Has anyone else seen the editorial in the latest issue of WSR that is essentially a rant against people like us?

For those who haven't read it, the WSR editor takes issue with people bypassing local mom and pop home theater stores, doing their own research, and then shopping around for the best price for the equipment that they have chosen.

The editor identifies enthusiast forums (he does not mention AVS by name but who else could he have been referring to) as a source of the problem and seems to find something wrong with the sharing of information that we do here. Again, he seems to think that the only place that high end equipment should be discussed and purchased is in your local dealer's store.

I know the economy is bad right now and lots of people are hurting and I really understand the pain of those local dealers but I don't understand why WSR would single out us enthusiasts as a problem. Most of us are subscribers, right?

I have felt for some time that the local dealer model of sales is outdated, at least for me. I don't need help picking out equipment or setting it up. Why should I have to pay to keep people in business who offer a service that I don't need or want? I don't get it and he never seems to address this issue either.

What are everyone's thoughts on this issue?

I would agree with you in that I am glad I can buy cheaper online when I don't need to audition the equipment. However, I would definitely buy locally if it were something I auditioned at the store. B&M stores do provide a valuable service for some and it would be a shame to see them go out. I've felt for some time that they should start charging fees to let people auition equipment at their stores though - fully refundable if they buy there. This would go a little ways towards helping the stores out who show product to people that buy online.

One thing I have learned is that there are a lot of people onlline that will scam the system for everything they can. The editor at WSR is offbase though. I'm comfortable with buying online and would hate to have to rely on a store dealer or magazine reviews to purchase equipment.

I forgot about WSR, have not received an issue for a while. Are they online-only now?

i forgot about wsr, have not received an issue for a while. Are they online-only now?

lmao

:d

As a publisher, Gary Reber is going through tough times with his magazine. Note how much it has slimmed down . There are fewer pages, fewer articles, and most disconcerting to Reber, fewer ads. He is wrong to lash out like he has in that editorial, but I just chalk it up to a man who is confused and probably very frightened by not only the state of the economy, but the financial state of his magazine. As a retired publisher who spent 45 years in the industry, I know full well what hard times are like. But they are cyclical. Widescreen Review hasn't been around long enough to encounter the kind of downturn the economy has taken recently. He has skinned back the content of his magazine to a point where he will be losing subscribers. I know, because I had made a similar mistake during the first economic downturn I faced as a publisher of a bunch of newspapers and periodicals . I sent a note to Reber of my concern for what he is doing but he ignored it. Now he is writing these ridicullous editorial that will cause him to lose even more readers.

These are tough times.

Yes he is quoting AVS. I don't blame him. The internetS really put the high end B&M AV stores in a disadvantage. Now consumers like us has options and knowledge about the gears we spend. Not unlike before where you have to trust the commissioned salesman implicitly. Or "insiders" (sic).

I have been buying electronics for 20 years around LA and NY. I have seen them all and when I was working for companies that delivers this stuff you can't believe the stories I have heard. Yes there are "honest" salesperson but at the end of the day they still need to fill their quota.

Just yesterday I went to Fry's to buy some Blu-rays then I wander off to the movie soundtrack section and I found a CD that I like but they are charging full retail price on that. I whipped out my iPhone, click on SnapTell, took a picture of the product and bought the CD from an online site right there.

I mean damn. Its not even fair.

Everyone is responsible for the viability of their own business model.

Hey Lawguy,

What if people stopped using attorneys because they had access to how the justice system works, how to use the justice system, and what the law says?

It would save about 100 trillion a year in unnecessary posturing and litigation :eek:

Hey Lawguy,

What if people stopped using attorneys because they had access to how the justice system works, how to use the justice system, and what the law says?

It would save about 100 trillion a year in unnecessary posturing and litigation :eek:

People do and can - (e.g., www . nolo . com). Just another value judgment

What if people stopped using attorneys because they had access to how the justice system works, how to use the justice system, and what the law says?
I am personally involved in such a case right now. I hired an immigration lawyer to handle the immigration of my wife and her 2 boys from the Philippines to here. The attorney charged me a $3500 flat fee and began the proceedings. By doing my own research on the net, I soon discovered just how poorly and inefficiently the attorney was handling things and I have since taken over my own case. The attorney (who specializes in immigration law) was neither knowledgeable nor did he feel the urgency to proceed as fast as I wanted things to move.

I only wish I had known then what I know now...I would have saved myself $3500 and handled the immigration (USCIS and Visa processing) myself, and I would have shaved at least a couple of months off of this very lengthy ordeal. Since I have taken over, my wife now has her green card and her 2 boys will be flying here (with green cards) on the 10th of April. If I had followed the course the attorney was taking, my wife would still be waiting for her temporary work permit...:rolleyes:

I suppose I should be criticized for taking food off of the table for the poor attorney, right?

My problem with local custom install shops is two fold. The first problem that I have is that many do not even have current demo models any more in their rooms. For example last month I went to three local HT stores in my area to view the RS10/RS20. All of these stores mind you were authorized JVC resellers. Not one of them had a RS10/RS20 on sight to view or buy for that matter. The best they could do was tell me how good they think it is. Well if you are not even going to make the effort to get my business then why the hell should I give it to you.

The second problem I have is that many custom installers expect you to allow them to provide you with a full install and charge you extra for all these services that I don't need or require. Most of the custom HT stores make their money off the install not so much the projector itself. Half the fun of being an enthusiast is doing the job yourself. It's the setting up the screen, mounting the projector, designing or retrofitting your room all that stuff that goes into building your home theater. If someone else does it, it looses some of its enjoyment, IMO. So are we expected to just pay extra for what we don't need just to keep these stores in business? Just asking?

Now of course some things are better left to the professionals, such as calibrating, and servicing the equipment. I used to find going to HT stores in my area enjoyable. Back when stores like HI-Fi Buys were in business I could go to the store, walk into a demo room and see, for instance the "Black Pearl" in action. Then, if I was so inclined, I could actually purchase the projector and take it home that day and be up and watching by that evening. That is almost impossible to do now. Most HT stores aren't even stores anymore. Some HT stores in my area, are nothing more than people using their homes as a business. "Uh you can tell me which one you like and I call JVC and have it delivered for you in about six or seven days." Well hell I can do that. What do I need you for if that's all you are willing to do. Regardless of the state of the economy if you are not even going to provide me a quality demo, than I am not going to waste my time.

I can come to AVSFORUMS and talk to owners of the RS20. I can ask people like Mark.P and mrlittlejeans what they like and dislike about the RS20. They will tell me what the projector can do. I can go into the RS20 and RS10 owners threads and get more and better quality information in many cases, that is sorely lacking for local custom HT stores in my area. Then after I have got a consensus of the product I can go out and purchase the item. It still isn't as good as seeing it first hand, but it is about the only option now that most HT stores don't even have a unit in the store for a proper demo.

Like I said all the Ht stores in my area had no projector to demo. I ended up having to drive almost fifty miles just to see the RS20 in action, and this was months after the RS20 had been shipped out to dealers and custom shops. That is unacceptable. If you, meaning the custom installer, are not going to make the effort to get the sale, than you are probably not going to get the sale.

It seems to me that many HT stores and installers are taking a half ass approach to selling A/V merchandise. They would rather put as little effort possible to make the sell. There is no question that many of us would, if given the opportunity, see the product and purchase the product from a local HT dealer. But that does not mean that we are willing to sacrifice our standards and nor should we be expected to do so. Either provide the customer with the proper tools to make an informed decision, or get the hell out of the way.

This is only one mans opinion. Of course I do also realize that there are still a few custom HT stores and dealers, that are willing to go out of their way to provide potential customers with a demo of the product they are selling and to those dealers I would like to say thank you.

Knowledge is Power.

I have a big problem with anybody telling me that my being more knowledgeable and informed is a danger to other people/businesses...

It seems to me that those people/businesses are preying on people's ignorance in order to enrich themselves.
Bob Sorel's example is a great one.

I understand Gary's nostalgic lament, however he seems to imply the blame lies mainly with manufacturers who allow their merchandise to be sold on the internet, in large chain stores, and by non-stocking installers/retailers. Consumer electronics companies are in large part publicly owned corporations and are required to maximize profitability. While they can temporary resist public demand often through legislation like "Fair Trade" laws, eventually they must bow to customer demand or suffer loss of profitability. The demise of small stocking specialty stores follows a retail trend that started back in the 1960's beginning with the Sony vs FedMart law suits. This commodization of retail products is not unique to electronics and will probably continue despite the best efforts of Gary, specialty electronic manufacturers, and Congress.

I think what is most at risk is the vast middle market for electronics that most Forum members shop in. Spending $3,500 on a projector requires knowledge and understanding of the sometimes subtle differences in picture quality and performance. While knowledge gleaned from this Forum helps, keep in mind that filtering the noise from the information is time consuming and that the readers on this Forum are but a tiny fraction of one percent of the consumer electronic buying public.

With 33% of HDTV owners not watching any HD contend (WSR own statistic) what is needed to educate consumers is not a throw back to the days of mom and pop hi-fi stores, but an new lower cost paradigm to educate consumers. Otherwise the middle market will eventually disappear and our only choices will be ultra-high priced custom equipment or Wal-Mart Viore Brand electronics.

I will say it's a general failure of the industry as a whole. HDTV one of the most exciting things to happen to the industry, and they have failed in every way to educate the consumer.

15 years after it's inception the majority of the population is clueless about the details.:(

Or how about the government spending 7 billion to educate people on the digital conversion. Still they push it back. They could have just bought everyone in America a set top box.

Slightly off topic, but perhaps also part of the motivation for the article...

I used to read all the HT magazines, including WSR. But since I found AVS this has slowed to a trickle. The main reason is that for most of what I want to know I get the information much more quickly here. It can be frustrating to pick up a magazine and see a review about "state of the art" technology that is at least one generation behind the curve. Not only do I no longer need my local AV stores to keep me informed, but with a few notable exceptions, I also no longer need these publications.

That said, I still purchase from a local dealer and if there is a particularly informative article that I want, I buy the magazine.

My problem with local custom install shops is two fold. The first problem that I have is that many do not even have current demo models any more in their rooms. For example last month I went to three local HT stores in my area to view the RS10/RS20. All of these stores mind you were authorized JVC resellers. Not one of them had a RS10/RS20 on sight to view or buy for that matter. The best they could do was tell me how good they think it is. Well if you are not even going to make the effort to get my business then why the hell should I give it to you.

The second problem I have is that many custom installers expect you to allow them to provide you with a full install and charge you extra for all these services that I don't need or require. Most of the custom HT stores make their money off the install not so much the projector itself. Half the fun of being an enthusiast is doing the job yourself. It's the setting up the screen, mounting the projector, designing or retrofitting your room all that stuff that goes into building your home theater. If someone else does it, it looses some of its enjoyment, IMO. So are we expected to just pay extra for what we don't need just to keep these stores in business? Just asking?

Now of course some things are better left to the professionals, such as calibrating, and servicing the equipment. I used to find going to HT stores in my area enjoyable. Back when stores like HI-Fi Buys were in business I could go to the store, walk into a demo room and see, for instance the "Black Pearl" in action. Then, if I was so inclined, I could actually purchase the projector and take it home that day and be up and watching by that evening. That is almost impossible to do now. Most HT stores aren't even stores anymore. Some HT stores in my area, are nothing more than people using their homes as a business. "Uh you can tell me which one you like and I call JVC and have it delivered for you in about six or seven days." Well hell I can do that. What do I need you for if that's all you are willing to do. Regardless of the state of the economy if you are not even going to provide me a quality demo, than I am not going to waste my time.

I can come to AVSFORUMS and talk to owners of the RS20. I can ask people like Mark.P and mrlittlejeans what they like and dislike about the RS20. They will tell me what the projector can do. I can go into the RS20 and RS10 owners threads and get more and better quality information in many cases, that is sorely lacking for local custom HT stores in my area. Then after I have got a consensus of the product I can go out and purchase the item. It still isn't as good as seeing it first hand, but it is about the only option now that most HT stores don't even have a unit in the store for a proper demo.

Like I said all the Ht stores in my area had no projector to demo. I ended up having to drive almost fifty miles just to see the RS20 in action, and this was months after the RS20 had been shipped out to dealers and custom shops. That is unacceptable. If you, meaning the custom installer, are not going to make the effort to get the sale, than you are probably not going to get the sale.

It seems to me that many HT stores and installers are taking a half ass approach to selling A/V merchandise. They would rather put as little effort possible to make the sell. There is no question that many of us would, if given the opportunity, see the product and purchase the product from a local HT dealer. But that does not mean that we are willing to sacrifice our standards and nor should we be expected to do so. Either provide the customer with the proper tools to make an informed decision, or get the hell out of the way.

This is only one mans opinion. Of course I do also realize that there are still a few custom HT stores and dealers, that are willing to go out of their way to provide potential customers with a demo of the product they are selling and to those dealers I would like to say thank you.

Completely agree-

I also went to three shops in my area that were all authorized JVC dealers no RS10 or 20 on display. One even had a theater with NO projector set up and tried to sell me and RS1 for $6k. I told him how much I could get an RS10 for from AV Science and he lost all interest in talking to me.:mad:

These shops seem to be for folks who don't want to think and the only effort they want to put into their theater is to write a check and open the door for the installers. But in this economy there are few people who are going to pay full MSRP and outrageous install prices for their equipment.

I agree that un-authorized internet dealers are hurting the custom installer and local HT stores. I would never buy from an un-authorized reseller, but realize many people do and have. Companies like JVC and Mitsubishi have clear warning on their websites and other literature warning consumers of the dangers of buying from un-authorized resellers. Still many people do it anyway, and then bitch after the fact when their warranty is voided. This is a problem and companies are trying to address the problem as best they can. JVC has even taken legal action against several companies that have violated it's policies.

