"The High-Tech Life", which is the company coming to take a look at my 5020, said they offer Pioneer calibrations for half price if they are already coming on a service call.(that is if this panel is kept after visit)

I asked what equipment they use and he said Sencore Generators.
He said they calibrate for a perfect D65K or as close as possible.
He said they also calibrate the high and low RGB's.
I asked, "What about the greyscale?"....he said after the color temp. calibration there is no need.

I told him I'd think about it and get back to him.

So I came right here to ask the experts. Thaks for any and all help in advance!

Greetings

Working on the RGB highs and lows is grayscale.

They need the control cal program to do this ...or the Best Buy remote.

Ask them how they plan to access the grayscale part of the TV.

regards

I will...he mentioned something about the factory Pionner remote, but nothing more.
Thanks Michael!

Greetings

Make sure you can hang around and watch and ask questions too ...

No hocus pocus you have to leave the room junk.

regards

I would be VERY skeptical about their service. Going by what he told you, I have a feeling he doesn't know much about the process.
Do your research and ask LOTS of questions before moving forward. Your money may be better well spent utilizing a calibration professional, not a service tech.

Good luck.

That's exactly why Ihad to politely ask for time to consider like four times.
But Idid consider it, afterall the price would have been only $150.
But I will controlcal it myself first Isuppose and if not happy enough get one of you great guys t ocome by.
Thanks for the help!

Michael...he mentioned nothing of me not being allowed in the room...but there is a reputable cal. company that does ask this of its' customers, which I thought was strange myself.
Doesn't matter though as it sounds like this would be the equivalent of a BestBuy cal.

I encourage the customer to be in the room during the calibration. I know Michael does as well. In fact, I am disappointed if they are not there to participate in the process. In my opinion, educating the customer is a major part of the job!

"The High-Tech Life", which is the company coming to take a look at my 5020, said they offer Pioneer calibrations for half price if they are already coming on a service call.(that is if this panel is kept after visit)

I asked what equipment they use and he said Sencore Generators.
He said they calibrate for a perfect D65K or as close as possible.
He said they also calibrate the high and low RGB's.
I asked, "What about the greyscale?"....he said after the color temp. calibration there is no need.

I told him I'd think about it and get back to him.

So I came right here to ask the experts. Thaks for any and all help in advance!

Well, that's what he's talking about is greyscale, in adjusting for accurate D65. I don't take as skeptical a view as the others, if they're service techs they should obviously know their way around the service menu, and I would put my money on them over some unknown, however just how image-knowledgeable they are is a different matter. Still, if they're doing greyscale to d65, $150 is a pretty good deal IMO, even if you have to go back in after them and say tweak black and white level or something for your playback chain.

Well, that's what he's talking about is greyscale, in adjusting for accurate D65. I don't take as skeptical a view as the others, if they're service techs they should obviously know their way around the service menu, and I would put my money on them over some unknown, however just how image-knowledgeable they are is a different matter. Still, if they're doing greyscale to d65, $150 is a pretty good deal IMO, even if you have to go back in after them and say tweak black and white level or something for your playback chain.

The thing about that specific TV is that you don't just enter the service menu, you need to access it by RS232 to adjust grayscale.

Greetings

OF course if you know what you are getting into anyway ... then the education portion is kinda moot. Take the discount and let them do their thing. Just keep an eye out on the signal generator and the probe they use and so forth.

The actual act of calibration isn't that hard anyway.

And one does not buy a Neon and complain that it is not a Lexus. Education is not a requirement when it comes to calibration. It just makes it more worthwhile for the client ... but then again, some people just don't care about such things.

regards

A more important question is, can they adjust and Save the RGB Highs/Lows for the Movie AV Selection. Even the IR Code and/or FR that some have cannot Save them for Movie. ;)

ControlCAL is the only option to adjust/calibrate in Move and Save. ;)

If they have access to the IR Code to enter the SM or the Service Remote, they could adjust the RGB Highs/Lows for Standard but Movie is the AV Selection you want calibrated.. ;)

So, do you want Movie calibrated by a Professional? If your answer is yes, check the list in my Signature and put the $150 towards someone who can actually do it.... :D

-Turbe

A more important question is, can they adjust and Save the RGB Highs/Lows for the Movie AV Selection


More importantly who can adjust the rgb lows without screwing up the picture?

More importantly who can adjust the rgb lows without screwing up the picture?

