I need your help.....

I have owned a CIII for several years now. Although the pinnacle of SSP's in it's day, Theta has been stagnant in it's development of this product. It now "teases" of an upgrade path to HDMI v1.3b (which will instantaneously be behind the times). Even more amazing, the new "upgrade" will not incorporate room equalization capabilities.

The expected upgrade cost (with the possible need for DAC upgrades) will approach the purchase cost of a completely new, high-end SSP. Also, it is questionable if the CIII's sound quality is really that much better than more modern products (like the Anthem D2). Not having an Anthem dealer in my area, I am unable to borrow a unit for an in-home comparison. That said, I am desperate to hear from people who may have had experience with both processors (ideally, those who have owned both).

The upcoming D2v2's room equalization, lossless codec decoding, on-board video processing, and outstanding customer support make it extremely attractive. But, since I also use my system for critical 2-ch listening, I don't want to discover (after purchase) that the D2's sound quality is discernibly lower than that which I currently enjoy with my CIII. Having a Revel Salon2, Voice2 & Gem2 speaker system, I want to be able to enjoy the best that they have to offer, in both, 2-ch & 5.1HT services. That said, I would very much appreciate input from those of you who have had both SSP's.

Thank you for your input.


A side note....

As a long time CIII owner, I have monitored Theta topic threads for many years. In doing so, it has become obvious that many posts are predicated upon ego, rather than objective evaluation. I would ask that Theta zealots refrain from self promotion of their own perceived knowledge superiority and objectively stick with the topic at hand. Bashes and flamers (in either camp) need not apply. Thank you.

Have you considered the Denon unit as well?

As I understand it, the Anthem will allow you to EQ down low without touching the upper ranges, unlike a Denon, Onkyo or even NAD with Audyssey. I would consider that to be the ideal unit from that stand point, unless you actually *want* to mess with the upper ranges of the Ultimas. Having had Studio2s, I'm not sure I would want to do that, especially not making them brighter sounding.

I had the Denon AVP-8000 prior to my Casablanca, and was not too happy with it. Based upon that experience, i am a bit shy of the Denon line. Thank you for the suggestion though.

John,

I would not dream of changing the sound of the Salons themselves. My interest in room correction EQ is just that, to address room modes that I have. The in-room response of my Salons is very flat in the mid to upper range. It's the mid-bass and bass regions that are being "roughed-up" by my room characteristics. The in-room response curve gets a bit unstable below 500Hz. Some quality room EQ (read that Audyssey Pro or Anthem ARC) would squeeze the best out of what these fine speakers are capable of (in my room). But, no matter how good the room EQ is, if the SSP's D/A's and analog sections aren't good, it will hold back the Revel's.

At one time, if you wanted the best of 2-ch & 5.1HT, you needed to be looking at SSP's such as Halcro, Meridian, Lexicon, Theta, etc.. I am just not so sure that this is the case any more. But if one is going to consider such high-dollar investments, shouldn't they offer the best capabilities that are currently available in the industry? Seems that this is not the case today, as supported by the Integra 9.8/9.9 & Anthem D2's popularity among many audiophiles. Heresy? Maybe yes. But, I would like to find out the facts from those who have traveled both paths.

Frank

The new NAD M15HD should be on par with the Anthem, but isn't shipping yet. It does do a modified form of Audyssey that uses more subtle and better correction than standard Audyssey and has a modular platform like the Theta, but it does full range correction (though the result is much closer to uncorrected sound than the stock setup) Could be better, could be worse. That would take an in home demo to know though. I should have tried the NAD with the Studio2s, but didn't. I was having some problems with the Studio2's sound in my demo room in the form of a somewhat forward overall sound and I should have checked to see what happened with NAD's Audyssey setup.

There are people that love the Anthem and, to my surprise, there are a few people that take great delight in bashing the sound of it so you might get conflicting opinions. I can't imagine that it is anything less then very good, personally, but unfortunately, I haven't heard it and so hopefully others will give you a better idea. The NAD Masters HD unit might be a good option if for any reason you don't like the Anthem.

If you are concerned about the 2 channel sound quality of the Anthem, you can always purchase a used 2 channel pre-amp (which is the course of I have taken with my CBII) and get the very best of both worlds - if you are willing to give up EQ for two channel listening. I'm fortunate in that my room provides really good FR for my front two speakers.

Hai,

I think nobody can solve this one for you. The D2v will hold its own more than fine with HT uses i am guessing. Many have been forced to try different brands because of the lack of some brands to keep up. Best thing you can do is be willing to sell again and except the losses or work with a dealer that will allow for 2 weeks inhome use.

Daniel.

I have owned a CB3 with 8 channels of extreme dacs + six shooter.

I now have an anthem D2 (march 2007, not d2v and no room eq)

While the d2 sound good, it fall short to the CB3, especially in stereo mode. (analog direct) I do listen to dvd-a and sacd, so using the cb3's dacs was only for ht purpose.

The D2 is not as dynamic and involving as the cb3. No the same price tag either.

Try to search for Steve Brunzosky solution (cb3 + Six shooter + integra 9.8 for hdmi decoding solution)

I have owned a CB3 with 8 channels of extreme dacs + six shooter.

I now have an anthem D2 (march 2007, not d2v and no room eq)

While the d2 sound good, it fall short to the CB3, especially in stereo mode. (analog direct) I do listen to dvd-a and sacd, so using the cb3's dacs was only for ht purpose.

The D2 is not as dynamic and involving as the cb3. No the same price tag either.

Try to search for Steve Brunzosky solution (cb3 + Six shooter + integra 9.8 for hdmi decoding solution)

Audiman, are you using the Six Shooter multi-channel premp with your CB3?
Because it sounds even much better for SACD or DVD-A two channel than using the CB3's internal stereo direct.

What you are telling me doesn't surprise me.

THe Integra 9.8 or now 9.9 is a good interim solution for HDMI 1.3 audio until the CB3 HDMI audio 1.3 upgrade is available. Or just get a Blu Ray player that has multi-channel analog outputs and then connect to your Six Shooter if you have one (for reasons discussed in the thread he refers to, I've done both and I like the Integra option the best).

Hai,

I think nobody can solve this one for you. The D2v will hold its own more than fine with HT uses i am guessing. Many have been forced to try different brands because of the lack of some brands to keep up. Best thing you can do is be willing to sell again and except the losses or work with a dealer that will allow for 2 weeks inhome use.