I am very much against this practice of un-authorized reselling and agree it has hurt the industry. However the custom HT dealers have also hurt themselves by failing to take advantage of their biggest selling point, something that online dealers can't provide and that is first hand viewing and proper demonstrations of the products. When they stop using their strengths it only makes the online dealers more attractive.

Lawguy,

I am a B&M dealer. I am glad my client base isn't people like you and me. My clients, for over 20 years now, have mostly been 40-50 year old men who want to pay me to be their A/V guy so that I can make informed decisions for them and they don't have to learn anything except how to push a button to turn their system on. I would not enjoy being in business if my clients were like us :D I'm glad people that want to be their own decision maker and learn about A/V and that they have the internet to do so.

FWIW I have all new projectors in my store including a new JVC and Sony.

I am very much against this practice of un-authorized reselling and agree it has hurt the industry. However the custom HT dealers have also hurt themselves by failing to take advantage of their biggest selling point, something that online dealers can't provide and that is first hand viewing and proper demonstrations of the products. When they stop using their strengths it only makes the online dealers more attractive.

I, like many other dealers, have taken a lot of time to give proper demonstrations to people. However, I can tell you that many of those who came in for the demo were just people trying to see the equipment first hand before they purchased it from the net. The funny thing is that the people that require the most time to evaluate a projector and ask the most questions are generally the people that purchase them from the internet.

I haven't read the article but I do understand some of feelings of pre-Internet nostalgia. The Internet has proven to be one of the largest (if not the largest) socio-economic driver in modern times. The slow death of printed media and B&M shops is just a small microcosm of the larger dynamics of Globalization, Outsourcing, and OffShoring. The world has permanently changed and it will continue to change and in ways that may not be good for the U.S.

I, like many other dealers, have taken a lot of time to give proper demonstrations to people. However, I can tell you that many of those who came in for the demo were just people trying to see the equipment first hand before they purchased it from the net. The funny thing is that the people that require the most time to evaluate a projector and ask the most questions are generally the people that purchase them from the internet.

You are right Chadly25. That's why it is very important that companies do all they can to keep unauthorized internet dealers from selling their projectors. As I said before I have always, when available, purchased my equipment from local HT shops. I have been very loyal to local delaers, unfortunately many have closed their doors and have been replaced by less than worthy dealers. I agree that there are people out there who will unfortunately always look for products that can be had for well under MSRP and don't care that they are hurting reputable dealers like yourself. That has always been a problem, and has only grown since the presence of internet sites like Ebay.

The average customer will go on Ebay and find a new projector that is being sold for sometimes 20-30 % off MSRP. Now most if not all these sellers are unauthorized resellers. That of course doesn't stop them from selling and I guess they aren't the least bit fazed by legal action. To the average consumer this is too much of a bargain for them to pass up. Of course you are going to have these people that will not buy local and will only use the local HT stores as just a reference. Believe me I understand that local dealers have to watch their overhead and that having 30 JVC projectors in stock is not cost effective. I also understand that margin are very tight at the local level and that they can't compete in most case with the internet sales. That is again why I support JVC policy on Internet sales. And wish more people did as well.

Sorry I was not trying to disparage good HT dealers. There are many out there. It just seems that there are quite a few in my area that are not in business to provide the kind of support and information that many enthusiast demand and expect.

Now most if not all these sellers are unauthorized resellers. That of course doesn't stop them from selling and I guess they aren't the least bit fazed by legal action.One reason they probably aren't fazed by legal action is because manufacturers often lose cases like these when the courts decide. At least that is my impression. Manufacturers would generally like to have a lot more control of whether somebody can sell a product from that manufacturer which the person/company owns than the law allows.

--Darin

Hey Lawguy,

What if people stopped using attorneys because they had access to how the justice system works, how to use the justice system, and what the law says?

It would save about 100 trillion a year in unnecessary posturing and litigation :eek:

I say "good." What lawyers do is like what any other professional does. If someone has no need for my services than why should they pay me? Lots of lawyering is pretty complicated and I wouldn't recommend it to a DIYer. Lots of other stuff can easily be done if you put in the effort to learn, see Bob Sorel's example.

When I bought my first house I did so much stuff myself (from hanging doors to plumbing) because I enjoyed it and because I saved a lot of money. Now, I just pay someone, not because I can't do it but because I don't want to anymore.

As an aside, in my experience it is not the lawyers who make legal matters so nasty, it is the clients. There are exceptions to this, of course, but I have found it to be true.

Lawguy,

I am a B&M dealer. I am glad my client base isn't people like you and me. My clients, for over 20 years now, have mostly been 40-50 year old men who want to pay me to be their A/V guy so that I can make informed decisions for them and they don't have to learn anything except how to push a button to turn their system on. I would not enjoy being in business if my clients were like us :D I'm glad people that want to be their own decision maker and learn about A/V and that they have the internet to do so.

FWIW I have all new projectors in my store including a new JVC and Sony.

This is why I don't see how we are the problem!

One reason they probably aren't fazed by legal action is because manufacturers often lose cases like these when the courts decide. At least that is my impression. Manufacturers would generally like to have a lot more control of whether somebody can sell a product from that manufacturer which the person/company owns than the law allows.

--Darin

Thanks darnip2. I was not aware the courts were throwing out many of these cases. That would certainly hurt the local HT stores even more so.

Another thing I don't understand is how some of these Internet sites can under cut the local dealers by so much. With the margins so tight how can some of these people on the net be making any money. Of course I realize many don't have the overhead expenses of local shops that have payroll expenses, leasing fees, etc. Still though it seems some of the prices I see on the Internet are well below what they should be.

One reason they probably aren't fazed by legal action is because manufacturers often lose cases like these when the courts decide. At least that is my impression. Manufacturers would generally like to have a lot more control of whether somebody can sell a product from that manufacturer which the person/company owns than the law allows.

--Darin

The truth is that manufacturers have almost complete control over their chain of distribution. This control became even stronger when the Supreme Court recently held that manufacturers could fix prices at which goods could be sold.

Most manufacturers have resisted exercising lots of control, even though they are able to do so. As yourself why manufacturers allow discounting, greymarketing and covert internet sales to go on when they could easily stop these practices.

I haven't read the article but I do understand some of feelings of pre-Internet nostalgia. The Internet has proven to be one of the largest (if not the largest) socio-economic driver in modern times. The slow death of printed media and B&M shops is just a small microcosm of the larger dynamics of Globalization, Outsourcing, and OffShoring. The world has permanently changed and it will continue to change and in ways that may not be good for the U.S.


Yes. Many of these changes are very troubling. Everything seems to be made somewhere else and that includes goods and services. We have to be a country that makes things of value (again, both goods and services) and does not just consume things that were bought on credit.

Thanks darnip2. I was not aware the courts were throwing out many of these cases. That would certainly hurt the local HT stores even more so.

Another thing I don't understand is how some of these Internet sites can under cut the local dealers by so much. With the margins so tight how can some of these people on the net be making any money. Of course I realize many don't have the overhead expenses of local shops that have payroll expenses, leasing fees, etc. Still though it seems some of the prices I see on the Internet are well below what they should be.

I think if you own a business you see that the points you made and know about brick and motar expenses would indeed account for enough difference.

Art

The truth is that manufacturers have almost complete control over their chain of distribution. This control became even stronger when the Supreme Court recently held that manufacturers could fix prices at which goods could be sold.Maybe it has changed recently, but in the past I am pretty sure manufacturers could not forbid Costco from selling their items for whatever they wanted. They could try to find ways to keep Costco from getting their items, but couldn't just stop Costco from selling their items because they didn't want Costco selling them.
Most manufacturers have resisted exercising lots of control, even though they are able to do so. As yourself why manufacturers allow discounting, greymarketing and covert internet sales to go on when they could easily stop these practices.Yes, I know there is some benefit from the extra sales to them. A Costco newsletter mentioned a case where a manufacturer called them all upset about their product being sold in Costco and it turned out most of their sales were actually going through Costco, so they ended up making a direct deal with Costco.

In the past the company behind K2 skis couldn't keep some skis that were meant for overseas from being sold in the US at a big discount (they tried to make people believe that these skis were inferior instead from what I was told) and Oakley couldn't keep Costco from selling their sunglasses from what I saw and was told, but as I mentioned, it sounds like this may have changed more recently.

--Darin

Maybe it has changed recently, but in the past I am pretty sure manufacturers could not forbid Costco from selling their items for whatever they wanted. They could try to find ways to keep Costco from getting their items, but couldn't just stop Costco from selling their items because they didn't want Costco selling them.
Yes, I know there is some benefit from the extra sales to them. A Costco newsletter mentioned a case where a manufacturer called them all upset about their product being sold in Costco and it turned out most of their sales were actually going through Costco, so they ended up making a direct deal with Costco.

In the past the company behind K2 skis couldn't keep some skis that were meant for overseas from being sold in the US at a big discount (they tried to make people believe that these skis were inferior instead from what I was told) and Oakley couldn't keep Costco from selling their sunglasses from what I saw and was told, but as I mentioned, it sounds like this may have changed more recently.

--Darin

You are correct that once a greymarketer like Costco gets a product, that the manufacturer can't stop Costco from selling the product.

Someone is selling the stuff to Costco, however, and the identity of the responsible distributor is easily discovered and the greymarketing can easily be stopped. This is rarely done.

There are problems with exercising too much control. Sony is now trying price fixing with the vw-70. No sales below the Sony price. How many of us own a vw-70? Don't all raise your hands at once. I bet more people bought vw-80s from Australia than bought vw-70s domestically. So, competition punishes manufacturers who are too aggressive against their ultimate customers.

With projectors in general, quality has risen all across the board. The low end is pretty high quality these days so I think manufacturers are fearful of being too aggressive because companies like Panasonic have a business model of raising quality and lowering price.

There are problems with exercising too much control. Sony is now trying price fixing with the vw-70. No sales below the Sony price. How many of us own a vw-70? Don't all raise your hands at once. I bet more people bought vw-80s from Australia than bought vw-70s domestically. So, competition punishes manufacturers who are too aggressive against their ultimate customers.

I wouldn't attribute the slow VW70 sales to the price fixing as much as the lack of improvement/higher price compared to the VW50. I sold a ton of VW50's last year but have not sold one VW70 and probably won't.

Edit: I was speaking of VW60's not the 50's

I buy items based on Internet feedback, but I also like to support local stores when possible. I appreciate being able to walk into certain high end audio or AV stores and see various displays set up for viewing. And since I am acquainted with several dealers I understand how they can be affected by people simply using the overhead that dealer has spent on having a showroom to view products that the customer will just go order cheaper somewhere else.

So I try as best I can to always be very upfront about what I intend to buy or not and not simply use a show room if there is no possibility of my buying anything. I looked at an Epson projector several times at a local AV store. If I went with that projector I would definitely buy it from that store. Same with another store I viewed the Mitsubishi projector. I'd buy it from that store. Likewise with the Sony projector I viewed. For me, supporting businesses from which I gain some value - e.g. being able to see the displays I'm interested in in local AV stores - is worth the (often little) extra money in buying from the store than ignoring the plight of those businesses. In fact, if I've enjoyed the use of a showroom in some stores and I end up not buying the item in question, I often look for something else I might buy from them. I viewed some projectors several times in one high end store and ultimately decided I wanted to go with the JVC projector instead. But when it came time to buy a receiver I bought it from that store, despite that I could have gotten it a bit cheaper elsewhere, because I appreciated the value the store had offered me related to other items.

So, I guess I'm saying I can see both sides of the coin - good reasons to fully DIY buying items from the Internet and eschew stores - but also other good reasons to support local stores.

I'm much more worried about not being able to audition high end audio equipment than projection displays. It seems most of the high end audio shops of years past have either closed shop or changed to a custom install business without much focus on audio gear. I hope this wasn't due to the advent of Audiogon or the like which greatly expanded the market for used audio gear and gave many of us the ability to audition equipment not in our geographic area without taking too much of a hit in price if we don't like the equipment. I know though that there are plenty of people who would audition a piece in the store and then buy on Audiogon, which I personally wouldn't do.

Anyway, it would be a shame if I had to buy expensive speakers without being able to hear them somewhere firsthand but I think this is the path we'll eventually land on.

The manufacturers have complete control of the situation if they want to control it. But, it comes down to the fact that the manufacturer makes just as much money no matter who ends up selling it. They have an incentive to huff and puff and trying to seem like they are protecting their dealer networks. But, at the end of the quarter when they are trying to make their numbers and want to move product they have no real reason not to look the other way if a distributor orders a lot of product.

If I do not want to see the product in advanced (going on word of people I trust) I have no trouble ordering on the internet. If I go into a store, I tend to try to buy from a store, but I demand a discount. I just bought a new 5.1 speaker set. I had a list of the B&W dealers and ended up buying from the first one I visited since he made me a deal. If he had just done MSRP, I would have gone to the next one on the list. Most B&M dealers I have worked with will give some sort of deal. No, they do not tend to give the 30% off you find on the internet, but 10-20% is not uncommon. A lot of times they will have demo items too that they will beat the internet and come with full warrantee.

Yes. Many of these changes are very troubling. Everything seems to be made somewhere else and that includes goods and services. We have to be a country that makes things of value (again, both goods and services) and does not just consume things that were bought on credit.

Exactly. Working in engineering I've seen a sea change happen in the past 5-10 years that seems to be accelerating. Whatever can be done more cheaply somewhere else is being moved elsewhere. Something like 60% of all jobs in the U.S. can be done more cheaply offshore, so if we allow that to happen we will be left with no middle class. The heads of giant multinational corporations that live in the U.S. will be very well off, but they may be the only ones.

