We recently bought the canon hf100 and my PC is too old to even attempt editing the avchd footage. I do not do any tinkering with computers so upgrading is not being considered and the kids will use my current machine. I need to buy a new computer and the research process has consumed me the last few weeks. We all know the great stories mac users have to say about their macs. However, after researching macs I see that apple software transcodes to AIC and there are some who insist that hd quality is degraded during this process and some that insist it is not. In the pc world, there are many editing options and according to the forums, there are a lot of bad experiences for pcs as well.

I have posted here before but am hoping to make a decision this weekend after getting some feedback from users that are having good experiences editing avchd on macs and pcs. If you are out there, can you provide your real life experiences and specifically try to explain your thoughts on pros and cons of PC vs Mac for what I want to do buy using your real life experience with your workflow.
If I go the pc route I would probably buy the new i7 2.66 (dell) or at least a 2.66 quad core (HP) with at least 4GB of RAM and a decent video card. If I go the mac route I would probably get the iMac 20 or 24 with at least 2.66 processor. Would either of these pc / mac configurations allow me to accomplish these things:

1. record at highest quality
2. easily transfer avchd footage to computer
3. I currently feel the need to permanently save my raw avchd footage but this may not be necessary.
4. edit by adding fades, effects, music, menus and titles
5. burn to standard dvd in SD for friends and burn to standard dvd in hd for my PS3. I do think I will get a bluray burner in the future.
6. I have days of raw old family footage on DVD from my old hi8 and minidvd camcorder that I would like to edit and possibly merge with the new avchd footage.

I would of course like to do all of this efficiently and with no crashes…I realize no crashes is wishful thinking but the fewer crashes the better.
If you are a pc user, what software do you use and what version of that software?
Does the video card have a big impact on stability and efficiency? I think one of the editors is optimized with nvidia cuda technology?
Are there any all-in-ones by dell or hp that can handle avchd editing?
Is Mac or PC better for what I want to do?

If you plan on getting into Blu Ray at some point then that pretty much takes the mac out of the picture. Apple doesn't really support Blu Ray and the chances are great that won't change anytime soon.

So if you're looking at a new machine for avchd then it makes sense to go with nothing less than the new intel i7 technology ... the 920 is a good start.

As for video cards... it all depends on what programs you choose to edit with. Some programs like premiere pro, Avid Liquid, and Pinnacle studio do use the gpu for some processing so you need to look at the program specs. Other programs like Sony Vegas pro for example are pure memory and cpu driven so the video card is of no importance.

If you plan on just plopping you video onto a disk then you're probably better off going with any one of the cheaper consumer programs like Nero, or Ulead because they can "smart render" which is basically the ability to copy without having to re write anything.

If however you're looking to do things like add effects, transitions, titles.... etc then you're better off with something a little more expensive like Sony Vegas pro or Adobe Premiere pro. They can do full renders with fairly complex time lines

As for crashing.... you can expect this from any one of these programs... native avchd is not easy to edit. To minimize crashes then the best thing to do is work with an intermediate codec. Convert your avchd to a lossless intermediate then edit with it. There are lots of good intermediates around... cineform (which is what I use) huffy uv, lagrith...etc

Then there are converter programs like upshift that converts your avchd to m2t (mpeg) which is not lossless but very easy to edit.

At any rate this should be enough to give you a start.

apple does not support blu-ray or native avchd editing, and there are far more software editing options on the pc platform... that should be enough to seal the deal right there.

if you have purchased pc software, then it's logical to continue with the platform that you already have software for... yes, you could do boot camp or whatever with the mac, but you'd still have to purchase the pc operating system software.

thanks bigbarney and osv. I have not bought anything as of now but the avchd camcorder because I am trying to figure out what I want to do. I will not be buying any of the pro versions simply because of the cost. Currently am considering PE7, Sony Vegas and PowerDirector 7...all of the top versions for these three. I will need to look into this comment some more: "Convert your avchd to a lossless intermediate then edit with it. There are lots of good intermediates around... cineform (which is what I use) huffy uv, lagrith...etc"

i use canopus hq as an intermediate, because i am editing on a core2duo, which isn't fast enough to decode avchd... if you get a *fast* core2quad or an i7, or you use a video-accelerated editor like nero, you probably won't need to hassle with an intermediate codec.

intermediate codecs can be beneficial for professional editing purposes, tho... are you editing home videos, or ??

think about a 64-bit operating system, if you have the right editing software, it'll take advantage of the extra bandwidth.

yep, just home video but we want it to look good! Just like the raw footage on the sdhc card. Yes, I will also get 64bit xp if I get a pc

I've got a Q6600 QuadCore Vista 64-bit system, 6gb RAM, and nVidia videocard. I have an SR11 and am still looking for an optimal solution for editing AVCHD files.

