This thread is FOR those posters interested in discussing:
Pioneer inventory issues
Pioneer warranty issues

This thread is NOT FOR:

discussing pricing
personal attacks
comparisons of Pioneer to other brands
Technical merits of Pioneer plasma displays


I posted the following information last Thurs on the day of Pioneer's announcement that they were getting out of the Plasma TV business. If you'd like to share information on inventory in your area or in general, thoughts on the risk or lack of risk regarding Pioneer's OEM warranties on Plasma TVs, or information you find on Pioneer's long term prospects as a company, this is the thread.

posted Thursday 2/12

Lot's of inventory:)
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For those that are interested, I stopped by a local BB this evening. Its a quiet night and the salesman opened the computer and shared both the information in inventory and his thoughts on the Pioneer "situation". He had heard about Pioneer getting our of the business this morning.

Here's some of the information regarding Pioneer inventory I gathered tonite from a 16 store district as well as the warehouse that serves these stores. He said the information is very accurate and that the warehouse is replenished 2x a week.

First that bad news. The 111's are gone as are the 5020's and there's no date for replinishment in the warehouse. There were several units located at a few stores however the salesman was confident that they were either display units or damaged units in storage.

This information aligns directly with everything everyone has said about the recent sale at BB which was supported by pricing from Pio. If you are looking for a 50" unit you should probably buy it when you can find it going forward (unless it turns out that Pio has some supply cache that needs to be dumped into the market which I doubt).

We did look outside this store's district at other individual store inventory for the 111's (couldn't see warehouse's outside his district) and there are units available in 1's & 2's at various stores however the price is back up to the normal pricing vs the discount pricing that others have posted.

UPDATE: since this original post it appears that the BB warehouses have been restocked to relatively high levels with the 50" Kuro (5020). Getting a 5020 should not be an issue at attractive values as of Monday Feb 16.

Now the good news. Next we checked the inventory of the 60" Pio's. There were 76 6020's in the warehouse and about another 14 in inventory at the various stores in this district. We also checked other districts and could see that there were around 15-20 units across the individual stores and I assume they probably had the same volume in their warehouse (another 60-70 in the other 17 store district).

Next we checked the 151 inventory. They had 17 in inventory at the warehouse and another 6 in the individual store inventory (plus another 25 that were either display units or damaged). We checked another district (not the warehouse) and there were generally around 7-8 151's in inventory across the stores in the other districts we looked at. I assume the other district probably had the same # in their warehouse ...15-20.

Last we checked the 141 inventory. There were 8 in the warehouse and 4 across the individual store inventory within the district. We checked other districts and there was generally around 3-5 in the individual store inventories.

In summary, there appears to be no inventory issues for the 50" or 60" Kuros within the BB inventory. Inventory of Elite models remains tighter.

I am now convinced that Pio played this correctly (from a business perspective) by dropping the 50" units first to clear that inventory knowing they were getting out of the plasma business and wanted to get as much inventory cleared of the lower priced units to cost conscious consumers before they made the big announcement today. Had they waited until after the announcement, they might have scared off some of these 50" consumers. Also if they had run the sale with the 50" and 60" units at the same time, they would have easily cleared the 60" and possibly not cleared enough of the 50's.

The salesman at this store believes this to be true and that they will likely now repeat the sale on the 60" units. The discount on the 50" was very significant and if the same % is applied to the 60", (you can calculate it for yourself by calling BB to get their current price and the recent sale price) it will be a very attractive price that will undoubtedly move the 60" inventory quickly according to the salesman. He felt that if a sale were to be held it might be in this Sunday or next Sunday's circular.

For me at least, this puts to rest any concern about inventory for the larger 60" Pios, at least for my area .

Not sure if this thread will make it that long, but I think Pio owners will be taken care of warranty wise....perhaps an EW is right for some also.

Pioneer exec touches on exit from plasma business (http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/02/16/pioneer-exec-touches-on-exit-from-plasma-business/)

Yeah, it seems like hopping off of the plasma bandwagon is the thing to be doing right now, but Pioneer's exit is startling in more than a few ways. For starters, the company has been pushing its KURO line as the PDP set to get for years, and by and large, it actually has been the best around. It's one thing to leave a market you aren't winning -- it's another entirely to drop off while you're on top. Bruce Schepers, Executive VP of Sales and Marketing at Pioneer Canada, sat down to speak on the departure with Marketnews. Granted, most of his conversation centered around that fact that no other parts of the company's businesses would be shrinking or vanishing, though he did mention that Pioneer would have ninth generation product "up until summer." He also affirmed that support wouldn't be waning for its heralded receivers and Blu-ray players, and that Sharp was a likely candidate for an optical-based joint venture. For the whole interview, give the read link a look.

Just another link...

Chris

For those interested, here are some key links to Pioneer's publicly disclosed financial information.


The announcement of Pioneer discontinuing their plasma business is only part of Pioneer's problems. The following link provides a summary of the business for the 9 months of their 2009 fiscal year. In this link you will read:

That Pio's inventories are up substantially (this inventory represents the value of all products not just plasmas)
Their car electronics business lost significant net income in Oct/Nov/Dec. 2008
And they are now forecasting a doubling of the projected loss for FY 2009
http://pioneer.jp/corp/ir/library/an...lide_3q09e.pdf

Here's their latest restructuring plans in simplified format. These presentations go through enormous legal scrutiny so if any documentation is to be believed by those on this thread, these are the one's. All other news on Pioneer's financials and plasma business come from these sources. For those interested, this presentation clearly outlines that the US Plasma Production facilities will remain in production through the end of April 2009.
http://pioneer.jp/corp/ir/library/an...e_3q09e_02.pdf

Summary of their financials. These results describe that Pioneer is unlikely to be an independently operating entity within only a few more quarters. They have burned through half the operating cash they had available at the start of April 2008 by the time they reached the end of 2008. Assuming that Jan and Feb have been even worse, they will likely be out of operating cash sometime this summer or sooner. Without a massive cash infusion they are essentially gone. In this economic climate there will be few banks that will lend to a company with this balance sheet.
http://pioneer.jp/press-e/2009/pdf/release_3q09e.pdf

Lastly, the Board of Directors have decided to change their accounting principles from US GAAP to Japanese GAAP as a follow-up to Pioneer being de-listed from the NY Stock Exchange. This is also a very bad signal.
http://pioneer.jp/press-e/2009/pdf/release_3q09e_03.pdf

Thanks heat!

Chris

Interesting article...

Pioneer exec touches on exit from plasma business (http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/02/16/pioneer-exec-touches-on-exit-from-plasma-business/)

Yeah, it seems like hopping off of the plasma bandwagon is the thing to be doing right now, but Pioneer's exit is startling in more than a few ways. For starters, the company has been pushing its KURO line as the PDP set to get for years, and by and large, it actually has been the best around. It's one thing to leave a market you aren't winning -- it's another entirely to drop off while you're on top. Bruce Schepers, Executive VP of Sales and Marketing at Pioneer Canada, sat down to speak on the departure with Marketnews. Granted, most of his conversation centered around that fact that no other parts of the company's businesses would be shrinking or vanishing, though he did mention that Pioneer would have ninth generation product "up until summer." He also affirmed that support wouldn't be waning for its heralded receivers and Blu-ray players, and that Sharp was a likely candidate for an optical-based joint venture. For the whole interview, give the read link a look.

Just another link...

Chris

I am having a real hard time deciding on wether to get a 151 or just wait a couple years and see what Panny comes out with. I am in a position to purchase a 151 now, but the support really makes me think twice about it.

Look at this quote

"He adds that 12-volt will indeed remain an important part of the business, with engineering resources moving from the display side to the mobile side."

Doesn't Pioneer know that the auto industry is starting to go backwards. Ford, GM, and Chrysler are not in the best shape. Now include Nissan. Not sure if they plan on targeting high end car audio retail stores or installers.

Chris

Look at this quote

"He adds that 12-volt will indeed remain an important part of the business, with engineering resources moving from the display side to the mobile side."

Doesn't Pioneer know that the auto industry is starting to go backwards. Ford, GM, and Chrysler are not in the best shape. Now include Nissan. Not sure if they plan on targeting high end car audio retail stores or installers.

Chris


I think that given the current health and direction of the overall auto industry Pioneer's new direction to focus on the 12 volt car audio business could be a real challenge.

I am having a real hard time deciding on wether to get a 151 or just wait a couple years and see what Panny comes out with. I am in a position to purchase a 151 now, but the support really makes me think twice about it.

If you have confidence within the technological market on advancement, there is no need to panic at this point. Most people want to enjoy the last of Pioneer's PDP technology with a Elite or Non-Elite, although I believe there is a manufacturer that could possibly deliver the performance by 2010. ;)

Chris

I think that given the current health and direction of the overall auto industry Pioneer's new direction to focus on the 12 volt car audio business could be a real challenge.

I agree. I am not sure why they are optimistic on doing well with car audio products.

Chris

I wanted to get Heat's perspective on why Pioneer or retailers are holding on to inventory? In the case of the 6020, why are they blowing them out right now?

This thread is FOR those posters interested in discussing:
Pioneer inventory issues
Pioneer warranty issues
I have 7 months left to go on the warranty for my PRO-150FD and I will receive a new two-year warranty for an SC-07 receiver I purchased last Saturday. I am reasonably confident that Pioneer will remain in the home electronics industry for many years to come and continue to honor all of their warranties for the products they sell. In terms of buying a last of its kind Kuro brand PDP or perhaps any other 'Elite' class A/V component, I think it is basically a now or never kind of deal; which is why I recently pulled the trigger for an SC-07 AVR w/free HDMI cable.

I wanted to get Heat's perspective on why Pioneer or retailers are holding on to inventory? In the case of the 6020, why are they blowing them out right now?

My personal belief is that they need to clear out more 50" display inventory. I saw numerous ads for the 5020 and 111 at deep discounts in the local papers this Sunday. I can't believe these ads would run unless they had inventory to burn up. There was also one ad for the 6020 but it was just abit under MSRP which I interpret that they want to keep the larger display high until the 50" inventory is used up.

If they don't keep the 60" price high for now, they won't be able to get rid of their 50" inventory or they'll have to make even more margin sacrifice later. If you're interested in the 50" display, the timing may not get better than now given the modest inventory.

Once the 50" displays are gone, I doubt they'll be replaced. Once the 50" inventory is used up, then they'll look at what needs to be done in the way of incentives to clear out the 60" inventory with the goal of maximizing units sold before the end of March. Once again, this is just my opinion based on observation of advertising and a finite supply of product from a company getting out of that business.

What is Pioneer's current manufacturing output, and how do those numbers taper off as the various plants shut down over time?

What is Pioneer's current manufacturing output, and how do those numbers taper off as the various plants shut down over time?


