I had an very old antenna in the attic that I never knew what it was. I finally replaced it today with a Wingard HD7696P. I am about 28 miles from my source (Empire State Building). I also have a Channel Master 7777 amp on the line. My signal averages 50% but it bounces all the way down to 0 and sometimes to 80.

I really thought this size antenna would solve the problem. It did not make any difference over the old antenna. I even bypassed the amp and splitter but nothing improves the signal. I do have a ravine of large trees North of my house that are about 300' feet away and probably twice as tall as the house.

Any ideas?

Could you see the Empire State building if the trees were not present?
Have you checked antennaweb.org with your street address?

Sounds like a problem with multipath in the attic as well as possible issues with overloaded pre-amp or tuner. Please post your current all channel tvfool. It is very possible that you have very high analog signals in your area. Also post your fmfool results. You may be getting overload in the high vhf range due to nearby FM stations.

I updated the attachment to include all channels. FYI I am not too techy on antenna stuff..... Thanks

You may be getting overload in the high vhf range due to nearby FM stations.

There are 42 FM stations that are line of sight to Matawan, NJ. But it's not their strength, it's the number of stations, both FM and TV.

Is there a distribution amplifier? If so, remove it.

If not, start by troubleshooting the analog signals. Use this guide: http://www.kyes.com/antenna/interference/tvibook.html

What do the analog signals look like? Compare the Low band VHF to the High band VHF to the UHF stations.

Get rid of the preamp.

You made the most common guy's mistake out there as in Tim Allen from "Home Improvement"

Get rid of the preamp.

You made the most common guy's mistake out there as in Tim Allen from "Home Improvement"As I stated in my first post I got rid of the amp and splitters. No difference.

As I stated in my first post I got rid of the amp and splitters. No difference.Did you bypass "both" the pre-amp, & power supply; then run RG-6 coax cable directly to just 1 TV?

The antenna wire goes to the basement. There everything meets up to a splitter. I unplugged the splitter and 777 Channel Master (from the antenna and the basement). Nothing improved the signal.

What I don't get is the bouncy signal. I can get every station locked for seconds to minutes. And then it just cuts in/out all day long. I have two TV's, one HD and the other with a converter. Both have the same issue.

The bouncy signal meter is indicating unstable, reflected signals. You may need to move the antenna to a different spot in the attic, or better yet, on the roof.(If possible)

How do the analog channels look?

The bouncy signal meter is indicating unstable, reflected signals. You may need to move the antenna to a different spot in the attic, or better yet, on the roof.(If possible)

How do the analog channels look?Before the change the analog signals were excellent except CBS. With the new antenna the analogs are terrible. I still have the old antenna in the attic just laying on the floor. I will get rid of that next. As for moving it to another location I don't have any options.

I have seen posts from users who put aluminum foil behind an attic antenna to prevent reflected signals from the rear.
Are all analog channels bad or just the one lower then channel 6?

http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewitem.asp?p=HD7696P

Following is a link that describes what one person went through to correct multi-path (has before and after spectrum analyzer displays). Note that there are 2 pages within this link.

http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~wn17/ (http://www.prism.gatech.edu/%7Ewn17/)

ATSC tuners are not very good a handling dynamic multi-path (e.g. swaying trees, nearby airpcraft, trucks etc.).

Also coax transmission line picks up a lot of multi-path (see post 1957).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=798265&page=66

The old antenna may be exacerbating multipath interference. Getting it out of the attic should help some, but it isn't the only reason for such serious reception issues. Beyond that, one has to wonder about aiming, or a poor electrical connection somewhere. You've already eliminated the amp and splitter as causes. Look at:

* Aiming. If the antenna's off by as little as 30 degrees, that can easily cause multipath issues from a directional model like the 7696. Verify that the antenna's open end is pointing at the ESB; on a compass, it should be just about due northeast.

* Damaged coax cable. Replace any that might be questionable.

* A bad (or simply loose) screw-on F-connector somewhere. Replace.

* "Push-on" coax anywhere in the downlead, from antenna to tuner. These are fine for use between a converter box and an analog TV, but they don't maintain a good signal path in an OTA antenna downlead. Use screw-on connectors instead.

