I'm not up on the rumors on new plasmas from panasonic or Samsung.
Is there anything in the pipeline that will best the current (and last) Pioneer Kuros?
I am looking at a good deal on a 111fd.
And the reason I need to know is due to my current situation.
I will be moving in the next 3 to 4 months. I could wait and hope that the Kuros are still around. Or maybe something better will be released.

If not- I could just get a Kuro now, but would have to move it in 3 months. And I am in a space where I would be able to keep the box. Dealing with movers and a plasma scares me.

I would much rather wait until I am in the new place and have the TV delivered once as opposed to having it delivered now and in 3 months have to move it. But if it means "get the Kuro now because there is nothing close coming out soon"- I just might.

Hi,

In terms of black levels, yes, there will be a ton of LED-BL LCD sets that will be able to match or better the black levels of the Kuro but it means switching to LCD and what that may mean to you.

Toshiba's CELL TV is promising to be the next major evolution in TV's with an incredible amount of processing never before applied in a TV before - it too will be LED -BL but will too be an LCD.

I terms of Plasma, the only hope is the NEO-PDP-ECO sets promised by Panasonic next year - they should be everything the Kuro is and more and will hopefully be available in a range of sizes - means having to wait a long time and who knows if they even transpire or what they will cost?

If you must wait, take a look at the new top-end Panny V10/Z1 plasma's due out in the next few months - probably cost more than what you can pick up a 5020 for but will have more features though. Why not just pay a deposit on a Kuro and arrange to have it collected/delivered to you after your move?

Bazzy!

I'm not up on the rumors on new plasmas from panasonic or Samsung.
Is there anything in the pipeline that will best the current (and last) Pioneer Kuros?
I am looking at a good deal on a 111fd.
And the reason I need to know is due to my current situation.
I will be moving in the next 3 to 4 months. I could wait and hope that the Kuros are still around. Or maybe something better will be released.

If not- I could just get a Kuro now, but would have to move it in 3 months. And I am in a space where I would be able to keep the box. Dealing with movers and a plasma scares me.

I would much rather wait until I am in the new place and have the TV delivered once as opposed to having it delivered now and in 3 months have to move it. But if it means "get the Kuro now because there is nothing close coming out soon"- I just might.

Well right now LED's can match the Kuro in black levels, but not always in shadow detail. Plus you have to worry about off-axis viewing with LED's.

Panasonic will probably need another 2-3 years to hit the black level of the 9g Kuro, but at that point their sets will probably be much more energy-efficient, bright and slim.

So if you need a TV now, the Kuro is basically gonna be the best thing you can get for at least 2 years. Who knows what will happen with Panasonic and Samsung during that time?

Well right now LED's can match the Kuro in black levels, but not always in shadow detail. Plus you have to worry about off-axis viewing with LED's.

Panasonic will probably need another 2-3 years to hit the black level of the 9g Kuro, but at that point their sets will probably be much more energy-efficient, bright and slim.

So if you need a TV now, the Kuro is basically gonna be the best thing you can get for at least 2 years. Who knows what will happen with Panasonic and Samsung during that time?

I thought Panasonic needs the new plant to meet the Kuro performance and that plant was delayed till 2010.

I thought Panasonic needs the new plant to meet the Kuro performance and that plant was delayed till 2010.

Who knows at this point. I believe everything we know about Panasonic's future TV's was released prior to Pioneer folding and the economy totally going in the crapper.

Hard to say what will be happening with plasma technology after this year.

Well right now LED's can match the Kuro in black levels, but not always in shadow detail. Plus you have to worry about off-axis viewing with LED's.


No they don't. No flat panel comes close to matching Kuros .0001 black level or contrast. If you are talking about the fact that they can turn off their backlight on an all black screen that is a useless feature and does nothing for the actual picture quality. Their viewing angle is terrible as well.

No they don't. No flat panel comes close to matching Kuros .0001 black level or contrast. If you are talking about the fact that they can turn off their backlight on an all black screen that is a useless feature and does nothing for the actual picture quality. Their viewing angle is terrible as well.

The panel found the Sony’s deep black levels impressive. They commented that the set was “significantly darker than any other set” on full black images such as a fade to black between scenes. Comments like, “Nothing to criticize at all,” were frequent. HTmag.

Well bokes, if what you really want is a kuro, get it.
Some of us however do not share your initial premise. There are a few exceptional plasmas out there, each from Pioneer, Panasonic, and my favorite, Samsung.
If you are uncertain, just go look at some and let your eyes decide.:cool:

12 months, no chance. 18 month small chance. 24 months average chance. 36 month decent chance. 48 months good chance. 60 months definite chance.

Get the Kuro now because there is nothing close coming out...... That will come anywhere near the deal you can get on a 111FD right now. I bought one close to dealer cost, and any TV that can come CLOSE to competing will be at least $1500-2000 more expensive.

The panel found the Sony’s deep black levels impressive. They commented that the set was “significantly darker than any other set” on full black images such as a fade to black between scenes. Comments like, “Nothing to criticize at all,” were frequent. HTmag.

Big freakin deal. Like I said the LED can only turn off the backlight on an all black screen. When you actually watch tv it looks like ass just like any other lcd.

Maybe I can sell you an air conditioner that only works when the temperature reaches 150 degrees in your house. LOL

I need a breath mint.

Big freakin deal. Like I said the LED can only turn off the backlight on an all black screen. When you actually watch tv it looks like ass just like any other lcd.

Stop making a fool of yourself. LEDs don't need to shut off completely in order to get a KURO-type black level.

They still have bleeding except for the two big boy sets and the off-axis is poor at best and not suited for a wider than three seating set-up.
Straight on they are very nice, especially with still shots...but when things get moving there is too much blur for me.

Best guess: Doesn't seem like it.

Correct answer: Nobody knows yet

Stop making a fool of yourself. LEDs don't need to shut off completely in order to get a KURO-type black level.

Yes they do. That backlight glow is awful.

I thought I would chime in this topic...

To answer the OP question.....YESSS!!! The Kuro will become a distant memory by next year. However, next year will become important for Panasonic to make a promise to the home theater enthusiasts that they have done extensive research and design to promote the idea of dominance of black level, performance, and value.

Now many people have not reiterated that the Kuro's during "Day" look very average and washed out at best. The black level performance drops off quite a bit. Again the Kuro's or any other PDP has to be viewed within a darkened environment to shine, where as an LCD retains its black level performance during the day. During a darkened room you will notice some backlighting issues of LCDs and also LCDs are using a protective glass that gives off reflection.

