Hi,

I've got an issue with Front Row. I have an iTunes library hosted on an 8 core Mac Pro 2.8ghz. We have one G4 Mac mini in out bedroom, and one intel mac mini in our front room, both running Front Row. Both machines are connected to the Mac Pro via 100 base ethernet - (not 1000 as we're running it through a 1st generation Airport Extreme). If I share the video folder of my Mac Pro from either mini, after an initial buffering, the videos play fine in Quicktime player. The same happens if I add aliases of the video folder on my Mac Pro in to my movies folder on either Mini and view the videos in Front Row.

So far so good.

However, simply adding aliases means you miss out on a few nice things, like keeping track of which episodes have been viewed, summary data etc. So instead I add select the Mac Pro as a remote source in Front Row and I can navigate all the videos correctly. But, if I select a video, after an initial buffer the video stops to re-buffer every few seconds, rendering it totally unwatchable!

It must be a problem with either iTunes sharing on the Mac Pro, or with Front Row on the Minis. My Macbook, connected wirelessly, has a similar level of stuttering to the two hard wired minis, which simply doesn't make sense!

if I add aliases of the video folder on my Mac Pro in to my movies folder on either Mini and view the videos in Front Row...So far so good

so, if you do it the way Apple recommends, everything plays perfectly fine. Can you give us an idea what type of videos you're talking about--exactly--the file types, containers, size, etc? How and where did you get these videos--did you rip them yourself, download them, transcode them?

So instead I add select the Mac Pro as a remote source in Front Row and I can navigate all the videos correctly. But, if I select a video, after an initial buffer the video stops to re-buffer every few seconds, rendering it totally unwatchable!

Can you walk me through how you're attempting this--because I've never used "remote source" from within FR. In fact, nothing else on my network even shows up as a remote source from within FR for me--so I'm curious how you're even seeing videos to select.

I never felt the need to explore it as an option since for me, FR works perfectly with SD and HD content streamed from other Macs, external hard drives connected to Macs, even enclosures connected to the Airport Extreme over USB, just by mounting volumes and using aliases. Aliases also work with EyeTV, thanks to the PyeTV plugin, FR will even call up multiple EyeTV archives so you can basically view all EyeTV content, no matter how many tuners or archives you have, all with a few button presses on the Apple remote.

I don't find the lack of episode and metadata too much of a problem, but then I think I've adapted my habits to the "system" rather than forcing the system to bend. For instance, I'm not using iTunes to store or organize any of my video--EyeTV HD content stays that way, ripped dvds stay that way, as full VIDEO_TS with menus intact, and TV shows that I obtain in other ways, i.e. downloaded, are very easy to organize within folders (albeit, as you note, with no way to indicate that you've already watched an episode.)

So, let's start by looking at the content itself, whether you're just referring to content within iTunes, and the "remote source" angle from within FR. Let's try to eliminate each of these as a cause. Also, test with a known good video_ts folder as well--something that's not within iTunes.

Thanks chefklc,

My library is a mixture of different encodings, all compatible with iTunes. I have a fairly large DB of itunes video, which is comprised of stuff bought from iTunes movie store, iplayer video (ripped as a .mov with iplayer grabber at fairly low bitrate, i'm in the UK), stuff ripped with an Apple TV profile with iFlicks, stuff ripped with an "itunes" profile from iflicks and a few things from handbrake at about 800kbs. To be honest, the oddest thing is that I think I was wrong, things aren't quite right (thought miles less bad) even with AFP sharing rather than iTunes sharing, typically there are a few buffering problems with the first 5 mins or so of any video (apart from the low bitrate iPlayer videos). It's a lot less bad than with videos shared with iTunes sharing in Front Row, however, which are all essentially unwatchable.

To initiate a "remote source in FR (2.0) you just go to the sources menu on the level one of the nav, and then it reveals other iTunes instances running on the network. It correctly displays "Mac Pro" as a library, and I can correctly view the entire list of every part of the library. This has been the case since Front row 1.3 (I think).

I don't feel I'm adopting the system to "bend" since this is clearly as it was intended to function, and I would presume, as an Apple TV would function (really putting me off buying an Apple TV, since if they are like this they would be utterly useless since an AFP work around wouldn't even be possible).

Local content works fine, but it's really not what I want to do - i want a single source (frequently backed up) with which i want to service the rest of the house :(

One thing I'm wondering.. the ethernet cables I'm using which run up and down the house (which is fairly eccentric - 4 stories, so long cable) are homemade, could there be an issue with these? Even if that were the case how come I can copy a 600MB file in a minute or 5, but can't view the same file streamed in real time (when it's a 1 hour video, approx 400MB for example).

Very frustrating, and thanks again for your kind insight :)

OK, some of those sound like strange rips, things I'm not familiar with like iFlicks and iPlayer grabber, I don't even know what they are! Since you're in the UK can it be a PAL and timing issue? (I have to admit, I'm not up on UK/EU home theater issues.) It's also possible that you're transcoding lossy into other lossy and losing something along the way--but if I'm understanding you correctly--all this stuff no matter the source--plays just fine within FR when the file is local--right? When you physically move anything over to your mini as a test, FR plays it perfectly?

If that's the case, that would suggest there's no problem with Quicktime, iTunes, Perian or FR and your problem is your network itself, right? How do these files play over the network when you use VLC instead of FR?

And everything is hard-wired through an Airport Extreme?

iFlicks is this:
iflicksappdotcom

...and iPlayer grabber grabs the iPhone BBC streams, which are low bandwidth h.264 streams in a .mov wrapper - they are small files, we're talking approx 80 mb/30 minuter programme - it can stream via a 3g network, so there really is *no* reason for them not being able to stream via iTunes sharing on my hard wired 100 base network. They take about 1 minute to copy from machine to another in finder so I don't understand why it's so slow via iTunes/front row :(

So I'm not really sure if it's a network problem per se. The files all play fine locally, all copy across the network super fast, but when it comes to playing them via the network in Front Row it stalls so much it's un-watchable.

