I have been remoddeling my basement into a HT and have finally gotten it to the point of being functional. During the planning/dreaming process I had thought that putting some shakers in the couch would be a cool idea but never really had any immediate plans to do so. Then I got an email from part express that featured the Seismic Sofa (http://www.parts-express.com/projectshowcase/indexn.cfm?project=seismicSofa) project and it got the creative juices flowing again.

Last weekend Nebraska Furniture Mart had a good sale so I picked up the sofa that I've had my eye on for a while. Looks similar to this:
http://www.ashleyfurniture.com/Graphics/Web/Large/6430138_KO.gif

I have been researching amps for a while. The PE project used a 240W plate amp but I really don't want to cut holes in the couch. I could probably build a box for it that I could put under the end table but I thought that it would be alot better to get something that I could put in my rack since I have the extra space. Then yesterday I found the AMPSUB210 refurbished on ebay for a good price so I decided to pick it up.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3622/3328305827_950c1b0771_b.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3544/3329140176_476eef61fb_b.jpg

Here's a link to the manual: (ftp://www.rodinaudio.com/AudioSource/Manuals/Electronics/AMPSUB210%20Manual.pdf)

Now I just need to figure out where I can get some rack ears for it. Rodin Audio (Audiosource) has confirmed that they do exist and the part number is AMP2UEAR. They said the store I purchesed the amp from should be able to get them for me but the ebay seller has not returned my email yet, I am guessing he can't get them. Parts Express said they might be able to special order them but I am still waiting an email back from them as well.

The PE project used the Clark Synthesis Tactile Transducers (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-863), but I have been comparing them to a few other options; the Aura Pro Bass Shakers (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=299-028) and the Ibeam (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-920). Seems to me, given that the Auras produce 30lb/ft and the Clarks produce 297 lb/ft, that the Clarks are a better deal. I have not found the rating on the Ibeam, but I am not even sure if it would work well in a couch or if it was designed more to go under a floor. It seems alot of people use the bass shakers around here, doesn anyone have experience with the Clarks? I have heard they are more responsive and it looks like they handle more power.

Oh yeah, I heard back from Parts Express, they said they would special order the ears for me at $15 plus shipping and 4-6 weeks for delivery. The ebay seller said he was waiting to hear back from Rodin but I'll probably just go with PE. I doubt the other guy is going to be any cheaper anyway.

I was debating with a friend of mine the other day about the best way to hook up 2 transducers. I thought since this amp has 2 sets of outputs that maybe it would be better to run one from each output. The problem is that the manual specifies that if you use both that it it must be an 8ohm load and the clarks are 4ohm. If I connect them in series it would give an 8ohm load on the amp which should deliver 150W at 8ohms. This would give 75W to each transducer. Does this sound correct? The specs of the clarks say that the amplifier should be able to deliver 75 to 100W at 4ohms. Does this all sound kosher? I am new to this sort of thing and it has been a long time since I had to study this in physics class.

Anyone?

I have been using tactile transducers for over 10 years.

My first installation was an array of 8 RBH FX-80's. (ultra high performance Aura units)
I used these for about a year and replaced the array with a pair of Clark Synthesis TST 329 Gold models and then stepped up to their TST 429 Platinums. I used these for about a year as well.
For a brief period I installed four Crowsen Tech TES-100's when they were released.

When I moved on to the ButtKicker I started out with a pair of original models. I drove each with a Carvin DCM-1000 stereo amplifier bridged mono. (1000 w @ 4 ohms) This was well before the release of the ButtKicker amplifier. Shortly after I purchased another pair of ButtKicker original models. The ButtKicker II/ButtKicker LFE model had not made it's debut yet.

I couldn't tolerate the fan noise of the Carvin professional amplifiers so I picked up a pair of also professional but convection cooled Crown K2 stereo amplifiers (800 W @ 4 ohms per ch) and have been using them to drive my BK's ever since.

At one point I have driven a single Buttkicker with a bridged K2 (2500 W bridge-mono @ 4 ohms)
They always stayed cool to the touch and never bottomed out. I have also used an Audio Control Phase Coupled Activator subharmonic synthesizer on their signal for a couple of years. This was before the release of movie material that contained more low frequency information in the sound track.

