting to roll in as we speak. someone go friggin buy one!

And based on those photo comparisons, not all the differences will be in kuro's favor.

Yeah, because what appear to be somewhat fuzzy cell phone pics viewed on an LCD PC monitor clearly constitute the best possible basis for a detailed analysis of plasma picture quality, right?

more Vizio Vs 5020 Pics. The white on the birds chest is the white issue so many people have with the Kuro. Cheap, inaccurate, what have you, the Vizio is much "whiter" and it isn't even an LCD. Again, calibrated gray scale on the 5020.Those photos remind me of the differences I've seen between the Samsung A450/Panasonic PX80U (brighter) and the new Panasonic P50X1 (dimmer).

I know, I know -- they're lowly 720p sets. So is the Pioneer 5080.

Yeah, because what appear to be somewhat fuzzy cell phone pics viewed on an LCD PC monitor clearly constitute the best possible basis for a detailed analysis of plasma picture quality, right?

LOL yeah your right. They definately look like cell phone pics. I gots to get me one of those 10mp cell phones. Seriously, there is no detailed analysis going on here, just some quick pics that verify IMO what I saw with my own two eyes. They are fuzzy because I was simply pausing Directv. I own the 5020, so why would I bash it for no reason? Yes, the pics are crude. I was not planning on taking the time for quality shots. This was not an official review of any kind. I had the Vizio there to confirm some artifact issues I was having. I just shot some quick shots to confirm what I saw.

Once again, I had a calibrated gray scale with PC off and was in Performance mode in an attemt to match the brightness of the Vizio. Brightness was at +2 and contrast at 37 and Color at -1. In movie mode the brightness difference was huge and text was much blurrier on the 5020 IMO.

LOL yeah your right. They definately look like cell phone pics. I gots to get me one of those 10mp cell phones. There is no detailed analysis going on here, just some quick pics that verify IMO what I saw with my own two eyes. I own the 5020, so why would I bash it for no reason? Get real lil dude.

Sorry, I didn't intend to criticize your photography skills, equipment or observations - call it collateral damage, I guess.

The quoted individual has a compulsive need to jump into any thread referencing Pioneer to bash the product, always without any factual and/or scientific basis. To the point where many of us feel like zoo employees forced to deal with a screeching monkey who does nothing but throw poop all day long.

The quoted individual has a compulsive need to jump into any thread referencing Pioneer to bash the product, always without any factual and/or scientific basis. To the point where many of us feel like zoo employees forced to deal with a screeching monkey who does nothing but throw poop all day long.
haha, disco down!

Sorry, I didn't intend to criticize your photography skills, equipment or observations - call it collateral damage, I guess.

The quoted individual has a compulsive need to jump into any thread referencing Pioneer to bash the product, always without any factual and/or scientific basis. To the point where many of us feel like zoo employees forced to deal with a screeching monkey who does nothing but throw poop all day long.

Good stuff. I'll buy that. I wasn't bashing Pioneer though. Only saying it is a bit dim compared to several other sets. What I should say is that I love the 5020 for the most part. It has the least things wrong with it. But there are some things that myself and apparently many others do not love about it. Good reply though. Props to you.

For sure.


The 5020 in these pics has a calibrated grey scale with PC off. I did have to put it in Performance mode jst to get close to the brightness of the Vizio (which I liked).

Topper,
Not trying to tell you what you should like or dislike or even change your opinion. But I do have to say, that even considering the drawbacks of trying to judge PQ from a photo, those are some of the worst screen shots I have seen of the 5020 (I'm not referring to your photography skills, rather the PQ)

I've found that the Perf mode other than brightness, leaves much to be desired. You will lose dark detail. If you want something brighter than Movie mode, try Game mode. It is not quite as bright as Perf, but will rectify the issues you mention in the first group of screen shots.

Another thing: if you continually do side by sides to brighter sets, you will always dislike the Pioneer. Your eye will be drawn to the brighter picture making the other look dim...whether it is or not. Adjust game mode, and try it out for a while. By itself. It will improve the whites. You will see the shadow detail you are missing. If you don't, there is something terribly wrong with that set. You do not have to live with those crushed blacks. BTW, I can also find fault in some of the Vizio screen shots. It is easy to see where there is loss of detail in white/bright areas due to the brightness.

Oh yeah, stop torturing yourself.

Just curious: Did you 1) apply D-Nice offsets, 2) calibrate yourself or 3) have a pro calibration done?

Topper,

Just curious: Did you 1) apply D-Nice offsets, 2) calibrate yourself or 3) have a pro calibration done?

I applied Dnice offsets.

And I totaly agree about everything you mentioned. The Vizio shows several issues and the 5020 was definatley in the wrong mode fro PQ. I tried to be clear about what I was doing but looking back I see I could have used different wording and cautions. And some of my comments should not have been based on that setup.

So yes, I actually use Game mode and sometimes standard and those pictures do not and should not be used as examples of PQ. They were simply quick shots that showed the gamma difference even with the 5020 in one of its ultra-bright modes.

When I went to Game mode, the detail was better than in performance but even more dim in comparison. I still do not understand movie mode. It must be my brain circuitry, becuase I swear evrything gets blury and drab even after offset settings. I really like game mode very much.

When all is said and done, I only maintain that the 5020 is quite dim. That and PC with 1080i, but that is another story that I can live with. Overall, that is a very short list of negatives for any set.

And almost forgot, the whites are that different regardless of being in Perf mode. I stand by my feelings on the whites. Those pics are accurate in that regard.

Every set in the Magnolias was far brighter than the Pioneers and they looked good while brighter for the most part. I still see tons of noise on the 60" pannys and more than I like on the 50's.

b&m stores are a far more accurate depiction than best buys. having owned a plasma for three years and tweaked endlessly, i know what to look for. the lighting condition is much better in these types of stores as they have the elites tucked away in a dark room. im not bashing the elite at all, its just worth ponying up that kind of cash for an upgrade. some people have sets that are more than 5 years old and i can see a justifiable upgrade. my 9uk is a stellar performer. wholeheartedly, i think its only a step behind the pios.

I have a 509UK, 657UY, 5020, and next week a 500M (EU model Pioneer 9G).
I think I have a handle on what these displays can do. I would say the black level performance puts the Pioneer way ahead in the black-level realm. I do not think that can be argued.

The 9UK is in a vacation home, but I did prefer its color rendition to my 657UY. I had a plan to get a 600M to replace my 65 this year, but my wife just could not go down a size. It is interesting though, my 65 is now about 5 years old gets about 6 hours of use per day and it is a beast. No degradation, no image retention and pretty damn bright.

I do notice different side effects in the screen too. Panasonic has more banding when you have a bright area in the middle like a green preview screen the white box darkens the green areas along the top and bottom. Not a big deal since I do not see it with content.

The Pioneer has more Noise in the whites, again, I have to look for it and I do not notice it while watching content.

I want to upgrade the 65 this year, but I wonder if that makes sense with NeoPDP Eco on the horizon.

Perhaps there will be a ridiculously overpriced 65VX200 with NeoPDP ECO technology later this year :p

- Rich

I have the 5020 and am reluctantly keeping it. It definitely has the best blacks and the least noise among the top tier plasmas. But, the 5020 is dim in comparison. Videophiles seem to prefer dog turds as long as they are "accurate". Other people prefer pop and could give two ^%^$# about accuracy.
I could not get my hands on a remote today at the Magnolia show room to prove to these donkeys that the elites were in movie mode. They had a baseball game on and had a Sammy and a Panny next to two elites. The grass on the elites looked dead and brown and the others were actually green and the whites were basically embarrassing on the elites in comparison. The text on the elites was blurry as hell, which I find typical of movie mode.

Now I know the elites would have been much brighter, crisper, and whiter in another mode, but as they were setup, it looked like an angry gang of monkeys came by and started smearing poo on the elites.

But what did get me was how very white the whites were on the Sammy and Panny. I really don't care to hear one more kurophile tell me "well they are not accurate whites". There are far far too many people that share the same opinion regarding Kuro whites. You can get the kuros pretty damn bright and you can also clean the whites up a pretty good amount but they still don't quite get there for me.

Kuros are great sets for videophiles that are more concerned with accuracy and have a preference towards less is more. It is just a fact of life that there are different strokes for different folks. I like more gamma and whiter whites. I miss them terribly.

So what would my alternatives be? I would probably purchase a PN50A550 and save a $1000 ($1,600 now) and get as good or better everything but blacks. The pannys are very nice but my eyes seem to catch a lot more noise on them for some reason.

The LN52A650 and the W series also hold their own. They do in fact have a more artificial look and the black levels are not in the same ball park. But Motion flow does smooth out pans far better than any of the plasmas I have tried out.

Tough call dude. At $2k I would still prolly go Kuro but at $2.5k? No friggin way. Save buku bucks and snag a PN50A550. Just be more careful of IR. It is more susceptible than the 5020.

Auditor, did you get the 5020 yet? What do you think?

Yep. The Kuro is a nice set, but what I knew even before I purchased it, its far from perfect, so I'm not disappointed. The Kuro, doesn't do anything to take away from my desire to see the emergence of a new display technology without the flaws we nitpick about on a daily basis on this forum.

I have the 5020 and am reluctantly keeping it. It definitely has the best blacks and the least noise among the top tier plasmas. But, the 5020 is dim in comparison. Videophiles seem to prefer dog turds as long as they are "accurate". Other people prefer pop and could give two ^%^$# about accuracy.
I could not get my hands on a remote today at the Magnolia show room to prove to these donkeys that the elites were in movie mode. They had a baseball game on and had a Sammy and a Panny next to two elites. The grass on the elites looked dead and brown and the others were actually green and the whites were basically embarrassing on the elites in comparison. The text on the elites was blurry as hell, which I find typical of movie mode.

Now I know the elites would have been much brighter, crisper, and whiter in another mode, but as they were setup, it looked like an angry gang of monkeys came by and started smearing poo on the elites.

But what did get me was how very white the whites were on the Sammy and Panny. I really don't care to hear one more kurophile tell me "well they are not accurate whites". There are far far too many people that share the same opinion regarding Kuro whites. You can get the kuros pretty damn bright and you can also clean the whites up a pretty good amount but they still don't quite get there for me.

Kuros are great sets for videophiles that are more concerned with accuracy and have a preference towards less is more. It is just a fact of life that there are different strokes for different folks. I like more gamma and whiter whites. I miss them terribly.

So what would my alternatives be? I would probably purchase a PN50A550 and save a $1000 ($1,600 now) and get as good or better everything but blacks. The pannys are very nice but my eyes seem to catch a lot more noise on them for some reason.

The LN52A650 and the W series also hold their own. They do in fact have a more artificial look and the black levels are not in the same ball park. But Motion flow does smooth out pans far better than any of the plasmas I have tried out.

Tough call dude. At $2k I would still prolly go Kuro but at $2.5k? No friggin way. Save buku bucks and snag a PN50A550. Just be more careful of IR. It is more susceptible than the 5020.

Auditor, did you get the 5020 yet? What do you think?

I still say you should have gone with the Elite. If lots of pop is your thing it would have gotten you closer. What's an extra few hundred dollars if you'd have been far happier?

Topper,

Reason I asked about your calibration is:

Just recently, don't know if you caught it, D-Nice came across a 5020 that did not fit the 'mold' for color offsets. It was the first he had seen that was bluer.
Posted offsets would not be optimal for this particular TV....just a thought.

You may have a set that strays from the average. I know it sounds like a PIA, but you may benefit from a calibration more than most. I would really consider it.

Topper,

Reason I asked about your calibration is:

Just recently, don't know if you caught it, D-Nice came across a 5020 that did not fit the 'mold' for color offsets. It was the first he had seen that was bluer.
Posted offsets would not be optimal for this particular TV....just a thought.