Great question however I think it would be nearly impossible to find out. Nothing that specific is described in the Investor Relations page of Pioneer. All they have outlined is that the last Japanese Plasma plant will be shutdown in March and the last non-Japanese Plasma plant (US) will be shutdown by the end of April. No futher detail has been provided so far on what products each plant makes or what their ramp-down production schedule will look like.

If others find more information on production location and volumes...please share.

Can this be true? I just asked my local BB about inventory and he shared that the warehouse just got in 256 PDP-5020FDs to go with the current published sale. Once again this is a warehouse that supports 16 individual stores.

I thought the inventory was about wiped out on the 50" but I guess the ads this past weekend would go along with the new inventory that was just added to the warehouse.

I asked him to check his #s and he assured me it was correct. Are others seeing this kind of inventory availability on the 50" Kuro?

Heatwave3, I checked my area BB this morning and saw about 426 5020 KURO sitting at the warehouse. However, I did not see any inventory for 111 or 151. I also saw 12 orders were placed on 111.

Heatwave3, I checked my area BB this morning and saw about 426 5020 KURO sitting at the warehouse. However, I did not see any inventory for 111 or 151. I also saw 12 orders were placed on 111.

That's a significant inventory in your area for the 5020. Explains the incentives being advertised.

There were still 10 - 151s and 71 - 6020s in the local BB warehouse, so while the larger display inventory is moving down its certainly not at a breakneck pace. It'll be interesting to see if they end up adding inventory for the 60" displays in the coming days/weeks like they just did for the 50". That will then tell us that Pioneer is still pushing product through the pipeline and any risk of running out in the near future becomes less of a concern.

Can this be true? I just asked my local BB about inventory and he shared that the warehouse just got in 256 PDP-5020FDs to go with the current published sale. Once again this is a warehouse that supports 16 individual stores.

I thought the inventory was about wiped out on the 50" but I guess the ads this past weekend would go along with the new inventory that was just added to the warehouse.

I asked him to check his #s and he assured me it was correct. Are others seeing this kind of inventory availability on the 50" Kuro?

I am trying to follow where this discussion is going to lead to...

I cannot seem to understand why current inventory levels are important to anyone who is going to buy a Pioneer TV.

If you can find one at a fair/good price (which I think the 50" are at), then one should buy it and the deal is done.
Speculating or trying to measure inventory of these units will only lead to unecessary stress.

I believe that Pioneer has inventory...and will have some to last for awhile...how long is 'awhile' nobody knows.

Inventory matters because of three things:

1.) Pricing. Is NOW the time to buy or will there be more on the way and a need to clear them out (and thus, deeper discounts)? Is it better to buy now and figure the extra couple $100 won't matter, or will the discounts go more than $500 off of current prices?

2.) Timing. Similar to #1, if the inventory is running out, then now IS the time to buy, regardless of what COULD be coming down the pike.

3.) Timing/Pricing on the 60" models. If heatwave is right about needing to clear out the 50s before the 60s start moving (and I'd bet he is on this one), then the question becomes do you buy a 50" now or hold out for a 60" at a discounted price?

I think all of this is likely to happen fairly quickly (when you get down to it) and over the next month or so, so the decision shouldn't take anyone very long. Isn't April 1 the end of Q1 2009, which means yet more SEC financial postings/reports? (I think it's the 10Q.) If so, Pioneer will want to show that they are moving product and minimizing losses. That could accompany some real discounts. What's more, retailers will be doing the same thing.


For me, I'm still on the fence about buying a Pioneer at this point. While they claim to be able to provide parts and service for years to come even though they aren't making new sets, if the company DOES go belly-up (a possibility, although the % on that I have no idea), who's going to step up and say "We'll take that inventory and honor those warranties"?

To my way of thinking, if I spend anything over $1000 on something, I want to know that I will get reliable service going forward. When we're talking current list prices of nearly $6K at some stores, you bet your bippy I want to KNOW that I'm covered for any kind of damages or replacements. Yes, the set may be beautiful but that doesn't do squat for me if the cat takes a flying leap and knocks it over,or someone throws a Wii remote into it, or some circuit board shorts out. I want to know I won't have a $6000 paperweight, ya know?

On the other hand, if I can snag one in the $3000 range, that MIGHT be something I'd be willing to roll the dice on. Personally, I'm not buying a 50" right now and will be holding out for a 60", depending on where their prices go.


But anyway, that's why inventory matters. :)

I am trying to follow where this discussion is going to lead to...


If you can find one at a fair/good price (which I think the 50" are at), then one whould buy it and the deal is done.
Speculating or trying to measure inventory of these units will only lead to unecessary stress.

I believe that Pioneer has inventory...and will have some to last for awhile...how long is 'awhile' nobody knows.

Well said!

Not sure if this thread will make it that long, but I think Pio owners will be taken care of warranty wise....perhaps an EW is right for some also.

Doubt it will last long myself but we will see. As I mentioned many times judging inventory by one company is not that accurate ;)

Well done...my sentiments exactly...good to see that there are others that fully appreciate supply and demand of an expensive, finite product with an uncertain future as it relates to support, warranty and parts:)

Pio's Fiscal Year goes from March 31 to March 31, so the end of next month with be the end of sales to be posted to their earning report for FY 2009. This will be the most important FY earnings report in the company's history and they will undoubtedly chase after any and all revenue they can to be posted in FY2009.

Its not going to help them much to post in FY 2010 if they continue to post significant losses, plus they'll be out of the plasma business and revenues from display products will be "orphans". They are going to want to make as many plasma displays as they can with the parts inventory they already have on-hand and get those units to the "bottom line" by March 31.

To those shopping for a new plasma display, there could be no better time to get a Pioneer then during the next 4-6 weeks. It'll all come down to risk-tolerance of buying a product-line that's about to be discontinued from a company in financial trouble vs the value of the product based on incentives they offer to buy it.


Inventory matters because of three things:

1.) Pricing. Is NOW the time to buy or will there be more on the way and a need to clear them out (and thus, deeper discounts)? Is it better to buy now and figure the extra couple $100 won't matter, or will the discounts go more than $500 off of current prices?

2.) Timing. Similar to #1, if the inventory is running out, then now IS the time to buy, regardless of what COULD be coming down the pike.

3.) Timing/Pricing on the 60" models. If heatwave is right about needing to clear out the 50s before the 60s start moving (and I'd bet he is on this one), then the question becomes do you buy a 50" now or hold out for a 60" at a discounted price?

I think all of this is likely to happen fairly quickly (when you get down to it) and over the next month or so, so the decision shouldn't take anyone very long. Isn't April 1 the end of Q1 2009, which means yet more SEC financial postings/reports? (I think it's the 10Q.) If so, Pioneer will want to show that they are moving product and minimizing losses. That could accompany some real discounts. What's more, retailers will be doing the same thing.


For me, I'm still on the fence about buying a Pioneer at this point. While they claim to be able to provide parts and service for years to come even though they aren't making new sets, if the company DOES go belly-up (a possibility, although the % on that I have no idea), who's going to step up and say "We'll take that inventory and honor those warranties"?

To my way of thinking, if I spend anything over $1000 on something, I want to know that I will get reliable service going forward. When we're talking current list prices of nearly $6K at some stores, you bet your bippy I want to KNOW that I'm covered for any kind of damages or replacements. Yes, the set may be beautiful but that doesn't do squat for me if the cat takes a flying leap and knocks it over,or someone throws a Wii remote into it, or some circuit board shorts out. I want to know I won't have a $6000 paperweight, ya know?

On the other hand, if I can snag one in the $3000 range, that MIGHT be something I'd be willing to roll the dice on. Personally, I'm not buying a 50" right now and will be holding out for a 60", depending on where their prices go.


But anyway, that's why inventory matters. :)

From what I understand Pioneer's plasma plants are still manufacturing plasma tvs.
If this is so,how many tvs do they produce a day?

I joined here a couple a weeks back in search of a new flat screen and have been absorbing all the great info. Thanks to everyone for all your wealth of knowledge/experience in helping me make the best decision for my particular situation. Well, I Pulled the trigger this past Sat. 2/14 and bought a 5020 from BB. They did not have any in stock and had to order one. The inventory for Ohio's BB regional distribution center was 375 on Sat. and the Salesmen said he had sold approx. 6 5020's in the past couple days. I know we are not supposed to discuss pricing, but I can it pass up telling what a great deal I got. I was able to work the salesmen down to ***. So, there is no way I could pass up such a great deal! Again thanks to everyone for your indirect help.

From what I understand Pioneer's plasma plants are still manufacturing plasma tvs.
If this is so,how many tvs do they produce a day?

From what I have been told they are NOT producing anymore so whats out there is out there.

From what I have been told they are NOT producing anymore so whats out there is out there.

I was mis-informed then.
Thanks for the clarification Roman.

im waiting to find out if the 151 gets its justified price drop in the next month. if i like what i see, i will buy. if not, the 9uk will be off the chopping block for a few more years.

im waiting to find out if the 151 gets its justified price drop in the next month. if i like what i see, i will buy. if not, the 9uk will be off the chopping block for a few more years.

The big question is, will it be enough inventory for the 151 next month to justify a price drop?
It's hard to answer.

Thanks for all the analysis, heatwave3 and others. Another good thread. Hopefully, this one won't be closed.

The big question is, will it be enough inventory for the 151 next month to justify a price drop?
It's hard to answer.

Thats exactly my point. If they drop the price thats OK but I dont see that happening and I only been wrong once in many years but we know now why I was wrong with the 111's, they were getting out of the display bus.

I was mis-informed then.
Thanks for the clarification Roman.

I believe the information you got regarding the BB warehouse inventory appears in-line with the inventory at other BB warehouses. It also appears that a large "block" of inventory was released to BB this past weekend. It looks like the range is between 250-450 individual 5020 units per warehouse (posted so far), which I believe is alot of 50" units to be in inventory.

It would now appear there is no issue with getting a 50" Kuro for many weeks to come based on the information being posted. You should check your own BB warehouse and the AVS sponsors before assuming inventories are equally high for your area.

What about the inventory for the 111? This is tough, jump in now or wait a bit for the best possible price. I hope BB has a price protection policy.

What about the inventory for the 111? This is tough, jump in now or wait a bit for the best possible price. I hope BB has a price protection policy.

Ok let me ask this question. If you were Pioneer and BB or whatever dealer and their units are selling more than I can remember and you are not producing them anymore would you drop the price???

I just got back from checking inventory on the 60" sets at BB. My BB is quite small, so they do not have a Magnolia, but the guy was able to check a Magnolia store and the district warehouse. At my store, they had 1 6020 and 17 at the warehouse. For 151s the closest Magnolia has 4 151s and another 17 at the warehouse.

As the salesman put it - we are "pretty flushed" with inventory on both sets - especially 151s.