* Poor mechanical connection inside the antenna's plastic coax terminal. These snap-on boxes rely on metal tabs to couple the signals with the built-in balun and the coax. Improper installation and/or damage during transit could compromise one side of this connection. The fix may be as simple as bending one tab back into proper alignment.

We removed the old antenna today. No better. I reinstalled the 7777 preamp and got a slightly stronger signal when I swapped out the push on connector with a screw-on type. All the connections are now screw-on.

Next step I will bring the Samsung panel upstairs and snake a wire directly from the antenna to the TV. The run will be about 25'.

The odd part is I installed a converter box today in the bedroom TV and the signal although not great does not cut-out like the Samsung does. It seems my test bed might be part of the issue. I had assumed the Samsung would have a better tuner than the converters.

I had assumed the Samsung would have a better tuner than the converters.

Counterintuitive, isn't it? Lots of other people have noticed the same thing. The way manufacturers see it:

* Eighty-five percent of households nationally have some kind of pay-TV service, to which the great majority of new integrated HDTVs will be connected.

* One hundred percent of converter-box (CECB) buyers will rely on an antenna for TV reception. Not only that, many of those antennas will be ratty old rabbit ears.

The makers save money by cutting corners on the HDTV tuners because a great tuner isn't needed when the signal source is a pay-TV provider. If they tried to do that with the CECBs, they'd be in an unending nightmare of consumer complaints, unit returns, operating losses and, possibly, government investigations. Ergo, CECB tuners are very often better than those in integrated HDTVs.

Your problem may not be low digital signal strength it may be high digital signal strength, since digital tuners when receiving too high signal strength since digital tuners unlike analog tuners will cut out with too high signal strength.

Your problem may not be low digital signal strength it may be high digital signal strength, since digital tuners when receiving too high signal strength since digital tuners unlike analog tuners will cut out with too high signal strength.Not sure about that, it if was too high I think I would see some high spikes now and then, they are very rare. Usually the signal meters are around 50%, dances to 60% sometimes and bottoms to 20% rather often. I only saw a peak of 80% two or three times. I also tried a Silver Sensor antenna and can't get squat for signal so I don't think my signal coverage is very good where I am.

It was just a thought and I was not sure if th signal strength meter was associated with or independent of the tuner.

Hey Gary, I live in nearby Morganville. I too have serious problems with signals from NYC with no resolve. Strangely I can pick up Philly stations with out issue, according to TVfool it should be very unlikely I would get a good signal from Philly with an indoor antenna.

Could the span of water between us and NYC cause such an issue......maybe reflective multipath?

How do your LO/HI VHF channels look?

Hey Gary, I live in nearby Morganville. I too have serious problems with signals from NYC with no resolve. Strangely I can pick up Philly stations with out issue, according to TVfool it should be very unlikely I would get a good signal from Philly with an indoor antenna.

Could the span of water between us and NYC cause such an issue......maybe reflective multipath?

How do your LO/HI VHF channels look?I remember a couple of years ago when I tried to improve my signal someone from Long Branch was puzzled how I could not get a good signal, he had no issues. Long Branch is about 8 miles more from the ESB. I moved the Samsung upstairs to the bedroom feed and it was no better. So I doubt running a cable directly from the antenna will prove anything. I am more convinced now that the Samsung tuner is junk, both of the converter boxes do a much better job at locking a signal.

We might have to wait until the analogs go down in June. From what I understand the channels will move and the power will go up.

We might have to wait until the analogs go down in June. From what I understand the channels will move and the power will go up.

My Toshiba TV is not as good as my el cheapo Ölevia LCD. The Ölevia is newer and the newer chip set often found in the converter boxes which mostly have the newer chips.

Stations all raising their power in June is another one of those myths. Yes some will and more on VHF than on UHF. But there is only one way to find out. That is to go station by station with their call sign through the FCC web site that I have found. Then you have to look and see if they have a listing for higher power. To know exactly you have to go into the application filings to know when they will raise power. It's very tedious procedure.
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/audio/tvq.html

But to assume they will all raise power my turn out very disappointing.

One thing no one has asked you is if you see a lot of sparkles on analog stations (they will be worse if you see them on VHF). Actually if you see sparkles on UHF there is intense electrical interference near you. If you see it may or maynot be in your house or much under your control.

