Almost Ready to Pull the Trigger - Do I go Epson 6500 UB, Optoma 806 or Panasonic 3k? [Text View]

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lullg

02-22-09, 06:06 PM

Bujee1

02-23-09, 03:57 AM

What are you going to do about your window? No projector can handle that much ambient light. Even a plasma will wash out in that room without some light control. Where do you live ?
On the Sun??

d james

02-23-09, 06:03 AM

Alright, I've been lurking for about 3 months and I *think* I'm ready to jump in. My wife and I just bought a new house and I've got her on board with a PJ, but I want to make sure we do this right. A little background:

1) This is going to be our main TV. We will be moving our old 32" LCD into the Gym, and we have a 14" CRT in the bedroom, so clearly this is going to be what we're watching most of our Cooking (her) / Sci-Fi (me) shows, plus all of our movies.

2) We have a LOT of ambient light in our living room - as you can see here:

http://www.greglull.com/light-sources.jpg

3) We have a ridiculously large nook, which even a 120" screen wouldn't fill up:

http://www.greglull.com/screen-size.jpg

Note our couch is about 15' away from the TV and we're able to mount it almost anywhere on that ceiling.

I've never owned a projector, or even interacted with one other than at the occasional sports bar. I'll admit that I'm probably more excited about the project than actually watching TV, but that's just who I am. ;)

I've narrowed this down to a couple possible options:

Optoma 806
This seems like the clear winner for a high ambient lighting situation. I've been playing around with the PJ people calculator and it looks like the ONLY projector that can support a 120" screen with a decent amount of ambient light. I've been laser focused on lumens because of how big and bright this room is.

The other PJs that made the list:

Epson 6100

Just 200 Lumens less, about the same price range. Seems there are a lot more people with these who love them, which is good. No Rainbow effect, although I've never experienced this problem and we should be pretty far away. In short, same class projector but more online support and potentially a little quieter of a fan. Overall a little less risky of an online purchase.

Panasonic AE3000

Everyone seems to love this PJ. The lumens are the lowest of the bunch I'm considering. If we went high gain screen and go a little smaller we could probably make this work, but I'm not sure if the features and picture quality justify it. It's also more expensive than the other two options above. The lens memory for CIH intrigues me, but if I'm struggling just get enough lumens to fight for a 16:9 I'm not sure I should even mess with 2.35:1

Epson 6500 UB
Great reviews! Seems like it'll be a better picture with better contrast. Takes a big hit on lumens though (1600). Supposedly the IF is weird too.

Screen

All of this talk of lumens bring up up the question "why not go with a high gain screen"? Honestly I have no idea. ;) Viewing angle is an issue, as we'll want to be able to watch TV while cooking in the kitchen (maybe a 50% angle?). That rules out retro reflective.

I was thinking maybe we buy the elite powergain 1.8 120" screen (~$500). It's angular reflective and 1.8 gain seems good to me.

Another option would be to buy some Designer DW Laminate and roll with a DIY screen (gain is supposedly like 1.25) until I get a better sense of what I need. Any ideas on that?

Additional Concerns
I'd really to be able to play games on this - I've seen a little talk and image delays, but I can't find specifics for the Optoma. Do I need to be worried about the screen seeming "unresponsive" because there's a delay from the Wii/PS3 and the PJ?

Connectivity: We've got Analog Cable TV, a Wii and a PC. A blue ray device of some kind will be coming down the line. I've been under the assumption that I can "buy my way out" of connectivity issues by getting a receiver, but perhaps this is naive? Any advice here would be helpful as well.

Anyways, really any help or insight would be greatly appreciated. Even something like "are you crazy, just go buy a 60" LCD" is fine too. ;)

Thanks!
1.Ugh, I hate watching my 40 inch tv from even 10 ft away, I guess I'm spoiled now. I feel like I have to squint watching from that distance to make out all the details. So you'll really appreciate the having a big screen.
2. Your room is similar to my setup, we have two 8 foot french doors and an 8foot window on the other wall (I think the room is 30x25). As long as you have curtains you won't have any problems with the light from them. If it isn't direct light from the sun, you can probably leave a little light in so you don't feel like your in a cave, thats what we do. We move the screen around all over the place and I find any wall works with the windows and doors. That solar tube, which I assume is just like a sky window shouldn't present to much problem, you could always velcro a small cover over it if need be, but I don't think it will cause to much trouble as its aiming down and not very big (at least from the picture) I can turn on all 6 of my ceiling lights and it doesn't kill the enjoyment of the picture. I have some pictures of all my lights on, plus a seperate lamp to demonstrate how light effects the picture. I also have some pics of open shades from the 8 foot window. the room looks much darker than it actually was as the sun was shinning directly in on the closed shades pics, which was still very bright, anyway it will give a good idea for you. http://s179.photobucket.com/albums/w291/djames455/epson%206500ub/?start=20
3.We have a 135" screen and enjoy the size very much, I almost went with a 150, but the thing would almost touch the ground, and that might have been to much to look at, plus it would be lower than any tables in the room causing possible shadows. I have turned the tv on numerous times to compare the same signal and even with the backlight up all the way on tv, the big screen is still as bright and brighter than tv on brightest mode.

