I know at least a few people around here have been waiting for this...so here it goes: As some of you know I have purchased a new W5000...which I can still return...and I have purchased a used (306h) JVC DLA-RS1 from a member of AVS. The RS1 is in excellent condition and from what I have read is performing similarly to a new unit. I intend to either return the W5000 or re-sell the RS1 depending on the outcome of this shootout.

Setup:
106" DIY gray screen ~15' from the shelf-mounted projectors.
Light controlled room with light coloured ceilings and walls
HTPC with blu-ray connected via HDMI
SA8300HD PVR connected via HDMI
(I'll leave out the sound, etc)

Initially I have calibrated the PJs by 'eye' for contrast and brightness using test patterns...I have not yet dialed in the colour controls so they remain at their factory defaults.

I welcome comments and suggestions...but I do have limited time....and one of these PJs has to be turned over soon as i can't afford to keep them both.

Initial notes:
-I have been wondering about the HDMI 'expanded mode' when connecting via my HTPC and whether I should calibrate for 16-235 or 0-255 when using power DVD for BD playback. IOW, should I set the PJ to crush 0-16 to black and 235-255 to white? Or should I calibrate to reproduce the full range 0-255? If someone can chime in here and let me know how this works I would appreciate it...otherwise for now I will simply calibrate for the full range 0-255.

Initial impressions W5000:

pros:
-relatively inexpensive
-very good black levels with iris set from 0-3 and DI ON
-extensive colour/calibration controls, gamma adjustment, etc
-Excellent sharpness, ANSI contrast ('pop') great in bright scenes. Color saturation is excellent.
-anamorphic lens support (non issue for me)
-excellent remote control layout
-excellent sharpness
-bright with iris wide open (19)
-support for PC resolutions.
-very quiet fan in eco mode...not much louder in full mode.

cons:
-DI algorithm occasionally distracting, crushes bright areas, opens up on mostly dark scenes with small bright areas.
-Black level with DI open is not so good, even with manual iris closed down.
-Best black levels are excellent under the right conditions, but iris needs to be clamped down to get them and you get loss of brightness. Highest contrast available is when MI is set to 0, but then the PJ is quite dim.
-out of the box color leans to blue....especially at low IRE (easily fixed with calibration controls)
-image noise relatively high on lower quality sources...even with brilliant colour off
-BC mode is very bright...but has a yellow cast and emphasizes noise.


Initial impressions: DLA-RS1:

pros:
-excellent blacks, regardless of content on the screen (ie no DI issues)
-much brighter than the W5000 while maintaining the deep black.
-Dark scenes have excellent contrast and 'pop'.
-No detectable motion blur in my testing...seems to equal the W5000 for sharpness
-out of the box colour is nearly spot on to my eye.
-horizontal as well as vertical lens shift
-lots of zoom if placement is an issue (it isn't for me)
-does a great job at masking noise in low quality video.

cons:
-limited colour controls (although it seems to me that they are not needed as much)
-colours can seem a bit too saturated in some scenes
-while it seems to beat the W5000 for in-scene contrast most of the time, the W5000 occasionally has more pop in bright scenes.
-fan in high mode is much noisier than the w5000. Eco mode is quiet though.
-hdmi connectors are too close together...dongles will block the use of the other port.
-menu layout and remote control are clunky to navigate....it seems to 'forget' some menu settings on power cycle (I am looking into this)
-no support for some common PC resolutions....an achilles heel for a gaming PJ (not really an issue for me)

I imagine many of you looking at DLP vs. LCOS won't be too surprised by the above.

I was happily surprised that the motion blur issue...to my eye and my 'torture test' videos...was a non issue on the JVC...it looked every bit as sharp as the W5000 (which I would characterize as having excellent sharpness). This is coming from someone who returned no less than 4 LCD flat panels before settling with kuro plasma because of the blur issues. I am quite sensitive to it.

As a general comment I would say that most of the time when movie watching the RS1 definitely wins for the 'pop and wow' category. Ocasionally, however, especially when the image is dominated by bright highlights, the W5000 does a bit better for bringing out the detail and contrast. Space/dark scenes are simply incredible on the RS1 and they definitely come up short on the W5000 by a wide margin.

In equal brightness settings (the MI on the W5000 set to 19), bright scenes are generally dead even compared to the RS1...though I would favor the W5000 for better pop on occasion. However, blacks are significantly compromised in the dark scenes with these settings.

So far I would give the crown to the RS1...but I will do some further tests and side by sides before making my final decision. I will try to take some comparison shots as well.

Initial notes:
-I have been wondering about the HDMI 'expanded mode' when connecting via my HTPC and whether I should calibrate for 16-235 or 0-255 when using power DVD for BD playback. IOW, should I set the PJ to crush 0-16 to black and 235-255 to white? Or should I calibrate to reproduce the full range 0-255? If someone can chime in here and let me know how this works I would appreciate it...otherwise for now I will simply calibrate for the full range 0-255.