Thanks to heatwave for putting this thread together as it really helps in my purchasing decision. If the prices do not drop on these given the inventories I'd be surprised, but not disappointed, it is after all just a TV....:)

Ok let me ask this question. If you were Pioneer and BB or whatever dealer and their units are selling more than I can remember and you are not producing them anymore would you drop the price???

Under normal circumstances the answer would be no. The wild card variable is the need for cash by Pioneer. They need it now, they need alot of it and they need it before March 31.

If it turns out that there isn't much inventory on anything then it should turn out to be a bonanza for retailers since they will be able to charge whatever the market will bear. That does not appear to be the case given the promotions currently being run to reduce inventory. And with the recent numbers being shared on 50" (5020) inventory, running out should be the least of anyone's problems right now.

Time will certainly tell and a civil discussion on the topic is what this thread is about (not suggesting anyone's post hasn't been civil, just want to ensure everyone continues on that path:)

Heatwave, in the other thread it seemed like you were clear that a 9G Kuro wasn't for you and that Pioneer was, according to you as well, teetering on bankruptcy.

Now you say this thread is for people concerned with Pioneer inventory issues and Pioneer warranty issues.

How can either of those things apply to you?

Maybe you should add "this thread is for trolls looking to spread fear, uncertainty, and doubt (FUD)".

Can this be true? I just asked my local BB about inventory and he shared that the warehouse just got in 256 PDP-5020FDs to go with the current published sale. Once again this is a warehouse that supports 16 individual stores.

I thought the inventory was about wiped out on the 50" but I guess the ads this past weekend would go along with the new inventory that was just added to the warehouse.

I asked him to check his #s and he assured me it was correct. Are others seeing this kind of inventory availability on the 50" Kuro?Perhaps Pioneer is beginning to dump their remaining inventory of PDPs beginning with the 5020, which is why BB can afford to carry that level of inventory for resale. My advice to the last of the Kuro faithful/hopeful who are in the market for a new PDP is to buy yours sooner than later because they are going… going… gone.

To be clear, I'm currently shopping for a Pio 9G for my home theater therefore the topics of inventory and warranties are of keen interest to me...and given Pioneer's exit from the plasma business..... both of these topics appear to be of strong interest to others based on the PMs I've received. You'll not be able to find a single post from me anywhere suggesting I was not interested in a 9G, other than the first few days after joining AVS where my original intention was to learn more about the Sharp 65SE.

Ok let me ask this question. If you were Pioneer and BB or whatever dealer and their units are selling more than I can remember and you are not producing them anymore would you drop the price???

Yup :D

Point taken

Ok let me ask this question. If you were Pioneer and BB or whatever dealer and their units are selling more than I can remember and you are not producing them anymore would you drop the price???

Can I answer a question with a question?.....How do you explain the pricing at the very top of this thread in the google ads for Pioneer 5020s, 111s, 6020s and 151s? It would appear they are all lower as advertised here on AVS that they were just a week or so ago. It wouldn't seem to make sense to have lower advertised prices here on AVS if there was no inventory and everyone was running out to buy one of the Pio 9Gs.

Can I answer a question with a question?.....How do you explain the pricing at the very top of this thread in the google ads for Pioneer 5020s, 111s, 6020s and 151s? It would appear they are all lower as advertised here on AVS that they were just a week or so ago. It wouldn't seem to make sense to have lower advertised prices here on AVS if there was no inventory and everyone was running out to buy one of the Pio 9Gs.Let me answer: This thread is on the verge of being closed. Mods are trying to be nice and allow help and support in finding a dwindling product but this is not an excuse for a free for all. I've already deleted one of your posts discussing a sale. If this thread does not stick to the topic and DROP all price issues it will simply be closed or deleted altogether. So please folks just enjoy the thread, follow the rules regarding pricing deals and sales, keep on topic and keep the bickering to an extreme minimum.

Thank you !!

w

Sorry W :(

I think that this post is important and relevant for those sitting on the fence, sometimes it is just not about the $$$ but the timing, with everything going on with the economy and the job market I am sure that a number of members would like to have updated info to guage the last possible moment that they would have to jump in. There is no doubt in my mind that some are reluctantly purchasing way ahead of their original schedule.

Speaking for myself I was interested towards the end of summer, like others, that has to be reevaluated.

To help matters I have access to weekly inventory updates at 6th Ave electronics a 14 store chain in the NY-NJ metro area, they are a Amazon seller and a major seller of closeout items it is a specialty of theirs.

I am not touting nor recommending them, if anything if you are ready go to A forum sponsor for without them there wouldn't be a forum

current inventory as of 1 hr ago

5020 = 35 ( last week they had over 200 but they are also almost $400 less than BB sale price) computer shows no more incoming

6020 = 55 (none incoming)

111elite = 137 (none incoming)

151 = 124 (none incoming)

Unless the incoming picture changes this may be the end especially coming fro a place that loves closeouts and Adv extremely low prices and then depend on the salespeople to do what they do best and sell everything cables, stands, blue rays etc.

Hope this adds to the overall picture of inventory nationwide and assist those that for whatever reason want to wait for awhile.

I will buy a 6020 as soon as Amazon cuts about $500 or another Vendor beats them to it. Happy to wait it out.

It seems from BB Inventory in California that there are less 151's in the pipeline so less likely to discount but a higher Inventory of 6020's so do not believe Vendors in this forum who try to mislead on 6020 shortages to justify higher prices. Price/Risk Equation I am willing to buy at 6020 at 500 Under Amazon's price but if not, cool I will take a V10 Panny 58inch or 65inch and lose a little blackness but have peace of mind that I can get service for 8 years

Be patient and your Pio 6020 will come to you at the right price, he who blinks first loses :>)

I think that this post is important and relevant for those sitting on the fence, sometimes it is just not about the $$$ but the timing, with everything going on with the economy and the job market I am sure that a number of members would like to have updated info to guage the last possible moment that they would have to jump in. There is no doubt in my mind that some are reluctantly purchasing way ahead of their original schedule.

Speaking for myself I was interested towards the end of summer, like others, that has to be reevaluated.

To help matters I have access to weekly inventory updates at 6th Ave electronics a 14 store chain in the NY-NJ metro area, they are a Amazon seller and a major seller of closeout items it is a specialty of theirs.

I am not touting nor recommending them, if anything if you are ready go to A forum sponsor for without them there wouldn't be a forum

current inventory as of 1 hr ago

5020 = 35 ( last week they had over 200 but they are also almost $400 less than BB sale price) computer shows no more incoming

6020 = 55 (none incoming)

111elite = 137 (none incoming)

151 = 124 (none incoming)

Unless the incoming picture changes this may be the end especially coming fro a place that loves closeouts and Adv extremely low prices and then depend on the salespeople to do what they do best and sell everything cables, stands, blue rays etc.

Hope this adds to the overall picture of inventory nationwide and assist those that for whatever reason want to wait for awhile.

Thanks Hollywood..that's very helpful. Any updates you can offer over time would be appreciated.

Gtarr just so I am clear when I speak about QTY's I am talking about Elites only.

any further waiting on price drops on te 50" elites and kuros is pointless. its already low enough and i cant see it getting any lower with the way they are moving as of now. as for us 60" guys, the wait is on. im suspecting pio still considers the 60" a bigger niche market than the 50" range, so those will be the last to go. seems the 50" are flying off the shelves and the 60" are less than business as usual due to the price drops on the 50" sets. pioneer sees what works, and it will happen with the larger sets. they may drop the prices on the 6020 first, then the elites, or both together. pio wants to make as much money on these sets as they possibly can and thats why nothing has happened yet. push will come to shove and moves will be made. if they can get one goof to buy a 151 at current price thats more money in their pocket. if you ask me, the wallets are speaking for themselves right now and the outcome is unevitable under pios circumstances as of now. given the extremely large price gap between the 50 and 60 inchers (kuro and elites respectively) theres definently room for improvement.

According to Robert at VE, Pio is going to be making them in Japan until Aug.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52570&page=3

According to Robert at VE, Pio is going to be making them in Japan until Aug.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52570&page=3

Hopefully Robert is correct. It seems like there are so many different versions of what is going on out there. I would like to get a 151 but was hoping to wait till about June to do it. If they continue to make some I'll probably be ok and can get one then but if they don't I might not be so lucky.

Jim

thanks for all the analysis, heatwave3 and others. Another good thread. Hopefully, this one won't be closed.

+1.

Heatwave, in the other thread it seemed like you were clear that a 9G Kuro wasn't for you and that Pioneer was, according to you as well, teetering on bankruptcy.

Now you say this thread is for people concerned with Pioneer inventory issues and Pioneer warranty issues.

How can either of those things apply to you?

Maybe you should add "this thread is for trolls looking to spread fear, uncertainty, and doubt (FUD)".

Please don't derail this thread. I am always interested in keeping up the latest news, and the general state of the Tech.

Tech and finance, both current and emerging, are always interrelated.

eg, No money = no R&D. Or, no money = a particular manufacturing process is dropped, or substituted with a cheaper one.

Or, no money = no effect on the Tech. All these things should be able to be discussed.

Hopefully Robert is correct. It seems like there are so many different versions of what is going on out there. I would like to get a 151 but was hoping to wait till about June to do it. If they continue to make some I'll probably be ok and can get one then but if they don't I might not be so lucky.

Jim

I believe the real authority on when the plasma production plants will be shutdown is Pioneer themselves. Pioneer's President posted the following plasma plant shutdown schedule on their investor website on Feb. 12, 2009.
http://pioneer.jp/corp/ir/library/announcement/fy2009/pdf/slide_3q09e_02.pdf

I believe the real authority on when the plasma production plants will be shutdown is Pioneer themselves. Pioneer's President posted the following plasma plant shutdown schedule on their investor website on Feb. 12, 2009.
http://pioneer.jp/corp/ir/library/announcement/fy2009/pdf/slide_3q09e_02.pdf

According to that post from Pioneer, April is the end of US production. One thing that has not been talked about that I think is very exciting is their plan for set top cable boxes. If they implemented a little of that 10G picture processing in the boxes it could be a bonanza for Pioneer and the cable company. They would have to go to high speed automation to make money.

Ok let me ask this question. If you were Pioneer and BB or whatever dealer and their units are selling more than I can remember and you are not producing them anymore would you drop the price???

All I know is that 6th Ave. had 14 141's in their warehouse last week and I went back the other day and they still had 14 141's in the warehouse. So, they are moving 50's but it seems the 60's are not moving so fast. It gives me hope that once the 50's are near gone there will be some movement on the 60" pricing. I am one of those that will only jump on this sinking ship if the price is right. Getting a "great" price is the only way I could justify making the purchase given Pioneer's present financial predicament.