So the proposition is this...if you want something that's the best that handles black levels, viewing angles, natural picture, great color reproduction, and handles motion very well, but is average during the day and has issues with reflections, then go Kuro....

If you want a bright, eye-popping/could be described exaggerated brightness, has deep black levels during the day, very good colors, but has some issues with handling motion and viewing angles, then an LCD buyer is in you. Many consumers feel that brighter = better.

Chris

Now many people have not reiterated that the Kuro's during "Day" look very average and washed out at best. The black level performance drops off quite a bit. Again the Kuro's or any other PDP has to be viewed within a darkened environment to shine, where as an LCD retains its black level performance during the day. During a darkened room you will notice some backlighting issues of LCDs and also LCDs are using a protective glass that gives off reflection.

I disagree. My friend has a 42" RCA lcd and blacks never look as good as you are saying during the day. The Samsung lcds with their tinted glass will but you can't just lump in any lcd into the argument. I'm sure you can guess what the RCA lcd looks like with the lights off... I'm not even sure if you can call that color black.

12 months, no chance. 18 month small chance. 24 months average chance. 36 month decent chance. 48 months good chance. 60 months definite chance.

Fully agree with this.

I thought I would chime in this topic...

To answer the OP question.....YESSS!!! The Kuro will become a distant memory by next year. However, next year will become important for Panasonic to make a promise to the home theater enthusiasts that they have done extensive research and design to promote the idea of dominance of black level, performance, and value.

Now many people have not reiterated that the Kuro's during "Day" look very average and washed out at best. The black level performance drops off quite a bit. Again the Kuro's or any other PDP has to be viewed within a darkened environment to shine, where as an LCD retains its black level performance during the day. During a darkened room you will notice some backlighting issues of LCDs and also LCDs are using a protective glass that gives off reflection.



So the proposition is this...if you want something that's the best that handles black levels, viewing angles, natural picture, great color reproduction, and handles motion very well, but is average during the day and has issues with reflections, then go Kuro....

If you want a bright, eye-popping/could be described exaggerated brightness, has deep black levels during the day, very good colors, but has some issues with handling motion and viewing angles, then an LCD buyer is in you. Many consumers feel that brighter = better.

Chris
Have you ever seen a properly calibrated (ISFccc day) Kuro? I can't imagine you have. It is more than bright enough and black levels are consistent. IMHO there is no LCD that can match the overall look of a calibrated Kuro.

I'm not up on the rumors on new plasmas from panasonic or Samsung.
Is there anything in the pipeline that will best the current (and last) Pioneer Kuros?
I am looking at a good deal on a 111fd.
And the reason I need to know is due to my current situation.
I will be moving in the next 3 to 4 months. I could wait and hope that the Kuros are still around. Or maybe something better will be released.

If not- I could just get a Kuro now, but would have to move it in 3 months. And I am in a space where I would be able to keep the box. Dealing with movers and a plasma scares me.

I would much rather wait until I am in the new place and have the TV delivered once as opposed to having it delivered now and in 3 months have to move it. But if it means "get the Kuro now because there is nothing close coming out soon"- I just might.

I am actually getting tired of posting this, as it seems to be a bit of a Ford vs Chevvy argument, but her goes...

HD GURU thinks Panny have already overtaken Pioneer - I do not have an opinion, other than I expect Panny to overtake Pio this year.
Link:
http://hdguru.com/panasonic-premiere-th-65vx100-the-new-king-of-flat-panels-exclusive-first-review/276/

"The other major difference between the KURO and the Panasonic Premiere is the way they revealed dark detail. The KURO takes a higher level signal to come out of black, which caused details in dark movies (think Batman Begins and Alien Versus Predator) to be obscured. The same content on the Panasonic revealed the dark details the KURO hid.

The conclusion? The new Panasonic TH-65VX100 is overall the best flat panel tested to date, and should be considered by anyone contemplating a flat screen display in the 60”-65” screen size range."

edit add:
My personal observations. Mid, Dec 2008, I went to the store to buy a LX508 KURO as there was a significant price reduction advertised. But, as the salesman was filling in the order form I compared the LX508 to the Panny 50PZ850. I asked the salesman to stop what he was doing. I then watched the LX508 side by side with the 50PZ850 for one hour, playing with the set ups of both sets.

After one hour, my conclusion was clear, - the Pio has a few % better blacks, but the Panny has better image processing in most scenes. Both the Pio and the Panny had the same flicker on 25P (Aus HDTV), but the Aus (and EURO) panny had a party trick up its sleeve. The panny had a frame doubling (interpolation) that eliminated flicker and stutter and judder on 25P broadcast. - beautifully smooth. The Panny is lovely smooth on 24P too, but my work mate who bought a LX508 at the same time complains of 'flicker'.

My advice is to wait until the new model Pannys hit the US - they are expected to all have this 'anti flicker' function.

I have copped a lot of heat from work mates for not buying the Pio, but they just do not know what they are missing on my Panny.

As for blacks, I expect the Pannys to try and keep up with the LED LCDs, and the top Pioneer techs are now getting jobs at Panasonic, so you would have to expect the Pannys to match or overtake the Pios in regard to blacks, very soon.

"The other major difference between the KURO and the Panasonic Premiere is the way they revealed dark detail. The KURO takes a higher level signal to come out of black, which caused details in dark movies (think Batman Begins and Alien Versus Predator) to be obscured. The same content on the Panasonic revealed the dark details the KURO hid.

I've heard the Pios accused of crushing blacks many times, yet nobody ever demonstrates it with a test pattern. Unless I'm missing something.

Yes they do. That backlight glow is awful.

No, they don't. LED backlit LCDs have many, many LED lights which can be turned off if a largish block of the picture is all black. You don't need a full black screen to get "perfect" blacks on them at all, though there are some serious drawbacks (haloing) that are pretty annoying.

Well right now LED's can match the Kuro in black levels, but not always in shadow detail. Plus you have to worry about off-axis viewing with LED's.

Panasonic will probably need another 2-3 years to hit the black level of the 9g Kuro, but at that point their sets will probably be much more energy-efficient, bright and slim.

So if you need a TV now, the Kuro is basically gonna be the best thing you can get for at least 2 years. Who knows what will happen with Panasonic and Samsung during that time?

100% correct to all you said.

LCD's can reach excellent black levels, but do not have the same fine gradation and tonal quality that plasmas can achieve.