Unfortunately there's not a simple answer to that, basically you just have to fire up some test patterns and make sure brightness/contrast are set correctly.

Initial impressions W5000:

pros:
-relatively inexpensive
-very good black levels with iris set from 0-3 and DI ON
-extensive colour/calibration controls, gamma adjustment, etc
-Excellent sharpness, ANSI contrast ('pop') great in bright scenes. Color saturation is excellent.
-anamorphic lens support (non issue for me)
-excellent remote control layout
-excellent sharpness
-bright with iris wide open (19)
-support for PC resolutions.
-very quiet fan in eco mode...not much louder in full mode.

cons:
-DI algorithm occasionally distracting, crushes bright areas, opens up on mostly dark scenes with small bright areas.
-Black level with DI open is not so good, even with manual iris closed down.
-Best black levels are excellent under the right conditions, but iris needs to be clamped down to get them and you get loss of brightness. Highest contrast available is when MI is set to 0, but then the PJ is quite dim.
-out of the box color leans to blue....especially at low IRE (easily fixed with calibration controls)
-image noise relatively high on lower quality sources...even with brilliant colour off
-BC mode is very bright...but has a yellow cast and emphasizes noise.

I concur largely with those comments, though I'd put the DI as "rarely noticeable" than "occasionally distracting". I'm also kind of surprised you consider it dim with the iris at 0. I've got near 1000 hours on my W5000 and still run it at IRIS 0 on my 110" wide 2.35:1 screen (1.16 gain) and it seems plenty bright.


Initial impressions: DLA-RS1:

pros:
-excellent blacks, regardless of content on the screen (ie no DI issues)
-much brighter than the W5000 while maintaining the deep black.
-Dark scenes have excellent contrast and 'pop'.
-No detectable motion blur in my testing...seems to equal the W5000 for sharpness
-out of the box colour is nearly spot on to my eye.
-horizontal as well as vertical lens shift
-lots of zoom if placement is an issue (it isn't for me)
-does a great job at masking noise in low quality video.

cons:
-limited colour controls (although it seems to me that they are not needed as much)
-colours can seem a bit too saturated in some scenes
-while it seems to beat the W5000 for in-scene contrast most of the time, the W5000 occasionally has more pop in bright scenes.
-fan in high mode is much noisier than the w5000. Eco mode is quiet though.
-hdmi connectors are too close together...dongles will block the use of the other port.
-menu layout and remote control are clunky to navigate....it seems to 'forget' some menu settings on power cycle (I am looking into this)
-no support for some common PC resolutions....an achilles heel for a gaming PJ (not really an issue for me)

I imagine many of you looking at DLP vs. LCOS won't be too surprised by the above.

You've actually got really good timing with this, I've been pondering my options. I'm debating replacing my W5000, and the JVCs always appear in my list to consider. But the intrascene contrast, blur and sharpness always give me pause when thinking about anything but DLP.

That plus the reported crazy deals on the the Pioneer FPJ1, have me again rather seriously considering DiLA again....

I was happily surprised that the motion blur issue...to my eye and my 'torture test' videos...was a non issue on the JVC...it looked every bit as sharp as the W5000 (which I would characterize as having excellent sharpness). This is coming from someone who returned no less than 4 LCD flat panels before settling with kuro plasma because of the blur issues. I am quite sensitive to it.

I may have to investigate the FPJ1 again, more seriously this time....

As a general comment I would say that most of the time when movie watching the RS1 definitely wins for the 'pop and wow' category. Ocasionally, however, especially when the image is dominated by bright highlights, the W5000 does a bit better for bringing out the detail and contrast. Space/dark scenes are simply incredible on the RS1 and they definitely come up short on the W5000 by a wide margin.

Cool, have you tried any gaming on the JVC?

In equal brightness settings (the MI on the W5000 set to 19), bright scenes are generally dead even compared to the RS1...though I would favor the W5000 for better pop on occasion. However, blacks are significantly compromised in the dark scenes with these settings.

That actually kind of surprised me, I figure the W5000 would be clearly brighter, at least with the iris part to all the way open.

RS1 is an excellent machine (a real workhorse too). I would never had sold mine except for the following:
Bright corners
Light spill (all 4 sides)
Never could get the colors to look "right"
Shading was just barely acceptable

However (I agree) RS1 was sure excellent at:
Masking noise in low quality video

RS1 is an excellent machine (a real workhorse too). I would never had sold mine except for the following:
Bright corners
Light spill (all 4 sides)
Never could get the colors to look "right"
Shading was just barely acceptable

However (I agree) RS1 was sure excellent at:
Masking noise in low quality video

You mean masking detail in high quality video? :D

Well - you certainly could be right about that! Panny's are great at masking noise too (via smoothscreen).

Bright corners

Actually I did notice on 0 IRE that there was some slight non-uniformity in the corners...never noticed it except on a full dark field. I don't consider it much of an issue, especially since the W5000 also has non-uniformity at 0 IRE with DI clamped down...its darker on the left compared to the right thanks to the shape of the iris.