I also think that a lot of the credit debt that Americans ran up over the past decade was possibly due to a subconscious attempt to cling to a standard of living that could no longer be maintained. The U.S. could be in for a tough time until wages become more balanced world-wide which will probably take decades. Most economic projections show that in the coming decades, that the U.S. will economically be at best 2nd in the world behind China and probably third after both India and China.

As consumers one thing we can do is try and support the things that we want to encourage. I refuse to shop at Walmart for example, and I support printed media by subscribing to 3 newspapers and many magazines. Unfortunately there has been so many cutbacks to newspapers that the content isn't really there anymore. At one time it used to be fashionable to say, "Buy American" but nowadays things are so globalized that it has little meaning.

There is a good book on the subject by the economist Thomas Friedman called, "The World is Flat". Some of the issues that the book talks about are pretty troubling. We could be headed towards a new Industrial Revolution where minions of people worldwide compete for limited jobs for huge multinationals. In fact there are already high-tech sweatshops where workers are forced to work long hours at low wages, not making textiles mind you but writing software.

Imho, people shouldn't be worried so much about B&M highfi stores but where globalization will take the planet in the next few decades...

I wouldn't attribute the slow VW70 sales to the price fixing as much as the lack of improvement/higher price compared to the VW50. I sold a ton of VW50's last year but have not sold one VW70 and probably won't. Edit: I was speaking of VW60's not the 50's

But for the internet aware the fact that the VW70 is a down spec VW80 that can be had for about half the price sure isn't going to help sales. And a 3 times increase in native on/off, a 50% increase in ANSI, better colour uniformity etc is hardly a lack of improvement performance wise.

And as for the subject at hand, as long as manufacturers are willing to supply on-line sellers (I was going to call them "box movers" but that doesn't really apply anymore as they never handle the box) that are happy to make 5% for taking your order and acting as a middle man between their distributor and you then walk in dealers are in serious trouble. And little wonder they [don't] want to stock demo units, who can blame them.

But for the internet aware the fact that the VW70 is a down spec VW80 that can be had for about half the price sure isn't going to help sales. And a 3 times increase in native on/off, a 50% increase in ANSI, better colour uniformity etc is hardly a lack of improvement performance wise.

And as for the subject at hand, as long as manufacturers are willing to supply on-line sellers (I was going to call them "box movers" but that doesn't really apply anymore as they never handle the box) that are happy to make 5% for taking your order and acting as a middle man between their distributor and you then walk in dealers are in serious trouble. And little wonder they want to stock demo units, who can blame them.

The VW80 in no way would keep me from being able to sell a VW70 as my clients have never heard of either and thus don't know the differences.

Is the VW70 really 3x native....Wow. I would have never guessed that. My lasting impression was viewing it at CEDIA and feeling that the VW70 didn't appear any better than my VW60. I am really glad to see that they are improving the native CR though. If we get a VW90 next year with another improvement in native plus motionflow I will need to get one. I was all ready to purchase the 70 until I found out that it was neutered (no motionflow).

I, like many other dealers, have taken a lot of time to give proper demonstrations to people. However, I can tell you that many of those who came in for the demo were just people trying to see the equipment first hand before they purchased it from the net.

This is true for many stocking retailers. However, rather than viewing this as a negative I would suggest that anything that increases traffic in your store is a good thing. Every person walking in is a potential customer (current or future) your job is to convince them that your goods, services and knowledge are worth their weight in gold. You're probably only going to convince a small fraction right there on the showroom floor, but you will have planted the seed to grow future customers. The most successful specialty electronics store around here has been in business for 46 years. They treat every kid who buys electronics on the internet as a potential future customer. I experienced this store philosophy first hand 40 years ago as a kid who bought a Dynaco vacuum tube amplifier kit via mail order. When my kit amplifier didn't work they didn't say "tough luck kid you didn't buy it here" They told me to bring it in to see if their electronics tech could figure out what was wrong with it. He fixed it for free. I never forgot that and as an adult I bought several systems from them over the years.

I wouldn't attribute the slow VW70 sales to the price fixing as much as the lack of improvement/higher price compared to the VW50. I sold a ton of VW50's last year but have not sold one VW70 and probably won't.

Edit: I was speaking of VW60's not the 50's

Well, to this buyer, ANY company that engages in MAP price "fixing" doesn't get my business.

PERIOD.

I don't care how "fantastic" their gear is. There are a lot of other companies that want to sell product competitively, and let the market decide the price at which it is sold at. ESPECIALLY in this economy!!

Sony's high end gear is off my list for this reason and this reason alone. And, I'm a current owner of a (very outdated) VPL-VW10HT, so I know Sony makes great gear. I just freaking H-A-T-E the policy, and the associated arrogance of the company making it.

You know, these retailers blame the internet and low ball pricing for their troubles. I swear, most of them need to look them selves squarely in the face here.

Most people I know, site lack of knowledge and expertise at the retailers as their reasoning for buiying online. Not price. These would be most non enthusiast types I am talking about here.

I forgot about WSR, have not received an issue for a while. Are they online-only now?


WSR still publishes hard copies - I just received mine yesterday (January/February 2009). However, it's getting thinner every issue... must be losing advertising revenue... :(

I would certainly buy from a local store, but around me, nothing is stocked and the help is poor. If you have a problem, they will ship it out and charge you above the shipping charges. Around me the dealers are less knowledgeable and in many cases wrong. Forums like this provide the correct information. I wish I had some of the stores around me that I hear of on this forum. You bet I would buy from them.

WSR still publishes hard copies - I just received mine yesterday (January/February 2009). However, it's getting thinner every issue... must be losing advertising revenue... :(

Yes, I received mine yesterday as well. I was actually serious, and not trying to be funny with my question. I have received notice from a couple of magazines that I have subscriptions to that they have decided to go onliine only - forgot which ones they were.

... However, I can tell you that many of those who came in for the demo were just people trying to see the equipment first hand before they purchased it from the net. The funny thing is that the people that require the most time to evaluate a projector and ask the most questions are generally the people that purchase them from the internet.That is the crux of the issue that some here want to ignore. How many "reviews" have we read on this forum in the last year where members went into a B&M, spent hours evaluating a pj, raved about the excellent service then bought the unit online :eek:

Sony, Mitsubishi, and others who have gone to a MAP model are doing so based on intense pressure from their dealers.

There was a local HT retailer that used to have a good selection of mid range pjs (Yamaha, Sharp, Marantz, Sony, SIM) on display. The only brand they now display is Runco!

Funny I read this just after a visit to a local shop here in New England. I stopped by because I was curious how the state of the economy was treating them. I couldn't believe it! They are booming! The fall of Circuit City and Tweeter has increased sales. They have plenty of Home Theater installs happening and are backlogged. There was a guy in there listening to $30k+ speakers ready to write a check. They are doing very well. Funny one extreme to another.

Ron

My biggest problem with B&Ms around here is selection. I'd prefer to buy from a small HT shop if possible, I've bought all my audio gear locally, and my Pioneer 51FD at one of my favorite local dealers (and for quite a bit more than I could have bought it for online).

But I've never bought a projector locally, and the primary reason is selection. Nobody around here caries anything but crap LCDs and super high-end stuff like Runco. Well I want something better than an entry level LCD, and I don't want to pay for the install like you do with Runco and the other high-end stuff. It's changing slightly, I'm starting to see newer/better Mitsubishi LCDs floating around. But even then they're usually demod craptacularly. One dealer has a Pioneer Kuro projector (the RS2 clone), which should be a sight to behold, but when I went to check it out, I was totally apathetic about the demo. Definitely didn't make me want it.

The Sony dealer doesn't show the VW50/60/70, the Marantz dealer doesn't show the 11 or the 15, nobody caries InFocus, JVC, Epson, Optoma, BenQ.

Frankly I blame the stores themselves for their problems. I think if more stores followed the AV Science model, that is being authorized for almost everything, being willing/happy to get/show anything, and finally selling it for a great price, most of these shops would be doing great. I mean if AV Science can do it, why can't everyone else?

[QUOTE=darinp2;15844864]Maybe it has changed recently, but in the past I am pretty sure manufacturers could not forbid Costco from selling their items for whatever they wanted. They could try to find ways to keep Costco from getting their items, but couldn't just stop Costco from selling their items because they didn't want Costco selling them.......[QUOTE]


I believe that in the vast majority of cases, Costco is buying their electronics products directly from the manufacturer's US sales office/representative. You will notice that in many cases the manufacturer's model number is different from the identical, or nearly identical item, being sold by mainstream retailers such as Best Buy. The manufacturer frequently uses a different model number for products sold to the warehouse clubs so that the consumer cannot easily compare the price to the equivalent products being sold thru mainstream dealers. Also this prevents a consumer from getting a price match at the mainstream dealers. I don't believe that Costco should be considered a 'gray market' dealer as I doubt (at least for the vast majority of items they sell) they are importing the products directly from overseas and bypassing the manufacturers official US representative. At least for all electronics products I have purchased from them (includes 3 flat panel HDTVs, one Projection HDTV, and numerous smaller items) they came with the manufacturer's US warranty meaning it came though the manufacturer's official US distribution channel.

I believe that in the vast majority of cases, Costco is buying their electronics products directly from the manufacturer's US sales office/representative.I agree that this is the case the vast majority of the time (although things may not have been that way as much when Costco was younger and have probably moved more that direction with time). I was referring to cases where the manufacturers didn't want their stuff sold in Costco (or indicated that they didn't). I remember finding a pallet of Oakley sunglasses in a Costco in Oregon and a couple of days later they were all gone. I asked and was told that a person came in and bought all of them and that this person was an Oakley rep, but it could have been somebody else who bought the whole stack. I found the same sunglasses in a Costco in the Seattle area and didn't hesitate that time. Once those were gone I don't recall seeing any more of the Oakleys in Costco for years, although they may have gotten them or started carrying them since.

Costco now moves enough stuff that they are probably hard for many manufacturers to ignore.

--Darin

Costco still sells stuff through legitimate and greymarket channels. I had a client recently whose goods ended up in Costco, acted shocked and dismayed, but ultimately did nothing, not even a word to the distributor who sold to Costco.

A few months ago Costco had some Denon receivers at a pretty good price on its website. The listing said something like "this product may not be covered under the manufacturer's warrantly but Costco warrants it for 2 years and you can return it anytime."

Another little factoid about products at Costco. if you see a big * on the price tag that is an indication that the item is a one time offer. When the supply on the self is gone it is gone.

example:

http://lh3.google.com/videocam/R22TuSuQPnI/AAAAAAAAAzM/6WbSavDiRDI/Photo_122207_002.jpg?imgmax=512

Just looked and that package is now on sale on Amazon for 90% more.

Here's what I don't get about this complaint: The B&M shops cater to the "more money than brains" crowd. They clearly have no interest in serving those of us who are simply looking to buy a PJ or some other HT component. They have few to no PJs to audition, and when I ask them about a PJ they show me a two-year old model priced at its original MSRP.

My only other option for buying a PJ locally is to go into Best Buy and pick one up there, but they have no place to properly audition the PJ anyway.

I have no other choice but to buy online.

So why lament the loss of a customer you never had any interest in serving anyway?

The B&M shops cater to the "more money than brains" crowd.

I can only conclude we are getting more brains or less money...or both :)

As a publisher, Gary Reber is going through tough times with his magazine. Note how much it has slimmed down . There are fewer pages, fewer articles, and most disconcerting to Reber, fewer ads. He is wrong to lash out like he has in that editorial, but I just chalk it up to a man who is confused and probably very frightened by not only the state of the economy, but the financial state of his magazine.
These are tough times.

I used to buy magazines like this a long time ago but then it dawned on me that i could get better information about products and better reviews online at sites like AVS. I found the reviews in magazines to be lacking and often poor although i am not saying this is the case with WSR but it was my experience of a lot of magazines.

Regarding online prices.....If an online store can sell me a product cheaper than a local store AND offer good customer service then why would i shop local and pay too high a price. If i was extremely rich i wouldn't care about the prices but since i am not then it makes no sense to pay more than i have to taking into account many online shops offer superior prices and customer service these days. Sure it's good to see or hear a product before you buy but like many i would do my research before i buy so that's not always necessary in the internet age.

The other thing is like many i get my shopping delivered from online. There is the convienence of it all to take into account. I like that as do many.

The local store has to go the extra mile to get the sale and try and compete on prices otherwise it will lose out.

Another example in the UK is that Marantz products cannot be sold mail order. The company forbids it and will only allow those shops which adhere to it's policy to sell it's products thus no matter where you look the price tends to be the same on their products. I call that price fixing but apparently it's not and is legal in the UK although price fixing in the UK is forbidden.

I stopped trusting magazine reviews a long time ago when i used to get What HiFi in the UK and certain companies products got five stars all the time and funnily enough the product was advertised in the magazine and for one example every time a new subwoofer came out from a certain manufacturer it got five star rave reviews from the reviewer. I'm talking REL subwoofers here and i actually bought one based on a review in What HiFi - It was a good subwoofer for movies and VHS but for the new DVD age and lower frequencies it just couldn't do much under 30hz so i sold it and bought an SVS based on information i got from reading this forum and i couldn't be happier with my subwoofer now.

I mention this because it happened with other products reviewed by that magazine and i know it still happens.

I frankly do not trust magazine reviews anymore and indeed don't trust reviews much anymore full stop and prefer forums like this where you find out a products weaknesses as well as the products good points.

I actually found the same thing happening with DVD reviews in magazines....I just stopped trusting them and the same thing for Blu Ray....Too many get it wrong in my opinion so i avoid such reviews now.

So i shall shed no tears if magazines go under but i do understand it will be hard on the people working for them.

