I really want a Pioneer Elite Plasma but the wife is against it and I will likely lose this battle:mad:

Are any of the Plasma makers going to produce a Plasma that comes close to the Pioneer Pro/Elite series

Has anyone heard if anyone will fill the void left by Pioneer

No one knows

No, maybe something in a long time.

I think it's a shame that people waste their time worrying about something that no one knows the answer to,we can all only speculate, but from what I see,the quality with the Pioneer plasmas is outstanding,which is why I bought one,and since they have been building them for years,I doubt anyone who buys one will regret it. Especially at the price they are going for now. Oled will be the next big thing and I can't wait,I'd love a unit being only an inch thin,but that won't be affordable for at least a few years.Can, or will the kuro technology be passed on to some other company and improved upon,maybe,but it will cost you,why not get one now at half price and enjoy? ;)
I hope the wifey changes her mind. Good luck!

Dude,,,,,,,,, just buy the damn thing and do what guys do ........plead ignorant later and/or beg for forgiveness, but remember it has a no return policy once you get it home :)

she'll probably love it anyway. and whats the most it can cost you?? a few nights sleeping on the couch (enjoying the new elite), lol. just buy it

No, No TV will ever beat the Pioneers. In 20 years from now, we will say, I wish I could of got my hands on a 151, I guess I will have to settle for one of those crappy OLED TV's.

I guess they just need to cancel the TV demos at CES next year since Pioneer wont have any new panels there.

To say that no technology 20 years for now will surpass the current Kuros is mind boggling.

Yep, Walmart bought Pioneer's entire knowledge database on plasma displays. :D

Honestly, Pioneers are great but they are done....

And as shyguy states, OLED will possibly be the next upcoming tech, but they have been talking about OLED for 10 years now, and its just starting to surface in the real world for stupid prices... At prices they are talking about now, it may be another 5 years before anything materializes with it...

no one knows just get the tv now or just wait

Of course I was just kidding.

Actually I think Pioneer will hang onto it, and when the economy here in the US gets not just better but WAY better then they can jump back in the display business.

To say that no technology 20 years for now will surpass the current Kuros is mind boggling.

I think the poster was being sarcastic. :D

I think the poster was being sarcastic. :D

With all the Kuro fanatics it's hard to tell. :D

I really want a Pioneer Elite Plasma but the wife is against it and I will likely lose this battle:mad:

Are any of the Plasma makers going to produce a Plasma that comes close to the Pioneer Pro/Elite series

Has anyone heard if anyone will fill the void left by Pioneer

How about a Pioneer Kuro 5020 or 6020? Yes, you may or may not miss some of the advance adjustments of the Elites, but you will still have an excellent display. I picked up a 6020 at a very good price and can't be happier. BTW, I also own a Pioneer Elite 1150HD, which is an excellent display. If you are watching a majority of HD a 5020 or 6020 will be just fine. Just my $.02

I honestly think that Panasonic will match them by 2012. They might just have the same blacks as the 151's and will probably have much better whites.

I don't think that there is any tech that can hold on as king for longer then 2-3 years. Being red cinema already has cameras that shoot in 4K+, Quad HD sets might be 3-5 years away. But who knows. 4 years ago I was at Circuit City wowing at the DLP sets.

I think Panasonic will equal or pass the G9 in almost every area in 2011 maybe even in 2010 already.

Better blacks (going from speced 40K:1 to infinite:1 most mean something), better low-level detail, less dithering noise, almost perfect colors (the EU PZ800 was great) and at least as bright. Sooner or later they have to use a nice gamma-profile for a light-controlled viewing environment that combines detail with image-depth/contrast and come up with some high standard video-processing. Together with less power-consumtion, this should be enough to pass the Kuro, do it Panny! :)

Lets just hope that they will think "right" when designing their top consumer devices but if that fails, the Pro devices will do the trick.

Haha, you guys do make me laugh.

I have a UK Pioneer 500M, which is like your 500M but with more features, it is basically the purest monitor with all the best features from the other Elite models added too.


I also have a Panasonic PF11 from Panasonic, don't listen to anyone who tells you the PF11 or VSX100 range are monitor versions of the Vieras, they're not!
The processing is completely different and the PF11 is razor sharp.

I have to be completely honest and say that the Pioneer Kuro is not as good as the Panasonic PF11, the Panasonic is cleaner, sharper and has a much nicer overall image once calibrated.
The Pioneer is great in the fact you can pull it out of the box, pop it into Pure mode and it looks great, where as the Panasonic needs calibrating to get it really singing. But when it does it is seriously good.

My wife, who doesn't have an interest in all my toys, describes the Pioneer as 'Blurry' compared with the PF11, which I think is a bit harsh, but I do sort of agree. The panasonic seems to pull out extra fine detail that the Kuro misses, and because of that there is a 3D effect to the image that is at times breathtaking.

What I will say though is because of the way the PF11 scales, seems like a simple pixel resize, you really do need a processor of some sort in there for SD material, even a REON from an Onkyo amp will make a hell of a difference.


So although many are mourning the death of the Kuro I think it may push some back to the panny commercial screens and they might just have a shock at how good they are.



Oh, and black levels, I have never felt the 500M gives anything more than I get from the PF11 either, where as my PZ80 in the other room is way behind, both in black levels and overall detail and image sharpness.

Haha, you guys do make me laugh.

I have a UK Pioneer 500M, which is like your 500M but with more features, it is basically the purest monitor with all the best features from the other Elite models added too.


I also have a Panasonic PF11 from Panasonic, don't listen to anyone who tells you the PF11 or VSX100 range are monitor versions of the Vieras, they're not!
The processing is completely different and the PF11 is razor sharp.