Light spill (all 4 sides)
Never could get the colors to look "right"
Shading was just barely acceptable

As far as I can tell there is no light spill on my unit. The colours are accurate to my eye, but a bit oversaturated depending on the scene. I can't really comment as I havn't had a chance to fiddle with the color controls much. I watched spiderman 3 for ~10mins. The colors looked perfect to my eye.

I've got friends coming over tomorrow who also have HTs and have seen (and admired) my W5000. I will get some additional comments from them on this.

Unfortunately there's not a simple answer to that, basically you just have to fire up some test patterns and make sure brightness/contrast are set correctly.

I need some test patterns on a blu-ray disc. The ones I use from 'Calman' go from 0-255. I don't know if the blu-ray discs only use 16-235....or if the program/video drivers convert the 16-235 to 0-255.

I concur largely with those comments, though I'd put the DI as "rarely noticeable" than "occasionally distracting".

I thought so too...then I played back a movie side by side with the JVC and started noticing it alot more.

I'm also kind of surprised you consider it dim with the iris at 0. I've got near 1000 hours on my W5000 and still run it at IRIS 0 on my 110" wide 2.35:1 screen (1.16 gain) and it seems plenty bright.

I use a flat gray painted screen...probably low gain. Still...apples to apples the JVC is blindingly bright next to the W5000 at iris 0, all the while with a black floor that is just a little deeper as well.

Cool, have you tried any gaming on the JVC?

No...but I will try some and let you know.

That actually kind of surprised me, I figure the W5000 would be clearly brighter, at least with the iris part to all the way open.

They are pretty well par at iris 19 with the JVC lamp in ECO mode. JVC is even a good deal brighter in normal lamp. The benQ can go brighter in dynamic mode with BC on, but I don't like that mode.

The benQ can go brighter in dynamic mode
with BC on, but I don't like that mode.

Any mode with BC on should be brighter than the JVC, not just dynamic.

Any mode with BC on should be brighter than the JVC, not just dynamic.

I havn't tried that with low manual iris...since you can get a lot of lumens just by opening up to 19...without all the PQ issues of BC. I believe that BC mode is pretty well useless anyway as the PQ deteriorates significantly in that mode...even to the untrained eye of family and friends who are watching.

As a comparison I tried HD hockey with BC mode. The ice had yellow patches and the video noise was horrible compared to turning it off. I much prefer to leave the iris at 19 in the various modes to get the necesarry brightness and just dim the lights a little.

IOW, should I set the PJ to crush 0-16 to black and 235-255 to white? Or should I calibrate to reproduce the full range 0-255? If someone can chime in here and let me know how this works I would appreciate it...otherwise for now I will simply calibrate for the full range 0-255.There is some debate about above 235, but I think pretty much everybody is in agreement that for video level 16 (video black) the projector should either be putting out its minimum amount of light or close to it for the current mode, after calibration. So, if you have a test disc with bars for things like 15, 16, 17, ..., on a 0 background then level 16 should be as dark as the background or close to it (like maybe 15 is the same as the background and 16 is close). For the DLP you could look up close to the screen and see if you see dithering (looks like a bunch of ants running around). In general you shouldn't see this dithering on level 16 areas in test patterns or the black bars of most 2.35:1 movies (which are generally encoded at level 16) when looking up close to the screen, although I know in the past that Joe Kane would raise the Brightness setting up one click from that point.

--Darin

How many hours did you have on the benq already? This is the first time I heard jvc is brighter then it.

I think from what it sounds like jvc suits you better. I only viewed it in the demo room. Blacks were great, and for people whose primary concern was blacks like yours is, i think thats the way to go.

I liked the benq over it though because I also liked sharp picture, the color, and brightness in bright scenes. Blacks were the only thing i was not overly excited about, at times they look great with the dynamic iris, but not always great like jvc.

I think it all comes down to what you value most. Sounds like blacks are your main concern, so I think you will be happier with the jvc.

How many hours did you have on the benq already? This is the first time I heard jvc is brighter then it.

I have less than 100 hours on the BenQ. Others have measured light output have also confirmed that the JVC is brighter in 'best mode'. My best mode for the benQ for movie watching has the manual iris set from 0-6 and the DI ON. The BenQ with MI at 19 and low lamp comes just shy of the JVC in low lamp for brightness.

Over at projector reviews using a meter Art measured the following:

W5000:
Low lamp, iris 19: 554 lumens
Low lamp, iris at 2: 379 lumens (I prefer these settings for movies)

JVC:
low lamp: 654 lumens (I prefer this setting for movies)
hi lamp: 773 lumens

In my preferred modes the JVC is almost twice as bright as the W5000. For watching sports where black level is a non issue, I would crank the MI open and get close to par with the Benq.

