This is a poll to see the viewing habits of members and how much daytime and nightime viewing is done.

I do most of my viewing at night after work, but I almost always leave the lights on, if I had to add up my viewing....

20% daytime (blackout curtains used with lights on, some natural light still comes in, curtain is used due to the window being directly across from the TV)
50% evening/ after dark viewing with lights left on.
15% night time with lights out.
15% night viewing with backlight used.

I don't know how much of that will change once my new 52a630 arrives. (or if I even like it for that matter)

I work 8-5, 5 a week so that kinda skews my answer. I'll watch things during the day on weekends often, but percentage wise, I would have to say night time.

This is a poll to see the viewing habits of members and how much daytime and nightime viewing is done.

The poll results will be skewed by the fact that there are very few stay-at-home moms on AVS. :D
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The poll results will be skewed by the fact that there are very few stay-at-home moms on AVS. :D
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Just a simple poll to see viewing habits as I expected the majority to be in the 60% and up range for night time viewing. That's why it often confuses me when people say the reason they chose LCD is because of daytime viewing. If it's a minority of viewing time why would that be a major factor?

Just a simple poll to see viewing habits as I expected the majority to be in the 60% and up range for night time viewing. That's why it often confuses me when people say the reason they chose LCD is because of daytime viewing. If it's a minority of viewing time why would that be a major factor?

Even if the majority of AVS respondees (and underline that- again, not many females or casual buyers @ AVS) are in the 60% and up night-viewing class, that's still up to 40% daytime viewing... a very significant chunk of time.

Now add to that, what kind of viewing gets done in the daytime? Maybe stuff like NFL football game and sports in general, which is extra-important to some ppl?

I dunno Max... you can try 'til you're blue in the face into arguing ppl out of liking/wanting LCD sets, but I don't see much chance for success in that endeavor.

As with religion and politics, you can come up with every good argument in the book, but at the end of it, ppl will still shrug and go, "So? I think what I think." At best, you wind up preaching to the converted.

Good luck. :cool:
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Just a simple poll to see viewing habits as I expected the majority to be in the 60% and up range for night time viewing. That's why it often confuses me when people say the reason they chose LCD is because of daytime viewing. If it's a minority of viewing time why would that be a major factor?

I think the only confusion would be if it was 90% or up. For movies you turn the lights off, but for tv shows you might leave them on or just dim them. So even with lots of night time viewing, if it's for primetime shows the light's might not be off.

Besides it's the common mistake to say that lcds have poor black levels by simply comparing them to Pioneer Kuros. Look at PC Magazine's reviews, when you see the measured black levels you'll see that at this point in time lcds are competitive to plasmas.

I don't see a compelling reason to choose plasma over lcd even for in cave like viewing. It's just personal preference.

I dunno Max... you can try 'til you're blue in the face into arguing ppl out of liking/wanting LCD sets, but I don't see much chance for success in that endeavor.

I'm not trying to convert or convince anyone as you completely missed my point. By the way, I have 3 HDTV's in the house and two of them are LCD's and the two newest so that pretty much disputes your point. :cool:

I'm not trying to convert or convince anyone

Sorry, but you do sound like it sometimes.
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I would say that I watch movies mostly in the evening, but I watch the news a great deal during the day as well. By the way, my KURO is plenty bright enough for daytime viewing!

I'm not trying to convert or convince anyone as you completely missed my point. By the way, I have 3 HDTV's in the house and two of them are LCD's and the two newest so that pretty much disputes your point. :cool:
Trying to convince everybody your tiny LCD is a home theater experience is a stretch don't you think?

Maybe you should clarify that a kitchen LCD for daytime viewing.

I don't know how much of that will change once my new 52a630 arrives. (or if I even like it for that matter)

So you got rid of your Kuro?

So you got rid of your Kuro?