I have to be completely honest and say that the Pioneer Kuro is not as good as the Panasonic PF11, the Panasonic is cleaner, sharper and has a much nicer overall image once calibrated.
The Pioneer is great in the fact you can pull it out of the box, pop it into Pure mode and it looks great, where as the Panasonic needs calibrating to get it really singing. But when it does it is seriously good.

My wife, who doesn't have an interest in all my toys, describes the Pioneer as 'Blurry' compared with the PF11, which I think is a bit harsh, but I do sort of agree. The panasonic seems to pull out extra fine detail that the Kuro misses, and because of that there is a 3D effect to the image that is at times breathtaking.

What I will say though is because of the way the PF11 scales, seems like a simple pixel resize, you really do need a processor of some sort in there for SD material, even a REON from an Onkyo amp will make a hell of a difference.


So although many are mourning the death of the Kuro I think it may push some back to the panny commercial screens and they might just have a shock at how good they are.



Oh, and black levels, I have never felt the 500M gives anything more than I get from the PF11 either, where as my PZ80 in the other room is way behind, both in black levels and overall detail and image sharpness.

Hmm.
Are the UK models different models or something?
Do the UK versions outperform the US versions?
Do they add more features or something?

Because as far as the Panny VSX100 (US version) vs the Kuro 500/600M (Us version) goes, It has already been shown that the Kuros outperforms the Panny. This is not news to anyone.
Not only do they outperform them, but they cost thousands and thousands less that the panny.
Unless they just have to have those extra 5 inches, anyone who has done thier research would be FAR better off buying a 500/600M Kuro (which is basically the same as the Signature Elites minus the ISF modes).

Of course I was just kidding.

Actually I think Pioneer will hang onto it, and when the economy here in the US gets not just better but WAY better then they can jump back in the display business.
The could try and re-invent themselves and use a sales model like Apple, Bose, Sony Style or Bang and Olufsen. The big box retailers and mom and pop retail strategy isn't going to work for them just as it did not the last time.

They could have a line of non Elite plasmas from 37 to 50 inches that they could sell at Costco or make available for private branding for folks like Best Buy etc. But they need their own retail outlet.

Pioneer has some excellent product, but their retail strategy is what probably doomed their AV business.

I agree with the comments that the most recent products announced from Panasonic such as their Premiere Line (I believe that is what it is called) which I recently previewed isn't quite upto mark with an Elite 151. It's expensive too! So it's unfortunate for Pioneer that they had to quit while having the best product - by quite a big margin at that.

Haha, you guys do make me laugh.

I have a UK Pioneer 500M, which is like your 500M but with more features, it is basically the purest monitor with all the best features from the other Elite models added too.


I also have a Panasonic PF11 from Panasonic, don't listen to anyone who tells you the PF11 or VSX100 range are monitor versions of the Vieras, they're not!
The processing is completely different and the PF11 is razor sharp.

I have to be completely honest and say that the Pioneer Kuro is not as good as the Panasonic PF11, the Panasonic is cleaner, sharper and has a much nicer overall image once calibrated.
The Pioneer is great in the fact you can pull it out of the box, pop it into Pure mode and it looks great, where as the Panasonic needs calibrating to get it really singing. But when it does it is seriously good.

My wife, who doesn't have an interest in all my toys, describes the Pioneer as 'Blurry' compared with the PF11, which I think is a bit harsh, but I do sort of agree. The panasonic seems to pull out extra fine detail that the Kuro misses, and because of that there is a 3D effect to the image that is at times breathtaking.

What I will say though is because of the way the PF11 scales, seems like a simple pixel resize, you really do need a processor of some sort in there for SD material, even a REON from an Onkyo amp will make a hell of a difference.


So although many are mourning the death of the Kuro I think it may push some back to the panny commercial screens and they might just have a shock at how good they are.



Oh, and black levels, I have never felt the 500M gives anything more than I get from the PF11 either, where as my PZ80 in the other room is way behind, both in black levels and overall detail and image sharpness.

LOL. Maybe it's the James Bond Edition of the Kuro. I doubt Pioneer would have been crazy enough to release a superior spec for the UK market. Plus I am not aware of Pioneer leaving out features in their US Elites either (which are the same as their Japanese Elites).

So I'll have to take your post with a grain of salt for now :)

Hmm.
Are the UK models different models or something?
Do the UK versions outperform the US versions?
Do they add more features or something?

Because as far as the Panny VSX100 (US version) vs the Kuro 500/600M (Us version) goes, It has already been shown that the Kuros outperforms the Panny. This is not news to anyone.
Not only do they outperform them, but they cost thousands and thousands less that the panny.
Unless they just have to have those extra 5 inches, anyone who has done thier research would be FAR better off buying a 500/600M Kuro (which is basically the same as the Signature Elites minus the ISF modes).

UK models the same as far as I know, on the Panny PF and VSX models, the 500M over here which is what I have is the same as your Signature Elites in that it has ISF modes etc.




How have they been shown to outperform the Kuro??

What on paper? With tests and graphs??

Yeah I agree, grey scale is better on the Kuro, and the processing is also better on the Kuro, absolute black is better on the Kuro.

However, sit down and watch a film and a few of us have prefered the Panasonic, sharper and far more film like with a cleaner image overall due to the way they drive the panels.
A couple of ISF guys here, who use CRT projectors, have said they could live with the Panny but not the Kuro.


Also, the PF11 is the same as a VSX100 but marketed for the custom installer and the AV world in general, it adds ISF settings and a nice bezel, the PF11 is the commercial version for around the same price as the Pioneers.