Sony Vegas Movie Studio Platinum Pro 9.0b has a known bug where it chokes when rendering full HD (1920x1080-60i Dolby 5.1) mts files. This has remained unfixed for at least 6 months.

Coreo Video Studio X2 has a glitch in transitions created during editing, when rendering HD files.

Pinnacle Studio 2 Ultimate loses 5.1 Dolby sound when importing the mts files.

Cyberlink Power Director 7 also has problems working with AVCHD files.

All of these are software issues, and not solved by more powerful hardware, to the best of my knowledge.

The only one that seems to work consistently and reliabilty with AVCHD files, including full HD rendering, is Sony Vegas Pro 8.0c or 8.1 (for use with 64-bit Vista). But you're looking at $300 to $500 for that.

Good luck. Hopefully things will improve over the next 6 to 12 months as all of these bugs and quirks are fixed, but for the moment, there are no cost effective solutions, as far as I know, that allow trouble-free editing and rendering of AVCHD files.

If I'm overlooking such a solution, though, I'm all ears!!

DLCPhoto,

Try the latest version of Nero 9 if all you're doing is simple editing. I bet you'll be impressed how well it handles AVCHD natively.

DLCPhoto, have you tried premiere elements 7?

DLCPhoto,

Try the latest version of Nero 9 if all you're doing is simple editing. I bet you'll be impressed how well it handles AVCHD natively.

I've seen numerous mentions of Nero on various threads here, and there are definitely many who seem to like it. I do recall one, though, where the interface was referred to as a "nightmare." I had another look at their site, and another complaint, that of the software becoming 'bloated' over the years, was evident. There were also other coments that it was fairly simple editor, compared to the more full-featured Veas products (MS and Pro).

Nevertheless, if Sony doesn't get their act together soon, I may give Nero a chance. Unfortunately, I found this on their site:
"AVCHD authoring and playback as well as MPEG-4 and BD-AV formats are not supported in the Nero 9 trial version."
Somewhat of a deal-killer for me.
--------------
ETA I had another look at Nero's support forums, and there are the same kinds of bugs and quirks when working with AVCHD files there, officially acknowledged by Nero, as I find with all the others I've mentioned. Not too encouraging...
------------------

DLCPhoto, have you tried premiere elements 7?
I haven't, nor has it really come on my radar as being something worth looking into. I'm not sure exactly why that is, but I have read virtually every thread on this forum for the last 6-9 months that concerns AVCHD editing, and I guess the Premiere products don't get consistently good comments.

But once again, I may have to give it another look.

I used the Trial version (full-featured!) of Sony Veas Movie Studio 9.0b Platinum and DVD Architect (not the Pro version, unfortunately), and really came to like it a lot. I'm really hoping that they'll fix the AVCHD rendering bug. And I'm also keeping my eye out for deals on Vegas Pro, which would likely solve all my problems, as well as actually take advantage of my 64-bit system (and not merely 'tolerate' it, like most others).

Thanks for the suggestions.

--------------
ETA I had another look at Nero's support forums, and there are the same kinds of bugs and quirks when working with AVCHD files there, officially acknowledged by Nero, as I find with all the others I've mentioned. Not too encouraging...
------------------


You'll find bugs/problems on ALL of them when it comes to native avchd editing. There is simply not a perfect NLE out there for this.

From my experience Sony Vegas Pro offers the best chance though. Not that it doesn't present crashing, bugs, and hissy fits with avchd (it has them), but rather because it presents a lot more in the way of alternatives and work arounds for the times that you do hit a brick wall.

Vegas Pro can work with native avchd. It can also work with intermediate codecs (whch is what I suggest you do), but if you get the full version then you also get the 8.1 64bit version for free..... so there is lots to work with in order to get around those ..... "problem times".

yep, just home video but we want it to look good! Just like the raw footage on the sdhc card. Yes, I will also get 64bit xp if I get a pc

I would forget XP64. It's a thing of the past and even the various software manufacturers are saying the same thing. Sony Vegas no longer officially recognizes XP64 along with a whole host of others.

If you're going to build a new machine either go with Vista64 or wait for windows7 (64bit). I presently run both (windows 7 beta) and they work well.