I returned it mainly due to the DSE that was VERY noticable on my set (worse than any example given so far in the DSE thread) and partly due to the buzz I could hear. I will admit that I shed a few tears when I returned it because I was in love with the TV otherwise. (and the Kuro's almost complete lack of IR has really spoiled me, My Panasonic plasma doesn't seem as good as it once was with IR)

I'm giving LCD a chance this time around to see how far they have come since I last owned one a few years back.

I'm not trying to convert or convince anyone as you completely missed my point. By the way, I have 3 HDTV's in the house and two of them are LCD's and the two newest so that pretty much disputes your point. :cool:

This sounds like you are trying to advocate LCD's over plasmas. If so what is your third display? If it is not a plasma, and a recent model at hat (apparently it is not from what you say) then it seems to me you really have no convincing grounds for making a completely fair comparison. However, perhaps I misunderstood you position, if so, please excuse my comment here.

Trying to convince everybody your tiny LCD is a home theater experience is a stretch don't you think?

Maybe you should clarify that a kitchen LCD for daytime viewing.

Good oldcband getting back to his old habits before he was sent home packing for awhile. Next time please try adding something to a thread rather than always looking to fuel an argument and please point me to anywhere in this thread where I was talking about "home theater experience" and I have no idea what you're referring to as a "kitchen LCD". :rolleyes:

Sorry, but you do sound like it sometimes.
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One thing I've learned in life is I have little control how others perceive things. :)

This sounds like you are trying to advocate LCD's over plasmas. If so what is your third display? If it is not a plasma, and a recent model at hat (apparently it is not from what you say) then it seems to me you really have no convincing grounds for making a completely fair comparison. However, perhaps I misunderstood you position, if so, please excuse my comment here.

Not at all. As systemshock was trying to allude to is I'm trying to convince others that plasma is the only way to go and thus the reason that I said I have two LCD's in the house along with a plasma. I will readily admit I generally prefer a plasma but I look at a TV as a personal choice and it can be either plasma or LCD and when it comes time for me to choose another TV I will look at all options again. My only thing is I find so many posters on here that advocate their choice for LCD and put down a plasma because of daytime viewing and the poll indicates that daytime viewing seems to be the minimal use.

Bottom line, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything as I hope they make their choice for what they like and not what someone on a forum likes. :)

Not at all. As systemshock was trying to allude to is I'm trying to convince others that plasma is the only way to go and thus the reason that I said I have two LCD's in the house along with a plasma. I will readily admit I generally prefer a plasma but I look at a TV as a personal choice and it can be either plasma or LCD and when it comes time for me to choose another TV I will look at all options again. My only thing is I find so many posters on here that advocate their choice for LCD and put down a plasma because of daytime viewing and the poll indicates that daytime viewing seems to be the minimal use.

Bottom line, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything as I hope they make their choice for what they like and not what someone on a forum likes. :)

I agree with you. Please excuse the misunderstanding; it really seemed to me as if you were arguing the other way! :)

Good oldcband getting back to his old habits before he was sent home packing for awhile.

I'm not trying to start an arguement at all? I was asking for clarification if you mean a "home theater experience" viewing or just anybody with a television anywhere?

A 40" LCD is at best a bedroom TV. Would this mean watching TV in the kitchen at night?

Also I don't understand when you say I was sent home packing? You really need to clarify this one. I don't understand what you are saying at all.

I'm not trying to start an arguement at all? I was asking for clarification if you mean a "home theater experience" viewing or just anybody with a television anywhere?

Right. Maybe a refresher as to what you said should help:

"Trying to convince everybody your tiny LCD is a home theater experience is a stretch don't you think?"

Strange way of asking for a clarification. :D

A 40" LCD is at best a bedroom TV. Would this mean watching TV in the kitchen at night?

Believe what you want, but many people use that size as a main TV and in fact the 40" LCD I have in the family room is used as much if not more than my 50". I didn't realize that it was that difficult of a poll as use your own judgement but I would imagine most people would answer as to what their primary viewing habits are. If you sit in a kitchen all the time and watch TV then I would expect you to answer it according to that viewing habit.

