Guys,

I have just bought a SONY HW10 but I cannot forget how good the blacks were on the DILA 350HD and how the excellent foundation of blacks made everything looked so three dimensional. I am suffering from a little bit of buyers remorse and thinking I should have coughed up another 40% of the cost of the HW10 just to get the DILA.

I really don't know how dearer projectors like the Marantz, SIM2 and Sharp can compete with the DILA. The DILA is so overwhelmingly better in contrast the I propose the AVS forum restructure the topic format to:

DILA: Killer of all digital projectors and some CRT projectors.
Better blacks: Sony HW10, Marantz DLP etc.
All other projectors:

If you have bought an IN83 or a HW83 or whatever and if you want to be happy with your purchase, do not have a look at the new JVC DILA line up because when you sleep at night you will be dreaming about those blacks and depth.

People try to justify their decisions by saying that the color isn't perfect etc. If you ain't got good blacks, you can have the best color in the world or 9 billion pixels and your picture will still look washed out.

The sad truth is that in the scheme of things, the DILA really is quite cheap compared to projectors of the past. Remember what the NEC HT1000, Plus Piano, Sony HT12 used to cost???

May be your reaction has more to do with how bad hw10 is and not how good hd350 is ? >:} I've read from multiple sources that hw10 doesn't even come close to the epson 6500ub contrast, and looks flat even compared to that.
I really wanna see some of the good under $5k dlp's vs hd350

I am suffering from a little bit of buyers remorse


hehe ... some things never change hey Lyndon :D


If you ain't got good blacks, you can have the best color in the world or 9 billion pixels and your picture will still look washed out.


Which is why I'm sticking with that old technology until the new kids on the block grow out of their nappies and get it right. If you need another reality check feel free to drop on by any time .. LOL

Cheers mate,

take care

Russ

Hmm, I have peace of mind with my 6500ub, but you know what they say "Ignorance is bliss."

Sorry to hear you have buyers remorse, can you exchange the unit? Even losing a little bit in return fees might be worth it since I assume you will be keeping a pj for sometime.

The other thing I forgot to add was if you are in Melbourne and would like to continue to enjoy your projector...do not visit Benny as seeing his system will sow the seeds of dissatisfaction.

But if you are based in Melbourne and want your digital projector color calibrated by the best at a ridiculously reasonable price then contact Benny...just don't go to his house if he invites you. Wow..what a difference it made to my image...color calibration.

Russ, what is your opinion on the DILA since you calibrated so many at CLEF Hi-Fi? Close to CRT blacks ? or not quite yet?

I am assessing what it would cost me to return it to the retailer.

You are right James, ignorance is indeed bliss. If you go looking for trouble...you will always find it and his name is DILA.

I saw a question in this forum asking what is the best projector in the $10,000-$15,000 range...I was laughing to myself responding: " there isn't one in the price" because the best one is in the $5,000 to $7,000 price range and its name is the RS10 or RS20.

At least I cannot be accused of supporting the product which I have bought because I don't have a DILA.

But the thing is astounding because it doesn't have an IRIS and yet it could produce such stunning blacks. Intra scene or ansi contrast where there was some light and a lot of darkness was simply amazing...the last scene in the Dark Knight for example where in complete pitch darkness covered one side of Harvey Dent's face...the bright side was still very bright but the dark side was still inky black.........what the ??? How did they do that...great technology !!

If you seave through the good professional reviews of Art Friedman's and UltimateAV magazines when they are review more expensive PJ's like the Marantz and are making comparison to the new DILA's, you can sense that they are trying to hint to readers that the DILA is really it for now...but always add that the Marantz is overall worth the price. There is a general sense that they are preserving the market hierarchy and price segmentation.

May be your reaction has more to do with how bad hw10 is and not how good hd350 is ? >:} I've read from multiple sources that hw10 doesn't even come close to the epson 6500ub contrast, and looks flat even compared to that.
I really wanna see some of the good under $5k dlp's vs hd350

I had to go back a few times to view the Epson TW2000 because I could not believe how 'flat' it looked in Transformers. At Clef HiFi, they had the TW2000 and the DILA back to back. Melbournites will know this.

I did not even think the TW2000 was a significant increase in PQ from my 4 years old Mitsubishi HC900u at every level except for resolution.

After viewing the DILA, you just want the store manager to switch the Epson off.

In my opinion, the Sony seemed more three dimensional compared to the Epson. Better blacks. Not intending to insult..just my viewing opinion. I am not married to my projector so I don't have personal feelings towards my choice.

Come across this ranking from HIVI magazine Japan of 2008 Winter Best Buy

http://www.stereosound.co.jp/hivi/bestbuy/index.html

Under 300k Yen
1 Sony VPL-HW10
2 Epson EH-TW3000
2 Mitsubishi LVP-HC5500
4 Sanyo LP-Z700
5 Panasonic TH-AX200
6 Mitsubishi LVP-HC3100

300k-700k Yen
1 Panasonic TH-AE3000
2 Mitsubishi LVP-HC7000
3 JVC DLA-HD350
3 Epson EH-TW4000
5 Sanyo LP-Z3000
6 Optoma HD803
6 JVC DLA-HD1

Over 700k Yen
1 JVC DLA-HD750
2 Sony VPL-VW80
3 Sony VPL-VW200
4 JVC DLA-HD100
4 Marantz VP-15S1
6 JVC DLA-HD11K

Anyone knows what they don't like about HD350 and only rank it third in its catergory? BTW Sony HW10 is top in its class and not a direct competitor to HD350.

That's a ridiculous ranking if any of the people on this forum or projectorreviews are to be trusted. ae3000 over the hc7000 and 6500ub doesn't seem feasable from PQ pov, but ok..ae3000 over hd350?! and all of them over rs1?
.

