i got very likely one of the first serial production units.

after my test with a good working ingenierung sample i was
anxious to see how this serial pr. perform.

to make it short the new unit is Not as good as the ingenierung sample.

here are the measurments

cr. 4200:1 di off max lamp power iris full open (drop lumen only 9%) at d65
11030:1 cr. di on.

lumen only 1540 centerlumen at d 65 at 35 hours at the lamp.

you can compare this numbers with the numbers form my old thead.

convergence at the biggest picture this t1 lens can do.
center 0,4 pixel corners 0,75 pixels

convergence at a smaller picture.
center 0,6 pixels corneres 1 pixel.

seams this unit is in every way not as good as the sample i had before.

may this unit is a brocken one have to check tomorror with sim2.

Sounds like something is wrong with that projector.

certainly seems like something is off with it

I certainly hope there is something wrong.

Yes, I had heard that the production units may not perform as well due to a mod needed for heat reasons.

Art

That may be, but then the 35,000:1 contrast spec on the brochure won't even be close to reality. Better re-think or re-engineer that mod.

That may be, but then the 35,000:1 contrast spec on the brochure won't even be close to reality. Better re-think or re-engineer that mod.

Might be cheaper to change the brochure.;)

Art

Might be cheaper to change the brochure.

Unless people re-think buying a Lumis!

I'd heard the same rumors about modifications to production models and with Wolfgangs comment, that is now three that I'm aware of that indicate a reduction in numbers in the production units. It will be interesting to see how the units coming in at end-of-month perform.

Jim

i got very likely one of the first serial production units.

after my test with a good working ingenierung sample i was
anxious to see how this serial pr. perform.

to make it short the new unit is Not as good as the ingenierung sample.

here are the measurments

cr. 4200:1 di off max lamp power iris full open (drop lumen only 9%) at d65
11030:1 cr. di on.

lumen only 1540 centerlumen at d 65 at 35 hours at the lamp.

you can compare this numbers with the numbers form my old thead.

convergence at the biggest picture this t1 lens can do.
center 0,4 pixel corners 0,75 pixels

convergence at a smaller picture.
center 0,6 pixels corneres 1 pixel.

seams this unit is in every way not as good as the sample i had before.

may this unit is a brocken one have to check tomorror with sim2.

Thanks once again Wolfgang for taking the time and posting on this.

Art

I certainly hope there is something wrong.


me too!

W.Mayer
What did the actual picture tell your eyes?

T1 too be avoided? Maybee T2 or T3 performs significantly better than T1.

Yes thanks Wolfgang, you tell it like it is

well that's disappointing

W.Mayer
What did the actual picture tell your eyes?

T1 too be avoided? Maybee T2 or T3 performs significantly better than T1.

Hmm... I think this idea is worth pursuing...:D. I'm a T3 by the way...

We need more data points but the early results are not especially encouraging. Would there really be such discrepancy between lenses? Wolfgang, is the fan any louder than the prototype you had earlier?

I'll take one of the pre-production units, please. And point a fan at it.

We need more data points but the early results are not especially encouraging. Would there really be such discrepancy between lenses? Wolfgang, is the fan any louder than the prototype you had earlier?

its hard to tell from memory but i guess the fan noise is a bit low
than the sample i had before.

W.Mayer
What did the actual picture tell your eyes?

T1 too be avoided? Maybee T2 or T3 performs significantly better than T1.

well the convergence have not to do with the t1 t2 or t3 lens but may
the cr. drop.

the unit alan have have 22000:1 cr. my had 17000:1 and now
only 11000:1 this development is not nice.

same for lumen.
alans unit have around 2400 center lumen at d 65 my demo unit
1960 lumen and now 1500 lumen.

the pr. still have a good picture but the shrinking numers
are not good.

I'll take one of the pre-production units, please. And point a fan at it.


tom
i will ask alan to sale his unit to me:)

WM,
Have you spoken to Sim about these changed numbers? what do they have to say?
I might just ask my integrator to measure my unit when it arrives before he brings it to Houston to install.
I sure was hoping that I found the projector I was looking for.
Ash

its hard to tell from memory but i guess the fan noise is a bit low
than the sample i had before.

When I first saw the Lumis, the Sim rep told me that all prototype models would have their fans on full all of the time and that this couldn't be changed on those units. I was told to expect the production unit to be much quieter, save for it being set to run on full lamp power and therefor require more cooling.

Would be a heck of a shame if the production units all had reduced performance of the type you are seeing, Wolfgang.

Sean

Well, here's what we know and what we don't know:

The Pre-production unit out performs the handful (three in the U.S. I know of plus Wolfgang's unit). We do know there is a delay in further distribution. We don't know the reason for the delay. There is speculation about the reason for the delay; but, in the absence of an attributed official comment from Sim, it must remain "speculation".

We must all use caution when viewing projectors (preproduction or otherwise) at trade shows. All manufacturers set up those units tweeked to a nanometer of their lives using tools, knowledge and human resources not generally available in the field (the guy who does this unfortunately doesn't come in the box with the projector).

I for one don't care about the fan noise (as long as the fan keeps the projector from a flame out) since I don't believe any projector should be naked in a quiet room. Besides, no matter how quiet the fan, if it exceeds 22 NC (or NR), it's too noisy to be exposed to the room.

In any case, we have to wait, let the factory fix their problem and see what the results are.

The trials and tribulations of trying to be first ....

If this is a cooling fan issue, I would think that most people would rather have a higher performing unit that is loud and just manage the noise in some way.

High performing units can be built. Why not build them for everyone?

Convergence is disappointing also.

[QUOTE=W.Mayer;15835206]i got very likely one of the first serial production units.

after my test with a good working ingenierung sample i was
anxious to see how this serial pr. perform.

to make it short the new unit is Not as good as the ingenierung sample.

here are the measurments



convergence at the biggest picture this t1 lens can do.
center 0,4 pixel corners 0,75 pixels

convergence at a smaller picture.
center 0,6 pixels corneres 1 pixel.


What exatcly does 0,4 and 0,75 stand for is that 0.4 and 0.75?

There goes the powerbuy :o

What exatcly does 0,4 and 0,75 stand for is that 0.4 and 0.75?


Welcome to European number formatting where commas are decimal points and vice versa.

We must all use caution when viewing projectors (preproduction or otherwise) at trade shows. All manufacturers set up those units tweaked to a nanometer of their lives using tools, knowledge and human resources not generally available in the field (the guy who does this unfortunately doesn't come in the box with the projector).

Dennis,

The projectors that members reviewed here were not viewed at any trade show. They were prototypes submitted and shipped to members that were assuredly extremely likely to document and report on their performance. The reported performance window was within a fairly narrow range. Now, the production units are coming in significantly below these marketing prototype units' capabilities as well as Sim2's own marketing materials. I don't think anyone is accusing bait and switch, especially as I think they are a terrific company and don't believe they would do that so let's not chalk this up to a tuned show "ringer". Hopefully it's a glitch that they're working on and we can get this stink out ;).

Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine

We must all use caution when viewing projectors (preproduction or otherwise) at trade shows. All manufacturers set up those units tweaked to a nanometer of their lives using tools, knowledge and human resources not generally available in the field (the guy who does this unfortunately doesn't come in the box with the projector).

Dennis,

The projectors that members reviewed here were not viewed at any trade show. They were prototypes submitted and shipped to members that were assuredly extremely likely to document and report on their performance. The reported performance window was within a fairly narrow range. Now, the production units are coming in significantly below these marketing prototype units' capabilities as well as Sim2's own marketing materials. I don't think anyone is accusing bait and switch, especially as I think they are a terrific company and don't believe they would do that so let's not chalk this up to a tuned show "ringer". Hopefully it's a glitch that they're working on and we can get this stink out

I assume it's a glitch, since Free's unit appears to be closer to the demo units in performance.

WM,
Have you spoken to Sim about these changed numbers? what do they have to say?
I might just ask my integrator to measure my unit when it arrives before he brings it to Houston to install.
I sure was hoping that I found the projector I was looking for.
Ash

of course i did it.
i send a long mail with pictures and a long text but when i comes home
tonight i see no answer from them.

so i call them and request a answer from them till tomorror.

I assume it's a glitch, since Free's unit appears to be closer to the demo units in performance.

Craig

That's good news. What were those ?