There is some debate about above 235, but I think pretty much everybody is in agreement that for video level 16

Thanks! Actually I realized that both PJs looked washed out whenever I set lowest black point at 0 instead of 16. I just adjusted the brightness tonight before watching a movie with my kids...it made a HUGE difference in PQ with no visible crushed blacks for the BD disc.

I am not sure if the whites are getting crushed if I set the contrast to crush whites over 235. I don't think so....but some of the snow in 'Ice Age' looked awfully close to white crush. I will have to fiddle with it and see if any detail gets revealed with lower contrast.

As far as I can tell there is no light spill on my unit.

All RS1's have light spill (by design) - but it's usually not an issue because the black velvet border around the screen soaks it up. But if you had a 2:35 screen and watched a 1:85 movie on it (w/o masking) the side bars would be extremely illuminated by the light spill.

Hey mike, no offense to art but his light meter output is subjective, i did research on lux readings awhile back, I believe he just used calibration software like a spyder to get light readings. If you read the lux thread created you get different idea's about how light output should be properly measured independently with a recomended device mentioned in that thread (which i cant find right now)

Art also quoted the w20000 as brighter then the w5000 which did not make sense, its same projector, but with dc3 yet he was claiming it was brighter.

For proper light measures art really should get a lux meter like the recomended one on this board.

Keep in mind also the jvc from what I heard dims quite a bit quicker, my w5000 has 1300 on it and still looks bright, and you will find many users as stranger mentioned still not noticing much of a drop. The jvc I see threads all the time about its quick drop in lumens after a few hundred hours, infact i think there might be one on the main page right now.

I had a benq 8700 which had bad bulbs that dropped quite a bit, with bulbs that dim quickly it can ruin a projector experience rather quick.

I need some test patterns on a blu-ray disc. The ones I use from 'Calman' go from 0-255. I don't know if the blu-ray discs only use 16-235....or if the program/video drivers convert the 16-235 to 0-255.

Try the AVS709 disk.

They are pretty well par at iris 19 with the JVC lamp in ECO mode. JVC is even a good deal brighter in normal lamp. The benQ can go brighter in dynamic mode with BC on, but I don't like that mode.

Yeah, logically it makes sense, the BenQ is rated at what, 1000 lumens, 1200, but probably can't get that close in a calibrated mode, but still I wouldn't have expected that.

I havn't tried that with low manual iris...since you can get a lot of lumens just by opening up to 19...without all the PQ issues of BC. I believe that BC mode is pretty well useless anyway as the PQ deteriorates significantly in that mode...even to the untrained eye of family and friends who are watching.

FWIW, you'll get significantly better CR by running BC with the manual iris set to minimum. I forget how much of a boost I got by just closing the iris, but it to was significant.

As a comparison I tried HD hockey with BC mode. The ice had yellow patches and the video noise was horrible compared to turning it off. I much prefer to leave the iris at 19 in the various modes to get the necesarry brightness and just dim the lights a little.

Yeah, it's kind of odd, with the original firmware (1.02) BC didn't throw the colors off a lot, but it really does with 2.01.

If you read the lux thread created you get different idea's about how light output should be properly measured independently with a recomended device mentioned in that thread (which i cant find right now)

Regardless, the RS1 is brighter in best mode...not even close. I have them side by side so its plain as day. I don't want to invest in a meter to prove it. Anyone really interested in getting a number can pick up a meter if they want.


The jvc I see threads all the time about its quick drop in lumens after a few hundred hours, infact i think there might be one on the main page right now.

Potential problems are difficult to take into consideration. Others on the RS1 owners thread have claimed no such problem...maybe a QC issue with some of the bulbs?

All RS1's have light spill (by design)

I will take a look for it and report back.

"Art also quoted the w20000 as brighter then the w5000 which did not make sense, its same projector"

Lamp variability can easily be 20%

No offense but where did you come up with that number.


I did close the iris down all the way on mine, I can see why the rs-1 is brighter, boy was it dim at 0. I dont know many people who run it at 0, most including the isf guys stated they open it up some. I guess its your preference.

The only other Im unsure about is you really thought the jvc was as sharp as the w5000? Its one of the main reasons I chose dlp. Even art stated that the w5000 is noitceably sharper. Again everyones eyes are different, maybe sharpness is not as noitceable to you? Did you watch hockey, or watch any movies with alot of facial detai?

I was just watching body of lies tonight, and alot of the overhead scenes and satellite images were as sharp as a tack on the benq, its one of the top reasons I again chose dlp, because the lcos looked a bit softer. I was just reading kris deerings thread who has a RS2, and he mentioned he noticed the planar dlp which is suppose to be similar to the w20000 was noticeably sharper then his rs2.

Based on all the praise and price disparity pd8150 doesn't sound too much like w20000. Is it? I thought pd8150 has better contrast, better optics, no image noise, more accurate colors, an auto iris being totally "invisible" - although no manual one.

HD-350 Body of Lies little sharpness test HTPC

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t18/hawk-eye1/IMG_2047.jpg

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t18/hawk-eye1/IMG_2048.jpg

No offense but where did you come up with that number.


