I bought this little amplifier...[link removed by OP]. I like how it sounds and i wanted to bypass my receivers amplifier and use these little amps instead.

I wanted to purchase 2 more so i would have 6 channels but i'm looking at my onkyo receiver and there are no pre-outs. I only have terminal outs for the speakers.

Can I use this speaker level interface adapter to connect to my little amplifier. It comes with my buttkicker bka 300 kit. I called thebuttkicker.com and they told me they would sell me more of these speaker level interface adapters no problem.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3651/3390449795_0d3298fe42_o.jpg

Why? It is a 20wpc amp with unspecified distortion (yeah, the number they give is irrelevant and useless without qualifications). It seems likely that it is inferior to the typical amp in an Onkyo receiver.

Besides, the adapter you are asking about will work but the signals will still be passing through the Onkyo's amp before being attenuated to pass through the new amp. The result is the sum of the distortion of both amps and poorer SNR.

Again, why?

Why? It is a 20wpc amp with unspecified distortion (yeah, the number they give is irrelevant and useless without qualifications). It seems likely that it is inferior to the typical amp in an Onkyo receiver.

Besides, the adapter you are asking about will work but the signals will still be passing through the Onkyo's amp before being attenuated to pass through the new amp. The result is the sum of the distortion of both amps and poorer SNR.

Again, why?

True and true.

But if he likes the way it sounds, then I say go for it.

Use the speaker/line level adapter. Just keep the Onkyo at a low volume level. Only high enough to get a decent signal to the other amp.

Yes you will have additional distortion. If you like how it sounds, then get the other adapters.

[pic removed by OP]

on the packaging:
distortion is 0.05%
snr - 112dbA
freq response - 1hz - 70 khz

connecting the little amp directly from my dvd player right now...

its just that i could hear details in the audio tracks of movies my onkyo couldn't reproduce. It sounds clearer than my onkyo. It sounds like my dad's old fisher studio standard vacuum tube receiver

I guess when i connect the little amp to my speaker you could say its an active speaker, right? Is it possible to connect active speakers to a receiver with no pre-outs too? I guess this is the same method. using these attenuators.

Why? because i can't afford to replace my current receiver right now. I wish i had money to buy an outlaw 990...but then i would have to buy active monitors. i get headaches just thinking about where i can get the money for that...or when i will be able to save up for it.

Thanks xander for the advice about keeping onkyo at low volume level. i will try that when the adapter arrives.

thanks kal for explaining the distortion problem

This does not make them active speakers any more than they were before.

And those specs are still pretty useless.
THD at 1KHz? What about the rest of the spectrum?
FR with no indication of variation?
Feh.

This does not make them active speakers any more than they were before.

And those specs are still pretty useless.
THD at 1KHz? What about the rest of the spectrum?
FR with no indication of variation?
Feh.
THD at 1 khz is fairly common, while it doesn't mean much, it can be used for a relative comparison between amps... Now the part i always disliked is that most manufacturers don't mention at what wattage output those readings were taken at. I sometimes hookup my speaker output to an oscilloscope, and turnup the volume as i am playing a 1 khz tone. As you do this, you'll see the thd increase, and increase. Sure, there will be a wattage output where the thd is as the manufacturer stated... but you can more often than not, turnup the volume further, and get way past their stated thd. My yamaha is quoted as being a 0.06% thd at 1 khz. But, anything above the -20 dB mark and my thd shoots up further. Thankfully -20 is good enough for most of my listening (barring a low volume source).
As for the idea of the op, i would have to agree with Kal. All you'll be doing is compounding the distortion from the two. But, if you like the sound it produces, who are we to argue.

THD at 1 khz is fairly common, while it doesn't mean much, it can be used for a relative comparison between amps... Now the part i always disliked is that most manufacturers don't mention at what wattage output those readings were taken at. It says 25w.

yeah the values are pretty vague.

at least i know the connection is possible.

yup i love the sound. i think this little amp uses a tripath chip. [sentence removed by OP]

i wish i could experience the high end gear you guys are use to. are there any upcoming conventions/events for my virgin ears?

Where do you live? Must be a decent specialist dealer within driving distance.

It says 25w.
Yeah, i see that now on the box, i was just going off of the specs list given on the site the op linked to. Though my comment still stands as i stated "most", it just makes it a bit less pertinent to this discussion ;)

It says 25w.
It also says 2x20. I wonder if they even know.

yeah the values are pretty vague.

at least i know the connection is possible.

yup i love the sound. i think this little amp uses a tripath chip. thats what thinkgeek.com says.

i wish i could experience the high end gear you guys are use to. are there any upcoming conventions/events for my virgin ears?


I wish you would do a DBT with your AVR and that amp.