Daniel.

You are probably right at least for the new high resolution formats that for now, the D2v I will betcha will sound nice for Blu Ray - probably would sound even better than the Integra 9.8 I'm using with my Theta CB3 and Six Shooter. But the Integra still sounds awful good and this will get as good as it gets once the Theta HDMI 1.3 audio upgrade is available.

And retail on the DV2 is how much - $8,500? (I see DV1 MSRP at $7995 plus saw on the web $500 for the upgrade so that = $8,500). Assuming retail on the Theta CB3 upgrade clocks in at $3,500 to $4,000, then its not like you can get a whole new better surround processor DV2 for the CB3 upgrade price. First, its not "better" but for now it will likely do the new Blu Ray formats better, for now only; and second the DV2 even at some discount will run your more $$ than the CB3 upgrade to come.

If you were buying new, you'd have to think longer and harder whether more $$ on a CB3 is worth it to you. But you have the CB3. You're in the same spot a # of CB3 owners are in who are keeping their units and waiting for the CB3 HDMI audio 1.3 upgade. Now if you only watch movies and tv, and don't care about music, then maybe selling your CB3 is right for you. Especially if you need the $$$. But why then by the DV2 when the Integra 9.8 or 9.9 may be close in performance for so much less $$?

The upcoming D2v2's room equalization, lossless codec decoding, on-board video processing, and outstanding customer support make it extremely attractive. But, since I also use my system for critical 2-ch listening, I don't want to discover (after purchase) that the D2's sound quality is discernibly lower than that which I currently enjoy with my CIII. Having a Revel Salon2, Voice2 & Gem2 speaker system, I want to be able to enjoy the best that they have to offer, in both, 2-ch & 5.1HT services. That said, I would very much appreciate input from those of you who have had both SSP's.

With the anthem you will get;
-top notch video processing
-newer better performing DAC's
-room correction
-flawless operation with firmware updates to correct anything

A couple of other to look at would be from NAD, integra/onkyo, but that would depend on how much you want to spend.

With the anthem you will get;
-top notch video processing
-newer better performing DAC's
-room correction
-flawless operation with firmware updates to correct anything

A couple of other to look at would be from NAD, integra/onkyo, but that would depend on how much you want to spend.
Didn't think it was out yet.

Didn't think it was out yet.

I talked to some of the guys in the D2 thread and they said anthem was taking orders, even so just with the regualr D2 the same improvments over the theta stand.

I talked to some of the guys in the D2 thread and they said anthem was taking orders, even so just with the regualr D2 the same improvments over the theta stand.
Still vaporware, eh? By the way, why are you recommending an $8000+ SSP when the Integra 9.8/9.9, which according to you is perfect, is one-fourth the cost?

Still vaporware, eh?

Like everyone else they will probably blame the economy.

By the way, why are you recommending an $8000+ SSP when the Integra 9.8/9.9, which according to you is perfect, is one-fourth the cost?

I did, I also recommended the NAD processors.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=678260

The D2V is now shipping.

I am new to the forums- so apologize in advance if I mess up my initial postings/responses.

Upon reading the various comparisons between "top" processors and having had somewhat similar experiences, I am going to throw my 2 cents in...

I started with a CB2 and it was the pure 2-channel analog which won me over. The CB2 had some operating quirks and would occasionally lock/freeze but the music was worth it. Within a year I bought a CB3 and have never looked back. The OS is rock-solid and once the unit is set-up, it is a sheer pleasure to use. I too have bemoaned the lack of an HDMI card and finally got a DTC-9.8 to tide me over.

In between I also felt (as many posters are thinking) that the DACs of the CB were outdated and maybe current high-end processors were better. Therefore I tried out the Krell HTS7.1, Krell S-1000 and the Classe SSP-600.
Outcome: I kept going back to the CB3! In all cases, the move back was suggested by my significant other with comments such as - "too much hiss and double layered sound (for the S-1000)", "sounds as if voice is coming from next room and has no body (SSP-600)" and "very slow pace as if an LP slows down during playback (HTS7.1)" being easily recalled. For reference: the CB3 has 2 Extreme DACs driving a Dreadnaught II powering ML Prodigy, Theater i, Vignette i's (rear). Other amps in between included Krell FPB-300cx, Krell EVO-302, Denon POA-S1 monoblocs.

Bottom line: My feeling is that the CB3 is still the best out there for pure 2-channel analog along with the ability to serve as a HT processor. It is this balance which makes me keep coming back. I am also about to try the Classe SSP-800 and will then weigh if I need the HDMI upgrade for the CB.

PS: Would it have been simpler/faster to use the Auxillary Digital Input Board SLOT for the HDMI? Easy to switch video (can be built onto board), tap HDMI audio signal for processor (already existed), and lastly- redundant RFI and extra digital inputs with the addition of HDMI.

I own the CBIII and used it for years in my home theater. I replaced it with an Anthem D2 and was disappointed. I then sold that and bought the Denon AVP and have been very satisfied. I still have my CBIII, but it's relegated to a smaller 2 channel system.

I highly recommend the Denon. Not only is it a very good preamp, but as a home theater processor, it's very respectable and works flawlessly (something that you can't just take for granted these days with HDMI).

For 2 channel, I was using an Audio Research REF III (which has a processor bypass) but I've since removed it from the system as the Denon holds its own.

I also had a CB III which I sold in favor of the Denon and I have never looked back. The sound , with the new codecs and room correction is excellent: lively, dynamic and precise. I use an MBL 6010 for 2-channel, since I have an all-MBL system and I really love the sound. At this point, withouit a lot of technical innovation, I would never go back.

David

If I were only going to use the Surround Processor for HT and use an external preamp for 2 channel, (which is what I do today), what would be your recommendation? I have a CBII but of course it does not support the new higher resolution audio formats? What model Denon are you referring to?

I have a Denon AVP processor.

David

While I'm sure this forum only represents a small portion of the A/V Processor user base, it is hard not to notice the number of folks who are bailing on Theta due to their lack of HDMI support (and room correction). And while it is purported they are working on an HDMI solution (but no announced room correction) it appears, their competitors (Anthem, Denon, Lexicon et al) have products that many find at least as or more than satisfactory and just as importantly --- available!

So, if a person wanted to purchase a new (not an upgraded) Theta CB III with all of the hardware/software necessary for HDMI, what kind of $$ are we talking about and how will that compare to the other products available that provide all of that + room correction. Could this be too little too late?