I did not even think the TW2000 was a significant increase in PQ from my 4 years old Mitsubishi HC900u at every level except for resolution.

After viewing the DILA, you just want the store manager to switch the Epson off.

Are you comparing last year's Epson 3LCD to this year's JVC D-ILA? If so, this thread is even more silly than I thought.

I've had the Epson 6500UB (TW5000 I think it is called elsewhere) and the JVC RS20 side-by-side here in my own home. The Epson held up against the JVC surprisingly well. Of course the JVC demonstrated greater dynamic range, being able to simultaneously display blacker blacks and whiter whites. But the Epson wasn't very far behind and still looked good even side-by-side (simultaneously with the same image) with the RS20. An impressive performance indeed especially considering the RS20 costs roughly 2.5 times as much as the Epson. The RS20 was not significantly better or worse in terms of sharpness, convergence, or brightness (in Best/Theater modes).

Are you comparing last year's Epson 3LCD to this year's JVC D-ILA? If so, this thread is even more silly than I thought.

I've had the Epson 6500UB (TW5000 I think it is called elsewhere) and the JVC RS20 side-by-side here in my own home. The Epson held up against the JVC surprisingly well. Of course the JVC demonstrated greater dynamic range, being able to simultaneously display blacker blacks and whiter whites. But the Epson wasn't very far behind and still looked good even side-by-side (simultaneously with the same image) with the RS20. An impressive performance indeed especially considering the RS20 costs roughly 2.5 times as much as the Epson. The RS20 was not significantly better or worse in terms of sharpness, convergence, or brightness (in Best/Theater modes).

If the 6500UB is equivalent to the TW2000 then I had better go back for the fourth time to check out if the calibration is set properly. Clef-Hi sometimes run the signal through a DVDO- Scaler which had on one oAQccassion pumped up the brightness too much which may explain the washed out look.

I am not doubting you so I am completely open and welcome your opinion.

Guys,
I really don't know how dearer projectors like the Marantz, SIM2 and Sharp can compete with the DILA. The DILA is so overwhelmingly better in contrast the I propose the AVS forum restructure the topic format to:

DILA: Killer of all digital projectors and some CRT projectors.
Better blacks: Sony HW10, Marantz DLP etc.
All other projectors: All the Epson range and LCD projectors.


Since ignorance is bliss you had better not compare it to a Sim2 Lumis. The Lumis has better blacks overall, significantly better uniformity, significantly better ANSI, and better light output compared to current DILA. Albeit at a much higher price, but your statement above didn't qualify anything by price.

Since ignorance is bliss you had better not compare it to a Sim2 Lumis. The Lumis has better blacks overall, significantly better uniformity, significantly better ANSI, and better light output compared to current DILA. Albeit at a much higher price, but your statement above didn't qualify anything by price.

I take it you didn't look in the OTHER DILA thread..........

The Lumis was defended vociferously, and all the Dila fans were beat over the head with the $40,000 juggernaut.

I think this thread was a branch/laugh at the other......

The other DILA thread was started by the same person as this one. He doesnt seem very credible to me cause he says hw10 has better blacks than 6500ub (first time I hear that). On the other hand I believe him that hd350 looks amazing compared to cheaper 3lcd units and old/cheap DLP's that he mentioned. Multiblitz in another thread rated the Planar pd8150 as superior to hd750(!) in every regard apart from absolute blacks (even said he prefered the contrast of the Planar intrascene-wise). I really wish I could compare them personally.

I think the DILA`s looks like Disneyland on LSD. I think Lyndolim is in JVC`s pocket. He`s got no credibility at all.

I think these threads are ridicuolous and prone to subjective opinion which makes them useless...unless of course your actual intent is to cause trouble...then they're very effective.

Okay. I think Bytehoven's excellent tip on closing down the IRIS could really saved me from upgrading to the DILA. I was able to get to the service menu to alter the minimum iris setting so was able to close it down further. This seems to have lowered the black level quite significantly on the HW10. Thank you Bytehoven.

It looks like I may have made a mistake in equating the TW2000 here to a US UB6500. So my apologies for any inaccurate views. If you are refering to the TW5000 then I have not seen this yet but this is due in Aust in the next few weeks.

What I am saying is that if you are shopping for a projector under $15K, you should take a look at the DILA before pulling the trigger.

If you chose another PJ after seeing the DILA then at least you can rest assure that you have at least considered one of the most evolutionary digital products in a long time. I believe there is a reason a lot of the very seasoned A/V journalist use the RS1 as their benchmark projectors.

After viewing the DILA, you just want the store manager to switch the Epson off.


maybe that was the reaction he wanted you to have.?
ie, dila set up to look better than other one?
higher margin from sale of the dila?

lyndonlim

Wooden spoon awarded the last thread had me in stiches i can`t take it again in this 1......

Well, I don't know where you live, but here in the UK, the HD350 (RS10) is around 2.3x what I paid for my HW10. (approx $2200/$5000 at the current exchange rate)

Personally, I could not live with the oversaturated gamut of the HD350, which would mean that I'd have to buy the HD750 (RS20) which is 3.5x the cost of the HW10 (approx $7700) and I hear that the CMS JVC implemented is not working correctly. If that is the case, I would then need to add a Lumagen Radiance to sort out the colour, which is another £3500. ($5000)

I have also heard that the motion handling is worse on D-ILA compared to SXRD, and ANSI contrast is much lower. (and LCoS in general doesn't do too well with either)

JVC's projectors also seem to have uniformity issues, and my HW10 is pretty much perfect. Even if it wasn't perfect, there's a 3456-point uniformity adjustment I can access in the service menu. There's also a panel alignment feature on the HW10 whereas you're stuck with bad convergence on the JVCs if you're unlucky.