I started using the ButtKickers in conjunction with a pair of Velodyne HGS 18 subwoofers. I have also used them paired with duel 200 lb 18" Epik Conquest models.

Currently I am using them with duel Velodyne DD-18 series and duel HGS-18 subwoofers in my 13' 10" W x 21' 7" L x 8' 6" T (2537.84 cf) dedicated home theater room.

What ever subwoofers I use in my system I have never stopped using tactile transducers along with them. They add an extra dimension to the movie experience that subwoofers can never accomplish. I have tested the original Buttkicker with a 10 Hz sine wave and they produced it with authority. I did not have anything lower for testing. My favorite movie material test and demonstration is WOTW pod emerging from underneath the ground scene.

Even though I am using an Integra DHC-9.9 processor I still use my Parasound C2 processor in my system. I utilize it's programmable channels on the ButtKickers signal. I have them lowpassed at 20 Hz. I blend them with the subwoofers output. They hide in the system and extend the subsonics when necessary. If the tactile transducers are driven with to much output it is a distraction. After all it's not a carnival ride. :)

In my opinion high performance tactile transducers are an essential component of a home theaters sound.

I don't have experience with the ButtKicker LFE yet. I have had one for over six months and haven't hooked it up yet to test.
I have been told they are more efficient and just as powerful.

Specifications:

ButtKicker I
Size: 7.13" H x 7.5" W
Weight: 18 lbs

ButtKicker II LFE
Size: 5.375" H x 5.5" W
Weight: 11 lbs

John

My temporary uncovered platform

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/blonzz/DD18VELODYNE048.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/blonzz/WYRED4SOUND013.jpg

Comparison of ButtKicker I/ Buttkicker II LFE

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/blonzz/BUTTKICKERS031.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/blonzz/BUTTKICKERS013.jpg

What did you think of the Clarks? What did you have driving them?

What did you think of the Clarks? What did you have driving them?

I can't remember what I used to drive them. It was a few years ago. They would not be my choice for a HT application. They do not go low enough. I would recommend the ButtKicker over the Clark.

John

Even though I am using an Integra DHC-9.9 processor I still use my Parasound C2 processor in my system. I utilize it's programmable channels on the ButtKickers signal. I have them lowpassed at 20 Hz. I blend them with the subwoofers output. They hide in the system and extend the subsonics when necessary.

I do the exact same thing, except I'm rolling them off even lower. When I got a receiver with Audyssey, that freed up both channels of my BFD for tactile use. One channel is used for the Buttkickers on the floor joists, and the other for the Auras in my furniture. Since my floor acts like a giant infinite baffle sub, I filter it's output to almost nothing above 12hz to keep it from mucking up the sound from my sub (see this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1125968)). The Auras are fine up into the 20s though, as they don't really produce anything audible. But the Auras require a completely different EQ curve... they have a huge peak @ 40hz, as opposed to 9hz for the Buttkickers.

I have been looking into the buttkickers. I guess I should have started this thread (or done some more reading) before I purchased the amp. It doesn't seem to have nearly enough power to handle them. Seems like it should be enough to power a pair of Clark Silvers if my above calculations are correct. They seem to be the best option given the amp. If I am not happy with these I might try the Buttkicker LFE kit down the road and sell this setup.

Another question I have.... If I am going to install these in a couch that is going to be on padded carpet, do I need the isolation feet? Clark synthesis makes three different kinds (http://www.clarksynthesis.com/lib/pdf/product/Isolation%20Feet-%20Cut%20Sheet-%2001.05.09.pdf) and I am not really sure which ones I need. My couch has the small triangular shaped feet that are screwed on. Is the rubber going to rub off on the carpet?

What do you guys use as a low pass filter to keep anything above 20 hz from getting to the transducer. I was looking at FMOD's but the lowest low pass on I found was 50 hz.

By the way, is there anything special about using dedicated subwoofer amp?

I have an extra channel on one of the Audiosource Amp 300's that I am using to drive my system as well as an additional stereo amp that I could use to drive a transducer or two. If I were send a low pass signal to the amp, am I risking damage by driving tactile transducers? As long as I limit the load to the specifications of the amp will I be fine?