You may have a set that strays from the average. I know it sounds like a PIA, but you may benefit from a calibration more than most. I would really consider it.

Interesting, thanks John. I may explore that further.

Topper
How dim is Kuro when watching regular non hd content , I noticied the same thing when I saw Kuro among other sets at Magnolia that it was lot dimmer compared to the other sets .
I am not a videophile who wants everything being watched to be perfect , no tv is perfect as long as it has ok flaws that fine considering the price people pay for these Kuros including the extended warrenty .

One does have higher expectations from PQ of Kuro .

"TH-65VX100,is receiving excellent reviews in the UK.
It is stated that while it's black level is not as deep as that of the current Kuro range,it's shadow detail is superior."

D-nice,
Is there a link somewhere where you covered the shadow detail comparison? Or is your silence here due to not seeing/testing one?
thanks, JL

JL panasonic just change the gamma points like 2.0 2.1 2.2 etc on the spectrum so they can get further on.... besides that tv is too expensive and otherwise to me would not be comparable to the elite

smartguy, I too have been to a few different BB/Magnolias and noticed the same issues with the dimness of the Kuros, both regular and elites.

The thing that struck me at BB was the loop they show with the outside snowboarding scene - my immediate reaction is always its an overcast day on the Kuros, even though you can see the sky is all blue - something just doesn't look right. Then I look at the other tv's, Panasonic 850's, lcds, etc, and they don't look overcast - you immediately sees its a bright day.

I have a 9-year old Pioneer 505HD and though it doesn't have great black levels, its (still!) nicely bright in basic standard mode - I never get the overcast/sunny day confusion.

I am a Pioneer fan and would love to get a Kuro, particularly with the discounts right now, black levels, colors, etc. but am just having the hardest time getting past the dimness issue.

If some Kuro experts could assure me that the Elite brightness can be adjusted to equal other plasmas - then I would pull the trigger on that one.
If not, then I will probably go with one of the higher end Panasonics.

don't forget Apple TV

smartguy, I too have been to a few different BB/Magnolias and noticed the same issues with the dimness of the Kuros, both regular and elites.

The thing that struck me at BB was the loop they show with the outside snowboarding scene - my immediate reaction is always its an overcast day on the Kuros, even though you can see the sky is all blue - something just doesn't look right. Then I look at the other tv's, Panasonic 850's, lcds, etc, and they don't look overcast - you immediately sees its a bright day.

I have a 9-year old Pioneer 505HD and though it doesn't have great black levels, its (still!) nicely bright in basic standard mode - I never get the overcast/sunny day confusion.

I am a Pioneer fan and would love to get a Kuro, particularly with the discounts right now, black levels, colors, etc. but am just having the hardest time getting past the dimness issue.

If some Kuro experts could assure me that the Elite brightness can be adjusted to equal other plasmas - then I would pull the trigger on that one.
If not, then I will probably go with one of the higher end Panasonics.

This is EXACTLY my problem that I have been unable to articulate properly. Thanks so much for doing it for me. It seems you can have the blacks or the real sunny day look but not both.

Has anyone done a comparison between the Panasonic TH-65PZ850U and Kuro's Pro-151FD?

I am replacing a 70" Sony LCD with one of the above, but I'm torn in which way to go... The price difference is about $150.

My view distance is 13 feet and going to 60" from 70" makes me a bit nervous because I may miss resolution and detail from that distance? The 65" may not be as much of a shocker from 70"... Pros, Cons?

Any suggestions would be much appreciated! Thanks.

smartguy, I too have been to a few different BB/Magnolias and noticed the same issues with the dimness of the Kuros, both regular and elites.

The thing that struck me at BB was the loop they show with the outside snowboarding scene - my immediate reaction is always its an overcast day on the Kuros, even though you can see the sky is all blue - something just doesn't look right. Then I look at the other tv's, Panasonic 850's, lcds, etc, and they don't look overcast - you immediately sees its a bright day.

I have a 9-year old Pioneer 505HD and though it doesn't have great black levels, its (still!) nicely bright in basic standard mode - I never get the overcast/sunny day confusion.

I am a Pioneer fan and would love to get a Kuro, particularly with the discounts right now, black levels, colors, etc. but am just having the hardest time getting past the dimness issue.

If some Kuro experts could assure me that the Elite brightness can be adjusted to equal other plasmas - then I would pull the trigger on that one.
If not, then I will probably go with one of the higher end Panasonics.There is nothing dim about an Elite Kuro post calibration. Good luck on finding a plasma that can do 48fL peak white post calibration with a ruler flat grayscale and gamma... plus near perfect color points in the 60+ screen size range.

I don't get the stuff about kuros being dim. granted I have the 42" 8th gen model and unless the 9th gen somehow got dimmer there is NO WAY the display is dim.

Maybe people confuse image richness (mainly from the black level) with an image looking dim since there is no washout effect to it. I mean the higher you turn your black level the brighter an image appears from the washed out look. Or, maybe it is simply that the other displays that supposedly aren't as dim have a lower gamma setting thus making them seem brighter.

I don't get the stuff about kuros being dim. granted I have the 42" 8th gen model and unless the 9th gen somehow got dimmer there is NO WAY the display is dim.

Maybe people confuse image richness (mainly from the black level) with an image looking dim since there is no washout effect to it. I mean the higher you turn your black level the brighter an image appears from the washed out look. Or, maybe it is simply that the other displays that supposedly aren't as dim have a lower gamma setting thus making them seem brighter.

I had the same concern with my 8th gen 50" kuro before I bought it, when I saw it in the store it looked dim but in my home its not dim at all in fact its much brighter than my Sony 34XBR960 CRT hdtv.

There is nothing dim about an Elite Kuro post calibration. Good luck on finding a plasma that can do 48fL peak white post calibration with a ruler flat grayscale and gamma... plus near perfect color points in the 60+ screen size range.

D, many people are seeing this "overcast" issue. To me the picture seems realtively bright, but sunny days do not look like sunny days. Is it the settings at the Magnolias on the Elites?

Also, my 5020 looks like this as well even after cal. I have to think that the non-elites suffer from this "overcast" issue regardless. I am obviously not arguing your numbers, as I don't have an elite, I am just experiencing what many others also seem to be seeing.

The sky is very blue but people look like they are standing under a cloud. I just don't understand. And it should not take a professional cal for outdoor scenes to look like outdoor scenes. Maybe this has nothing to do with brightness and more to do with the filters?

Do you ever see what we are describing in any shape or form on a Pioneer 9G?

Do you ever see what we are describing in any shape or form on a Pioneer 9G?TVs are not designed to look like reality. They are ment to look and conform to standards. On the non-Elites, you have to use Movie mode if you want a ruler flat gamma. Movie mode peaks at 40fL posts calibration. 40fL is good for normal room lighting. 48fL is even better and can handle more room lighting.

For those people who think the Kuro's look dim, it could be because the power saving mode is set to on. When I looked at my 5080 in the store last year it looked dim also because the power saving mode was set to the default (ON) setting. When I turned it off it made a big difference. MY 5080 at home never has the contrast set to above 40 in the Movie mode or 30 in the User mode. It doesn't look dim and sunny days look like sunny days, hockey ice looks like hockey ice etc. I'm not sure if this years Kuros default to power save On or not but you might want to double check just to be sure. Good Luck

For those people who think the Kuro's look dim, it could be because the power saving mode is set to on. When I looked at my 5080 in the store last year it looked dim also because the power saving mode was set to the default (ON) setting. When I turned it off it made a big difference. MY 5080 at home never has the contrast set to above 40 in the Movie mode or 30 in the User mode. It doesn't look dim and sunny days look like sunny days, hockey ice looks like hockey ice etc. I'm not sure if this years Kuros default to power save On or not but you might want to double check just to be sure. Good Luck



Thanks GM1. Good thought but mine is off.

TVs are not designed to look like reality. They are ment to look and conform to standards.

When all is said and done, I guess you have people that want perfect accuracy and others like myself that want realism. I don't think either philosophy is better than the other. I would also not venture to say that TVs are not supposed to look realistic. This is not intended as an insult, it is just my opinion. As far as I am concerned many other less expensive sets look more realistic than a 5020 depending on the scene (sunny days). But you also give up the blacks. It's give and take.

Many Lehman’s have no idea if thier color is off a bit or not and most likely will never care. I happen to side with a growing number of individuals, who seem to have ##20's for the most part, that have this same issue.

I can't convince myself I am wrong when I stare at a wall of sets in a Magnolia showroom and the only two sets that look "overcast" are the Pioneers. I say this regardless of calibration.

And you need to be looking at side by sides to see this. If you are not, then you have no reference and you may very well think you have the same level of realism or brightness as these other sets.

Why on earth would I like an "accurate" baseball game that looks overcast on a sunny day over a more "realistic" but possibly less "accurate" picture?

I am convinced it is in the panels filter. Basically a sunglasses effect. I would actually put money on it. You can go as bright as the sun but you will never lose that layer of film that will alter your perception.

Lets just agree to disagree on this and accept that there are people out there that feel this way and should not be made to feel like an outcast because of that.

** When I go into defence mode, people get the feeling I am bashing the 5020 overall. I am not. I will start to add a discalimer to my posts. The 5020 is Awesome. THe PQ is outstanding. Sunny days do not look like sunny days. LOL

I'll bet that the Kuros you saw had power save mode enabled.

Gus,

"panasonic just change the gamma points like 2.0 2.1 2.2 etc on the spectrum so they can get further on.... besides that tv is too expensive and otherwise to me would not be comparable to the elite"


Does this mean that if you change the gamma points on the elite it too will generate gradations as well as this commercial panny? Has anyone ever tried this? Thanks, JL

Has anyone done a comparison between the Panasonic TH-65PZ850U and Kuro's Pro-151FD?

I am replacing a 70" Sony LCD with one of the above, but I'm torn in which way to go... The price difference is about $150.

My view distance is 13 feet and going to 60" from 70" makes me a bit nervous because I may miss resolution and detail from that distance? The 65" may not be as much of a shocker from 70"... Pros, Cons?

Any suggestions would be much appreciated! Thanks.

Anyone? This is the right thread(Panasonic Vs Kuro), to ask this right?

For those people who think the Kuro's look dim, it could be because the power saving mode is set to on. When I looked at my 5080 in the store last year it looked dim also because the power saving mode was set to the default (ON) setting. When I turned it off it made a big difference. MY 5080 at home never has the contrast set to above 40 in the Movie mode or 30 in the User mode. It doesn't look dim and sunny days look like sunny days, hockey ice looks like hockey ice etc. I'm not sure if this years Kuros default to power save On or not but you might want to double check just to be sure. Good Luck
In Movie Mode,on my LX608,the Contrast setting is 28.
Viewing the "sun" scenes in the Blu-ray version of "Sunshine",any brighter an image would result in seared eyeballs!

TopperMcFly,
since you are seeing what I am seeing, let me ask you, if you set your 5020 to movie mode (and/or increase contrast), do you feel the cloudy day look goes away?

By the way, I find your theory that the panels filter may be creating a sunglasses effect is very interesting - it might explain what we are seeing.

When all is said and done, I guess you have people that want perfect accuracy and others like myself that want realism. I don't think either philosophy is better than the other. I would also not venture to say that TVs are not supposed to look realistic. This is not intended as an insult, it is just my opinion. As far as I am concerned many other less expensive sets look more realistic than a 5020 depending on the scene (sunny days). But you also give up the blacks. It's give and take.Realism??? The correct terminology should be "real world" as "realism" would be based off a defined baseline. As I've said before, TVs are suppose to reflect the standards (SPMTE-C and Rec709 for NA), not the "real world".