Now, the HW10's colour reproduction isn't perfect either, but I have been able to get pretty accurate colour using their RCP system. It's not perfect, but it's no so bad that I feel I'd need to add a Radiance. (I absolutely cannot stand strongly oversaturated colours)

I'm quite sure that the JVC projectors are producing much better black levels, but the HW10 is already stretching the limits of my budget, especially considering that I have had to start from scratch and had to buy a screen, cabling, velvet for the walls, blackout materials etc. as well.



I don't think it's fair to compare the two though. They may both be LCoS-based projectors, but they're aimed at two different sections of the market.

A better comparison would be the HD350 and the VW80, as they are much closer priced. (approx £1000 difference between them, rather than £2000 between the HW10/HD350)



Now I have to admit that while I was quite happy with the HW10 initially, I am a little disappointed now that I have my screen up and have the room blacked out. (partially, anyway)

It has improved intra-scene contrast a lot, but overall contrast is perceptibly worse now than it was before as the image is now framed in black rather than just going onto a white wall.


What I have found though is that changing from the auto iris to a lower manual iris has helped a lot. While the auto iris noticeably improves contrast in darker scenes (though it sometimes dims things too much) it makes brighter scenes too bright, washing out the picture.

I also found that switching to Gamma Correction 3 (2.3 gamma) helped improve contrast a lot. It's a little darker than I'd prefer with dark scenes in films (less shadow detail than I'd like) but really improves the overall image.


I do think it's interesting how many people have said their SXRD projectors have a very film-like image though. From what I understand, even though the HW10 is the cheapest SXRD yet, it outperforms everything but the VW80. (though the Xenon bulb SXRDs may look better despite the lower contrast—I can't really say)

To me, it just looks like a giant LCD. Motion handing is very much like an LCD, but without the image trailing/smearing due to SXRD's better response time. (it still blurs when things move though, presumably due to the sample & hold effect) Same thing goes for colour reproduction and contrast—it feels very much like an LCD panel.

But a couple of years ago it cost me £1500 for Sony's top-end 32" LCD with a three-year warranty. Now that's the same price I paid for my HW10, and for the same money I'm getting an image that has more accurate colour, better motion handling, is higher resolution, has better image processing (no forced sharpness/overscan) and has better contrast. Oh, and the picture is 14x the size!



Would I like deeper black levels and better ANSI contrast? Absolutely.
Would I sacrifice colour accuracy, motion handling, uniformity and convergence for an improvement in contrast? No.
Would I spend over 3x what I did on the HW10 just for a higher contrast image? Not at all.


If you have the money, and do feel that it's worth spending that kind of money on a projector that will be outdated in a couple of years, by all means buy a JVC. If you can afford the HD750/RS20, I'm sure it's a great viewing experience.

I think it's absurd that there are people on the forum here saying that they're the only projectors worth buying though.

*Yawn*

I have a BenQ W20000 and it beats the HD350 in sharpness, color accuracy, ANSI contrast, shadow detail, brightness, and motion (no blur!).

Oh, for nearly half the cost.

Since this thread's a joke anyway, how about that DLP thing ... the Snap, Crackle, and POP that DILA will never have? :D

You can have your marginally better black (which is a moot point if you don't have a fully light controlled setup anyway).

I don't even want to think what the W20K does to your SONY HW10.

Not suitable for children, methinks.

I've found peace...since 2000 :)

It looks like I may have made a mistake in equating the TW2000 here to a US UB6500. So my apologies for any inaccurate views. If you are refering to the TW5000 then I have not seen this yet but this is due in Aust in the next few weeks.

Yes, TW2000 is last year's 1080UB. TW5000/6500UB is the new model to replace that and has higher contrast, better blacks (among other improvements). Definitely take a look at one if you get a chance. There are a lot of fairly minor/niggling things I don't like about the 6500UB but image quality is not one of them.

Since this thread's a joke anyway, how about that DLP thing ... the Snap, Crackle, and POP that DILA will never have? :D


I have been doing a side by side with the W5000 and the RS1 as of last night...The W20000 has a bit better blacks, but not as good as the RS1 so I would say the comparisons are similar.

I noticed that there are times when the RS1 definitely has the advantage in 'POP' over the DLP thanks to the better native on/off. There are other times when the advantage goes to the DLP (in brighter scenes depending on the content). I would actually call it a 'draw' for pop by the law of averages. This surprised me actually.

As for blur, I ran some sequences which I considered to be a 'torture test' for blur that I used in extensive testing with flat panel LCD, I am pleased to say that if the blur is there, it is not detectable to my critical eye in any of my tests...the RS1 does *FAR* better than FP LCD counterparts and IMO it is a non-issue. If there is a difference with the W5000, I couldn't see it.

Colour accuracy under factory conditions definitely went to the RS1...colour tracking in dark areas isn't as good under these conditions. I will have to calibrate first to compare the colour.

Calibrating for brightness and contrast...the RS1 is FAR brighter than the W5000 while maintaining a better black. This makes a big difference depending on content.

Its a bit of a mixed bag so far, but I would lean toward the RS1 so far...which also surprised me.

I will post a full comparison in a separate thread when I have more tests completed and more time on my hands.

*Yawn*

I have a BenQ W20000 and it beats the HD350 in sharpness, color accuracy, ANSI contrast, shadow detail, brightness, and motion (no blur!).

Oh, for nearly half the cost.

Since this thread's a joke anyway, how about that DLP thing ... the Snap, Crackle, and POP that DILA will never have? :D

You can have your marginally better black (which is a moot point if you don't have a fully light controlled setup anyway).

I don't even want to think what the W20K does to your SONY HW10.

Not suitable for children, methinks.