Also I don't understand when you say I was sent home packing? You really need to clarify this one. I don't understand what you are saying at all.

I'm pretty sure you do, but we'll just leave it at that. :rolleyes:

:)

I sit down to watch television extremely rarely, though I do occasionally get sucked in by my lady's Alton Brown and MythBusters watching.

It's all movies and video games downstairs, and all in the evening.

One thing I've learned in life is I have little control how others perceive things. :)

And one thing I've learned is that sometimes you have to take responsibility for the image you project. ;)
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I sit down to watch television extremely rarely, though I do occasionally get sucked in by my lady's Alton Brown and MythBusters watching.

I looooove MythBusters. One of my top five shows, easily. :)
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I looooove MythBusters. One of my top five shows, easily. :)
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Same here, I don't see how anyone couldn't like that show. :D

I voted mostly night time viewing.

And one thing I've learned is that sometimes you have to take responsibility for the image you project. ;)
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All you have to do is go back through my post history and see that I have several times suggested that a person should base their decision on what they prefer not what I or anyone else prefers. Can't make it much simpler than that. :D

PS- I find it funny in the same thread you accuse me of pushing plasma and harrison thought I was pushing LCD. How can that be? Unless I'm neutral. lol

All you have to do is go back through my post history and see that I have several times suggested that a person should base their decision on what they prefer not what I or anyone else prefers. Can't make it much simpler than that. :D

PS- I find it funny in the same thread you accuse me of pushing plasma and harrison thought I was pushing LCD. How can that be? Unless I'm neutral. lol

I bear no responsibility for what Harrison thinks.

I dunno Max... play innocent if you wish. But I'm pretty sure you do have an agenda, even if it's a subtle one.

It doesn't matter in the end, though. It's not like a few AVS posts are gonna swing a lot of ppl one way or the other. But if you do have a bias, and I'm pretty sure you do, the more honest path is to be upfront about it.

Everyone has some sort of bias, the silliness ensues when we pretend that we don't (or argue everything from the basis of that bias). ;)

I'll take an honest, self-aware zealot over a "who me, biased?!?" guy any day. :D
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I bear no responsibility for what Harrison thinks.

I dunno Max... play innocent if you wish. But I'm pretty sure you do have an agenda, even if it's a subtle one.

It doesn't matter in the end, though. It's not like a few AVS posts are gonna swing a lot of ppl one way or the other. But if you do have a bias, and I'm pretty sure you do, the more honest path is to be upfront about it.

Everyone has some sort of bias, the silliness ensues when we pretend that we don't (or argue everything from the basis of that bias). ;)

I'll take an honest, self-aware zealot over a "who me, biased?!?" guy any day. :D
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Don't know what to tell you shockie but you keep barking up the wrong tree. Do I prefer plasma's in general? yes and I have stated as much in this forum. Do I care what anyone else buys? most certainly not as that's a personal decision but if someone asks for an opinion I'll certainly share mine as I kind of figured that's a forum is for isn't it? :)

PS- I have another idea for a poll that I'll probably be posting soon, but I hope you don't think I have some sort of hidden agenda on that one also, but feel free to participate or not.

PS- I have another idea for a poll that I'll probably be posting soon, but I hope you don't think I have some sort of hidden agenda on that one also, but feel free to participate or not.

Look forward to it. ;)
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Night time viewing > 90%


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What exactly is "Biased" anyway??
If someone knows from actually experience which tech is capable of the more accurate, natural, and pleasing picture, and preferrs that TV/Tech because of this reason, Is that biased?

What exactly is "Biased" anyway??
If someone knows from actually experience which tech is capable of the more accurate, natural, and pleasing picture, and preferrs that TV/Tech because of this reason, Is that biased?