Going further. we live in an 8-bit video world. NO TV on the market today will EVER come close to "real world" colors because the source data is STILL 8-bit. If you think they can, we can end this discussion immediately after this post as that is a fallacy I cannot and will not entertain.

I can't convince myself I am wrong when I stare at a wall of sets in a Magnolia showroom and the only two sets that look "overcast" are the Pioneers. I say this regardless of calibration.I don't judge, or care to judge, TVs in big box stores, including Magnolia. If you are actually doing this, that is your first problem and I recommend you stop it immediately.

And you need to be looking at side by sides to see this. If you are not, then you have no reference and you may very well think you have the same level of realism or brightness as these other sets.I do this all the time. The difference between you and I is that I actually do it at home in controlled environments with the proper equipment to verify what my eye tell me.

Why on earth would I like an "accurate" baseball game that looks overcast on a sunny day over a more "realistic" but possibly less "accurate" picture? Your issue isn't accuracy, it's brightness. It seems like 40fL isn't enough for you. I recommend you get an LCD and pray it can perform as well a Kuro when you set it to provide 60fL+ of peak brightness (the light output that probably would satisfy your needs).

I am convinced it is in the panels filter. Basically a sunglasses effect. I would actually put money on it. You can go as bright as the sun but you will never lose that layer of film that will alter your perception.How much are you willing to lose?

Having a calibrated 141, I can assure you that dimness is no issue at all. This set is as bright if not brighter than a 50" Panasonic commercial set I have. As for a dim sky, I have several HD recording I made while at the northern most tip of Norway and they look incredible on the Kuro. The same is true of the Galapagos HD DVD disc I often use as a reference having been there. The Kuro captures them both perfectly. NO issue at all.

Sit with a Kuro for a while...and get used to proper video. Then go look at an lcd and you will say it looks artificially bright.

As many have stated in the past...most consumers do not know what a good picture looks like. Which is why manufacturers put out ridiculously bright tv's....so moron's like all of you will buy them. Problem is that it gets increasingly difficult to find an accurate tv!

When I had a Kuro, I had powersave on....it looked great!

The sky is very blue but people look like they are standing under a cloud. I just don't understand. And it should not take a professional cal for outdoor scenes to look like outdoor scenes. Maybe this has nothing to do with brightness and more to do with the filters?

Do you ever see what we are describing in any shape or form on a Pioneer 9G?

The brightness of a screen is an objective measurable. The shade of white on the setting is also an objective measurable. For some reason on this forum there is a constant refrain about "inferior whites" and "dimness" that defies the objective numbers and reality.

D-Nice has already posted that Non-Elite Movie mode can calibrate to 40FL with accuracy. There is nothing subjective about how bright it is. The subjective question is whether 40FL is 'bright enough' for a given environment and individual's preference. If you can identify what level is 'bright enough' for your tastes and environment then you should be able to simply target a brightness level. (Color Temp can also affect perception here as well so you could also target that.)

We know how bright the calibrated screen is on Kuros. Peak brightness is measurable and generally recorded during calibration. My 6020 movie mode was calibrated to ~35FL for instance, slightly above THX recommended 30FL. Other modes (standard, performance, sport etc) can go much brighter and at a higher temp but of course less accurate for whatever that is worth to you.

So my calibrated mode is calibrated suitable for a dim to dark HT and above a bit in case I want to turn on the lights. If I need want something brighter I can go to Standard/Performance or other brighter A/V modes. (I have black crush adjusted out fairly well for these modes btw). If I want something brighter still I can go watch my LCD.


In the context of home theater do you find this same "dim" or "overcast" effect at movie theaters? (http://www.moesrealm.com/hometheater/screenguide.html) On most projectors the target is usually between 12FL and 20FL. That's what we're watching movies at. Relative to a plasma screen type that brightness level should translate easily between 30FL-40FL.

5.7 What are the industry standards for image brightness and screen reflectivity? According to the Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers (http://www.faqs.org/faqs/movies/tech/part1/) (SMPTE), the generally accepted standard-setting organization for the industry, films are to be projected at a brightness level of 16 footlamberts (+/- 2 footlamberts).

In terms of pure subjective preference and varying room light conditions even LCD 100FL+ could be just fine. In terms of reproducing the theater experience as seen by the director I tend to agree with this poster:


Keep in mind that all movies are timed and approved by the DP at anywhere from 12fl to 16fl per SMPTE specs (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13074993#post13074993). So watch it at any light level you wish but if you want to see the film exactly as the DP intended, then you need to use 12-16fl just as they did.

These ideas of 24fl to 48fl are ridiculous if the movie was timed at 12fl. Now if you have high ambient light such as a living room, that's different. But then you aren't getting the true theater expereince either.

Realism??? The correct terminology should be "real world" as "realism" would be based off a defined baseline. As I've said before, TVs are suppose to reflect the standards (SPMTE-C and Rec709 for NA), not the "real world".

Going further. we live in an 8-bit video world. NO TV on the market today will EVER come close to "real world" colors because the source data is STILL 8-bit. If you think they can, we can end this discussion immediately after this post as that is a fallacy I cannot and will not entertain.

I don't judge, or care to judge, TVs in big box stores, including Magnolia. If you are actually doing this, that is your first problem and I recommend you stop it immediately.

I do this all the time. The difference between you and I is that I actually do it at home in controlled environments with the proper equipment to verify what my eye tell me.

You issue isn't accuracy, it's brightness. It seems like 40fL isn't enough for you. I recommend you get an LCD and pray it can perform as well a Kuro when you set it to provide 60fL+ of peak brightness (the light output that probably would satisfy your needs).

How much are you willing to lose?

You have missed my point entirely and that is fine. I really do appreciate the reply.

I never once said that I expect any set to emulate reality. I said that the Pioneers (##20‘s mainly) create an overcast look in sunny scenes and that almost every other set I have looked at, plasma or LCD, don't exhibit this.

I am in no way referencing PQ in general. I am talking about the overcast look. Period

I have had a 42PX50U, a 50PZ85U, an LN52A650 and a 52W4100 in my home with the 5020. And most were using your recommended settings. I even had an $800 Vizio next to it for that matter. Calibrated or not, all of these sets looked more realistic to me and brighter in regards to sunny scenes only. The Pio looks like it has a film over it or something. The 5020 pretty much killed all of these sets in every other aspects.

There are too many people that have made this observation to simply dismiss it. I am not saying it is the end of the world or that it makes this a bad set.

The wall of sets I was viewing at Magnolias were Plasmas. The overcast look I observed on the Pioneers coincide with what I see at home. All of them were brighter and whiter. Hell, they were quite similar to the LCD’s for that matter. The whole wall looked extremely similar, leaving the Pioneers as the red headed step children out of the bunch. So this is not a plasma vs. LCD issue.

And I am not going to risk close to another $1k on an elite to possibly find the same result.

The brightness of a screen is an objective measurable. The shade of white on the setting is also an objective measurable. For some reason on this forum there is a constant refrain about "inferior whites" and "dimness" that defies the objective numbers and reality.

D-Nice has already posted that Non-Elite Movie mode can calibrate to 40FL with accuracy. There is nothing subjective about how bright it is. The subjective question is whether 40FL is 'bright enough' for a given environment and individual's preference. If you can identify what level is 'bright enough' for your tastes and environment then you should be able to simply target a brightness level. (Color Temp can also affect perception here as well so you could also target that.)

We know how bright the calibrated screen is on Kuros. Peak brightness is measurable and generally recorded during calibration. My 6020 movie mode was calibrated to ~35FL for instance, slightly above THX recommended 30FL. Other modes (standard, performance, sport etc) can go much brighter and at a higher temp but of course less accurate for whatever that is worth to you.

So my calibrated mode is calibrated suitable for a dim to dark HT and above a bit in case I want to turn on the lights. If I need want something brighter I can go to Standard/Performance or other brighter A/V modes. (I have black crush adjusted out fairly well for these modes btw). If I want something brighter still I can go watch my LCD.


In the context of home theater do you find this same "dim" or "overcast" effect at movie theaters? (http://www.moesrealm.com/hometheater/screenguide.html) On most projectors the target is usually between 12FL and 20FL. That's what we're watching movies at. Relative to a plasma screen type that brightness level should translate easily between 30FL-40FL.



In terms of pure subjective preference and varying room light conditions even LCD 100FL+ could be just fine. In terms of reproducing the theater experience as seen by the director I tend to agree with this poster:



Thank you very much to both of you for your time. I think the Pioneers may very well be the most accurate in terms of conforming to theater standards. Your comment about movie theaters is a great analogy. And yeah, I guess your right. If I had to think about, they probably do seem dim or overcast.

It may very well be that what I am looking for or prefer is a non-conforming picture that other vendors have seemingly succumbed to. My eyes apparently prefer to step out of the box of accuracy in order to be content? Does that make sense at all?

Thank you again. I know I am not the only one that appreciates the constant education that both of you provide.

My calibrated Elite can crank out over 50ftL in Day Mode and that's far too bright even in the middle of a sunny day. It's bright to the point where it looks beyond realistic. Instead of looking natural it instead looks like the glowing, artificial TV that it is. Now, if you have huge windows open to the bright sun and a dozen lights pointed at your TV, you'd want your TV to be able to compensate. Otherwise, it's a waste, an eye strain, and not at all pleasant looking to me, other than in a, "Hey, cool, now that's bright!" kind of way. I have yet to actually sit and watch anything in Day Mode.

Everyone has their own opinions, but the brigher-is-always-better philosophy is one that I simply I cannot relate to.

I have had a 42PX50U, a 50PZ85U, an LN52A650 and a 52W4100 in my home with the 5020. And most were using your recommended settings.I've never posted settings for any of the listed displays beyond the 5020FD.

I even had an $800 Vizio next to it for that matter. Calibrated or not, all of these sets looked more realistic to me and brighter in regards to sunny scenes only. The Pio looks like it has a film over it or something. The 5020 pretty much killed all of these sets in every other aspects.Stick your panel in performance mode and max out the settings. If you like the end result, get an another display or keep your 5020 in Performance mode.

Again, your issue is panel brightness. Get your other displays calibrated and see how they perform post calbration compared to your 5020.

There are too many people that have made this observation to simply dismiss it. I am not saying it is the end of the world or that it makes this a bad set. It's been dismissed because it makes absolutely no sense.

The wall of sets I was viewing at Magnolias were Plasmas. The overcast look I observed on the Pioneers coincide with what I see at home. All of them were brighter and whiter.Brighter? Perhaps and that is depended on the settings of each panel. Whiter??? White is defined as x.3127 y.3290 per Rec709 and SMPTE-C (this is what every single broadcast, DVD and BD is based on). If you perfer a bluer white, cool. But by no means is it or will it ever be "whiter"... let alone accurate.

And I am not going to risk close to another $1k on an elite to possibly find the same result.Sell your 5020 and get another display. I never understood people who complain about an item they bought instead of returning it and trying something else.

My calibrated Elite can crank out over 50ftL in Day Mode and that's far too bright even in the middle of a sunny day. It's bright to the point where it looks beyond realistic. Instead of looking natural it instead looks like the glowing, artificial TV that it is. Now, if you have huge windows open to the bright sun and a dozen lights pointed at your TV, you'd want your TV to be able to compensate. Otherwise, it's a waste, an eye strain, and not at all pleasant looking to me, other than in a, "Hey, cool, now that's bright!" kind of way. I have yet to actually sit and watch anything in Day Mode.

Everyone has their own opinions, but the brigher-is-always-better philosophy is one that I simply I cannot relate to.

I am with you Tbird. If you set brightness aside, have you ever seen what I have described? I have found it extremely difficult to articulate this. The "overcast" analogy made by another member really captured what I was trying to convey the closest. Because what makes no sense is that I find brightness in general to be to quite good. I have a hard time getting my head around this.