Keep in mind when reviewing projectors that the lumen spec they claim is usually different than what it produces. Epson seems to be one of the few pjs that produces more than advertised. On projectoreviews they got just slightly more lumens from the 6500ub than 6100, although they are probably about even. The 6500ub produced almost 2200 in brightest mode from factory, so its plenty bright for daytime watching.

I say get the pj then get some free samples from screen places, then buy. With a da lite hp, it has a restricted viewing angle, but once outside that angle it won't drop past a 1.0, so if you get a 1.0 screen, even from that angle outside the screen, your going to be in the same boat as you would if you had the HP screen. If I buy another it will be hp, as its not much more and sheds ambient light much better. The only problem, is if you mount from the ceiling you'll lose gain as well, its better to have pj mounted eye level.

The lens memory is a neat feature, but something you can adjust yourself if the pj isn't mounted on ceiling. When I watch a 2.35 movie, I jsut raise the screen up until it gets rid of the black bar on bottom, then all I'm left with is the top bar, which isn't to distracting, although I was thinking of making a quick black velcro masking for that. Its not necessary as the blacks are really good, but it does trick the eye a bit having darker blacks up there.

I don't notice any delay with video games even with FI on, nor any lipsync issues with movies which I find strange and I keep FI on high with every movie. As far as FI not working right, it does have a firmware update coming, so thats not a problem. I watched several tvs at CC with FI and they all looked like the FI on my pj, except some were a little better at fast movement. I enjoy FI very much and it works for most movies, a few not so well, but I'd say 95% of them for sure look great, I never turn it off because it looks so good. We love the 6500, it has exceed our expectation.

If you don't have any type of reciever you will need one as these pjs don't have built in speakers. A new reciever with HDMI could simplfy by having everything go into it and one HDMI out, but its not necessary, I have a pretty clean setup with a 10 year old receiver with pc, dvd, vcr, reciever and cable box. You'll have wires going in and out no matter what, so a new reciever won't change that.

Oh by the way, you would be crazy to go buy a 60 inch tv:D

SeaNile

02-23-09, 10:41 AM

Awesome thread and great info. I have a room under construction with a lot of light as well. I plan on heavy drapery, roll down shades and painting the walls dark and even painting the ceiling something other than white. I have a 126" Carada screen in BW and am leaning towards the 6500UB as well.

--JK

lullg

02-23-09, 01:44 PM

Bujee:

Where do you live ? On the Sun??

Thank you, this made me L O L. ;) We live in Las Vegas, which is pretty much like living on the sun sometimes. we're going to put curtains up, similar to d james.

d james:

That's great info - thank you very much! I did a little hunting and you're absolutely right, it seems that the spec and what is actually measured are two very different things! So it appears that the 6500, 6100 and 806 actually have very similar lumen outputs.

The Projector Review seemed to think that I'd have a problem filling a 120" screen with a 6500 UB, but you don't have that problem eh?

I have an older receiver that doesn't support HDMI. I guess I could get by with component cables until it's time to upgrade.

One last question about the mount: do I need to think about anything when looking for a ceiling mount? Right now I've been basing my shopping off of what they look like, but perhaps there are features I'm not aware of?

Thanks!

vili

02-23-09, 01:49 PM

I have an Espon 6100 in my living room and during the day there is significant ambient light and it looks good still. I don't have any direct light shining on the screen so much, but there are alot of windows that let light in and also the lights on and it is still looks good on everything but the darkest of movies.

d james

02-23-09, 03:35 PM

Bujee:

Thank you, this made me L O L. ;) We live in Las Vegas, which is pretty much like living on the sun sometimes. we're going to put curtains up, similar to d james.

d james:

That's great info - thank you very much! I did a little hunting and you're absolutely right, it seems that the spec and what is actually measured are two very different things! So it appears that the 6500, 6100 and 806 actually have very similar lumen outputs.

The Projector Review seemed to think that I'd have a problem filling a 120" screen with a 6500 UB, but you don't have that problem eh?

I have an older receiver that doesn't support HDMI. I guess I could get by with component cables until it's time to upgrade.

One last question about the mount: do I need to think about anything when looking for a ceiling mount? Right now I've been basing my shopping off of what they look like, but perhaps there are features I'm not aware of?