I agree - the W20000 is a darn nice machine. And has many nice performance features (especially sharpness/ANSI/motion handling) that I wish were incorporated into the HD350/HD750. But the W20000 has two HUGE show stopping strikes against it for my needs.


RBE
Ultra short throw (1.2 zoom ratio)


(I also prefer NO dynamic iris, a quieter projector and higher native On/Off)

Maybe some day a machine will be manufactured combining the best features of DLP and the best features of DILA (I initially was hoping the HD750 would be just such a machine - but sadly it's not).

Even though many think this thread is pointless and highly biased, which I agree to an extent. I found myself in the same boat as Lyndon, I went to demo both units (HD750/HD350 and 7500ub) side by side and many AVSers familiar with my RS20 Vs 7500ub thread know that I was sold on the Epson based on paper specs and I was very stubborn and resistant to throw the extra $2500 on the RS20/HD750, but that all changed when I demoed both units side by side, I do have to mention that it was not the best 100% lighting controlled environment. But in brief, the InFocus IN83 with its sharper crisper image, and the Epson with its overblown paper specs, did not stand a chance next to the HD750 or HD350, even an out of the box uncalibrated HD750 in THX mode looked visibly better than the calibrated and very loud InFocus In83, I won't get in details here, but I was 100% going for the 3LCD Epson and was open to go back to DLP with the InFocus, until I saw the light! As they say, I was blind now I can see!

Unless a better technology comes along in the $4000-$6000 range, the DILA with its few compromises like motion blur which I can't even detect (I guess my 20/20 vision sucks) are by far the better of the bunch (DLP/3LCD), but this is purely subjective so don't over analyze it, my set of eyes were more into the DILA over the DLP or 3LCD, same goes for my wife who is oblivious to either technologies or brands.

Even though many think this thread is pointless and highly biased, which I agree to an extent. I found myself in the same boat as Lyndon, I went to demo both units (HD750/HD350 and 7500ub) side by side and many AVSers familiar with my RS20 Vs 7500ub thread know that I was sold on the Epson based on paper specs and I was very stubborn and resistant to throw the extra $2500 on the RS20/HD750, but that all changed when I demoed both units side by side, I do have to mention that it was not the best 100% lighting controlled environment. But in brief, the InFocus IN83 with its sharper crisper image, and the Epson with its overblown paper specs, did not stand a chance next to the HD750 or HD350, even an out of the box uncalibrated HD750 in THX mode looked visibly better than the calibrated and very loud InFocus In83, I won't get in details here, but I was 100% going for the 3LCD Epson, until I saw the light! As they say, I was blind now I can see! Unless a better technology comes along, the DILA with its few compromises are by far the better of the bunch (DLP/3LCD), but this is purely subjective so don't over analyze it, my set of eyes were more into the DILA over the DLP or 3LCD, same goes for my wife who is oblivious to either technologies or brands.


Indeed. Generally LCD's, though great for the money, tend to have exaggerated specs and don't hold up to real world comparisons. But then for many they are at the right price...it just all depends on what one wants to spend.

Indeed. Generally LCD's, though great for the money, tend to have exaggerated specs and don't hold up to real world comparisons. But then for many they are at the right price...it just all depends on what one wants to spend.


Agreed Jason, But if you only have a $3000 budget, then don't bother demoing the cheaper DLPs and 3LCDs side by side with the new DILA JVCs, because you will be highly dissapointed. I would have much rather saved the extra $2500 to pay off some of my theater construction debt, but I know that after seeing the JVC in action, eveything else under $6000 paled in comparison. This is coming from a projector newb who has no preference or allegiance whatsover to either technologies. I actually used to be a big RPTV DLP fan for years, and never suffered or noticed RBE issues. So DLP would have been a good option to me as well, but DILA still beat it and 3LCD by a mile. I just knew that I had to buy the RS20 even if I had to eat ram'n'noodles and bread sandwiches for the next 6-12 months. :D

Disclaimer: I have a 100% lighting controlled theater with flat black ceiling, and red/black fabric walls, my RS20 will be used 70% of the time for watching movies in dark/batcave setting, 20% for gaming, and only 10% for watching HDTV.

... He doesnt seem very credible to me cause he says hw10 has better blacks than 6500ub (first time I hear that)...I am not sure how you can question the credibility of someone who has seen the HW10 and 1080UB when you have seen neither.:eek: The reality is that the current crop of MY 2009 pjs are all very close. I recently compared the HW10, 6500UB, and FPJ1(RS2). I would also rate the HW10 over the 6500UB. I bought the FPJ1 only because the closeout pricing made the cost similar to the HW10.

In comparing scenes from The Dark Knight, there were clearly a few scenes (dark) where the FPJ1 was better but there was also a few bright scenes where I thought the HW10 was slightly better!

I suspect that someone else with a different set of criteria may have a different ordering. For example if I was primarily going to watch TV/Sports and did not have a bat cave I might have chosen the 6500UB.

The choice is not as clear cut as you seem to think it is.

I have been doing a side by side with the W5000 and the RS1 as of last night...The W20000 has a bit better blacks, but not as good as the RS1 so I would say the comparisons are similar.

I noticed that there are times when the RS1 definitely has the advantage in 'POP' over the DLP thanks to the better native on/off. There are other times when the advantage goes to the DLP (in brighter scenes depending on the content). I would actually call it a 'draw' for pop by the law of averages. This surprised me actually.

As for blur, I ran some sequences which I considered to be a 'torture test' for blur that I used in extensive testing with flat panel LCD, I am pleased to say that if the blur is there, it is not detectable to my critical eye in any of my tests...the RS1 does *FAR* better than FP LCD counterparts and IMO it is a non-issue. If there is a difference with the W5000, I couldn't see it.