You'll find bugs/problems on ALL of them when it comes to native avchd editing. There is simply not a perfect NLE out there for this.

From my experience Sony Vegas Pro offers the best chance though. Not that it doesn't present crashing, bugs, and hissy fits with avchd (it has them), but rather because it presents a lot more in the way of alternatives and work arounds for the times that you do hit a brick wall.

Vegas Pro can work with native avchd. It can also work with intermediate codecs (whch is what I suggest you do), but if you get the full version then you also get the 8.1 64bit version for free..... so there is lots to work with in order to get around those ..... "problem times".

This is a good summation of the conclusions I've come to as well, bigbarney.

I'm continually checking Ebay and elsewhere for sales on the Pro version, as this is likely to be the best solution overall at this point for me - not perfect, as you mention, but the best of what's out there for AVCHD.

Too bad the $129 version from B&H is no longer available:( - that, combined with the $99 upgrade they now sell, would have been enabled a legitimate full version of Pro for $228, according to those who have taken advantage of this!

I'm continually checking Ebay and elsewhere for sales on the Pro version, as this is likely to be the best solution overall at this point for me - not perfect, as you mention, but the best of what's out there for AVCHD.



Be careful on Ebay. It is legal for a Vegas owner to sell an older version and get that license transferred over to a new owner, but more often than not what the new owner is not aware of is that this purchased version can not be used for an upgrade of any kind.

Be careful on Ebay...

Definitely!;)

Nevertheless, if Sony doesn't get their act together soon, I may give Nero a chance. Unfortunately, I found this on their site:
"AVCHD authoring and playback as well as MPEG-4 and BD-AV formats are not supported in the Nero 9 trial version."
Somewhat of a deal-killer for me.
--------------
ETA I had another look at Nero's support forums, and there are the same kinds of bugs and quirks when working with AVCHD files there, officially acknowledged by Nero, as I find with all the others I've mentioned. Not too encouraging...
------------------.

nero was free after rebates last week at frys... it has a video-accelerated media player, a great dvd burner program, and a better h.264 encoder than any of the editing packages in this thread... you can't go wrong with nero, even if you don't want to edit with it.

if you control the installation process correctly, it won't take over your system... as a downside, you might have to pay for some of the extras, but i can't remember the specifics on that.

bigbarney it appears with my quick research of cineform that it is for the "pro" apps that are available. Is this true or can it also be used with the non pro versions of Sony Vegas, PE7 or powerdirector 7? Also, I meant vista 64, not xp but thanks for correcting me! Can you explain how one does what you previously recommended: "Convert your avchd to a lossless intermediate then edit with it." Do you just take the raw avchd, use cineform to convert to a different format, then use vegas, pe7 or pd7 to edit the new cineform format, which is lossless? Then, burn to standard dvd in hd quality?

nero was free after rebates last week at frys... it has a video-accelerated media player, a great dvd burner program, and a better h.264 encoder than any of the editing packages in this thread... you can't go wrong with nero, even if you don't want to edit with it.



Well... I wouldn't exactly take it that far. It does have a good smart render system but you can only do BASIC editing in Nero.... nothing fancy.

I have also yet to see any evidence that it can do REAL encoding (not smart rendering) to 24Mb/s. In fact of the threads I have read Nero 9 smart renders at 24Mb/s until it hits something it actually has to render at which point the bitrate drops to 17 or so and then back up to 24 when it has finished rendering that particular section. Maybe it has been updated since then but it would be nice to know.



Vegas does NOT have smart rendering of avchd so it would not be a very good choice for those who wish merely to transfer simple cuts and such to disk.... Nero would surely be the better choice. On the other hand the editing is extremely detailed and rendering abilities for avc are in excess of 40Mb/s... although I'm not exactly sure why there would be a need to go that high.

edit: (I should point out that when I speak of Vegas it's the pro app.... I don't have that much experience with the non pro vegas)

bigbarney it appears with my quick research of cineform that it is for the "pro" apps that are available. Is this true or can it also be used with the non pro versions of Sony Vegas, PE7 or powerdirector 7? Also, I meant vista 64, not xp but thanks for correcting me! Can you explain how one does what you previously recommended: "Convert your avchd to a lossless intermediate then edit with it." Do you just take the raw avchd, use cineform to convert to a different format, then use vegas, pe7 or pd7 to edit the new cineform format, which is lossless? Then, burn to standard dvd in hd quality?

Cineform (as well as other intermediates) work for the pro apps (Cineform works on PP and Sony Vegas). The non pro apps don't have the ability to work with intermediates.