I decided to jump off the fence and make the 6020 purchase today. My thinking (perhaps faulty, but it's mine :p):
- The Kuro's are the best of available technology; I drop my man card and swoon every time I see one
- Service spares are already in the channel and shouldn't be any more an issue, for example, than last year's Panny
- 6020 prices could go up, down, or hold; I have good arguments for each
- Available units can go nowhere but down
- If I *do* have an out-of-box problem, I don't want scarce full-unit replacement to be an issue for my reseller
- I like the unit and don't like playing the indecisive waiting game!

I do feel bad for Pioneer - the numbers don't look good for their long-term survival. I cannot imagine what my company's profits would look like with a 38% drop in global revenues. We'd be bleeding red ink just like Pioneer. :eek::(

All I know is that 6th Ave. had 14 141's in their warehouse last week and I went back the other day and they still had 14 141's in the warehouse. So, they are moving 50's but it seems the 60's are not moving so fast. It gives me hope that once the 50's are near gone there will be some movement on the 60" pricing. I am one of those that will only jump on this sinking ship if the price is right. Getting a "great" price is the only way I could justify making the purchase given Pioneer's present financial predicament.

60's are moving just as fast as 50's, but 141's dont move as fast obviously

I decided to jump off the fence and make the 6020 purchase today. My thinking (perhaps faulty, but it's mine :p):
- The Kuro's are the best of available technology; I drop my man card and swoon every time I see one
- Service spares are already in the channel and shouldn't be any more an issue, for example, than last year's Panny
- 6020 prices could go up, down, or hold; I have good arguments for each
- Available units can go nowhere but down
- If I *do* have an out-of-box problem, I don't want scarce full-unit replacement to be an issue for my reseller
- I like the unit and don't like playing the indecisive waiting game!

I do feel bad for Pioneer - the numbers don't look good for their long-term survival. I cannot imagine what my company's profits would look like with a 42% drop in revenues. We'd be bleeding red ink just like Pioneer. :eek::(

Congratulations...each consumer makes his judgment of what value means to them and so long as you're satisfied then no one is in a position to challenge you're decision-making. Enjoy your new Kuro:)

Great thread Heatwave. I just heard on the news that Japan's stock market took the biggest drop in 35 years. I really don't think Pioneer as a company is going to make it unless someone comes in and gives them some help. On top of this Panasonic is having trouble.

So the consideration is buying an expensive product from a manufacturer that may not be in business in a few years and from a technology whose future is indoubt also.

On top of this the world economy is in shaky. So this adds to the question of purchasing a high ticket item at this time.

For me it's a drastic price reduction or no sale. The inventory situation is very important. If the units start moving at close to regular prices well so be it. I will wait for the newest Panasonic or go with FP. If the inventory stays static and if what you say about March 31st proves to be correct then we can expect some big price reductions to get them out of the inventory between now and then.

For me it's a drastic price reduction or no sale. The inventory situation is very important. If the units start moving at close to regular prices well so be it. I will wait for the newest Panasonic or go with FP. If the inventory stays static and if what you say about March 31st proves to be correct then we can expect some big price reductions to get them out of the inventory between now and then.

All valid points. :)

"Progress With Restructuring Measures Under Way

Closure of panel production facilities in Japan Planned for completion by March 31, 2009

Closure of overseas plasma display production facilities U.S. production facility (production scheduled to end in April 2009)"

Individuals who play the Kuro waiting game a bit too long are likely find themselves being shut out altogether a couple of months from now.

If there are any Pioneer PDPs left by May the prices are likely to go up for the remaining units.

"Progress With Restructuring Measures Under Way

Closure of panel production facilities in Japan Planned for completion by March 31, 2009

Closure of overseas plasma display production facilities U.S. production facility (production scheduled to end in April 2009)"

Individuals who play the Kuro waiting game a bit too long are likely find themselves being shut out altogether a couple of months from now.

If there are any Pioneer PDPs left by May the prices are likely to go up for the remaining units.

So how many panels a day do they build? 100? 200? 500?

Ok let me ask this question. If you were Pioneer and BB or whatever dealer and their units are selling more than I can remember and you are not producing them anymore would you drop the price???

Under normal circumstances the answer would be no. The wild card variable is the need for cash by Pioneer. They need it now, they need alot of it and they need it before March 31.

If it turns out that there isn't much inventory on anything then it should turn out to be a bonanza for retailers since they will be able to charge whatever the market will bear. That does not appear to be the case given the promotions currently being run to reduce inventory. And with the recent numbers being shared on 50" (5020) inventory, running out should be the least of anyone's problems right now.

Time will certainly tell and a civil discussion on the topic is what this thread is about (not suggesting anyone's post hasn't been civil, just want to ensure everyone continues on that path:)

Heatwave's response is pretty much my take on the situation. The big wildcard here is the end of Q1 financial reports for publicly traded companies. Any of the big retailers AND Pio will both have to release their 10Q quarterly report, and that will affect investor confidence. If they can show that they're minimizing losses and actually have some cash on hand (from sales) then that would presumably cut in their favor (although other issues could undercut that).

Towards that end, moving product is going to be important. I expect to see some March sales. I also expect that, across the board (not just with Pio), you'll see price cuts on items in an effort to clear out inventory and bolster cash. Obviously there's a floor to how low they'll go, and that floor is LIKELY profitability, so I don't expect to see drastic discounts on the 60" sets for Pio.

I mean, Roman, you're a retailer yourself, so ask yourself this: would you take a loss on a TV to bolster cash in the short run? That's the real question and I suppose each retailer will decide that differently.

This brings up another question. Pio sells its sets to guys like you, who then sell them to guys like me, right? So, if we assume that the recent flood of 50" sets probably ALREADY came at a discount from Pio, that would mean that retailers could afford to cut more off the price. In which case, I suppose the calculus is that a retailer will make up on volume what they lose on the inventory purchased before Pio cut their prices to retailers.

Anyway, the telling point for me are the reports of no major influxes of 60" displays. That suggests to me that there is room for the price point there to move IF Pio decides to start cutting prices to its dealers. But again, the wildcard becomes Pio getting out of the display business which may encourage retailers to say "Ah, screw it. Just get 'em off the lot" and slash prices. Again, I'd figure that's up to each individual dealer and their accountants.


In the end, the REAL wildcard will be the consumer. Will they recognize the picture quality enhancements of a Pioneer at, say, a Best Buy and shell out the cash for it? Will the Best Buy sales people be pushing the Pios? After all, they have other vendors and other inventory to clear out too. And will those few consumers in the know (I suspect purchasers who know of Pioneer's departure from PDP mfging and who have bothered to pay attention to Pio's overall financials are few and far between) be willing to shell out upwards of $2000 for a product that may or may not be supported in five years?

Personally, I'm still struggling with my own internal "trigger pressure" point, and am starting to question if there even IS a point at which I'll buy a Pio. Not because they aren't awesome displays, but because of the value I personally place on service and because I intend to get at least 7 years out of the set. But that's my own issue. I suspect that if the price of a 60" came down enough, I'd still bite. The question is simply what is "enough".

The warranty issue has really got me thinking about another Pio. I already bought a 6020 over the summer and I love the set, and was thinking of another one until Pioneer's exit from the business became an issue.

However, what are you going to do if in a few years support or parts are not available should your set go in the crapper? File a class action suit? I have already been there with a high end kitchen appliance and what you end up doing is going out and replace the failed unit with a new one while cursing under your breath.

A question about the closing of Pioneer's plants - when was the transition to Panasonic glass supposed to have occurred?

So how many panels a day do they build? 100? 200? 500?


If my math is right , about 1115 per workday.

(Current production of 290000/260 workdays)

Or ~800 per day if they run 24/7.

If my math is right , about 1115 per workday.

(Current production of 290000/260 workdays)

Or ~800 per day if they run 24/7.


Any thoughts on the "math" production distribution of the various models and sizes? I'm guessing the 50" vs 60" is something like 4:1 and the production distribution of the Non-Elite vs Elite is also 4:1. Thoughts?

Heatwave's response is pretty much my take on the situation. The big wildcard here is the end of Q1 financial reports for publicly traded companies. Any of the big retailers AND Pio will both have to release their 10Q quarterly report, and that will affect investor confidence. If they can show that they're minimizing losses and actually have some cash on hand (from sales) then that would presumably cut in their favor (although other issues could undercut that).

Towards that end, moving product is going to be important. I expect to see some March sales. I also expect that, across the board (not just with Pio), you'll see price cuts on items in an effort to clear out inventory and bolster cash. Obviously there's a floor to how low they'll go, and that floor is LIKELY profitability, so I don't expect to see drastic discounts on the 60" sets for Pio.

I mean, Roman, you're a retailer yourself, so ask yourself this: would you take a loss on a TV to bolster cash in the short run? That's the real question and I suppose each retailer will decide that differently.

This brings up another question. Pio sells its sets to guys like you, who then sell them to guys like me, right? So, if we assume that the recent flood of 50" sets probably ALREADY came at a discount from Pio, that would mean that retailers could afford to cut more off the price. In which case, I suppose the calculus is that a retailer will make up on volume what they lose on the inventory purchased before Pio cut their prices to retailers.

Anyway, the telling point for me are the reports of no major influxes of 60" displays. That suggests to me that there is room for the price point there to move IF Pio decides to start cutting prices to its dealers. But again, the wildcard becomes Pio getting out of the display business which may encourage retailers to say "Ah, screw it. Just get 'em off the lot" and slash prices. Again, I'd figure that's up to each individual dealer and their accountants.

Its even more challenging for Pioneer because Q1 of calendar 2009 is actually Q4 for Pio's fiscal year from a financial reporting standpoint. So this last month of their 2009 fiscal year (March) is their last chance to try and unwind the building inventory they reporting on March 12 and their last chance to increase cash flow for reporting purposes for their entire fiscal year. Their annual report is likely to be released by the end of April but given their recent delayed reporting they may not release their annual report until early May.

Therefore concern about profit at this stage is almost pointless. They are going to show an enormous loss no matter what they do. Cashflow is now what matters since the actual cost of the die and plant costs were amortized out over many years. Pioneer needs to do three things quickly if they are to have any chance of surviving (which I still believe looks very remote)

they need to clear the inventory off the books before 3/31
they need to raise as much cash as they can from liquidation of inventory before 3/31. According to published reports, Pioneer has started this process by now allowing many more vendors to sell Pioneer products and they are now allowing more channels such as the internet. Expect to see more sellers of Pioneer products in the coming weeks to clear out their inventory. This effort will also bring more pricing pressure.
they must demonstrate dramatic cost reductions on a go-forward basis to their investors. They started their cost reduction with 6000 layoffs of FT employees and another 4000 PT/contractor workers but that won't be enough based on their costs to date.