Colour accuracy under factory conditions definitely went to the RS1...colour tracking in dark areas isn't as good under these conditions. I will have to calibrate first to compare the colour.

Calibrating for brightness and contrast...the RS1 is FAR brighter than the W5000 while maintaining a better black. This makes a big difference depending on content.

Its a bit of a mixed bag so far, but I would lean toward the RS1 so far...which also surprised me.

I will post a full comparison in a separate thread when I have more tests completed and more time on my hands.

Good stuff Mike! The W20K will perform better in On/Off and ANSI than the W5K closing the gap in black level/pop even more. Owning both, I was surprised to see the 20K make as much improvement as it did. Black level is also very dependent on that manual iris setting. I'm not sure most people realize this, and reviewers tend to leave the iris halfway open to all of the way open methinks. Clamped down (with DI still engaged), blacks on the W5K can be measured very close to that of the RS1. I will admit that top end brightness will definitely be greater on the RS1 in that situation. But assuming better contrast with the 20K, it would seem the difference starts to become minimal between those two.

By color accuracy I was referring to the fully working CMS on the 20K allowing you to lock them in reliably. That can't be said of the JVC's.

For non-critical daytime/lights on viewing a combination of the CMS and Brilliant Color would yield lumens that the JVC line cannot touch (nearly double!). Light controlled best modes, yes, the JVC wins out.

I agree - the W20000 is a darn nice machine. And has many nice performance features (especially sharpness/ANSI/motion handling) that I wish were incorporated into the HD350/HD750. But the W20000 has two HUGE show stopping strikes against it for my needs.


RBE
Ultra short throw (1.2 zoom ratio)


(I also prefer NO dynamic iris, a quieter projector and higher native On/Off)


Fair enough, those are the weak spots of DLP. I'm just glad the BenQ has vertical lens shift, it eases placement concerns somewhat.

Maybe some day a machine will be manufactured combining the best features of DLP and the best features of DILA (I initially was hoping the HD750 would be just such a machine - but sadly it's not).

Very much agreed. Let's hope it hits the <$10K market as well :p

Agreed Jason, But if you only have a $3000 budget, then don't bother demoing the cheaper DLPs and 3LCDs side by side with the new DILA JVCs, because you will be highly dissapointed. I would have much rather saved the extra $2500 to pay off some of my theater construction debt, but I know that after seeing the JVC in action, eveything else under $6000 paled in comparison.

While I agree the RS20 is impressive, I don't necessarily agree that someone with a $3000 budget is going to be highly disappointed after seeing it side by side with the Epson 6500UB. We did exactly that, in a split screen fashion, and the Epson held up remarkably well. Considering it's $2800 (after rebate), that's a hell of a deal. Nothing to be disappointed about at all.

I'm just glad the BenQ has vertical lens shift, it eases placement concerns somewhat.


Yes. This was a HUGE addition. (and would have been another show stopper for my list had it not been added)

While I agree the RS20 is impressive, I don't necessarily agree that someone with a $3000 budget is going to be highly disappointed after seeing it side by side with the Epson 6500UB. We did exactly that, in a split screen fashion, and the Epson held up remarkably well. Considering it's $2800 (after rebate), that's a hell of a deal. Nothing to be disappointed about at all.

I wish I was able to come up to the same conclusion, but I did not. That's why PJ opinions, including mine, are subjective and should be taken a big grain of salt, but that doesn't mean they are irrelevant or not helpful. Don't trust anyone else's opinion but your own eyes. Go out and demo them side by side, if in anyway possible.

lyndonlim,

I see you are at it again... Nice work! Anyway, we get it, you like DILA... More threads than I can possibly count already exist, discussing and debating the strengths and weaknesses of these 2 display technologies. I don't see the need to start a new thread every week about the same darn thing.:rolleyes:

THE SEARCH FUNCTION IS YOUR FRIEND...

Clamped down (with DI still engaged), blacks on the W5K can be measured very close to that of the RS1. I will admit that top end brightness will definitely be greater on the RS1 in that situation.

I noticed this also...except when the DI opens up occasionally on mostly dark scenes (with a small bright area)...then the RS1 blows the W5000 (and I suspect the W20000) away even when the manual iris is set to zero....in fact I find this...and the fact that BenQ's DI algorithm will occasionally crush bright areas...the most significant minus for the BenQ performance. The W5000 with DI off has *significantly* inferior blacks, BTW.

I have a 106" screen 15' feet away from the PJ, at that distance the w5000 is too dim with the manual iris set at zero. You need the MI set to at least 3-6...even then you don't get close to the RS1 for brightness, and you have also significantly raised the black level.

Never mind that I could slap an ND filter on the RS1...get even lower black floor on the RS1 and still have better brightness compared to the W5000 in what I would consider the best mode for my HT.

But assuming better contrast with the 20K, it would seem the difference starts to become minimal between those two.

I think the W20000 is brighter with a similar black floor to the W5000...so you are probably right about this. The W20000, though, is not in my price range.

For non-critical daytime/lights on viewing a combination of the CMS and Brilliant Color would yield lumens that the JVC line cannot touch (nearly double!).

But then there goes that colour accuracy. I find the W5000 BC mode with its yellow cast and noise issues pretty well useless (even with FW 2.01). The brightness is great...but it means too much compromise for me.

Its also good to remember that whatever you do to increase the brightness on the W5000/W20000, you do at the expense of black level. The W5000 with iris set at 19 (wide open) can almost match the JVC for brightness, but then the JVC destroys it for blacks....which are maintained to my eye even with the lamp on high with the JVC.

Light controlled best modes, yes, the JVC wins out.