I don't think anyone is accusing bait and switch,
Excuse me. I didn't even suggest "bait and switch" (you used the term, not me) on any manufacturer's part in any of this and take great exception to your suggesting I implied such...so don't go there.

Let's break my comment into two parts:
1. Projectors shown by manufacturers are calibrated extremely well ... much better than most can have done on their own or by their dealer. That would also be true of units shipped to reviewers. That's not to be negative toward any manufacturer. That's simply stating (a) the manufacturer is doing exactly what we'd do if any of us were a manufacturer; and, (b) don't expect the same performance at home without paying for a skilled calibrator.

2. With respect to the Lumis, recently reported measurements do not live up to earlier preproduction reports and Sim is working the issue, therefore, before there's a lot of arm waving, let's let Sim tackle the problem in peace.

Dennis

Roger that, I think we're on the same page. I didn't imply that you said that, if you reread it, so I'll stick to what I originally stated which is inclusive of you: "I don't think anyone is accusing bait and switch" :)

With respect to the Lumis, recently reported measurements do not live up to earlier preproduction reports and Sim is working the issue, therefore, before there's a lot of arm waving, let's let Sim tackle the problem in peace.

This runs totally counter to the armchair anal retentive nature of our forum.:D

Art

...but your arm chairs are sooo nice. :)

Where is Alan? I think he would have some good info on pre-production and production differences.

I can confirm that my unit has the same issues, which is why I returned it to Sim2 a week ago. I measured 1300 lumens max out of my unit, and the convergence was off more than it should have been. I did not measure On/Off or Ansi, but my unit also had problems with the remote control, or more specifically communication between the head unit and the Host.

Even with all the problems, the Lumis throws an amazing picture, and bests other projectors that are held up as examples of state of the art. However, Sim2 has to understand that one of the main reasons that we are buying this unit, is for our large screens, and they can't just dial back the light output, without disclosing that to its customers. It is kind of like buying a Ferrari, and finding out that it had an overheating problem, so the manufacturer just decided to limit the top speed to 35mph.

I am hopeful that Sim2 will read this thread, and do the right thing by its customers, and deliver the product they promised in the specifications, and evidenced by the pre-production units. I have had a really good experience with their projectors over the years, and hope they continue to provide the same service and performance that we all expect from them.

if you reread it

I can't read ... I only look at the pictures...or is it the other way. I forget which.

This runs totally counter to the armchair anal retentive nature of our forum.:D

Art
They should have the name changed from the 20k to the Butt Plug Forum

Sounds like it is time for me to buy a light meter and take some measurements. My unit was one of the first to show up in the US and I know they did some a firmware upgrade before they shipped it. Hopefully that means it can be undone with another firmware upgrade.

i get some feedback from sim2 about the numbers and problems i found with
the unit.

seams that t1 lens is the reason why the lumen and cr. are smaller
that the number i have measured with the sample i had.

the sample with the good numbers have t2 lens inside the unit i got was t1.

early next week i will know more as they will test this
but i am almost sure thats the reason.

That doesn't make sense. My unit was a T2, and had the exact same Lumen output as yours.

How could the lens cause bad on/off CR?

Alan had a T3 I believe.

Alan had a T3 I believe.

And big numbers, too.

The lens can definitely change the sequential CR because of the aperture used. Smaller apertures will give more CR. The problem with this is that if the T1 lens has a larger aperture, it also should provide more light output, not less. Also, what about the DMD convergence, how does this depend on the lens used?

Alan had a T3
And big numbers too.

I wonder if I am related to Ron Jeremy.

a new unit for me with t1 will be measured tomorror.

The lens can definitely change the sequential CR because of the aperture used. Smaller apertures will give more CR. The problem with this is that if the T1 lens has a larger aperture, it also should provide more light output, not less. Also, what about the DMD convergence, how does this depend on the lens used?

Yes, as you say I would than expect either to have MUCH MORE light with the T1 AND LOWER CR

OR

Less Light and better CR

BUT NOT

LESS LIGHT and Worse CR !!!

a new unit for me with t1 will be measured tomorror.

Great. Mine will have a T1 lens, so I'm more than just curious.

For what it's worth, my dVision 1080p has an equivalent short throw lens, and the optics are superb. Greg Rogers original review of the dVision in WSR showed that short throw lenses can produce outstanding results. I don' expect any less from the Lumis with a T1 lens.

Wolfgang

Is this unit to be a serial/production unit ?

Yes, as you say I would than expect either to have MUCH MORE light with the T1 AND LOWER CR

OR

Less Light and better CR

BUT NOT

LESS LIGHT and Worse CR !!!


yes normaly it should have more light and less cr.
but not less light and less cr!

Wolfgang

Is this unit to be a serial/production unit ?

yes a serial production unit.

time to revisit the HD6KM which has no DI issues any more (cf LCG remark on theproper setting)
and since you love high FTL, this one yields 4000 lumens at D65....

I wonder if I am related to Ron Jeremy.

Is he your big brother ?:D

Art

time to revisit the HD6KM which has no DI issues any more (cf LCG remark on theproper setting)
and since you love high FTL, this one yields 4000 lumens at D65....

no thanks.
the color the lumis have is still mutch better and the
low nativ cr. the christie have is with less than 2000 also not what i looking for.

the low native cr. they cant change as it is coming from the dual lamp
desing they use.
mutch light less cr.that system christie use inside
less light mutch cr. thats the system sim2 use.

Is he your big brother ?:D

Art

:) yuck :D

no thanks.
the color the lumis have is still mutch better and the
low nativ cr. the christie have is with less than 2000 also not what i looking for.

the low native cr. they cant change as it is coming from the dual lamp
desing they use.
mutch light less cr.that system christie use inside
less light mutch cr. thats the system sim2 use.

hi Wolfgang,
LCG clocked 16000:1 full power i think and the proper setting for the DI use now has no more color aberrations.
anyway i'll know soon here with testing one.

hi Wolfgang,
LCG clocked 16000:1 full power i think and the proper setting for the DI use now has no more color aberrations.
anyway i'll know soon here with testing one.

x 3 to 4 for dynamic between nativ and dynamic is ok and produce less
bugs.
x 6 to 10 or will be difficult to do without any bugs.

x 3 to 4 for dynamic between nativ and dynamic is ok and produce less
bugs.
x 6 to 10 or will be difficult to do without any bugs.

2000:1 to 16000:1 :8X = bugs more frequent ?

i really am curious to play with this machine soon

3DLP bright however are very sensitive to source noise

no thanks.
the color the lumis have is still mutch better and the
low nativ cr. the christie have is with less than 2000 also not what i looking for.

the low native cr. they cant change as it is coming from the dual lamp
desing they use.
mutch light less cr.that system christie use inside
less light mutch cr. thats the system sim2 use.


Wolfgang:

The colors can be dialed in perfectly so I don't understand why you say the Lumis have better color, that is simply untrue after calibration.

UPDATE: I am working on this problem with Sim2. So far the units currently at the factory are NOT testing this way. The couple instances of this seem to be not the norm. I will keep everyone posted when I get Free's replacement. Stay tuned.

I have not been able to measure brightness yet. I'm working on it with my dealer. I have encountered a more pressing problem.

My unit occasionally would start up with no blue channel so everything had a yellow hue to it. I have been able to work around this by powering everything down and starting it back up.

This morning it seems like doing this no longer fixes the problem.

Has anyone else encountered anything like this?

Wolfgang:

The colors can be dialed in perfectly so I don't understand why you say the Lumis have better color, that is simply untrue after calibration.

its not untrue.

i sad in my hd 6km tread very clear that i think that color can be
good after calibration.

how it can be done when the di will cange the color is not clear but even
if it can be a solution for it the thing is that the hd 6km need a color calibration the lumis right out the box is perfect.
its so good also the secound serial unit i got that there is no calibration
nessary see also my pictures in the first lumis test thread with the sample.
this color from the lumis is so good that you not can see color wise a differnce between my
barco cinema unit and that is very very good for a uhp lamp.
i never saw such a good uhp lamp color.

may that clear it up.

I have not been able to measure brightness yet. I'm working on it with my dealer. I have encountered a more pressing problem.

My unit occasionally would start up with no blue channel so everything had a yellow hue to it. I have been able to work around this by powering everything down and starting it back up.

This morning it seems like doing this no longer fixes the problem.