Hmm... okay, what if we were to run across an individual who has just as much experience as you, Chad, and yet thinks differently than you do about TVs and display technology? No doubt a significant number of such ppl exist, unless you consider yourself the most experienced A/V guy in the whole wide world. :D

Who then is biased... you for being experienced and thinking one way, or other ppl for being experienced and thinking differently?

Do you start to see the problem? :(

Given that, I'd say 'biased', in the extreme part of the definition, is someone who sees only their own opinion, and automatically assumes that anyone who disagrees must be wrong.

I think we all do it to some extent, but some of us are worse than others.
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What exactly is "Biased" anyway??
If someone knows from actually experience which tech is capable of the more accurate, natural, and pleasing picture, and preferrs that TV/Tech because of this reason, Is that biased?

Its biased when refuse to accept that other display technologies are capable of achieving the same.

Try this link on bias.

http://www.conservative-resources.com/definition-of-bias.html

Hmm... okay, what if we were to run across an individual who has just as much experience as you, Chad, and yet thinks differently than you do about TVs and display technology?
I would ask them to prove thier claim with data instead of constantly trying to back up thier claims with thier personal preference of torch mode and soap opera effect.
This is the AV SCIENCE forum. Not the AV "personal preference" forum.

My idea of biased is someone who is totally one sided and unwilling to look at the data. And thinks that thier is some vast conspiracy and bias that leads to a certain technolgogy spanking the other in pretty much every comparison.

Its biased when refuse to accept that other display technologies are capable of achieving the same.
that all depends if they really are or not.

that all depends if they really are or not.

LOL. In whose opinion? Yours alone?

C'mon Chad, I like plasma, but there's plenty of ppl who do not. Are they all blind and you're the sole possessor of truth and light? :rolleyes:

Sry, but the world does not work that way, except perhaps in one's own mind.

And damn you for making me argue on the same side of Audie, for once. :mad:

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I would ask them to prove thier claim with data instead of constantly trying to back up thier claims with thier personal preference of torch mode and soap opera effect.

This is the AV SCIENCE forum. Not the AV "personal preference" forum.

So, everyone who disagrees with you is in love with torch mode and SOE? I really doubt it.

Far as data goes, data is like statistics... it can be used to 'prove' or 'disprove' lots of things, depending on how one cares to use it. But often times, data measures... what's easy to measure, and that's mostly it. It can be useful, but it isn't always the 'hand of God'.

I remember when CDs first arrived on the scene back in the '80s... they measured WAY better than vinyl/audiophile turntables. I thought, "Wow, CD MUST be the way to go!". I wanted to rush right out and buy one.

Then my audiophile friend made me listen to his Linn Sondek turntable vs a CD player. The Sondek absolutely massacred the CD player.

I was like, "B-but, the measurements...", and then I kinda just shut up. There wasn't really any arguing with what I had just heard. It wasn't close. :(

Data has its limits, though I do know engineer types who still think that, 'if it ain't on the spec sheet, it doesn't exist, or doesn't matter'. I think it's just as naive to think that objective measurements are everything as it is to think that it's all subjective. Both have a place.


My idea of biased is someone who is totally one sided and unwilling to look at the data. And thinks that thier is some vast conspiracy and bias that leads to a certain technolgogy spanking the other in pretty much every comparison.

Don't know who you're referring to, or even what comparisons you're talking about. But if you wish to flesh that answer out some...

Sigh. I get the feeling that I'm walking into the middle of some tedious, long-running AVS forum LCD vs plasma jihad. But, does it even matter? Even if there were a way to PROVE one technology was inherently better, beyond any and all shadow of a doubt, would the rest of the world beyond AVS take note? Or even care?

I doubt it.
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So, everyone who disagrees with you is in love with torch mode and SOE? I really doubt it.

Far as data goes, data is like statistics... it can be used to 'prove' or 'disprove' lots of things, depending on how one cares to use it. But often times, data measures... what's easy to measure, and that's mostly it. It can be useful, but it isn't always the 'hand of God'.