I did close the iris down all the way on mine, I can see why the rs-1 is brighter, boy was it dim at 0. I dont know many people who run it at 0, most including the isf guys stated they open it up some. I guess its your preference.

The only other Im unsure about is you really thought the jvc was as sharp as the w5000? Its one of the main reasons I chose dlp. Even art stated that the w5000 is noitceably sharper. Again everyones eyes are different, maybe sharpness is not as noitceable to you? Did you watch hockey, or watch any movies with alot of facial detai?

I was just watching body of lies tonight, and alot of the overhead scenes and satellite images were as sharp as a tack on the benq, its one of the top reasons I again chose dlp, because the lcos looked a bit softer. I was just reading kris deerings thread who has a RS2, and he mentioned he noticed the planar dlp which is suppose to be similar to the w20000 was noticeably sharper then his rs2.

That threw me a little too. What sharpness setting were you using on the BenQ Mike? 0 will result in something "blurry", but I'm sure you know/played with that. 5 seems the most accurate on firmware 2.01 for me.

HD-350 Body of Lies little sharpness test HTPC

Looks soft, but that could be attributed to the camera.

Regarding price, the BenQ, if you go to the "Great Found Deal Forums," can be had, refurbished from BenQ, for about half the going rate for a pre-owned RS-1.

I don't want to break the forum rules but for some, the BenQ may be a far better value.

Dino

Based on all the praise and price disparity pd8150 doesn't sound too much like w20000. Is it? I thought pd8150 has better contrast, better optics, no image noise, more accurate colors, an auto iris being totally "invisible" - although no manual one.

I dont know where your info came from. I asked art previously and he said it was a toss up, w20000 was brighter, while planar had a bit better blacks, sharpness, color, and shadow was similar. You pay more because planar is a premium company, stores like costco were carrying benq units, your not going to see planar units being sold except from the company itself and maybe special retailers.

First of all w20000 image noise was fixed, also better color? How is that possible when w20000 has a full CCA. Colors can be dialed in exactly for perfect calibration.

Both are dark chip 3.

Optics are the best thing about the benq unit I found. The auto iris might be the only issue, I know deering said it was noticeable, art didnt notice it, nor did projector central, most people dont, a few do.

I wish i had a camera, because I can say the picture does look a little soft compared to dlp, and what I looked at last night.

Again though pictures dont tell the entire story. But it does look a bit softer, the picture still looks pretty good though.

Heres picture art took for sharpness of the rs-10 and then the w5000.

http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-q1-09/DLA-RS10_dts_logo.jpg

http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-Q1-08/W5000_dts_logo_large.jpg

I did close the iris down all the way on mine, I can see why the rs-1 is brighter, boy was it dim at 0. I dont know many people who run it at 0, most including the isf guys stated they open it up some. I guess its your preference.

The point is to match brightness you have to open it up wide open...which is what art did in his 'best mode' in the review.

The only other Im unsure about is you really thought the jvc was as sharp as the w5000? Its one of the main reasons I chose dlp. Even art stated that the w5000 is noitceably sharper. Again everyones eyes are different, maybe sharpness is not as noitceable to you? Did you watch hockey, or watch any movies with alot of facial detai?

This one is sort of complicated. There are two ways I would like to talk about sharpness. One is the smearing, blur, etc...that is common on many sample and hold displays...IOW, the motion resolution...the other is the pixel-level sharpness (say on a static image).

I have watched several HDTV sources (CSI, hockey, football, etc) and plenty of blu-ray material (long list of movies here for testing). I will say that switching back and forth between the PJs...if their is a difference on either motion resolution or on pixel level sharpness it is very subtle...subtle enough for it to be a non-issue for me. The JVC certainly resolves every line of detail in the 1080p signal coming from my HTPC...so there is no loss of detail per se.

If memory recalls, I set my BenQ on 4 for sharpness. I do remember that if I went one notch higher than that I was getting obvious edge enhancement...4 was like the equivalent of '0' on my plasma. Its true that the '0' setting on the benq was not sharp at all.

Bottom line? The difference is so subtle it comes down to quibbles. No one who watched it tonight felt that the JVC was lacking in the sharpness department at all. Everyone, however, noticed the difference in brightness and black in best modes....and felt this was the most critical difference between the two.

If I get a chance I will try to post some sample images with my DSLR to compare pixel-level sharpness.

Edit: just to add...the convergence on this RS1 is pretty well perfect, which will help the sharpness along compared to the average unit, which might have slight misconvergence.

Heres picture art took for sharpness of the rs-10 and then the w5000.

http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-q1-09/DLA-RS10_dts_logo.jpg

http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-Q1-08/W5000_dts_logo_large.jpg

If you examine those images carefully there are some areas that actually look sharper on the RS10...others look sharper on the W5000. Over all, though, very little to choose between the two in that department. Neither PJ shows any loss of detail.

I would tend to agree from what I have seen.