Take a load of measurments for the JVC 750 projector and it wipes the floor with a Marquee 9500 Ultra........on paper.
But which one do I prefer the image of?? The CRT every time.



I'm not hear to get into an agument, but the Pioneer is not the Holy Grail that every one seems to make out, it is good, very very good, but there are other displays already out there.


(A happy Pioneer 9G owner, who also happens to think his PF11 beats it in many areas) ;)

LOL. Maybe it's the James Bond Edition of the Kuro. I doubt Pioneer would have been crazy enough to release a superior spec for the UK market. Plus I am not aware of Pioneer leaving out features in their US Elites either (which are the same as their Japanese Elites).

So I'll have to take your post with a grain of salt for now :)

What I said was....


The US market gets a cut down version of the 500M, all the ISF tweaks etc. are removed from it, over in Europe we get all the bells and whistles from your "Elite" range in the 500M.
I'm sure it is marketing reasons only that they have disabled features on your 500/600m models and nothing more, they don't want to upset the "Elite" customers.

I couldn't really care about your models, but I was told by someone who calibrates these that he was gutted the 500/600M was crippled for the US market. If that is not the case then I have got it wrong, but he is well know on here and I know he wouldn't have got that wrong.

Haha, you guys do make me laugh.

I have a UK Pioneer 500M, which is like your 500M but with more features, it is basically the purest monitor with all the best features from the other Elite models added too.


I also have a Panasonic PF11 from Panasonic, don't listen to anyone who tells you the PF11 or VSX100 range are monitor versions of the Vieras, they're not!
The processing is completely different and the PF11 is razor sharp.How much did your PF11 cost? Pioneer is not getting out of the PDP business because they don't make a good display; only since they are too expensive versus their competition.

How much did your PF11 cost? Pioneer is not getting out of the PDP business because they don't make a good display; only since they are too expensive versus their competition.


50" PF11 with a dual hdmi input board is £2180

50" 500M (which is like your PRO-101FD from what I can gather) is £2045

Just checked the 60-65" prices...

Pioneer 600M is £3800

Panasonic 65PF11 is £4800

I agree they do seem expenive, especially to the average bod who sees a 50" PZ80 at £879.

Both 1080p 50" plasmas so why pay more for a Panasonic or Pioneer that doesn't even have speakers or a tuner??!


Panasonic are going the other way, they are offering a nice custom install version of their popular PHD and PF ranges in a brushed bezel with full isf control and a mode to bypass all processing when using an external processor and charging 50% more!

The 65" VSX version is £7999 here.

No one knowsHow do you know that no one knows? Just because you don't know, doesn't mean somebody else doesn't know. I bet some people at Pioneer or Panasonic know ;)

Supposedly (source AV Magazine forum), two days ago in Italy there's been a presentation where Panasonic representatives have stated that next year models will have Kuro tech panels. If this is true, the answer is clearly Panasonic.

To the above statement, a moderator on the same Italian forum went as far as stating that there is a chance that next year models will be branded Kuro.

Take all this with grain of salt. http://www.avmagazine.it/forum/showthread.php?p=1841653#post1841653

No, No TV will ever beat the Pioneers. In 20 years from now, we will say, I wish I could of got my hands on a 151, I guess I will have to settle for one of those crappy OLED TV's.

I guess they just need to cancel the TV demos at CES next year since Pioneer wont have any new panels there.

MEMO:

Have you ever heard of SED. Its vastly superior to anything we have today. A year old SED protoype, is generations ahead of the Kuro.

I think Panasonic will equal or pass the G9 in almost every area in 2011 maybe even in 2010 already.

Better blacks (going from speced 40K:1 to infinite:1 most mean something), better low-level detail, less dithering noise, almost perfect colors (the EU PZ800 was great) and at least as bright. Sooner or later they have to use a nice gamma-profile for a light-controlled viewing environment that combines detail with image-depth/contrast and come up with some high standard video-processing. Together with less power-consumtion, this should be enough to pass the Kuro, do it Panny! :)

Lets just hope that they will think "right" when designing their top consumer devices but if that fails, the Pro devices will do the trick.

That remain to be seen if Panasonic surpasses the 9g Pioneer. I just don't know how far Panasonic can take PDP technology. I don't think the future is that bright (no pun intended).

The issue is not cost per se for me...the wife has no idea what I want to spend
We have a 6yr old Hitachi 51in SWXB rear projection TV that fits in our entertainment center...to get a new plasma, I need to fix the entertainment center by having the cut-out put back in(rebuilt so to speak) and then place the Plasma on it..which makes it higher up physically the Hitachi

It will sit at 46in off the ground on its base

She feels there is nothing wrong with what we have nad is afraid it will be too high and will "bother" our necks

I am not trying to wait or hope for better...just wanted an idea if Pioneer was selling tech or whether Panny or someone else had announced something new

BTW I just bought a Pioneer Elite receiver VSX-01..so I need a Pioneer Elite Plasma to match, right??

Thanks for all the input

MEMO:

Have you ever heard of SED. Its vastly superior to anything we have today. A year old SED protoype, is generations ahead of the Kuro.

Still deluded I see. Why not buy something that actually has a chance of making it to market?

BTW I just bought a Pioneer Elite receiver VSX-01..so I need a Pioneer Elite Plasma to match, right??