Uh, anybody with a good meter that will read down to around .07 fL (or lower, of course), ControlCAL and decent calibration software? Works for me every time. The low/offset control adjusts the 10% step, the gain/high adjustment controls 20%-100% and no more adjustment is needed for 20%-100% as they are all ruler-flat in response so every step goes up and down evenly/equally - and with ControlCAL you are using Movie mode to get the least processing and the best gamma of any available mode. A 5020/6020 calibrated this way is so close to an Elite Kuro, you have to put them side-by-side with identical feeds to detect any differences, and almost all the differences will only be visible in test patterns rather than actual video content. There are SOME small advantages Elites have, but those without an Elite budget can get amazingly close with a good ControlCAL setup of the 5020/6020.

Hmmm...now I'm undecided again.
I suppose I should call and ask him some questions first.
If me doing controlcal properly is almost as good....
I do want to use movie mode, as that is the only mode I ever use.
I thought I had read that even with controlcal that the settings are unable to be used/saved for movie mode....or at least some on the threads said so....is this true??

Hmmm...now I'm undecided again.
I suppose I should call and ask him some questions first.
If me doing controlcal properly is almost as good....
I do want to use movie mode, as that is the only mode I ever use.
I thought I had read that even with controlcal that the settings are unable to be used/saved for movie mode....or at least some on the threads said so....is this true??

I haven't had any trouble saving settings for Movie mode using the "calibrator" version of ControCAL. You do have to save settings to 2 separate memories to make sure any source/mode you select gets the calibrated settings - that may be where the confusion crops up.

By the way, if you are still going to probe the service people about calibration, I would recommend NOT asking them something specific like "Do you use the Pioneer remote to access the service menu?" Because you just gave them the answer to the question... probe with no hints about what the right method is. Also... ask them about their calibration meter... does it stick to the panel or mount on a tripod. Personally, I would NEVER... EVER... stick a suction-cup puck to a Kuro panel because their outer surface is much easier to damage than ANY other plasma - it is quite soft and cleaning should be avoided as much as possible. It's just about IMpossible to stick a suction-cup puck to a Kuro panel without leaving an after-image of the small suction cup pattern on the panel which will force you to clean at least that area of the screen. It is VERY easy to inadvertently remove parts of the outer coating on the Kuro panels with anything stronger than water. And you MUST use a soft, clean microfiber cloth for cleaning or risk leaving a scratch pattern in the surface coating. If they do use a puck with suction cups, I would personally insist that they dangle it over the top of the panel and just let it hang by the cable without sticking it to the panel to avoid leaving any marks. That outer coating on the Kuros is so delicate, I would even worry a bit about pulling pieces of it right off the panel when removing the suction-cup puck. Putting the meter on a tripod that's many feet away from the panel surface is the safest calibration tool to use with Kuro panels.

A 5020/6020 calibrated this way is so close to an Elite Kuro, you have to put them side-by-side with identical feeds to detect any differences, and almost all the differences will only be visible in test patterns rather than actual video content. There are SOME small advantages Elites have, but those without an Elite budget can get amazingly close with a good ControlCAL setup of the 5020/6020.


According to cnet red and green rate poor on the non elites. While the elite rates all colors good without any adjustments. Do you think adjusting those rgb highes with the non elite would make the colors rate good? How much of a difference do all those cms controls make on the elite even without touching them?

According to cnet red and green rate poor on the non elites. While the elite rates all colors good without any adjustments. Do you think adjusting those rgb highes with the non elite would make the colors rate good? How much of a difference do all those cms controls make on the elite even without touching them?

The number of errors I find in Cnet reviews has turned me off from even reading them. It appears that to get through the volume of video displays done that they post, they have MAYBE 1 week to work with any given display... maybe less. I ALWAYS find more tricks and tweaks after a month or 2 with any given display.

You can't use the CMS controls on Elites becuase they ruin the nice linear grayscale.

Grayscale errors are easier to detect than color errors. Color errors become a little more obvious when side-by-side with a panel that doesn't have color errors. The only difference between Elite and non-Elite color measurements is the amount of time spent on Elites during assembly to tune each TV to produce accurate primary and complimentary colors. This is all done with controls that not even professional calibrators have access to. On non-Elite models, somebody decided what numbers to set those controls to and every panel that comes down the line gets the same settings. Nobody spends time on the non-Elites intentionally making the colors more accurate.