What has prompted this question is that I am a CB II owner that would need to (1) upgrade DAC's (2) upgrade to CB III and (3) upgrade to HDMI --- and based upon the numbers ($$) I have been provided, that is a LOUSY option for me to pursue --- so I am left to look elsewhere. I have no interest in the two-channel capabilities as I use an excellent Preamp with HT pass-thru.

I have been a LONG TIME Theta user who has taken advantage of their upgradable product line (DAC's and CasaBlanca) and this is the first time I have been put into this position -- bummer

I have a Meridian 861 and up to a few months ago I figured I would have been selling it to get the CB111 with their new announced HDMI solution since I had not heard anything from Meridian. Now Meridian finally came up with their solution and Theta still has not so I am sticking with Meridian. As far as room correction goes, I was not happy with the MRC and am using a QSC and could not be happier.
Ken

While I'm sure this forum only represents a small portion of the A/V Processor user base, it is hard not to notice the number of folks who are bailing on Theta due to their lack of HDMI support (and room correction). And while it is purported they are working on an HDMI solution (but no announced room correction) it appears, their competitors (Anthem, Denon, Lexicon et al) have products that many find at least as or more than satisfactory and just as importantly --- available!

So, if a person wanted to purchase a new (not an upgraded) Theta CB III with all of the hardware/software necessary for HDMI, what kind of $$ are we talking about and how will that compare to the other products available that provide all of that + room correction. Could this be too little too late?

What has prompted this question is that I am a CB II owner that would need to (1) upgrade DAC's (2) upgrade to CB III and (3) upgrade to HDMI --- and based upon the numbers ($$) I have been provided, that is a LOUSY option for me to pursue --- so I am left to look elsewhere. I have no interest in the two-channel capabilities as I use an excellent Preamp with HT pass-thru.

I have been a LONG TIME Theta user who has taken advantage of their upgradable product line (DAC's and CasaBlanca) and this is the first time I have been put into this position -- bummer

FOr me its easy to keep my CB3 and Six Shooter - I already have Xtreme DACs, so its just the base upgrade probably 4 grand to go to HDMI 1.3 audio.

But since you use external DACs, you have to also pay for new internal Theta DACs to use with HDMI 1.3 audio upgrade. Thats a lotta more $$$$. Is it worth it to ya???? You have to answer that.

Dave Reich mentioned in his interview over at Secrets of Home Theater, on the web (in the Theta Gen VIII version B review) that Theta is working on new digital out cards for the CB3 I believe to work with the CB3 HDMI 1.3 audio upgrade. Now I ain't sure about this. You might want to contact Theta and see what you can find out. And if such a new digital card out upgrade would work with non-Theta external DACs.

I guess my question is still: What is the cost of a new CB III including HDMI support going to be?

I guess my question is still: What is the cost of a new CB III including HDMI support going to be?

Take the cost of a current CB3 with features you want, add about $4K for the HDMI audio 1.3 upgrade, and that is the max. Mebbe a new one will be less with all this - but the new pricing and whether revised isn't announced yet!

I can't help with the question at hand. But did want to mention that I am not impressed with the quality of the D2. The HDMI connectors are very cheaply made and get damaged easily. I had to pay $450 to get them replaced even though the unit was under warranty (I was blamed for damaging them). Have a friend who suffered from the same failure twice (two trips to the factory).

On mine, each HDMI connector went bad sequentially after just a few cable insertions.

I also find the general user interface a few steps backward from the Lexicon 12B I used to have.

Thanks, Steve.

It looks like a new CB III with the appropriate DACS is about $14K. A few used CB III's are on Audiogon for $6K + and add the $4K for the upgrade.

So $18K for a new one (MSRP) and $10K for a used one??? And still no room correction/EQ -- They are really proud of that product!!

If I were going to that price point, I would sure have to consider some other options like (1) New Lexicon for $14K or used for $7K (2) New Anthem for $7500 or used for about $4600. And both of these options include room correction!!

I know the CB is a great surround processor but wow!

Thanks, Steve.

It looks like a new CB III with the appropriate DACS is about $14K. A few used CB III's are on Audiogon for $6K + and add the $4K for the upgrade.

So $18K for a new one (MSRP) and $10K for a used one??? And still no room correction/EQ -- They are really proud of that product!!

If I were going to that price point, I would sure have to consider some other options like (1) New Lexicon for $14K or used for $7K (2) New Anthem for $7500 or used for about $4600. And both of these options include room correction!!

I know the CB is a great surround processor but wow!

I think room correction is over rated except when it comes to the bass portion. Even Meridian's room correction is only goes up the lower midrange which is the proper approach IMO. Even with that when I had the Meridian G68 XXV I preferred to turn the EQ off.

I have used the Audyssey EQ before and prefer the sound without it. For movies it actually robbed my system of it's dynamics and was over-all a negative.
For my subs I have used a SMS-1 since it came out and will never get rid of that. You can also use a different EQ for the subs but for me the SMS-1 is the easiest to use and does a great job.

I have heard from others about using EQ and many prefer the sound without it. The only time it made a difference for the positives is when I owned a pair of Aerial 9's and in 2 channel it did sound better. My Von Schweikert's on the other hand sound much better without.

With this economy many new HDMI pre-pro's will be shelved until things improve.

To the OP I would just pick up a Onkyo pre-pro and a good 2 channel pre-amp with HT bypass to wait it out. Once you hear the new DTS-HD and TrueHD tracks you will be very impressed. You could also pick up a Pioneer Elite receiver like the 94TX or the newer 05 or 07 which are actually very good. When my pre-pro was out getting an upgrade I used both a Onkyo 805 (terrible) and a Pioneer Elite 94TX to tide me over and the Pio Elite really shocked me at how good it is that I kept it.

During these times we all just have to be patient, I don't blame the Mfg's for waiting until they feel they can move some units.

So $18K for a new one (MSRP) and $10K for a used one??? And still no room correction/EQ -- They are really proud of that product!!

I know, you pay alot for little to no features.

The HDMI connectors are very cheaply made and get damaged easily. I had to pay $450 to get them replaced even though the unit was under warranty (I was blamed for damaging them).

How hard are you reefing on the HDMI cables? I have never heard of this.

I have used the Audyssey EQ before and prefer the sound without it.

In what unit and what version?