This has been a fascinating thread to read. For the last 30 years I have bought equipment from high end to low end and online as well. I usually have found the high end to be arrogant and not always helpful. I have usually found the low end and local HT stores to be poorly educated about their own products and the internet to be a good bet when you know what you want. I believe there will be continued consolidation in the market resulting in fewer choices of products. There will always be some with means who want someone else to just take care of it, there will always be dedicated DIY people and then there will be mass marketed HTIB products that will sell to the bulk of america. Recently I leased another car. The dealers were all dying but at the same time not pricing correctly. I went to the dealership where I had done several deals over the years. Was very honest about what I wanted and what I was willing to pay. All they kept saying was "not possible" I took delivery from another local dealer of the exact same car made in the exact same plant in germany financed by the exact same lease company at a much better price because that dealer was willing to move th e product without marking up the financing. The knowledge for this came from internet and a local broker service. I finally did get a local dealer to match the brokers price without the 595 fee but went with the broker anyway out of loyalty to his process. The manufacturer made money, the dealer made money the broker made money and I saved money. The world is a crazy place and we all need to modify long held views or risk irrelevance.

I believe one issue that I personally found with the B&M dealers locally is the premium pricing wasn't routinely equated with a higher knowledge base or even an increased level of attention to desires, needs or concerns of mine. I'm one who is happy to pay for TLC and being able to let go of details. In my case I felt used rather than cared for. I even at one point had a heart to heart explaining that, in private, to the owner of one of the boutique dealers. He had nothing to say. Pretty much that was the end since they had no longer anything to offer me, although I'm a person who tends to be loyal to those businesses that treat me well.

If this sort of experience is widespread I can see why that model would fail.

Art

I used to buy magazines like this a long time ago but then it dawned on me that i could get better information about products and better reviews online at sites like AVS. I found the reviews in magazines to be lacking and often poor although i am not saying this is the case with WSR but it was my experience of a lot of magazines.

Regarding online prices.....If an online store can sell me a product cheaper than a local store AND offer good customer service then why would i shop local and pay too high a price. If i was extremely rich i wouldn't care about the prices but since i am not then it makes no sense to pay more than i have to taking into account many online shops offer superior prices and customer service these days. Sure it's good to see or hear a product before you buy but like many i would do my research before i buy so that's not always necessary in the internet age.

The other thing is like many i get my shopping delivered from online. There is the convienence of it all to take into account. I like that as do many.

The local store has to go the extra mile to get the sale and try and compete on prices otherwise it will lose out.

Another example in the UK is that Marantz products cannot be sold mail order. The company forbids it and will only allow those shops which adhere to it's policy to sell it's products thus no matter where you look the price tends to be the same on their products. I call that price fixing but apparently it's not and is legal in the UK although price fixing in the UK is forbidden.

I stopped trusting magazine reviews a long time ago when i used to get What HiFi in the UK and certain companies products got five stars all the time and funnily enough the product was advertised in the magazine and for one example every time a new subwoofer came out from a certain manufacturer it got five star rave reviews from the reviewer. I'm talking REL subwoofers here and i actually bought one based on a review in What HiFi - It was a good subwoofer for movies and VHS but for the new DVD age and lower frequencies it just couldn't do much under 30hz so i sold it and bought an SVS based on information i got from reading this forum and i couldn't be happier with my subwoofer now.

I mention this because it happened with other products reviewed by that magazine and i know it still happens.

I frankly do not trust magazine reviews anymore and indeed don't trust reviews much anymore full stop and prefer forums like this where you find out a products weaknesses as well as the products good points.

I actually found the same thing happening with DVD reviews in magazines....I just stopped trusting them and the same thing for Blu Ray....Too many get it wrong in my opinion so i avoid such reviews now.

So i shall shed no tears if magazines go under but i do understand it will be hard on the people working for them.
Personally I think that WSR is a notable exception to the (print or online) magazine rule of review rating being "generally" proportional to advertising revenue from a given manufacturer.

WSR front projector reviews have always been very insightful, backed up by comprehensive technical measurements. Unfortunately, that's an exception rather than the rule these days, especially in High End Audio magazines like Absolute Sound, Stereophile, Soundtstage, Stereotimes, PositiveFeedback, 6moons, etc etc

Everyone is responsible for the viability of their own business model. Exactly. The WSR editorial and those with that opinion have just failed to acknowledge how the world has changed and adapt their business model. This is perpetuated by some manufacturers and distributors who will not "deal" with dealers/integrators who have shifted their business model to maintain relevance (no B&M, no deal). IMO several factors will affect the success of businesses who provide in a/v electronics. Professional service is paramount. It can't just be about products. It has to be about what the provider has to offer above and beyond the product. This has to be closely linked with knowledge base/experience and work ethic; the dedication to doing it right. As always, it all has to fit the client's custom factors of lifestyle, expectations, and budget. And they must understand that volume sales may not be possible or even desirable, and adjust the business model and their niche in the industry/market to accommodate that reality.

The emerging a/v provider must find a niche and rely on/earn/expect word of mouth reputation, and have an organizational structure that responds flexibly to the industry changes. In other words, be able to downsize/morph quickly with the industry changes, but still have a strong enough presence to not fall off the edge of the earth when things change. Unfortunately, B&Ms are not able to do that easily because their overhead demands volume. I think that there will be providers who emerge as very small businesses who cater to the traditional, but also the informed DIY clients. If you don't have that huge overhead sitting on your shoulders, you can be flexible as a provider. Many DIYers here are highly knowledgeable and need little help. Other DIYers know just enough to have fun making a mess (where we all began :D).

I think that eventually there will be highly qualified, reputable local providers that adapt to this reality. Finding those who fit all the criteria I mention here may not be easy. Finding them may take some research such as word of mouth and contact with industry insiders such as THX, ISF, etc. Having attended the THX training about eight years ago, I can tell you that a fair percentage of the class was there to fill a square, not learn much. Providers have reputations within these organizations, and it is worthwhile to check up on them. Certifications with organizations like THX are assigned to the person, not the business by whom they may be employed at the time. Find a dedicated professional who has a good rep with customers and top industry entities, who has a flexible business model, and you have found a good resource to help with your project.

My two bits worth...:)

Personally I think that WSR is a notable exception to the (print or online) magazine rule of review rating being "generally" proportional to advertising revenue from a given manufacturer.

WSR front projector reviews have always been very insightful, backed up by comprehensive technical measurements. Unfortunately, that's an exception rather than the rule these days, especially in High End Audio magazines like Absolute Sound, Stereophile, Soundtstage, Stereotimes, PositiveFeedback, 6moons, etc etc

Yah i'm not sure we get that magazine in the UK which is why i said i'm not sure it's the case with WSR - I was aiming my views more at magazines like What HiFi and it's offshoots.

I have yet to walk into a B&M where they have a clue how to sell to a HT enthusiast.

First you never should start with can I help you? That too often can be answered with the age old, "Just looking" and then what do you do?

Instead you should make an appropriate comment about what ever I happened to be looking at and then say "tell me about your current set-up" after listening closely and making sure you make appropriate comments about the gear you ask the most appropriate question which is "what do you think you will be upgrading next? Based on that response and if you have something to offer, make your pitch and convince me that I should patronize your shop. If something is coming in soon that I might be interested in get my Name and E-mail and follow up with an invite when it comes in.

Whatever you do, avoid saying I've never heard of Oppo, Outlaw, Emotiva etc. If you are in the business you should know the competition.

I once walked into a store and some younger obviously new employee walked up to me and asked the question "Can i help you" - Now i didn't have a watch on so i said "Have you got the time on you" and i was given the time and replied thank you and then i walked out the shop. All his workmates could be heard laughing in the background.

Reason i walked out was i hate walking into a shop and being pounced on instantly. If i need help i'll ask for it. Pounce on me and you don't get a sale.

That is the crux of the issue that some here want to ignore. How many "reviews" have we read on this forum in the last year where members went into a B&M, spent hours evaluating a pj, raved about the excellent service then bought the unit online :eek:

Sony, Mitsubishi, and others who have gone to a MAP model are doing so based on intense pressure from their dealers.

There was a local HT retailer that used to have a good selection of mid range pjs (Yamaha, Sharp, Marantz, Sony, SIM) on display. The only brand they now display is Runco!


I see your point here but most retail stores are set up to be very hands on. Ever been to a Barnes and Noble Superstore where they have plenty of couches and comfy seating so you can sit and read books that you have not paid for? Even in places like Best Buy, you can fiddle with the TVs and other stuff all you want.

I buy plenty of stuff in local retail stores even though I can get it all much cheaper over the net.

I think that BIGmouthinDC is right that many of these HT shops don't know how to sell to enthusiasts. It is not just about money.

I am personally involved in such a case right now. I hired an immigration lawyer to handle the immigration of my wife and her 2 boys from the Philippines to here. The attorney charged me a $3500 flat fee and began the proceedings. By doing my own research on the net, I soon discovered just how poorly and inefficiently the attorney was handling things and I have since taken over my own case. The attorney (who specializes in immigration law) was neither knowledgeable nor did he feel the urgency to proceed as fast as I wanted things to move.

I only wish I had known then what I know now...I would have saved myself $3500 and handled the immigration (USCIS and Visa processing) myself, and I would have shaved at least a couple of months off of this very lengthy ordeal. Since I have taken over, my wife now has her green card and her 2 boys will be flying here (with green cards) on the 10th of April. If I had followed the course the attorney was taking, my wife would still be waiting for her temporary work permit...:rolleyes:

I suppose I should be criticized for taking food off of the table for the poor attorney, right?

You should contact the attorney and demand a partial refund of your retainer.
In Ohio, the Bar Association is very serious about complaints against attorneys and most attorneys hate Bar Association investigations. An attorney is required to represent a client zealously and he must return any part of a retainer that is not earned.

If he is not cooperative, determine who investigates attorney complaints and pursue it. There is no excuse for incompetent representation.

Congratulations on your pursuing this to a successful end.

Pounce on me and you don't get a sale.


Yea, it's kind of like being asked by the ugliest girl in the place if you want a table dance and you haven't got your first drink yet.

I believe one issue that I personally found with the B&M dealers locally is the premium pricing wasn't routinely equated with a higher knowledge base or even an increased level of attention to desires, needs or concerns of mine. I'm one who is happy to pay for TLC and being able to let go of details. In my case I felt used rather than cared for. I even at one point had a heart to heart explaining that, in private, to the owner of one of the boutique dealers. He had nothing to say. Pretty much that was the end since they had no longer anything to offer me, although I'm a person who tends to be loyal to those businesses that treat me well.

If this sort of experience is widespread I can see why that model would fail.

Art

I have almost the same experience. I'm happy to pay more locally for reasonable knowledge and service, but it is not available where I am. My local store used to be good, and I bought a lot from them. Now they have poor selection, high prices, and know much less than I do. Their prices are much worse than other authorized retail shop dealers of the same products. I like good audio equipment and don't like any noise from amplifiers or source players. The old owner was proud of the fact that 25 years ago their Linn turntables had very low noise. He was in the store when I visited recently and I told one of the new owners how much I disliked the fan noise from the blu ray players. He said he was sure they had no fan and went to look. He came back and expressed his surprise to discover that they did! The old guy just rolled his eyes. He would never have sold a turntable that made that much noise. He would have known much more about the products. He would have sat with you in a quiet room where you auditioned something and would discuss any differences that were detectable, whatever the price difference in the equipment. The store is so noisy now that it is impossible to tell the difference between any equipment except how they perform at extremely loud volume. What do these guys offer any more? I get everything I want now from good established retail stores that offer a good internet site for ordering and do all my research here at AVS.

Yea, it's kind of like being asked by the ugliest girl in the place if you want a table dance and you haven't got your first drink yet.

Yea but what did her butt look like ?

Art

I believe one issue that I personally found with the B&M dealers locally is the premium pricing wasn't routinely equated with a higher knowledge base or even an increased level of attention to desires, needs or concerns of mine.

This is possibly the biggest reason why the A/V B&M's are failing. The "sales shops" have no idea how to sell anymore (or did they ever? I'm probably too young to know).

I recently dealt with one of the few (if not only) local B & M A/V dealers within a half hour of me. He has mostly gone high end install, but he was willing to talk to me. I was dealing directly with the owner, and while he might have been able to sell snow to an eskimo, he sure as heck wouldn't ever be able to sell me A/V gear.. because he didn't care what I wanted, he only cared what he wanted to sell me. I was way too informed to fall for his bullpoop, on top of the fact that he didn't listen to me to begin with.

I see it all the time, and it makes me sick. So called sales people who have zero training in proper sales technique. I refuse to buy from them myself. Learn how to do your job if you want to be rewarded.

Also, if their business model has nothing to add that cannot be easily found on the internet, they will fail. If I have to "buy blind" and wait just as long for the item to be shipped to me from them, they will fail. The possibility is there for them, but most of them don't utilize it. The few that embrace the internet revolution properly will survive, the rest won't.

I recently dealt with one of the few (if not only) local B & M A/V dealers within a half hour of me. He has mostly gone high end install, but he was willing to talk to me... because he didn't care what I wanted, he only cared what he wanted to sell me. I was way too informed to fall for his bullpoop, on top of the fact that he didn't listen to me to begin with. It is surprising that he has found any success with "high end" install with that approach. In my experience this is because it is an industry too driven by retail sales rather than an end result. It is too much about "boxes" rather than what is done with them. You must have the latest and greatest boxes; the more the better. They are the answer to all your problems. Now let me see, what do I have still in inventory in the back I need to get rid of?