Cineform is a converter that can either capture/convert on the fly with HDV, or input avchd files from your hard drive and convert them (without disturbing the original file)
to AVI files which are then written to your hard drive... and of course later imported to you editor. Cineform also gives you a bunch of options if you wish to change resolution, deinterlace.... and other things.

The pro converter is quite expensive, but they do have a cheaper consumer version which is just a straight converter minus the options and such.

Vegas does NOT have smart rendering of avchd so it would not be a very good choice for those who wish merely to transfer simple cuts and such to disk.... Nero would surely be the better choice. On the other hand the editing is extremely detailed and rendering abilities for avc are in excess of 40Mb/s... although I'm not exactly sure why there would be a need to go that high.


the nero encoder will do 40Mbps h.264, no problem... i use vegas, but it's slow to encode anything... i'm not the only one who sees that:

"As regards the differences you and I experience with regard to Vegas speed, it is quite possible that the software scales itself differently on your "near minimum spec machine" versus the quadcore I use, perhaps dropping frames, lowering resolution during preview, etc. In terms of sheer speed, my experience with this specific hardware I am using ranks Nero as the fastest, Power Director 2nd place, Corel Video Studio X2 Pro as third, then ArcSoft Total Media, followed by Vegas. Premiere Elements does not support AVCHD up until the recently released version 7 which I have not purchased based on lackluster speed with HDV on prior versions.

My speed comment also reflects a fundemental issue worth also mentioning.......which is that Sony Vegas does not provide AVCHD smart rendering. As a result, the time required to do almost any end-to-end editing and authoring is hugely greater than a program like Power Director or Nero. The time difference is typically around 8.5 to 1, turning 15 minutes into two and a half hours for a typical project each time a new output is rendered.

So my perception of Vegas is heavily shaded by this major limitation.

Larry"
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/avchd-format-discussion/141027-affordable-transcoding-software-2.html

From your experience working with windows apps and avchd is the hd degradation noticeable to the human eye. If I record at 1920 X 1080 at 60i on my hf100, can i edit and then burn hd to standard dvd and not be able to see a difference in the quality between the original footage and the dvd version? I have concluded from apple users that apple's process and tools degradate the original footage after transcoding, editing and burning so that the human eye can notice the degradation.

the nero encoder will do 40Mbps h.264, no problem... i use vegas, but it's slow to encode anything... i'm not the only one who sees that:


So my perception of Vegas is heavily shaded by this major limitation.

Larry"

As Larry notes, his speed tests are based upon Nero's use of "Smart render".... which can either be a GREAT time saver.... or a totally useless feature depending on what you're doing.

An encoder with the ability to do no-recompress-rendering (smart rendering) is one that has the ability to recognize what has changed at the frame level on the time line (what must be fully re-encoded) and what hasn't changed (what can be copied... or "smart rendered").

From the VERY FEW threads I have read on Nero9 and full encoding, it has a great ability to "smart render".
A "smart rendered" clip at 24Mb/s will in fact come out at the other end unchanged at 24Mb/s. But when Nero's encoder hits something it ACTUALLY has to encode (like a transition for example... which CAN'T be "smart rendered"), the bit rate drops off. This confuses me because you claim that Nero can "will do 40Mbps h.264, no problem".

If the Nero encoder can encode to 40Mb/s then the bit rate would NOT drop when it actually had to encode something. The encoding rate would certainly slow down considerably because it now has to uncompress all frames and physically re-write them... but it continue on right through the transition at the bitrate you set (24Mb/s in the above case).

Could you please show me where it says Nero can encode to 40Mb/s?

Sony Vegas Movie Studio Platinum Pro 9.0b has a known bug where it chokes when rendering full HD (1920x1080-60i Dolby 5.1) mts files. This has remained unfixed for at least 6 months.I have not had this problem at all and I frequently use Vegas Platinum to render my SR11 files into 1080 60i with 5.1 sound. I have tried to find examples but they seem to refer to trial versions. Do you have a link to this bug?

BTW, IME, trial versions often pose limitations that don't exist in the full versions.

I have not had this problem at all and I frequently use Vegas Platinum to render my SR11 files into 1080 60i with 5.1 sound. I have tried to find examples but they seem to refer to trial versions. Do you have a link to this bug?

BTW, IME, trial versions often pose limitations that don't exist in the full versions.

Very interesting...