If I am going to install these in a couch that is going to be on padded carpet, do I need the isolation feet? Clark synthesis makes three different kinds (http://www.clarksynthesis.com/lib/pdf/product/Isolation%20Feet-%20Cut%20Sheet-%2001.05.09.pdf) and I am not really sure which ones I need. My couch has the small triangular shaped feet that are screwed on. Is the rubber going to rub off on the carpet?
I use them. I ended up making my own. They are black rubber, and it hasn't rubbed off on the carpet (and my carpet is very light in color). If your transducers are buttkickers, they do make some kits where the buttkicker mounts to a plate, and you just set one of the feet of the sofa on the plate, while isolators get mounted to the remaining feet. I have some of these kits that came with some of the buttkickers I bought that I was going to put on ebay. If you're interested, let me know. But I can't vouch for them, as I've never tried them. I used Auras in my furniture, and mounted those inside the furniture.

What do you guys use as a low pass filter to keep anything above 20 hz from getting to the transducer. I was looking at FMOD's but the lowest low pass on I found was 50 hz.
I use my BFD. I agree, 50hz isn't low enough. The other problem with the FMODs is they need to be placed upstream of your amp. If you filter out content above 50hz, you run the risk of the power-on circuit of your amp only being triggered during bassy scenes, and missing part of the initial impulse due to the power on delay.

If I were send a low pass signal to the amp, am I risking damage by driving tactile transducers? As long as I limit the load to the specifications of the amp will I be fine?

As long as you limit the load to the amp's specs, you should be ok. But if you're talking about buttkickers, they do need a lot of power.

Forgive my ignorance. What is a BFD?

+1

Also, whats an FMOD?

+1

Also, whats an FMOD?

An FMOD is a line level passive crossover.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=266-250

And the BFD is the Behringer Feedback Destroyer 1124P. It's intended as a tool in commercial venues to reduce feedback in live performances, but it can also be used as an inexpensive parametric EQ. Many in these forums use them to EQ their sub.

Thanks. That is perfect and not that expensive.

This (http://theater.stevejenkins.com/articles/ultrabass.html) is pretty interesting.

This (http://theater.stevejenkins.com/articles/ultrabass.html) is pretty interesting.

Yes, a sub-harmonic synthesizer is certainly one way to get more infrasonic output. I haven't tried one, but I would expect the results to vary with the content, and also by personal taste. IDEALLY, movie sound mixers would include infrasonic content when things should shake, and for the most part, Iv'e found that to be true. The problem with a sub-harmonic synthesizer, IMO, is that it could be introducing shaking when things really shouldn't be shaking. It's essentially making up for the lack of infrasonic content. I would fear the result to be something like Batman Begins or Pulse... those are two movies that I personally have found that the shakers seem "gimmicky", because those movies have some very low frequency content at times when it just doesn't seem like things should be shaking. In Batman, there is a lot of very low frequency content when Scarecrow speaks. To me, I just don't think the earth should be shaking when someone talks.

But for the most part, I'd say most current movies, or at least most current "action" type movies, have good, relevant infrasonic content. For the most part, my room shakes when it seems like things should shake. I personally would rather restrict the tactile feedback to those moments when infrasonics are encoded in the soundtrack. In fact, I've gone to a lot of trouble to keep them from being activated by higher frequencies. But shakers seem to be subject to a lot of personal preference. Some people don't like them at all.

Good point

One point when doing this... if your feet are on the floor the effect isn't that great. Your body is shaking but the floor isn't. It works best with either reclining seats or with a small platform under the sofa to get the full shake effect.

Or just shake the entire floor. :D

I have dual Buttkickers mounted in my floor joists and it shakes the entire room. These came with the Mounting Accessory Kit (http://www.amazon.com/ButtKicker-BK-CMAK-Couch-Mounting-Accessory/dp/B0006FK42I). You can have both kits if you want to stop by and pick them up sometime.

Or just shake the entire floor. :D

That would be difficult being that the basement is carpet and pad over concrete.

The platform idea might be doable if I could pull it off without looking shoddy. I was just thinking I would start with the couch and see how I like it.

On a side note, do you guys think it would be better to go with a single Clark Platinum instead of the 2 silvers? This would get me down to 5 Hz (according to the specs). Would my amp be too much for it? The manual says 200W RMS at 8ohms, 300W total at 4 ohms. Parts express says that the platinums are 160W RMS, 400W max.