I think this goes hand in hand with the whites. Watching the baseball game, the text to me looked ultra white on the other plasmas. It is that ultra white that I would really like to achieve. Maybe this is unattainable with this set. Maybe a professional cal would do it, but for some reason I doubt the cal would make that much of a jump. But I could very well be wrong on that.

Thank you very much to both of you for your time. I think the Pioneers may very well be the most accurate in terms of conforming to theater standards. Your comment about movie theaters is a great analogy. And yeah, I guess your right. If I had to think about, they probably do seem dim or overcast.

It may very well be that what I am looking for or prefer is a non-conforming picture that other vendors have seemingly succumbed to. My eyes apparently prefer to step out of the box of accuracy in order to be content? Does that make sense at all?

Thank you again. I know I am not the only one that appreciates the constant education that both of you provide.

Although I have learned to appreciate an accurately calibrated image more and more I also like to "step out of the box of accuracy" now and then. I find some value in playing with image from time to time (putting aside the other issue of source that may not conform that well to standards anyway).

You may also have a point about the filter since when i shopped Plasmas I found the Kuro was a step ahead in the area of defeating or minimizing screen reflections in ambient light as compared to almost every other Plasma. Perhaps the filter has some effect there on perceived "brightness". I certainly find it to be a non-factor once you see the set at home but in many lighted stores the Kuro did seem dimmer.

I recall Samsung had a 77 model that had a very non-reflective screen, even better than the Kuro as recall. The problem was it lost most of the 3D differentiation and sheen of a Plasma which turned off a lot of consumers. Pioneer seems to strike a much better balance with it's anti-reflectivity but it probably also suffered in A/B comparisons in bright rooms because of it.

At home however, I see nothing "overcast" about the Kuro Image, esp. when placed in it's brighter modes and I have 9 HDTV's to compare to.

If conditions are bright in my room the picture will look dim in Pure mode. I guess an "overcast" look is a fair way to describe it. ISF Night completely solves the problem for me. ISF Day is another step up in brightness, but again, at that point, I find it too bright.

Also keep in mind that lots of bright whites on the screen will engage the ABL. This is true of all plasmas, though, certainly not just Pioneer.

If you can somehow get a look at a calibrated Elite, it'd probably be worth your while. Ignoring the fact that you've already exchanged 79 televisions ;), you might find that it'd be worth the extra expense.

Although I have learned to appreciate an accurately calibrated image more and more I also like to "step out of the box of accuracy" now and then. I find some value in playing with image from time to time (putting aside the other issue of source that may not conform that well to standards anyway).

You may also have a point about the filter since when i shopped Plasmas I found the Kuro was a step ahead in the area of defeating or minimizing screen reflections in ambient light as compared to almost every other Plasma. Perhaps the filter has some effect there on perceived "brightness". I certainly find it to be a non-factor once you see the set at home but in many lighted stores the Kuro did seem dimmer.

I recall Samsung had a 77 model that had a very non-reflective screen, even better than the Kuro as recall. The problem was it lost most of the 3D differentiation and sheen of a Plasma which turned off a lot of consumers. Pioneer seems to strike a much better balance with it's anti-reflectivity but it probably also suffered in A/B comparisons in bright rooms because of it.

At home however, I see nothing "overcast" about the Kuro Image, esp. when placed in it's brighter modes and I have 9 HDTV's to compare to.

Thank you very much for at least trying to see this through my eyes. Your bed side manner is top notch!

And the anti-reflective qualities of the Kuro is simply amazing, but may also be the culprit for my conundrum.

I feel satisfied and have a much better general understanding of what may be going on here.

Thanks again

If conditions are bright in my room the picture will look dim in Pure mode. I guess an "overcast" look is a fair way to describe it. ISF Night completely solves the problem for me. ISF Day is another step up in brightness, but again, at that point, I find it too bright.

Also keep in mind that lots of bright whites on the screen will engage the ABL. This is true of all plasmas, though, certainly not just Pioneer.

If you can somehow get a look at a calibrated Elite, it'd probably be worth your while. Ignoring the fact that you've already exchanged 79 televisions ;), you might find that it'd be worth the extra expense.

ROFL I am calling the local BB now. The guy told me yesterday at the store that the 111 is only X dollars even though the web price is much higher. I may grab it at the X dollars price if it holds to be true. Thanks T

Thank you very much for at least trying to see this through my eyes. Your bed side manner is top notch!

And the anti-reflective qualities of the Kuro is simply amazing, but may also be the culprit for my conundrum.

I feel satisfied and have a much better general understanding of what may be going on here.

Thanks again

Make sure that power save mode is off. How high is your contrast?

ROFL I am calling the local BB now. The guy told me yesterday at the store that the 111 is only X dollars even though the web price is much higher. I may grab it at the X dollars price if it holds to be true. Thanks T

Just make sure that you're comfortable with their return policy. Remember, at the store they're not going to have the ISFccc modes available to play with. You'll need to get it home and ControlCAL it before deciding whether or not it addresses your complaint.

Make sure that power save mode is off. How high is your contrast?

Powersave mode is off and here are my settings.

Mode: Game and Standard
Brightess is +1 for both right now
Contrast is 37
Rest are default
PC is off

Factory Settings

R-HIGH 510
G-HIGH 497
B-HIGH 500
R-LOW 500
G-LOW 500
B-LOW 500
ABL 108

New values:

R-HIGH 497
G-HIGH 497
B-HIGH 549
R-LOW 500
G-LOW 500
B-LOW 500
ABL 108

Now my hope was that the above adjustments might help my cause even though these are settings that were intended for movie mode. Without test equipment, I would have to say that I think it did help a bit to be honest. It definately did nothing bad in my eyes.

I have been unable as of yet to get used to Movie mode. It makes my guide look blurry and dim and just seems to further amplify my concerns and my mind translates that to the image. I know that is not rational but what can you do? I guess I have closet LCD tendencies.

When all is said and done, this issue far from ruins my experience. It just has me perplexed is all. I am left wondering if I still may be able to get closer to what I want with this set, which would be a bonus.

I think this goes hand in hand with the whites. Watching the baseball game, the text to me looked ultra white on the other plasmas. It is that ultra white that I would really like to achieve. Maybe this is unattainable with this set. Maybe a professional cal would do it, but for some reason I doubt the cal would make that much of a jump. But I could very well be wrong on that.[/QUOTE]

That bright white you want is NOT what the chyron generator is cranking out. I have been in production studios during sports programming and I have never seen the bright white that you describe on the graphics. What they waht is white or a grayish white, not a bright white. If you are seeing bright white on other displays, they are very inaccurate and not true to the source.

Ok, TopperMcFly needs help. Only person to call at this point is Dr Phil.......:rolleyes:

JL panasonic just change the gamma points like 2.0 2.1 2.2 etc on the spectrum so they can get further on.... besides that tv is too expensive and otherwise to me would not be comparable to the elite


Gus and anyone else,

Simple question. Has anyone on AVS personally reviewed the panny 65vx100u?
Yes I know it is way expensive but also would like to know if it does do some things better than the Kuro's.

And PS Yes I know HDGuru did a comparison, which apparently is suspect due to several factors (pio 8g not 9) including the fact that he did not respond to any questions about his testing procedures.

thank you, JL

Earlier a member mentioned that to see the brighter picture, one would have to go to ISFccc mode - is that the case just for the 5020?

Or if I get my hands on an Elite, could I make the necessary adjustments?
It sounds like this "Day mode" is only available on an Elite?
Is that correct?

By the way, thanks everyone in advance, I agree with TopperMcFly - this has been very educational in our understanding of whats going on.

Has anyone done a comparison between the Panasonic TH-65PZ850U and Kuro's Pro-151FD?

I am replacing a 70" Sony LCD with one of the above, but I'm torn in which way to go... The price difference is about $150.

My view distance is 13 feet and going to 60" from 70" makes me a bit nervous because I may miss resolution and detail from that distance? The 65" may not be as much of a shocker from 70"... Pros, Cons?

Any suggestions would be much appreciated! Thanks.

hd_axel..... I'm looking at exactly the same comparisons here...

The benefit in size from the Panny, or the touch better PQ/blacks from the Pioneer.... personally I have 2 panny's now - 428uk and 509uk, and they are spectacular, but not 1080p, as I have an Anthem D2v on the way so I also feel the need to upgrade the panel as well.

I am leaning toward the Panasonic for the bigger size, I haven't been let down by my last 2 screens... hard to get all the Pioneer guys to give you a different answer then that....

Ok got my answer, indeed no one on AVS has reviewed this set- nor for that matter no one off AVS who is well-respected by AVS members have reviewed this set. As such no one really knows what benefits this set might have....I know many here knew this but felt it wasn't worth there time to answer me...not nice...

"Here is the link from the Panasonic Pro web site, I did not notice it to began with
http://www.panasonic.com/business/pl...sma-series.asp

I have been told by an installer in Portland Or that they are close to being released.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
It is strange how that display has sort of been MIA thus far. The original pre-release info by HDGuru had pegged it for December, but we've not heard a peep from Panasonic on it since. In fact, Panasonic has never even officially acknowledged this product (product line, actually) with a press release to my knowledge. Either it is something they are putting almost no marketing effort behind whatsoever, or plans have been changed. You might try to call a custom installer in your area (or find one on the forum) and ask them if they have any news on the VX100. I suspect that this product may not even be sold in high end retail stores, like Magnolia. It may be truly a custom install product only, which would mean it will end up being even more pricey that the $10000 MSRP would suggest.

Earlier a member mentioned that to see the brighter picture, one would have to go to ISFccc mode - is that the case just for the 5020?

Or if I get my hands on an Elite, could I make the necessary adjustments?
It sounds like this "Day mode" is only available on an Elite?
Is that correct?

By the way, thanks everyone in advance, I agree with TopperMcFly - this has been very educational in our understanding of whats going on.

The ISFccc menus are not available on the 5020/6020.

You want ultra white...then crank the color temp.

hd_axel..... I'm looking at exactly the same comparisons here...

The benefit in size from the Panny, or the touch better PQ/blacks from the Pioneer.... personally I have 2 panny's now - 428uk and 509uk, and they are spectacular, but not 1080p, as I have an Anthem D2v on the way so I also feel the need to upgrade the panel as well.

I am leaning toward the Panasonic for the bigger size, I haven't been let down by my last 2 screens... hard to get all the Pioneer guys to give you a different answer then that....

Thanks Warpdrv!
I am leaning toward the Panasonic too because of the size, but then again, the August release of Panasonics V10 series has me wanting to wait for the debut of that model too. As far as Pioneer with those inky blacks, the 3-D look everyone seems to mention, and becoming a thing of the past here soon makes things tough in making these decisions... I figure, that unless they are side by side, either one will look great once it's all said and done!

A friend of mine has a 50" Panny from about 2004/2005, unsure of the model, but the picture just blows me away when watching BluRay in just 720p. I haven't seen either the Kuro Pro-151FD nor the Panasonic TH-65PZ850U, but my imagination tells me that viewing 1080p BluRay content on either one of these sets would be spectacular, or at least better than my buddys 720p picture... Decisions, Decisions!

I have had a 42PX50U, a 50PZ85U, an LN52A650 and a 52W4100 in my home with the 5020. And most were using your recommended settings. I even had an $800 Vizio next to it for that matter. Calibrated or not, all of these sets looked more realistic to me and brighter in regards to sunny scenes only.
You've mentioned using D-Nice's settings for the 5020, and I believe even referring to that as "calibrated". First, while a good number of sets may well respond properly to those settings, I don't think it's a substitute for a proper calibration and your set may respond differently. Then, you're comparing it against sets that aren't even calibrated similarly, and in fact are probably set to a mode that emphasizes what you're looking for - while you've taken your 5020 and probably made adjustments to minimize what you're looking for, because other people on the net told you so, because that's what they're looking for. Why are you skipping the modes that emphasize the brighter "pop" you're seeking?