-Robert

Well bokes, if what you really want is a kuro, get it.
Some of us however do not share your initial premise. There are a few exceptional plasmas out there, each from Pioneer, Panasonic, and my favorite, Samsung.
If you are uncertain, just go look at some and let your eyes decide.:cool:

With a proper ISF calibration, I do agree that Samsung delivers a better pq vs. Panasonic, but sadly none come up to the film like image quality of the Kuro's. The gradual gradation and deep saturated colors creates a finer detailed and more of a 3-d image that other panels can't render.

-Robert

Thanks guys.
I'll see if I could put a down payment (or just pay full) on one and have them hold it for me until I can accept shipment. Like I said I move in 3 to 4 months and would like to deal with one delivery.

No, they don't. LED backlit LCDs have many, many LED lights which can be turned off if a largish block of the picture is all black. You don't need a full black screen to get "perfect" blacks on them at all, though there are some serious drawbacks (haloing) that are pretty annoying.

The blacks on these LED LCDs CANNOT reach kuro levels during normal content.

The only time it is possible is when there is a very large portion of the screen that is total black.
Meaning, the ENTIRE LED ZONE must be black.
If ANY illumination is required for as little as ONE pixel, within that given zone, the black level of the ENTIRE zone is compromised. This causes the black levels during regular content to suffer and not in the same class as the Kuro.

This is referred to as "BLooming".
It was a problem with the Samsung 81F, and it is still a problem today.

The Kuro's black levels are not zone dependant.
This makes its black levels more impressive and noticably darker during mixed contrast content.

heres a quote from CNET on this from thier review of the XBR8:

"That's one reason we still give the overall black-level performance nod to the Pioneer. As a result of the Sony's dimming LEDs, which are also responsible for its superb black levels, dark areas right next to bright ones appeared brighter than on the Pioneer, an effect that has a very subtle negative impact on the overall "pop" of the image. We call the spillover of light into dark areas "blooming" in this case, and in Sony's favor, it wasn't nearly as obvious or as objectionable as we saw on the Samsung, but it was still apparent when comparing to the Pioneer. "

With a proper ISF calibration, I do agree that Samsung delivers a better pq vs. Panasonic, but sadly none come up to the film like image quality of the Kuro's. The gradual gradation and deep saturated colors creates a finer detailed and more of a 3-d image that other panels can't render.

-Robert

I agree. Sammy plasmas get no respect on this forum. Some glance at the black level numbers and automatically dismiss it, or they just look at the logo and think LCD + AMP.

I am actually getting tired of posting this...

...HD GURU thinks Panny have already overtaken Pioneer.

Not anymore tired than I am of pointing out to you that HD GURU himself conceded that he had actually compared the new $10,000 Panny display to the $3,500 Pioneer non-Elite 5020 (http://hdguru.com/panasonic-premiere-th-65vx100-the-new-king-of-flat-panels-exclusive-first-review/276/), and not to Pioneer's flagship Elite or Signature models.

[QUOTE=Pepster returns;15944448]I am actually getting tired of posting this...

...HD GURU thinks Panny have already overtaken Pioneer.{/QUOTE]

Not anymore tired than I am of pointing out to you that HD GURU himself conceded that he had actually compared the new $10,000 Panny display to the $3,500 Pioneer non-Elite 5020 (http://hdguru.com/panasonic-premiere-th-65vx100-the-new-king-of-flat-panels-exclusive-first-review/276/), and not to Pioneer's flagship Elite or Signature models.

LOL no wonder he used colorspace 1 .:D:D

They should remove that article from thier website.

The blacks on these LED LCDs CANNOT reach kuro levels during normal content.

The only time it is possible is when there is a very large portion of the screen that is total black.
Meaning, the ENTIRE LED ZONE must be black.
If ANY illumination is required for as little as ONE pixel, within that given zone, the black level of the ENTIRE zone is compromised. This causes the black levels during regular content to suffer and not in the same class as the Kuro.

This is referred to as "BLooming".
It was a problem with the Samsung 81F, and it is still a problem today.

The Kuro's black levels are not zone dependant.
This makes its black levels more impressive and noticably darker during mixed contrast content.

heres a quote from CNET on this from thier review of the XBR8:

"That's one reason we still give the overall black-level performance nod to the Pioneer. As a result of the Sony's dimming LEDs, which are also responsible for its superb black levels, dark areas right next to bright ones appeared brighter than on the Pioneer, an effect that has a very subtle negative impact on the overall "pop" of the image. We call the spillover of light into dark areas "blooming" in this case, and in Sony's favor, it wasn't nearly as obvious or as objectionable as we saw on the Samsung, but it was still apparent when comparing to the Pioneer. "

Yeah, exactly. But it's not true that you need an entirely black screen to get "true" blacks, as was posted. That's a misunderstanding of the technology.

I'm not super impressed by the LED sets that I've seen. The haloing is distracting enough that I think I'd prefer a traditional LCD without local dimming.

chadmak09, I agree.

-Robert

Not anymore tired than I am of pointing out to you that HD GURU himself conceded that he had actually compared the new $10,000 Panny display to the $3,500 Pioneer non-Elite 5020 (http://hdguru.com/panasonic-premiere-th-65vx100-the-new-king-of-flat-panels-exclusive-first-review/276/), and not to Pioneer's flagship Elite or Signature models.

It seems Hdguru is cearly not a guru lol! I cant stop staring away at my day old 111FD!

Yeah, exactly. But it's not true that you need an entirely black screen to get "true" blacks, as was posted. That's a misunderstanding of the technology.

I'm not super impressed by the LED sets that I've seen. The haloing is distracting enough that I think I'd prefer a traditional LCD without local dimming.

yes you are right.

there are many scenes in movies where there is alot of darkness.

In fact, some of my favorite scenes are like that.

In those instances the XBR8 is a hair darker and looks more like actual darkness.
But this really depends on the lighting in the room also.

At night when I have one lamp on in my living room, I simply cannot tell the difference between the blacks on the TV and the bezel.
At that time, It is as good as total black to my eyes.

But if I turn the lights completely out (which I hate doing), I can see a slight amount of illumination.

If anyone wants to do an experiment, turn all of your lights out and go to a blank input (all black screen).
After 30 seconds, you will see the pixels shut off and notice the illuminaion change.
With the XBR8, it will look like the kuro does after 30 seconds the whole time because all of the zones are off. Which is the same way it works during content when an entire zone is black.

Hi All,

When Toshiba launch their CELL TV later this year, does anyone think that it will take over the mantle from Kuro?

Bazzy!

The panel found the Sony’s deep black levels impressive. They commented that the set was “significantly darker than any other set” on full black images such as a fade to black between scenes. Comments like, “Nothing to criticize at all,” were frequent. HTmag.