So $18K for a new one (MSRP) and $10K for a used one??? And still no room correction/EQ -- They are really proud of that product!!For $18K, you might consider the upcoming Sim CP-8. All the bells and whistles but limited number of HDMI inputs without the matching switcher.

How hard are you reefing on the HDMI cables? I have never heard of this.



In what unit and what version?[/QUOTE]

Doug,
this is know problem with the anthem processors with HDMI, and they place a warning sticker on every processor they ship that states indicates they are not responsible for damage to the hdmi connectors.

If you buy a used CB3 (or CB2) and upgrade it, then you should get a full new warranty with the upgrade. COOL!

To think the Lexicon is in the same league soundwise with Theta or Meridian? Go ahead and make a wish if you must wish! (HELLO - here come the Lex boys to derail this thread. Counting ONE TWO THREE. HA!

If you buy a used CB3 (or CB2) and upgrade it, then you should get a full new warranty with the upgrade. COOL!

I would hope so for the $10,000 upgrade.

To think the Lexicon is in the same league soundwise with Theta or Meridian? Go ahead and make a wish if you must wish! (HELLO - here come the Lex boys to derail this thread. Counting ONE TWO THREE. HA!

A subjective opinion isn't it steve? What are you basing this on?

The HDMI connectors are very cheaply made and get damaged easily. I had to pay $450 to get them replaced even though the unit was under warranty (I was blamed for damaging them).

I just asked in the anthem thread and this is not a problem, everyone says that it would be user error that caused the damage.

I just asked in the anthem thread and this is not a problem, everyone says that it would be user error that caused the damage.
If you connected and disconnected the HDMI cable a dozen times before it happened, would you say that is user error? Or a case of those folks hooking things up and not messing with it a second time?

If you connected and disconnected the HDMI cable a dozen times before it happened, would you say that is user error? Or a case of those folks hooking things up and not messing with it a second time?

I'm sure you appreciate all the research Doug has done on your behalf but you're just having some trouble expressing your gratitude. :rolleyes:
I can only imagine how much of a problem Doug would consider these HDMI connector failures to be, if one broke on him. It's never a problem unless it happens to be your problem!

If failure is so unlikely, why is this manufacturer going to such great lengths to protect themselves by placing warning notices, as I understand it, in multiple places on their equipment?
I own a number of things that have HDMI ports and while I understand that they are fairly fragile, I don't recall having to peel any warning stickers off of anything else I own. Unless Amir used a sledge and a wedge to get that cable in there, it should be covered by a warranty.


The first thing I was asked when I had a problem with my VP was, "did you try a different port?" He went on to give me a multitude of reasons on how and why the ports could go bad, including different types of "user error".
But they didn't say, well sir, you should have been more careful or you should have known better, they just overnight-ed a new unit and said, "we apologize for your trouble and any inconvenience".

If and when I get to have my CBIII upgraded to HDMI, I wouldn't necessarily be very disappointed to find I have to peel off warning stickers nearly as much as I would be if that warning came with a claim that any type of port failure would not be covered under warranty. This just would not seem acceptable to me.

I just asked in the anthem thread and this is not a problem, everyone says that it would be user error that caused the damage.
Doug, if you're old enough you may remember that Dish Network had to replace thousands of of their 622 HD DVR's due to damaged HDMI ports. They took full responsibility and gladly replaced them all N/C.
No warranty for this type of damage would be a complete no go on any wise consumer's part.
Regards, Norm

Doug, if you're old enough - - -

Doug, now how many times have your parents and teachers told you to get off the marijuana. It affects your brain. It affects your behavior. It affects your AVS postings. Please get some help.:D:D:D

Lol!

2.86$, problem solves:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240&cs_id=1024010&p_id=2891&seq=1&format=1#largeimage

I taught it was the 20K$ forum... Can't believe people are bashing the D2v for a user problem. If you don't know how to plug an HDMI cable, then don't use it. Or just buy this thing at 2.86$...

Btw, all those ''comparisons'' and subjective evaluations of the D2 against ''x'' pre/pro, are not really useful, since :

A) we now have the D2v and
B) it was without ARC and
C) each new iteration of the firmware is improving ARC, also and improving the overal SQ of the D2v.

If you connected and disconnected the HDMI cable a dozen times before it happened, would you say that is user error? Or a case of those folks hooking things up and not messing with it a second time?
Doug, if you're old enough you may remember that Dish Network had to replace thousands of of their 622 HD DVR's due to damaged HDMI ports. They took full responsibility and gladly replaced them all N/C.
No warranty for this type of damage would be a complete no go on any wise consumer's part.
Regards, Norm

Since other anthem owners are not having this problem then it would be user error.

Lol!

2.86$, problem solves:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...t=1#largeimage

I taught it was the 20K$ forum... Can't believe people are bashing the D2v for a user problem. If you don't know how to plug an HDMI cable, then don't use it. Or just buy this thing at 2.86$...

I agree.

Since other anthem owners are not having this problem then it would be user error.
Did you conduct a survey of all Anthem owners or are you just making this up as you go along? Pray tell, what is your explanation of Anthem's motivation putting those stickers all over the back of their processor?

Lol!

2.86$, problem solves:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240&cs_id=1024010&p_id=2891&seq=1&format=1#largeimage

I taught it was the 20K$ forum... Can't believe people are bashing the D2v for a user problem. If you don't know how to plug an HDMI cable, then don't use it. Or just buy this thing at 2.86$...
You are mistaken as to the cause. It was not the weight of the cable that did any damage. The cable was for an input source, not for the PJ. So it was small and much lighter weight.

I examined the failure. The connector was just fine and was not cracked or damaged mechanically. Instead, the small PCB traces inside of the connector had become disconnected and broken off. Take a look next time inside the connector and you see what I mean.

The connector wore off from inserting and removing the cable N times. There is no sticker or warning about only using the connector less than that many times.

So tell me again what the user error is? And keep in mind that you are talking to an engineer who used to repair A/V equipment for a living :).

Did you conduct a survey of all Anthem owners or are you just making this up as you go along? Pray tell, what is your explanation of Anthem's motivation putting those stickers all over the back of their processor?

Did you read a few posts up where I asked in the anthem owners thread?

Did you read a few posts up where I asked in the anthem owners thread?

I happened to see your post there, and some replies that followed. I think you interpret the "data" you collected there to suit yourself.

We have had some reports of damaged HDMI sockets in this thread. Bob

and how about

I have an issue with one of my HDMI outs. .