A side effect of doing a calibration with ControlCAL is that some or all colors (on non-Elites) are improved. You have to follow the right procedure to achieve that, but it does happen. I've seen cases where only the complimentary colors improved, but I've also seen cases where both the primary and complimentary colors improved, sometimes by so much they they get surprisingly accurate for a display with no controls for the colors.

During assembly, time is money. When you sell a less expensive model, it had better take less time to complete than a more expensive model or your business plan will fail. So you cut cornes on your less expensive models - fact of life, only way to survive. And even that doesn't always work if the economy gets bad enough.

While some have reported that the offset/cut control available for non-Elites in ControlCAL has no effect on grayscale, I have reported in several places that it DOES in-fact work and works quite well. It only adjusts the 10% step, however. 20%-100% are controls by the gain/bias control. This actually works out pretty well since the 10% step typically has larger errors than any other step and needs more "correction" than 20%-100% needs. So I've been able to achieve some pretty spectacular results with non-Elites. Of course if your meter doesn't read the 10% point on a Kuro panel (quite possible as a surprising array of meters give up around 1 fL and 10% can be lower than 1 fL when you set peak white for 30 fL (comfortable for a dark room)), you would never know your cut/offset control was doing anything useful at 10%.

The main advantages the Elites have (besides inputs and PC/Media functionality) are Pure mode (less processing than Movie mode), better assembly line color accuracy, and with ControlCAL, the ISF modes can make the Pure mode brighter than about 42 fL which is the max you can get in Pure mode without ControlCAL so you can have an ISF-Day mode that uses Pure mode but is still bright enough to be watchable with light in the room. I think there may be one other thing I'm forgetting about Elite advantages, but it's not coming to mind right now. (and I'm not thinking of the Elite Optimum mode which adjusts luminance AND color to compensate for room changes - this is still a gimmick to me, though it's an interesting gimmick and implemented better than any other auto mode I've seen). Oh, the Elites have 3 gammas to select from for at least some of the mode.

The number of errors I find in Cnet reviews has turned me off from even reading them. It appears that to get through the volume of video displays done that they post, they have MAYBE 1 week to work with any given display... maybe less. I ALWAYS find more tricks and tweaks after a month or 2 with any given display.

I agree, give me a couple monthes and i will master any tv. But i do find cnets reviews pretty accurate as far as out the box color accuracy claims or after they tweaked it to be pretty accurate.

I agree, give me a couple monthes and i will master any tv. But i do find cnets reviews pretty accurate as far as out the box color accuracy claims or after they tweaked it to be pretty accurate.
Funny statement coming from the guy who stated:
"You don't need to tell me that, i know that you and many others feel that way. Regardless how the end result picture looks. It's all data and numbers. I guess we will have to agree to disagree as i feel the human eye is the best video calibration tool ever to be devised."
and
"Dummy=Hiring a pro EVERY SINGLE TIME. You will never learn nothing, they want you to keep comming back.

Smart guy= Joining avs forums, learning from other owners what the best settings they recommend. And then using your own judgement what looks best."
Then said:
"There might be extremely slight differences from model to model. But from my experience all models perform pretty close and are consistent."

I don't trust your judgment of "accuracy." Nothing personal, just found your reply funny given your posting history.

Let me clear some things up. I'm not against manufacturers using data and tools for getting the best color accuracy. Or even someone like hogpilot that needed to pay just as much as the projector for a processor with cms to get accurate color accuracy. Tools and data that conform to accurate color accuracy i agree with. BUT, with a good eye you should know by looking at a picture if it's accurate or not. And people that pay for calibration on tv's that already come very accurate out the box with correct modes and a few tweaks is senseless imo. Forgive me if i don't buy into the bs that EVERY tv or projector needs professional calibration. Especially with displays like sonyXBR-pioneer elite-sony sxrd-non oversaturated models, etc.

I don't trust your judgment of "accuracy.


Everyone makes mistakes.

Let me clear some things up. I'm not against manufacturers using data and tools for getting the best color accuracy. Or even someone like hogpilot that needed to pay just as much as the projector for a processor with cms to get accurate color accuracy. Tools and data that conform to accurate color accuracy i agree with. BUT, with a good eye you should know by looking at a picture if it's accurate or not. And people that pay for calibration on tv's that already come very accurate out the box with correct modes and a few tweaks is senseless imo. Forgive me if i don't buy into the bs that EVERY tv or projector needs professional calibration. Especially with displays like sonyXBR-pioneer elite-sony sxrd-non oversaturated models, etc.
You've been PM'ed, to keep from cluttering up this thread.