I remember when CDs first arrived on the scene back in the '80s... they measured WAY better than vinyl/audiophile turntables. I thought, "Wow, CD MUST be the way to go!". I wanted to rush right out and buy one.

Then my audiophile friend made me listen to his Linn Sondek turntable vs a CD player. The Sondek absolutely massacred the CD player.

I was like, "B-but, the measurements...", and then I kinda just shut up. There wasn't really any arguing with what I had just heard. It wasn't close. :(

Data has its limits, though I do know engineer types who still think that, 'if it ain't on the spec sheet, it doesn't exist, or doesn't matter'. I think it's just as naive to think that objective measurements are everything as it is to think that it's all subjective. Both have a place.




Don't know who you're referring to, or even what comparisons you're talking about. But if you wish to flesh that answer out some...

Sigh. I get the feeling that I'm walking into the middle of some tedious, long-running AVS forum LCD vs plasma jihad. But, does it even matter? Even if there were a way to PROVE one technology was inherently better, beyond any and all shadow of a doubt, would the rest of the world beyond AVS take note? Or even care?

I doubt it.
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Your right. Data means nothing. What matters is personal opinions and preferences. Its not like this is a science forum or anything like that.

Sigh. I get the feeling that I'm walking into the middle of some tedious, long-running AVS forum LCD vs plasma jihad. But, does it even matter? Even if there were a way to PROVE one technology was inherently better, beyond any and all shadow of a doubt, would the rest of the world beyond AVS take note? Or even care?

I doubt it.
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In 2 years there won't be any plasmas and we'll all miss these heated "discussions" :p Certain members will be left with tons of free time and will actually have to.. enjoy their gear!

As for the poll I voted "Mostly Daytime" since I work at night. Doesn't bother me since I can black out my living room but it would be nice to have a little sunshine. Hopefully future display technologies will fix this while still retaining the good qualities PDPs have at night.

I would ask them to prove thier claim with data instead of constantly trying to back up thier claims with thier personal preference of torch mode and soap opera effect.
This is the AV SCIENCE forum. Not the AV "personal preference" forum.

My idea of biased is someone who is totally one sided and unwilling to look at the data. And thinks that thier is some vast conspiracy and bias that leads to a certain technolgogy spanking the other in pretty much every comparison.

Well I recall posting measured black levels from PC magazine reviews that demonstrated that mid-priced lcds and plasmas are actually the same. There was your data, and how did you respond? You just repeated the usual mantra about lcds having poor blacks.

If you ignore evidence plainly stated because it disagrees with what you want reality to be, then you are biased. So as you said this is not "the AV personal preference forum" so get with the program.

In 2 years there won't be any plasmas and we'll all miss these heated "discussions" :p Certain members will be left with tons of free time and will actually have to.. enjoy their gear!

As for the poll I voted "Mostly Daytime" since I work at night. Doesn't bother me since I can black out my living room but it would be nice to have a little sunshine. Hopefully future display technologies will fix this while still retaining the good qualities PDPs have at night.

I use blackout curtains and I wonder if the minority of voters (such as you_ that do majority of tv watching in the day either use curtains for controlled lighting or have their home theater in the basement. I can't imagine many avs posters watching tv in an environment with bright, uncontrolled lighting!

Well I recall posting measured black levels from PC magazine reviews that demonstrated that mid-priced lcds and plasmas are actually the same. There was your data, and how did you respond? You just repeated the usual mantra about lcds having poor blacks.

If you ignore evidence plainly stated because it disagrees with what you want reality to be, then you are biased. So as you said this is not "the AV personal preference forum" so get with the program.

There are certainly some LCD's that outperform some plasmas. Plasma's have low end models just like LCD.
But the question is, which one is capable of the better picture.
today in reality, Plasma is capable of the deepest black while displaying actual content. And thats just one area. I won't even get to motion, screen uniformity, color, off-angle viewing, etc.
This may upset you but its a fact. sorry.
Plasma does not have to use dimming zones in order to render decent blacks.