Good luck finding anyone who has been to CEDIA business training, much less utilizes it. If they invest in that, they will learn that as potential provider for the prospective customer they must learn three things: Lifestyle (What type of room? How will they use it? Casual or formal? Intimate or entertaining friends? etc); Expectations (How do they want it to perform? What are their references for that? etc); and Budget (Everybody has one). Providers should be asking and listening a lot to learn these. It is their job then to take those parameters and design a system or proposal that fits them. Otherwise, they are just shoving boxes at people and setting themselves up for customer dissatisfaction. I don't understand why they do this to themselves. If the a/v provider's work meets the customer's three custom factors, then the customer will be happy...because it has been "designed" to be that way from the beginning.

You mean you guys aren't finding those guys out there? :D

If an a/v provider isn't asking a lot of questions and listening a lot more, then its time to find another provider...IMHO. :)

I hate to see the B+M store go, but with what I have seen most will. I have had so many bad experiences with the stores in my area it is amazing they are still in business. I went in one store here and the salesperson walked up looked at my shoes scoffed and turned around without so much as speaking to me. The store was empty and my wife and I were the only people there. It should be noted that in the months after that I spent over 50grand on audio equipment. Could have at least spoken to me. One custom installer took money from me to make plans for my actual room. He came to the house and took measurements and I gave him an idea what I wanted. He left and never returned any of my calls or money. Amazing! I talked to a custom installer across the state line about 2 hours away. I got an estimate for a projector and install. Not only was his MSRP twice what was listed on the companies own website, he wanted 10% stocking fee to order it, $1000.00 delivery(reasonable i suppose given the distance), $2000.00 instalation fee and another $1500.00 for calibration. Would have made an RS2 cost almost as much as a three chip DLP. I bought the projector from avs for a fraction of his estimate and eventually installed it myself. Would have much rathered have someone else do it but that was not worth over $15,000.00 especially on a 7500.00 projector. I called an authorized Integra dealer an hour away to inquire about the then new 9.8 processor. They took my name and number and never returned the call. I ended up getting the Onkyo clone off the internet but would have rather bought locally. I went to another store two hours away to look at projectors and was amazed that they had a panasonic 1000 on display for 7000.00 when Msrp was half that. As well they had an optima porjector displayed and when I asked which one the salesman would only say it was the "best." I was there to buy a projector and have someone else install it but not knowing what they were selling was a big turnoff for me. They are now out of business. I live in a remote location and have driven to virtually every store within 5 hours drive and only two of the experiences were positive. Helpful and Knowledgeable unfortunately they are both a hard 5 hours away and have enough business that they are not interested in travelling this far to do an install. thus I have been forced to become a DIY home theater man.

I once walked into a store and some younger obviously new employee walked up to me and asked the question "Can i help you" - Now i didn't have a watch on so i said "Have you got the time on you" and i was given the time and replied thank you and then i walked out the shop. All his workmates could be heard laughing in the background.

Reason i walked out was i hate walking into a shop and being pounced on instantly. If i need help i'll ask for it. Pounce on me and you don't get a sale.

Okay, I agree with you if you are talking about retailers. Custom B&M stores are way different. Many, like mine, are primarily based on appointments but do take the occasional walk-in traffic. Do you really think a business owner in a high end custom shop is going to tell his staff to ignore a customer that walks into his shop? Plus there isn't really a lot for anyone to see at our store unless you are being helped. We have no retail price tags on our floor and none of the displays are turned on unless we have an appointment coming in.

This isn't a great time for home theater reno, it seems to me. I'm doing mine and service is getting harder to come by. I want to use a fabric wall covering and one of the few places that offer it in my city now has so little staff it's one person doing all of Canada. You have to make a booking many weeks (almost a month) in advance simply to see some samples! (How they plan to stay in business with such a model I don't know).

I gave up on them and contacted the other company that offers such a product. They have just closed their show room. I can't see any samples. This is ridiculous; they're dropping like flies.

This is a very interesting thread. Let me add my story.

Three years ago my wife and I refinanced our house and took some money out for some home improvement projects; one of which was a home theater. I went to the local HT store and talked to a salesman. (I had been there months before and had talked to a different salesman. He had since left the company. I had the earlier quote in mind, but wanted a fresh start. Years ago my mom had purchased a couple of Laserdisc players from them, as well as several discs.)

The new salesman gave me product sheets on about a dozen projectors, ranging from a $20,000 Runco down to a $2,000 EDTV Sharp. All of which were quoted at full MSRP, as was all the other equipment in the quote. I did some checking online to find this out.
The amount quoted for the equipment was more than we had budgeted for. I was also a little hesitant with the salesman, because I hate leading sales folk on when I’m not convinced I’ll buy. (That is, when I initiate the discussion. I don’t feel guilty when somebody rappels down from the ceiling and asks if I need help.)

The quote didn’t include installation, just hardware. I wouldn’t mind (so much) paying full retail if I got a lot of added value (“We’ll calibrate it for you.”)
My little voice told me this wasn’t a good deal for me so I backed off. I ended up getting most of my equipment elsewhere; mostly from other B&M stores. None through Internet-only places.

I was on the HT store’s mailing list and I got a flyer about a clearance sale. I ended up buying a Runco CL-700 demo unit for 40% of list. That was about three years ago, and I just replaced it (with an open-box Sharp 20000 purchased online.)

I discovered this forum (and others) I did a lot of research on things HT, kind of after-the-fact. I have very little buyer’s remorse, but now realize how little help I actually got from the store. I was never told that there are different types of projectors (LCD, DLP, LCOS, etc.) and that each has a different look, and that I may find one more appealing than others. I was not told about the different resolutions projectors have (480, 720, 1080). I was not told about connection options (I may want DVI with HDCP, and why.)

Overall, the shop seems to me to be one that expects its customers to give them their house keys and a blank check, and they’ll build them a theater. I am not that kind of customer, but I would have paid for a little more expertise.
In retrospect, I should have looked up other HT stores in my area and visited them. Unfortunately my timetable didn’t allow that. (I basically had a contractor in my basement with a sawsall asking “what next?”

So as far as this thread is concerned, I feel I tried to support the local B&M (I did get my first projector from them) but they didn’t go out of their way to accommodate me. Now that I am much more well-versed on things HT it will be harder for me to give my hard-earned cash to someone who doesn’t earn it.

Enjoying this thread. Most B & M will deal if they feel you are really ready to purchase. After a few visits you develop a repor.

Many years ago when I was just out of college and very poor, I spent a lot of time at a local high end audio store. I made friends with the owner and told him I could only afford to buy one item at a time. I bought a pair of very high end towers and it was almost 9 months before I had the rest of the gear.

One day he called me and said he had recieved some recording studio gear and told me to come down. He let me take home what I wanted, no deposit, no paperwork, just bring it back when I was done.

Needless to say I bought several amps and pre-amps with model numbers I never heard of. I found out the reason was that most of them were limited production less than 2000 units.

I supported his store and sent many customers to him until he sold the store.

I forgot about WSR, have not received an issue for a while. Are they online-only now?
not yet, but i doubt it'll be much longer 'til they are.

when my current scrip expires this coming dec., that's it. no renewal. all the info is available on-line.

After a few visits you develop a repor.

If you're referring to my story, my mom and I bought Laserdiscs and players from this store, so yes, I'd say I've been there a few times.

That's why the full retail thing surprised me. A customer for over 20 years and no price break.

I hate products that are sold by monopolistic installers. For example I was looking for remote dimer wall switches for my HT floor lamps. Control4 sells only to installers who then will charge an arm and a leg for plugging the switches to the wall and programing their remote. Instead it took me 5 minutes to program 4 $35 zwave switches from my local Fry's store to my logitech 890 remote using the instructions page.

I like Gary Reber and his magazine - it is one of the few high end magazines left for us enthusiasts now that Perfect Vision has gone away. This was a well written article and much of it accurate. However, I disagree vehemently with one supposition -- that the internet, forums, etc. have reduced quality etc. I feel that this forum has done more for bringing quality to the masses -- just to name a few things that this forum has brought to me personally: Projection TV (who can say that quality has gone down over time - well maybe a few crt folks). However, in the old world -- quality projection TV was relegated to those who could pay 50k for a CRT - who wants to go back there. Other things: HDNET, Vudu, BluRay, Video Scalers, Anamorphic Lens. I could go on - but I would argue that these forums have done more to bringing quality to the masses than any other medium. Sort of a democratization of quality in technology. It is no longer relegated to the elite who have money. While I still will subscrive to widescreen review because it is still a great value for what they do -- I would not want to harken back to the days before AVS Forum existed.

I agree. The accumlated knowledge base here is incredible. This has allowed us to find out what is real quality ,what makes sense and what is BS much much better than the boutique dealer only model where what they are selling is the best there is.

No doubt there are down sides to the loss of that end of it but personally I feel we are way ahead now.

As far as WSR I agree it is still one of the best but the printed version certainly is way way too slow to be of much use to me any more. Reviews are smaller and fewer, interviews in depth are less common and I'm not so sure that a lot of their best articles are simply in the past.

Art

not yet, but i doubt it'll be much longer 'til they are.

when my current scrip expires this coming dec., that's it. no renewal. all the info is available on-line.
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No Terry Paullin column, 'One Installers Opinion', for the Jan/Feb issue?:eek:

Not a good sign.:confused:

I like Gary Reber and his magazine - it is one of the few high end magazines left for us enthusiasts now that Perfect Vision has gone away. This was a well written article and much of it accurate. However, I disagree vehemently with one supposition -- that the internet, forums, etc. have reduced quality etc. I feel that this forum has done more for bringing quality to the masses -- just to name a few things that this forum has brought to me personally: Projection TV (who can say that quality has gone down over time - well maybe a few crt folks). However, in the old world -- quality projection TV was relegated to those who could pay 50k for a CRT - who wants to go back there. Other things: HDNET, Vudu, BluRay, Video Scalers, Anamorphic Lens. I could go on - but I would argue that these forums have done more to bringing quality to the masses than any other medium. Sort of a democratization of quality in technology. It is no longer relegated to the elite who have money. While I still will subscrive to widescreen review because it is still a great value for what they do -- I would not want to harken back to the days before AVS Forum existed.


I agree with this completely. I am sure that AVS has grown the market for high end goods more than any other single thing. I like your characterization of this as a "democratization of quality in technology" and I think that is exactly what it is.

If it were not for AVS I am sure that I would not have this hobby and thus would not have spent the tens of thousands of dollars on it that I have so far.

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No Terry Paullin column, 'One Installers Opinion', for the Jan/Feb issue?:eek:

Not a good sign.:confused:

Not only that but ". . . where have you gone [Greg Rogers]? A [forum] turns its lonely eyes to you (Woo woo Woo)."

I agree with this completely. I am sure that AVS has grown the market for high end goods more than any other single thing. I like your characterization of this as a "democratization of quality in technology" and I think that is exactly what it is.

If it were not for AVS I am sure that I would not have this hobby and thus would not have spent the tens of thousands of dollars on it that I have so far.


Ditto, here. When my Sony 41" RPTV died several years ago I almost bought another RPTV, probably a 50" or so. But after I discovered AVS and began learning about projectors I got hooked and eventually bought a Mitsubishi HC3000 and a 92" screen. Since then I've sworn never to buy another dinky TV.

I've been hesitant to jump in here, because I've never subscribed to WSR (they just didn't cover the kind of equipment I was interested in). My experiences are similar to Rick46's. I got to know the people at the Century Stereo store back in the mid-'60s (shortly after they opened shop as a mid-level audio store). I got to be very good friends with one of the salesmen there, and he got me some very
good deals, including a CRT PJ in the late-'70s. They have since moved into a fancy new store and graduated to be a high-end store, almost exclusively (although they do carry mid-level audio gear) - I did purchase a $1200 Pioneer.Elite AVR from them last year.

However, since I've joined AVS, I have gotten a lot more current and useful information (after I filter out the irrelevant posts) here than I can get from any magazine. I do subscribe to Home Theater Magazine, but even a lot of their articles are not applicable to my interests. The saving feature of HTM are the reviews by Kris Deering and articles by Joshua Zyber.

I purchase on-line products, when possible, because of price and availability. I do purchase some stuff from RS, BB, & CC, but only when their price is not out of line, or "I need it now". I do not pay any attention to the nonsense that the salesmen tell me. Being a retired electrical engineer makes doing my own research a SOP effort for me.

I was incredulous when I read Gary Reber's editorial in the latest issue of WSR. Quite frankly, he's been whining about the economy, his lack of advertising revenue, and the hard times he's going through in his opening editorial for several issues now. He's also been warning that content was going to decrease and issue frequency might drop from monthly to bi-monthly. I was already starting to get a little sick of his complaining (on some level it seems unprofessional to put your heart on your sleeve in every issue), but now this latest article was printed. For him to lash out and blame EVERYONE...the internet, the manufacturers, the enthusiast forums, the custom installers...for his current woes and the woes of the A/V industry is ludicrous. The fact is that times are changing and the old B&M model just isn't going to cut it any longer. His editorial praddles on as if written by a bitter old man who's upset that the world is passing him by. Certainly he must realize that those who read his magazine are enthusiasts and, as such, seek out as much information as they can from sources other than just his magazine. More likely than not, those enthusiasts read or actively participate in the online A/V forums. It just seems stupid to me that he likely insulted and alienated a good portion of his subscribership when he blamed the forums for his woes.

There are so many holes that can be shot in that editorial it's just crazy. I'll tell you one thing, though: the way to retain subscribers in this economy is not to blame your problems on everyone else and then reduce content and publishing frequency while keeping prices high.

In an odd coincidence, I just received my WSR subscription renewal notification on Saturday and saw that WSR wants $25 for a one-year subscription! Give WSR's obvious attitude toward enthusiasts like us -- who like to share knowledge openly rather than keep it close-to-the-vest in an elitist, snobbish community -- and the fact that issue content is waning dramatically, is typically outdated (this past issue has a review of the Denon 5308 as if it was the newest thing on the block), and is of questionable value considering that it's readily available elsewhere, I think I'll vote with my wallet and keep WSR's $25 in my pocket.