Are there any hidden plist files for iTunes/front row which might throttle bandwidth or manage the stream? I think iTunes does do some of form of proper streaming rather using aliases, which just uses AFP (or SAMBA if talking to PCs) to transmit the video stream. The fact that a film, even using the less bad alias method is fairly stuttery, so something clearly gone awry :( If I use my Macbook via wireless it's about the same, speed wise, so clearly something very odd going on.

One thing I'm wondering.. the ethernet cables I'm using which run up and down the house (which is fairly eccentric - 4 stories, so long cable) are homemade, could there be an issue with these? Even if that were the case how come I can copy a 600MB file in a minute or 5, but can't view the same file streamed in real time (when it's a 1 hour video, approx 400MB for example).


I think it's your cables. I just tried a test of the same size file from my Intel Mini to my PPC G5. Although both machines can do 1000Base-T, my router can only do 100. The cable I used is slightly less than 20M. The files transferred in less than one minute, so 5 minutes shows a problem.

So I'm not really sure if it's a network problem per se

Let's confirm we have this right:

ALL of your content plays back fine in FR if stored locally;

NONE of that content plays back fine in FR if streamed over the network.

OK, here's what I want you to do:

1) Take FR out of the equation, play some of that content back over the network with VLC--what happens?

2) Take FR, iTunes and type of content out of the equation, put a known good ripped dvd VIDEO_TS that resides on one of your other Macs. Mount that volume, open Apple dvd player.app, select that VIDEO_TS, and play it back. What happens?

3) Repeat #2 except with VLC.

4) Then make an alias of that VIDEO_TS folder, drag and drop the alias into the movies folder of the mini (since the volume is still connected from step #2) then open FR and try to play it over the network.

must be a problem with either iTunes sharing on the Mac Pro, or with Front Row on the Minis.

steely, just in case you haven't figured out where I'm going with this, since you started off thinking this is a Front Row or iTunes issue, I'm suggesting you take both Front Row and iTunes completely out of the equation by asking you to use different content and software players. If VLC and Apple dvdplayer.app also have the same difficulty handling content streamed over your wired network, guess what?

It's a network hardware thing, could be that old Extreme, could be the wiring, you won't know until you eliminate/swap that stuff out.

I'm curious that you also said you're Macbook has trouble over wireless as well...what kind of wireless transmission speed are you seeing over the network when you try this? Open Activity Monitor and check.

I tried using VLC on the mini and it managed to stream content from the Mac Pro flawlessly, so I didn't think it could be a wiring issue.

Remember also, the iPlayer rips I'm playing were originally small enough to be streamed via a 3G phone network (O2 in the UK) so I really can't see how I wouldn't have noticed other networking issues with that kind of poor performance.

As a last ditch thought I disabled the wired network and enabled wireless on the Mini - bizarrely this actually worked - it now streams properly (well, thus far) using the Sources menu (and remains fine for the AFP method, too).

Copying files using wireless is now slower than before (as you'd expect), but actually playing videos now in FR works (so far). I really don't understand it! :(

Thanks anyway guys, not sure what else I can do, except put up with running it wirelessly, and take the performance hit (even though it makes no sense).

And now it's started stuttering appallingly again, just like when using 100Base Ethernet, particularly using a shared library! AFP isn't much better :(

Can anyone recommend any tools for measuring network utilisation, I'm wondering if something is running on my network screwing things up. I'm thinking things like a VNC session which maybe hasn't been shut down properly - I use VNC a lot, but always shut the session down at the end - perhaps a bug is causing this to not be shut down correctly and is there fore still passing through a load of data, saturating network bandwidth (this is a bit of a stab in the dark...).

Open up Activity Monitor, it can tell you a lot about what processes are running, network speeds, etc.

Thanks for the suggestion - more oddness - the throughput of the network appears to be fine - normally a surge to about 600KBS for the initial buffering, after which is reduces to about 130 ish in playback. Sometimes this plays back fine, other times it doesn't. When it doesn't I've tried quitting Front Row.app and then restarting it and it works, which could indicate a problem with Front Row. Again, VLC and Quicktime both play the files totally perfectly every time. And *still* playback in FR is less bad than via iTunes sharing (though both can be bad on occasion, so it might just be me imagining that, possibly).

I'm now wondering if it could be the USB drive i'm pulling the media from on my Mac Pro has a problem? What woudl eb the best way to test. I have my media on a 1TB USB drive, and the machine has two SATA drives, one acting as a time machine volume to the other. I'm wondering now if buying a new 1TB SATA volume for the iTunes library, and then using the USB drive as a backup volume might be a way forward... but surely my USB drive is fast enough (unless it's knackered)!?

Think i've got to the bottom of it - nothing to do with networks as far as I can see - I think my 1TB USB disk is just incredibly slow - copying a 100 MB from an internal SATA to another SATA take a few seconds, while copying from USB to SATA takes about 1 minute! I'm going to try installing a third SATA and running the library from there, using the USB drive as a back up.

Thanks for your help, all :)

Fixed! In the end I found my USB drive was connected via a USB 1.1 cable (which was the one it came with!!) and now all is fine! Hence it was streaming at 12MBS, not 480. Thanks a lot everyone!

I'm now wondering if it could be the USB drive i'm pulling the media from on my Mac Pro has a problem?

right, you did reveal this late in the process. It would have saved us some time if you had mentioned in your first post that all your content was on an external drive: first thing we would have had you do was move some of those files to the Mac itself, and re-test. Glad you solved it.