Thanks!I don't have a problem filling the screen and I didn't have a problem filling it with my hd70 1000 lumen, although it was alot darker, it reminded me more of a theater screen. With this new pj the screen reminds me of a gaint LCD or plasma tv. I think Art likes a nice bright image and one that represents the standard lumen output people look for, which I think is around 16-18ftl I believe movie theaters hover in the same area 14-18ftl. He may also be factoring in bulb dimming over time. I know I can't watch movies in the brightest modes because its to much stress on the eyes from being to bright. The colors are accurate enough where if I lose enough lumen output one day, I wouldn't hesitate to use the brighter modes (which i use for daytime or having lights on). As it stands right now it seems to be on par with the LCD even in its dimmest mode (no lights on), so its got plenty of power. My old pj was much dimmer than the LCD and could never be as bright and yet it looked fine for movies. The 6500 has alot of pop and wow with nice colors. One of the reasons I took some pics with the tv on was to demonstrate how bright it is compared to LCD tv, and as you can see from those pics, it looks just as bright. I've played with greater than 150 inch and it still looks the same. The only difference with going bigger is the pixels are more spread out and don't appear as sharp as say a 65 inch size. Thats why I always tell people to get the pj then the screen becuase some people just want brighter screens than others. you can play with size after you get it. You can also buy some budget blackout curtain material, which is no different in appearance than regular scren, you can go as big as 110" 16x9 or bigger for 2.35 and its cheap for a temporary screen, 4-5 bucks a yard. I paid 16 and some change for my 110" with tax included. This is one way to have screen before you make up your mind.

Having had both DLP and LCD, I can honestly say I like DLPs for their single panel non convergance issues, but love LCD for better placement and lens shift, and greater punch. The DLP seemed slightly more film-like, but I'd take the LCD over it because of its other advantages. Either one you go with I think you'll enjoy

Check out bulb life and bulb replacement cost as well because some manufacturers don't even say how long a bulb will last, and some are much more expensive. I went with epson in part because of this. They claim 4000 hours even in bright mode, plus 150 bucks cheaper than previous bulbs-which I hope is true. I also like epsons warranty of next day air replacement and no shipping costs to user. Others make you wait for a repair and charge you the bill for shipping.

Ceiling mounts all depends on what you want, some people feel more comfortable with paying more since it will be holding up an expensive peice of equipment. I don't use one myself as I have my pj in an old antique cabinet, but from what I see, there are some mounts that cost as little as 18 bucks that work fine. Just so long as the welds are good and done right, it shouldn't come apart. Some have said that some mounts only have 3 mounting points where others have 4 or 5, which sounds better to me. In the respective pj user threads, you'll find lots of people discussing what they use. I'd look into those threads after you decide on what pj to go with. Personally I think ne of the differences might be function such as beig able to swivle the pj more or some other extra features that the cheap ones won't have. Might make things easier for better placement.

How far back do you plan to mount it? We didn't go ceiling route because of having to deal with the hassle of routing all the wires and not being able to move the screen around when moving the room around and we can close the cabinet when not in use. Anyway, I'd mount it closer that way you get maximum brightness for the bigger screen, further back gives better contrast sacrificing brightness. With lens shift you don't have to mount it directly in the center of the room

lullg

02-23-09, 06:20 PM

How far back do you plan to mount it? We didn't go ceiling route because of having to deal with the hassle of routing all the wires and not being able to move the screen around when moving the room around and we can close the cabinet when not in use. Anyway, I'd mount it closer that way you get maximum brightness for the bigger screen, further back gives better contrast sacrificing brightness. With lens shift you don't have to mount it directly in the center of the room

I already have a pull cable going from my wall outlet to around the area where I think the PJ will live. We stuck a standard 120 up there too just to be sure.

Case in point, we can pretty much put it anywhere we want. From what I've read it seems like closer is better for lumens, although it seems like too close and you might "notice" the pj, which is no good. I think ideally we'd have it a couple feet in front of our couch, which is 14 feet or so.

I suppose we could go a little off center if we wanted to keep it out of the way - do you lose picture quality if you move it off the horizontal axis?

d james

02-24-09, 04:42 PM

I already have a pull cable going from my wall outlet to around the area where I think the PJ will live. We stuck a standard 120 up there too just to be sure.

Case in point, we can pretty much put it anywhere we want. From what I've read it seems like closer is better for lumens, although it seems like too close and you might "notice" the pj, which is no good. I think ideally we'd have it a couple feet in front of our couch, which is 14 feet or so.