And/Or do you see a lot of ghosts on analog channels? That would show the mulitpath some have suggested might be the problem.

You might also know there is a ruling by the FCC that homeowners and local laws can't tell you that you can't put up an outside antenna. Now it maybe a huge battle though.
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

One thing no one has asked you is if you see a lot of sparkles on analog stations (they will be worse if you see them on VHF). Actually if you see sparkles on UHF there is intense electrical interference near you. If you see it may or maynot be in your house or much under your control.

And/Or do you see a lot of ghosts on analog channels? That would show the mulitpath some have suggested might be the problem.
I don't see any sparkles on analog or digital. My analogs were great except WCBS, it always had static in the picture. What makes these digitals so crazy is the day to day changes in what I receive. Today the we can't lock any channel.

What is the model of the Ssamsung and how old is it?

What is the model of the Ssamsung and how old is it?I got it in November 2008 to replace a 13" CRT in the kitchen. The model is LN19A450. PQ is ok but the sound is very tinny.

I don't see any sparkles on analog or digital. My analogs were great except WCBS, it always had static in the picture. What makes these digitals so crazy is the day to day changes in what I receive. Today the we can't lock any channel.

Take notice of the cloud cover. One of the days I was testing outside antenna positions, there was heavy cloud cover. I got some decent readings from NYC though erattic, the next day the clouds blew out and I got nothing not even a sniff.

I too have noticed that the standard definiton CECB box on one of my older tv's is better then the integrated tuner on my Vizio LCD. It's weird.

If watching a program filmed with an SD camera I would expect a CECB box's SD output to an older CRT based TV to have better PQ then that of a LCD HDTV. For programs "filmed" with HD resolution source I would expect the LDC HDTV to be better.

If watching a program filmed with an SD camera I would expect a CECB box's SD output to an older CRT based TV to have better PQ then that of a LCD HDTV. For programs "filmed" with HD resolution source I would expect the LDC HDTV to be better.

While this is true, I believe the topic was actually decoding and locking the ATSC OTA signal.

I don't see any sparkles on analog or digital. My analogs were great except WCBS, it always had static in the picture. What makes these digitals so crazy is the day to day changes in what I receive. Today the we can't lock any channel.

I looked up WCBS in the FCC Query and it says it's on RF ch2 analog, which will always in all markets have sparkles in 95% of the cases.

So that somewhat eliminates electrical interference, at least to the degree you are having troubles. You didn't mention if the analogs have ghosts. Even if they don't that is a harder call, unless they are near the same RF Channel and from the same tower or the Empire State Building.

So much has been eliminated it's starting to sound like you just don't have enough signal, despite what your TVFool radar plot indicates.

There might be some metallic material used in the roofing since your antenna is in the attic. Some attics have a full to partial wall also. More often in new construction the walls have metallic foil vapor barriers. It depends if you are shooting through the roof or a wall from the attic and building materials.

Something is drastically reducing the signals you are seeing compared to TVFool plot.

See if you can find out what materials are in your roof and walls.

Whoops my above post was to nicoge21's post and not to the OP's subject for this thread.

So that somewhat eliminates electrical interference, at least to the degree you are having troubles. You didn't mention if the analogs have ghosts.

There might be some metallic material used in the roofing since your antenna is in the attic. Some attics have a full to partial wall also. More often in new construction the walls have metallic foil vapor barriers. It depends if you are shooting through the roof or a wall from the attic and building materials.

See if you can find out what materials are in your roof and walls.The house was built in 1962. We have vinyl siding. The roof was replaced in the early 90's. I don't see any metal inside the attic roof. No ghosting on the analog channels.

Whoops my above post was to nicoge21's post and not to the OP's subject for this thread.

It's cool! I should have added if I never mess up my name isn't Piggie! :@)

Oh, I also should have said not to sound bad, that I was concerned the OP might get confused. I try hard to stay friends with everyone here! :@)

The house was built in 1962. We have vinyl siding. The roof was replaced in the early 90's. I don't see any metal inside the attic roof. No ghosting on the analog channels.

And I guess it's not a metal roof?

What throws such a wrench in my understanding is you have now gone through everything I know and then some others asked.

No Amp, no electric noise, no ghosts. No metal in front of the antenna.