Looks soft, but that could be attributed to the camera.

As long as the PJ is resolving every pixel of detail in the image then it will be every bit as sharp as the source material.

I, for one, don't like edge enhancement.

Crank up the sharpness on the BenQ and you will see what I mean.

As long as the PJ is resolving every pixel of detail in the image then it will be every bit as sharp as the source material.

I, for one, don't like edge enhancement.

Crank up the sharpness on the BenQ and you will see what I mean.

I agree, nobody said anything about detail, the jvc looks great from pictures for resolving detail, but I think its pretty obvious in the pictures that the jvc has a softer look.

It seems its a non issue for you, nor is it for some. I guess it comes down to preference, softness i see on lcos bothers me, but again it comes down preference, and you dont seem bothered by it, as for detail though both units obviously resolve all details great.

Have you calibrated your w5000 through the cca, colors were the only other thing that bothered me about the jvc since they are off and cant be fixed. Again maybe color is not a big issue for you, it comes down to the user and what you like. Alot of jvc users like the saturated color.

About the iris again i guess it comes down to your preference, I dont know many who run it at 0, as the projector is simply underwhelming that low you get better blacks but as some of the isf guys said in the benq thread, you get better blacks but at a huge cost to the projector, i dont think running it at 0 meets ftl requirement, which I felt really hurts any projector, I cant stand a dim picture. Again it seems blacks are that important to you, a projector like the jvc or 6500ub is a no brainer then. The w2000 helps a bit with blacks but i dont know if it would be enough for you.

Did you watch hockey, or watch any movies with alot of facial detai?

I agree, nobody said anything about detail, the jvc looks great from pictures for resolving detail, but I think its pretty obvious in the pictures that the jvc has a softer look.

Side by side the difference is far from 'obvious'. Its subtle...so subtle that I have to walk right up the screen and look closely at the images....thats with my 20-10 vision. At times it seems as though the JVC looks equally sharp. Everyone else who has come to look at it agrees, BTW.

The same can be said for the comparison shots you posted from Art's review...with the RS10 even looking a little sharper in places. I would challenge anyone to claim that looking at those two shots alone we have a clear advantage in sharpness from one to the other.

Have you calibrated your w5000 through the cca, colors were the only other thing that bothered me about the jvc since they are off and cant be fixed.

I am working on that one on both counts. I am a novice at such things, though. But I have a meter and am plugging away with HFCR.

The w2000 helps a bit with blacks but i dont know if it would be enough for you.

What bothered me more about the BenQ blacks, was the white crush in the DI algorithm (which I noticed more and more and was occasionally very distracting) along with the occasional DI opening up in mostly dark scenes revealing what can only be described as (relatively) terrible native contrast. The W20000 will have better contrast...but still not close natively to the RS1, so I would have similar issues with the DI algorithms on the W20000 as well.

To be fair...I didn't notice it much at first and felt is was not an issue. But after viewing these PJs side by side for a few days I have changed my mind. On average, dark scenes on the RS1 are simply head and shoulders above the W5000.

Of course, everything in this always comes down to personal preference and there is no perfect PJ. All that goes without saying.

That said, I would characterize the differences so far as follows:

The BenQ comes ahead:
Sharpness (very slight)
Colour (biggest advantage)
Bright scene contrast in bright areas (very slight...looks more like differences in gamma)
Quieter (very slight)

The RS1 comes ahead:
-Brightness in best modes (a significant improvement)
-black level in best modes (from significant to slight depending on the image)
-Consistent contrast (no contrast 'pumping', etc) (occasionally makes a big difference)
-dark scene reproduction (an overall significant improvement)
-Video noise is kept to a minimum (can occasionally be very noticeable on the BenQ even with BC off)
-Out of the box colour (for a novice like myself with calibration...but the benQ still wins for calibration)

As for colour...I would say that with the exception of green grass reproduction...the colour on the RS1 is actually quite good with the saturation turned down. So its not like its excellent on the BenQ vs Terrible on the Rs1...its more like Excellent vs. Very good.

The bottom line is this: the advantages of the RS1 are immediately visible to anyone watching while the advantages of the BenQ (save color) are much more subtle and usually amount to only a barely perceptible improvement (say in sharpness, motion resolution, or bright area contrast).

mike,

thanks for the detailed comparison, great stuff. It is refreshing to get real A/B data on these pjs as opposed to the usual 3rd generation opinions, frequently by people who have seen neither machines, that are increasingly floating around AVS.

Yes, thank you for the in-depth shootout.
I am biased... being as I just upgraded an old InFocus 4805 (480p DLP) to the JVC DLA-RS1. The difference to me was literally dumbfounded (I actually thought at first that someone had messed around with my color menus on my DVR before realizing that is the color they are 'supposed' to be.) So I couldn't be happier with my used RS1 purchase.