I'm not aware of any differences between the Trial version and the full version, except for the 30-day time limitation. I was occassionally able to do a full HD render as you refer to, but almost all of the time the program crashed - either with an error message, or more often the program would just disappear.

I've been monitoring this on Sony's Support forums, where the bug I refer to has been reported by multiple users, afaik with full registered versions. Here are a few sample links:

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=637018&Replies=5

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=631561&Replies=10

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=628782&Replies=7

If you're not encountering any problems along these lines, it would seem that you're the exception. With that in mind, what are the specifics on your system, in terms of hardware, OS, settings in Vegas (specifically the number of threads, etc.)?

I'm running Vista 64-bit, and as it's not "officially" supported, my difficulty could potentially be blamed on that. But this doesn't seem to be the case with those on the Sony forums, as far as I can see.

It would be great if something particular could be identified as the cause of this apparent bug - it would save me a lot of money!

ETA - I'd also be interested to know the precise selections you make when rendering - which encoder (Sony or Main Concept) in particular.

From your experience working with windows apps and avchd is the hd degradation noticeable to the human eye. If I record at 1920 X 1080 at 60i on my hf100, can i edit and then burn hd to standard dvd and not be able to see a difference in the quality between the original footage and the dvd version? I have concluded from apple users that apple's process and tools degradate the original footage after transcoding, editing and burning so that the human eye can notice the degradation.

that would be the case with imovie, which can't edit native avchd, and therefore transcodes everything to the aic intermediate codec.

if you were to use the apple prores codec(fcp), you'd see better image quality.

what usually happens is that after the editing is done, the video is re-encoded to the delivery format, be it blu-ray, web, sd dvd, etc... there can be drastic picture quality loss there, especially on the apple platform, because the encoding choice for many people is apple compressor, which sucks big time :D

since you mentioned going from hd to sd dvd, i should say that there will be a major loss of picture quality, with even the best software tools and practices... there just isn't nearly as much picture data in the sd video stream, the best you can hope for is to minimize the losses.

bickering posts removed

Very interesting...
...

I'm running Vista 64-bit, and as it's not "officially" supported, my difficulty could potentially be blamed on that. But this doesn't seem to be the case with those on the Sony forums, as far as I can see.

It would be great if something particular could be identified as the cause of this apparent bug - it would save me a lot of money!

ETA - I'd also be interested to know the precise selections you make when rendering - which encoder (Sony or Main Concept) in particular.I usually render using the MainConcept setting at 1920x1080 60i, 5.1 sound, 25 Mbps. If memory serves, I have also tried the Sony setting (1920x1080 etc). All without problem.

Files are typically 4 GB (about 20 minutes) for burning to DVD-R discs.

My gear is very standard. I have an Intel P8400 2.3GHz dual core with 3GB RAM. I have Vista 32 bit.

----

I'm going to try rendering with the Sony setting and see what happens...

Many thanks for the reply and info. I really find it amazing that you've basically had no problems, while I and others have been frustrated in rendering full HD .mts files.

I'm going to try rendering with the Sony setting and see what happens...

I'll be very interested to see what you find here. I reviewed some of the info I had accumulated previously, and found one item that suggested that it was Sony's AVC encoder that caused the crash, while the MainConcept one seemed to be working ok, at least for that one person.

Thanks again.

[QUOTE=August1991;15907086]
Files are typically 4 GB (about 20 minutes) for burning to DVD-R discs.

August1991, how is the video quality of the 20 minutes burned to dvd-r at 1920 x 1080 at 60i? Is there a big difference between the original footage and the footage now on dvd-r? And what are you playing it on? BD player or PS3?

I'll be very interested to see what you find here. I reviewed some of the info I had accumulated previously, and found one item that suggested that it was Sony's AVC encoder that caused the crash, while the MainConcept one seemed to be working ok, at least for that one person.I just did it with the Sony setting and the disc popped out with no problem.

August1991, how is the video quality of the 20 minutes burned to dvd-r at 1920 x 1080 at 60i? Is there a big difference between the original footage and the footage now on dvd-r? And what are you playing it on? BD player or PS3?I play the DVD-R disc on a Samsung BD-P1500 player and a Samsung 530 (1920x1080 with 60MHz refresh rate). To my eye, it looks as good as connecting the SR11 to the screen by mini-HDMI.

But since you guys are asking these questions, I'm going to do an A/B/C test with discs created by MainConcept, Sony settings and then direct to screen.

BTW, I use Sony Movie Studio (Vegas) Platinum 9.0b which retails for under $100US. (I'm more than happy with its editing features and I think the Platinum Pro Pack is an unnecessary upgrade.)