I suppose we could go a little off center if we wanted to keep it out of the way - do you lose picture quality if you move it off the horizontal axis?
Sounds like you have a nice setup. If you have lens shift, then you won't lose pq, only if you use keystoning. I have mine off to the side using maximum lens shift, and its a nice feature. The reason I say mounting it off to the side, was maybe if its mouted over to the right, you could spin the pj so that it faces another wall, if you got sick of it being on that one wall. You might want to check out what people say about pj noise, because with my 6500 I have read of people complaining that it is louder when ceiling mounted from the noise bouncing off the ceiling. I suppose you could build a box around the pj to stop it, but some pjs that you are looking at might be beter at the noise issue. I sit right in front of mine and can't hear it, but ceiling mounting is obviously different.

gwlaw99

02-24-09, 05:53 PM

You should read the reviews for lumens and not the manufacturer specs. From www.projectorreviews.com

HD806 Maximum lumens
Cinema: 1623 lumens @ 6594K
Bright: 1475 lumens @ 6496K
TV: 1330 lumens @ 7868K
sRGB: 1534 lumens @ 6557K
User: 1746 lumens @ 6447K

Home Cinema 6500UB Projector - Uncalibrated:

TheaterBlack1 (best mode): 682 lumens
TheaterBlack2: 623 lumens
Theater: 715 lumens
x.v.color: 736 lumens
Natural: 778 lumens
LvingRoom: 1688 lumens
Dynamic: 2175 lumens

So the Epson can do as much or ore lumens in it's brightest modes

The 6500 is also brighter than the 6100 in several modes
Theater Black 2= 684 @ 6248
Theater= 739 @ 7884
Dynamic= 2057 @ 6838
LivingRoom= 1581 @ 8539
Natural= 743 @ 6783
x.v.Color= 540 @ 6449

rajupatel

02-25-09, 12:33 AM

gerard143

02-25-09, 11:30 PM

just installed an epson 6100.

in dynamic mode its quite bright.

i can give you more info about it, just wicked tired right now, gotta get some rest. 12hr workday 2morrow.

gerard143

02-25-09, 11:32 PM

few more pics

d james

02-26-09, 01:52 AM

D James, GREAT Explanation with actual pictures of your setting for Lullg's issue. I have a similar story. I am converting lighted (Medium Ambient) living room into Home Theater (dual usage). We primarily watch Movies at nighttime where I can easily control ambient light, though daytime sports watching, it will not be possible to completely block out ambient light. Since I have a 20’ throw back distance limitations, I have decided to buy Epson 6100 or 6500 PJ due to 1800 Lumens and 18K contrast ratio. (I hope I am making the right choice. Feel free to share your thoughts on PJ purchase).
The MAIN question is; do I need to buy White or Grey screen with what Gain level? Have not decided on the screen manufacturer, but considering buying MOTORIZED, Tab-Tensioned screen. (May be Draper – Premier with M1300 at 1.2 Gain). Any suggestions on a screen selection??? RajuPatelBefore you buy either of those projectors I would go into bestbuy and look at a tv with the frame interpolation, this one feature was a big reason why I went with the 6500ub over the 6100. I had previously seen FI on tv with news and lame demonstrations, but once I saw it in action with a movie, I was sold. If you can watch it compared to a tv without it you will see the difference. Do yourself a favor and make sure its playing a blu ray because thats when its most apparant and amazing. I went out and bought over 50 hd movies because of how much I love this feature. Some people hate, so if you are one then spending the extra money might not be worth it for you, but the added brightness, FI, darker blacks might be.

A tensioned screen is nice because it will keep away wrinkles which make the picture have a funny look when the camera is panning. On my cheapy non-tensioned screen Its not bad, but I notice how it effects the screen every once in a while. I don't see the wrinkles just the effect it has on the picture.
I wouldn't go grey because the blacks are still very good and it will only dim down the picture, and if you plan on using it in the daytime, the blacks will suck regardless, so I'd just go with white. I'll have to dig out my screen samples and take some pictures to see how it affects them, but from playing around with them from memory I didn't like the grey because of dimmer picture.

After having my da-lite HP 2.8 gain sample I'm a pretty sold on it, the thing works great with ambient light and doesn't show texture like my 1.0 screen does. With this bright pj the texture comes out so much it reminds me of being a kid watching home movies on the old projectors and seeing the texture. If your ceiling mounting than you'll need a screen thats non retroreflective, I don't remember off hand what they are called, but there are screens that have high gain that can be used with ceiling mounting. I'd try and get something with at least 1.8 gain because you will benefit during those daytime viewing days.

Even though it doesn't look like it in my pics, there is still alot of light that comes through that I can't get rid of either, and the picture still looks good, however it would be more satisfactory to be able to leave a window open to light for sporting events, and having a high gain screen would've helped. I bought my screen before finding out about the high gain ones.

rajupatel

02-26-09, 03:29 AM

DJames
Thank you for your suggestions on 6100 vs. 6500. I will definitely check them out.
RP

lullg

03-03-09, 12:59 PM

ok, I'm sold on the 6500 UB, but I still need to sort out just how bad this PJ is going to look during the day. Does anyone have additional screenies with PJs in the light? I know it's going to look a little washed out, I know the blacks aren't going to be great and overall an LCD or plasma will be better, but I'd be great to get a sense of just how much better.