Has anyone else encountered anything like this?

Yup. Had the same problem...it was usually a problem with the fiber cable needing to be reseated.

Yup. Had the same problem...it was usually a problem with the fiber cable needing to be reseated.

Thanks Jason. I'll give that a try.

Christy

its not untrue.

i sad in my hd 6km tread very clear that i think that color can be
good after calibration.

how it can be done when the di will cange the color is not clear but even
if it can be a solution for it the thing is that the hd 6km need a color calibration the lumis right out the box is perfect.
its so good also the secound serial unit i got that there is no calibration
nessary see also my pictures in the first lumis test thread with the sample.
this color from the lumis is so good that you not can see color wise a differnce between my
barco cinema unit and that is very very good for a uhp lamp.
i never saw such a good uhp lamp color.

may that clear it up.

Wolfgang:

The color does not change when the DI is engaged, that problem was corrected....

UPDATE: I am working on this problem with Sim2. So far the units currently at the factory are NOT testing this way. The couple instances of this seem to be not the norm. I will keep everyone posted when I get Free's replacement. Stay tuned.

Perfect example why everyone should buy from AVS. :)

Wolfgang:

The color does not change when the DI is engaged, that problem was corrected....


sounds good fine.

I wonder if I am related to Ron Jeremy.

I am :)

Actually he is a great friend of mine, we've worked together for 3 decades.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30532649@N02/

I am :)

Actually he is a great friend of mine, we've worked together for 3 decades.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30532649@N02/

I hope you took a shower afterwords...

just saw the pics of your cars chris... i hate you. not personally you understand! :D

Next time i am back in Toronto, i will look for DVD mansion.

what if Sim2 thought that the Lumis was TOO Good (protecing the 5000e ) ?

Actually he is a great friend of mine, we've worked together for 3 decades.

Thats a helluva long career for a Fluffer.:D

Michael Imperioli looks like he is about to whack you in that picture.:D

Thats a helluva long career for a Fluffer.:D

LOL not quite cm, I've always been on the other side of the camera in all my production carreer. :)

Actually he is a great friend of mine, we've worked together for 3 decades.



The good news is it's great to see you with famous friends. The bad news is I knew who that was.:o

Art

this numbers are not from me they are from sim2 germany.

all measurments are made at d 65 with the max. picture size the optic can do.
they use a gretag macbeth eye one software colorfacts professionel 7.0.


all 3 units are production units.

1.my unit with t1 lens i return to them the measure.
(my numbers i measured in brackets)

center lumen 1570 (1540 lumen)
db on min. open iris 11354:1(11030:1)
db on max. close iris 12148:1
cr. nativ db off iris open 4320:1 (4200:1)
cr. nativ db off iris close 4666:1
ansi cr. in the 500:1 range (i measure about the same)

a secound new unit with t1 they measured.

center lumen 1620
db on max. open iris 11850:1
db on max. close iris 12691:1
cr. nativ db off iris open 4550:1
cr. nativ db off iris close 4889:1
ansi cr. in the 500:1 range

a new unit with t2 lens they measured.

center lumen 1960:)
cr. db on min. open iris 19820:1:)
cr. db on max. open iris 18550:1:)
cr. nativ 5450:1 iris full open:)
cr. nativ 5941:1 iris full close:)
ansi cr. in the 900:1 range.:)


so this makes it very clear.

1.my measurment about lumen and cr. are similar to the measurments sim2 did today.

2.seams that it is true what i hear and post earlier that the t2 lens have mutch better performance than the t1 lens.
t3 lens will be at least as good as the t2 may even a bit better.

lumen are 25% more with t2 than t1!
cr. nativ is arround 27% better with t2 than t1!
cr. db on is arround 63% better with t2 than t1!
ansi cr. about 80% better with t2 than t1!!!



summary:

sim2 must redesign this t1 optic to have a similar performance as the t2 and t3 lens have.

if you need (like me) the t1 lens well i guess its still one may be the best pr. that you can purchase
but than you have to live with the lower numbers in cr. and lumen.

may i will try a t2 pr. lets see.

hope sim2 will soon take care about this t1 lens problem and i not have to wait that long for such a new lens.

when you can use t2 and t3 lens and if there is no other bug
like missconvergence and othere problems i think this is the best pr. you can buy today.

None the less great news !The T2 numbers are very close to the preproduction units you guys had. Even if one of the lenses isn't up to snuff it now appears to be the device to beat.

Art

Whew... Many Thanks Wolfgang for sharing that info-- those numbers for the T2 are reassuring. Amazing to see the enormous difference that good glass makes in a projector.

So max picture size (max zoom) for those numbers would be lowest light output and highest contrast, right?

Thanks Wolfgang....
Ash

What are the ofiicial specifications on the sim2 Lumis for

D65 calibrated power out

ANSI contrast

On/off without Di

on/off with Di

Do they have official specifications that you can count on?

What are the ofiicial specifications on the sim2 Lumis for

D65 calibrated power out

ANSI contrast

On/off without Di

on/off with Di

Do they have official specifications that you can count on?

Wait,let me guess...you are going to ask for MTF data from SIM next and absent that will say that the projector can't be any good.

Art

What are the ofiicial specifications on the sim2 Lumis for

D65 calibrated power out

ANSI contrast

On/off without Di

on/off with Di

Do they have official specifications that you can count on?


The "official specifications" are those sent out in press releases, posted on their site, and in the Lumis brochure. Lumens are stated as 1200-3000 ANSI lumens, and Contrast Ratio is stated as "up to 35,000:1." Beyond that, there are no other "official specifications."

Jim

What is the closes you can be from the screen with a T2 lense in feet 10, 15, 18 feet? Thanks Greg

What is the closes you can be from the screen with a T2 lense in feet 10, 15, 18 feet? Thanks Greg

http://www.sim2usa.com/home/en/throw-ratio?nid=122&lense=T2

Thanks Jason. I'll give that a try.

Christy

Christy - did that do the trick?

this numbers are not from me they are from sim2 germany.

all measurments are made at d 65 with the max. picture size the optic can do.
they use a gretag macbeth eye one software colorfacts professionel 7.0.


all 3 units are production units.

1.my unit with t1 lens i return to them the measure.
(my numbers i measured in brackets)

center lumen 1570 (1540 lumen)
db on min. open iris 11354:1(11030:1)
db on max. close iris 12148:1
cr. nativ db off iris open 4320:1 (4200:1)
cr. nativ db off iris close 4666:1
ansi cr. in the 500:1 range (i measure about the same)

a secound new unit with t1 they measured.

center lumen 1620
db on max. open iris 11850:1
db on max. close iris 12691:1
cr. nativ db off iris open 4550:1
cr. nativ db off iris close 4889:1
ansi cr. in the 500:1 range

a new unit with t2 lens they measured.

center lumen 1960:)
cr. db on min. open iris 19820:1:)
cr. db on max. open iris 18550:1:)
cr. nativ 5450:1 iris full open:)
cr. nativ 5941:1 iris full close:)
ansi cr. in the 900:1 range.:)


so this makes it very clear.

1.my measurment about lumen and cr. are similar to the measurments sim2 did today.

2.seams that it is true what i hear and post earlier that the t2 lens have mutch better performance than the t1 lens.
t3 lens will be at least as good as the t2 may even a bit better.

lumen are 25% more with t2 than t1!
cr. nativ is arround 27% better with t2 than t1!
cr. db on is arround 63% better with t2 than t1!
ansi cr. about 80% better with t2 than t1!!!



summary:

sim2 must redesign this t1 optic to have a similar performance as the t2 and t3 lens have.

if you need (like me) the t1 lens well i guess its still one may be the best pr. that you can purchase
but than you have to live with the lower numbers in cr. and lumen.

may i will try a t2 pr. lets see.

hope sim2 will soon take care about this t1 lens problem and i not have to wait that long for such a new lens.

when you can use t2 and t3 lens and if there is no other bug
like missconvergence and othere problems i think this is the best pr. you can buy today.

very interesting
how is the video noise/dithering ?

very interesting
how is the video noise/dithering ?


Dithering ,probably pretty good since that is how DLP produces a picture !

Art

ah :)
dithering noise. especially with high lumens machines.
public is too acustomed to low noise pjs like lcd, lcos.

Got it ! The slash threw me.