But everyone is different. I realize that a less expensive PJ that pleases someone else's eyes can make them just as happy. And if someone is not an AVSForum member and sees even the old 4805 I had... they may think it is great- not having anything else to compare it to. As an example, my father-in-law. He thought I was crazy upgrading my projector because he thought the 4805 looked great. But once he actually saw the RS1 in action, he then understood. :)

UPDATE:

Thanks to some tips from some of the posters here I have noticed two more things to put in the 'cons' column for the RS1:

1. light spill: Some very faint light spill does come out around the edges of the 16:9 image. It is so faint that I didn't notice it at first even on a full 0 IRE screen. I would call this one a non issue personally. If you look hard you can see it on a dark field...the other 99.9% of the time it is completely masked whenever other material is on the screen (by ambient cast off from the screen)

2. On gray scale ramps, gray and white fields I noticed a very slight non-uniformity. I tried to point it out to my wife, but she couldn't see it. I never see it on anything but gray ramps/fields. Movie watching it is completly invisible...even on blue sea fields,etc. Again, I feel this is not a significant issue...just as image noise is more present on the Benq...but it is not a significant issue as long as BC is off.

I am having some trouble with my eyeone display 2 and HCFR calibration as the eyeone isn't giving consistent readings. I have to fiddle with it more. I have adjusted the RGB offsets by 'eye', though...with significant improvements in colour and gamma. Planet earth really 'pops' now...especially the satellite images....stunning.

Try running it with the diffuser on, pointed at the projector, maybe pretty close to the projector.

Thanks...I will give that a shot. As it is now I can jack up the green and turn down the other primaries and get almost no change in the grayscale readings...even though its visibly pushing green.

I also get almost identical readings with the BenQ even though the white balance looks very different in default conditions. I know the sensor works...at least it works when stuck onto my LCD monitor.

Make sure you "calibrate" it (by blacking out the sensor) when it says to, when you make the first measurement. And aiming the i1 at the projector without the diffusor makes for totally bogus readings.

Actually I tried that as well and, oddly, it seems to give the most accurate results to my eye.

I tried the contrast measurement. With the diffuser on I got a whopping 47000:1 on/off and ~300:1 for ANSI. The ansi sounds about right, the on/off seems over the top. Without the diffuser I get RGB values that seem to make some sense plus a more reasonable on/off measurement of 6000:1.

When I run the grayscale measure with diffuser or with the screen reflection, it always gives me red near ~300%, blue near 230%, and green near 60%...when I turn the red channel down projecting a very cyan dominated grayscale it still reports red higher than green and blue with very little movement. Is there a setting in HCFR that I have wrong? I have the sensor set to LCD with diffuser.

The sensor works when I use the eye-one software and seems to produce a good grayscale.

Something is definitely wrong with my sensor....or wrong with my method. I always get 380% red, 180% blue, and 5% green on grayscale ramps...PJ or LCD (I had it wrong before)...and this is on fairly well calibrated screens that definitely aren't pushing red and blue. The only time it works seems to be with the eyeone software. Even then it is now telling me that my ICC profile is 'invalid' when I open photoshop.

Don't pick Ambient Light (with diffusor) even if you're using it, I'm pretty sure that's not necessary and might actually do something else (it has been a while since I played with it). All I know is when I tried aiming my i1 at my W5000 without it, I got readings that were clearly bogus, IIRC green was in entirely the wrong place.

Oh and 6000 seems about as much too low as 47,000 is too high.

I can not get good measurements off my screen with an i1 D2. I have a high gain screen and it is just to inconsistent measuring close to the screen and having to tilt it to get out of the probe shadow. I tried using the diffuser pointed at the projector and I get too much red push. My first probe the Spyder2 actually gives me great results pointed at the projector with its diffuser attached. Its actually designed to be used with the diffuser so the grey scale tracks very nicely. I measure close to the projector for a high light level and can measure down to 10IRE and get very good results. I happen to have a good Spyder2 I bought the pro package so I heard they pick the better probes for the more expensive package. I don't know if this is completely true but I know the picture looks great running grey scale with my Spyder2. Actually even the gamut looks the same as what I get with the i1 D2.

Ron

I am...for the moment...putting the calibration to one side and just doing it by eyeball. I am a bit frustrated that my eye-one doesn't seem to be working.

I have spent the past few nights observing the RS1 exclusively instead of the side-by sides. For the last part of my A/B test I am going to switch back to the benQ and make a final decision on how I feel about the PJs. I think its pretty clear by now that I am leaning to the RS1.

I have noticed some faint yellowish areas on white fields on the RS1 (which I referred to as non-uniformity before). I didn't notice it on 'Ice Age', but I did notice it watching hockey last night. I am going to pull the lamp assembly and filter tonight and check for dust and give it a clean to see if it makes a difference.

That banding is fairly common complaint. If you take a look at some early posts in the owners thread it seems most if not all are affected in one way or another. The good news is that it is rarely visible in normal viewing.

Yup the yellow banding was due to shading errors (non-uniformity). The RS10s and RS20 seem to have eliminated this problem.