That is my typical viewing...and the JVC brightness wins out by a significant margin over the W5000 under these conditions. More, the JVC is bright enough in best mode to allow some ambient light where my BenQ is definitely to dim for that in its best mode.

The interesting part here is that the JVC...now 2+years old still competes (and in some areas surpasses) brand new PJs from BenQ. As an example, I watched 2 space scenes from Wall-e on both PJs last night. I thought these scenes looked excellent on the BenQ with iris set to zero to maximize contrast...then I watched them on the RS1...WOW. Higher on/off with *NO DI* is definitely a big advantage in this kind of space scene.

I havn't thrown in the towel with my BenQ yet (it was still a good $700 CAD cheaper than my *used* RS1 because I got an excellent deal on the W5000). I will fiddle more and see what I can do with it before I decide to sell/return it.

The RS1 definitely has some some staying power in the market. It will be a viable HT project for at least a few more years. I think we are at the point of diminishing returns. All of the advancements seem to incremental at this point with things like the viewing environment playing a larger role in the enjoyment of the projector.

I think the W20000 is brighter with a similar black floor to the W5000...so you are probably right about this. The W20000, though, is not in my price range.

Well, my original point was that the W20K competes very well against the HD350. The RS1 and W5K gap would indeed be wider, as the price also suggests. What do NEW RS1's even run nowadays? I would imagine a used W5K would be about 40% cheaper than a used RS1 at the least.

But then there goes that colour accuracy. I find the W5000 BC mode with its yellow cast and noise issues pretty well useless (even with FW 2.01). The brightness is great...but it means too much compromise for me.

This is why I mentioned non-critical/daytime lights on viewing. In that situation blacks are not important, and a CMS will correct a lot of the color issues that BC introduces, though not all- but being a non-critical viewing situation, this is minor. You just want lumens in this case, and the BenQ throws out a crazy amount. I personally don't use this, but I know many people do some lights on / window blinds open viewing at times. By the way, getting used to a tweaked BC just takes time. Kinda like how oversaturated RS1 colors aren't so bad over time. It feels natural the more exclusively you see it.

I havn't thrown in the towel with my BenQ yet (it was still a good $700 CAD cheaper than my *used* RS1 because I got an excellent deal on the W5000). I will fiddle more and see what I can do with it before I decide to sell/return it.

I paid less than $2.5K USD for a lightly used W20000, and refurbs have been going for $1.9K so all being said, it gives the JVC's quite a run for their money.

We understand lyndonlim. You won't find peace until you have bought a DILA.

We understand lyndonlim. You won't find peace until you have bought a DILA.

What cracks me up is that he's worshiping DILA as the ONLY option for FP ... and goes and buys SXRD.

:p

What cracks me up is that he's worshiping DILA as the ONLY option for FP ... and goes and buys SXRD.

:p

They are both the same technology - LCOS. Sony calls it SXRD, JVC calls it DILA.

They are both the same technology - LCOS. Sony calls it SXRD, JVC calls it DILA.

Thanks chief, but apparently you aren't paying attention. :rolleyes: He's claiming DILA's specific superiority over everything else, including (and especially) SXRD.

Both being based on LCoS doesn't mean they are the same thing with a different name. Far from it.

Russ, what is your opinion on the DILA since you calibrated so many at CLEF Hi-Fi? Close to CRT blacks ? or not quite yet?

hey there Lyndon,

The new crop of JVC's have their strength's but emulation of black isn't one of them unfortunately. By black I mean the COMPLETE absense of light when called upon, which is typically during your intra-scene fades. It is very alluring when that happens correctly. It's like coming to the end of a chapter in a good book and you have to pause briefly to turn the page to continue. Film editors use these full fades to black to enhance their story telling, but when you see a grey screen in front of you instead of what was intended it takes you out of the film immediately.

There is still currently only one technology able to do that, and I suspect that will still be the only one for a few years to come yet.

On the merits though, those HD350/750's are nice and bright and have the benefits of an easy physical setup, typical of most current digitals. They exhibit your typical digital sharpness look which a lot of folks seem to enjoy. With a fair bit of effort the 350's can have their colour's adjusted to a level acceptable to 95% of anticipated buyers, albeit a little saturated on the primaries still. With a lot of effort the 750's can get very close to ideal colour representation.

As you have noticed, the current crop of projectors have advanced considerably from your Piano days. You have to decide what your criteria is when looking for a model. If absolute black levels is still your holy grail then you have to move along another path and all the implications that bring forth !

Cheers,

Russ

Thanks chief, but apparently you aren't paying attention. :rolleyes: He's claiming DILA's specific superiority over everything else, including (and especially) SXRD.

I think he's just winding us all up but if he really thinks this way then he should just buy one (DILA) or better still buy the right model SXRD.

I think he's just winding us all up but if he really thinks this way then he should just buy one (DILA) or better still buy the right model SXRD.

Well, it makes me wonder how DILA can be worthy of this new title it's been crowned, if it's crowner doesn't deem it worth spending his own cash on :D

I paid less than $2.5K USD for a lightly used W20000, and refurbs have been going for $1.9K so all being said, it gives the JVC's quite a run for their money.

Wow...thats a good deal. My W5K at 1.7K USD isn't looking so hot anymore....although thats brand new with a 2 year warranty.

That said, the decision will ultimately come down to the preferences of the viewer...with even the older RS1 coming ahead in some important categories over the W20K and trailing behind in others.

My point is I can definitely see why people might choose higher on/off native VS DI and lower on/off DLP. I need to do more testing, but in some scenes the JVC RS1 wins hands down and its not even close. I still need to do some digging to see under which conditions I prefer the Benq.

Watching these puppies side by side has caused me to question my (initially positive) feelings about dynamic iris technology.

Wow...thats a good deal. My W5K at 1.7K USD isn't looking so hot anymore....although thats brand new with a 2 year warranty.