Thanks!

gerard143

03-03-09, 01:20 PM

both the 6100 and 6500 are very bright projectors. anywhere near that price range you'd be hard pressed to really find one much brighter. if you put the projector right next to a sliding glass door with no shading you might not be happy. but it will handle ambient light fairly well for a projector.

gerard143

03-03-09, 01:21 PM

as for a 2.8 gain screen , i've never viewed that specific screen but that is a pretty high gain screen. i dont know if i'd wanna go that high.

lullg

03-04-09, 04:28 PM

Alright - I just ordered the Epson 6500 UB. I'll create another thread once I get it to let people know how it turns out.

Thanks for all of the help!

smoke90

03-05-09, 10:57 PM

you know I am at my fourth Home theater. I will give you the following advice.
My first HT was in my leaving room (1200 sqft) with many big windows door like you.
All the speakers, wires, projector screen is a pain in a living/dinning

If you have a basement build your HT dedicated room.
You will be able to position your speaker exactly where they need to be.
you will be able to add a big Subs, the projector can be mounted on the celing and won't bother anyone.
And the dark room will allow you to have a wonderfull image.

A plasma is IMO the best to watch TV. You can have a 52" plasma for just over $1000.
I am pretty sure that with your set up you will be very soon disapointed even with the best Projector.

FYI even with my plasma I have to pull the blind during the afternoon.
I have to buy some special wood blind to stop much of the light.

my HT is in the basement and if I want to watch a movie during the day, even with only three small windows in an underground basement I have to add curtain and it is still not as good as during the night.
For me a projector is better for movie watching than any plasma but it must be with nearly 100% dark room.

lullg

03-06-09, 01:10 AM

bri1270

03-06-09, 07:29 AM

For me a projector is better for movie watching than any plasma but it must be with nearly 100% dark room.

That's for you. I have a projector in my family room, and I wouldn't go back to a plasma only situation for anything...I have a pull down 92" HP screen with a Sharp DT-500. My plasma is mounted on the wall and the screen pulls down in front. We have blackout curtains which block more than enough light for me to enjoy the projector with mid day sun shining outside. And at night time, even better. The plasma is off. As a matter of fact, the plasma is only there so my daughter's can watch tv. When they grow up, the plasma is gone, and it's a fixed screen.

Point is, we're all different. I don't need it to be completely dark to enjoy the projector, and maybe to OP won't either.

vili

03-06-09, 07:56 AM

Projection is the only way to go. I replaced my TV in my living room with an Epson 6100 and a 125" screen and couldn't go back to a measely 50-60" that other sets provide. You will not be disappointed with your pj!

smoke90

03-06-09, 12:21 PM

FF2Skip

03-06-09, 07:04 PM

1. A plasma is IMO the best to watch TV.

2. You can have a 52" plasma for just over $1000.

3. For me a projector is better for movie watching than any plasma but it must be with nearly 100% dark room.

1. In a lot of cases, true.

2. #1 couldn't be true if #2 is true. That would be a piece of crap plasma.

3a. True.

3b. Not necessarily. For optimum results, sure, but even with some light, large screen projections add a theater feel that just cannot be duplicated by plasma, and certainly not by LCD's.

I appreciate the information in this thread. I'm considering adding a projector to our "theater" room, and I have zero hands-on with actual implementation of a projector setup. Threads like these really help folks like me.

deez

03-06-09, 07:36 PM

I agree it's all about choice.
I should have said that I love bright room and hate dark room. I always open the blind that my wife close.
this is why I want a Plasma or LCD for TV watching.

Another point is that our TV is on a minimum of 6 to 8 hours per day.

The HT room with the PJ is just for movies watching 3 to 4 times a week for the duration of the movie.

Uh no. I totally disagree and I have had at least 7 large flat screens. While I love plasma there is no substituting HD on a large screen. Period. I had a 58 inch Panny and my HD70 projector at the same time. My plan was to use the HD70 for movie watching at night and the panny during the day for regular TV. I installed a electric screen that would come down in front of the Panny plasma for that purpose. The problem was I never stopped watching the projector!!
I sold the Panny and have never looked back. Let me do some math for you:

103" plasma= $120,000.00

106Inch 720p Front projector and screen=$1,200.00

I think I have made my point.

PS- You dont need a 100% dark room...not with the lumens these things put out today.......