Buyers are going to be few and far between as the stock market tanked in Asia last night and is expected to do the same here in the US today. The likelihood of finding enough consumers to buy $3-5K TVs will become dimmer by the day during the coming month as the economy is likely to look much worse before it looks better.

I think Solo is prophetic when he suggested the phrase of the day is soon to become "Ah, screw it. Just get 'em off the lot".

Interesting about the Q1 = Q4 thing for Pioneer. Showing liquidity will, I guess, make it seem that they can weather the coming storm a bit easier, so I guess that'll translate into moving product.

But the real questions for consumers will remain the same:

- Will the price drop to an acceptable level? ("Acceptability" being a personal matter.)

- For informed/worried consumers, will the price drop be enough to offset doubt about the future of Pioneer and the security of one's investment in Pioneer's hardware? (By that I mean "If my TV dies for any reason, can I get it fixed/replaced with the same thing?")


Here's a nightmare scenario for folks (which I grant may be far-fetched, but still possible). Oh, and FYI, all these prices are purely speculative. I'm using them solely for the sake of illustration, not to say "ZOMG!! GO BUY ONE AT THIS PLACE FOR $X!!!" ;)

Consumer goes into [Big Box Store] and says "Gimme a 151FD." Big Box Store sells Consumer the 151FD for $4000 -- a ridiculous steal, considering the previous sticker price of nearly $6000. Consumer gets the "extended warranty" plan on top of Pioneer's 2 year warranty. Consumer brings the set home and enjoys Pioneer quality on their couch made of soft Corinthian leather.

The next year, Pioneer goes out of business entirely and is sold off in bits and pieces. Unfortunately, nobody wants to buy the warranties, which are in effect liabilities. New question: what happens to the warranties? Is the entire company merged with [Japanese Megacorp] which continues to honor the original warranties until they run out? Does Pio declare bankruptcy and is sold off piece by piece with no one wanting to buy (and therefore honor) the warranties? If Pio is sold off piecemeal, can they actually sell the spare parts (which have value) separately from the warranties (which act as a "cost" to the purchaser of the spare parts)? I have no idea what the answers are to these questions, but....

Assume 1.5 years in, Consumer's HDMI inputs all simultaneously go dead one night. The PDP is still under manufacturer warranty, so Consumer now has to figure out who's gonna fix it. But who IS gonna fix it exactly? If, say, Sony picks up Pio lock, stock, and barrel, then presumably they'd assume the obligations of the MFG warranties, which means Consumer would call Sony and say "Fix my TV." If Pio is sold off piecemeal then it's anyone's guess who'd honor those warranties. Maybe it's Jimbob's Electronics Refurbishing, Inc. Who knows. If NOBODY picks up the warranties (and again, I don't even know if that's possible), then the Consumer would have to go back to Big Box Store, which would promptly tell him that they no longer carry 151FDs, but they have these lovely new 58" Panny PDPs for about the same price, or you could try one of Samsung's new shiny LCDs or whatever.


For the Consumer who shelled out Pioneer level bucks for Pioneer level quality, getting a set of equal monetary value isn't the issue as much as getting a set of equal picture quality is. Now, granted, in this economy it's anyone's bet who'll be next on the chopping block, but the above is the scenario I personally worry about. I don't want to buy a Pioneer and run the (hopefully small) risk of it running at anything less than 100% in the future when I have no way to fix or replace it with something equivalent. If we accept that there IS no equivalent to the Elite or even the standard Kuro line, where's that leave a consumer with a busted or less-than-100% functional TV for which they paid several thousand bucks? That's my main concern in buying a Pio, and the price point stuff is going to play heavily into that.

Id think pio has to honror your warrany. Its already been stated they have to keep parts for repair for atleast 7 years by law. Thats longer than any warranty with an addtional year for credit card purchase combined. For any prospective buyers of the kuro, have a high understanding that a failure in your unit, excluding cracked glass or module, will most likely result in a repair.

Id think pio has to honror your warrany. Its already been stated they have to keep parts for repair for atleast 7 years by law. Thats longer than any warranty with an addtional year for credit card purchase combined. For any prospective buyers of the kuro, have a high understanding that a failure in your unit, excluding cracked glass or module, will most likely result in a repair.

Oh, I know they have to honor the warranty -- but that presumes they'll be around to do so. The financial info Heatwave posted in another thread is worrisome to me, simply because I don't know how Pio's warranties would be handled if the company folded, say, next year. (Or was bought up by someone else, or sold off piecemeal in a bankruptcy, or whatever.)

If they're gobbled up by someone else, then chances are the warranties will be gobbled up too, and then it's just a question of "Oh man, I HATE Sony customer service" or whatever (but at least you get service).

On the other hand, if the prices drop to a point where they're running neck-and-neck with other competitors (IE: Panny), then I might go for the Pio, get an extended warranty from whatever store, and figure they'll repair or replace with a set of equivalent value (assuming the extended warranty covers me for PURCHASE value rather than CURRENT value). In that case, it wouldn't really matter what'd happen because, for me at least, I'd be happy knowing that I got superior picture quality for about the same price as I'd pay for an inferior set.


Actually, come to think of it, maybe the extended warranty option is the thing to tide over the skeptical consumer who wants a Pio (like me). I'll need to look into the terms of an EW from, say, Best Buy. If it's for purchase value, then it'd be worth it to just get the EW and figure if anything goes wrong I bring it back to the store and get whatever the new razzle-dazzle set is to replace it.

Id think pio has to honror your warrany. Its already been stated they have to keep parts for repair for atleast 7 years by law. Thats longer than any warranty with an addtional year for credit card purchase combined. For any prospective buyers of the kuro, have a high understanding that a failure in your unit, excluding cracked glass or module, will most likely result in a repair.

Forget all of the "7 year by law" it means very little - law with no teeth. Pioneer will do the right thing "if" they are able to and are still in business.
"That's a fact Jack"

Just got wind of this thread. So BB did restock 5020s, interesting.

So it's likely that not only is there stock left but possibly they are still producing plasmas, finishing up whatever they can before they fully shut down.

Warranty is still a concern for me down the road. As Rick46 said, the "7 year by law" really has no teeth. If Pioneer folds certainly all bets are off. The consumer has very little claim in any such event.

Just got wind of this thread. So BB did restock 5020s, interesting.

So it's likely that not only is there stock left but possibly they are still producing plasmas, finishing up whatever they can before they fully shut down.




One of the local Seattle B&Ms that I spoke to this weekend said that they were currently out of stock on 151s but that they would be receiving a "large" shipment of them next month.

Just got wind of this thread. So BB did restock 5020s, interesting.

So it's likely that not only is there stock left but possibly they are still producing plasmas, finishing up whatever they can before they fully shut down.

Warranty is still a concern for me down the road. As Rick46 said, the "7 year by law" really has no teeth. If Pioneer folds certainly all bets are off. The consumer has very little claim in any such event.

Actually, that'd depend on whether their warranties were taken over by a third party. If the warranties themselves were assigned to a new company or came along as part of a merger, then it wouldn't be a problem. If the warranties are simply left to rot and no one picks them up, it would be a problem. The only reasons I can think of why a company would actually want to pick up the warranties would be:

1.) They have to if they want the other assets.

2.) They don't have to, but they want to pick up the loss for some tax or accounting reason. (IE: they can offset income and pay lower taxes or whatever)

Outside of that, I have no idea. I'm not an economist or accountant by trade, though.

I think that this post is important and relevant for those sitting on the fence, sometimes it is just not about the $$$ but the timing, with everything going on with the economy and the job market I am sure that a number of members would like to have updated info to guage the last possible moment that they would have to jump in. There is no doubt in my mind that some are reluctantly purchasing way ahead of their original schedule.

Speaking for myself I was interested towards the end of summer, like others, that has to be reevaluated.

To help matters I have access to weekly inventory updates at 6th Ave electronics a 14 store chain in the NY-NJ metro area, they are a Amazon seller and a major seller of closeout items it is a specialty of theirs.

I am not touting nor recommending them, if anything if you are ready go to A forum sponsor for without them there wouldn't be a forum

current inventory as of 1 hr ago

5020 = 35 ( last week they had over 200 but they are also almost $400 less than BB sale price) computer shows no more incoming

6020 = 55 (none incoming)

111elite = 137 (none incoming)

151 = 124 (none incoming)

Unless the incoming picture changes this may be the end especially coming fro a place that loves closeouts and Adv extremely low prices and then depend on the salespeople to do what they do best and sell everything cables, stands, blue rays etc.

Hope this adds to the overall picture of inventory nationwide and assist those that for whatever reason want to wait for awhile.

This is very helpful, hope there are updates.

This is a very helpful, informative thread.

they need to clear the inventory off the books before 3/31
they need to raise as much cash as they can from liquidation of inventory before 3/31. According to published reports, Pioneer has started this process by now allowing many more vendors to sell Pioneer products and they are now allowing more channels such as the internet. Expect to see more sellers of Pioneer products in the coming weeks to clear out their inventory. This effort will also bring more pricing pressure.
they must demonstrate dramatic cost reductions on a go-forward basis to their investors. They started their cost reduction with 6000 layoffs of FT employees and another 4000 PT/contractor workers but that won't be enough based on their costs to date.



Very helpful. I believe you are right about Pioneer allowing more vendors to sell Pioneer products and more channels such as the internet. Last week I looked at an online vendor and was told they only deliver to a limited area for the Elites. That restriction is no longer there as of today that I can see.

I agree with you assessment, I imagine Pioneer will look to clear out as much of their inventory as possible by 3/31.

Sure the prices can fall if there is too much supply, but the question is, Is there too much supply?
Many people here say what is out there is what it is. According to them Pioneer is not making more displays. Also many people say the 60" availability is much lower than 50" displays.

Who knows, nobody have a clear answer at this point. Maybe people rushing now buying are suckers, but maybe they will be the ones with displays and the people waiting will miss the boat. Only time will tell.

Sure the prices can fall if there is too much supply, but the question is, Is there too much supply?
Many people here say what is out there is what it is. According to them Pioneer is not making more displays. Also many people say the 60" availability is much lower than 50" displays.

Who knows, nobody have a clear answer at this point. Maybe people rushing now buying are suckers, but maybe they will be the ones with displays and the people waiting will miss the boat. Only time will tell.

Yes, indeed. Time will tell and there is nothing wrong with trying to make an informed purchasing decision. We were told there were no 50" kuros and now BB seems to have restocked a plentiful amount of them (5020s at least).

Stock should last through March at least. If inventory is what people are saying it is, and Pioneer wants to shore up as much cash as possible by 3/31, there may be further discounts even on those. It only makes sense that if you are in a position to buy or have been thinking about it, this can be a good time (sad time, but good for a consumer) in terms of price considering the circumstances.