That said, the decision will ultimately come down to the preferences of the viewer...with even the older RS1 coming ahead in some important categories over the W20K and trailing behind in others.

My point is I can definitely see why people might choose higher on/off native VS DI and lower on/off DLP. I need to do more testing, but in some scenes the JVC RS1 wins hands down and its not even close. I still need to do some digging to see under which conditions I prefer the Benq.

Watching these puppies side by side has caused me to question my (initially positive) feelings about dynamic iris technology.

Makes sense. Definitely keep us posted.

Dollar for dollar I think both DILA & DLP are neck and neck in many situations with personal preference winning out.

As it should be. :)

[QUOTE=benny;15864689]hey there Lyndon,

The new crop of JVC's have their strength's but emulation of black isn't one of them unfortunately. By black I mean the COMPLETE absense of light when called upon, which is typically during your intra-scene fades. It is very alluring when that happens correctly. It's like coming to the end of a chapter in a good book and you have to pause briefly to turn the page to continue. Film editors use these full fades to black to enhance their story telling, but when you see a grey screen in front of you instead of what was intended it takes you out of the film immediately.


Alright, The Russ (Benny) has spoken. We can kill of this thread now. We are not there yet. I'll stick to my humble HW10 for another 2.5 years.

Benny, totally agree with you about the satisfaction thing with intra-scene fades being done with the abscence of any light.

Guys, close this thread off.

hey there Lyndon,

The new crop of JVC's have their strength's but emulation of black isn't one of them unfortunately. By black I mean the COMPLETE absense of light when called upon, which is typically during your intra-scene fades. It is very alluring when that happens correctly. It's like coming to the end of a chapter in a good book and you have to pause briefly to turn the page to continue. Film editors use these full fades to black to enhance their story telling, but when you see a grey screen in front of you instead of what was intended it takes you out of the film immediately.


Alright, The Russ (Benny) has spoken. We can kill of this thread now. We are not there yet. I'll stick to my humble HW10 for another 2.5 years.

Benny, totally agree with you about the satisfaction thing with intra-scene fades being done with the abscence of any light.

Guys, close this thread off.

I don't know that I'd go so far as to place THAT much importance on absolute (lack of light) blacks. While it is a nice effect, how many theaters have you seen that faded to black? They have dimmed lighting anyway, which kills that effect- and that's the intended venue for delivery of a filmmaker's story!

We're getting close to the point where room adjustments can be made that will help perceived contrast and black levels more than the difference between different tech FP devices.

Another way to say that, is for all of the back and forth we do over black levels and contrast between projectors, a very small portion of us actually have proper viewing environments to squeeze the most out of what we have.

Film editors use these full fades to black to enhance their story telling, but when you see a grey screen in front of you instead of what was intended it takes you out of the film immediately.

Thats interesting, because film projectors have worse black levels than most of these high end PJs.

I agree that perfect black is the best, though.

If absolute black levels is still your holy grail then you have to move along another path and all the implications that bring forth !

If you are talking about CRT projectors then you have a lot of 'implications that bring forth'.

Indeed you'd be bringing forth implications 'till the cows come home :p

DILA..king of Blacks?

Not any more. The King of blacks would be the SIM2 C3X Lumis Host.

All hail to the King..........

http://www.cepro.com/images/uploads/sim2_c3x.jpg

Bring back the old title!

Indeed. Generally LCD's, though great for the money, tend to have exaggerated specs and don't hold up to real world comparisons. But then for many they are at the right price...it just all depends on what one wants to spend.

Time for JVC to "wise up" and claim incredible specs like the rest.
If every one else has sold their credibility to the devil you either play the game or lose share. Sad.
I saw the light ( or black ;) )

Not any more. The King of blacks would be the SIM2 C3X Lumis Host.

All hail to the King..........

http://www.cepro.com/images/uploads/sim2_c3x.jpg

In about four years. Till then I'm a DILA monster.

Not any more. The King of blacks would be the SIM2 C3X Lumis Host.

All hail to the King..........

http://www.cepro.com/images/uploads/sim2_c3x.jpg
Maybe, if you're fortunate enough to have held onto a pre-production model. :D

Lumis lense T2 and T3 will exceed JVC see 20,000 plus forum

I hate to throw a spanner in the works, but really the room is the king of blacks, as without proper light control and reflection control then even a Lumis will be ****** in the wind in a cream/white walled room. Even my lowly AE3000 has been greatly improved by some attention to the room treatments and exclusion of any ambient light. I can't believe the number of people who talk about buying something like a HD750/RS20 then say they have a white room and like to watch with some lights on. :rolleyes: In fact I've seen a number of room photos on here showing screens jamed up close to a white ceiling, with far better projectors than mine.

I'm having a home demo next week with a HD350 and HD750 against my AE3000. I'm betting that the HD750 won't look any better in my room than the HD350 (except possibly colourwise, but I have a lumagen to sort that side out). I'm hoping that I'll be able to see an improvement from my AE3000, but time will tell. Given that I'm watching in a living room, I think my room treatments are probably as extreme as many would be willing to go without having a dedicated room, so I wonder whether I'll see what could be the limit for non dedicated rooms?

I hate to throw a spanner in the works, but really the room is the king of blacks, as without proper light control and reflection control then even a Lumis will be ****** in the wind in a cream/white walled room. Even my lowly AE3000 has been greatly improved by some attention to the room treatments and exclusion of any ambient light. I can't believe the number of people who talk about buying something like a HD750/RS20 then say they have a white room and like to watch with some lights on. :rolleyes: In fact I've seen a number of room photos on here showing screens jamed up close to a white ceiling, with far better projectors than mine.