I was incredulous when I read Gary Reber's editorial in the latest issue of WSR. Quite frankly, he's been whining about the economy, his lack of advertising revenue, and the hard times he's going through in his opening editorial for several issues now. He's also been warning that content was going to decrease and issue frequency might drop from monthly to bi-monthly. I was already starting to get a little sick of his complaining (on some level it seems unprofessional to put your heart on your sleeve in every issue), but now this latest article was printed. For him to lash out and blame EVERYONE...the internet, the manufacturers, the enthusiast forums, the custom installers...for his current woes and the woes of the A/V industry is ludicrous. The fact is that times are changing and the old B&M model just isn't going to cut it any longer. His editorial praddles on as if written by a bitter old man who's upset that the world is passing him by. Certainly he must realize that those who read his magazine are enthusiasts and, as such, seek out as much information as they can from sources other than just his magazine. More likely than not, those enthusiasts read or actively participate in the online A/V forums. It just seems stupid to me that he likely insulted and alienated a good portion of his subscribership when he blamed the forums for his woes.

There are so many holes that can be shot in that editorial it's just crazy. I'll tell you one thing, though: the way to retain subscribers in this economy is not to blame your problems on everyone else and then reduce content and publishing frequency while keeping prices high.

In an odd coincidence, I just received my WSR subscription renewal notification on Saturday and saw that WSR wants $25 for a one-year subscription! Give WSR's obvious attitude toward enthusiasts like us -- who like to share knowledge openly rather than keep it close-to-the-vest in an elitist, snobbish community -- and the fact that issue content is waning dramatically, is typically outdated (this past issue has a review of the Denon 5308 as if it was the newest thing on the block), and is of questionable value considering that it's readily available elsewhere, I think I'll vote with my wallet and keep WSR's $25 in my pocket.This is neither a fair nor accurate characterization of Gary Reber's editorial. No where does he "blame the forums for his woes." Nor does he begrudge people seeking information "from sources other than just his magazine." He blames WSR's current problems on the state of economy, which has led his advertisers to severely cut back on their support. WSR isn't exactly alone in this situation.

The editorial does spend an enormous amount of space expressing disappointment about the industry trend towards direct Internet sales and away from brick-and-mortar stores. I'm not sure I agree with him about this, and I really don't understand how this affects an enthusiastic magazine such as WSR (If ALL sales were Internet-based, the value of WSR and other magazines would be the same. Consumers would still need information and manufacturers would still need to advertise.) But regardless of one's attitude towards this debate, it is hard to see how you interpret his position as expressing a negative "attitude toward enthusiasts like us -- who like to share knowledge openly rather than keep it close-to-the-vest in an elitist, snobbish community." I have no idea what this means, but it sounds to me like an expression of your own strong feelings rather than a commentary on his.

This is neither a fair nor accurate characterization of Gary Reber's editorial. No where does he "blame the forums for his woes." Nor does he begrudge people seeking information "from sources other than just his magazine." He blames WSR's current problems on the state of economy, which has led his advertisers to severely cut back on their support. WSR isn't exactly alone in this situation.

Tom. He does, in fact, specifically identify internet enthusiast forums as part of the problem he identifies (not perhaps his problem as a publisher though) reasoning that after an individual has his product questions answered on an internet foum, the "next logical step" is to seek the lowest price on the internet.

I have read this editorial several times trying to make sense of it and I am sorry to say that there is no coherent thread that ties it all together except that "everything is bad" and it used to be much better when people used to come into shops, listen to experienced salesmen, and buy their goods there.

I think that times are tough all over right now. I saw an ad in yesterday's paper advertising a sale on some furniture that my wife and I had looked ata few months ago but did not get around to buying. The ad did not mention the price, just that it was "25% off." I called the store yesterday, said I saw the ad, and asked how much the furniture cost with the discount. The salesman then went into attack mode saying that he would not tell me because I was obviously shopping around and that if he told me than no one would make any money. He mentioned something about the internet but I don't know what that had to do with my call because I saw his ad in a local paper and had no reason to mention the internet. Now, I am interested in buying this furniture and if the price was right I would have placed my order right there. Instead, I will never shop at that store.

I don't know what to make of any of this other than it used to be a lot easier for salesmen to make a living before people could really comparison shop.

WSR can survive and thrive, but it has to adjust to the way things are going. Personally, I will renew my subscription even if they only publish bi monthly for a while because I really like a lot of what WSR does (your articles included, Tom). Attacking your most vocal subscribers probably isn't a good business model though.

WSR and Consumer Reports are the only 2 magazine subscriptions that I have kept. I probably subscribed to about 10 before the internet (PC, Stereo, and news magazines).

In my recent frustration trying to work with a dealer on a new projector, I just decided to mail order one offered here on AVS. I could not find a dealer in Oklahoma City or Dallas with a setup to go and demo various projectors. Most dealers I contacted would only have 1 projector set up, or were in the process of getting another projector to set up having sold the floor model or other excuse.

How is the consumer going to be able to do anything but mail order if the local dealers are no help, cannot demo an item, but want full MSRP to order it for you? I do not need assistance to order something over the internet.

Perhaps the video business changes too fast. I was able to find dealers to audition speakers without issue, but speaker lines do not change out continuously and it is easier for them to keep the demos current. Yes they ordered the speakers for me and they arrived a week later, which was fine, I got advice, was able to compare various lines and demo the speakers.

WSR needs to see the writing on the wall and become a valuable tool for helping people decide what they like and will order on the internet.

This is neither a fair nor accurate characterization of Gary Reber's editorial. No where does he "blame the forums for his woes." Nor does he begrudge people seeking information "from sources other than just his magazine." He blames WSR's current problems on the state of economy, which has led his advertisers to severely cut back on their support. WSR isn't exactly alone in this situation.

The editorial does spend an enormous amount of space expressing disappointment about the industry trend towards direct Internet sales and away from brick-and-mortar stores. I'm not sure I agree with him about this, and I really don't understand how this affects an enthusiastic magazine such as WSR (If ALL sales were Internet-based, the value of WSR and other magazines would be the same. Consumers would still need information and manufacturers would still need to advertise.) But regardless of one's attitude towards this debate, it is hard to see how you interpret his position as expressing a negative "attitude toward enthusiasts like us -- who like to share knowledge openly rather than keep it close-to-the-vest in an elitist, snobbish community." I have no idea what this means, but it sounds to me like an expression of your own strong feelings rather than a commentary on his.
My comments that you seem to have trouble understanding relate to the fact that Mr. Reber specifically states that the magazine "deal[s] with 'higher-end' performance products." Mind you, this is in the same issue that reviewed both a $300 LG BD player and a 42" JVC LCD panel -- not exactly the "high end."

Anyway, the tone I detected in his editorial was that he'd prefer that the industry serve those who walk into a B&M store armed with nothing more that a fat wallet and blind trust in "knowledgable" salesmen. He seems to think that those who are employed in the A/V industry somehow possess a deeper understanding of the technical merits of A/V gear than mere enthusiasts could possibly glean on their own. I'll grant you that my "elitist, snobbish" characterization does stem from experiences I've had with some B&M stores, but the tone I detected in the editorial somewhat supports this stereotype IMO.

It's not too much of a stretch to infer that if Mr. Reber is taking shots at internet forums (here's a quote: "Another significant development that is negatively impacting specialty retailers are Internet enthusiast forums."), then he's indirectly poking forum members in the eye.

Anyway, as mentioned in Lawguy's post above mine, his editorial meaders and doesn't really have an overall theme other than to bemoan the current economy and to try to place particular blame for the specialty retailers' struggles on several contributing factors. The simple fact is that none of the things that he blames for the demise of the legacy B&M store are going away. To me, this means one thing to those retailers who find themselves struggling: evolve or die. This isn't something Mr. Reber seems particularly interested in fostering.

I do like their HDMI by Monster cable articles :D

the way things are going how is the poor mag. editor gonna pay for his portion of his yearly 'home theater cruise'?:eek::confused:

not to mention his other international a/v 'business' trips.

Those very ones who cry that we should 'take some personal responsibility' are those who cry that we should blindly trust them and turn over all our money so they can get rich.

If we are to convert to an adversarial society, rather than the cooperative one we've had for 60 years and which made America great, then adversariality works both ways. If B&M is to look out for its best interests and poke the customer for the max he can tolerate, then we as customers must defend ourselves, armed with the best information acquirable and find more direct ways to purchase.

Part of the collateral damage of The Internets, is publishing, news, authors, and other channel-based systems. No deep channels anymore; and no vetting, for better or worse.

We are all adversaries now, each fighting only for ourselves, and reversing thousands of years of development. It's the New World Order.

I hope that this falls within the fair use doctrine.

Since some of you are convinced that Gary Reber was attacking you personally because you participant in forums, here is what he actually wrote about forums in this very long (2500-word) editorial. He mentions forums four times.

**************

"There are thousands of blogger sites that claim “magazine” status and many end-user discussion or “mini-blogger” forums. . . .

Another significant development that is negatively impacting specialty retailers are Internet enthusiast forums. Enthusiasts visit forums to seek advice and recommendations from other end users on products. Forum discussions are back-and-forth encounters, often heated, on what specific product performs better than another, or what is the lesser cost relative to performance. Widescreen Review product reviews and articles are often a reference source for such discussion on Internet forums. It’s human nature to desire to pay the lowest price possible and once one has sorted through the pro-and-con discussions and recommendations, the next step is to search for the product on the Internet for the cheapest price. This scenario completely bypasses the specialty retailer, and the end user never personally experiences the product prior to purchase on the Internet. . . .

Because specialty retailers are increasingly dealing with enthusiasts, who have gathered opinions from magazines, Web sites, and Internet forums, and come into their stores to confirm for themselves the performance qualities and benefits of products they have read about, but who end up leaving the store to seek the lowest price elsewhere at a discount “warehouse” store or on the Internet. . . .

No amount of reading, whether in enthusiast magazines or on the Internet blogs, forums, and manufacturers’ sites can substitute for the in-person experience with the actual performance products."

****************

In the first mention of forums he simply observes the huge proliferation of such sites. In the second, he ties online discussions (including discussions about his own magazine) to "bypass[ing] the speciality retailer." In the third, he lumps forums in with his own magazine and again bemoans the fact that people "end up leaving the store to seek the lowest price elsewhere at a discount “warehouse” store or on the Internet." In the last passage he again lumps forums in with magazines and advises people to get real experience before buying.

As I said before, I don't think I agree with him. The Internet has fundamentally changed people's retail buying habits, and I think on balance for the better. But clearly his interest is not in criticizing people who frequent forums, any more than he is criticizing people who read his magazine. What he is concerned about is the effect Internet purchases have had on the economic viability of brick-and-mortar stores. He also wanted to explain how the economic crisis has affected WSR. That's it. WHY he is concerned about the viability of brick-and-mortar stores I don't know. If all of them disappeared tomorrow, manufacturers would still need to advertise and enthusiasts would still want to read magazines such as WSR.

Apart from the fact that I don't agree with his judgments about the need to maintain brick-and-mortar stores, I also don't understand the logic of connecting their struggle to survive with enthusiasts seeking and sharing information. It strikes me as apples and oranges. I have purchased several items at brick-and-mortar stores after getting information about them first here or in WSR. WHERE you buy something and HOW you get information about it are not closely linked. Of course, AVS in particular is an interesting institution in that in addition to hosting a forum they also sell products.

Now had he argued that people ought to stop participating in online forums and instead only read magazines such as his you might have something to complain about. But he didn't argue that. In fact, he seems to think of such discussions as just another way that enthusiasts get information, along with reading his magazine. He wants you to keep participating in forums and continue to read his magazine. He just also wants you to buy products from brick-and-mortar stores. You can disagree with this, but there is nothing about this position that should reasonably cause anyone offense.

Those very ones who cry that we should 'take some personal responsibility' are those who cry that we should blindly trust them and turn over all our money so they can get rich.

If we are to convert to an adversarial society, rather than the cooperative one we've had for 60 years and which made America great, then adversariality works both ways. If B&M is to look out for its best interests and poke the customer for the max he can tolerate, then we as customers must defend ourselves, armed with the best information acquirable and find more direct ways to purchase.

Part of the collateral damage of The Internets, is publishing, news, authors, and other channel-based systems. No deep channels anymore; and no vetting, for better or worse.

We are all adversaries now, each fighting only for ourselves, and reversing thousands of years of development. It's the New World Order.

Wow ! :(

Art

... But clearly his interest is not in criticizing people who frequent forums, any more than he is criticizing people who read his magazine. What he is concerned about is the effect Internet purchases have had on the economic viability of brick-and-mortar stores. He also wanted to explain how the economic crisis has affected WSR. That's it. WHY he is concerned about the viability of brick-and-mortar stores I don't know. If all of them disappeared tomorrow, manufacturers would still need to advertise and enthusiasts would still want to read magazines such as WSR.

From what I can read here (I have not read the entire editorial), you seem to be giving an accurate summary. Indeed he is not directly relating internet forums to the issues WSR may be having with advertising or subscription revenue.

He does clearly blame the internet for the downfall of B & M stores, and as you point out, there is no apparent reason for that. However, one can attempt to infer some reasoning, if he is not willing to divulge it. Perhaps he, or some of his good friends, are invested in one or more B & M stores, and they are doing poorly. Perhaps he feels that shopping at a B & M store is somehow linked to purchasing a magazine (this is no doubt a stretch of the imagination, but a worthwhile hypothesis to investigate nevertheless).