Thanks for all the input


Right!!!:D

How do you know that no one knows? Just because you don't know, doesn't mean somebody else doesn't know. I bet some people at Pioneer or Panasonic know ;)

How would you know they know? Could be a wild assumption on your part or not :)

Dude,,,,,,,,, just buy the damn thing and do what guys do ........plead ignorant later and/or beg for forgiveness, but remember it has a no return policy once you get it home :)

she'll probably love it anyway. and whats the most it can cost you?? a few nights sleeping on the couch (enjoying the new elite), lol. just buy it

I thought of this..she will be gone for springbreak with my son to the in-laws

But she stated if I do anything with it.. I will have "90days" when she returns :eek:

I thought of this..she will be gone for springbreak with my son to the in-laws

But she stated if I do anything with it.. I will have "90days" when she returns :eek:

In that case, you have a perfect opening. Get the Pioneer, set it up just right, and then don't say a word when she comes home. See how long she takes to realize you've bought a new TV, and exclaim what a great deal you got, etc. and you had to act quickly or loose out. Which happens to be true if you're getting an Elite as supply is dwindling fast. As for the "neck" problem, just don't mount it too high. Should be about eye level when sitting on the sofa.

PS: The matching Pio Elite AVR for the ideal HT setup is also a good point to help bolster your "snooze or loose" arguement. Next will be the matching Pio Elite Blu-Ray Player!

In that case, you have a perfect opening. Get the Pioneer, set it up just right, and then don't say a word when she comes home. See how long she takes to realize you've bought a new TV, and exclaim what a great deal you got, etc. and you had to act quickly or loose out. Which happens to be true if you're getting an Elite as supply is dwindling fast.
Unfortunately, the work on the entertainment center would not be finished

As for the "neck" problem, just don't mount it too high. Should be about eye level when sitting on the sofa.


This is a big issue with her....The TV will sit 46in off the ground on the entertainment center ..meaning the TV will be at at an upward angle ...just not sure how bad

We have no way because of "picture" were I can place a TV this large

Unfortunately, the work on the entertainment center would not be finished



This is a big issue with her....The TV will sit 46in off the ground on the entertainment center ..meaning the TV will be at at an upward angle ...just not sure how bad

We have no way because of "picture" were I can place a TV this large

Sounds like you've outgrown this "entertainment" center. Those large pieces were meant more for matching up w/large RPTV's. Flat panel TV's are a different animal, and will look best w/a credenza setup, whether you wall mount or using it to set the display on top. If wall mounting, my favorite is the "articulating arm" mount, which will allow for great flexibility.

Yeah I agree, grey scale is better on the Kuro, and the processing is also better on the Kuro, absolute black is better on the Kuro.

The color is also better on the Kuro. The Panasonic has inaccurate primary colors.
When the Kuro has better color, processing, greyscale, and better blacks and contrast, heck man, what else is there?


A couple of ISF guys here, who use CRT projectors, have said they could live with the Panny but not the Kuro.

Thats strange to hear ISF guys go against everything that ISF considers important in a display. I wouldn't let them calibrate your TV's if I were you.;)


I'm not hear to get into an agument, but the Pioneer is not the Holy Grail that every one seems to make out, it is good, very very good, but there are other displays already out there.

The panasonic is the closest thing to the Kuros right now and are great displays. But they are not superior or even equal to a 9G kuro.
and by the way, The pioneers are considered the holy grail of flat-panels right now. They are the current display to reference others by.

Sounds like you've outgrown this "entertainment" center. Those large pieces were meant more for matching up w/large RPTV's. Flat panel TV's are a different animal, and will look best w/a credenza setup, whether you wall mount or using it to set the display on top. If wall mounting, my favorite is the "articulating arm" mount, which will allow for great flexibility.

Cant get rid of this ..built on the wall by the builder(... it has to go on top of the entertainment center, this is not an add-on unit)..I had a portion cut-out to place the CRT

No other place for the TV:(

Cant get rid of this ..built on the wall by the builder(... it has to go on top of the entertainment center, this is not an add-on unit)..I had a portion cut-out to place the CRT

No other place for the TV:(

OK, scrap Plan A Credenza. If you've got dry wall behind the TV, then you could mount the articulating arm and be able to tilt it, pull it out, etc. This would fix that height problem. Someone on here got a Chief articulating mount that he says is on Ebay for $100 (normally $600), and you can buy the mounting plate for the Pioneer 151 for $50.

The color is also better on the Kuro. The Panasonic has inaccurate primary colors.
When the Kuro has better color, processing, greyscale, and better blacks and contrast, heck man, what else is there?


Thats strange to hear ISF guys go against everything that ISF considers important in a display. I wouldn't let them calibrate your TV's if I were you.;)


The panasonic is the closest thing to the Kuros right now and are great displays. But they are not superior or even equal to a 9G kuro.
and by the way, The pioneers are considered the holy grail of flat-panels right now. They are the current display to reference others by.


I have both and can give and I agree, when you do all that better than it should be the obvious choice, but there is more to an image that that.

Take a JVC 750 DiLA projector which is calibrated and virtually perfect and compare it with a CRT, which on paper is lacking in many areas in comparison, why does the CRT look better??


I think the main thing between the two sets is how much sharper these new commercial panels are, it really does add a dimension that seems lacking on the Kuro.

If I sit and watch the PF11 for a couple of nights then the Kuro, initially the Kuro looks soft and lacking in 3D snap, but within a night you are used to it and it looks great. Same going the other way.

If I were recommending a screen to someone who is not going to get it calibrated I would recommend the Kuro, but for those who use a processor and like to get it set up properly the new Panny commercial screens are superb.