Ok got my answer, indeed no one on AVS has reviewed this set- nor for that matter no one off AVS who is well-respected by AVS members have reviewed this set. As such no one really knows what benefits this set might have....I know many here knew this but felt it wasn't worth there time to answer me...not nice...

"Here is the link from the Panasonic Pro web site, I did not notice it to began with
http://www.panasonic.com/business/pl...sma-series.asp

I have been told by an installer in Portland Or that they are close to being released.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
It is strange how that display has sort of been MIA thus far. The original pre-release info by HDGuru had pegged it for December, but we've not heard a peep from Panasonic on it since. In fact, Panasonic has never even officially acknowledged this product (product line, actually) with a press release to my knowledge. Either it is something they are putting almost no marketing effort behind whatsoever, or plans have been changed. You might try to call a custom installer in your area (or find one on the forum) and ask them if they have any news on the VX100. I suspect that this product may not even be sold in high end retail stores, like Magnolia. It may be truly a custom install product only, which would mean it will end up being even more pricey that the $10000 MSRP would suggest.

Not only is the VX100's price tag at $10k, but this is a monitor only. No speakers, no tuner, and no stand. You'd do better going for a Pioneer 141 Signature Elite.

Not only is the VX100's price tag at $10k, but this is a monitor only. No speakers, no tuner, and no stand. You'd do better going for a Pioneer 141 Signature Elite.

No question there. I was interested in this set as it proffers what panny might do next on their regular sets. I still am waiting just to have a competent unbiased review of thing; yet it seems that dog simply won't hunt- as it were.
Maybe by the time its reviewed OLED's will be out!

You've mentioned using D-Nice's settings for the 5020, and I believe even referring to that as "calibrated". First, while a good number of sets may well respond properly to those settings, I don't think it's a substitute for a proper calibration and your set may respond differently. Then, you're comparing it against sets that aren't even calibrated similarly, and in fact are probably set to a mode that emphasizes what you're looking for - while you've taken your 5020 and probably made adjustments to minimize what you're looking for, because other people on the net told you so, because that's what they're looking for. Why are you skipping the modes that emphasize the brighter "pop" you're seeking?

Maybe he calibrated using control cal. Not sure. But Topper has several issues with his 5020. IMO he should just exchange it for something else. Another brand altogether.

Maybe he calibrated using control cal. Not sure. But Topper has several issues with his 5020. IMO he should just exchange it for something else. Another brand altogether.

I am sure I mentioned in one of my many rants that I used Dnice offsets but also acknowledged that this was not considered by me to be an authentic calibration. Sorry for the confusion.

I also mentioned that I used Dnice settings on some of the other sets. Looking back I found that they were from established members of this site but not Dnice specificaly.

As far as the using brighter modes. I use Standard for the most part. This seems to be the brightest mode without losing detail. I do venture into performance when desperate but never Dynamic.

I watched OCC last night. The one about the car show. They were in cloudless sky conditions and it still looked like I was seeing them through sunglasses. Can't put my finger on it and won't beat a dead horse here. Maybe a pro cal would make the diff. I am just going to look at one of the many sets that please me more out of the box.

My dream set is a Plasma with Kuro blacks, acceptable (to me) whites and brightness, Plasma viewing angles, and something that removes Judder very well like AMP without the soap opera effect or too many artifacts. Is that too much to ask? lol

Who knows, maybe the G10 will fill a portion of this wish list. Waiting to see.

Hopefully at the very least people see that I am being genuine in my thoughts and not simply trying to start trouble. Discussion never hurt anyone.

Ok got my answer, indeed no one on AVS has reviewed this set- nor for that matter no one off AVS who is well-respected by AVS members have reviewed this set. As such no one really knows what benefits this set might have....I know many here knew this but felt it wasn't worth there time to answer me...not nice...

"Here is the link from the Panasonic Pro web site, I did not notice it to began with
http://www.panasonic.com/business/pl...sma-series.asp

I have been told by an installer in Portland Or that they are close to being released.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
It is strange how that display has sort of been MIA thus far. The original pre-release info by HDGuru had pegged it for December, but we've not heard a peep from Panasonic on it since. In fact, Panasonic has never even officially acknowledged this product (product line, actually) with a press release to my knowledge. Either it is something they are putting almost no marketing effort behind whatsoever, or plans have been changed. You might try to call a custom installer in your area (or find one on the forum) and ask them if they have any news on the VX100. I suspect that this product may not even be sold in high end retail stores, like Magnolia. It may be truly a custom install product only, which would mean it will end up being even more pricey that the $10000 MSRP would suggest.
The unit that was reviewed by www.avforums.com in December was an exclusive pre-production sample.
I was recently advised by a specialist installer that they had recently installed a TH-65VX100,so it does exist here in the UK,even though it does not appear on Panasonic UK's website.

Gus and anyone else,

Simple question. Has anyone on AVS personally reviewed the panny 65vx100u?
Yes I know it is way expensive but also would like to know if it does do some things better than the Kuro's.

And PS Yes I know HDGuru did a comparison, which apparently is suspect due to several factors (pio 8g not 9) including the fact that he did not respond to any questions about his testing procedures.

thank you, JL

CNet and UltimateAVmag also did reviews of the Panny 65VX100.

I am sure I mentioned in one of my many rants that I used Dnice offsets but also acknowledged that this was not considered by me to be an authentic calibration. Sorry for the confusion.

I also mentioned that I used Dnice settings on some of the other sets. Looking back I found that they were from established members of this site but not Dnice specificaly.

As far as the using brighter modes. I use Standard for the most part. This seems to be the brightest mode without losing detail. I do venture into performance when desperate but never Dynamic.

I watched OCC last night. The one about the car show. They were in cloudless sky conditions and it still looked like I was seeing them through sunglasses. Can't put my finger on it and won't beat a dead horse here. Maybe a pro cal would make the diff. I am just going to look at one of the many sets that please me more out of the box.

My dream set is a Plasma with Kuro blacks, acceptable (to me) whites and brightness, Plasma viewing angles, and something that removes Judder very well like AMP without the soap opera effect or too many artifacts. Is that too much to ask? lol

Who knows, maybe the G10 will fill a portion of this wish list. Waiting to see.

Hopefully at the very least people see that I am being genuine in my thoughts and not simply trying to start trouble. Discussion never hurt anyone.

Maybe check out the Pioneer KRP monitors if you already have cable and external audio.

hd_axel..... I'm looking at exactly the same comparisons here...

The benefit in size from the Panny, or the touch better PQ/blacks from the Pioneer.... personally I have 2 panny's now - 428uk and 509uk, and they are spectacular, but not 1080p, as I have an Anthem D2v on the way so I also feel the need to upgrade the panel as well.

I am leaning toward the Panasonic for the bigger size, I haven't been let down by my last 2 screens... hard to get all the Pioneer guys to give you a different answer then that....


There's a very real reason for that. Like you I've owned nothing but Pannys and one bomb of a Samsung panel, until last spring that is. I always loved the Pannys and was very happy with them, however when I made the jump to a 60" panel I went with the 6020 after much debate, and all I can say is that almost a year later I'm still floored by the Kuro. Simply put it's on a differen't level than the Panny or anything else out there.

Thanks shasta, I can get a great price on the 6020, but I am worried about not having the ability to tweak it to my likings, I could easily save $1000 here as that panel is in town, which I can get wholesale. Will I be sorry if I don't get the 151 that can be calibrated or don't worry about it...

The Panny will run me a couple hundred $$ more over the 151.

I am sure I mentioned in one of my many rants that I used Dnice offsets but also acknowledged that this was not considered by me to be an authentic calibration. Sorry for the confusion.

I also mentioned that I used Dnice settings on some of the other sets. Looking back I found that they were from established members of this site but not Dnice specificaly.

As far as the using brighter modes. I use Standard for the most part. This seems to be the brightest mode without losing detail. I do venture into performance when desperate but never Dynamic.

I watched OCC last night. The one about the car show. They were in cloudless sky conditions and it still looked like I was seeing them through sunglasses. Can't put my finger on it and won't beat a dead horse here. Maybe a pro cal would make the diff. I am just going to look at one of the many sets that please me more out of the box.

My dream set is a Plasma with Kuro blacks, acceptable (to me) whites and brightness, Plasma viewing angles, and something that removes Judder very well like AMP without the soap opera effect or too many artifacts. Is that too much to ask? lol

Who knows, maybe the G10 will fill a portion of this wish list. Waiting to see.

Hopefully at the very least people see that I am being genuine in my thoughts and not simply trying to start trouble. Discussion never hurt anyone.

I here ya, but unfortunately for you and me, the current state of the technology is not there to give you all that you want in a single display.

Today, you're going to have compromise and live with what is most acceptable to you.

There's a very real reason for that. Like you I've owned nothing but Pannys and one bomb of a Samsung panel, until last spring that is. I always loved the Pannys and was very happy with them, however when I made the jump to a 60" panel I went with the 6020 after much debate, and all I can say is that almost a year later I'm still floored by the Kuro. Simply put it's on a differen't level than the Panny or anything else out there.

Have you brought home a 65px850u and set it up? Or are you comparing your in home set up (6020) against a 65px850u in store settings, which usually look horrible?

I think Kuro owners really need to stop making those kinds of comments because it really skews the reality of real differences between the top displays, which really isn't that great.

Hi everyone. I have a few questions regarding to these two sets. I've run tons of searches, but the vast amount of information on this site (you guys are absolutely insane btw) makes it hard to draw concrete conclusions.

1) How these sets handle extensive video game play? I haven't found much information in this particular area. I don't want to worry about burn-ins or image retention after 5 hours of continuous play.

2) I've read models from different countries act.. differently. I'm looking at Newegg's Pioneer KURO 50" 1080p Plasma HDTV PDP-5020FD (I can't attach a hyperlink due to my post count). Is this the correct model people are talking about? Also is there a better place to buy? Newegg doesn't apply tax and has free shipping.

Lastly, is there at least a general consensus in regards to which television is superior in a certain aspects (PQ, Glare, susceptible to IR and BI)? If one does have an issue, is the problem very noticeable to an average viewer? I don't have complete control over the lighting in my room, and the television will be on consistently for extended periods of time. Will that be an issue?

I want to buy a Plasma for the better picture quality, however if LCD to more suitable for my needs, then I'll bite the bullet. I just want be on the safe side. Any help is appreciated, thanks.

The only video games that present a problem with plasma or any other tv for that matter is a game that keeps the same exact info on the screen at all times... Like Pong

I have no idea why this is even a question any more these days....

With the extreme amount of image background change and image movement in these games these days.... give me some idea of what game you play that keeps the same image on the screen for more 5 secs... I am seriously interested...

I have never once experienced an issue with IR every with my plasma's...

Plenty of games have HUDs containing areas that never change.

That said, they've yet to present any problems at all for me.

How about those green Phospher trails people talk about? How does the Kuro handle that?

I think Kuro owners really need to stop making those kinds of comments because it really skews the reality of real differences between the top displays, which really isn't that great.

So your subjective impressions are somehow more objective than Kuro owners' subjective impressions?

So your subjective impressions are somehow more objective than Kuro owners' subjective impressions?

Did you see the comparison pics between the Kuro and the lower tier Plasma like Vizio? They are objective and quite revealing, especially when you get past the Kuro hype.

Did you see the comparison pics between the Kuro and the lower tier Plasma like Vizio?

Yup. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15992045#post15992045)

They are objective and quite revealing, especially when you get past the Kuro hype.