Art

I have a question on the dynamic black feature: does it only engage when there is a certain threshold of black in the picture? For example, if there's a bright scene (e.g. daylight) would the there still be, say, 10k of contrast, deepening the colors and maintaining high ANSI? The 'dynamic' in DB has me wondering.

My understanding is it does not engage in full black out but does as soon as there is anything like stars,for example, in the image.

Art

I have a question on the dynamic black feature: does it only engage when there is a certain threshold of black in the picture? For example, if there's a bright scene (e.g. daylight) would the there still be, say, 10k of contrast, deepening the colors and maintaining high ANSI? The 'dynamic' in DB has me wondering.

Ian, you raise an interesting point re the potential role of the Unishape lamp technology in color saturation and the reportage of excellent color results in the Lumis UHP bulb that W.Mayer has detailed. My experience with the 3000e that has Unishape was that it has arguably better color saturation than the 3 chip C3X 1080. Subjectively, found this to be true and if you recall the Fifth Element Phloston Paradise bedroom scene with rich blues and gold was never quite as jaw dropping on the C3X as the 3000e. Could it be the Unishape/Dynamic Black tech in the 3000e holds some serious advantages in enhancing color saturation results ?

Ian, you raise an interesting point re the potential role of the Unishape lamp technology in color saturation and the reportage of excellent color results in the Lumis UHP bulb that W.Mayer has detailed. My experience with the 3000e that has Unishape was that it has arguably better color saturation than the 3 chip C3X 1080. Subjectively, found this to be true and if you recall the Fifth Element Phloston Paradise bedroom scene with rich blues and gold was never quite as jaw dropping on the C3X as the 3000e. Could it be the Unishape/Dynamic Black tech in the 3000e holds some serious advantages in enhancing color saturation results ?

good comment
the Unishape technology is imho a major breakthrough in DLP projectors.
the D80E is a stunning little beast, almost as bright as the C3X1080
on a 4meters scope screen (not it's place very close at 5.5meters or so, with ISCO lens).
and with just 165w lamp !!??

I didn't realize that the Lumis had a different type of bulb. Interesting.

I didn't realize that the Lumis had a different type of bulb. Interesting.

The modulating lamp is alleviating a % of the work load allowing the iris to not have to work as aggressive. This is why you do not see any artifacts from the iris.





.

Christy - did that do the trick?

Yes I reseated the 3 fiber optics and it has been working great.

Also on the lens issue, I have a T2 and I have been doing a lot of experimenting in my poorly (for now) light controlled room, which is 20 feet long and 15 feet wide, to choose a good screen size.

I have been playing a lot of Xbox 360 and PS2 games (Fable 2, Fallout 3, etc) since my other sources are not quite ready for prime time. I have been using a loaner 12" wide 16x9 firehawk g3 screen which has enabled me to experiment a lot with the image size to find the best balance between image size and PQ (luminosity and CR).

My sitting distance is 12" (eyes to screen.)

With the zoom control in this size room I can vary the image size from 50-60" high (10-12' wide on 2.4:1). Here is a table for reference


Height W(2.4:1) W(16:9) W(4:3)
----------------------------------------
50 120" 88.9" 66.7"
54 129.6" 96" 72"
56 134.4" 99.6" 74.7"
60 144" 106.7" 80"


What I found was that 50" looked plasma like but was too small for my wall. 60 was almost overwhelming in size and had a noticeable degradation in black level/contrast.

In the end I decided to go with 134.4" x 56, which gave a nice luminous picture and also appears to work with the smallest Schneider Cinedigitar Anamorphic lens with no vignetting. Final testing will need to be done once the new screen arrives.

I ordered a Stewart Vistascope VTC144S, which is a a variable masking 2.4:1 screen with BRIC controller. Now I can't wait to get it:)

So I am going at 60% of the largest size image on the throw of the T2.

Once I get my screen and curtains, I'll be able to report some real numbers.

Christy, you have the same size screen as me. I would be interested to know what your throw distance is.

http://www.sim2usa.com/home/en/throw-ratio?nid=122&lense=T2I consider myself pretty technical, but I must be having a senior day. In lieu of going to lookup the throws of the lenses I thought I'd play with their calculator.. It's not working for me. Gives the same result for T2 and T1. And T1 looks wrong.

I:
Choose T1
Units In
AR 16:9
Height button, enter 54
Caclulator reports 174-232",
Distance calculated is:203.15

Same numbers reported if I choose T2.

I don't see a way to produce a "zoom" on their calculator. Dragging the PJ icon results in a screen size change.

?

I consider myself pretty technical, but I must be having a senior day. In lieu of going to lookup the throws of the lenses I thought I'd play with their calculator.. It's not working for me. Gives the same result for T2 and T1. And T1 looks wrong.


The new website is definitely a little buggy. I had to navigate to a different page and back to get the different lens selection to work. There is nothing really different from the published throw ratios in there.

There is nothing really different from the published throw ratios in there.Not for the T2. Once you get it to give the numbers, for a 54" tall screen (96 wide) it reports 174.1 - 232.2. That's a TR of 1.81:1 - 2.41:1. What was posted previously (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15578225#post15578225)was the T2 was 1.75 - 2.48. OK, so it's reporting only 5.6" less range on the short end, but it is different. I haven't worried them to ask if they had their std. recommendation to stay off the lens limts built into their calculator. Or if one needs to add some more (take away some range) to the number the calculator produces.

The 1.75 - 2.48 is still the quoted spec (as of last week) for the T2, and yes, they do still recommend staying away from the extremes at either end.

Jim

I consider myself pretty technical, but I must be having a senior day. In lieu of going to lookup the throws of the lenses I thought I'd play with their calculator.. It's not working for me. Gives the same result for T2 and T1. And T1 looks wrong.

I:
Choose T1
Units In
AR 16:9
Height button, enter 54
Caclulator reports 174-232",
Distance calculated is:203.15

Same numbers reported if I choose T2.

I don't see a way to produce a "zoom" on their calculator. Dragging the PJ icon results in a screen size change.

?

Funny, I get different values when I punch those numbers in..

For T1: 137.61-153.46" throw range for a 54" height x 96.06" wide (110.24" diagonal) screen.

For T2 I get the numbers you listed above.

It appears we should just stick with the proven method of using our own calculators.:)

Jim

Thanks Jason. I'll give that a try.

Christy

Welcome!

Wait,let me guess...you are going to ask for MTF data from SIM next and absent that will say that the projector can't be any good.

Art

MTF would be Nice but no I am not asking for MTF specs. but

Do you have any answers to my specific questions?

The "official specifications" are those sent out in press releases, posted on their site, and in the Lumis brochure. Lumens are stated as 1200-3000 ANSI lumens, and Contrast Ratio is stated as "up to 35,000:1." Beyond that, there are no other "official specifications."

Jim

thank you

so if you get a unit that puts out 1220 ANSI Lumens and has an on/off contrast ratio of 2000:/1 and a misconvergence of 2 pixels at its center Officially according to the LUMIS Brochure this unit is in spec.

MTF would be Nice but no I am not asking for MTF specs. but

Do you have any answers to my specific questions?

But you know the answer to your own question. The whole thread is about the fact that we don't have that inforamtion only data points from members.

Art

thank you

so if you get a unit that puts out 1220 ANSI Lumens and has an on/off contrast ratio of 2000:/1 and a misconvergence of 2 pixels at its center Officially according to the LUMIS Brochure this unit is in spec.

Given the info I previously posted regarding their stated spec's for contrast and lumens (the only specs given by Sim), then "yes" they "could" claim the unit is within the stated ranges. However, knowing Sim as I do, I doubt they would consider your 2000:1 O/O hypothetical acceptable from a performance standpoint and would likely investigate further to determine what was causing this obviously low number considering what their actual testing has demonstrated with the Lumis.

Regarding convergence, you didn't ask for that in your original question. Although not published as a spec, I'm certain Sim would not find your hypothetical 2 pixels out at center acceptable. At one time historically Sim considered 0.5 at the center and less than 1 pixel at sides "within acceptable ranges." I would assume, at a minimum, this still applies.