OK, scrap Plan A Credenza. If you've got dry wall behind the TV, then you could mount the articulating arm and be able to tilt it, pull it out, etc. This would fix that height problem. Someone on here got a Chief articulating mount that he says is on Ebay for $100 (normally $600), and you can buy the mounting plate for the Pioneer 151 for $50.

very interresting idea with the articulating arm but the issue is the dry wall part is on either side of the TV...it slides in between as an "almost perfect" fit

Keeps me another option but given the length of the 60in TV, it has to be above the unit

the 50in would fit without speakers in the Cut-out on a stand but who wants smaller, right

Why does everyone seem to be convinced that the NeoPDPeco (due out next year) is not going to pick up where Pio left off. Panny was planning to incorporate KURO tech in these panels (at least according to their own presentations) ostensibly through an agreement with Pioneer. As Pio was planning on using the NeoPDP panels in their 10g sets, the technology is obviously compatible. I fail to see how Pio ditching their panel division leads to an all-bets-are-off situation. If Panny's business plan was to plug the KURO panel drive and processing software into the NeoPDP panels (as their own trade show presentations have indicated) why on earth would Pio shuttering their TV production affect this? Is Pioneer selling their plasma tech? According to what Panny has been presenting, they already have.

http://s11b.directupload.net/images/090227/xkx7oij6.jpg

Will this technology be presented as elegantly as Pio did? Probably not. But I expect we will see it in the high end 13g Pannys next year and in the mid-level offerings in 14g.

I have both and can give and I agree, when you do all that better than it should be the obvious choice, but there is more to an image that that.

Take a JVC 750 DiLA projector which is calibrated and virtually perfect and compare it with a CRT, which on paper is lacking in many areas in comparison, why does the CRT look better??


I think the main thing between the two sets is how much sharper these new commercial panels are, it really does add a dimension that seems lacking on the Kuro.

If I sit and watch the PF11 for a couple of nights then the Kuro, initially the Kuro looks soft and lacking in 3D snap, but within a night you are used to it and it looks great. Same going the other way.

If I were recommending a screen to someone who is not going to get it calibrated I would recommend the Kuro, but for those who use a processor and like to get it set up properly the new Panny commercial screens are superb.

Comparing a projector vs a CRT is much much different than comparing a plasma with a plasma.

and being that they are both plasmas, and one does pretty much everything better than the other, its pretty simple.

So what does the panny do better?
Its not contrast,blacks,motion,color,or shadow detail. we know that.
they are both the same resolution so how can the panny be "sharper"?
especially when the kuro has the better contrast.
Seems to me the Kuro would be the sharper looking and more "3-D" looking.

I think what you are talking about is preference or perhaps edge enhansement.
Maybe the panny has stronger edge enhansement? who knows.
But IMO thats not a good thing.

Yeah, I'm not quite understanding the sharpness thing. You're comparing 2 50" 1080p panels that are both capable of 1:1 pixel mapping.

Given an identical 1080 source, one should not appear any sharper than the other unless one is introducing more edge enhancement than the other. Is the Pioneer set to Dot by Dot for 1080 and Full for everything else?

Why does everyone seem to be convinced that the NeoPDPeco (due out next year) is not going to pick up where Pio left off. Panny was planning to incorporate KURO tech in these panels (at least according to their own presentations) ostensibly through an agreement with Pioneer. As Pio was planning on using the NeoPDP panels in their 10g sets, the technology is obviously compatible. I fail to see how Pio ditching their panel division leads to an all-bets-are-off situation. If Panny's business plan was to plug the KURO panel drive and processing software into the NeoPDP panels (as their own trade show presentations have indicated) why on earth would Pio shuttering their TV production affect this? Is Pioneer selling their plasma tech? According to what Panny has been presenting, they already have.

http://s11b.directupload.net/images/090227/xkx7oij6.jpg

Will this technology be presented as elegantly as Pio did? Probably not. But I expect we will see it in the high end 13g Pannys next year and in the mid-level offerings in 14g.

Because D-Nice said Panny won't match the Kuro. You are also confused about Pioneer selling their technology to Panasonic

very interresting idea with the articulating arm but the issue is the dry wall part is on either side of the TV...it slides in between as an "almost perfect" fit

Keeps me another option but given the length of the 60in TV, it has to be above the unit

the 50in would fit without speakers in the Cut-out on a stand but who wants smaller, right

That's right, who the heck wants to go smaller. Stay on that track! Another advantage of the articulating arm mount is that it allows you to get to the back of the display with ease. If it were me, I'd scour the display mounting threads on AVS and ask some of the professional installers & well-knowledged DIY's how you may proceed and if it is in fact possible. You should post some pics too.

Yeah, I'm not quite understanding the sharpness thing. You're comparing 2 50" 1080p panels that are both capable of 1:1 pixel mapping.

Given an identical 1080 source, one should not appear any sharper than the other unless one is introducing more edge enhancement than the other. Is the Pioneer set to Dot by Dot for 1080 and Full for everything else?

I completely understand about the Sharpness. You guys should visit http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1099702 . Check out the comparison pics. All comes down to sharpness.

I completely understand about the Sharpness. You guys should visit http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1099702 . Check out the comparison pics. All comes down to sharpness.

I'm not sure how the issue being discussed there applies to this situation.

The two plasmas being compared here are of identical size and resolution and should not provide a difference in perceived sharpness unless one is applying more edge enhancement than the other, or only one is set for 1:1.

Because D-Nice said Panny won't match the Kuro.

I've seen D-Nice make that comment about the 12g but not any future tech. Although, I haven't read ALL of his posts I'm sure.

You are also confused about Pioneer selling their technology to Panasonic

Enlighten me, please.

I've seen D-Nice make that comment about the 12g but not any future tech. Although, I haven't read ALL of his posts I'm sure.



Enlighten me, please.

There is no agreement for Panasonic to license Kuro technology or to produce it.