The Vegas Pro at about $400US includes DVD Architect Pro to author (add menus) BR discs but IMV, that's too much of a step.

I just did it with the Sony setting and the disc popped out with no problem.

Well, I'm stumped. You must have the magic touch!;)

BTW, I use Sony Movie Studio (Vegas) Platinum 9.0b which retails for under $100US. (I'm more than happy with its editing features and I think the Platinum Pro Pack is an unnecessary upgrade.)

The Vegas Pro at about $400US includes DVD Architect Pro to author (add menus) BR discs but IMV, that's too much of a step.

What do you use to actually burn the Disc? I assume you're using the Studio version of DVD Architect (which is part of Platinum), but if not, let me know.

In reference to your using the Sony setting, and the disc popping out, are you rendering to you hard drive first, and then using DVD Architect to burn, or are you rendering and burning directly to the DVD from within Movie Studio?

I'm just trying to figure out what you're doing right that so many others are doing wrong, or at least differently!:confused::confused:

Thanks for taking the time to explore this for us!

Well, I'm stumped. You must have the magic touch!;)No magic touch, but I must make a correction.

In Sony Vegas Platinum 9.0b, if I choose the Sony setting to create a BR file on my DVD-R disc, the project renders and the disc pops out and I can play it on my Samsung BR 1500 player.

If I choose the MainConcept setting, the project renders and the disc pops out, but I cannot (NOT) play the disc on my Samsung player.

is the quality on the dvd-r the same as hooking the camcorder directly to your tv?

No magic touch, but I must make a correction.

In Sony Vegas Platinum 9.0b, if I choose the Sony setting to create a BR file on my DVD-R disc, the project renders and the disc pops out and I can play it on my Samsung BR 1500 player.

So you're burning the DVD-R directly from within Sony Movie Studio, rather than using DVD-Architect Studio Version, or any other burner? That might offer a clue to your success compared with other's failures. A couple of follow-up questions:

1. What files, if any, do you end up with on your hard drive when you do this?

2. Finally, can you also successfully render a full-resolution mts file (1920x1080, Dolby 5.1, using Sony's encoder) to your hard drive (choosing render from the menus, not burn to BlueRay)? This is where many people run into the program crashing when the Sony encoder is chosen, and at least some can successfully render if they select the MainConcept encoder. And if you also see a crash when doing this, does selecting MainConcept lead to successful rendering?

If I can be sure that I can consistently and successfuly render mts files with Movie Studio 9.0b, possibly by just using the MainConcept AVC encoder, then I'll go ahead and purchase it, and avoid the added expense of getting the Pro version (which is overkill for my limited needs).

If I choose the MainConcept setting, the project renders and the disc pops out, but I cannot (NOT) play the disc on my Samsung player.

This I have heard before, that playing Sony rendered AVCHD Discs (DVD-R media) is hit and miss in terms of whether they'll play on a given BR player, with either Sony Player or PS3 being the most reliable in this respect.

So you're burning the DVD-R directly from within Sony Movie Studio, rather than using DVD-Architect Studio Version, or any other burner?For BR files, I use Sony Vegas Platinum to burn the BR files on DVD-R SL media (discs). These discs have no menus. The DVD Architect 4.5 bundled with SVP can only author (add menus to) DVD discs. To author BR files (and add menus), you need DVD Architect Pro 5.0 which is only available bundled with Sony Vegas Pro.

Incidentally, I downloaded the free trial of Vegas Pro to try DVD Architect Pro 5.0 and it kept crashing. This is one reason that I wonder whether the trial versions are not identical to the purchased versions.

You can get Sony Vegas Platinum with DVD Architect 4.5 for about 90$. IMHO, that's a very good deal for a sophisticated editing package. At $400, Sony Vegas Pro is simply too much of a step in price point - particularly because blank BR discs are still pricey.

1. What files, if any, do you end up with on your hard drive when you do this?An iso file.

2. Finally, can you also successfully render a full-resolution mts file (1920x1080, Dolby 5.1, using Sony's encoder) to your hard drive (choosing render from the menus, not burn to BlueRay)?I think this is possible. I'll try it.

If I can be sure that I can consistently and successfuly render mts files with Movie Studio 9.0b, possibly by just using the MainConcept AVC encoder, then I'll go ahead and purchase it, and avoid the added expense of getting the Pro version (which is overkill for my limited needs).As I noted above, I can render using the MainConcept encoder but the BR files (on DVD-R media) won't play on my Samsung 1500.