Jim

Indeed, would 2 pixels MC at centre not be laughable from this caliber of machine, were it to be actually the case? Hardly something one would place in the ad copy..."Industry leading 2 pixel centre mis-convergence" :D



Given the info I previously posted regarding their stated spec's for contrast and lumens (the only specs given by Sim), then "yes" they "could" claim the unit is within the stated ranges. However, knowing Sim as I do, I doubt they would consider your 2000:1 O/O hypothetical acceptable from a performance standpoint and would likely investigate further to determine what was causing this obviously low number considering what their actual testing has demonstrated with the Lumis.

Regarding convergence, you didn't ask for that in your original question. Although not published as a spec, I'm certain Sim would not find your hypothetical 2 pixels out at center acceptable. At one time historically Sim considered 0.5 at the center and less than 1 pixel at sides "within acceptable ranges." I would assume, at a minimum, this still applies.

Jim

Christy, you have the same size screen as me. I would be interested to know what your throw distance is.

about 18.5 feet.

Christy

I would assume, at a minimum, this still applies.


Personally, I'm not that worried about a whole pixel, it's the fractional error that's important. The MC adjustment is in whole pixels.

In my unit, to test the MC adjustment and its impact on PQ, I pushed all colors left by a pixel and there was no visible difference on test patterns.

I believe 1 pixel is still the max spec error, but the point may be moot if the adjustment works as well as it seemed to.

Agreed CM. With the adjustment capability there should never be a case of a full pixel anywhere on the screen.

Jim

Sim2, and really most manufactuerers, don't give specifics on what is constituted as "defective". 99% of the time it is on a case by case basis, especially in regards to "floating" things such as misconvergence, contrast measurements, light output, etc...

so this makes it very clear.

1.my measurment about lumen and cr. are similar to the measurments sim2 did today.

2.seams that it is true what i hear and post earlier that the t2 lens have mutch better performance than the t1 lens.
t3 lens will be at least as good as the t2 may even a bit better.

lumen are 25% more with t2 than t1!
cr. nativ is arround 27% better with t2 than t1!
cr. db on is arround 63% better with t2 than t1!
ansi cr. about 80% better with t2 than t1!!!



summary:

sim2 must redesign this t1 optic to have a similar performance as the t2 and t3 lens have.

if you need (like me) the t1 lens well i guess its still one may be the best pr. that you can purchase
but than you have to live with the lower numbers in cr. and lumen.

Does anyone know if SIM intends to re-design or make any changes to the T1 lens, to bring it's performance closer to the T2 and T3 lens models??

I don't understand how the larger aperture lens constricts both contrast ratio and lumens. Admittedly, my knowledge of the subject can best be described as limited, but I was always under the impression that on/off contrast ratio would increase and lumens would decrease as lens aperture reduced. Can someone enlighten me how this would occur in laymen's terms?

I also don't understand how the issue with the serial units could be completely explained by the T1 since Free had a T2 I believe.

I also don't understand how the issue with the serial units could be completely explained by the T1 since Free had a T2 I believe.

Free unit was proven defective. The specs for production T2 is very close but just short to the specs to the T3.






.

I don't understand how the larger aperture lens constricts both contrast ratio and lumens.

I'm pretty sure we have no idea what the apertures of these lenses are since the question has been asked a couple of times without answer. All we know is throw ratio, which has nothing directly to do with aperture. I'm as puzzled as you, however, because short throw, i.e., wideangle, lenses generally tend to have larger apertures -- at least in the photo world.

Anyone know how much bulb replacement cost is on these?

Anyone know how much bulb replacement cost is on these?

I just looked in the price book...not listed. BUT, the 300 watt lamp for the HT5000E is $999 list, so I would ballpark around the same (maybe a tad less).

FYI there is a BIG price increase coming on the Lumis (nearly $4k retail) as of 3/1/09. Just and FYI for those debating...

FYI there is a BIG price increase coming on the Lumis (nearly $4k retail) as of 3/1/09. Just and FYI for those debating...

Is that Sims idea of a "Stimulus Package":rolleyes:
It's things like that that make me just not want to support that company.

JC

Is that Sims idea of a "Stimulus Package":rolleyes:
It's things like that that make me just not want to support that company.

JC

Joey, you are so funny!!!! You would never buy more than a JVC projector ANYWAY.

Joey, you are so funny!!!! You would never buy more than a JVC projector ANYWAY.

I'm looking towards the HD8200 from Optoma (quite a bit cheaper than the JVC).;)

It's just the principle and I don't understand the marketing stragety....Sell less...charge more?? Or is the demand so high? I think neither, more like ahhh lets grab another 4k from rich & famous they won't care. I'm neither, but it still bothers me. Maybe the projector out perfroms its specs and in that case let the customer baste in a great deal rather than charge them for the extra performance.

JC

Is that Sims idea of a "Stimulus Package":rolleyes:
.

JC

Joey, self stimulus is more like it. We can learn a lot from the Italians, they've been living under Socialist regimes for some time now and we could learn a lot from that experience by necessity. It's pretty impressive that a company can rise out of that environment to conduct business internationally. I really can't think of many that have pulled it off under that system: Ferrari, and maybe a few shoe designers stand out. I'm sure I'm missing some but you get the point...

Part of the problem with the Lumis ,as I found with the HT5000 as well, is the USD relative to the Euro. As the president has instructed enormous amounts of dollars to be printed ,expect this only to worsen.



Art

Can we pay Sim2 in Gold? :D I think I might 35 oz hanging around and I am Italian.

Can we pay Sim2 in Gold? :D I think I might 35 oz hanging around and I am Italian.

Art's an Orthodontist. Maybe he paid for his HT5000 with his customers' old gold fillings?:D

....As the president has instructed enormous amounts of dollars to be printed ,expect this only to worsen.
Art


It's actually worse than that, we are borrowing from China! (Again)

Jim

I thought there had already been a price increase in January for the US?

Here in the UK, there was a £4000 price increase on the Lumis in January, but everything is going up in price over here (except for my investments which are down almost two thirds!) :(

Sean

Can we pay Sim2 in Gold? :D I think I might 35 oz hanging around and I am Italian.

Not sure perhaps it could become like exhange with the old eastern block,potatoes were accepted.

Art

Maybe Sim knows that Lumis will eat into sales of HT 5000 which has a much higher MSRP! If companies do not make money we would not see advances in technology.
Ash

Maybe Sim knows that Lumis will eat into sales of HT 5000 which has a much higher MSRP! If companies do not make money we would not see advances in technology.
Ash

When you get to this level (proably the best possible device available for screens in the 12 to 16' range) new products are very very scarce as it is.

Art

Maybe Sim knows that Lumis will eat into sales of HT 5000 which has a much higher MSRP! If companies do not make money we would not see advances in technology.
Ash

Ash, do you have yours..

I am told mine is #1 on list and would ship today....
Could be installed as early as next week.
Ash

It did ship today.
Art ... is yours the 5000 or the Pro version?

Congrats Ash. These puppy's are scarce due to typical new product ramp up. I wonder when the flood gates will open.

Thanks Alan, looks like Dennis did his magic. And I found out that my projector is coming from Dennis through this post on AVS.
Since Dennis has chimedin, the plan is as follows:
1. Once Dennis gets it in Atlanta he will do initial calibration and measurements (Thanks Wolfgang for sending a list of measurements that should be taken).
2. Dennis crew will bring the Lumis to Houston and install and calibrate and take measurements again.
3. I am getting the Cineslide installed too....
The best part of working with a trusted and knowledgeable integrator is that in my case for example the Lumis will be measured even before it comes to my location.
the biggest advantage for example in my case is that Dennis is working on a solution to make it as queit as he can in my projector box.
Installation expertise just like video and audio calibration can help you achieve the optimum.
You may ask any measurement questions from Dennis if he choses to answer.
Ash

I'm looking towards the HD8200 from Optoma (quite a bit cheaper than the JVC).;)

It's just the principle and I don't understand the marketing stragety....Sell less...charge more?? Or is the demand so high? I think neither, more like ahhh lets grab another 4k from rich & famous they won't care. I'm neither, but it still bothers me. Maybe the projector out perfroms its specs and in that case let the customer baste in a great deal rather than charge them for the extra performance.

JC

The Optoma is plagued with issues...not trying to talk you out of it but just giving you a heads up.
We stopped selling them already.

I thought there had already been a price increase in January for the US?

Here in the UK, there was a £4000 price increase on the Lumis in January, but everything is going up in price over here (except for my investments which are down almost two thirds!) :(

Sean

Not sure in Europe...referring to the US version.