OR

I had a damaged HDMI out #1. The little plastic tab in there was split. Fortunately, none of the pins were bent, so I just pinched the plastic together and put a port-saver on it. No problems since.

This was fresh out of the box - I always inspect HDMI ports before hooking anything up. So it was a manufacturing defect.


But you choose to take the stance of

it was probably the user doing something becuase I have not heard and mass failures on any HDMI equipment.

Plus...the mass recall mentioned to you a few posts earlier on different equipt.
Still, it's not a problem because it's not your problem.

Did you read a few posts up where I asked in the anthem owners thread?
Yeah, you posted the question yesterday afternoon. The only conclusion you can draw is that of all the Anthem owners in the world, the miniscule number who just coincidentally might have been reading the thread in the past 24 hours didn't respond one way or the other. Big deal. Now, why does Anthem put those warning stickers all over the back of their processors? Are you aware of any other manufactures who have gone to such lengths?

Yeah, you posted the question yesterday afternoon. The only conclusion you can draw is that of all the Anthem owners in the world, the miniscule number who just coincidentally might have been reading the thread in the past 24 hours didn't respond one way or the other. Big deal. Now, why does Anthem put those warning stickers all over the back of their processors? Are you aware of any other manufactures who have gone to such lengths?


I can just see it now.

All surround processors which cost more than the Anthem:

"WARNING. Doug Winsor says that if you spend this much, it doesn't sound better than buying an Anthem!"

And for all HDMI connectors on surround processors and any other equipment:
"Warning. Use at your own risk. If you break this you are stupid. So says Doug Winsor!"

Yeah, you posted the question yesterday afternoon. The only conclusion you can draw is that of all the Anthem owners in the world, the miniscule number who just coincidentally might have been reading the thread in the past 24 hours didn't respond one way or the other. Big deal. Now, why does Anthem put those warning stickers all over the back of their processors? Are you aware of any other manufactures who have gone to such lengths?

I searched the master Anthem thread which is 3 years old and contains nearly 20,000 messages. I did not see any evidence of a significant or pervasive HDMI port failures.

I also did a Google search on the topic and came up with nothing to indicate this is a common problem.

I searched the master Anthem thread which is 3 years old and contains nearly 20,000 messages. I did not see any evidence of a significant or pervasive HDMI port failures.

I also did a Google search on the topic and came up with nothing to indicate this is a common problem.
I guess Anthem had a couple of thousand warning labels laying around and decided to stick them on back on the D2 for a lark.

I guess Anthem had a couple of thousand warning labels laying around and decided to stick them on back on the D2 for a lark.

I've seen plenty of overboard product warning labels, and I am sure you have too.

I haven't demod the Anthem surround processor and have no knowledge of the quality of their HDMI connectors or if there's any problem with them.

I will say that I've had two HD DVD players, three Blu Ray players, one DVD player,
a surround preamp (Integra 9.8), a Lumagen Radiance XD and now XE, and a 6 in 1 out Zektor HDMI switcher - none with any warning labels.

As a practical matter, a company does not put warning labels on a product unless (1) to warn consumers of a product which may be unsafe and cause injury if not used in a proper manner, or (2) some function or part of the product is more problematic and they are hopeful that by warning the customer, that the customer will be more careful in use.

Objectively, something appears to be "off" when only one manufacturer is using warning labels on their HDMI connectors and not one other is doing this.

So who is going to volunteer to take apart several components, including an Anthem surround processor, take good photos and post them and explain if the Anthem HDMI connectors are any different?

Objectively, something appears to be "off" when only one manufacturer is using warning labels on their HDMI connectors and not one other is doing this.



That was my first reaction too, which is why I did my search for evidence of a pattern of problems.

Didn't find anything, but later I for fun I searched out interesting product warning labels.

Stuff like "do not burn wood in oven". "Caution: Avoid Death". "Remove child before folding stroller".

"If you do not understand, or cannot read, all directions, cautions and warnings, do not use this product."

"Shin pads cannot protect any part of the body they do not cover"

And on a box of Nytol:
Warning: May cause drowsiness.

The list is long, and I am sure is evidence of a need for tort reform.

That was my first reaction too, which is why I did my search for evidence of a pattern of problems.

Didn't find anything, but later I for fun I searched out interesting product warning labels.

Stuff like "do not burn wood in oven". "Caution: Avoid Death". "Remove child before folding stroller".

"If you do not understand, or cannot read, all directions, cautions and warnings, do not use this product."

"Shin pads cannot protect any part of the body they do not cover"

And on a box of Nytol:
Warning: May cause drowsiness.

The list is long, and I am sure is evidence of a need for tort reform.

All examples you cite are legal to help avoid injury. Certainly the
Arcam warning has nothing to do with injury.

Please give us some examples of AV gear with similar warnings.

Now I will admit that perhaps Arcam is just being ultra cautious with this warning. They may have had a few customers with problems so they overreacted by using such warning labels. Lets say a customer gets a real heavy HDMI cable, there is no support nearby for the cable other than the HDMI connector. Even a good solid HDMI connector might break. And we all know that when it comes to HDMI connectors, there really is not such thing as a perfectly "good solid" such connector, is there? The HDMI connector is somewhat problematic based on its design. Unless you get the HDMI connector which has a special screw to hold it in, and unless the AV gear has a special screw hold to hold in the screw. Only a minority of AV gear has this, like my Zektor switcher.

If I were interested in the Arcam, I wouldn 't let the HDMI warning deter me. I would first examine the HDMI connector externally to determine if it seems as solid as other HDMI connectors I use on my components.

If I were interested in the [Anthem], I wouldn't let the HDMI warning deter me. I would first examine the HDMI connector externally to determine if it seems as solid as other HDMI connectors I use on my components.
You mean you wouldn't just check with DougWinsor first?

If I were only going to use the Surround Processor for HT and use an external preamp for 2 channel, (which is what I do today), what would be your recommendation? I have a CBII but of course it does not support the new higher resolution audio formats? What model Denon are you referring to?

I have an Anthem D2 and use a theater bypass type setup with my audio system. I must say that the ARC eq in the D2 really ups the ante in terms of sound quality and the whole movie experience. It's a fabulous unit.

Didn't find anything, but later I for fun I searched out interesting product warning labels.

Stuff like "do not burn wood in oven". "Caution: Avoid Death". "Remove child before folding stroller".