There is no agreement for Panasonic to license Kuro technology or to produce it.

The business alliance formed by the two companies and announced ~10 months ago primarily covered R&D as well as panel production and supply lines according to the press releases at the time. The "company line" from each regarding this alliance was focused on the integration of KURO and NeoPDP technologies. Pio was to be the first to market the fruits of this alliance, but we all know that rest of that story. So does one partner's exit from the business mean that any tech transfer is now rescinded? I've been in this situation business-wise before. If you have a marketable technology you are going to either "milk it or ride it". Since Pio has gotten off the carousel, and is in pretty rough financial condition to boot, they are probably ready to milk the KURO cow. Honestly, I think the deal is probably Panny's to refuse.

Comparing a projector vs a CRT is much much different than comparing a plasma with a plasma.

No it's not. Both display devices, but at the end of the day give the same result, an image on a screen.
So although the JVC digital beats the CRT in every area on paper why does the CRT give the more pleasing image??

It is purely to show, as good as results are when measuring, they are not the be all and end all.



and being that they are both plasmas, and one does pretty much everything better than the other, its pretty simple.

So what does the panny do better?
Its not contrast,blacks,motion,color,or shadow detail. we know that.
they are both the same resolution so how can the panny be "sharper"?
especially when the kuro has the better contrast.
Seems to me the Kuro would be the sharper looking and more "3-D" looking.

Now the Panasonic does a very simple pixel resize when scaling its images, stand next to the screen and you can see this, unlike the Pioneer and for that matter the Consumer Panasonic displays, which seem to have all sorts of clever interpolation techniques going on to help smooth out the image.
This means that it has an incredible sharpness that I have not seen before on a panel, the down side is if you get too close you can see each pixel and it looks bizarre.
Now, even in the 1:1 mode you can see see each individual pixel clear as day on the PF11, and on the Pioneer in dot-to-dot mode you can't, there is still processing going on.

When in their 1:1 modes the differences are still there but not by much.

I would say contrast is about the same, get the Pioneer to match the panasonic for light output and there is too much noise for me. (PWM)
Black level while watching is no different and the low ranges, I am talking 0-5ire seem cleaner, less dithering on the panasonic.


Colour the Pioneer has it beat, straight out the box looks great and after tweaking it is perfect.





I think what you are talking about is preference or perhaps edge enhansement.
Maybe the panny has stronger edge enhansement? who knows.
But IMO thats not a good thing.


Yeah you're right, what we are talking about is preference.

For good material I prefer the Panasonic, for poorer material I prefer the Pioneer, the way it scales and softens slightly really helps.
The Panasonic reminds me of when I put a Crystalio II in first with SDI satellite, I never knew what all the fuss about Mosquito noise was until then, and once you had removed the softening from the sat box and were feeding it a pure signal it was like the whole image was alive. Same thing here, luckily there is a pretty good Mosquito noise reduction built in if you don't have a processor that can do it better.

Could be edge enhancment in there as well, if there is it is very, very good.
I have to get to +7 on the sharpness to start to notice it effecting patterns and 0 is meant to be off, on the older models +2 would introduce horribble noise.




I have sold my PF11 so I would love to say the Pioneer is leages ahead of it and it was a good move, but it wasn't, it certainly isn't a bad move either, but to say we will never have a display that matches the Kuro is just plain sad, you got to be a real fanboy to come out with that crap!! :D
Especially when there is already something out there that in some areas beats it.

I got hate PM's from a few people on here regarding my comments on the 8G kuro when it came out, how dare I say there was excessive pixel noise, how dare I say the bottom end was crushing blacks, especially when a lot of people make their living from selling these displays, but I did get a few apologies from certain members after they had played with them and saw what I was talking about, so forgive me if I take some of the coments 'with a pich of salt' as I'm not sure most who make the comments haven't even got a Kuro let alone got the screen we are comparing it to, or even seen it for that matter.



For god sake we are talking about displays, toys, entertainment, just pointing out if you haven't seen one of the PF or VSX monitors you would do well to have a look.

Remember the LCD guys won't have it that plasma is better, they all think we're nuts! ;)

50" PF11 with a dual hdmi input board is £2180

50" 500M (which is like your PRO-101FD from what I can gather) is £2045Did you mean the PRO-111FD? You're saying a $3200 monitor outperforms a sub $3000 TV? This seems plausible because hopefully you're paying more for the video processor included with this monitor versus the extra features included with a TV.

Maybe things are different across the pond but over here, we fat, lazy Americans prefer the "cheap" products being made south of our border, which is why Pioneer is withdrawing from the PDP display business.

MEMO:

Have you ever heard of SED. Its vastly superior to anything we have today. A year old SED protoype, is generations ahead of the Kuro.Auditor, why do you continue to beat this dead horse?

Did you mean the PRO-111FD? You're saying a $3200 monitor outperforms a sub $3000 TV? This seems plausible because hopefully you're paying more for the video processor included with this monitor versus the extra features included with a TV.

Maybe things are different across the pond but over here, we fat, lazy Americans prefer the "cheap" products being made south of our border, which is why Pioneer is withdrawing from the PDP display business.


I was told our 500M is like your PRO-101FD, you then get a 500M as well with ISF missing.

We don't have the Elite range in Europe.

We have the 5090 the basic TV and all in one, but with ISF and all the bits. ]

500A which is a panel and a external media box.

500M which is a panel the same as the 500M you have but with the extras control and set up wise from the PRO-101FD.

Unfortunately, the work on the entertainment center would not be finished



This is a big issue with her....The TV will sit 46in off the ground on the entertainment center ..meaning the TV will be at at an upward angle ...just not sure how bad

We have no way because of "picture" were I can place a TV this large

Tilting mount. Problem solved.