Congrats Ash! Enjoy!

Thanks Alan, looks like Dennis did his magic. And I found out that my projector is coming through AVS.
Since Dennis has chimedin, the plan is as follows:
1. Once Dennis gets it in Atlanta he will do initial calibration and measurements (Thanks Wolfgang for sending a list of measurements that should be taken).
2. Dennis crew will bring the Lumis to Houston and install and calibrate and take measurements again.
3. I am getting the Cineslide installed too....
The best part of working with a trusted and knowledgeable integrator is that in my case for example the Lumis will be measured even before it comes to my location.
the biggest advantage for example in my case is that Dennis is working on a solution to make it as queit as he can in my projector box.
Installation expertise just like video and audio calibration can help you achieve the optimum.
You may ask any measurement questions from Dennis if he choses to answer.
Ash

Congrats Ash! Looks like Dennis and AVS really came through for you.

Care to share what the measurements will be that Wolfgang has forwarded?

cr. nativ, cr. dyn. black, cr. Ansi
lamp High/Low Iris Open/Close for above three
centre convergence
lumen center lumen only its ok
white uniformty
shading

all at d 65.

I added center convergence.
Ash

As has already been stated, the price is related to the performance of the Euro.

As Aristotle said in 324 BC....... "If you cant afford the ticket, get to f*ck off the train, you're only stinking the place up anyway"

As has already been stated, the price is related to the performance of the Euro.

As Aristotle said in 324 BC....... "If you cant afford the ticket, get to f*ck off the train, you're only stinking the place up anyway"

Rest assured that the railroad bulls have already boarded the train, found me hiding in a dirty ol' box car, gave me a good whuppin' and threw my ass out the side.

FYI there is a BIG price increase coming on the Lumis (nearly $4k retail) as of 3/1/09. Just and FYI for those debating...

Now I can tell my wife that I saved nearly $4k buying a projector: "See honey, this home theater stuff is great for the bank account". :D

Now I can tell my wife that I saved nearly $4k buying a projector: "See honey, this home theater stuff is great for the bank account". :D

Welcome aboard the Coldmachine express!

The Optoma is plagued with issues...not trying to talk you out of it but just giving you a heads up.
We stopped selling them already.

Jason, I've been told that by several custom installers as well. I didn't want to say anything on the forum since I thought AV Science found Optoma reliable enough to sell. But now that I know you feel the same way, from what I've been told, I agree with you - TOTALLY. Mebbe JC will have tofind out the hard way!!@@

Jason, I've been told that by several custom installers as well. I didn't want to say anything on the forum since I thought AV Science found Optoma reliable enough to sell. But now that I know you feel the same way, from what I've been told, I agree with you - TOTALLY. Mebbe JC will have tofind out the hard way!!@@

We have always been a dealer for Optoma (really just about everything). A few years back we had an incident where we sold a bunch of a new model and had about a 90% return rate due to issues. Needless to say it was a nightmare getting them to take them back. And this was BEFORE all the talk about how they handle their customers since. So, when they finally had something worth looking at again (HD8200) we gave it a go. Well we have taken 100% of them back so shame on us for trusting. :)

I wanted to post this here as well:

I have the C3X 1080 with a T1 lens and am at 1.7 throw. I'm considering going to the Lumis and trying the T2 lens. For some reason, Sim chose lenses with no overlap between T1 and T2 and I'm exactly between the two in terms of throw being 1.7

Either way, I am at the maxed out end of the T1 and the opposite end of the T2... which would you go with?

The T1 Lumis has a lot of bugs and its performance is nowhere near the T2.
You get the brightest image at the closest end of T2 ... which you are...
I would definetely go with the T2.

T1 T2 T3

LUMENS 1550 1960 2242
CRDBON(oi) 11030 18550 22500
CRDBON(Ci) 12148 19820 25000
ANSI 500 900 1130


To further provide data behind Ash's statement.

I wanted to post this here as well:

I have the C3X 1080 with a T1 lens and am at 1.7 throw. I'm considering going to the Lumis and trying the T2 lens. For some reason, Sim chose lenses with no overlap between T1 and T2 and I'm exactly between the two in terms of throw being 1.7

Either way, I am at the maxed out end of the T1 and the opposite end of the T2... which would you go with?

It's not really that they choose it. What happened was that in the lens design the different lens shift positions were factoring in on the actual throw. In fact they used to rate them consecutively (T1 up to 1.75, T2 starts at 1.75, etc...). But they found it depended on the overall setup. So the ratings now take this worse case scenario into consideration. Still, I agree it isn't ideal for most people...I have 2 customers with similar troubles to what you are finding.

thanks for the heads up Jason ..I guess it was to good to be true.

Welcome aboard the Coldmachine express
.....next stop Purgatory:p

It did ship today.
Art ... is yours the 5000 or the Pro version?

5000

Art

T1 T2 T3

LUMENS 1550 1960 2242
CRDBON(oi) 11030 18550 22500
CRDBON(Ci) 12148 19820 25000
ANSI 500 900 1130


To further provide data behind Ash's statement.

Look at those overall performance numbers for the T3 !!!!!:cool:

Art

Yeah! coming from 100 ANSI of Qualia, if my Lumis does over 1000 ANSI, I can't wait to see how the picture will look...as I have never seen a picture with such high ANSI contrast.
Ash

Yeah! coming from 100 ANSI of Qualia, if my Lumis does over 1000 ANSI, I can't wait to see how the picture will look...as I have never seen a picture with such high ANSI contrast.
Ash

This is fairly depressing for those of us that have to use a T1 lens. :(

Yeah! coming from 100 ANSI of Qualia, if my Lumis does over 1000 ANSI, I can't wait to see how the picture will look...as I have never seen a picture with such high ANSI contrast.
Ash

Ash,
The combination is unlike anything any of us has seen.

Art

This is fairly depressing for those of us that have to use a T1 lens. :(

Yeah. That rules it out for me. :(

Art,
With my screen 'Only' 12 foot wide, and throw of 25.5 feet I will be at the brightest zoom position of the T3.
This means 22 to 26 ft l at low lamp closed iris.... theoretically, I have the most ideal conditions with regards to screen size andlens throw in my room for the Lumis.
The room is totally light controlled although I will have reflections unlike a bat cave.
The curved screen material Fire hawk perforated latest generation may not be the most ideal 1.0 gain I would like but I am not changing the screen material.
I am expecting top notch readings of CR and ANSI.
Will report as soon a s measurements are completed next week.
Ash

Yeah! coming from 100 ANSI of Qualia ...Was that just for the projector, or with the room? It has been quite a while, but I thought I got something like 270:1 to 300:1 for ANSI CR with my Qualia.

The Qualia might have been pretty good for MTF at full resolution compared to most LCOS projectors, but I would expect the Lumis to be much better there, even beyond just ANSI CR.

--Darin

Darin,
I did not measure.... but in communicating with Wolfgang, he said he measured 200 or even 100 ANSI once the Qualia bulb had 500 hours on the Qualia.
Ash

Darin,
I did measure 8 foot lamberts with my bulb at 500 hours. . . . . with lumis I can get 26 to 30 foot lamberts.
Did you measure CR of the Qualia?
The Dynamic CR of lumis is 25000 and native 6000.
Ash

Did you measure CR of the Qualia?I think I measured about 2000:1 on/off CR with the iris shut down and maybe 1000:1 or so with it open.

The Qualia was nice, but I'm guessing you'll really like the Lumis.

--Darin

As has already been stated, the price is related to the performance of the Euro.

So prices should be going down:

http://www.opalesque.com/index.php?act=TRTrial&and=show_atomic&no=43

As Aristotle said in 324 BC....... "If you cant afford the ticket, get to f*ck off the train, you're only stinking the place up anyway"

What is the source of this quotation?

So prices should be going down:

http://www.opalesque.com/index.php?act=TRTrial&and=show_atomic&no=43

If you look at the historic performance from the last few months, the Euro had gone from around $1.6 to $1.3.

Pricing decisions on manufactured goods aren't made on a current, short term, rally. Its not like the short lag time with commodity response.

What is the source of this quotation?

That question makes a seriously worrying read.:eek:

its from the book
"fake sarcastic comments to amuse a generation"

:D

T1 T2 T3

LUMENS 1550 1960 2242
CRDBON(oi) 11030 18550 22500
CRDBON(Ci) 12148 19820 25000
ANSI 500 900 1130


To further provide data behind Ash's statement.