Please direct me to the LCd that is capable of hitting 0.001fl blacks during mixed contrast scenes (aka content).

Please direct me to the LCd that is capable of hitting 0.001fl blacks during mixed contrast scenes (aka content).

How about you direct me to the plasma that is not made by Pioneer that is capable of hitting 0.001 ftL.

All I have to do is say look up any other plasma and you will find that just like ccfl lcds they have not broken the 10^-3 cd/m^2 barrier (fyi I realize different units but it's only about a factor of 3 difference).

Here http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2342694,00.asp oh how pathetic that plasma has only 0.12 cd/m^2, and both of my cheaper lcds have a black level of 0.04 cd/m^2, that's three times darker.

And here http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2327036,00.asp Panasonic comes up with a disappointing 0.07 cd/m^2.

What you consider "fact" I consider unconfirmed speculation. It seems that I'm in possession of the facts and you have merely your uninformed opinion. Consider yourself educated now.

Edit: Have to clarify they measure black level with ANSI checkerboard patterns and windows so that it's not full on/full off where dynamic contrast can trick you. These black levels are associated with static CR, not dynamic so it's perfectly fair.

Can we get this post back on track and not make this another LCD vs plasma debate. This was just a simple poll to see viewing habits of AVS posters and not meant to fuel another futile argument.

Thanks. :)

Your right. Data means nothing. What matters is personal opinions and preferences. Its not like this is a science forum or anything like that.

That obviously wasn't what I said at all.

But if that's all you got out of what I said, then I feel bad for ya. :(
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I work till about 7:00 pm M-Thursday so the majority of my viewing is night time. The weekends and Friday afternoons are the only time I watch tv during the day assuming I am not off.

I use blackout curtains and I wonder if the minority of voters (such as you_ that do majority of tv watching in the day either use curtains for controlled lighting or have their home theater in the basement. I can't imagine many avs posters watching tv in an environment with bright, uncontrolled lighting!

Personally I use a low tech easy to use solution.. cardboard! Blinds aren't good enough so I just measured up the windows and cut up some old boxes. I'll be moving to a new place a few months and will be investing in some new blackout blinds for there.

I don't think it's unreasonable to not want to blackout your windows during the day, I live in a basement apartment that doesn't get that much light and I STILL black it out, especially on sunny days.

How about you direct me to the plasma that is not made by Pioneer that is capable of hitting 0.001 ftL.

All I have to do is say look up any other plasma and you will find that just like ccfl lcds they have not broken the 10^-3 cd/m^2 barrier (fyi I realize different units but it's only about a factor of 3 difference).

Here http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2342694,00.asp oh how pathetic that plasma has only 0.12 cd/m^2, and both of my cheaper lcds have a black level of 0.04 cd/m^2, that's three times darker.

And here http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2327036,00.asp Panasonic comes up with a disappointing 0.07 cd/m^2.

What you consider "fact" I consider unconfirmed speculation. It seems that I'm in possession of the facts and you have merely your uninformed opinion. Consider yourself educated now.

Edit: Have to clarify they measure black level with ANSI checkerboard patterns and windows so that it's not full on/full off where dynamic contrast can trick you. These black levels are associated with static CR, not dynamic so it's perfectly fair.

Yeah plasma is certainly unappealing without Pioneer. Just in case anyone missed it the new Panasonics are a BIG letdown. Hence the comment about no more PDPs in 2 years unless something big happens.

Personally I use a low tech easy to use solution.. cardboard! Blinds aren't good enough so I just measured up the windows and cut up some old boxes. I'll be moving to a new place a few months and will be investing in some new blackout blinds for there.

I don't think it's unreasonable to not want to blackout your windows during the day, I live in a basement apartment that doesn't get that much light and I STILL black it out, especially on sunny days.

If the neighbors saw you put up the cardboard, they'd think you were a vampire!:D

Chadmak, I do apologize for being overly hostile in my reply. My post would have been sufficient without the attitude.