Then you add that all your channels in one direction (30 degrees) are all in the 50's db (NM), normally enough to a moderate antenna at only 26 miles.

If the fades were brief it might be air traffic as that is a busy air corridor. But your fades sound deep and long just like you are trying to receive a weak station over at least a 1 edge situation.

From my experience what you are describing won't be cured with an even bigger antenna. You need about 10 to 15 more db of gain.

I hope someone out there has an epiphany, as right now I am stumped.

Whoops my above post was to nicoge21's post and not to the OP's subject for this thread.

What I meant was that the CECB can sometimes get better signal strength then the integrated tuner in my LCD, and, both pick up channels that the other one won't even with the antenna in the same spot.

What I meant was that the CECB can sometimes get better signal strength then the integrated tuner in my LCD, and, both pick up channels that the other one won't even with the antenna in the same spot.

I have noticed that also. My son has one of the early Insigna (think they are RCA clones?) and it out does his big Vizzio 42 inch to pick up RF ch9 here as it's directional, a challenge at 37 miles and 0.86 KW in our direction. His elcheapo box does much better than the TV.

Then weird enough I have a Ölevia low end Chinese 32 LCD that has the best receiver in my house. It is way better than my 26 inch Toshiba (that always made great TVs in the past), my software driven USB tuner or my Insignia tuner.

It just doesn't follow any logic how good any given device receives, but the CECBs do tend to be the best. odd enough!

I can lock in our local CBS affiliate @ 67% on a clear day with my ANTEC T3AP and my Magnavox CECB's connected to a 1986 wood grain console tv I have. My LCD locks it in barely @ 42% with drop outs.

And I guess it's not a metal roof?

If the fades were brief it might be air traffic as that is a busy air corridor. But your fades sound deep and long just like you are trying to receive a weak station over at least a 1 edge situation.

The roof is standard shingle type, no metal. The fades are brief but very frequent. When it goes out it does not last more than 4 seconds. But the outages are every 10-30 seconds. There is no channel that says no signal forever. I always get a lock but not for very long. WCBS-DT is our strongest channel with the least amount of issues. Today was an unusual day, we had more no signal than any other day, and the weather was decent today.

I wish I had a neighbor with OTA. Everyone has cable, FIOS or Sat.

Enclosed is a photo showing the trees across the street. The photo was taken from my driveway. I am thinking the trees are my issue.

I hope someone out there has an epiphany, as right now I am stumped.

Ok, it's bad when you quote yourself, then again check my nick, lol.

I checked the current digital of WCBS, WNBC and WABC. It looks like they are elliptically polarized or at least have construction permits.

Now if they are all the same direction polarization, you might do better with a circular antenna. I don't even know if you can buy them. Most people make them by taking two of the same antenna, one vertical and one horz, with a phasing harness. It gets out of hand fast unless you are a big experimenter.

Even that would only give you 3 more db and it sounds like you need more than that.

Real experimental would be stacked homemade rhombics both horz and vert with phasing for circular. Together that would get up around 15 to 18 db on circular, but probably would not fit in your attic! It would also be a phasing nightmare.

This is a big mystery unless you TVFool plot is wrong... Back to the drawing board...

This is a big mystery unless you TVFool plot is wrong... Back to the drawing board...I know that we are no more than 30 air miles from Empire State Building. Past that I don't know what I could verify. Poster, ZombieTheater mentioned he has issues in MorganVille which is about 7 miles south of me. I do have a friend in Freehold NJ which is about 12 miles south of me and he can't get the ESB at all but has no issues receiving the Philly stations. And that makes no sense to me, Philly is 65 miles vs 40 for the ESB.

I know that we are no more than 30 air miles from Empire State Building. Past that I don't know what I could verify. Poster, ZombieTheater mentioned he has issues in MorganVille which is about 7 miles south of me. I do have a friend in Freehold NJ which is about 12 miles south of me and he can't get the ESB at all but has no issues receiving the Philly stations. And that makes no sense to me, Philly is 65 miles vs 40 for the ESB.

Maybe TVFool takes into account geographic hills, etc, but not all the buildings between ESB and you?

A good place to go would be the TVFool thread and ask. And also go to your local thread and ask.