Owen, may I ask where this data comes from? The first two columns look like Wolfgang's posts but I don't remember seeing any posts about the T3.

Owen, may I ask where this data comes from? The first two columns look like Wolfgang's posts but I don't remember seeing any posts about the T3.

T3 numbers are from Alan Gouger's reported measurements.

Owen, may I ask where this data comes from? The first two columns look like Wolfgang's posts but I don't remember seeing any posts about the T3.

I believe Alan's unit has a T3. Those are his numbers from the "Italian in the House" thread.

(Owen beat me to the draw by 2 minutes!) :P

Was that just for the projector, or with the room? It has been quite a while, but I thought I got something like 270:1 to 300:1 for ANSI CR with my Qualia.

The Qualia might have been pretty good for MTF at full resolution compared to most LCOS projectors, but I would expect the Lumis to be much better there, even beyond just ANSI CR.

--Darin

i have measure many qualias and a new one have arround 180-220ansi cr.

i measure also many older ones that have secound lamp and depends on the
air condition(smoking or not and so on...)
average was arround good 100:1 ansi only!

this measurment was made at my compleate black room.

only the new very best jvc rs 20 are in the close to 300:1 ansi range and this
is record for lcos.

may this numbers can drop like the qualia so its may nice if someone with
a havy used rs20 with at least 1000 hours can do such measurment
so see if this unit drop in ansi as well.

T3 numbers are from Alan Gouger's reported measurements.

Ah... great, thanks. So I think that means that in the field it's still the case that we have T1 measurements from a serial unit but T2 and T3 numbers only from pre-production units.

Ah... great, thanks. So I think that means that in the field it's still the case that we have T1 measurements from a serial unit but T2 and T3 numbers only from pre-production units.

You got it. We should have more data points this week hopefully.

Quote:
Originally Posted by howdydoody
What is the source of this quotation?

That question makes a seriously worrying read.
__________________

coldmachine,
I certainly didn't intend to worry you with my question. I was simply trying to clarify. I thought that you might have been trying to be funny and were quoting a line from a movie ( I imagined that this might have been a quote from someone trying to portray an offensive, snobbish elitest jerk). I guess that you were simply being yourself.

Aristotle Onasis?!

:p ;)

its from the book
"fake sarcastic comments to amuse a generation"

:D

What generation ?

Art

What generation ?

Art

Spontaneous Generation... ;)

Anybody have any news on when their unit is arriving?

We are told no more until end of April. I hope we get lucky and it is sooner.

As Smokey Robinson said, "a taste of honey is worse than none at all".

Art

I get my "honey" today! :D

Mine came in this Monday but was returned due to bad convergence and Host not taking RS232 or ip commands.
Dunno when I will get replacement.
Ash

Ash

How badly was the convergence off ?

long story short, we got two units one with T2 and other with T3.
T2 was perfect and T3 totally off.
Both host box would work with remote but would not respond with RS232 or IP.
Ash

long story short, we got two units one with T2 and other with T3.
T2 was perfect and T3 totally off.
Both host box would work with remote but would not respond with RS232 or IP.
Ash

Sorry to hear about that. Hopefully Sim2 will deal with this quickly for you.

Owl 1,
Please check and advise if your Host box is responding via RS232 or ip!
Thanks in advance.
Ash

Will have my dealer check it out and let you know.

Ash, did you have it long enough to form an impression of the PQ? Or better yet run any tests?

Will have my dealer check it out and let you know.
...and the software release number.

The PQ of the unit I just had here (it just went out to be installed) was excellent. It came from that last shipment (same as Ash) and was a T2. Initially MC'd by about 1.25 but I was able to adjust the Conv. to .25. No other issues, but did not test 232, Software was 3.13.90 F.

Jim

Forgot to mention, In my brief comparison between the Lumis and the HT5000 I have, it was obvious the Lumis has better Blacks and CR (didn't have the meter here to measure), but the differences were clearly visible. Light output, visually, was just as high as the 5K with 985 hours on the lamp (probably a bit higher than the 5K). I did however still prefer the overall presentation of the 5K (probably optics/lens, but could be the price I paid.:D)

That said, I decided to pick up the Lumis as well, so I play with them both and get measurements when the Lumis arrives.

Jim

Initially MC'd by about 1.25 but I was able to adjust the Conv. to .25.

Jim

Is that .25 pixel anywhere in the image?

That is an estimate, arguably could be a third out and that was nearer the sides. I'd put center at less than a quarter, but fringing was still visible on the test pattern and a 100 ire box I threw up in the center. Only visible at less than a few feet. To my eyes at least, it had no affect on the image.

Jim

OK...
Install started today... should complete by Thursday...
Picture is to Die For just outside the box... As soon as Dennis's crew left... I played with it.... Watched a bit of Transformers and Chicago.
I have never seen video like this before. Blacks are just... no words to express.. this without any calibration...
Convergence is near perfect without adjustment (I think since the red is maybe .25 pixel off and the service menu adjusts in .25 pixels there is no room for improvement).
The bad news is that my Firehawk G3 exhibits moire in the front row and I will have to change the fabric.... it seems that every time you get a new projector Stewart has special fabric specially for it... Oh Well!! I will change the fabric to Studiotek 130 Microperf very soon I was trying to avoid changing the screen material and Stewart has already tested fabric (Microperf patterns) for Lumis.
I will post measurements taken by the installers once the installation is complete...
I will answer any questions but please bear in mind that unlike many others in the forum I am not very technical... I cannot take measurements but surely will try my best.

Yea,0.25 pixels should be great. Ash, enjoy !:)

Art

Ash, have you noticed any artifacts with Dynamic Black on?

No artifacts....
A pristine picture....
I am using a Lumagen and the only source I have tried is Blu Ray.

Ash: PJ looks like a tight installation. I'd love another picture with the slide, if it's possible. What size is your screen?

No, not all all, the projector is very very small. The projector box I have housed a Qualia which is as big as a HT 5000.... lots and lots of room left over. We do have good ventilation and a active thermal system.
My screen is 12 foot wide 2:35 Micro perf. I think the T3 Lumis is ideal for this size screen as even at high lamp the picture is not 'too' bright. I am wondering that as the bulb decays and I at used to the bright picture I will bump up the lamp from low light now to high. ....
So if someone has say a 14 foot screen they may or may not find it to be sufficiently bright or may be not have more head room if they get used to the brightness.
My Lumis come with a cineslide system with latest round posts less the isco 3 which I had.
In Audio, the 3 identical 20 t Aerial speakers I installed as my front LC R, I haven't gotten over in 1 year, I am still in awe.
I feel the same about the Lumis, the picture is amazing and I feel it will be a while before I stop being in awe of it.
Ash

Congrats Ash, nice to see the issues were resolved.:)

Jim

So the Lumis is 'technically speaking, a masterpiece' (from your background JVC poster! :))

Seriously, congratulations! Looking forward to more pictures and numbers!

Sean :)

JG law: I will keep my fingers crossed... so for so good....
Sierra: Yeah....JVC is using my room to advertise the HD 750!. . . . If you take part in CEDIA.... they can let cedia members use your pictures....

Curious Ash, Stewart will turn the screen a certain amount to make the moire disappear... My current Microperf is turned 17 degrees.. Likely I will have to swap mine out as your previous perf was likely 17 degrees, too. Is the moire terrible... How is is it visible from the front row, but not 2nd row?

Doh! It's always something..

I'm curious to see what your final light output is after calibration as my set up, like yours, would be T3 wide open at end of zoom. Hopefully plenty bright in low lamp mode.

And congrats!!!!