I'm sure many people understand that if they wait too long, they might miss the boat and take that into consideration. Other things to consider are the long term parts and warranty issue that no one here can give a buyer a guarantee on. The discussion of the financials of Pioneer may help people's decision making. Some would like to see if the prices will come down to make it easier to swallow a larger purchase and maybe use the savings towards an extended warranty as well.

Over the weekend I too saw price drops on Elite and non-Elites. Some made it seem like it's all dried up or will any second when that doesn't seem to be case. Should they happen to miss the boat, so be it. In the meantime, this thread will help them make an informed decision.

I am wondering when a company is at the end of their plasma run if x amount are made to be kept as replacements.
I would think a certain percentage by formula are kept on the side just for this purpose.
Any thoughts?

iwmtv,
I understand your point.

Like I said, There are too many questions unanswered. Believe me , I wished we all had the answers in order to make a good choice. The thing is we do not, so that's why we are on this limbo, unfortunately.

I am in the market for a 58-60" plasma. I have decided to wait to see the new Panny V-series(summer). I've been sitting here thinking what would it take for me to buy a 6020 as I am a very conservative person and the thought that I may not be able to get any parts replacement makes my skin crawl. It may be laughable but it would require pricing where the 800u Panasonic is on Amazon right now.

What about online extended warranties? I know very little about these but can they be stretched out several years and do they replace/refund based upon replacement, original, or current value(at the time of failure)? Anyone in the know?

could have picked up a 6020 at what i think was a great price the other day here in new york ( less than half the price of the 151 ).. but something made me think "what if the 151 comes down"? .... still waiting... it seems no one really wants to discount the 151... at least not here in new york...hoping things will change in that regard... hard to justify paying twice as much for the elite...

posts deleted: cut the bickering or the thread will be closed

Well Pioneers nventory of the PRO151FD just got reduced by one, it's in my living room and it makes my PRO110FD look so tiny, this thing is a BEAST, will be up in a couple of days with pics to follow.

Well Pioneers nventory of the PRO151FD just got reduced by one, it's in my living room and it makes my PRO110FD look so tiny, this thing is a BEAST, will be up in a couple of days with pics to follow.


Congratulations on the new display. I'm sure it looks great. Did the retailer you bought it from give you any sense of their inventory on the 151s? Was the retailer's inventory a factor in your decision-making?

Congratulations on the new display. I'm sure it looks great. Did the retailer you bought it from give you any sense of their inventory on the 151s? Was the retailer's inventory a factor in your decision-making?Did not ask about inventory, since I already own a PRO110FD I know how sweet these PDPs look, did not want to wait and regret not getting the last of the great KUROS, got it from John Marty at , John took care of me with my previous PRO110FD.

Did not ask about inventory, since I already own a PRO110FD I know how sweet these PDPs look, did not want to wait and regret not getting the last of the great KUROS, got it from John Marty at , John took care of me with my previous PRO110FD.

Congrats cybertec. It's kind of funny, we have never talked but your original pictures in the Kuro picture thread was sort of what got me initially hooked on the Kuro. After fence sitting for 3 years and pulling my hair out doing research of all tvs both lcd and plasma I finally pulled the trigger at the end of last November. I have been enjoying my 151 for almost 3 full months now. I used to show people your pictures and tell them "my display is even newer than his, so look how great and perfect his pictures are, now imagine them even better and bigger on mine" lol. Congrats on your 151. Wonderful tv.

I live in the SF east bay and stopped into my local BB to look at the 151 and 6020. According to their database each store in the area had 1 or 2 6020's in stock but only one store had a 151. The local warehouse (I think it was in Fresno) didn't have any 60" Kuros. These guys didn't know much about upcoming deliveries.

Then I stopped in the San Ramon Magnolia and they said they expected the 151 to be available until the summer and their warehouse is scheduled to receive a shipment of Elites in the second week of March. As for the 5020's, they're not allowed to sell any more. They're gone!! :( (Obviously, you can still order them from BB online.)

My local BB in San Diego said they don't have much in stock at this time, but they were expecting some more somewhere middle of March (151/141). My feeling was that they were lying but who knows.

Well I don't think anyone here really knows what the inventory is and whether or not there will be any additional panels once the store runs out. Since this is it, once they're gone they're gone, then waiting is a bit risky for me. I bit on a 151fd coming Friday. Got a good deal,and it was the last one at my local A/V shop. I like their service and price beat BB sale price by a lot(over 15%).

I live in the SF east bay and stopped into my local BB to look at the 151 and 6020. According to their database each store in the area had 1 or 2 6020's in stock but only one store had a 151. The local warehouse (I think it was in Fresno) didn't have any 60" Kuros. These guys didn't know much about upcoming deliveries.

Then I stopped in the San Ramon Magnolia and they said they expected the 151 to be available until the summer and their warehouse is scheduled to receive a shipment of Elites in the second week of March. As for the 5020's, they're not allowed to sell any more. They're gone!! :( (Obviously, you can still order them from BB online.)


Very interesting...given that the BB warehouse in my area (NE US) got several hundred 5020s in this weekend and another poster shared over 400 5020s went into inventory in the Chicago BB warehouse, its surprising that your west coast BB warehouse would be empty. Maybe you could check later this week and see if they get stocked as the east coast and central warehouses appear to have been. Maybe the west coast gets stock later that the East and the Central areas?

Very interesting...given that the BB warehouse in my area (NE US) got several hundred 5020s in this weekend and another poster shared over 400 5020s went into inventory in the Chicago BB warehouse, its surprising that your west coast BB warehouse would be empty. Maybe you could check later this week and see if they get stocked as the east coast and central warehouses appear to have been. Maybe the west coast gets stock later that the East and the Central areas?

Yes it was surprising. I didn't ask about the 5020 inventory at BB, I only did for the 6020's. But I don't know why a Magnolia AV store (what's left of them) wouldn't have access to the same warehouse inventory as a local BB. I'll check in with BB again this weekend.

Getting closer to scooping up a 151...

not sure if this was posted here before;

http://www.hereshow.ca/news_detail.asp?nid=1741

"We will have 9th generation product up until summer," says Schepers, "and our goal is to get our hands on as many more 9th generation panels as we can to be able to supply as long as possible.

I just purchased a PRO-111 FD from my local BB Magnolia. While they didn't have the display in store at the time of purchase they are trading with another local store. While I had them check availability before I made the purchase I asked him to check everything on the 5020 and the PRO-111. Long story short they had 0 at every store but the one, they had 0 at the warehouse, and 0 incoming. As for the 5020 they had sold 4 today, had a few more on hand, and over 200 at the warehouse. My BB is the highest performing in this region and has the highest performing Magnolia department. They were nice enough to give me a better then advertised sale price AND they're going to personally go get it and bring it to the store for pick-up before Friday of this week. Needless to say I stole it and I'm so very proud to finally be the owner of a 9G Elite. :D:cool::D

Get them now while you can, any 9G KURO is just to good to hold out for. :eek:

I live in the SF east bay and stopped into my local BB to look at the 151 and 6020. According to their database each store in the area had 1 or 2 6020's in stock but only one store had a 151. The local warehouse (I think it was in Fresno) didn't have any 60" Kuros. These guys didn't know much about upcoming deliveries.

Then I stopped in the San Ramon Magnolia and they said they expected the 151 to be available until the summer and their warehouse is scheduled to receive a shipment of Elites in the second week of March. As for the 5020's, they're not allowed to sell any more. They're gone!! :( (Obviously, you can still order them from BB online.)
I was in Best Buy today and I had the saleman check the computer for the inventory for 151s in the Bay Area district. Most stores showed 0 inventory. Some showed 1 but it was in the column for open box. I think I saw only 1 or 2 stores that showed 1 unopened unit. There were 0s in all the columns for items pending or on order. There was a column for weekly sales at the stores and most were 0 with the highest being 0.63. The bay area looks dead for 151s according to what I saw on the computer screen. Buying an open box set with the Pioneer and plasma situation the way it is now is not an option.

I also looked at a similar sized Panasonic TV and a front projection set up. They both paled in comparison to my 111. I have read rave reviews about FP so maybe BB didn't have it set up right.

Its already been stated they have to keep parts for repair for atleast 7 years by law.

Wrong, on the federal level in the U.S there are no such laws that parts must be made available for any extended time period, let alone for 7 years.
And there only a very few states that even have a state law regarding that replacement parts must be made available past the warranty time limit.
And even for those states that do have one, such as California, which is one of the only two states where the law is for 7 years, those laws are not working out very good.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15789544&postcount=1374

Here's the thing, though. Even if there's a law on the books, you still have to be willing to sue the buggers to enforce it. To qualify for a class action there'd have to be more than just you (you need a class of consumers of which you are a good representative). Anyway, I wouldn't count on that kind of stuff. It's the same thing as enforcing a warranty. Pretty much any situation like that requires you to "go to the mattresses" and, honestly, I rather doubt anyone here is going to want to swallow the cost of a lawsuit to make a company replace their PDP.

Here's the thing, though. Even if there's a law on the books, you still have to be willing to sue the buggers to enforce it. To qualify for a class action there'd have to be more than just you (you need a class of consumers of which you are a good representative). Anyway, I wouldn't count on that kind of stuff. It's the same thing as enforcing a warranty. Pretty much any situation like that requires you to "go to the mattresses" and, honestly, I rather doubt anyone here is going to want to swallow the cost of a lawsuit to make a company replace their PDP.

I understand your point for sure. But lets be honest what are the odds of things going wrong. These units are solid and I have been happy with the performance for years. Yes things can go wrong but they do say they have enough parts to cover consumers for a LONG while.

Well Pioneers nventory of the PRO151FD just got reduced by one, it's in my living room and it makes my PRO110FD look so tiny, this thing is a BEAST, will be up in a couple of days with pics to follow.

Good Job cybertec and Congrats!
I also helped reducing the inventory by buying a PRO 111FD this weekend! I already had the 110FD, and was thinking to upgrade in a few years to the 10/11/12G? (wishful thinking, right). Now when I saw all the news about Pioneer closing shop, I wanted the 9G so bad that I started to look for the best deals. I live in Chicago and ended up at the same (not BB) electronics store from the burbs, that sold me the 110FD back in 2007.
I asked the guy about the warranty - he said if there will be no Pios/Pios parts available, they will replace it w/ a new TV from their highest end comparable brand at that time. I really wonder who would that be - hopefully I won't have to find out, but if so, a 3D TV would do :D
Wish I knew to ask him about the inventory, but had not read this thread(s) in this regards as of then, and was just happy I got it.
Yeah, I know I'm stupid and should have got rid of the old one first, but just couldn't miss the last model ever made by Pioneer. :D
Thanks guys!

Cant blame you for jumping on the deal while they are still around. Yes craiglist is a good start but please dont forget about the AVS classifieds as they work very well.