OK. I pulled the bulb and filter anyway to check for cleaning, etc. Everything looks good.

To be honest, I never would have noticed it had I not been staring at the gray scale steps or gray/white fields over the past few days. It seems to be largely a test pattern phenomenon.

I watched hockey before (with the big white field) and didn't see it. Once I went looking for it after the test patterns I could occasionally find it.

Its very faint, but perceptible on white or gray fields.

I agree that I can't find it even when I am looking for it on 99% of viewing material.

On another note: on the comments of some posters I did another side by side with the BenQ and BC on. I can't get over how much noise there is on the benQ under these conditions...though the brightness is good. The RS1 still takes the prize on that comparison.

Last night I watched some sequences from 'kung Fu Panda'...which to me is reference quality material...on BOTH PJs one after the other.

There is little room for doubt now, the RS-1 isn't just a little better, it simply shines in this comparison. The scenes in the underground prison (mostly dark with red torchlight) were not kind to the W5000 dynamic iris, it pumped frequently and occasionally just destroyed the contrast. It was by far the worst performance of that algorithm I have observed to date (it never bothered me too much before). Even when the iris clamped down, the RS-1 still had visibly better contrast and blacks.

All of the quibbles for the RS1 never once showed up in viewing this film (softness, uniformity, etc). The benQ achilles heel...the low native contrast...popped up often...and when it did it was clearly the inferior projector.

If there was one area where the BenQ wins, though, it is in colour reproduction...which probably comes as a surprise to no-one. The reds look...well...more like they ought to. The blue sky in the opening 'dreamscape' sequence looked a little better on the BenQ as well. As I said before, its not like the JVC colour is not good. It is very good...just not quite as accurate or as well saturated as the BenQ and this was occasionally noticeable. I would still call it a minor quibble with the JVC because it is still very good in this regard. Since I have been unable to dial in either PJ except by eyeball, I would point out that there are times when the colour on the RS1 actually looks a little better than the BenQ despite my best efforts.

Side by side I just keep coming back to JVC and the high native on/off. I think the most telling thing I can say here is this: at the beginning this I felt like the DI on the W5000 was very effective with no real significant drawbacks. Now I don't think I would ever look at another PJ with a dynamic iris unless it had a native contrast that was already competitive with the RS1.

IOW, the RS1 has transformed the way I watch...which is a testament (for me) to the absolutely huge difference native on/off makes. Lower native on/off + DI are certainly no match for higher native on/off.

Summary:

Well, to sum things up this has been an educational experience for me. If you look at some of the details I can sum up by saying this:

The BenQ W5000 is a great DLP DI DC2 PJ (theres a mouthful). It does do a few things a bit better than the RS1...most notably the ability to dial in colour that looks just right. Its biggest advantage is its price. My USED RS1 coming in after shipping and duty to Canada a just over $700 CAD more than a brand new W5000. It must be said that the advantages in ANSI CR and colour are not huge leaps over the RS1, they are just a bit better and most people I talked to couldn't notice these differences in my HT.

The JVC-RS1 has a few niggles here and there, but unless you like to sit and watch test patterns instead of movies, none of them are likely to be much of an issue. The difference in native on/off contrast and the lack of a DI make for sometimes dramatic improvements in picture quality over the W5000. Unlike the advantages of the W5000, everyone noticed this difference immediately and were very impressed. I am especially happy that motion blur is a non-issue as far as I can tell...which is something that would have been a deal killer for me (as it has been on LCD flat panel TVs).

I should also add that I did a brief head to head a while back with the epson 1080UB with a nearly finished bulb and my W5000. Maybe its unfair, but I doubt the epson would be much of a match for the RS1...I actually preferred the W5000 in that contest even for black level. Considering the espon is dimmer than the w5000 in best modes, my sense is that even with a new bulb the RS1 would blow it away.

Thanks to all for suggestions/input. The thread is open for more. I will likely be returning my W5000 shortly.

Mike,

You might want watch something that is reputed to be a real ansi contrast killer just to complete your testing. Coldmachine always refers to a movie called Renaissance (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0386741/) as an example of this kind of movie.

I watched this on my old RS1 and thought the RS1 handled it nicely but I never did any comparison and was curious about it.

I didn't care for the movie and found the way it looked to be distracting but it is good test material.

Goodbye BenQ W5000...its gone back to Costco. Hello yellow banding. ;)

Yup the yellow banding was due to shading errors (non-uniformity). The RS10s and RS20 seem to have eliminated this problem.

I wonder why some RS1's have it and others don't? My image is free of yellow bands after 900 hours so far! I still wonder if heat has anything to do with it. I've been using high altitude mode since about 20 hours on my RS1. I just felt the air exhaust was too hot for my liking on normal. Noise isn't an issue in my setup. I guess if it was mounted over my head or in the same room with me it would be too loud. I couldn't figure out why people were complaining about uniformity on the RS1 but after seeing one with it I can see why now.

Ron