I live near a major shipping channel. With my cell phone camera, the right angle, enough distance and a little fog, I can make a 900' liquid natural gas tanker look like a 30' sloop. How's that for "objective"?

I am sure I mentioned in one of my many rants that I used Dnice offsets but also acknowledged that this was not considered by me to be an authentic calibration. Sorry for the confusion.

I also mentioned that I used Dnice settings on some of the other sets. Looking back I found that they were from established members of this site but not Dnice specificaly.

As far as the using brighter modes. I use Standard for the most part. This seems to be the brightest mode without losing detail. I do venture into performance when desperate but never Dynamic.

I watched OCC last night. The one about the car show. They were in cloudless sky conditions and it still looked like I was seeing them through sunglasses. Can't put my finger on it and won't beat a dead horse here. Maybe a pro cal would make the diff. I am just going to look at one of the many sets that please me more out of the box.

My dream set is a Plasma with Kuro blacks, acceptable (to me) whites and brightness, Plasma viewing angles, and something that removes Judder very well like AMP without the soap opera effect or too many artifacts. Is that too much to ask? lol

Who knows, maybe the G10 will fill a portion of this wish list. Waiting to see.

Hopefully at the very least people see that I am being genuine in my thoughts and not simply trying to start trouble. Discussion never hurt anyone.

My bad. You keep saying your 5020 is calibrated. DNice's offsets are not calibrations and nobody on this board ever said they were. So you can see why what you post is confusing. If you keep the set, just calibrate it with Control Cal. I hear the whites are much improved. Its only 60 bucks and Turbe will help you. Otherwise, just return the set and get another brand.

My bad. You keep saying your 5020 is calibrated. DNice's offsets are not calibrations and nobody on this board ever said they were. So you can see why what you post is confusing. If you keep the set, just calibrate it with Control Cal. I hear the whites are much improved. Its only 60 bucks and Turbe will help you. Otherwise, just return the set and get another brand.


How do you think I applied Dnice offsets? LOL I had all the hardware and cables, I just purchased the profile and tried it out a week or so ago. Easy chapeezy.

Sorry if I have confused things a bit.

I have bumped things up a bit more and am feeling fairly good about brightness. I still think the filter changes something visualy, but I am pretty ok with it. I would have to say the whites did end up a hair whiter.

The only real issues I am dealing with now are judder, which is not a fault of the 5020 and the horizontal artifacts I get, which is the fault of the 5020. I leave PC off and see it far less and it is usually on poor content.

Chuck Russo from Pioneer just got back to me two days ago with an internal report from the engineers addressing my artifact issue. He said it was an internal document and he was unable to provide me a copy so he had to read it to me. It said that they were fully aware of the issues I have been experiencing and that it was inherent with Pioneer technology. They apologized profusely and recommended that I try to view progressive scan content rather than interlaced. It even went on to confirm that although it is much more seldom to see these artifacts with PC off, it is still possible to see these artifacts with it off under certain conditions while de-interlacing. All in all, they were very pleasant and it was nice to hear that I am not crazy.

Again, it is seldom so I may be OK with this as well. Bugs me a little that I can't use PC but I nver saw much benfit from it anyway.

I have to weigh all these things against the otherwise awesome PQ this set provides

So it is still touch and go.

Yup. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15992045#post15992045)



I live near a major shipping channel. With my cell phone camera, the right angle, enough distance and a little fog, I can make a 900' liquid natural gas tanker look like a 30' sloop. How's that for "objective"?

You are offering nothing to the conversation other than hostility. I own the 5020 and took the pics. As crude as they were, my eyes told me that the Vizio was not a coutry mile behind the 5020 as many would lead you to believe.

Aside from black level, they were pretty damn close to be honest.

Auditor seems to troll a bit but he never attacks people. You are trolling looking for Auditor posts and making rediculous claims. Not sure that is any better.

You are offering nothing to the conversation other than hostility. I own the 5020 and took the pics. As crude as they were, my eyes told me that the Vizio was not a coutry mile behind the 5020 as many would lead you to believe.

Aside from black level, they were pretty damn close to be honest.

Auditor seems to troll a bit but he never attacks people. You are trolling looking for Auditor posts and making rediculous claims. Not sure that is any better.

If you think that vizio is close to Kuro quality then why in the world are you keeping the Kuro? Save yourself some money for heavens sake:).
If your eyes aren't objective enough to tell the difference between A vizio and a 9G pioneer Kuro, then you are wasting your money. End of story.

I hate to say it, But from the sound of your taste (Comparing an accurate picture to a dog turd?), You might be happier heading to your nearest retail store and picking up an Olevia or Westinghouse LCD, Putting it in torch mode, set color temp to super cool, crank up the contrast all the way, and sit down and enjoy.
Theres nothing wrong with liking a TV the way you like it.
The whole point of this is to enjoy what you own.

Also, To anyone who is making judgements by the "vizio vs Kuro" pictures, You may want to take a trip over to the Kuro pictures thread and see some of the 5020/6020 pictures there before heading to Walmart and picking up that Vizio. Just a suggestion.

If you think that vizio is close to Kuro quality then why in the world are you keeping the Kuro? Save yourself some money for heavens sake:).
If your eyes aren't objective enough to tell the difference between A vizio and a 9G pioneer Kuro, then you are wasting your money. End of story.

I hate to say it, But from the sound of your taste (Comparing an accurate picture to a dog turd?), You might be happier heading to your nearest retail store and picking up an Olevia or Westinghouse LCD, Putting it in torch mode, set color temp to super cool, crank up the contrast all the way, and sit down and enjoy.
Theres nothing wrong with liking a TV the way you like it.
The whole point of this is to enjoy what you own.

Also, To anyone who is making judgements by the "vizio vs Kuro" pictures, You may want to take a trip over to the Kuro pictures thread and see some of the 5020/6020 pictures there before heading to Walmart and picking up that Vizio. Just a suggestion.You sound extremely pretentious. "Eyes aren't objective enough" Visual preference is always subjective.

You are offering nothing to the conversation other than hostility.

If questioning someone stating subjective impressions as fact is "hostility," then I'm guilty as charged.

I own the 5020 and took the pics. As crude as they were, my eyes told me that the Vizio was not a coutry mile behind the 5020 as many would lead you to believe.

Which again involves subjective impressions - in this instance yours, which I have not attacked, even though I do not agree with them in this instance.

Aside from black level, they were pretty damn close to be honest.

You didn't think there were significant differences in color accuracy, contrast or video processing?

Auditor seems to troll a bit but he never attacks people. You are trolling looking for Auditor posts and making rediculous claims. Not sure that is any better.

I doubt Auditor feels his pain quite as acutely as you do via proxy. :) In any event, hyperbole is a valid rhetorical device when involved in debate. That's all we're doing here.

You sound extremely pretentious. "Eyes aren't objective enough" Visual preference is always subjective.

let me re-phrase then, "if you cannot tell an objective difference".
Better?

Why spend the money on a thoroughbred when any old nag would suffice? Save yourself some dough, and just go pick up that Vizio at Wal-Mart. If that makes you happy, then great.

let me re-phrase then, "if you cannot tell an objective difference".
Better?Objectively the Kuro has deeper blacks which he admitted. That doesn't neceassarily make it the best television suited for him. Different people have difference preferences--you place a higher preference on blacks and he places a higher preference on brightness and whites. Liking a television is subjective unless a television does everything the opposing television does better, which apparently isn't the case.

Objectively the Kuro has deeper blacks which he admitted. That doesn't neceassarily make it the best television suited for him. Different people have difference preferences--you place a higher preference on blacks and he places a higher preference on brightness and whites. Liking a television is subjective unless a television does everything the opposing television does better, which apparently isn't the case.


Well I would agree but for the fact Topper still hasn't returned his set and bought one that displayed brighter whites.

How do you think I applied Dnice offsets? LOL I had all the hardware and cables, I just purchased the profile and tried it out a week or so ago. Easy chapeezy.

Sorry if I have confused things a bit.

I have bumped things up a bit more and am feeling fairly good about brightness. I still think the filter changes something visualy, but I am pretty ok with it. I would have to say the whites did end up a hair whiter.

The only real issues I am dealing with now are judder, which is not a fault of the 5020 and the horizontal artifacts I get, which is the fault of the 5020. I leave PC off and see it far less and it is usually on poor content.

Chuck Russo from Pioneer just got back to me two days ago with an internal report from the engineers addressing my artifact issue. He said it was an internal document and he was unable to provide me a copy so he had to read it to me. It said that they were fully aware of the issues I have been experiencing and that it was inherent with Pioneer technology. They apologized profusely and recommended that I try to view progressive scan content rather than interlaced. It even went on to confirm that although it is much more seldom to see these artifacts with PC off, it is still possible to see these artifacts with it off under certain conditions while de-interlacing. All in all, they were very pleasant and it was nice to hear that I am not crazy.

Again, it is seldom so I may be OK with this as well. Bugs me a little that I can't use PC but I nver saw much benfit from it anyway.

I have to weigh all these things against the otherwise awesome PQ this set provides

So it is still touch and go.

Okay. My bad again.

Well this got ugly fast. I said the Vizio was closer than you would think. I never said the Vizio was better or even as good in any way what so ever.

If saying the gap was closer than one would think hurts your feelings this much, well that is kind of sad. The Vizio is even on CNETs best buy list.

Plus, some of you guys are so keen on "If it isn't in your house you should keep your mouth shut" that all I have to say is refer to your own rules.

So let me think about this carefully before I make this statement......

Having had both sets in my home, one right above the other, the Vizio performed far better than I would have expected. I found the blacks very lacking. But I also found the brightness, rich color, contrast and bright whites to be quite good. The additional available controls were also a pleasant addition. Although it did not match the Kuros level of performance, I can still see why this would be considered a "good buy" given the dramatic price difference.

So leave the pics out of the equation. If you want to attack me for making the above statement, then shame on you. You can save your arrogant hypocritical attacks for someone who cares. To those that took what I said as it was intended, I greatly appreciate your backing me up.

I have a 42" Panny in the bedroom and a Kuro 6020 in the livingroom. The Panny has a nice picture but nothing in comparison with the Kuro!!!

Be a part of history and treat yourself to a Kuro while they are still around!!! Not only will you be blown away by the picture but the sound is something that you have never heard coming from a TV!!!

As far as the Pioneer Warranty is concerned ... I had a flaw in my panel and had to have it serviced a month back. I called Pioneer and the panel was ordered, TV picked up, panel replaced and TV returned in two weeks!!!

Pioneer is definitely miles ahead of anyone else and their product will be missed.

Gary

Thanks shasta, I can get a great price on the 6020, but I am worried about not having the ability to tweak it to my likings, I could easily save $1000 here as that panel is in town, which I can get wholesale. Will I be sorry if I don't get the 151 that can be calibrated or don't worry about it...

The Panny will run me a couple hundred $$ more over the 151.
To make the decision even harder, consider the KRP-600M. It is basically a 141FD minus the ISFccc interface and a few physical inputs. It is definitely better than the 6020 in adjustability, and can be bought for quite a bit less than the 6020 to boot (almost $2000 cheaper than the 151). See all the details here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1102574

I have bumped things up a bit more and am feeling fairly good about brightness. I still think the filter changes something visualy, but I am pretty ok with it.The AR filter on the Kuro is doing nothing beyond rejecting light from outside of the display. that is what it is suppose to do. If it was doing anything beyond that, it would be picked up by calibration equipment.....equipment that is FAR more sensitve than your eyes.

Anyone? This is the right thread(Panasonic Vs Kuro), to ask this right?

Where did you get a 70" Sony LCD and for how much? Holy moly, that thing must've cost a fortune.