Cant blame you for jumping on the deal while they are still around. Yes craiglist is a good start but please dont forget about the AVS classifieds as they work very well.

AVS classified's have not worked for me very well so far,, I have had my brand new 6020 Kuro listed (at a great price) for over a week now and no one has bought it yet :(

Cheers
Davyo

AVS classified's have not worked for me very well so far,, I have had my brand new 6020 Kuro listed (at a great price) for over a week now and no one has bought it yet :(

Cheers
Davyo

Do a pricegrabber search on the 6020 and you will see where the problem lies.

- Rich

Cant blame you for jumping on the deal while they are still around. Yes craiglist is a good start but please dont forget about the AVS classifieds as they work very well.

It was a very good deal, trust me :)
I've also looked at the AVS Classifieds and noticed the two Pio's sitting there for days - that makes me think the inventories are still high and other deals out there are very good, for people not to worry they'll be left without any yet. The PRO 110FD is very good and the closest one (in quality and same size) to the PRO 111FD. I'll post it there, just want to take some pics these days. Thanks for the tip, ROMAN!

Do a pricegrabber search on the 6020 and you will see where the problem lies.

- Rich

I tend to agree - it won't hurt tweaking the price a tad, see what happens.

Do a pricegrabber search on the 6020 and you will see where the problem lies.

- Rich

I tend to agree - it won't hurt tweaking the price a tad, see what happens.

I looked at Pricegrabber and yes, the prices are good but mine is still cheaper if you take into consideration the cost of the included 3 year extended warrenty that mine comes with.

Perhaps ebay or Craigs or tweeking the price a tad here on the AVS classifieds,, hummmm, what to do.

Ok, lets see what happen's, I just tweeked/lowered the price.

Cheers
Davyo

Yes things can go wrong but they do say they have enough parts to cover consumers for a LONG while.

Is that from an official source? Can you tell me where you go that information?

I understand your point for sure. But lets be honest what are the odds of things going wrong. These units are solid and I have been happy with the performance for years. Yes things can go wrong but they do say they have enough parts to cover consumers for a LONG while.

Oh, I'm not claiming the sets fail. I'm just pointing out the practicalities that come along with the legalities. Lots of people never think about what a contract (which is all a warranty is) means in any practical sense. Like, you can have a document that says "I promise to give you an entirely new TV and I really really mean it" but unless you're willing to try to get a court to MAKE that guy follow the contract, what's to stop him from breaching?

In my line of work the adage is that when it comes to contract law, pretty much if they wanna screw ya, they're gonna screw ya. Then it comes down to who has the will to enforce and does the contract effectively protect them or empower them.

Is that from an official source? Can you tell me where you go that information?

Here's one of several:

http://www.hereshow.ca/news_detail.asp?nid=1741




Earlier today, Pioneer globally announced that it would be exiting the plasma business by March 2010, moving its focus to other areas of the business, including 12-volt, audio, and pro DJ equipment. Marketnews talked with Bruce Schepers, Executive Vice President of Sales & Marketing at Pioneer Canada, on the situation in Canada.

Despite the fact that worldwide reports suggest Pioneer will be centering its business predominantly on the 12-volt market, Schepers was adamant that the company will remain firmly committed to all of its home audio lines as well, including both Elite and Pioneer receivers and Blu-ray players.

"There will be no principal changes in the scope or style of the A/V business," he insists. "We're not reducing any of the other A/V categories we're in."

While Pioneer is looking for a joint venture partnership to help expand its optical business, an official partner has not yet been confirmed. Schepers concedes that Sharp is a "likely candidate," but says that the situation is still fluid.

He adds that 12-volt will indeed remain an important part of the business, with engineering resources moving from the display side to the mobile side.

"They will be redeployed where Tokyo sees that they're needed."

As for Canada, which has a proven track record as a profitable subsidiary of the Tokyo-based company, 9th generation panels will remain in next fiscal year's budget.

"We will have 9th generation product up until summer," says Schepers, "and our goal is to get our hands on as many more 9th generation panels as we can to be able to supply as long as possible. Plans for DVD and Blu-ray products will go ahead as scheduled." There will, however, no longer be 10th generation displays (the planned designs based on Panasonic panels) coming to market.

While Pioneer confirmed that 10,000 jobs would be cut worldwide (6,000 permanent and 4,000 temporary employees), Schepers says that Pioneer Canada has not yet been given any requirement in this respect.

"But," he adds, "to say there won't be wouldn't make sense. We'll obviously scale down the organization if the requirement is given. But at this time, we haven't heard anything."

One thing Schepers stressed throughout our interview was that Pioneer will continue to be a strong force in the Canadian market. "We'll have a complete sales force here, continue to support and service product, and will maintain a full Canadian presence. It's business as usual for us."

He ended the interview on a high note. "You'll be able to reach me at this number for some time to come."


You either want to buy the TV or you don't. If you don't have confidence in Pioneer then move on. It's that simple.

I'm really not sure what the point to this thread is past that.

Here's one of several:

http://www.hereshow.ca/news_detail.asp?nid=1741

You either want to buy the TV or you don't. If you don't have confidence in Pioneer then move on. It's that simple.

I'm really not sure what the point to this thread is past that.

The point of the thread is that the issues this topic covers are very fluid in the current economic environment and what better use of a forum could there be than for those interested in Pioneers products in general and their plasma displays to share appropriate information on that fluid situation.

For example, Pioneer has apparently changed the rules of their exclusive retailing network: "According to a report in the trade publication Consumer Electronics Daily, Pioneer recently dropped minimum advertised price (MAP) requirements on its premium Elite-brand products, and began allowing Internet sales, something it had previously prohibited. It also has widened distribution through warehouse clubs."

I would think given these types of changes to the way Pioneer conducts business are helpful for members to share their thoughts and the latest information they find on warranties, parts and inventory before deciding to pull the trigger on a multi-thousand $ purchase.

Given the circumstances, the changing dynamics of the marketplace can alter people's confidence and sharing information can serve to help folks make a better decision.

To some degree, I think the point of this thread is to help folks make that decision. Inventory will affect price points, and gauging inventory gives consumers a means of predicting price drops (albeit not a sure-fire means).

I suspect that ANYONE (myself included) who is on the fence and concerned re: Pioneer's future still has a "Well yeah, but I'd buy at that price" number in mind. Figuring out when and if the inventory will be pushed out at a price that meets or gets close to your own internal number is useful.

It's also helpful to gauge inventory comparatively across different regions. IE: the Northeast seems to be getting a lot of inventory, whereas CA (apparently) isn't getting as much. At the same time, sellers are lifting their selling-radius restrictions (or Pio is) and competing across multiple markets. Figuring out where and when that's happening can help a consumer decide to pull the trigger now or maybe wait a little longer and see what happens.

Ok, that was almost in stereo there.... Stay out of my head, heatwave! ;)

Is that from an official source? Can you tell me where you go that information?

From Pioneer.

It was a very good deal, trust me :)
I've also looked at the AVS Classifieds and noticed the two Pio's sitting there for days - that makes me think the inventories are still high and other deals out there are very good, for people not to worry they'll be left without any yet. The PRO 110FD is very good and the closest one (in quality and same size) to the PRO 111FD. I'll post it there, just want to take some pics these days. Thanks for the tip, ROMAN!

Thats because its a dealer special for AVS members so its not 2 units only :)

For example, Pioneer has apparently changed the rules of their exclusive retailing network: "According to a report in the trade publication Consumer Electronics Daily, Pioneer recently dropped minimum advertised price (MAP) requirements on its premium Elite-brand products, and began allowing Internet sales, something it had previously prohibited. It also has widened distribution through warehouse clubs."



Could you provide a link to this? Thanks.

Could you provide a link to this? Thanks.

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/electronics/2009/02/pioneer-confirms-tv-business-exit.html

Could you provide a link to this? Thanks.

That may be the case but you even have to be more careful now and check out a company at resellerratings for example.

That may be the case but you even have to be more careful now and check out a company at resellerratings for example.

I think Roman's advice is very important going forward. Given the widening Pioneer distribution channels, it will be very difficult to separate the "good" retailers in Pioneer's distribution chain from the "bad". Most will be good, however there will certainly be a few that see a "quick buck" and will turn out to be "bad".

While there are certainly going to be alot more channels to purchase a Pioneer Plasma from in the coming months as the inventory is "burned up", a good starting point for your shopping are the AVS sponsors since its unlikely they could afford to serve the "Picky" (ie knowledgable:)) members of this forum poorly and still stay in business.

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/electronics/2009/02/pioneer-confirms-tv-business-exit.html

Thanks,

Yes I agreed with Roman, make sure the retailer is good and is an Authorized Pioneer dealer. So the warranty stays good.

That may be the case but you even have to be more careful now and check out a company at resellerratings for example.

Good point Roman.
I just got off the phone with three authorized online Pioneer dealers. They confirmed that there is no longer an area restriction on sales of Elite Plasmas. These are the same dealers who said they couldn't sell me a television last week because I was outside their geographic area.

Can the original poster summarize all this thoughts on firts page?

What shortage date can we expect for 60" units?

Will it be worldwide or country dependant?

Good point Roman.
I just got off the phone with three authorized online Pioneer dealers. They confirmed that there is no longer an area restriction on sales of Elite Plasmas. These are the same dealers who said they couldn't sell me a television last week because I was outside their geographic area.

Is there even a definition for an "authorized on-line Pioneer dealer" any longer. Or is anyone selling a Pioneer "authorized" and therefore there are no limitations on warranties based on who you buy from? Is Pioneer's plasma warranties now good from anyone you buy from and simply in effect from the manufacture date of you panel?

Does anyone know?

That may be the case but you even have to be more careful now and check out a company at resellerratings for example.

Is there even a definition for an "authorized on-line Pioneer dealer" any longer. Or is anyone selling a Pioneer "authorized" and therefore there are no limitations on warranties based on who you buy from? Is Pioneer's plasma warranties now good from anyone you buy from and simply in effect from the manufacture date of you panel?

Does anyone know?

Yes, my last statement was a little confusing :)

When I said 'authorized pioneer dealers' I meant dealers who have been authorized to sell Pioneer products (including Elites) before Pioneer decided to exit the plasma business. Here's the link: http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/FindStore/Buy+Pioneer+Products+on+the+Internet

Almost everyone on that list looks pretty reliable and has good resellerratings. I did call the most recognizable ones.

Being in the business not to long ago, Pioneers are supposed to be listed at MAP pricing and I see just about every dealer on the net viloting that policy. Guess that is subject to opinion.

That may be the case but you even have to be more careful now and check out a company at resellerratings for example.

Correct there is lots of referb B stock product that gets moved around and re-sold so make sure you are buying from a known or authorized vendor. Buying Pioneer from someone you know nothing about to save a few bucks might cost you in the long run.