I'm having a home demo next week with a HD350 and HD750 against my AE3000. I'm betting that the HD750 won't look any better in my room than the HD350 (except possibly colourwise, but I have a lumagen to sort that side out). I'm hoping that I'll be able to see an improvement from my AE3000, but time will tell. Given that I'm watching in a living room, I think my room treatments are probably as extreme as many would be willing to go without having a dedicated room, so I wonder whether I'll see what could be the limit for non dedicated rooms?

Interesting, what treatments Kevin? When we move (apartment) in a few months i'll be doing some not to extreme treatments like darker shades of non reflective paint ect, it must be wife friendly !!
I was under the impression that a white ceiling was not bad unless all walls were white?
Sorry for the OT.

Interesting, what treatments Kevin? When we move (apartment) in a few months i'll be doing some not to extreme treatments like darker shades of non reflective paint ect, it must be wife friendly !!
I was under the impression that a white ceiling was not bad unless all walls were white?
Sorry for the OT.

A white ceiling is bad regardless of the colour of the side walls, IMHO. Any surface close to the screen that reflects light back to it will wash out the image, it doesn't matter if it comes from above, below or the sides.

I made a number of small improvements that together have improved the image and it's perception in my living room. Previously it was cream, with a white ceiling, before I remodelled it last year: I painted the screen wall dark brown (black being too extreme for my better half :) ), which helps cut any light spill from around the image (still the case even with my AE3000 BTW). I added some self adhesive velvet material backed with thin hardboard (don't know what you guys call this in the US, but it's only about 2 or 3 mm thick, but not MDF). This velvet panel is attached to the bottom bar of my 2.35:1 screen as for some strange reason they saw fit to paint it white :rolleyes: and it got lit up by the lower 'black' bar, when watching 2.35:1 films. This helps make the image appear to 'float' in a pool of black. So these mods were more for image perception, than actual contrast improvements.

To counter the white ceiling and (still) fairly light coloured side walls I created a 'tent' setup that comes out about 2 metres and hangs a large piece of black cloth across the top and sides. This drastically cuts the worst reflections and removes the washed out effect I get without the 'tent'. As there is a second light cream leather sofa at right angles to the screen, I put a dark coloured 'throw' over it. Finally I have a spare length of black velvet that I lay across the floor under the screen (not shown in the photos, but you get the idea), further back there is a fairly dark rug that I hope to replace with a larger darker one to do the same job as the velvet.

This setup takes about 10 minutes to put up, though the 'tent' is in a Mark II version and I'm still working on a better way to attach it to the tent 'poles', to make it quicker to setup. It makes the room look pretty awful, hence why I say it's about as extreme as you could reasonably go in a living room, but when taken down the room looks 'normal'. There are some members over on the UK forum that have literally covered their ceilings and side walls with black velvet panels, but I think that is the exception and most wives/GFs probably wouldn't go for that kind of permanent redecoration. :)

My point previously was that while you can throw money at ever more expensive projectors compared to more run of the mill models like my AE3000, but if you don't make some effort with the room, then it's never going to give these deep blacks we all seem to want. My AE3000 is now giving the best image I've seen in my house with these treatments.

Photos show the latest tent (plan to replace the broom handles with small hooks in the side walls and straps to support the pole ends :o), the velvet lower panel during installation (great for 'catching' subtitles on even though it's black :cool:) and a picture of the room in daytime to show the two extremes.

Sorry for the OT, but rover2002 did ask. :o

Yup - I agree. If I didn't have a bat-cave - I wouldn't have bought the RS20. The RS1 would have been more than enough machine (contrast wise). In fact I would probably still have my Panny w/ 800:1 On/Off if I still had white walls. The washout you get w/ white walls is unbelievable. Destroys your real (and perceived) image (IMHO).

Thanks Kevin, that really is a night and day between set up and stowed away.

*Yawn*

I have a BenQ W20000 and it beats the HD350 in sharpness, color accuracy, ANSI contrast, shadow detail, brightness, and motion (no blur!).

Oh, for nearly half the cost.

Since this thread's a joke anyway, how about that DLP thing ... the Snap, Crackle, and POP that DILA will never have? :D

You can have your marginally better black (which is a moot point if you don't have a fully light controlled setup anyway).

I don't even want to think what the W20K does to your SONY HW10.

Not suitable for children, methinks.


Wow, we're really into some woppers now...a W20000 for HALF the cost of an RS10 (Be sure you didn't get the model that says "Non-working unit: For display purposes only.")

Speaking of moot points, how about the effect of your DLPs marginally better ANSI contrast ratio, especially in a less than fully light controlled room, as you stated.

Ah yes, the Snap, Crackle, Pop (and Rainbows) that NO other technology will ever have.

Just in case you want to counter against my technology....I don't have any.

Wow, we're really into some woppers now...a W20000 for HALF the cost of an RS10 (Be sure you didn't get the model that says "Non-working unit: For display purposes only.")

Speaking of moot points, how about the effect of your DLPs marginally better ANSI contrast ratio, especially in a less than fully light controlled room, as you stated.

Ah yes, the Snap, Crackle, Pop (and Rainbows) that NO other technology will ever have.

Just in case you want to counter against my technology....I don't have any.

Um, it's common knowledge that BenQ let go of some W20K's for $1900. I paid less than $2.5K shipped for a lightly used one. This has already been posted in this thread. Learn to read, yes, and take this "wopper" and shove it.

Yes, ANSI is marginally better on DLP, and On/Off is marginally better on LCoS without light control. Thanks for re-iterating my point.

I have never seen a rainbow. Sorry. :) Is that my fault?

And ... congrats on your lack of technology. You're a real winner!?

totally agreed for JVC hd 10k with dvdo vp50 thx pro.It's very deeper black than the former pj.