Or perhaps, he does indeed feel that internet forums are taking away from his subscriber base, and more importantly his advertising revenue. Being that he, no doubt, realizes these same internet forum regulars are likely a portion of his subscriber base, instead of shooting himself in the foot and blaming his woes on them, he blames someone elses woes on them. That way he is still able to get off his chest what an "evil" society of internet goers we are, without alienating himself from his customers (at least not directly). I personally believe this last explanation makes the most sense, but then again I don't know him from Adam. However, I cannot think of any other reason why he'd be defending B & M stores when, as you point out, they do not directly correlate to sales or advertising revenue for his magazine (at least in theory). I believe he's clinging to the old sales model: Read about it in a magazine, then go to your local B & M and buy it. I think he's indirectly pointing out that the "new" sales model doesn't involve reading his magazine, or going to a B & M.

Now had he argued that people ought to stop participating in online forums and instead only read magazines such as his you might have something to complain about. But he didn't argue that. In fact, he seems to think of such discussions as just another way that enthusiasts get information, along with reading his magazine. He wants you to keep participating in forums and continue to read his magazine. He just also wants you to buy products from brick-and-mortar stores. You can disagree with this, but there is nothing about this position that should reasonably cause anyone offense.

I agree with most of what you wrote, but there is at least one point about which we disagree. I don't know how you can avoid the conclusion that he believes that this forum and the shopping habits that he thinks it instills are an unfavorable thing.

In fact, in theory I agree with him completely. It would be much better for people to experience and compare products themselves before purchasing them. Who could argue with this?

The sad truth is that it is not now possible to do this (if in fact it ever was possible). I live near New York City, certainly one of the major cities on the planet. You would think it would be easy to see these high end theater products in person. In fact, it is almost impossible to see anything that you actually would want to see. Company 800 numbers or websites listing dealers are almost always wrong or deficient in some way. Then, getting in touch with dealers can be extremely challenging and you have to tackle obstacles like repeated phone calls, voice mail messages, missed calls, and other run arounds. Then, after you have found a dealer who is capable of selling you what you want, I have found that most shops display old stuff or stuff that no one really is interested in buying for one reason or another. Then, assuming you find a store with what you are actually looking for, you often will find imperfect demo environments that don't permit you to draw any real conclusions. It seems like the only place where people can actually see all of this equipment under one roof is at an exhibition like CEDIA.

I don't really know what the answer is. Ideally, a place like Best Buy would stock and display locally everything that we want to see. I don't see this happening anytime soon.

In fact, in theory I agree with him completely. It would be much better for people to experience and compare products themselves before purchasing them. Who could argue with this?



In my opinion realistically as you have already stated this was not possible even with the old sales model. Comparisons could be made sure but apples to apples wasn't really easy or even doable in most instances.

Art

..."Because specialty retailers are increasingly dealing with enthusiasts, who have gathered opinions from magazines, Web sites, and Internet forums, and come into their stores to confirm for themselves the performance qualities and benefits of products they have read about, but who end up leaving the store to seek the lowest price elsewhere at a discount “warehouse” store or on the Internet. . ." ...I agree 100% with the above quote. On the FP > $3K forum in the last year this has occured on AVS at least a dozen times IIRC.

We are in a downward spiral, the enthusiasts complain that they they can't audition products but when the do spend hours viewing a product they end up buying on the internet leaving the B&M out in the cold. The B&Ms have no recourse but to only support protected brands like RUNCO. That lowers the number of producta available for auditioning!

The "widely available information" on the internet is increasingly thinly disguised company shills providing paid advertising. Witness the back and forth between Projector Central (Panny) and Projector Reviews (Epson). :eek

Let me relay a positive experience with a local B&M. A few weeks ago I got a call from a salesman I had bought pjs from, the last 3 years ago. He told me that there was going to be a closeout on the Pioneer FPJ1s. Last week I brought my 12KII in, compared for a few hours and got a new FPJ1(RS2) at the closeout price from them. I also got a chance to see the RUNCOs.

I hope they are around in a few years!

Wow ! :(
Not a very useful response there, Art.

If it were not for AVS I am sure that I would not have this hobby and thus would not have spent the tens of thousands of dollars on it that I have so far.
I can send your wife Alan Gouger's address if she'd like to go kick him in the crotch. ;)

As for WSR, I agree with the poster above who said it just feels behind the times in general. My subscription lapsed a while ago and I don't miss it.

In my opinion realistically as you have already stated this was not possible even with the old sales model. Comparisons could be made sure but apples to apples wasn't really easy or even doable in most instances.

Art

I have made a vow never to buy another projector that I have never seen first hand. This is not because I am unhappy with what I have but because something truly special will have to dethrone my RS20. I have probably made about 20 calls trying to find someone local who will be getting in a Lumis and I have just about given up out of frustration with the experience. Many dealers were pushing me to buy one sight unseen. I think the new model all around is "buy before you try."

I think the new model all around is "buy before you try."
Fair enough. What's the return policy?

The model I use is to read Evan Powell's and Art Feierman's reviews, and then "buy after other AVS members have run a PJ through their own 'torture' tests for 3+ months".

quantumstate -- That depends on who you buy it from:rolleyes:.

I have made a vow never to buy another projector that I have never seen first hand. This is not because I am unhappy with what I have but because something truly special will have to dethrone my RS20. I have probably made about 20 calls trying to find someone local who will be getting in a Lumis and I have just about given up out of frustration with the experience. Many dealers were pushing me to buy one sight unseen. I think the new model all around is "buy before you try."

That is funny. It reminds of the the Internet bubble days when I lived in San Jose. I went into a Porsche dealership to inquire about a car and they had no inventory, I mean zero. I asked the guy hows does someone buy a car without trying it on. He looked at me like I was crazy and said you better get on the list now if you want one. I walked out.

I have made a vow never to buy another projector that I have never seen first hand. This is not because I am unhappy with what I have but because something truly special will have to dethrone my RS20. I have probably made about 20 calls trying to find someone local who will be getting in a Lumis and I have just about given up out of frustration with the experience. Many dealers were pushing me to buy one sight unseen. I think the new model all around is "buy before you try."

No argument there ,I agree completely with this logic.

Art

quantumstate -- That depends on who you buy it from:rolleyes:.
Der. I'm telling him that this is the question he should ask when told to buy before he tries. It should be the reflexive response.

The internet has changed the way we purchase and there is no going back! B&M retailers will continue to disappear. This is happening in many markets and not just HT. If you think of all the items people buy on the internet it certainly has hurt the B&M business model in almost every market.

This change in the marketplace has been going on for a while but with the economic downturn it will just make it happen quicker. Although one can debate the pros and cons of our current marketplace it really is not going to make a difference in the changes that are happening in the way we purchase products. They always say in business school their is Quality, Price and Service - Pick Two.

In the HT market the businesses that are surviving are selling their services and expertise. They are not setting up their showrooms for enthusiasts to sample gear. They are setting up showrooms to demonstrate what they can do as a company such as installation, integration, ease of use, workmanship, etc.

Enthusiasts are not their customers as they often do not need the services these companies offer. The sales model with a bunch of different products to do comparisons between is practically gone. With margins down, pricing highly competative and the technological pace of new models coming out it doesn't make sense for many stores to keep a lot of inventory.

As an enthusiast expect to pay restocking and shipping fees or find places with very good return policies. Demoing in the home does have advantages though:D

If you are not an enthusiast/DIYer expect to pay a BIG premium for products and services from the few remaining companies. That premium will increase as time goes on as there are fewer companies to do the work. Hopefully, the company you choose does have the expertise to provide a great experience.

Just my .02

Bob

I have made a vow never to buy another projector that I have never seen first hand. This is not because I am unhappy with what I have but because something truly special will have to dethrone my RS20. I have probably made about 20 calls trying to find someone local who will be getting in a Lumis and I have just about given up out of frustration with the experience. Many dealers were pushing me to buy one sight unseen. I think the new model all around is "buy before you try."

Too bad most of the time you have to buy one to actually see it set up in such a way as to make an accurate judgment. About the only exception seems to be AV Science, but they're half way across the country. :(

Not a very useful response there, Art.

Literally, I don't know what to say to a rant like that. Is that better ?

Art

My thoughts have clearly gone over your head then. Thanks for not trying.

Aren't these the same people that claim "Hollywood must change their business models". Yet when the internet cuts into their own pocketbook, they want to maintain business as usual.

Can't have it both ways.

Der. I'm telling him that this is the question he should ask when told to buy before he tries. It should be the reflexive response.Of course. I was trying to inject some levity into the conversation.

You need to flip your "Quantum States" - it will help you lighten up :p. Being adversarial doesn't always work nor does it get things done (as you noted). The marketplace has always been a "caveat emptor", and the internet has helped in that regard - if one does his/her research. The down-side is that it also provides a platform for the charlatans.

If a consumer doesn't waste a sales person's time and use the resources of a B&M location to audition gear that then they go and buy elsewhere, I have no problem with on-line purchases.

But it's not fair to exploit a B&M location and spend an afternoon of a sales person's time auditioning speakers and swapping cables and gear, and then take your "decision" to an on-line retailer to take the profit.

I also read Gary's editorial. Guess everyone can have their opinions. Not sure blaming/complaining is the right approach and will have any impact except to make "you feel good". There is really no going back at this point. He needs to embrace the changing world and figure out where WSR can continue to add value for his subscribers. For example, he quit doing DVD reviews and only does BluRay at this point. SJ

SJHT -- Home Theater Magazine has also dropped DVD reviews (and HD-DVD) - Blu-ray only. WSR is not alone there.

Too bad most of the time you have to buy one to actually see it set up in such a way as to make an accurate judgment. About the only exception seems to be AV Science, but they're half way across the country. :(
I second that. My buying experience with AV Science was nonpareil and served as a role model for the industry. I was given impartial and succinct technical advice along with prompt responses to emails and phone calls.

My experience with my local B&M dealers had been the polar opposite.

if not for this forum and the internet dealers, I wouldn't have bought any PJ at all. all the B&Ms around here either have zero PJ or carry high end stuff and do custom install. I don't think they have much use for my $2500-3000 max budget.

of course maybe the reason B&Ms here only carry high end stuff is the net has totally undercut their lower end business.

one thing the B&Ms have a legitimate gripe is the tax advantage enjoyed by internet stores. as much as I like not paying sales tax (yes I know, I'm supposed to, but seriously, who does?), why should amazon.com enjoy a built in 8.25% advantage to the local best buy?

My thoughts have clearly gone over your head then. Thanks for not trying.

Since you asked , it appeared to be a scary paranoid harangue to me.

Art

Several shops quit, but this is not because of Internet.

Long before Internet, there was mail-order sales. Some people figured out that mail-order sales amounted to roughly 10% of total sales. Internet sales probably don't amount to much, either. That's because a projector in the hand is worth two in the Internet bush.

You and I aren't so desperately urgent because we have one or more fully functional projectors. Lacking urgency, we seek best prices. Our own expenses are crazy high, when you consider the frequency of buying a product, soon to be followed by another.

Since you asked , it appeared to be a scary paranoid harangue to me.
Well. That's a shame.

Interesting thread. Based on my own experience as CI it seems to me that many folks on here (and this isn't a criticism) have a misguided expectation of what a high end A/V store should offer. I think the days are more or less gone where you can walk into a store and see a number of projectors on display, speaker options, etc. Mostly because no one can afford to have these products hang around their shops. Manufacturers aren't giving them away. I think the future (and present for that matter) for High end and CI shops is to provide a service - design, project management, calibration, custom programming, training, etc. Sometimes higher product prices are a part of that because we have all have to make a living, right?

Personally, I think there is plenty of room for the DIY enthusiasts and high end shops to co-exist peacefully. Part of that means the shops need to understand what they're competing against and DIY's should be aware that going to a shop to demo product that you have no intention of buying is money out of someone's pocket.

Just my opinion.

Interesting thread. Based on my own experience as CI it seems to me that many folks on here (and this isn't a criticism) have a misguided expectation of what a high end A/V store should offer. I think the days are more or less gone where you can walk into a store and see a number of projectors on display, speaker options, etc. Mostly because no one can afford to have these products hang around their shops. Manufacturers aren't giving them away.

Maybe, but one of the greatest services a shop could provide is to help a customer choose the best projector for their needs. And for most people (probably far more than the small, "Just make it good and tell me when it's done" crowd) that mean being able help them choose between two similar projectors, by showing them.

I mean they've got to provide some sort of benefit vs ordering online, eg:
In stock (no shipping)
Compare in person

For example I bought a Pioneer BD player for quite a bit more than I could have online because 1) it was a local shop, but more imporantly 2) because they had it on hand.

When it comes to projectors, especially the mid-priced ones (the ones discussed in this forum that are far from cheap), I don't think you actually have to have them all on display. But I think if shops made the effort to have good knowledge of a variety of options, and to be able to get them to show, that would be great for them. I believe AV Science does this. They probably don't have many on static display, but AFAIK they'll get almost anything in to show you so you can make a decision on which you want.

I think unless the B&M shops want to completely abandon the "DIY" (and I use the term very loosely) market, those who are comfortable hooking it up themselves, they're going to have to figure out how to be able to help people make educated decisions.

Unfortunately this is not the case around here. Here the shops carry one or two brands of projector tops, and they only have a couple on display. That's just not going to cut it in the age where there are so many good options.

I think the future (and present for that matter) for High end and CI shops is to provide a service - design, project management, calibration, custom programming, training, etc. Sometimes higher product prices are a part of that because we have all have to make a living, right?

Higher prices are absolutely justified when you're providing additional value. Unfortunately most B&M's lately seem to not do that. They don't have the projector you want on display, so you can't compare them, and they don't have it in stock. So end of the day, all you "get" from buying B&M is higher cost and less gas in the tank.