TV Fool Thread
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=841787&page=16

Here is the index of local threads, NYC being on top. But they also have a central NJ thread there for OTA.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=453241
You may find answers there.

The really confusing part of the Op's problem is stated in the following quote from post #15

"The odd part is I installed a converter box today in the bedroom TV and the signal although not great does not cut-out like the Samsung does."

The really confusing part of the Op's problem is stated in the following quote from post #15

"The odd part is I installed a converter box today in the bedroom TV and the signal although not great does not cut-out like the Samsung does."

Well good point I seem to have lost toward the end. From all the test, etc, it's just a lack of signal. Same result in receiver that is not as good as a CECB. I am thinking about getting one for my Toshiba, even though it's wide screen 26 inch, it's a 480i tube, so I should see about the same picture. It's receiver can make one crazy it's so picky, but only on VHF. UHF it hangs with the best of my other receivers.

Maybe TVFool takes into account geographic hills, etc, but not all the buildings between ESB and you?

TVFool says as much on their site. They make no allowances at all for trees or buildings.

The amount of signal absorbed by trees is somewhere between "20 db" and "completely absorb all UHF signals", depending on who you ask.

Buildings are more likely to bounce RF signals than absorb them, making reception more like a game of billiards.

Multipath? Yeah, that too.

TV Fool is whack. I would not trust it. In my area of Brooklyn they show stations I can't get green with a indoor antenna like WCBS and WNET and one station I get really strong yellow WFME saying that is weak. Also I follow where they tell me to point the antenna and the NYC stations are much worse. I got to point it at nearly the opposite direction that they said to get most of the stations good. Like I said you don't know how good or bad your OTA reception is in your area until you try antennas and see how it is. All TV Fool is good for is showing you the channels RF channel. This is using a indoor antenna.

TV Fool is whack. I would not trust it. In my area of Brooklyn they show stations I can't get green with a indoor antenna like WCBS and WNET and one station I get really strong yellow WFME saying that is weak. Also I follow where they tell me to point the antenna and the NYC stations are much worse. I got to point it at nearly the opposite direction that they said to get most of the stations good. Like I said you don't know how good or bad your OTA reception is in your area until you try antennas and see how it is. All TV Fool is good for is showing you the channels RF channel. This is using a indoor antenna.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Mine is TVFool run by volunteers far out does Antennaweb.org run by "professionals".

I use TVFool all the time and up until this thread it has given the information I need to help people select the best antenna using what I know about antennas. I consider it a major blessing. It doesn't hand it to me on a plate to tell me buy Company X Model Y. It's resource and a very valuable resource.

Obviously as I have learned here in this thread, NYC is a brutal RF environment.

What you are describing with pointing your antenna the opposite way is classical mulitpath. When you point at the transmitter the multipath is so intense you can't lock. But when you point away, you are getting one strong reflection from something, probably a building. I have seen this many times in my life.

And I agree, in the end, when you place antenna in the proximity of other objects such as trees, building, planes landing near an airport, helicopters flying over, your house, apt building, etc, you are in a less than perfect world. Being able to predict propagation under those conditions gets so mathematically complex, a sight survey is easier. Which is exactly what you do when you try an antenna.

Sites like AntennaWeb and TVFool only gets one close. As the other person above your post states, it says on the TVFool web site there are factors they can't take into account for every spot in the country.

And if it's only good as a reference to you to find the real RF channel, I would say that is a very valuable start to finding a station.

What you are describing with pointing your antenna the opposite way is classical mulitpath. When you point at the transmitter the multipath is so intense you can't lock. But when you point away, you are getting one strong reflection from something, probably a building. I have seen this many times in my life.


Did not know that but it is so true. I try pointing my Terk HDTVi at the ESB and the reception is really weak but when I point it east the reception is much better.

A few other suggestions:

1) Move the antenna - if it is not possible with the boom/Yagi style Winegard, try a bow-tie class antenna, such as a DB4 or CM4221. These are very easy to move around in the attic. They are also a lot easier to test in a window, outside, etc. These are UHF antennas, so you would probably want to combine with the 769 for upper VHF later.

Attics have dead zones and your antenna may be in one.

2) Have you tried mounting an antenna outside, at least for test purposes? Do you have a rabbit ear/loop combo that you can use for test purposes?