When I use the Sony encoder, the BR files on DVD-R SL media play on my Samsung without problem. To my eye, and watching them on my Samsung 52", the disc files are identical to connecting my SR11 directly to the screen by mini-HDMI. Of course, I can do all the fancy edits with Sony Vegas Platinum.

1. What files, if any, do you end up with on your hard drive when you do this?An iso file.
I wonder if this is the key to why you're not crashing - you're creating an ISO file which is then burnt to DVD-R, rather than rendering an .mts file, which is what others are doing when they crash.

2. Finally, can you also successfully render a full-resolution mts file (1920x1080, Dolby 5.1, using Sony's encoder) to your hard drive (choosing render from the menus, not burn to BlueRay)?
I think this is possible. I'll try it.

Thanks - this might be the definitive test. It seems most everyone crashes when doing this with the Sony encoder, and some seem to work around this by using the MainConcept encoder. I'll be anxiously awaiting your experience!:)

August1991 thank you for all the testing and wonderful info!

Thanks - this might be the definitive test. It seems most everyone crashes when doing this with the Sony encoder, and some seem to work around this by using the MainConcept encoder. I'll be anxiously awaiting your experience!:)Sorry for taking time to answer.

Sony Vegas Platinum works with a *.vf project. This project can then be converted into final results. I used a project to produce final results in four ways.

1) I tried "rendering" to an *.avc file (using Sony AVC format). This worked but I assume the file is only useful if imported into DVD Architect Pro for authoring in a Blu-ray disc.

2) I tried "Make Movie" and then the "Save to Hard Drive" option. This supposedly created a *.mp4 file but I never found it! Strange.

3) I tried "Make Movie" and then "Burn it... ", "Blu-ray Disc" and finally, "Render image only". This works, and creates an *.iso file.

4) I tried "Make Movie" and then "Burn it... " and "Blu-ray Disc" options but I chose "Render image and burn". This created a disc.

Note that I am not burning to a 25 GB Bluray disc. I am burning to a 4.7 GB SL DVD-R disc but the files are Blu-ray standard (1920x1080 with the correct file structure), playable on a Blu-ray player as Blu-ray files. Of course, BR videos on DVD discs contain about 20 minutes of footage maximum.

1) I tried "rendering" to an *.avc file (using Sony AVC format). This worked but I assume the file is only useful if imported into DVD Architect Pro for authoring in a Blu-ray disc.


Actually a AVC file will also work in TSmuxer. If you create a separate audio file you could then import the audio and the avc into Tsmuxer and create a M2TS

The M2TS could then be imported to Ulead Movie Factory 6 for a smart render to disk.

Sorry for taking time to answer.

No problem - I/we appreciate your time.

1) I tried "rendering" to an *.avc file (using Sony AVC format). This worked but I assume the file is only useful if imported into DVD Architect Pro for authoring in a Blu-ray disc.

When you select Sony AVC, doesn't this create an "*.m2ts" file, not "*.avc"? It's the m2ts file rendering which seems to cause SMVS9 to crash. Could you clarify this?

One reason for wanting to render an m2ts file is that you can then use Picture Motion Browser to transfer this file back to your camera. This way, you can edit your movie, and then put back in your camera for playback, avoiding the necessity of having a PS3 or other BlueRay player.

2) I tried "Make Movie" and then the "Save to Hard Drive" option. This supposedly created a *.mp4 file but I never found it! Strange.

Which template was used when you tried this option? That's the key. Did it complete the process? When SMVS9 crashes, many times there are no error messages, it simply disappears without a trace!

When you select Sony AVC, doesn't this create an "*.m2ts" file, not "*.avc"? It's the m2ts file rendering which seems to cause SMVS9 to crash. Could you clarify this?It creates an *.avc file. I tried changing the suffix, before rendering, to *.m2ts but Sony Vegas Platinum 9 just changes it back to *.avc. I tried opening it in Sony PMB without success.

You could try bigbarney's workaround above.

One reason for wanting to render an m2ts file is that you can then use Picture Motion Browser to transfer this file back to your camera. This way, you can edit your movie, and then put back in your camera for playback, avoiding the necessity of having a PS3 or other BlueRay player.Makes sense.

Which template was used when you tried this option? That's the key. Did it complete the process? When SMVS9 crashes, many times there are no error messages, it simply disappears without a trace!If you choose the "Make Movie" option but then choose the "Save it to my hard drive". It renders using Sony AVC as a *.mp4 file.