I mean if I can't see it, and it's got to be ordered, what do I get from the higher B&M price?

Personally, I think there is plenty of room for the DIY enthusiasts and high end shops to co-exist peacefully. Part of that means the shops need to understand what they're competing against and DIY's should be aware that going to a shop to demo product that you have no intention of buying is money out of someone's pocket.

I think if more B&M's embraced the AV Science model, be able to get almost anything, be willing/able to demo almost anything, they'd be better off than the typical, 1-2 brand "this is what we've got, and we can get it for you in a week" thing they're doing these days.

I don't think many B&M's can use an AV Science model. AV Science has a huge internet business to support having products to demo. A small shop would lose money if they brought in that many different products to demo. Especially, with the latest and greatest changing every six months.

Also their volume wouldn't support being a dealer for too many brands. To get 'set up' as a dealer with many companies they often require minimum amount in sales per year and demos. A small shop might not have the volume to meet these requirements with a large variety of brands. Not to mention many brands only allow so many dealers per territory.

For a small shop to do this they would have to have an agreement/ contract with the consumer to buy a projector from them at an agreed upon price after comparing say 3 models. Then the business would bring in those products for comparison. I'm not sure many conusmers would be willing to do this. A few might but probably not enough in a most areas to support this type of business.

I know in our company we had a customer once that came in and described his desires and set up. We did an onsite evaluation at no charge and recommended a projector that fit his needs. It was more than he was willing to spend, although money wasn't the issue he just didn't think these things cost that much for what he wanted. So he demoed a total of 17 projectors of which many we brought in just for him to view. In the end, he increased his budget and went with the model we originally suggested and bought it online for $500 lless (for a $10K projector at the time with a fair discount).

We not only lost the sale but lost money on a few of the projectors as we had to sell them below cost and they can no longer be sold as new. Do you think we will cater to this type of enthusiast again?

We are building a new showroom currently. The showroom will be set up to display different products for varous environments (we mostly do projectors), audio and video demos, advantages of contstucting a room correctly, calibration, workmanship, integration, etc. It will not be set up for comparing products. If a customer doesn't value our expertise there is nothing wrong with that, they are just not our target market. I think many B&Ms are in similar situations.

I personally really enjoy dealing with enthusiasts as someone I can 'talk shop' with, but it is just not profitable for our company to cater to that market. I do think that if you are shopping at a B&M they should be able to provide the expertise otherwise they offer little value over buying on line.

Luckily for me I do get to evaluate/ calibrate a lot of products for our company and I do get to do comparisons but not always the products I want at the same time. I do have a few pieces I use as a reference for my comparisons.

If you are a DIY/ enthusiast (which most on this forum are) I think options for comparing products will be limited in the future and not just for AV equipment. It is just the way the consumer market is changing. Our current economy will make it even more difficult.

I do wish there were more places to demo equipment (again not just AV) but I see both sides of the coin and I don't see that changing in the near future.

My .02

Bob

I don't think many B&M's can use an AV Science model. AV Science has a huge internet business to support having products to demo. A small shop would lose money if they brought in that many different products to demo. Especially, with the latest and greatest changing every six months.

Also their volume wouldn't support being a dealer for too many brands. To get 'set up' as a dealer with many companies they often require minimum amount in sales per year and demos. A small shop might not have the volume to meet these requirements with a large variety of brands. Not to mention many brands only allow so many dealers per territory.

For a small shop to do this they would have to have an agreement/ contract with the consumer to buy a projector from them at an agreed upon price after comparing say 3 models. Then the business would bring in those products for comparison. I'm not sure many conusmers would be willing to do this. A few might but probably not enough in a most areas to support this type of business.

I definitely hear what you're saying, but I do wonder just how much business AVS gets "online". Obviously it's more than normal, but I'd be surprised if it were enough to be considered "huge".

But you highlight what may be one of the problems, these volume requirements that keep smaller shops from selling lots of brands. What if the whole industry got together, the distributors/OEMs could have "demo" machines that their dealers could request specifically for customer demos. But I'm rambling sorta.

My main point was that AVS has found a way to do well (I assume) soft of bridging the gap between Online-only, and full-custom-install. Others should be able to do the same.

I know in our company we had a customer once that came in and described his desires and set up. We did an onsite evaluation at no charge and recommended a projector that fit his needs. It was more than he was willing to spend, although money wasn't the issue he just didn't think these things cost that much for what he wanted. So he demoed a total of 17 projectors of which many we brought in just for him to view. In the end, he increased his budget and went with the model we originally suggested and bought it online for $500 lless (for a $10K projector at the time with a fair discount).

We not only lost the sale but lost money on a few of the projectors as we had to sell them below cost and they can no longer be sold as new. Do you think we will cater to this type of enthusiast again?
[/QUOTE]

That's horrible, unfortunately there's not much you can do about people like that. Obviously you can just not bring in demos, but only you would know if that's better or worse for your business. FWIW, that Blu-ray player I mentioned, I paid over $100 more for it locally, because they had it, and I have a good relationship with that store. That's about 30% more. Throwing a store that got 17 projectors in for you under the bus for a 5% savings is just not right.

I would say, I don't think you "lost" the sale, unfortunately I don't think you ever had a chance with that person.

We are building a new showroom currently. The showroom will be set up to display different products for varous environments (we mostly do projectors), audio and video demos, advantages of contstucting a room correctly, calibration, workmanship, integration, etc. It will not be set up for comparing products. If a customer doesn't value our expertise there is nothing wrong with that, they are just not our target market. I think many B&Ms are in similar situations.

I wish there were more stores like that, but I just don't get that impression from those around here. And I do value expertise, but there's a fine line between expert advise and seeming arrogant (I'm not saying you are).

I personally really enjoy dealing with enthusiasts as someone I can 'talk shop' with, but it is just not profitable for our company to cater to that market. I do think that if you are shopping at a B&M they should be able to provide the expertise otherwise they offer little value over buying on line.

That's fine, and if I walked into a shop and they told me flat out that they can't help because they can't compete price wise in the "DIY" market, I can completely understand and respect that.

But getting back OT, I think this is sort of a case of "put up or shut up". You can't have it both ways. You can't lament people who aren't interested in professional design/installation services going online to save money, while at the same time saying you aren't going to compete in that market.

I think you've got just the right outlook. You've decided you can't compete, so you're happilly going about doing the best you can in the area you do want to compete in.

It's these shops/installers/editors that are crying foul about the internet that have the problem (as much of a problem as those who use local shops and then go online for the same product).

Personally I don't think the internet has taken much away from the B&M HT business. Before the internet, projectors were $10k+ for a decent one, and you could only buy them locally. I remember those days and remember thinking there wasn't a chance I could get a projector. It wasn't until about that 3rd generation of 720p DLPs plummeted in price that I was comfortable/able to get in the market. So I think the internet has hugely expanded the market more than anything, getting people in who wouldn't/couldn't otherwise. And there will always be those who have more money than time/intererest to sink into getting their HT going that the custom install market caters to.

Maybe, but one of the greatest services a shop could provide is to help a customer choose the best projector for their needs. And for most people (probably far more than the small, "Just make it good and tell me when it's done" crowd) that mean being able help them choose between two similar projectors, by showing them.


I mean they've got to provide some sort of benefit vs ordering online, eg:
In stock (no shipping)
Compare in person

For example I bought a Pioneer BD player for quite a bit more than I could have online because 1) it was a local shop, but more imporantly 2) because they had it on hand.

When it comes to projectors, especially the mid-priced ones (the ones discussed in this forum that are far from cheap), I don't think you actually have to have them all on display. But I think if shops made the effort to have good knowledge of a variety of options, and to be able to get them to show, that would be great for them. I believe AV Science does this. They probably don't have many on static display, but AFAIK they'll get almost anything in to show you so you can make a decision on which you want.

I think unless the B&M shops want to completely abandon the "DIY" (and I use the term very loosely) market, those who are comfortable hooking it up themselves, they're going to have to figure out how to be able to help people make educated decisions.

Unfortunately this is not the case around here. Here the shops carry one or two brands of projector tops, and they only have a couple on display. That's just not going to cut it in the age where there are so many good options.



Higher prices are absolutely justified when you're providing additional value. Unfortunately most B&M's lately seem to not do that. They don't have the projector you want on display, so you can't compare them, and they don't have it in stock. So end of the day, all you "get" from buying B&M is higher cost and less gas in the tank.

I mean if I can't see it, and it's got to be ordered, what do I get from the higher B&M price?



I think if more B&M's embraced the AV Science model, be able to get almost anything, be willing/able to demo almost anything, they'd be better off than the typical, 1-2 brand "this is what we've got, and we can get it for you in a week" thing they're doing these days.

I guess I have a slightly different perspective as we do only CI projects. Your quote above about getting the product in a week has virtually no relevance to our business model as most projects take 6 months to 2 years to complete. Our business model is all about providing people a higher level of service for their needs. Some are the type to just write the check, but most are very interested in getting into the details and taking time to design their systems with us. And then, there are some people who are more interested in having a reliable solution (specific parts aren't so important) and then there are those who want reliability but are also interested in which specific products and why.

I guess maybe the main point of my post was to say that what I see being gone in the future are the stores that you can walk into and see various projectors on display and walk out with one that day (except for the big box stores). Stores that have overhead and the need to pay quality sales people just can't compete with the internet where people can get the exact same products with the same warranties for far less money.

Another point of my post is CI shops aren't (CAN'T!) going to take the place of those specialty retail shops and that is where the DIYs who want to demo product are going to suffer. When someone calls me about a specific product, I can generally tell in about two minutes if that person is going to be someone we have a shot at doing business with. The problem is that they don't want my services, and I can't afford to sell them the product at the price they want (and can get elsewhere). If we were to sell products at the rates on the internet and not sell any of our services, we'd be losing money. Case in point: many TVs today barely have any markup on them. If you reduce that to the cheapest price on the internet, it's nil. Then add in the shipping I have to pay, the overhead for someone to order it, track it, receive it, deliver it, pay the invoice, etc. When that's said and done I'd be losing money and I imagine most other CIs are in the same boat.

I guess I have a slightly different perspective as we do only CI projects. Your quote above about getting the product in a week has virtually no relevance to our business model as most projects take 6 months to 2 years to complete. Our business model is all about providing people a higher level of service for their needs.

Oh definitely, and I think a clearly CI only business are a completely different beast. There's at least one or two of them around here and they don't even have a (public at least) showroom, nor would they need one (not a public, walk-in welcome) one.

Some are the type to just write the check, but most are very interested in getting into the details and taking time to design their systems with us. And then, there are some people who are more interested in having a reliable solution (specific parts aren't so important) and then there are those who want reliability but are also interested in which specific products and why.

I guess maybe the main point of my post was to say that what I see being gone in the future are the stores that you can walk into and see various projectors on display and walk out with one that day (except for the big box stores). Stores that have overhead and the need to pay quality sales people just can't compete with the internet where people can get the exact same products with the same warranties for far less money.

Yeah, and I largely agree, or at least I can see that happening quite easily. And that's really what my post(s) was about. There are a lot of B&M shops that got by for years because they basically had a monopoly on their market, want a projector, you've got to come to us and pay our price. It was the way it was, you could only buy this type of stuff at the local shops.

Now we've got the internet and places like AV Science that have made it possible for anyone to get almost any projector, and for a great price. Now these local shops that got by by having no competition are screaming and yelling that their customers are leaving. Well the simple fact is many of these shop didn't provide any more value than mail-order venders do, and at a better price.

Another point of my post is CI shops aren't (CAN'T!) going to take the place of those specialty retail shops and that is where the DIYs who want to demo product are going to suffer. When someone calls me about a specific product, I can generally tell in about two minutes if that person is going to be someone we have a shot at doing business with. The problem is that they don't want my services, and I can't afford to sell them the product at the price they want (and can get elsewhere). If we were to sell products at the rates on the internet and not sell any of our services, we'd be losing money. Case in point: many TVs today barely have any markup on them. If you reduce that to the cheapest price on the internet, it's nil. Then add in the shipping I have to pay, the overhead for someone to order it, track it, receive it, deliver it, pay the invoice, etc. When that's said and done I'd be losing money and I imagine most other CIs are in the same boat.

No disagreement here.

I definitely don't scream foul about the internet. It is just the way it is and it is not changing! No need whining about it. I use it to save a buck when I can for something I'm doing myself. But if I need to call a professional for a service I know I'm going to pay a premium for it.

Margins are low in a lot of areas (especially consumer electronics and computers) and if companies are not making as much money from the sale of goods the cost of labor is going to be higher. Small outfits have difficutly competing on price for equipment unless it is a specialty item and not available on the internet. Larger organizations may be direct with a manufacturer and not have to go through a distributor as well as getting volume pricing.

I think there is going to be whining on both ends but it is pointless. Dealers want better margins and protected pricing so they can compete with internet retailers. Enthusiasts want to be able to demo product. The vast majority of consumers want PRICE and the majority rules. Enthusiasts and small dealers are out of luck. Just a sign of the times.

BTW, some of our distributors have products we can use for demo but it is a service I've only used once for some higher end speakers. We just haven't had a lot of call for it in our area. Enthusiasts are a rare bread.

Bob

I definitely don't scream foul about the internet. It is just the way it is and it is not changing! No need whining about it. I use it to save a buck when I can for something I'm doing myself. But if I need to call a professional for a service I know I'm going to pay a premium for it.

I didn't mean to imply you were, I was referring to those, like in the WSR editorial.

I think most here at least, while we regret that B&M's don't/can't serve our market, accept the fact. Which is why this article/editorial has generated so much discussion. Because as you noted, the whining is pointless....

I just renewed my sub. I still want know more about Monster Cable HDMI cables.