3) Change the 7777 to "separates" (interior switch) and ONLY amplify UHF for now. We can worry about VHF later. This appears to be largely a UHF problem.

4) Double check your analog signals above channel 13. I suspect that the ones that used to look good were in the 2-13 range. If you have a digital camera, let's look at the following analog channels:

25, 31, 41, 47 & 68

If not, please report on these specifically vs. all other analog channels. These are the analog UHF stations coming from the ESB direction. I'm surprised there are so few.

5) Can you take a picture on how the antenna is situated in the attic?

1) Move the antenna - if it is not possible

2) Have you tried mounting an antenna outside, at least for test purposes? Do you have a rabbit ear/loop combo that you can use for test purposes?

4) Double check your analog signals above channel 13. I suspect that the ones that used to look good were in the 2-13 range. If you have a digital camera, let's look at the following analog channels:

25, 31, 41, 47 & 68

5) Can you take a picture on how the antenna is situated in the attic?Getting the antenna out of the attic for a test can't happen. Once you extend those poles they are almost impossible to close down again. I tried and gave up. I do have a Silver Sensor antenna and I get very little reception with it hanging out the window. The only channel I can sometimes see is CBS (2-1).

I took the bedroom TV and hooked it up via analog and the analogs are terrible with the Winegard antenna. CBS (2), NBC (4) and FOX (5) are unwatchable. ABC (7) and WOR (9) are crystal clear, CW (11) has some issues but is good. I am unable to get any stations above 13, it's all snow.

The following specs for your HD antenna state that is for channels 7-69

http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewitem~p~HD7696P~d~Winegard-HD-7696P-High-Definition-VHFUHF-HD7696-Series-Antenna-(HD7696P)~post~.htm

Also OTA and cable use slightly different frequencies for analog channels above channel 13. Many TVs have separate connectors for antenna and cable analog due to this.

I took the bedroom TV and hooked it up via analog and the analogs are terrible with the Winegard antenna. CBS (2), NBC (4) and FOX (5) are unwatchable. ABC (7) and WOR (9) are crystal clear, CW (11) has some issues but is good. I am unable to get any stations above 13, it's all snow.

Is the bedroom TV in "air" mode or "cable" mode? Make sure it is in "air" mode, otherwise you won't see channels above 13 (though some TV's will display them starting in the 60's and 70's when in cable mode).

The Winegard 769 isn't designed for Low VHF, so the results for 2-5 aren't surprising.

7, 11 & 13 will be returning to VHF whenever the transition actually happens. It sounds like you will be in good shape for those.

I’m not there; but is your house two story?

In most situations this should be a very easy fix.

According to the FCC map you are still in an interim transition period. Still this should no problem.

EXCEPT for the fact there is a tremendous amount of RF conflicts in your area that will not go away until after June 12th – This problem was created by the FCC and there is nothing you can do about it.

The Samsung turner should be excellent, unless it is broke? (yep seen that one too).

I have used this map for you primary digital stations, and all are at NNE 42. Your specific address may yield something a little different?

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/

When you blow up the data, this the primary stations I come up with, along with the current RF number and the “final” RF assignment.

Digital number on set – Current RF – Final RF (should be on June 13th?)

2-1 56-33
5-1 44
4-1 28
7-1 45-7
13-1 61-13
11-1 33-11


Here is a fast quick cheap and easy test to fix it. Go buy the cheapest Rabbit Ear you can get. Big Lots sells them for $3. And Best Buy sells them for $10 (make sure the ears will attach solid in the base, if they are lose, the rabbit is broken – yes you have to thread the ears in – they must be tight). Powered Rabbits almost "never" work correctly and create more problems then they solve.

Take the Samsung upstairs, hook the rabbit ear direct to the TV. Make one ear about 8” and the other about 12”, place in wide V. Scan your digital stations. Did it lock into those digital stations? Are they solid? Or do the stations still pop on and off? Or none at all? For now lets focus on just your core stations........if there are other "must have" stations, and we have made progress then let me know which ones. Also, as others have said "water" can create monster multipath issues for digital, so will try to figure out if that is happening here.

This will either work or it will not.

Let me know what happens and will try to take it to the next level.