Jeff: Yes, it is always something.
The moiré is running from top right to bottom left at a angle of 45 Degrees.
Also, my mistake, my material is not G3 as my screen was manufactured before Stewart came out with G3.
The moiré is visible from front seat only on bright scenes such as desert sand in Transformers. Although watcheable, we are now in uncompromising territory:cool:.... no way I would live with it.
I do not see any moire in 2nd row and this is where I like to sit.
The projector is very bright, I almost got used to the high lamp setting open IRIS but when I turned it down the picture was more soothing.
The variable Iris in the Menu has a slider….. a settings from O (closed) to 100 (open).Theoretically if low lumens is not a problem you should keep it at O for highest CR. In the Lumis manual it is recommended to keep it fully open at 100for home theater application. I like it open too!
I wonder what is the best position and why?
No measurements yet, may be not until tommorow.
Cant believe a diminutive piece like this can throw a picture I have never seen before.
You need to get one of these.
Ash

Almost all projectors have shortcomings but as you watch them they disappear, you get
accustom to that image over time and it sets a reference in your mind, we know no better.
The Lumis has a very natural image that does not distract due to any weakness just as a screen should disappear if its doing its job, you forget they are there. It would be educational after living with the Lumis for just one week to return back to our previous display just when you thought it could not get any better.

Alan,
The Moire is due to the Stewart Screen as its micro perfs were designed for the Qualia....
Stewart has tested the Lumis on a compatible micro perf pattern and is offering the screen to users.
Ash

Alan,
The Moire is due to the Stewart Screen as its micro perfs were designed for the Qualia....
Stewart has tested the Lumis on a compatible micro perf pattern and is offering the screen to users.
Ash

Ash,
Is this the x2 material with the tilted perf pattern ? My HT5000 had moire with the previous fabric,none with the x2

Art

Art,
I do not exactly what model number my material is, I ordered mid 2006 and installed November 2006...
I am told mine is before Stewart came out with 1080p specific material.
Ash

His original fabric is neither X2 nor G3. The perf pattern was set up for the Qualia's TD and pixel size/density.

Ash, ask Stewart to send you an angle finding kit, so you can find the absolute best angle for your specific projector. It may save you a lot of time and hassle... The angle can differ due to convergence even between same model projectors.

His original fabric is neither X2 nor G3. The perf pattern was set up for the Qualia's TD and pixel size/density.

Hi Dennis,
Now my screen is X2 G3 - 17 degree turn on the pixels.. Would I need an upgrade, too?? Seems I might be OK..

Thanks!!

"The bad news is that my Firehawk G3 exhibits moire in the front row and I will have to change the fabric"

If you can live with the image edges a bit inside or outside the screen borders, zooming in or out a touch may help.

"The Moire is due to the Stewart Screen as its micro perfs were designed for the Qualia...."

This is really too general statement.

Moire is due to interaction of the spacings of the perforations and pixels, and the latter is a function only of the display resolution and screen size.

By the way, I have noticed that with the curved cine-W using 1.3 gain studiotek, I do get some mirror effect in the sense the edges are reflecting light on to each other.... has anyone else noticed this? I notice it when the projector is not displaying any image, but merely a blank dark background (with no signal or such, but the bulb is on). I'm assuming this effect increases as you go towards a matte 1.0 screen.... simply because of the viewing angle increasing...

Ash,
My sincere congratulations on your new acquisition. I believe you have fixed the one thing that your system was sort of lacking compared to your other gear. Your move to an excellent 3DLP machine will enhance your viewing pleasure. Happy viewing. :)

JG law: I will keep my fingers crossed... so for so good....
Sierra: Yeah....JVC is using my room to advertise the HD 750!. . . . If you take part in CEDIA.... they can let cedia members use your pictures....

I've seen your theater being used by other advertisers they should be ashamed of themselves.:)

By the way, I have noticed that with the curved cine-W using 1.3 gain studiotek, I do get some mirror effect in the sense the edges are reflecting light on to each other.... has anyone else noticed this? I notice it when the projector is not displaying any image, but merely a blank dark background (with no signal or such, but the bulb is on). I'm assuming this effect increases as you go towards a matte 1.0 screen.... simply because of the viewing angle increasing...Interesting. I've not heard this before. I'm looking at a curved firehawk, which ought to assist in this regard. Ash is coming from a FH going to a ST130.

Ash or Dennis, be interested in your opinions on this.

I went from a Firehawk to a white screen (1.3 gain).. I prefer it. I'm in a full light controlled room.

"The Moire is due to the Stewart Screen as its micro perfs were designed for the Qualia...."

This is really too general statement.
Not at all. That's the way it was done and that's the way it is. The original perf angle was determined based upon pixel density/size, TD and lens system.

By the way, I have noticed that with the curved cine-W using 1.3 gain studiotek, I do get some mirror effect in the sense the edges are reflecting light on to each other.... has anyone else noticed this
Hard to say ... it could easily be too extreme a radius, or reflections off the side wall. Not something I have seen before. More data needed here. :) The whole angle of incidence/angle of reflection thing tells me this is not what is happening here. Not saying you don't have any issue, just saying I'm very skeptical it is the two sides of the screen having a light fest with each other.

The angle can differ due to convergence even between same model projectors.
I doubt that (not making an argumentative statement), just the math doesn't support that conclusion and convergence would have to be sooo far off the picture wouldn't be nice in any case. Again, pixel size, pixel density, TD and anamorphic lens operations. Perhaps you could enlighten me since I've never seen, or heard of this?

Jeff (theBland):
PM me your screen width, current projector, anamorphic lens and throw distance and I'll let you know.

I doubt that (not making an argumentative statement), just the math doesn't support that conclusion and convergence would have to be sooo far off the picture wouldn't be nice in any case. Again, pixel size, pixel density, TD and anamorphic lens operations. Perhaps you could enlighten me since I've never seen, or heard of this?

Jeff:
PM me your screen width, current projector, anamorphic lens and throw distance and I'll let you know.

That was information I received from someone at Stewart Screen as to why my screen was getting moire with my C3X1080. He sent me a kit to determine the best angle and it wasn't the standard angle they sent.

I'll PM you the info on my setup via PM.

This thread seems to have turned into the owner's thread... Is a rename or a merge in order?

I think everyone should use the owners thread, or merge this one into MY official thread. :)

I was just about to suggest the same thing. As it is, we're jumping back and forth between the two threads to follow comments. Alan?:)

Jim

His original fabric is neither X2 nor G3. The perf pattern was set up for the Qualia's TD and pixel size/density.

But not rotated from vertical.

Art

Hi Dennis,
Now my screen is X2 G3 - 17 degree turn on the pixels.. Would I need an upgrade, too?? Seems I might be OK..

Thanks!!

No moire with that material and an HT5000,bet you'll be OK.


Art

I shot the Lumis, amongst other units, onto an X2 screen. No issues whatsoever.

Doh! It's always something..



Just curious, does that mean that you have to eat the cost of the original screen (in Ash's case the one optimized for the Qualia) if it doesn't mesh well with the new projector or does Stewart give some sort of credit towards a moire-free screen? If not, it can really get pricey just to get an artifact free image. Sounds like the 12 to 14ft screens are in the 20k plus price range. Ouch. And I thought I got robbed with my 100 inch wide Screen Research motorized screen. Chickenfeed compared to this stuff.

Typically, unless you're going from one technology to another, it should not be a problem. Basically, if pixel size, density and interpixel gap doesn't change (much), you should not have a problem. (I'll verify after I have a bit of sleep.) We are having a single screen set up for both a DC4 based unit and a 4K unit.

"The Moire is due to the Stewart Screen as its micro perfs were designed for the Qualia...."

"This is really too general statement."

"Not at all. That's the way it was done and that's the way it is. The original perf angle was determined based upon pixel density/size, TD and lens system."

Except for the lens system, which I don't see as relevant (unless it's nice and blurry), you said essentially what I said.

The lens "system" does have an impact. If you're doing 2.35:1 by either horizontal stretch or vertical compression, you'll have a different relationship between 1.78:1 native and 2.35:1 anamorphic. This would be with a movable anamorphic lens system.

Ah, that kind of lens.

By the way, I have noticed that with the curved cine-W using 1.3 gain studiotek, I do get some mirror effect in the sense the edges are reflecting light on to each other.... has anyone else noticed this? I notice it when the projector is not displaying any image, but merely a blank dark background (with no signal or such, but the bulb is on). Are you sure this isn't just non-uniformity from the projector? What I would probably do if I wanted to make sure it was the screen is take a board (like black posterboard) covered with black velvet except for a hole in the center (maybe an inch or two in size) and block all of the image from the projector except for a small amount on one side of the screen. Then see if it seems to reflect to the other side and by how much. I already have a board that which is maybe 2'x3' for measuring ANSI CR, so it would be pretty easy for me to do it, but others would have to either make something or use something else to block most of the image.

--Darin