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I just noticed another rendering option (under "Render As") and then "AVCHD NTSC 1920x1080 5.1". This produces a *.m2ts file (playable in PMB).

SVP9 certainly doesn't lack for rendering options/formats.

I'll add that for these experiments, I have been using a 40 second clip that typically takes about 7 minutes to render. Longer clips may not perform the same way.

I just noticed another rendering option (under "Render As") and then "AVCHD NTSC 1920x1080 5.1". This produces a *.m2ts file (playable in PMB).

Yup! That's the one. I believe that is the one that gives everybody the problem. And I think there should be an option in there, where you can customize the settings for that rendering, where you choose the Sony or Main Concept codec. Generally, the Sony one crashes, and the Main Concept doesn't, at least according to some users.

Your 40-second test clip may or may not be enough to recreate the crash, though. Many have reported that small clips are ok, but longer ones generate the crash. But we can at least see what happens with your 40-second one, and go from there.

Keep us posted, and thanks again!

Note that I am not burning to a 25 GB Bluray disc. I am burning to a 4.7 GB SL DVD-R disc but the files are Blu-ray standard (1920x1080 with the correct file structure), playable on a Blu-ray player as Blu-ray files. Of course, BR videos on DVD discs contain about 20 minutes of footage maximum.
In fact, unfortunately, the disks that are created using this method won't play in, for example Panasonic BD35 players: they may on Sony players... It's because they are created with a header problem! The work around is here and involves creating the ISO, mapping it to a virtual disk, patching the image and then finally creating the real disk: the thread discusses HDMV rather than AVCHD sources, but the procedure is the same.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15285018&postcount=1662

In fact, unfortunately, the disks that are created using this method won't play in, for example Panasonic BD35 players: they may on Sony players... I have a Samsung BP1500 and I use DVD-R blanks.

Keep us posted, and thanks again!I'll try with a longer clip.

Your 40-second test clip may or may not be enough to recreate the crash, though. Many have reported that small clips are ok, but longer ones generate the crash. But we can at least see what happens with your 40-second one, and go from there.I just did a 17 minute clip that rendered to a 2 GB m2ts file with 1920x1080 5.1 sound without problem. PMB plays the rendered file perfectly.

I shut down everything else on my laptop and it took about 2 hours to render.

I just did a 17 minute clip that rendered to a 2 GB m2ts file with 1920x1080 5.1 sound without problem. PMB plays the rendered file perfectly.

I shut down everything else on my laptop and it took about 2 hours to render.

Many thanks for the follow-up.

And I assume this was using the Sony codec, rather than the Main Concept one?

If so, you're succeeding for some reason, where so many others seem to have Sony VMS9b crash when rendering the m2ts files. It's probably some odd mix of hardware and software that causes the crash in a sporadic fashion.

Very frustrating, as Sony has been completely unresponsive on this issue. Multiple reports of crashes are reported on their support forum, and have been for many months. But no acknowledgement or fix has been offered.

Thanks again for the help in working through this. I'm still tempted to give SVMS9 another try, but I'd prefer that Sony post a fix to this very common problem.

Many thanks for the follow-up.

And I assume this was using the Sony codec, rather than the Main Concept one?Yes, I used the Sony rendering codec (compression).

If it's any consolation, I can understand the frustration. I recently rendered a 20 minute BR format (BDMV) to a DVD-R and while SVP9 created the *.iso file, I had a burn error message at the end. When I tried later to use the *.iso file to burn an image (using Nero), I got a message that there was an error in the burning.

So, I then re-rendered the project using SVP9 and the disc was burned without problem.

This is the first time that I have had such a glitch using this particular workflow. For my successful try, I shut unnecessary processes down and left my laptop to run alone at night.

BTW, I'm now having problems with my BR player (Samsung P1500) so I am unable to test these latest burns. Technology!

If so, you're succeeding for some reason, where so many others seem to have Sony VMS9b crash when rendering the m2ts files. It's probably some odd mix of hardware and software that causes the crash in a sporadic fashion.Dunno. Maybe I should add that I use a Sony Vaio (?).

For my successful try, I shut unnecessary processes down and left my laptop to run alone at night.

Maybe I should add that I use a Sony Vaio (?).

It could well be factors like these that would determine success/failure.

It's so frustrating that Sony is aware of this fairly significant glitch which seems to effect at least a large number of users, and has been for many months, and yet no fix or patch is forthcoming.

Thanks again for all your help, and hope you get your BR player problems resolved.