Bujee1

03-06-09, 08:48 PM

I have to agree. I had the family over for Superbowl. We watched on a projector upstairs in the theater with the lights on and downstairs in the family room. A good time had by all.

astrocyte74

03-07-09, 02:37 AM

If you can wait, the benq w6000 looks pretty good as well. (just started a thread in the >$3000 forum) Estimated price is $2500.

beekermartin

03-07-09, 02:44 PM

I have seen a Panasonic 720p plasma for less than a $1000.00. The Panny 720p plasma's are an excellent flat screen as long as your sitting over 8' away. I believe they are being discontinued soon so grab one while you can. I've seen them at BB for $899!

d james

03-07-09, 05:58 PM

OH man, you can't make a post like this just 36 hours after I order my pj! :eek:

Honestly though, I was really on the fence about how it would look. I'm ok with it looking a little washed out during the day, but I want to be able to shut my blinds and have a watchable picture throughout the day.

I bought from projectorpeople, who have a very liberal return policy (< 4 hours on the bulb = full refund), so I figured I'll set it up and watch some TV at high noon, evening, night and part of a movie at night. Then we can make our decision.

Worst case I'm out shipping costs and a lot of research time. ;) I could probably downgrade the PJ and pick up a plasma screen for day viewing too, if the wife will go for that.

We'll see how the picture quality turns out.Wow, nothing like taking you from your purchasing high. Honestly I don't think you'll be disappointed. My room looks similar to yours and s you can see from the pictures we don't even use heavy curtains, just the wooden shades and its fine. Today we fired up the pj at 10 am and left all the blinds open because it wasn't very sunny out, but gave a nice balance of light and movie enjoyment. Yes there is some fading, but that is to be expected. This is why I also recommend the da lite HP screen, which sounds like alot of gain, but doesn't make things too bright, and its alot easier to dim than to brighten pjs, so its nice to have that option.

Far as wiring goes for a living room, its not that much of a pain, I wanted it to be as painless as possible, so I took my old Bose cube speakers and mounted them right on top of the screen, they fit quite nicely on top between the space in the ceiling and the screen and don't look out of place. This was much better than having 3 seperate speakers on the floor with wires all around. I took and wraped all the wires coming from the top and put them in those black Loom Wire Covering http://www.tperformance.com/category_pics/large/chrome_loom.jpg which can be bought at harbor freight for really cheap and soldered to a wire plug connector on the wires near the screen so I can just disconnect the whole bundle of wires and move the screen to any location without having to disconnect the speakers at the top. This way the bundle is out of the way and against the wall. I have one other wire running for the sub in the corner. We've got everything run into an old 1920's antique cabinet originally used for those giant old radios of the time. It now houses the stereo, vcr, dvd and projector. When its not in use the doors close and no one knows its there, giving the room a nice clean appearance. Regardless if you have a tv or screen, you'll probaby still have a dvd player, cable box, stereo with all the wires and speakers setup for a nice surround system in the room, so theres no easy way around it.

lullg

03-08-09, 12:25 PM

So we pulled it out of the box friday night and were very impressed. Even with the windows wide open and projecting against a dark green wall the picture looked great. Overall we were very happy, so we turned it off and waited till the morning for the big test.

Long story short (I'll post the long version some time next week with pics) we're very happy with the light output of this thing and the picture never looked bad. During the day we'll need to put it on Living room mode, but TV was incredibly watchable even in situations like the one I posted in the OP. I would use the term "washed out" to describe the picture, but it's certainly not as rich as it is during the day.

For anyone else that finds this thread and is curious about my initial impressions:

1) While it's true that PJs don't project "black" (i.e. your black is essentially however dark your screen is), if you get a really bright projector it'll essentially be so bright that your screen looks dark in comparison. One of my wife's comments was "wait, so Kelly's hair (from "The Office") is the white of the screen? I don't believe that". Then I shifted the projector lens over so you could see the half of the screen w/o and image and sure enough it was the same color, but the screen looked a lot darker because we'd been staring at our high lumen reflections from the screen for so long that our eyes had adjusted. That was very surprising.

2) If you're a total A/V Geek you may not like a PJ in this situation. Our LCD TV definitely looks brighter and "richer" during the day. For us this is not a big deal because we don't watch a lot of movies during the day and TV is really just something we have on in the background. I'd rather get a nice PJ and buy a bulb every year than try to devise some kind of PJ/plasma combo setup. Maybe over the course of 4 years I'll pay more because of the bulbs going out faster, but in return I get to have a fixed frame screen and a "cleaner" setup. I imagine if you sat down to intently watch your shows and wanted to have lots of light streaming in while you did it, you'd be disappointed with a PJ only setup.

We still have an hour left that we can play with it before we have to decide if we're keeping it. I'm pretty sure we are - then I'll post pics and a more details on our setup in case someone else finds it useful.

Thanks for all the advice AVS - especially d james!

smoke90

03-08-09, 02:29 PM

I am glad you are happy and it is all about preference.