I think Roman's advice is very important going forward. Given the widening Pioneer distribution channels, it will be very difficult to separate the "good" retailers in Pioneer's distribution chain from the "bad". Most will be good, however there will certainly be a few that see a "quick buck" and will turn out to be "bad".


Buy dot com is on the list and there service looks pretty bad..... http://www.resellerratings.com/store/Buy

Can the original poster summarize all this thoughts on firts page?

What shortage date can we expect for 60" units?

Will it be worldwide or country dependant?

I'm not sure anyone has more information than has been shared throughout this thread (and willing to publicly share it). I'm not sure any summary would be accurate for everyone or for very long. Inventories will be constantly changing and the point of this thread is to better understand those changes, impact on panel availability, warranty coverage and parts. All very uncertain variables at this time.

Here's what we know to be factual:

Pioneer will close their last Plasma factory in Japan by the end of March.
Pioneer will close the production facility assembling plasma panels in the US at the end of April and in the UK at the end of Feb.
Pioneer has ended their geographic sales restrictions on their current dealers.
Pioneer has expanded their retail distribution channel to include warehouse clubs and other internet retailers
Current inventory of 5020s and 111's is variable. Lot's of 5020s in the east and central part of the US and modest but available inventory of 111s.
Less clarity around the availability of 60" displays.
In the east, there is still significant inventory of 6020s.
In the east, there is modest inventory of 151s but availability doesn't appear to be an issue yet.
In the east, 141s are available but inventory is light.
Multiple reports of shipments to retailers are scheduled for early March for all types and sizes of units.
Pioneer's fiscal year closes on March 31 and their recent financial reports suggest cash flow may be a significant concern in the coming months.

Others are welcome to correct, clarify or add to the "facts" as I've posted them above.

Yes, my last statement was a little confusing :)

When I said 'authorized pioneer dealers' I meant dealers who have been authorized to sell Pioneer products (including Elites) before Pioneer decided to exit the plasma business. Here's the link: http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/FindStore/Buy+Pioneer+Products+on+the+Internet

Almost everyone on that list looks pretty reliable and has good resellerratings. I did call the most recognizable ones.


I believe that list of "authorized on-line dealers" is out of date and no longer accurate. Pioneer's recent announcement to expand their on-line retailers I believe overrides that list. Its clearly not been updated in a long time since it still lists CC as an "authorized dealer"...good luck getting a Pioneer panel from CC:)

When I said 'authorized pioneer dealers' I meant dealers who have been authorized to sell Pioneer products (including Elites) before Pioneer decided to exit the plasma business. Here's the link: http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/FindStore/Buy+Pioneer+Products+on+the+Internet


I am wondering how accurate/upto-date is this list. As per the consumer reports blog report - Pioneer added more resellers, so it does mean that Pioneer is expected to honor warranty for products brought from these "new" resellers as well - right?

Of course - I do agree with Roman regarding buying from known/reputed resellers (which may be true in any case irrespective of current Pioneer issues) - but kind of confused on Pioneers responsibility here. If they do officially allow more resellers and if they do stay in business, I would expect them to honor the one year warranty irrespective of who we buy it from.

BTW - the online list does not have costco.com which is selling these items - they are quite well-known warehouse. I wonder if they are not really authorized reseller or if the list is just not upto-date.

Being in the business not to long ago, Pioneers are supposed to be listed at MAP pricing and I see just about every dealer on the net viloting that policy. Guess that is subject to opinion.

Pioneer has eliminated the MAP restrictions in their recent announcement so there are no violations since the policy no longer exists.

well heatwave beat me - my above post is pretty much same as what he said in the previous post.

I believe that list of "authorized on-line dealers" is out of date and no longer accurate. Pioneer's recent announcement to expand their on-line retailers I believe overrides that list. Its clearly not been updated in a long time since it still lists CC as an "authorized dealer"...good luck getting a Pioneer panel from CC:)

True, but your response is a little orthogonal to my (possibly not-well-stated) point isn't it?

Pioneer's announcement expands the list, so most dealers on the current list (with the possible exception of CC) remain authorized dealers. They're also relatively well-known names from whom I'd feel comfortable buying a high ticket item like a plasma. YMMV of course.

Correct there is lots of referb B stock product that gets moved around and re-sold so make sure you are buying from a known or authorized vendor. Buying Pioneer from someone you know nothing about to save a few bucks might cost you in the long run.
That's exactly what my local reputable A/V dealer told me. Buying from an unauthorized vendor may get you a B-stock item which was deemed not good enough (inferior) for whatever reason by the manufacturer for an authorized vendor to sell. The warranty may not be the same either.

I wonder how many people know about this.

^^^ That is also a sales pitch. Plenty of trusted online venders, like our forum sponsors. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/advertisers.php

That's exactly what my local reputable A/V dealer told me. Buying from an unauthorized vendor may get you a B-stock item which was deemed not good enough (inferior) for whatever reason by the manufacturer for an authorized vendor to sell. The warranty may not be the same either.

I wonder how many people know about this.

No offense at all intended, but this sounds like a crock to justify higher margins. While it wouldn't surprise me to see some NYC outfit shifting refurbished goods, I seriously doubt that Pio sells any "B-stock" panels.

No offense at all intended, but this sounds like a crock to justify higher margins. While it wouldn't surprise me to see some NYC outfit shifting refurbished goods, I seriously doubt that Pio sells any "B-stock" panels.

Both are out there.

Both are out there.

Gulp...?!?!?!...How does one tell if its a 'b' stock?

For what its worth...I looked up the pricing of the 6020 on Amazon today and noticed that it has gone up significantly from last week (the 5020 is still a steal at its current low price).
I only checked 'Amazon' as the seller and not a 3rd party on Amazon.com

Both are out there.

Really? Again, no offense intended, but, as a lawyer (save the boos) I'm really interested in knowing how Pio could sell panels that it deems less than optimal without disclosing that fact to the end purchaser.

That's exactly what my local reputable A/V dealer told me. Buying from an unauthorized vendor may get you a B-stock item which was deemed not good enough (inferior) for whatever reason by the manufacturer for an authorized vendor to sell. The warranty may not be the same either.

I wonder how many people know about this.

Can a "B-Stock" item be a "New-in-the-box" panel? How does a brand new product become "B-Stock" without ever having been sold or used? Has anyone every seen a label or designation of a "B-stock" product that came out of an previously unopened Pioneer shipping box?

Gulp...?!?!?!...How does one tell if its a 'b' stock?

Ask your dealer. That was my point :)

Really? Again, no offense intended, but, as a lawyer (save the boos) I'm really interested in knowing how Pio could sell panels that it deems less than optimal without disclosing that fact to the end purchaser.

Thats not what I said, I said they have B-Stock out there and they tell you. But some DEALERS not PIoneer dont.

I believe that list of "authorized on-line dealers" is out of date and no longer accurate. Pioneer's recent announcement to expand their on-line retailers I believe overrides that list. Its clearly not been updated in a long time since it still lists CC as an "authorized dealer"...good luck getting a Pioneer panel from CC:)
The list might be out of date but one of their customer service reps pointed me to it when I asked about newegg.com earlier this week. Also was sent the following (which I know has been previously discussed on this board):
Pioneer does NOT offer a manufacturer's limited warranty for products purchased from anyone who is not an authorized dealer and it does NOT offer rebates or other special opportunities for products purchased from anyone who is not an authorized dealer.

The list might be out of date but one of their customer service reps pointed me to it when I asked about newegg.com earlier this week. Also was sent the following (which I know has been previously discussed on this board):

Interesting....I wonder if the CSRs have not been given an update on Pioneer's retailing plans given their recent turmoil?

I've read reports that they have recently added Costco (as well as other warehouse clubs) as a retailer of Pioneer Plasma products. Since Costco's not included on the Pioneer website as an authorized dealer...does that mean if you buy a Pio Plasma from one of these warehouse clubs that there is no Pioneer warranty on those products?

I'm not sure anyone has more information than has been shared throughout this thread (and willing to publicly share it)..

Thanks for clarifying....
It looks like the shortage will happen earlier than I've expected...

I thought I would have 4/6 months to make up my mind.... before buying an European KRP-600A (a "60 model with external media unit, dunno what's the American counterpart).... but it may be too late...

Tomorrow I'll make a phone call to Pioneer Italy and ask when they think their supplies will begin to end....

Interesting....I wonder if the CSRs have not been given an update on Pioneer's retailing plans given their recent turmoil?

I've read reports that they have recently added Costco (as well as other warehouse clubs) as a retailer of Pioneer Plasma products. Since Costco's not included on the Pioneer website as an authorized dealer...does that mean if you buy a Pio Plasma from one of these warehouse clubs that there is no Pioneer warranty on those products?
CSRs could certainly be out-of-the-loop. Just letting everyone know of their current stance.

Costco has it's own warranty:
For COMPUTERS, TELEVISIONS and PROJECTORS, Costco extends the MANUFACTURER'S WARRANTY to two years from date of purchase. Please call Costco Concierge™ Technical Support @ 1-866-861-0450 for warranty assistance.

CSRs could certainly be out-of-the-loop. Just letting everyone know of their current stance.

Costco has it's own warranty:

The Costco warranty only comes into effect after the OEM (Pioneer's warranty would end). Since the Pioneer website doesn't list Costco and supposedly the only way a Pioneer warranty is in effect is if you buy from an authorized dealer, does that mean that Pioneer does not warranty Plasma displays sold through Costco (before the Costco warranty comes into effect)?

Since the Pioneer website doesn't list Costco and supposedly the only way a Pioneer warranty is in effect is if you buy from an authorized dealer, does that mean that Pioneer does not warranty Plasma displays sold through Costco (before the Costco warranty comes into effect)?
Not sure but I've wondered the same thing about some of the forum's sponsors who sell Kuros but aren't listed on the official Pioneer list.

There's on old thread discussing whether Pio has actually ever denied a warranty claim and no one had an example so maybe it's not an issue?

Not sure but I've wondered the same thing about some of the forum's sponsors who sell Kuros but aren't listed on the official Pioneer list.

There's on old thread discussing whether Pio has actually ever denied a warranty claim and no one had an example so maybe it's not an issue?

The forum sponsors are all Pioneer authorized dealers as far as I know?? You are looking at the online dealers only perhaps. If you use the search on the right side on Pioneer's where to buy page, using specific model and zip code, you will find local dealers and it's there that a lot of forum sponsors will show up.

For what its worth...I looked up the pricing of the 6020 on Amazon today and noticed that it has gone up significantly from last week (the 5020 is still a steal at its current low price).
I only checked 'Amazon' as the seller and not a 3rd party on Amazon.com


Folks were asked repeatedly to drop pricing issues and where to buy so this thread must now be closed

thanks all