Sorry, I only have experience with the Buttkickers and Auras. You may also want to check in the shaker sticky.

I tried all 3 (Clarks, Auraus, and Buttkickers) and I still have the Buttkickers. Just did a better job to me.

I think I am going to give the clark transducers a try. I don't know if my circuit would handle another 400 watts to power a buttkicker after the 1400 it is dealing with now.

I have a pair of Aura Bass Shakers under the seat of my couch and it does the job. Pair of shakers and 100 watt plate amp from Parts Express for around 170 is a nice way to feel the bass.

Bill

Just to get some opinions on what frequencies to send to the transducers.

I think I am going to go with Clark silver transducers, mainly based on value. They go lower than the Auras. I will be able to get by with my existing amplifiers and I just have to make a reclining loveseat shake.

My main goal is to get more realism and be able to turn the spl down a little. (This will make my wife happy)

My existing sub, a NHT 1259 in a DIY box goes down to about 25 hz.

The Clark transducer says that the tactile frequency range is 15-800 hz and the audible response does not start until 35 hz.

My best guess would be that low passing the signal to the clarks at 30 hz would work well. I would get the most out of them without worrying about them interfering with the sound from my subwoofer. However, it sounds like people low pass them even lower than that to avoid any potential noise. Has anyone had problems with hearing the clarks with frequencies as high as 30 hz.

it sounds like people low pass them even lower than that to avoid any potential noise. Has anyone had problems with hearing the clarks with frequencies as high as 30 hz.

I can't comment specifically on the Clarks, but as far as "hearing" them, a lot of that will depend on what you have them attached to. I am much less concerned about the Auras on my couch than I am the Buttkickers on my floor, because the floor behaves like a real speaker... the back wave is isolated (crawlspace). My floor is essentially an infinite baffle sub, while the couch is an open baffle sub. Having my couch vibrate at reasonably low frequencies doesn't produce much audible output. At such low frequencies, the wave is larger than the baffle, the back wave cancels the front wave (like a woofer operating without any enclosure). So if you're vibrating a free standing object in your listening space at 30hz, you probably won't get much audible output. But if it's the floor, you will.

Just to get some opinions on what frequencies to send to the transducers.

I think I am going to go with Clark silver transducers, mainly based on value. They go lower than the Auras. I will be able to get by with my existing amplifiers and I just have to make a reclining loveseat shake.

My main goal is to get more realism and be able to turn the spl down a little. (This will make my wife happy)

My existing sub, a NHT 1259 in a DIY box goes down to about 25 hz.

The Clark transducer says that the tactile frequency range is 15-800 hz and the audible response does not start until 35 hz.

My best guess would be that low passing the signal to the clarks at 30 hz would work well. I would get the most out of them without worrying about them interfering with the sound from my subwoofer. However, it sounds like people low pass them even lower than that to avoid any potential noise. Has anyone had problems with hearing the clarks with frequencies as high as 30 hz.

I pretty much have the same objective as you. My home theater is by no means elaborate, I have probably spent the most money on rackmount gear than any other piece of equipment, although this will defenitely change when I am finally able to upgrade my plasma. I am not looking for the best solution that money can buy either, I just want to get my feet wet and go from there. I too and going to get a pair of the clark silvers as soon as I have the money saved. As far as interfering with the sound from the the subwoofer, I think it would depend on what you have the tranducers attached to. They are designed to create audible noise when attached to a large surface like a window. I am not sure there will be that much audible noise when attached to the frame of a couch. I also think there are instances when you would want them to compliment the noise from the sub. Last time my brother was down, I was watching him play some call of duty and I was thinking how cool it would be to be able to feel the tank shooting and getting blown up, oreven the vibrations of the tank driving around. In this situation it might be better to have the crossover somewhat higher. I am not sure about any of this though as I have not had any experience with it yet. I'll just have to see how it all works and adjust my expectations and equipment accordingly.

The Clark Silvers are pretty reasonable from parts express right now. They also put an insert of the seismic sofa project in their most recent flyer they sent out. It is more detailed than what is on their website. Here's (http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/partsexpress/salesflyer/#/16) a link to it.

Thank you for the information everyone.