But you pointed an important thing:
The PJ does not project black. This is why if you are picky on the quality of the picture you won't have deep black, even with a $20,000 a PJ, in a room with some light.

As far as There is no plasma under $1000.
I got a 52" Pana 1080 P with a very decent picture for $999at thankgiving sale (MRSP $2499)
It is true that it is not as good as a $5000 one but anyhow if has 10 times more black than a PJ will give you in a bright room.

And as mentioned before I just bought an Epson 6500UB (1080P) and my friend does not see a big diffrence with his Pana 200U. it's huge in the detail. But it is all about preference and how picky you are.
the importance is to be happy with your set up.

d james

03-09-09, 10:08 PM

lullg

03-10-09, 12:05 PM

d james

03-10-09, 05:14 PM

Yes, we're going to keep it. I haven't gotten a new tuner to watch cable with, so right now it's been DVDs, which look great on our dark green wall. Can't wait to see what it looks like on a white screen ;)

Screen size is the next big decision - I threw a 132" against the wall and the honey thinks it looks ridiculous. Something about it "looking like we're in college". Apparently huge screens mess with the decor?!? :) I think we're going to conflict about going 120" (my preference) or 106" (hers), but it should be one of those two.

What's the viewing angle going to be like for a Da-Lite vs an elite screen? That's a pretty big issue for us. Also note we're ceiling mounted, so we can't really take full advantage of the retroreflective properties of the Da-Lite.

Oh, and for all those people who don't talk about this with live human beings: Da-Lite is pronounced "Day light". Obvious once I heard it, but in my head I'd been reading it as "Dahh Lite".
At first a big screen does look ridiculous but after a while it becomes normal and starts looking small. thats a big wall to fill up, so 120 would be more immersive. They make hideaway screens that go up into the ceiling so you never see them, but they are expensive. No matter what size it is there wil still be a big screen rolled up at the top of the ceiling, so it really doesn't matter if its 106 or 120, unless of course your going with a fixed screen, which you obviously can't hide at all. Maybe you guys should watch it on 132for a while then go back to the 106 to see how small it starts to look after a while.

Since you can't go with a retroreflective screen, I suggest you look into the angular refective screens such as the ones by vutec, stewart and I think elite. The angular reflective ones I think still cut the viewing cone down, but better than the retro reflective ones. Of course if you are to far off to the side you won't see the benefits, but for couch sitting in the daytime, I think its nice to have the extra brightness to combat the light. Heres a pic of the 2.8 gain retroreflective da lite someone posted if you haven't seen it. http://mynikonphotos.com/projector/Dalite-1.jpg All the companies will send free samples, so thats try some out and see. there is some new screen that projectorcentral will be reviewing that is supposed to absorb ambient light while at the same time making blacks better and producing 13 gain:eek: It of course comes with a heavy price, 2 grand from what I remember.

gerard143

03-10-09, 05:25 PM

glad your happy with the epson projector. have the same one. amazing how bright it still is with ambient light.

dynamic mode (obviously the brightest mode)....im surprised with how well it actually looks color-wise etc in that mode.

as for which screen to go with and viewing angles... basically the lower the gain the better the viewing angle.

a screen with a gain of 1.5 will reflect roughly 50% more light as that from the reference surface (matte white)

Low gain screens have a wider half gain viewing angle... a high gain screen is designed to reflect more projected light toward the centerline of the projection path and less like at angles of view. Brightness falls off more rapidly as you move off axis from the centerline on a high gain screen and the viewing angle is relatively narrow. See a 1.0 gain screen diffuses light evenly in all directions. A high gain screen provides more brightness to those seated in the center and diminishes it for those seated off center. Furthermore once you move off center axis the relative brightness of various portions of the image can shift quite dramatically. Second a high gain screen does not reflect red, green, and blue equally. So it can generate colors shifts that are noticeable as you move around the screen viewing it from different angles. So the image looks different to each viewer depending on where they are seated. Third, most screens with a gain higher then 1.0 has some degree of hot spotting. With the epson projector or any for that matter I dont recommend a gain screen higher then the lens throw. So 2.0.

Usually past 10 degrees offset viewing angle (atleast when using measurement equipment and graphing it out).... you notice dramatic changes in lumens and color shift.

for instance... a 2.0 gain screen will be roughly 1.5 gain at 20 degrees. Remember... 1.5 over 1.0 is 50 % more reflected light. so the shift is dramatic. shift to a 30 degree viewing angle and it will look like a 1.0 gain screen.

In my honest opinion with a projector like the epson with a relatively decent lumen output.... I would never go higher then a 1.5 gain screen.

Our epson is in a large bar roomroughly 50 long by 22 wide. There are about 20 ceiling pods with 3 adjustable angle lights in them each. With them on full brightness and not dimmed with the projector on dynamic mode the projector screen is still very viewable.