Since you're quoting part of an article let me provide the BUT that was common to each of the reviewers on the panel. Paraphrasing, "to achieve the highest PQ on the Sony and other LCD panels, you must view it on axis. Moving off axis in the slightest degrades PQ, blacks included." One reviewer even commented that the Sony would be a great TV if he had a device on his head that would ensure it stayed perfectly still.

To provide more background on the HT Mag comment, this was a shoot-out between 4 panels; 2 LCD and 2 plasma. Each reviewer hands down chose the Pioneer 111FD as the best panel available. It's in the Feb 09 issue if you want to read it first hand.

To provide more background on the HT Mag comment, this was a shoot-out between 4 panels; 2 LCD and 2 plasma. Each reviewer hands down chose the Pioneer 111FD as the best panel available. It's in the Feb 09 issue if you want to read it first hand.

Well, Actually there was 1 reviewer that picked the sony.

She was kind of a teeny-bopper rather than a reviewer or professional in this field. She is an article reviewer who bascially corrects spelling errors for a living. She said she has not looked and compared HDTV's in over three years.

SHe said she liked the Sony because "It is alot more pretty". lol j/k

I found her assesment to be all over the place.
I would not be surprised if she just randomly picked the scores because she could not tell a difference between any of them.
her results were this:

1.Sony XBR8
2.Panny 800u
3.Pro-111fd pioneer
4.Samsung 950

Maybe she like LCD's better for her taste, But to rate the 800u over the pioneer really confuses me.

Who knows at this point. I believe everything we know about Panasonic's future TV's was released prior to Pioneer folding and the economy totally going in the crapper.

Hard to say what will be happening with plasma technology after this year.

wrong. there was an article taken commentary from one of pannys events from feb. 25, just a few day ago, stating neopdp eco will be on shelves in 2010.

for the other guy stating it will take panny two years to get 9g kuro black levels, read what i just posted. its more like one year to top black levels of the 9g kuro.

Hi All,

When Toshiba launch their CELL TV later this year, does anyone think that it will take over the mantle from Kuro?

Bazzy!

they have great tech for this tv, but its still within the confines of its tech, and lcd that is. ive never seen a toshiba with a cms either.

The blacks on these LED LCDs CANNOT reach kuro levels during normal content.

The only time it is possible is when there is a very large portion of the screen that is total black.
Meaning, the ENTIRE LED ZONE must be black.
If ANY illumination is required for as little as ONE pixel, within that given zone, the black level of the ENTIRE zone is compromised. This causes the black levels during regular content to suffer and not in the same class as the Kuro.

This is referred to as "BLooming".
It was a problem with the Samsung 81F, and it is still a problem today.

The Kuro's black levels are not zone dependant.
This makes its black levels more impressive and noticably darker during mixed contrast content.

heres a quote from CNET on this from thier review of the XBR8:

"That's one reason we still give the overall black-level performance nod to the Pioneer. As a result of the Sony's dimming LEDs, which are also responsible for its superb black levels, dark areas right next to bright ones appeared brighter than on the Pioneer, an effect that has a very subtle negative impact on the overall "pop" of the image. We call the spillover of light into dark areas "blooming" in this case, and in Sony's favor, it wasn't nearly as obvious or as objectionable as we saw on the Samsung, but it was still apparent when comparing to the Pioneer. "

what?!? blooming is a term in which there is an overvibrance, or clipping, of any colors. mainly whites. digital displays arent even capable of blooming. hard to believe as much as you read and post on here you dont understand some of the basics of calibration. much less participate in an argument about it.

Hi All,

When Toshiba launch their CELL TV later this year, does anyone think that it will take over the mantle from Kuro?

Bazzy!

The big advantage of Toshiba's built-in cell processor is two fold.

First, it will up-convert SD TV beautifully.

Second, with a media box connected you can record up to 5 or so HD channels simultaneously.

The cell processor Toshiba is implementing into the next gen of LCD panels is very powerful, it has the power of a 10 core processor.

Not sure it will give much advantage in the way of HD pq, but we'll see.

-Robert

what?!? blooming is a term in which there is an overvibrance, or clipping, of any colors. mainly whites. digital displays arent even capable of blooming. hard to believe as much as you read and post on here you dont understand some of the basics of calibration. much less participate in an argument about it.

Maybe you need to do some reading on the subject???;)

I can help you understand it better.

here are some examples (look for the circled text.):

http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm71/chadmak09/bloom2.jpg?t=1235963026
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm71/chadmak09/bloom3.jpg?t=1235963013
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm71/chadmak09/bloom.jpg?t=1235963134

They still have bleeding except for the two big boy sets and the off-axis is poor at best and not suited for a wider than three seating set-up.
Straight on they are very nice, especially with still shots...but when things get moving there is too much blur for me.

What if you don't watch tv off axis?

Not anymore tired than I am of pointing out to you that HD GURU himself conceded that he had actually compared the new $10,000 Panny display to the $3,500 Pioneer non-Elite 5020 (http://hdguru.com/panasonic-premiere-th-65vx100-the-new-king-of-flat-panels-exclusive-first-review/276/), and not to Pioneer's flagship Elite or Signature models.
hehe, +1, etc.

black levels on a 0 stimulus screen are not the same as black levels withinin a scene.

anyone can turn the panel off and call it absolute 0

most of the lcd manufacturers are moving to edge lit led screens this year. and not led backlit screens.

until lcd can get a huge boost in discreet zones on rgb led backlit screens with a sample and hold time similar to plasmas and a comparable viewing angle they wont come close.

lg looks like they have a contender this year, but i resrve my judgments until i see it myself. plus lg is never at the top of best tvs in any category

id say 3-4 years before panasonic catches up to the current elites and thats not even guaranteeing that they will have perfect color and isf modes like the current elites do

Pioneer 5020. CNET.

The good:
Produces the deepest shade of black of any big-screen display we've tested; accurate color decoding; dejudder processing option; 72Hz mode for 1080p/24 sources works well; superb antireflective screen; streams photo, music, and video files over home network; fine connectivity with four HDMI and one PC input.

The bad:
Expensive; inaccurate primary colors; lacks advanced picture controls; frame causes minor reflections.

Since you're quoting part of an article let me provide the BUT that was common to each of the reviewers on the panel. Paraphrasing, "to achieve the highest PQ on the Sony and other LCD panels, you must view it on axis. Moving off axis in the slightest degrades PQ, blacks included." One reviewer even commented that the Sony would be a great TV if he had a device on his head that would ensure it stayed perfectly still.