I don't think I would want my plasma to be any lower than 46" off the ground.

I like to sit with my head resting on my sofa, which puts my natural viewing angle at about that level anyway.

I have my other screen on a chest which is 24" tall and for that I have to look down slightly, and I hate it after being used to the raised screen in the main room.

I don't think I would want my plasma to be any lower than 46" off the ground.

I like to sit with my head resting on my sofa, which puts my natural viewing angle at about that level anyway.

I have my other screen on a chest which is 24" tall and for that I have to look down slightly, and I hate it after being used to the raised screen in the main room.

Thanks I posted a pic in this thread regarding my entertainment center
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1131231

anymore thought would be great

This topic still makes no real world sense. Where in the real world do any companies line up to buy a piece of technology that was a marketplace nionstarter?

I'm sure Pioneer would love to sell it but who is lining up to buy it?

Very true, and you have to remember that Panasonic do feel that their product is at least equal, whether the end user does or not.

Very true, and you have to remember that Panasonic do feel that their product is at least equal, whether the end user does or not.

Precisely. I'm sure Panasonic Samsung, and even LG believe their scientific and technical expertise allow them to produce technologies that are superior.

Precisely. I'm sure Panasonic Samsung, and even LG believe their scientific and technical expertise allow them to produce technologies that are superior.

Couldn't agree more, they all have their own R&D departments.

Couldn't agree more, they all have their own R&D departments.Yes and they all copy off each other :)

You guys make it sound like IP for sale never happens? My company sold off IP a few years back for 8 figures. It all depends on the value of the IP. If it will save years of effort to find a solution that doesn't infringe on the prior art then companies will pay millions for it.

This topic still makes no real world sense. Where in the real world do any companies line up to buy a piece of technologyWhat do companies like Cisco & Microsoft do with organizations who come out with a better technology or serve markets they want to enter... they buy them out. This happens all the time.

Some companies (Samsung) rather copy and get sued instead of developing their own tech.

Supposedly (source AV Magazine forum), two days ago in Italy there's been a presentation where Panasonic representatives have stated that next year models will have Kuro tech panels. If this is true, the answer is clearly Panasonic.

To the above statement, a moderator on the same Italian forum went as far as stating that there is a chance that next year models will be branded Kuro.

Take all this with grain of salt. http://www.avmagazine.it/forum/showthread.php?p=1841653#post1841653

If Panasonic can do that in addition to using a better AR filter (one that actually keeps blacks looking black) and move to a single glass with front bonded filter, then I'd be really interested. And use a simple bezel, instead of the garish monstrosities released this year.

Couldn't agree more, they all have their own R&D departments.

It's more difficult to fold new technology into and existing product line and development cycle. This stuff isn't modular and would require a full redesign along with quality assurance and testing, then documentation and support. That doesn't even consider the political battles and technology camps supporting both technologies. You just can't shove Kuro technology into the mix without serious issues.

If Panasonic can do that in addition to using a better AR filter (one that actually keeps blacks looking black) and move to a single glass with front bonded filter, then I'd be really interested. And use a simple bezel, instead of the garish monstrosities released this year.They may even be as good as an Elite Kuro PDP. :)

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzequg9f/pro-151fd.JPG

Jeff Samuels - Panasonic

Asked if Panasonic is going to acquire Pioneer's Kuro technology, and thus bolster the plasma expertise it already possesses, Samuels says, "Everybody asks that. We don't know."

"....We don't know."Hmmm, since he didn't say yes or no, one could read between the lines and interpret this as "we're considering making an offer" or "we're in negotiations" or "we're trying to come up with the big money to aquire Pioneer's Kuro technology". ;)

Hmmm, since he didn't say yes or no, one could read between the lines and interpret this as "we're considering making an offer" or "we're in negotiations" or "we're trying to come up with the big money to aquire Pioneer's Kuro technology". ;)

...or it might mean that Pioneer has not offered to sell their prorietary patents & video tech. Which could also mean that Pioneer is contemplating getting back into the display market, although Pioneer has not really left as they are still mfg. & shipping displays in Japan.

It's more difficult to fold new technology into and existing product line and development cycle. This stuff isn't modular and would require a full redesign along with quality assurance and testing, then documentation and support. That doesn't even consider the political battles and technology camps supporting both technologies. You just can't shove Kuro technology into the mix without serious issues.

I read three news articles (two Japanese and one Chinese) regarding the NeoPDPeco from last year which indicated that this was exactly the intent of the development partnership: a standardized PDP hardware platform which included panels and basic driver circuitry to be shared between Panasonic, Pioneer and Hitachi and would allow the partners to retain their proprietary processing and market their products independently. The idea was that through standardization of the basic hardware, it would allow for reduced production costs for each partner, rapid integration of new technologies from the cooperative R&D efforts, and help expand the PDP market worldwide.

daj

I read three news articles (two Japanese and one Chinese) regarding the NeoPDPeco from last year which indicated that this was exactly the intent of the development partnership: a standardized PDP hardware platform which included panels and basic driver circuitry to be shared between Panasonic, Pioneer and Hitachi and would allow the partners to retain their proprietary processing and market their products independently. The idea was that through standardization of the basic hardware, it would allow for reduced production costs for each partner, rapid integration of new technologies from the cooperative R&D efforts, and help expand the PDP market worldwide.

dajThis economies of scale approach towards sharing some the burden for R&D and manufacturing costs among companies, that compete in the same market, makes a lot of sense and appears to follow a business model similar to what Intel, Microsoft and Dell have used for many years.