Even when we project on our golf simulator cloth screen and the pod lights are lit behind it passing light thru the screen from behind the image is still very viewable.

I hope this info helps. Again I wouldn't recommend a higher gain screen then 1.5 especially if viewing angles are a concern to you. With a 2.0 I feel your just going to have too dramatic of a shift both color and brightness at different angles making the overall image that much less appealing.

Also we ordered a Vutec 110" retractable screen and I tell you what, its quite impressive for what we paid.
It's good quality, has a thin-profile bar at the bottom edge of the screen making it look more stylish and the top where it rolls up is pretty thin-profile too. It's built solid.

http://www.mountsandmore.com/Vutec-01-EVMW5496S-VU2754.html#Insights Vutec 01-EVMW5496S - Matte White EconoPro 2000 Manual Wall Screen - 110" diagonal HDTV Format
$169 bucks with free shipping.

-gerard
ISF-C Certified

LPMM

03-18-09, 04:33 PM

I am looking to purchase my first PJ for our theatre room and I have been following this thread. Simply for the fact that I am in information overload after reading many other threads, I have narrowed my choices to either the Panny AE3000 or the Epson 6500UB. Some folks have complained about the Epson being "loud" with some sort of droning noise. Can any of you let me know if it is truly an annoyance? Thanks.

lullg

03-18-09, 05:01 PM

I've had our PJ sitting on the ottoman for the last week. It's about 3 feet from my head and I've never noticed the fan.

I think people have vastly different tolerance levels on things like brightness, contrast, noise, PQ, etc... I've never really had a problem with ambient noise when watching TV (I don't typically notice when the AC turns on, for instance). I'll go home tonight, see if I can hear the fan when actively listening to it and then report back.

smoke90

03-18-09, 05:18 PM

The fan is definitely not noisy even after I changed the setting to high elevation which run the fan faster.
The projector is 4 feet behind my head
I heard that the iris is noisy but so far did not hear anything.

lullg

03-19-09, 11:36 AM

LPMM

03-20-09, 09:05 AM

smoke90

03-20-09, 06:40 PM

I checked out the fan last night.

If it's totally quiet in the room you can hear the fan. It's a dull, white noise - like when the HVAC turns on but not as loud. I'd never hear it when there was music or in loud scene, but I suppose in a perfectly quiet room in a very quiet scene it'd be noticeable. it's no louder than a computer fan, and probably a little less "metallic" sounding.

HTH

My projector is in a cabinet where I open the door when watching. the back of the cabinet is open to a storage room. It may be very different from those that have it in the room and the ceiling reverb the noise.
When everything else is on silent you Cannot hear the fan if you are at least 5 ft away.
while I have a behringer ep2500 and I will have to do the fan mods as this fan makes too much noise

Playhouse

03-25-09, 08:26 PM

chuckvb

03-27-09, 11:29 AM

My wife made curtains that are attached to the top of the french doors and lower when you need them. With magnets in the fabric they seal the light out but are out of the way the rest of the time and look nice.

gagaliya

03-27-09, 12:43 PM

If you want to do this right, and the best setup for rooms with ambient light (ie, not a bat cave setting).

1) Get a good motorized screen, ceiling mount it ~1 feet from the wall.
2) Buy a cheap flat screen (an ok 42" goes for $700ish now), and wall mount it.
3) Program your universal remote so 1 button turns off the tv(if on), lowers the projector screen, and turn the home theater on. And another button that turns everything off.
4) You can have your a/v gear either on a stack in the back of the room, or in front depends on your wiring situation.
5) For your huge doors, that's an easy fix. Buy some wooden pulldown blinds, then sliding thermal curtain on top. With both closed, very little light will get in. The hole on the ceiling, i would just cover it up :)

This is the best setup you should go for, if you plan to live in your house for a while. Because using the projector as the primary tv on top of an ambient light room is just plain bad. There are times when you just want to watch the weather/news for a little while or a cooking show(your wife) for 20 mins, when your guests comes over during midday with lots sun, using the projector that way is not practical.

You need a normal tv that can be turned on/off without worrying about about warm up, 1 hr min on period, and not affected as much by sun. For night time movie/tv shows viewing, then you use the projector.

Since you already bought the projector, this point is moot. But one should always judge the brightness of a projector based on its "best" or movie mode, not dynamic mode. Dynamic mode is there for rare occasions football match, you never use that for real movie watching. There are projectors that are rated very high in dynamic mode but are actually a lot dimmer in best/movie mode, and vice versa.

Right now you are probably drooling over the picture as everything is new, but i guarentee you after a while you will run into all those problems i mentioned. All of the suggestions i wrote are from personal experience, as I live in an apartment with huge windows as well.