"If you do not understand, or cannot read, all directions, cautions and warnings, do not use this product."

"Shin pads cannot protect any part of the body they do not cover"

And on a box of Nytol:
Warning: May cause drowsiness.
Hilarious! Great finds. Some are tautologous, but others ... wow. Steve, I wonder what lawsuit arose from the failure to remove a child before folding the stroller.

All examples you cite are legal to help avoid injury.

Certainly the [Anthem] warning has nothing to do with injury.

Please give us some examples of AV gear with similar warnings.

From a DVD recorder:

• Operate the drive only in a horizontal position, to prevent damage to the
media or mechanical parts.
• Operate the device only at temperatures ranging from 10 - 35 °C.
• Do not use the device in a dusty and humid environment.
• Protect the drive from mechanical shocks!
• The device should not be operated in the vicinity of strong electromagnetic radiation
sources (loudspeakers, mobile telephones etc.).

Three sides to every story and although I normally see AVS discussions as self-correcting, this one has more holes than the D2's jack panel.

12-06-07: The dealer arranges service for a second-hand privately-purchased D2, and asks for HDMI jack repair cost. $50 per jack so potentially $250, shipping extra. However, we were liberal about not charging for damaged jacks (no longer the case).

01-15-08: The repaired D2 is on its way back. Two jacks replaced, no charge.

01-17-08: The dealer asks Anthem what the charge is, the answer is $0.

01-18-08, 01:27 PM Page 151, post 4508
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12857491#post12857491

amirm: "Anthem just charged me $240 to replace the HDMI input board which wore out after swapping out the cables half a dozen times to test different players. This, even though the set is under warranty! Worst part was being without the unit for 4+ weeks, even though I pointed out to the local shop that they just need to order the input board. But they insisted on shipping this thing round trip to canada just to swap out a board... The connectors are dirt cheap with PCB traces that simply broke off. I also had one of those high-end cables with one of the pins wearing out. You know, the ones that are twice as thick as they need to be. So now, I have the cheapest, and thinnest HDMI cables I can find. They are ultra flexible, easy to insert and put no strain on the connectors."

In addition the dealer contacted the rep who contacted me so I contacted the dealer to see what was up since it was no-charge, and the response was they charged $70 for shipping. Before this the dealer quoted around $250 to which their unnamed customer responded "it's still under the Microsoft umbrella" or something to that effect therefore there shouldn't be a charge. Is the correct translation that it was used commercially therefore subject to unusual wear? Now since in all of this the only person I had contact with was one person in the dealer's service dept I really don't know who was charged what, but it happened over a year ago and the dealer no longer carries Anthem so as far as I'm concerned the book is closed. For clarity, there is no HDMI input board on the D2 - the jacks and the entire video processor, less its power supply, are the same board. For further clarity someone has to explain how the alleged $240 (or $70 or $0, whatever it really was) above ballooned 14 months after the fact to $450 in post 28 of this thread.

01-18-08, 11:49 PM Page 153, post 4583:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12863853#post12863853

amirm: "I need to be able to A/B quickly. This means that I need two of everything. I happen to have two Onkyo 805s. Yes, two! The HDMI port went bad in the first one! Circuit City would not do an in store exchange so I had to buy another and then return the first one."

The nerve of them! Cue the "Blame Canada" song. Seriously, what was the fate of the offending garden-hose-stiff cable with the bent pin?

I'm going to leave Amir, who has been enthusiastically displaying his enthusiasm for Anthem online and elsewhere for a long time, alone to bring up the general issue:

01-24-07, 09:06 PM
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=794088

HDMI_Org: "It is fairly uncommon for the cable to be the cause of HDMI compatibility problems, or for non-compliant cables to be found in the market. In fact, the robustness of the HDMI specification has been verified by the fact that we have not found a compliant HDMI cable that is the root cause of HDMI playback issues with compliant devices."

02-06-07, 11:46 AM
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=801322

HDMI_Org: "For consumers who are able to identify that their HDMI cable was the likely cause of video/audio noise issues (e.g. where replacement of an HDMI cable with another HDMI cable corrected the problem), HDMI Licensing LLC is interested in obtaining your cable for testing, development, and compliance analysis purposes."

Anthem found HDMI cable problems in 2005 while developing the D2 (released March 2006), which led to the sticker that warns all new users. It also basically says "do not re-use HDMI cables too many times". The manual goes further. They're not as mechanically robust as previous A/V connectors except maybe S-Video, so get used to it. In fairness and so we don't remain stuck in the past, designs have improved, I suppose in part because the 1.3 spec beefed up mechanical requirements. And although I'm not implying that it's suddenly industrial-strength, the last time I looked the sky hadn't fallen at any time.

Anyone wishing to discuss with me this or any technical issue - tech at anthemav dot com.

Plus...the mass recall mentioned to you a few posts earlier on different equipt.
Still, it's not a problem because it's not your problem.

One recall out of thousands of different components?

I searched the master Anthem thread which is 3 years old and contains nearly 20,000 messages. I did not see any evidence of a significant or pervasive HDMI port failures.

I also did a Google search on the topic and came up with nothing to indicate this is a common problem.

Exactly.

I searched the master Anthem thread which is 3 years old and contains nearly 20,000 messages. I did not see any evidence of a significant or pervasive HDMI port failures.
And everyone knows that all Anthem owners regularly read and post on AVS. Exactly.

From a DVD recorder:

• Operate the drive only in a horizontal position, to prevent damage to the
media or mechanical parts.
• Operate the device only at temperatures ranging from 10 - 35 °C.
• Do not use the device in a dusty and humid environment.
• Protect the drive from mechanical shocks!
• The device should not be operated in the vicinity of strong electromagnetic radiation
sources (loudspeakers, mobile telephones etc.).

Yup, every warning you cite is to protect the equipment to avoid it requiring repair - no personal injury worry here. Unless watching tv in a dusty and humid environment leads to injury (WOOPS!)

:DHilarious! Great finds. Some are tautologous, but others ... wow. Steve, I wonder what lawsuit arose from the failure to remove a child before folding the stroller.

Ask Doug Winsor. His parents probably brought that lawsuit. How else do you think he can afford an $8K surround processor (if he has one - he's never said he has one). HAAA

Three sides to every story and although I normally see AVS discussions as self-correcting, this one has more holes than the D2's jack panel.