To provide more background on the HT Mag comment, this was a shoot-out between 4 panels; 2 LCD and 2 plasma. Each reviewer hands down chose the Pioneer 111FD as the best panel available. It's in the Feb 09 issue if you want to read it first hand.

Well, Actually there was 1 reviewer that picked the sony.

She was kind of a teeny-bopper rather than a reviewer or professional in this field. She is an article reviewer who bascially corrects spelling errors for a living. She said she has not looked and compared HDTV's in over three years.

SHe said she liked the Sony because "It is alot more pretty". lol j/k

I found her assesment to be all over the place.
I would not be surprised if she just randomly picked the scores because she could not tell a difference between any of them.
her results were this:

1.Sony XBR8
2.Panny 800u
3.Pro-111fd pioneer
4.Samsung 950

Maybe she like LCD's better for her taste, But to rate the 800u over the pioneer really confuses me.

I stand corrected. Thank you chadmak09.

What if you don't watch tv off axis?

Then you live alone and should be out chasing tail instead. :)

I disagree. My friend has a 42" RCA lcd and blacks never look as good as you are saying during the day. The Samsung lcds with their tinted glass will but you can't just lump in any lcd into the argument. I'm sure you can guess what the RCA lcd looks like with the lights off... I'm not even sure if you can call that color black.

Referring to top tier manufacturers (Samsung, LG, Sharp, etc....)

Chris

Referring to top tier manufacturers (Samsung, LG, Sharp, etc....)

Chris

I had a Sony for 3 months and never thought the black levels were anything to shout home about. I absolutely hated the tv at night.

Pioneer 5020. CNET.

The good:
Produces the deepest shade of black of any big-screen display we've tested; accurate color decoding; dejudder processing option; 72Hz mode for 1080p/24 sources works well; superb antireflective screen; streams photo, music, and video files over home network; fine connectivity with four HDMI and one PC input.

The bad:
Expensive; inaccurate primary colors; lacks advanced picture controls; frame causes minor reflections.

Hey Auditor, I've got one for you...

Get a life. Go do something productive. Stop wasting hours of your life everyday arguing your love for lcds when no one here wants to listen to you and you're not making any money doing it. You're on the wrong forum.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=166http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=166

Hi,

In terms of black levels, yes, there will be a ton of LED-BL LCD sets that will be able to match or better the black levels of the Kuro but it means switching to LCD and what that may mean to you.

Toshiba's CELL TV is promising to be the next major evolution in TV's with an incredible amount of processing never before applied in a TV before - it too will be LED -BL but will too be an LCD.

I terms of Plasma, the only hope is the NEO-PDP-ECO sets promised by Panasonic next year - they should be everything the Kuro is and more and will hopefully be available in a range of sizes - means having to wait a long time and who knows if they even transpire or what they will cost?

If you must wait, take a look at the new top-end Panny V10/Z1 plasma's due out in the next few months - probably cost more than what you can pick up a 5020 for but will have more features though. Why not just pay a deposit on a Kuro and arrange to have it collected/delivered to you after your move?

Bazzy!

To say a TON of LED-BL LED's released this year is absolutely ridiculous. What you mainly confusing is the use of the LED's and the way they are used on this years announced models, and that would be edge lit LED lighting like the Samsung 7000 series which is basically replaceing the CCFL's with LED's, versus IM-LED based lighting system, which is the Individual Modulating LED grid system of backlighting that can locally dim which would include the LG 47G, Samsung 81/950 series, XBR8 and though more complicated, the Sharp XS-1.

However no new IM-LED based displays have been announced for this year, with no successor to the 950, XBR8 ,47G or XS-1. So I would actually say that NO LCD released this year will match the current Kuro's black levels, and the Eco Panny plasma should be hitting next year if I'm not mistaken, so I would say the Kuro is a pretty safe bet.

Though I would share your concern about transportation of your display, how far do you have to take this thing? And are you going to be transporting it personally or by a transportation or shipping company?

Well, Actually there was 1 reviewer that picked the sony.

She was kind of a teeny-bopper rather than a reviewer or professional in this field. She is an article reviewer who bascially corrects spelling errors for a living. She said she has not looked and compared HDTV's in over three years.

SHe said she liked the Sony because "It is alot more pretty". lol j/k

I found her assesment to be all over the place.
I would not be surprised if she just randomly picked the scores because she could not tell a difference between any of them.
her results were this:

1.Sony XBR8
2.Panny 800u
3.Pro-111fd pioneer
4.Samsung 950

Maybe she like LCD's better for her taste, But to rate the 800u over the pioneer really confuses me.

The only thing we can take away from what this reviewer had to say....she may not have picked the elite as winner like the others did, BUT...LOL...ALL reviewrs 100% picked the Sammy as last place. This is kinda funny to me. So she had some incling of talent in reviewing.

To say a TON of LED-BL LED's released this year is absolutely ridiculous. What you mainly confusing is the use of the LED's and the way they are used on this years announced models, and that would be edge lit LED lighting like the Samsung 7000 series which is basically replaceing the CCFL's with LED's, versus IM-LED based lighting system, which is the Individual Modulating LED grid system of backlighting that can locally dim which would include the LG 47G, Samsung 81/950 series, XBR8 and though more complicated, the Sharp XS-1.

However no new IM-LED based displays have been announced for this year, with no successor to the 950, XBR8 ,47G or XS-1. So I would actually say that NO LCD released this year will match the current Kuro's black levels, and the Eco Panny plasma should be hitting next year if I'm not mistaken, so I would say the Kuro is a pretty safe bet.

Though I would share your concern about transportation of your display, how far do you have to take this thing? And are you going to be transporting it personally or by a transportation or shipping company?


Hi Superman,

Dude, Chill out, It was just a form of expression (like "That/It weighs a ton") that most folks around the world use and can relate too - it was not meant literally - that fact you took it so, is most worrying and really riduculous - just calm down, take your medication, get out more, mix with real Human Beings, see your shrink or try some Yoga, it might help your over-sensitivity, seriously!

I am no expert on LCD LED-BL techs - whether Edge Lit or locally dimmed, at the time of my writing the above, I made no distinction either way between one type of LED-BL & another and so it would have been mere common courtesy to have posted your information as supplemental rather than attacking mine, but as you are expert it would seem, please kindly enlighten us by informing the rest of us exactly how many of the Edge Lit LED-BL sets you have been able to review/test and against what - I am sure many would be very interested as my understanding is that most people have not had the opportunity.