I wonder why some limited form of technology sharing between Pioneer and Panasonic did not work out, was it just plain economics or something more "sinister?"

This was posted on avforums this morning and is upsetting a few people on there, specially as the guy posting is from one of the main duppliers of Kuros in the UK, and certainly where most of the forum guys buy their panels from.


Well, we have now compared the VX100 in detail against the Pioneer KRP500.

There is absolutely NO question that the Panasonic gives a far better, cleaner, more detailed image. Using the scene at the beginning of Ch 15 from Casino Royale we could see FAR more detail in the picture - the pillars of the buildings and tables in the square looked more like a photo than a TV image, right the way to the far distance of the image.

By comparison, the Pioneer image looked almost SD and out of focus in comparison.

The other really interesting thing is that the better the source, the more the difference shone through. So using a PS3 as the blu-ray source the difference was easy to see, but using a Denon 2500 the difference more than doubled, showing just how good Denon's transport is if you have a screen capabale of showing it.

However, it is not all good news. The Panasonic has the black levels of last year's Pioneer screens - certainly nowhere near the 9G. It also suffers, like all Panasonic screens, from purple and green fringing along edges.

But overall, I definitely prefer the Panasonic, and pricing apart, would choose it any time for better picture detail and way less noise (not to mention buzzing) over a Pioneer.

However, other of my colleagues would still choose the Pioneer because of black level performance.

Nevertheless, I believe that at long last the world can move on - the VX is a truly awesome screen. It really does bring out the full potential of a high-end blu-ray player in a way that makes a Pioneer look like it is playing an SD disc. And if Panasonic start to adopt some of Pioneer's patents (to which they have access now) there will be no need to mourne the loss of Pioneer's screens for the future.

Tony



Which is what I was saying regarding the sharpness and detail, I am pretty disappointed with the 9G Kuro in this respect, it does look soft in comparison.

Which is what I was saying regarding the sharpness and detail, I am pretty disappointed with the 9G Kuro in this respect, it does look soft in comparison.They could be, but to have something like "bring out the full potential of a high-end blu-ray player in a way that makes a Pioneer look like it is playing an SD disc" is downright ridiculous.

In any case, do I get things correctly with you saying that this VX100 is nothing more than a PF11?

They could be, but to have something like "bring out the full potential of a high-end blu-ray player in a way that makes a Pioneer look like it is playing an SD disc" is downright ridiculous.

In any case, do I get things correctly with you saying that this VX100 is nothing more than a PF11?

I spoke with Panasonic and was told that the VSX is a PF11 but designed for the custom install market rather than the professional market, it has different menus, ISF settings that you can lock down and a much nicer bezel for a home enviroment, but the panel and the processing is the same.
I was initially a little disappointed with the results on poorer SD feeds, it really doesn't hide anything, hence why I called Panasonic to ask if swapping to a VSX was a good idea, this is when they told me the above.
I was a little dubious and made an effort to go and see a VSX100 to have a proper play, the image it throws is identical as far as I can see with the same benefits and traits, seeing one up close you will know how easy it is to tell, it looks very different to any flat panel I have seen before when you are a foot away from the screen, hard to describe but obvious when you see it.

I don't actually think the comment on HD looking like SD is that far off the mark, there have been a couple of times with the Kuro I have had to check to make sure I was actually looking at an HD feed, the Panasonic really is that sharp in comparison.
Having said that I have had the Pioneer sat in the main room for 3 days now on its own and have forgotten what the Panasonic was like, so it is now starting to wow me for the first time.
When I want from the PHD8 to the 8G Kuro it was the same, for the first 2 or 3 weeks I wasn't impressed, then after that I thought it was amazing, then you get a really good transfer and you think "How could anything be better than this??!!"
It was only when I was selling the PHD8 and I pulled it back out to test and remove a board that I saw them side by side again and realised that I preferred the PHD8 over the 508, again alot less noise and sharper, so I sold the Kuro instead and bought a PF11.

I was told the Pioneer 500M was far less noisy and much sharper, I am yet to believe though! :D

I will give it a few weeks or a couple of months and then decide what to do, but a 58" PF11 with an EDGE is appealing more and more at the moment.

I should just add, I have 42" Viera in the bedroom, it is only a PX80 as it is just for watching satellite in there and the occasional PS3 session, and coming from that screen to watching the Kuro the Kuro looks sharp.

They may even be as good as an Elite Kuro PDP. :)

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzequg9f/pro-151fd.JPG

Simply beautiful

I spoke with Panasonic and was told that the VSX is a PF11 but designed for the custom install market rather than the professional market, it has different menus, ISF settings that you can lock down and a much nicer bezel for a home enviroment, but the panel and the processing is the same.


Giz, there are also more differences, the PF11's have 4,096 steps of gradiation levels (or 5,210 but this could be a misprint as both are mentioned on the Ps website in the very same spec details) but the new VX100 line have a much higher 7,160 steps.

Does the White House have an Pioneer Elite Kuros?

Should they buy one now before they're gone?

Giz, there are also more differences, the PF11's have 4,096 steps of gradiation levels (or 5,210 but this could be a misprint as both are mentioned on the Ps website in the very same spec details) but the new VX100 line have a much higher 7,160 steps.

Interesting, if I don't stay with the Kuro I will try and see both side by side.

the PF11's have 4,096 steps of gradiation levels (or 5,210 but this could be a misprint as both are mentioned on the Ps website in the very same spec details) but the new VX100 line have a much higher 7,160 steps.Does the White House have an Pioneer Elite Kuros?

Should they buy one now before they're gone?I do not know, but is the PF11/VX100s made in Mexico? How much do they cost?