12-06-07: The dealer arranges service for a second-hand privately-purchased D2, and asks for HDMI jack repair cost. $50 per jack so potentially $250, shipping extra. However, we were liberal about not charging for damaged jacks (no longer the case).

01-15-08: The repaired D2 is on its way back. Two jacks replaced, no charge.

01-17-08: The dealer asks Anthem what the charge is, the answer is $0.

01-18-08, 01:27 PM Page 151, post 4508
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12857491#post12857491

amirm: "Anthem just charged me $240 to replace the HDMI input board which wore out after swapping out the cables half a dozen times to test different players. This, even though the set is under warranty! Worst part was being without the unit for 4+ weeks, even though I pointed out to the local shop that they just need to order the input board. But they insisted on shipping this thing round trip to canada just to swap out a board... The connectors are dirt cheap with PCB traces that simply broke off. I also had one of those high-end cables with one of the pins wearing out. You know, the ones that are twice as thick as they need to be. So now, I have the cheapest, and thinnest HDMI cables I can find. They are ultra flexible, easy to insert and put no strain on the connectors."

In addition the dealer contacted the rep who contacted me so I contacted the dealer to see what was up since it was no-charge, and the response was they charged $70 for shipping. Before this the dealer quoted around $250 to which their unnamed customer responded "it's still under the Microsoft umbrella" or something to that effect therefore there shouldn't be a charge. Is the correct translation that it was used commercially therefore subject to unusual wear? Now since in all of this the only person I had contact with was one person in the dealer's service dept I really don't know who was charged what, but it happened over a year ago and the dealer no longer carries Anthem so as far as I'm concerned the book is closed. For clarity, there is no HDMI input board on the D2 - the jacks and the entire video processor, less its power supply, are the same board. For further clarity someone has to explain how the alleged $240 (or $70 or $0, whatever it really was) above ballooned 14 months after the fact to $450 in post 28 of this thread.

01-18-08, 11:49 PM Page 153, post 4583:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12863853#post12863853

amirm: "I need to be able to A/B quickly. This means that I need two of everything. I happen to have two Onkyo 805s. Yes, two! The HDMI port went bad in the first one! Circuit City would not do an in store exchange so I had to buy another and then return the first one."

The nerve of them! Cue the "Blame Canada" song. Seriously, what was the fate of the offending garden-hose-stiff cable with the bent pin?

I'm going to leave Amir, who has been enthusiastically displaying his enthusiasm for Anthem online and elsewhere for a long time, alone to bring up the general issue:

01-24-07, 09:06 PM
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=794088

HDMI_Org: "It is fairly uncommon for the cable to be the cause of HDMI compatibility problems, or for non-compliant cables to be found in the market. In fact, the robustness of the HDMI specification has been verified by the fact that we have not found a compliant HDMI cable that is the root cause of HDMI playback issues with compliant devices."

02-06-07, 11:46 AM
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=801322

HDMI_Org: "For consumers who are able to identify that their HDMI cable was the likely cause of video/audio noise issues (e.g. where replacement of an HDMI cable with another HDMI cable corrected the problem), HDMI Licensing LLC is interested in obtaining your cable for testing, development, and compliance analysis purposes."

Anthem found HDMI cable problems in 2005 while developing the D2 (released March 2006), which led to the sticker that warns all new users. It also basically says "do not re-use HDMI cables too many times". The manual goes further. They're not as mechanically robust as previous A/V connectors except maybe S-Video, so get used to it. In fairness and so we don't remain stuck in the past, designs have improved, I suppose in part because the 1.3 spec beefed up mechanical requirements. And although I'm not implying that it's suddenly industrial-strength, the last time I looked the sky hadn't fallen at any time.

Anyone wishing to discuss with me this or any technical issue - tech at anthemav dot com.

I vote that Anthem wins this round, despite having Doug Winsor as a cheerleader! Gotta give Anthem credit for coming onto this ravacious nitty picky nutty forum!!!@@@

And everyone knows that all Anthem owners regularly read and post on AVS. Exactly.

There are a lot of users on this forum and in that thread that have direct contact with anthem as dealers so I think they would have heard about it.

Three sides to every story and although I normally see AVS discussions as self-correcting, this one has more holes than the D2's jack panel.

12-06-07: The dealer arranges service for a second-hand privately-purchased D2, and asks for HDMI jack repair cost. $50 per jack so potentially $250, shipping extra. However, we were liberal about not charging for damaged jacks (no longer the case).

01-15-08: The repaired D2 is on its way back. Two jacks replaced, no charge.

01-17-08: The dealer asks Anthem what the charge is, the answer is $0.

01-18-08, 01:27 PM Page 151, post 4508
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12857491#post12857491

amirm: "Anthem just charged me $240 to replace the HDMI input board which wore out after swapping out the cables half a dozen times to test different players. This, even though the set is under warranty! Worst part was being without the unit for 4+ weeks, even though I pointed out to the local shop that they just need to order the input board. But they insisted on shipping this thing round trip to canada just to swap out a board... The connectors are dirt cheap with PCB traces that simply broke off. I also had one of those high-end cables with one of the pins wearing out. You know, the ones that are twice as thick as they need to be. So now, I have the cheapest, and thinnest HDMI cables I can find. They are ultra flexible, easy to insert and put no strain on the connectors."

In addition the dealer contacted the rep who contacted me so I contacted the dealer to see what was up since it was no-charge, and the response was they charged $70 for shipping. Before this the dealer quoted around $250 to which their unnamed customer responded "it's still under the Microsoft umbrella" or something to that effect therefore there shouldn't be a charge. Is the correct translation that it was used commercially therefore subject to unusual wear? Now since in all of this the only person I had contact with was one person in the dealer's service dept I really don't know who was charged what, but it happened over a year ago and the dealer no longer carries Anthem so as far as I'm concerned the book is closed. For clarity, there is no HDMI input board on the D2 - the jacks and the entire video processor, less its power supply, are the same board. For further clarity someone has to explain how the alleged $240 (or $70 or $0, whatever it really was) above ballooned 14 months after the fact to $450 in post 28 of this thread.

01-18-08, 11:49 PM Page 153, post 4583:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12863853#post12863853

amirm: "I need to be able to A/B quickly. This means that I need two of everything. I happen to have two Onkyo 805s. Yes, two! The HDMI port went bad in the first one! Circuit City would not do an in store exchange so I had to buy another and then return the first one."