As far as I am aware to date and regarding Locally Dimmed LED-BL sets, LG will be bringing out at least 2 this year - LHX & LH95, Toshiba is planning 3 - Cell TV, SV670 & another series with internet TV, Samsung will be replacing the current A950 & A786 in the second half of the year and JVC plans one - not yet designated model number. That is 8 in total that I am aware of (and there MAY be others) which rather goes against your statement “no new IM-LED based displays have been announced for this year.” - I suggest a little research before posting on your part in future would pay better dividends rather than criticising others who are trying to help.

As to the rest of your post, it pretty much concurs to what I had written regarding Panasonic’s Neo-PDP-Eco and just in case it escaped your attention, you will find that my advice was for the party to actually put a deposit on a Kuro till his situation was more conducive for him to collect or have it delivered to him as normal so you basically just repeated what I had written.

As far as the transportation issue, I certainly did not mention anything about such in that post so it is clear you are confusing comments relating from different threads/posts as the issue was not in any way related to transportation and the end user. If you had bothered to read the actual content and actually absorbed anything, you would have seen that it was purely a topic relating to a manufacturer to get their products to market via their distribution networks as efficiently and cheaply as possible and all that entails. I trust you will properly absorb any content in future before making erroneous comments.

Bazzy!

The big advantage of Toshiba's built-in cell processor is two fold.

First, it will up-convert SD TV beautifully.

Second, with a media box connected you can record up to 5 or so HD channels simultaneously.

The cell processor Toshiba is implementing into the next gen of LCD panels is very powerful, it has the power of a 10 core processor.

Not sure it will give much advantage in the way of HD pq, but we'll see.

-Robert


Hi Robert!

Thank you indeed! Wow - 10 cores?! Phew, that is seriously powerful! It does sound like it will be something very special indeed - may I ask, do you think any of this super processing will help the motion issues that to point where it will become a non-issue or even just a very marginal one? As great as it might be, the fact that it is an LCD, will it still not have issues with viewing angles - I cannot see how it would match a Plasma on that area unless I am missing something about the tech. Finally, what do you think/guesstimate (as someone who in in the industry) that these CELL TV's will retail for? I have a feeling they will be crazy expensive!

Bazzy!

I do not believe it will be two years before the 9g's are bested. They will be beat for motion resolution and brightness by Panasonic this year. Yes, I know they can be bright enough, but not the xx20's in any kind of accurate mode.

If Panasonic produces NeoPDP Eco as reported by some Panasonic spokesmen, you will see them between Q2 and Q3 2010. Do that math ;)

- Rich

What if you don't watch tv off axis?What if you don't watch TV with your friends all sitting in your lap?

If Panasonic produces NeoPDP Eco as reported by some Panasonic spokesmen, you will see them between Q2 and Q3 2010. Do that math ;)

- RichI'll have verification of this within the next 72 hours.

Anything better than current Kuro due in next 12 months?No. You're best off with a PRO-151FD, SC-07, PS-3, Intimus 5T Hybrid HD 7.1 channel speaker system and Dell's XPS Studio i7 x64 based PC w/RAID 0...

this is what I have.

Of course, I build a better box too. ;)

Anyone care to provide the specific reasoning that nothing will match the Kuro anywhere from 2-5 years?

Pioneer 5020. CNET.

The good:
Produces the deepest shade of black of any big-screen display we've tested; accurate color decoding; dejudder processing option; 72Hz mode for 1080p/24 sources works well; superb antireflective screen; streams photo, music, and video files over home network; fine connectivity with four HDMI and one PC input.

The bad:
Expensive; inaccurate primary colors; lacks advanced picture controls; frame causes minor reflections.

Hey Auditor, I've got one for you...

Get a life. Go do something productive. Stop wasting hours of your life everyday arguing your love for lcds when no one here wants to listen to you and you're not making any money doing it. You're on the wrong forum.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=166http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=166


I think the true love will surprise you. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1125758

Anyone care to provide the specific reasoning that nothing will match the Kuro anywhere from 2-5 years?Has anyone provided a specific reason, which leads you to believe there will be something better than a Kuro PDP being released during the next 12 months?

If there was a better PDP being made this year most likely it would have been introduced during CES 2009 or "rumored" to be released during some up coming trade show.

I know a year is not probable, but come on, 5 years? In 5 years we'll have programmable matter, and somehow Panasonic won't manage to match the black level of an older TV? I want a scientific explanation. I just don't like it when people pop in and say, "2 years."

(5) years is a different story

I am actually getting tired of posting this, as it seems to be a bit of a Ford vs Chevvy argument, but her goes...

HD GURU thinks Panny have already overtaken Pioneer - I do not have an opinion, other than I expect Panny to overtake Pio this year.
Link:
http://hdguru.com/panasonic-premiere-th-65vx100-the-new-king-of-flat-panels-exclusive-first-review/276/

"The other major difference between the KURO and the Panasonic Premiere is the way they revealed dark detail. The KURO takes a higher level signal to come out of black, which caused details in dark movies (think Batman Begins and Alien Versus Predator) to be obscured. The same content on the Panasonic revealed the dark details the KURO hid.

The conclusion? The new Panasonic TH-65VX100 is overall the best flat panel tested to date, and should be considered by anyone contemplating a flat screen display in the 60”-65” screen size range."

edit add:
My personal observations. Mid, Dec 2008, I went to the store to buy a LX508 KURO as there was a significant price reduction advertised. But, as the salesman was filling in the order form I compared the LX508 to the Panny 50PZ850. I asked the salesman to stop what he was doing. I then watched the LX508 side by side with the 50PZ850 for one hour, playing with the set ups of both sets.

After one hour, my conclusion was clear, - the Pio has a few % better blacks, but the Panny has better image processing in most scenes. Both the Pio and the Panny had the same flicker on 25P (Aus HDTV), but the Aus (and EURO) panny had a party trick up its sleeve. The panny had a frame doubling (interpolation) that eliminated flicker and stutter and judder on 25P broadcast. - beautifully smooth. The Panny is lovely smooth on 24P too, but my work mate who bought a LX508 at the same time complains of 'flicker'.

My advice is to wait until the new model Pannys hit the US - they are expected to all have this 'anti flicker' function.

I have copped a lot of heat from work mates for not buying the Pio, but they just do not know what they are missing on my Panny.

As for blacks, I expect the Pannys to try and keep up with the LED LCDs, and the top Pioneer techs are now getting jobs at Panasonic, so you would have to expect the Pannys to match or overtake the Pios in regard to blacks, very soon.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how wrong they are.