Anyways, I think almost everyone would recommend the Elite based on PQ alone. If size is such an issue, have you looked into getting a projector at all? Or is the room too bright?

Well this got ugly fast. I said the Vizio was closer than you would think. I never said the Vizio was better or even as good in any way what so ever.

If saying the gap was closer than one would think hurts your feelings this much, well that is kind of sad. The Vizio is even on CNETs best buy list.

Plus, some of you guys are so keen on "If it isn't in your house you should keep your mouth shut" that all I have to say is refer to your own rules.

So let me think about this carefully before I make this statement......

Having had both sets in my home, one right above the other, the Vizio performed far better than I would have expected. I found the blacks very lacking. But I also found the brightness, rich color, contrast and bright whites to be quite good. The additional available controls were also a pleasant addition. Although it did not match the Kuros level of performance, I can still see why this would be considered a "good buy" given the dramatic price difference.

So leave the pics out of the equation. If you want to attack me for making the above statement, then shame on you. You can save your arrogant hypocritical attacks for someone who cares. To those that took what I said as it was intended, I greatly appreciate your backing me up.
Don't let them wear you down!
This morning I moved my Panasonic PX700 into the lounge,and set it up beside my Pioneer LX608(both 2007 models).
Both displaying an identical source.
And you know what-the Panasonic's PQ was not disgraced by that of the Pioneer.
Back in 2007 I was being told that the 8G trounced any Panasonic,and when I challenged that statement I was told I didn't know what I was talking about.
It seems nothing changes.

I applied Dnice offsets.

And I totaly agree about everything you mentioned. The Vizio shows several issues and the 5020 was definatley in the wrong mode fro PQ. I tried to be clear about what I was doing but looking back I see I could have used different wording and cautions. And some of my comments should not have been based on that setup.

So yes, I actually use Game mode and sometimes standard and those pictures do not and should not be used as examples of PQ. They were simply quick shots that showed the gamma difference even with the 5020 in one of its ultra-bright modes.

When I went to Game mode, the detail was better than in performance but even more dim in comparison. I still do not understand movie mode. It must be my brain circuitry, becuase I swear evrything gets blury and drab even after offset settings. I really like game mode very much.

When all is said and done, I only maintain that the 5020 is quite dim. That and PC with 1080i, but that is another story that I can live with. Overall, that is a very short list of negatives for any set.

And almost forgot, the whites are that different regardless of being in Perf mode. I stand by my feelings on the whites. Those pics are accurate in that regard.

Every set in the Magnolias was far brighter than the Pioneers and they looked good while brighter for the most part. I still see tons of noise on the 60" pannys and more than I like on the 50's.


One of the greatest example of how not to judge TV's in stores is Costco. Right when you walk in they have all the TV's right there, with the biggest ones the first to see. So, right in the front is the 6020fd, a 65" Sharp, a 58" Panny, and a 52" Sony. From the distance, the first thing you notice is how incredibly bright the Sharp and Sony's are. You notice how the Panny is quite a bit dimmer and the Kuro is incredibly dim compared to even the Panny. Now consider that the show they are playing is snowboarding and you can imagine how 'bad' the Kuro looks. I'm sure this instantly prevents 75% of shoppers from even considering the Kuro and probably half from considering the Panny.

As you walk closer, of course your eyes are drawn to the Sony and Sharp (two bright white screens with the Panny and Kuro in between). I knew right away that the Panny and Kuro would be the only options I would consider. When I stood 10' or so away, I could see how much better both of these plasmas are. You have the bright store lights glaring down and even with the reflections off the screen and the darker image, the plasmas are far superior. The fast moving snowboarder was so much clearer, the colors look so much better and overall just a superior picture. The Kuro just seems to have that extra clarity and natural appearance, by a slight edge over the Panny even in the bright store. Is that slight difference worth the $$, I don't know. Throw in the fact that none of these sets have been calibrated and I don't see how anyone with even the slightest bit of knowledge could pick LCD over plasma, yet so many do.

Now what if they had these sets, all calibrated to normal settings and in a dark area of the store. How would people's perceptions change? Would everyone be in awe over how much better the plasmas look? You just can't tell squat by what they have in stores. I would like to see all the sets, professionally calibrated, side by side in a dark home theater environment playing the best blu-rays available. Until that happens, I would never ever make a decision or really even be influenced by the picture I see at stores.

Why spend the money on a thoroughbred when any old nag would suffice? Save yourself some dough, and just go pick up that Vizio at Wal-Mart. If that makes you happy, then great.

I think the pictures demonstrate that the Vizio is not an old hag.

The AR filter on the Kuro is doing nothing beyond rejecting light from outside of the display. that is what it is suppose to do. If it was doing anything beyond that, it would be picked up by calibration equipment.....equipment that is FAR more sensitve than your eyes.

More sensitive in what way?

Pioneer is definitely miles ahead of anyone else and their product will be missed.

I beg to differ, I don't regard Pioneer as being miles ahead anyone else. I just think that statement is inaccurate and not helpful to potential flat panel buyers.

One of the greatest example of how not to judge TV's in stores is Costco. Right when you walk in they have all the TV's right there, with the biggest ones the first to see. So, right in the front is the 6020fd, a 65" Sharp, a 58" Panny, and a 52" Sony. From the distance, the first thing you notice is how incredibly bright the Sharp and Sony's are. You notice how the Panny is quite a bit dimmer and the Kuro is incredibly dim compared to even the Panny. Now consider that the show they are playing is snowboarding and you can imagine how 'bad' the Kuro looks. I'm sure this instantly prevents 75% of shoppers from even considering the Kuro and probably half from considering the Panny.

As you walk closer, of course your eyes are drawn to the Sony and Sharp (two bright white screens with the Panny and Kuro in between). I knew right away that the Panny and Kuro would be the only options I would consider. When I stood 10' or so away, I could see how much better both of these plasmas are. You have the bright store lights glaring down and even with the reflections off the screen and the darker image, the plasmas are far superior. The fast moving snowboarder was so much clearer, the colors look so much better and overall just a superior picture. The Kuro just seems to have that extra clarity and natural appearance, by a slight edge over the Panny even in the bright store. Is that slight difference worth the $$, I don't know. Throw in the fact that none of these sets have been calibrated and I don't see how anyone with even the slightest bit of knowledge could pick LCD over plasma, yet so many do.

Now what if they had these sets, all calibrated to normal settings and in a dark area of the store. How would people's perceptions change? Would everyone be in awe over how much better the plasmas look? You just can't tell squat by what they have in stores. I would like to see all the sets, professionally calibrated, side by side in a dark home theater environment playing the best blu-rays available. Until that happens, I would never ever make a decision or really even be influenced by the picture I see at stores.

I was in a dim Magnolia when I made that particular observation and not a Costco. There is a difference. At any rate, I agree with you for the most part, that is why the majority of my comments have been based on having sets in my home.

Kurophiles portray a far greater gap than there actually is. Aside from blacks, the gap is much closer than people are led to believe on this forum. I will not back down from that, try as you may.

I beg to differ, I don't regard Pioneer as being miles ahead anyone else. I just think that statement is inaccurate and not helpful to potential flat panel buyers.

It really depends on the person. No one I know thinks there was any difference betwen the first plasma I owned (a Vizio VP42 -- not at all comparable to new Vizio plasmas which are much better) and the current one (Pioneer Elite 1150). They thought the Vizio looked incredible and think the Pioneer looks incredible.

More sensitive in what way?You don't know how your eye works compared to a spectroradiometer? You can easily fool your eye. Can't do that with a spectroradiometer.

It really depends on the person. No one I know thinks there was any difference betwen the first plasma I owned (a Vizio VP42 -- not at all comparable to new Vizio plasmas which are much better) and the current one (Pioneer Elite 1150). They thought the Vizio looked incredible and think the Pioneer looks incredible.

Every once in a while we get a grounded and thoughtful comment like this.

Thank You Chris

Where did you get a 70" Sony LCD and for how much? Holy moly, that thing must've cost a fortune.

Anyways, I think almost everyone would recommend the Elite based on PQ alone. If size is such an issue, have you looked into getting a projector at all? Or is the room too bright?

I got my Sony back in 2003/2004. The model is a KDF-70XBR950 and it's the last time Sony made an LCD that size. It cost me ~$6K, and I have an interested buyer for it @ $2K. It still performs awesome, but the best I can get is 720p/1080i resolution, which is fine for most people that couldn't care less about 1080p BluRay content.

I've got the itch, it's time to upgrade and I'm convinced in going with Plasma technology so I can benefit from the brighter, higher resolution PQ, especially when viewing 1080p content from my BluRay and HD-DVD library...

I was in a dim Magnolia when I made that particular observation and not a Costco. There is a difference. At any rate, I agree with you for the most part, that is why the majority of my comments have been based on having sets in my home.

Kurophiles portray a far greater gap than there actually is. Aside from blacks, the gap is much closer than people are led to believe on this forum. I will not back down from that, try as you may.


I agree with you...the gap is much smaller than many say. I just said that, I personally, believe the Kuro has a slight edge over the Panny. The way my eyes see it anyways, is that added depth in dark colors provides the extra clarity. Now is that edge worth thousands of dollars? In most cases, probably not. So adding in the cost factor, I believe the Panny has a slight overall edge. I was just pointing out an example how in a store like Costco plasmas really don't stand a chance. I walked around for 5 minutes and all I heard people saying was "I like how bright this one is." Not once did I hear someone say "look at how deep the blacks are" or "look at how natural the picture is" or "look at the detail on that guys coat." I heard one guy tell his wife, "I hear these Pioneers are really good" and she proceeded to say "Look how dark it is, but look at how bright this Sony is." They were about the same price and they instantly dismissed the Pioneer as an option. It's always, for the uneducated shoppers, look at how bright the picture is.

It really is a shame that the majority of people, probably not many in here thank God, only care about the brightness. Usually they get it home and really don't know any better so it's fine. But, if they had that bright LCD for a month then exchanged it for a plasma, I'm guessing the majority would be blown away by the better overall PQ of the plasma, whether it be Panny, Samsung, Pioneer or Vizio.

I wish I had a store like Magnolia around here. The only place where I can actually go look at a set in a theater like environment is AmericanTV, and even then they only have the biggest and best Elite on display so I can't even compare it with others.

I had a Panny 42pz85u which I am giving to my grandma since her 25 year old Zenith finally died. I ordered a Pio 5020fd and just got it yesterday. I choose the Pio because I was able to get it for only $100 more than the 50" 850 or 800. Once I have it broken in and tweaked the settings, I will be able to make an honest, same-material and room conditions comparison between the two. Honestly, I'm hoping the Pio is a lot better. Will I be surprised if it is only a little better, no. Will I be surprised if the 85's PQ is on par with the Pio, yes a little bit. Whatever the results, I will let everyone know.

Sorry, that's TC-50PS1. I'm not willing to say it looks as good as Kuro, but it is a big step up even from the 850 series. And this was in a Best Buy, out of the box.

For a while I thought the Samsung 650 and 760 series were catching up (maybe had caught) Panasonic, but the new models are quite impressive at the price.

Every once in a while we get a grounded and thoughtful comment like this.

Thank You Chris


I too believe everyone should get what they believe looks best. If you can't tell a difference between the Pioneer and Vizio, by all means get the Vizio and save yourself about %60. If you can't tell the difference between a Panny and a Pioneer, get the Panny and save %25-%50. When I got my pz85u, I was looking for bang for the buck which I got. The price I got on my 5020, I'm hoping it turns out to be a great bang for the buck.