The nerve of them! Cue the "Blame Canada" song. Seriously, what was the fate of the offending garden-hose-stiff cable with the bent pin?

I'm going to leave Amir, who has been enthusiastically displaying his enthusiasm for Anthem online and elsewhere for a long time, alone to bring up the general issue:

01-24-07, 09:06 PM
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=794088
Is it possible that since the dealer quote $250 to repair, even though Anthem said no charge, that the dealer went ahead and charge Amir $250 anyway.

Steve, I agree with you. I can just see the accident reconstructionist or biomechanical engineer explaining that one.

Nick, stick around, even if it is bumpy from time to time. It is nice to have manufacturer reps on board AVS. By the way, that D2v2 looks impressive. I'm hoping to audition one in the very near future.

I just asked in the anthem thread and this is not a problem, everyone says that it would be user error that caused the damage.It is easy to find discussion of an HDMI connector problem in that thread.

It is easy to find discussion of an HDMI connector problem in that thread.

You mean hdmi connection problem. Same with any ssp.
At least Anthem does their best to resolve connection issues etc.. I've read the whole thread and there aren't very many hdmi connector problems. A lot of kaka stirrers on this thread.

A lot of kaka stirrers on this thread. They show up under different names on virtually all threads!

You mean hdmi connection problem. Same with any ssp.
At least Anthem does their best to resolve connection issues etc.. I've read the whole thread and there aren't very many hdmi connector problems.

The issue only evolved into Anthem must have alot of HDMI problems, only after a certain individule went thread hopping to collect some sort of data as proof positive that no one other then Amir has ever had a problem.
From this study of the HDMI problem in question, he deemed it could only have been caused by the user.
Speaking for myself, I saw no way to make any sort of determination either way.

Then, yet more blanket statements are made, using words like "everyone says", which clearly, everyone is not saying, to present this so called proof.
Things break for whatever reason, almost everyone understands that.
It was unfair to have cast blame in this situation on either Anthem or the user, given the amount of actual proof available.

What many on this forum object to and have a problem with, are those blanket statements and certainly not with the occasional problem all manufactures must surely suffer.

I vote that Anthem wins this round, despite having Doug Winsor as a cheerleader! Gotta give Anthem credit for coming onto this ravacious nitty picky nutty forum!!!@@@
As a courtesy to them, I have sent a PM to Nick rather than posting my response here. Once I reconcile his version of the events with mine, I will report back. But let's say the plot thickens, and I mean really thickens. I expected anything but that answer....

Once I reconcile his version of the events with mine, I will report back. But let's say the plot thickens, and I mean really thickens. I expected anything but that answer....

I suppose it has something to do with the dealers version, which we won't get. If I recall correctly, you mentioned he's no longer a dealer.

Good luck with this.

The issue only evolved into Anthem must have alot of HDMI problems, only after a certain individule went thread hopping to collect some sort of data as proof positive that no one other then Amir has ever had a problem.

From this study of the HDMI problem in question, he deemed it could only have been caused by the user.

Speaking for myself, I saw no way to make any sort of determination either way.

Then, yet more blanket statements are made, using words like "everyone says", which clearly, everyone is not saying, to present this so called proof.

Things break for whatever reason, almost everyone understands that.

It was unfair to have cast blame in this situation on either Anthem or the user, given the amount of actual proof available.

What many on this forum object to and have a problem with, are those blanket statements and certainly not with the occasional problem all manufactures must surely suffer.

I agree with all of this. As a prospective Anthem customer what is important to me is determining whether or not Anthem has an ongoing HDMI hardware defect that is occurring in a significant percentage of units.

As far as Amir's experience, that is one datum. Regardless of the root cause of the fault it doesn't qualify as a pattern.

This sounds like an 'issue' we had with an NAD DVD player. I had no idea we had the issue until my installer came in complaining about breaking them. I never broke one. Standard delicacy worked just fine. Ham fisted jamming, not so much. So NAD fixed several of ours for free and upgraded the robustness on the next versions. Problem solved.

But, sure, for those people that are indelicate with $5000 pieces of gear and twist it around a lot or try to jam HDMI in at an angle or upside down, sure, buy something more sturdy. As a Texan once said 'ain't no sense in complainin' about it'.

When I started this thread, I was just trying to get some insight for how an Anthem D2v2 might sound in comparison to a Casablanca III. To those that tried to help out, I sincerely thank you for your input. Unfortunately, the all too typical rantings of some very childish individuals took over.....

"Look what I know. I'm the smartest person in the world, and if you don't recognize it, you're stupid."

"I'm not stupid, you are. And besides, I'm smarter."

"No gear can possibly be as good as mine, otherwise I would have bought it."

"Theta makes the best equipment in the world. Always has, always will. Even if they won't answer it's customers questions, or provide upgrades that are technologically relevant."

Seriously people....get a life!!


If there is a moderator reading this; Please put this thread out of it's misery and end it now.

I was just trying to get some insight for how an Anthem D2v2 might sound in comparison to a Casablanca III.

That would be subjective and up to you, you would have to demo both units and come up with your own conclusion.

That would be subjective and up to you, you would have to demo both units and come up with your own conclusion.
That's just the kind of insight he was looking for when he started the thread, since it is beyond the realm of possibility that one of the members of AVS had actually heard both units and could offer his impressions. Thank you for your continuing contributions.

That's just the kind of insight he was looking for when he started the thread, since it is beyond the realm of possibility that one of the members of AVS had actually heard both units and could offer his impressions. Thank you for your continuing contributions.

What part of subjective did you not understand? Again you are posting just to incite and argument.

Our egoes get in the way of rationality on occassion, aye. DAMN I WISH I KNEW HOW TO GET THE QUESTION MARK ON MY KEY WHICH HAS THREE SYMBOLS ON IT. HELP PLEASE.

What part of subjective did you not understand? Again you are posting just to incite and argument.

No, he is simply trying to assist the OP who apparently can not demo the two units of interest or I'm reasonable sure he would not be asking for the opinion of others. So he is asking (but apparently you don't get it) for other opinions on what they might sound like in comparison since he is not able to compare them. How hard of a question is that??????

That would be subjective and up to you, you would have to demo both units and come up with your own conclusion.

WOW! You are scaring me. Making some sense. Must have been off the marijuana for a few days@@@@:D:D:)

If there is a moderator reading this; Please put this thread out of it's misery and end it now.

and to all a Good Night