I have copped a lot of heat from work mates for not buying the Pio, but they just do not know what they are missing on my Panny.Most likely, it is the other way around (http://www.english-test.net/forum/ftopic20408.html).

What if you don't watch tv off axis?

And how's the ambient light in this room?

What if you don't watch tv off axis?I don't usually but my wife does most often.

technically, not within 12 months, but neopdpeco is currrently slated for 2010. its atleast better than 5 years down the road.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how wrong they are.



Didn't we put that silly "HD Guru" article to sleep? He was comparing a $10,000 Panny to a $2000 Pioneer Non-Elite.

op NO!! just not possible, you cannot get a plasma that is ANYWHERE as near as our current pioneer elite. NOT in 1 yr and even if such did happen it WILL be more expensive. get yourself a pioneer and watch as we will wait more years to come for something close or beter but thats years away

auditor55 lol you forgot this which is USELESS 100% why would i want a complete dark black image if cannot see it on my TV???:confused:

im sorry but your post failed,

The panel found the Sony’s deep black levels impressive. They commented that the set was "significantly darker than any other set” on full black images such as a fade to black between scenes. Comments like, “Nothing to criticize at all,” were frequent. HTmag.

op NO!! just not possible, you cannot get a plasma that is ANYWHERE as near as our current pioneer elite. NOT in 1 yr and even if such did happen it WILL be more expensive.

If Panasonic implement NeoPDP ECO in 2010, the answer is in 1 year and (since the greater efficiency power reduces costs) I would not bet on a higher price tag.

That said, you may still want to get a Kuro and enjoy and otherwise painful year ;)

- Rich

neo pdp is not going to be beter or equal in every area where the pioneer elite still offers better PQ.


If Panasonic implement NeoPDP ECO in 2010, the answer is in 1 year and (since the greater efficiency power reduces costs) I would not bet on a higher price tag.

That said, you may still want to get a Kuro and enjoy and otherwise painful year ;)

- Rich

Tayc what happen with CRT TUBES and flat screens?

ill tell you, crt tube was better and over the course of years the only thing that has proven to be better is a pioneer elite when compared to a true HD CRT TUBE.

so what im trying to say is even after time passes by just because its "NEWER" it does not mean it wil be better.

You want us to explain why the pioneer elite is better? technicly why or how? its just "BETTER" then anything PERIOD.

you were not in a cave right?
Anyone care to provide the specific reasoning that nothing will match the Kuro anywhere from 2-5 years?


I know a year is not probable, but come on, 5 years? In 5 years we'll have programmable matter, and somehow Panasonic won't manage to match the black level of an older TV? I want a scientific explanation. I just don't like it when people pop in and say, "2 years."

You want us to explain why the pioneer elite is better? technicly why or how? its just "BETTER" then anything PERIOD.

you were not in a cave right?

Not really.

This does not look like it is heading anywhere, so I will respectfully bow out ;)

- Rich

This thread is for the Pioneer Owners to qualify there purchasing decision. It is a great display but I feel within two years it will be equaled.

Better buy your Kuro now! I'm still looking and waiting for the Panasonic panels to be review before making my decision.

FYI- I checked with the local Pioneer service center today and asked what a replacement plasma panel costs for the elite pro 151. Cost of panel only is $3500 plus labor and.......Pioneer has none available. Very interesting.

rich b i was saying to tayc as he asked


Originally Posted by TayC
Anyone care to provide the specific reasoning that nothing will match the Kuro anywhere from 2-5 years?
Not really.

This does not look like it is heading anywhere, so I will respectfully bow out ;)

- Rich


when have you actually see a pioneer breaking down? i havnt seen not 1 avs poster
and sorry but based on the fact and numbers their is only the neo pdp and nothing else close to pioneer elite

This thread is for the Pioneer Owners to qualify there purchasing decision. It is a great display but I feel within two years it will be equaled.

Better buy your Kuro now! I'm still looking and waiting for the Panasonic panels to be review before making my decision.

FYI- I checked with the local Pioneer service center today and asked what a replacement plasma panel costs for the elite pro 151. Cost of panel only is $3500 plus labor and.......Pioneer has none available. Very interesting.

Tayc what happen with CRT TUBES and flat screens?

ill tell you, crt tube was better and over the course of years the only thing that has proven to be better is a pioneer elite when compared to a true HD CRT TUBE.

so what im trying to say is even after time passes by just because its "NEWER" it does not mean it wil be better.

You want us to explain why the pioneer elite is better? technicly why or how? its just "BETTER" then anything PERIOD.

you were not in a cave right?

What I was saying with my post was that technology improves every year in every kind of tech. Now let me ask you again: why is it that Panasonic and their engineers won't be able to make a TV that will beat the Kuro within the next 2 years? Too expensive, difficult, impossible? Their engineers aren't smart enough? I just want to know the reasons, and if possible, specific information about the technical problems with achieving a black level better than, or at least equal to, the Kuro.

I understand that the Kuro is universally praised as the best flat panel ever, and I know that age isn't the key difference in determining PQ. CRTs are still better with black levels and motion. I was simply asking a question that no one has answered with scientific reasoning. Meaning, what exactly are Panasonic's technological limitations in exceeding the Kuro. That's all I'm wondering. Everyone seems to know since they give their answers in 'years', but they don't say 'why' or 'how'. This is the Audio Video Science Forum and I want to learn. :)

TayC, of course what you read from the devotees of kuro is not scientifically based. Panasonic, Samsung, LG, and Hitachi I'm sure have their own team of well qualified scientist, engineers, and technicians just as qualified to make superior products.
In fact I'm sure if were to ask the professionals at Pioneer they would say the same. What you're reading is just part of the grieving process. In time much of this will pass for some here.:cool:

from a prospective buyers standpoint, i couldnt tell much difference in the 8g panels from any of the competitors. from a black level standpoint, the 8g blacks looked cleaner, not necessarily darker. on the 9g's the blacks are definently darker, but not to the point that endless avs posters make it out to be. i can see the difference in letterbox bars and the bezel when i viewed it in a very dark room. if i focus on the picture with the letterbox bars in the back of my mind they do fade into the bezel, but thats also the case with my panny thats 3 years old. to anyone whos buying, the 9g elites are ineed the best flat panels out there in the world today, but not because of the black levels. its the video processing, color and gray scale control, and a better black level that its competitors that make it the best. i would also stay away from the kuro pictures thread. it is entirely misleading.

What I was saying with my post was that technology improves every year in every kind of tech. Now let me ask you again: why is it that Panasonic and their engineers won't be able to make a TV that will beat the Kuro within the next 2 years? Too expensive, difficult, impossible? Their engineers aren't smart enough? I just want to know the reasons, and if possible, specific information about the technical problems with achieving a black level better than, or at least equal to, the Kuro.