I got my sister a 50" 720p Panny from Costo for $799 (sorry for the price but had to put it in perspective). Her and her husband, along with anyone who sees the set think it looks amazing. They were this - - close to buying a 47" Vizio lcd for about $900 from Wal-mart (a grand was the max). I convinced them to let me find a good deal on a plasma and when Costco had a $250 coupon that weekend only, I got them the Panny. They weren't too impressed with Charter HD or upconverted DVDs because I had the settings all really low for the break-in period. After 3 weeks when I visited them again, I calibrated the TV just by my eyes, hooked up my PS3 and we watched the Dark Knight on blu-ray. They couldn't believe how good it looked. Talk about bang for your buck, a 50" plasma for $800...doesn't get much better than that and I'm sure there are a lot of people who wouldn't be able to tell the difference between it and a $3000 Elite.

You don't know how your eye works compared to a spectroradiometer? You can easily fool your eye. Can't do that with a spectroradiometer.
But one's eyes are the conduit,one's brain the arbiter.

But one's eyes are the conduit,one's brain the arbiter.If that's the case, get any display and just eyeball the settings. Without a reference point, calibration equipment or another display beside it, your eyes will be pleased anyway. How do you think LCDs outsell plasmas????

You don't know how your eye works compared to a spectroradiometer? You can easily fool your eye. Can't do that with a spectroradiometer.

I know exactly how the two work. I do not equate the highly variable perceptual ability of the human vision system with its sensitivity, however. In fact, the eye is more sensitive than most meters. Actually, you may not fool a meter, but it might be very imprecise at levels where the eye may have no problem with sensitivity.

Perception is not the same thing as detection.

Actually, you may not fool a meter, but it might be very imprecise at levels where the eye may have no problem with sensitivity.This is dependent on equipment used.

Perception is not the same thing as detection.Duh

This is dependent on equipment used.

Duh

So rather than making statements that don't make any sense and that may mislead those that do not understand, be specific about what equipment you mean and what they conditions are when making statements like

"If it was doing anything beyond that, it would be picked up by calibration equipment.....equipment that is FAR more sensitve than your eyes. "

With respect to your "duh," you were the one who made the statement that confused the two issues.

You don't know how your eye works compared to a spectroradiometer? You can easily fool your eye. Can't do that with a spectroradiometer.


Then I guess the spectroradiometer will have a wonderful viewing experience then. Unfortunately I have to rely on my unworthy eyes to relay to my brain whether or not I like the picture.

Some Kurophiles allow you to berate them and then thank you for it. Maybe they are afraid you won’t give them free call settings anymore?

I am not sure where your abrasiveness comes from, but I for one don't care for it.

It is very clear that this forum is no place for opinions unless they include some sort of allegiance to Kuro as the undisputed king of everything visual. Eyes may be easily decieved, but peoples preferences and perceptions may be a bit more difficult.

If that's the case, get any display and just eyeball the settings. Without a reference point, calibration equipment or another display beside it, your eyes will be pleased anyway. How do you think LCDs outsell plasmas????
I am not denying that a calibration will optimise PQ,but it is the eye/brain combination which tells one if an image is too bright,or dark,if colours are overcooked,or anaemic,if contrast is too high,or low,etc.
How many people have even heard of ISF calibration?
As for LCDs outselling plasmas-it is a question of market penetration,and their being the only option in small screen sizes,and not necessarily people being pleased with inferior PQ.

I too believe everyone should get what they believe looks best. If you can't tell a difference between the Pioneer and Vizio, by all means get the Vizio and save yourself about %60.

I hear you fully. I just want to make a slight correction to this. It was never said or implied that I could see "no diff" between the two, only that the gap was less than you would expect from the kurophiles. It is when something this mundane is said that creates a firestorm of negative backlashes that ends up not even refering to what was actually said.

I am sure that is what you meant, just wanted to say that and thanks for your input. It is appreciated.

___________________

Maybe Dnice is actually a terminator. This would explain the brashness and tendency to calibrate based on raw numbers only and no regard for personal preference. Maybe he is a good terminator that was sent back to protect Kuro rep at all costs.

Every once in a while we get a grounded and thoughtful comment like this.

Thank You Chris

I hear you fully. I just want to make a slight correction to this. It was never said or implied that I could see "no diff" between the two, only that the gap was less than you would expect from the kurophiles. It is when something this mundane is said that creates a firestorm of negative backlashes that ends up not even refering to what was actually said.

I am sure that is what you meant, just wanted to say that and thanks for your input. It is appreciated.

___________________

Maybe Dnice is actually a terminator. This would explain the brashness and tendency to calibrate based on raw numbers only and no regard for personal preference. Maybe he is a good terminator that was sent back to protect Kuro rep at all costs.


Yeah I got ya. There may be a difference but maybe not a $2000 difference in the case of the Vizio.

I am not sure where your abrasiveness comes from, but I for one don't care for it.

D-Nice has helped thousands of people here obtain more accurate pictures from their displays than they would be able to do on their own, by investing his own time and effort, free of charge.

And so I could give a rat's ass about his bedside manner.

Yeah I got ya. There may be a difference but maybe not a $2000 difference in the case of the Vizio.


So yeah the difference in value is purely based on each individual. But see how easy it is for people like you and I to at least understand and be civil with each other? Wish it was always this easy.

For those that Private Message me similar thoughts, I won't mind if you back me up in public either. ;-)

D-Nice has helped thousands of people here obtain more accurate pictures from their displays than they would be able to do on their own, by investing his own time and effort, free of charge.

And so I could give a rat's ass about his bedside manner.

Some people take some amount abuse if it gets them something for free. Others may chose to pay a little bit of money in return for not being spoken down to. That is your purgative. I am sure Dnice is capable of defending himself and does not need you to speak for him. Looking back at your previous post history, you are nothing short of an E-thug, so I don't know that I have anything to talk about with you.

Maybe if it was someone that has helped "thousands" of people by helping build schools, or feeding homeless people, or working for a charity I would be more forgiving. We are talking about the picture on a TV.

So rather than making statements that don't make any sense and that may mislead those that do not understand, be specific about what equipment you mean and what they conditions are when making statements like My comments were directed towards YOU. Very few people here know the difference between a PR-655, Orb-100, PR-670, CS-2000 and i1pro. However you do. Keeping things as simplistic as possible by just saying spectroradiometer allows others who are not keen on different spectros to follow along.

"If it was doing anything beyond that, it would be picked up by calibration equipment.....equipment that is FAR more sensitve than your eyes. "

With respect to your "duh," you were the one who made the statement that confused the two issues.Perception and detection are two different items, yet they can go hand and hand. Your eyes can detect something and perceive what it has detected in the wrong manner. For instance, if one goes from looking at a 6504 Kelvin grayscaled white screen and then transitions to a 8500 Kelvin grayscaled white screen, your eyes will immediately detect the blue hue that the 8500 Kelvin screen has. Yet, if you watch it long enough, your eyes will perceive that 8500 Kelvin screen to be the correct white and trigger your brain to think its a very pleasing white. A spectroradiometer would never do that. 8500 Kelvin will always be too blue while 6504 Kelvin will aways be correct (per SMPTE-C and Rec709).

Now how you thought I had those two items confused is beyond me. Perhaps you were the one confused. If the above example went over your head, please let me know so that I can attempt to dumb it down even further than i already did.

And I continue to wonder, in amazement, how he picked the forum name of D-Nice.

Ironic isn't it?

Perhaps he misplaced the letter L for a D?

Then I guess the spectroradiometer will have a wonderful viewing experience then. Unfortunately I have to rely on my unworthy eyes to relay to my brain whether or not I like the picture.

Some Kurophiles allow you to berate them and then thank you for it. Maybe they are afraid you won’t give them free call settings anymore?

I am not sure where your abrasiveness comes from, but I for one don't care for it.

It is very clear that this forum is no place for opinions unless they include some sort of allegiance to Kuro as the undisputed king of everything visual. Eyes may be easily decieved, but peoples preferences and perceptions may be a bit more difficult.

Your totally right topper!!
We should all just say to heck with measurements and standards!
Who cares about that?
What matters is ones personal preference for a overbrightened torchy showroom setting!
Once upon a time standards and measurements meant something here at AVS.
But it seems lately that showroom pop means much more.

I for one miss the days when you could come here and televisions were judged by thier accuracy and which one conforms the closest to the standard.
We need this.
This is AV SCIENCE forum.
Not AV Preference Forum.
If measurements and standards cease to matter even here at AVS then heaven help us all.

Why not rename the thread "Let's pick on DNice." Can we get back on topic and off of DNice? TopperMcFly - I jumped to look at this thread for the lastest update with your Kuro, not to read a page of the stuff found above.

There is no spoon......

Then I guess the spectroradiometer will have a wonderful viewing experience then. Unfortunately I have to rely on my unworthy eyes to relay to my brain whether or not I like the picture.

Some Kurophiles allow you to berate them and then thank you for it. Maybe they are afraid you won’t give them free call settings anymore?

I am not sure where your abrasiveness comes from, but I for one don't care for it.

It is very clear that this forum is no place for opinions unless they include some sort of allegiance to Kuro as the undisputed king of everything visual. Eyes may be easily decieved, but peoples preferences and perceptions may be a bit more difficult.I have no tact and I've said that numerous times. Also, I do not sugar coat my posts. I say it how it is. If my posts offend you, man up and ignore them.

I'm not a Kurophile nor do I care for anyone who brown noses. I'm not interested in holding debates on subjective items that deal will personal preference. I'm the literal type who prefers objective items that can be substantiated and repeated by others. It's called science.

And I continue to wonder, in amazement, how he picked the forum name of D-Nice.

Ironic isn't it?

Perhaps he misplaced the letter L for a D?And here you go with your lame assumptions. I posted a few months ago exactly where the username D-Nice came from. You want to know where it came from, review my history. Otherwise, have a coke, smile and watch your old 9UK.

And here you go with your lame assumptions. I posted a few months ago exactly where the username D-Nice came from. You want to know where it came from, review my history. Otherwise, have a coke, smile and watch your old 9UK.

To be honest with you, I have no interest in seeking out your past posts nor your approval and yes I will enjoy my old (two year) 9UK. It's a great set, receives exceptional comments by those that view it and I'm happy to add it doesn't need your calibration comments.

But thanks for your interest.

To be honest with you, I have no interest in seeking out your past postsThen how about keeping my username out of your posts with your random and pathetic assumtions?

nor your approval and yes I will enjoy my old (two year) 9UK. It's a great set, receives exceptional comments by those that view it and I'm happy to add it doesn't need your calibration comments.

But thanks for your interest.Glad you enjoy your set. It's very nice and does very well after calibration (I've calibrated 20 of them). However, my comment about your display has nothing to do with what, once again, you assumed I was attempting to say.

BTW, you could not pay me enough $$$ to calibrate anything for you :eek: I want you to ALWAYS remember that.

if this bickering continues you will be asked to leave the thread

BTW, you could not pay me enough $$$ to calibrate anything for you :eek: I want you to ALWAYS remember that.


I wish I could get my 5020 calibrated. The fiance won't let me spend the couple hundred to do it though. :(

In my case, I'm already gone :) It's a waste of my time anyway.

**points finger at TopShelf17 for starting it**

Perception and detection are two different items, yet they can go hand and hand. Your eyes can detect something and perceive what it has detected in the wrong manner. For instance, if one goes from looking at a 6504 Kelvin grayscaled white screen and then transitions to a 8500 Kelvin grayscaled white screen, your eyes will immediately detect the blue hue that the 8500 Kelvin screen has. Yet, if you watch it long enough, your eyes will perceive that 8500 Kelvin screen to be the correct white and trigger your brain to think its a very pleasing white. A spectroradiometer would never do that. 8500 Kelvin will always be too blue while 6504 Kelvin will aways be correct (per SMPTE-C and Rec709).


Perception takes place in the brain , not in the eye.