I understand that the Kuro is universally praised as the best flat panel ever, and I know that age isn't the key difference in determining PQ. CRTs are still better with black levels and motion. I was simply asking a question that no one has answered with scientific reasoning. Meaning, what exactly are Panasonic's technological limitations in exceeding the Kuro. That's all I'm wondering. Everyone seems to know since they give their answers in 'years', but they don't say 'why' or 'how'. This is the Audio Video Science Forum and I want to learn. :)

The public is not ready to pay the price for a tv that is better than the elite. Pioneer did the trial and it failed. Others could follow, but choose not too. The $$ to be made in the next 2 years is mass producing 1500 dollar 50" tv sets. Maybe after 3 years the public will again be ready to drop 7k for a tv, AND the manufacturers will perhaps by then, know how to manufacturer one without it losing them money in the process.

Anyone with cash can make a better tv....finding a solution that can make you rich is a whole separate level of technology. Pioneer has given the rest a good lesson on what works and what does not. This is why oled is not panning out so quickly. Likely why sed is dead as well. Projects are being aborted.

AT 900 dollars an ounce, some gold mines are profitable...at 400 dollars an ounce very few mines are profitable...same goes for oil...and it appears same goes for selling tvs. 7k for 60" is a tuff go.

The public is not ready to pay the price for a tv that is better than the elite. Pioneer did the trial and it failed. Others could follow, but choose not too. The $$ to be made in the next 2 years is mass producing 1500 dollar 50" tv sets. Maybe after 3 years the public will again be ready to drop 7k for a tv, AND the manufacturers will perhaps by then, know how to manufacturer one without it losing them money in the process.

Don't confuse great engineering with making a profit. As has been discussed Pioneer had a inefficient manufacturing facility, extremely poor management which led to high cost. If you had the Kuro manufactured in Panasonic's new facility it would be considerably less. No we will not have to pay 7k as Pioneer has shown that dog don't hunt.

Don't confuse great engineering with making a profit. As has been discussed Pioneer had a inefficient manufacturing facility, extremely poor management which led to high cost. If you had the Kuro manufactured in Panasonic's new facility it would be considerably less. No we will not have to pay 7k as Pioneer has shown that dog don't hunt.

Hi,

I am a avid Kuro Fan but very far indeed from being a Pioneer Fan although I have bought a number of their products over decades. I have to agree with your post - The Kuro's were made unnecessarily more costly due to monumentally poor and biblically arrogant Pioneer management throughout the whole Kuro period. They had a product which when introduced was at least 3 years ahead in technological and performance terms and their pipeline research guaranteed them that same advantage over everyone else for a very long time. They had world wide industry and user accolade like no other and a very high product appeal. Yet despite all of this, in less than 3 years they wiped that all away. Pioneer management & strategy had condemned Kuro to a very short life indeed - talk about the killing the goose that lays the golden egg - what an absolute disgrace imho.

Bazzy!

FYI- I checked with the local Pioneer service center today and asked what a replacement plasma panel costs for the elite pro 151. Cost of panel only is $3500 plus labor and.......Pioneer has none available. Very interesting.

If a plasma TV needs a new panel, the TV is more or less at the point of being not worth fixing, no matter what the brand. With just about all brands, you will probably find that the price of only just the panel itself even without the labor needed to swap it out, pretty much makes it insane to replace it. If the panel is not under a warranty replacement for some reason, like if someone threw a Wii controller into the panel and cracked it. Why would anyone even want to spend 75%-90% the price of a entire new, just TV to replace a panel?

Hi,

I am a avid Kuro Fan but very far indeed from being a Pioneer Fan although I have bought a number of their products over decades. I have to agree with your post - The Kuro's were made unnecessarily more costly due to monumentally poor and biblically arrogant Pioneer management throughout the whole Kuro period. They had a product which when introduced was at least 3 years ahead in technological and performance terms and their pipeline research guaranteed them that same advantage over everyone else for a very long time. They had world wide industry and user accolade like no other and a very high product appeal. Yet despite all of this, in less than 3 years they wiped that all away. Pioneer management & strategy had condemned Kuro to a very short life indeed - talk about the killing the goose that lays the golden egg - what an absolute disgrace imho.

Bazzy!

We got it. Rest assured, their management has fallen on their sword ;)

- Rich

We got it. Rest assured, their management has fallen on their sword ;)

- Rich

Hi,

RichB, trust me, it is not something that makes me happy or I find any pleasure in - the very sad part is firstly that ten thousand people with families to feed will have lost their jobs and livelihoods over this, that alone is devastating enough. Secondly, the plasma market and customers lose as does a great product line up that could have had a very noble history for a long time to come. The Pioneer Management, like all corporate management's it seems these days, will have very little to worry about as far their lifestyles, finances or assets are concerned.

Peace,

Bazzy!

their secret sauce their patent stuff and i dont know what else im not an engineer, though i would want to beleive that someone else would make better tvs but its not the case for quite a few yrs to come.

What I was saying with my post was that technology improves every year in every kind of tech. Now let me ask you again: why is it that Panasonic and their engineers won't be able to make a TV that will beat the Kuro within the next 2 years? Too expensive, difficult, impossible? Their engineers aren't smart enough? I just want to know the reasons, and if possible, specific information about the technical problems with achieving a black level better than, or at least equal to, the Kuro.

I understand that the Kuro is universally praised as the best flat panel ever, and I know that age isn't the key difference in determining PQ. CRTs are still better with black levels and motion. I was simply asking a question that no one has answered with scientific reasoning. Meaning, what exactly are Panasonic's technological limitations in exceeding the Kuro. That's all I'm wondering. Everyone seems to know since they give their answers in 'years', but they don't say 'why' or 'how'. This is the Audio Video Science Forum and I want to learn. :)

I'll have verification of this within the next 72 hours.Did you manage to get some more info on NeoPDP Eco?

Looking at Panasonic presentation material I was surprised to see them so upfront in announcing that, by 2010, they'd have NeoPDP Eco with Infinite contrast.

It's a *strong* incentive for waiting one more year (especially for people who already have a 50", which is my case).

Edit: and please, people, don't chime in just to say "you'll wait indefinitely, blah, blah". I bought a commercial 50" Panasonic in 2005. I spent about four thousand euros for it. I could totally live for another year on that investment and consider spending my money next year. I want to go 60"+ but I'm not in such a hurry to throw money out of the window.