I wish you would do a DBT with your AVR and that amp.

what is a dbt? how do you do that test?

what is a dbt?

Double Blind Test: Then you would see (or hear) that your receiver is actually much better amp than that substandard thing.:eek:

Double Blind Test: Then you would see (or hear) that your receiver is actually much better amp than that substandard thing.:eek:

ah...yeah will definitely do that. i hope when i connect the amp to the avr it sounds the same. I'm enjoying the amp right now with stereo. it's definitely better than the SQ of my onkyo receiver.

what is a dbt? how do you do that test?

You'd be the listener, but you can't know which one you're listening to at the time. Best way would be that someone else hooks up your setup with the amps, and then without the amps (with them choosing in which order without you knowing that order), with you out of the room when they're setting it up.

The person hooking it up should be out of the room before you enter, and have a third person (who like you, doesn't know if the amp is in place or if it's just the receiver) be the one to record the results of you liking one setup or the other, and probably have them play the music/movie (basically the third person doesn't know which is which either.)

Basically you can't know if the amp is hooked up or not when you're listening. You just listen and say which test session you like better. After it's over, the one who did the hook up tells you which session was which.

thanks tulpa...sounds like fun. I will have my brothers set it up for me. I want to be the listener.

Where do you live? Must be a decent specialist dealer within driving distance.

Los angeles, California. What brands should I try out first?

Los angeles, California. What brands should I try out first???? Try out for what? Amp? AVR? Either way, you cannot listen to one of those without listening to the source, the speakers and the room.

??? Try out for what? Amp? AVR? Either way, you cannot listen to one of those without listening to the source, the speakers and the room.

Oh i thought the specialist dealer you mentioned would let me audition equipment. I am guessing he will be like a consultant , determine equipment by budget, room size, etc. before i can get a chance to hear the equipment?

John, You can try out a lot of stuff. That is what the dealer is there for. What I think Kal is asking you is what specifically do you want to try out and for what purpose? Do you want to listen to real amps or a new AVR? Seems you made up your mind on those little no-name amps already.

Also, as Kal indicated listening to amps/avrs whatever is not going to accomplish much because you will be listening to different speakers in a different room than your own. Speakers and room make a much bigger impact on the sound than any amp can.

Amps should really be pretty much indistinguishable unless they are doing something (Which may or may not be a good thing) to the signal. There is no doubt that the amp in your onkyo is better than those fedility amps. If you like what they sound like, fine but I am sure its not a better amp.

Oh i thought the specialist dealer you mentioned would let me audition equipment. So did I. I am imagining that you would go to a specialist shop and get an opportunity to hear a system. But this raises the issue of what you are looking for as you might tell the dealer that so the demo would be relevant. You asked "What brands should I try out first?"


I am guessing he will be like a consultant , determine equipment by budget, room size, etc. before i can get a chance to hear the equipment?Unless you are serious about buying, I wouldn't abuse the time/patience of such a person. Just find a decent store.

Yes those adapters should work fine.
Since you already own the amp, and the adapters, it costs you nothing but time to try them out. Good idea to get your brothers involved. Make an evening out of it. Quality family time listening to music is always time well spent.

Yes those adapters should work fine.
Since you already own the amp, and the adapters, it costs you nothing but time to try them out. Good idea to get your brothers involved. Make an evening out of it. Quality family time listening to music is always time well spent.

yeah i have only one adapter...i ordered another for the other channel. brother told me better to test both channels. i think it will arrive tomorrow. right now i'm watching movies, playing games, listening to music tracks using the amp...not using my onkyo receiver nymore.

had one problem recently. I was playing the avia home theater guide's audio test...and the speaker connectors for the right channel is backwards. I was getting out-of-phase audio for the in-phase test L-R test...after i switched the + and - of the speaker cable, everything was ok now. I wrote the company about it...they should fix this...other customers might not have thought of this and just returned the unit.

UPDATE: i was looking at the image on the merchant's website and the image has the correct speaker connections...the unit i received had the red and black connectors backwards. wonder if i can get a replacement or a free amp. hmmm :)

had one problem recently. I was playing the avia home theater guide's audio test...and the speaker connectors for the right channel is backwards. I was getting out-of-phase audio for the in-phase test L-R test...after i switched the + and - of the speaker cable, everything was ok now. ? Well, now do you think you really need to add those amps? :rolleyes:

Good news. Adapters came. Brothers set it up. Used an SPL meter to set the reference level to 70 db.

It was a significant improvement. First time I was able to listen at reference level when the little amplifiers were connected.

Without the amps connected the sound quality of the onkyo receiver alone sounded harsh and uncomfortable on the ears.

With the amps connected, the sound was loud but easy on the ears. very clear.

We played Casino Royale, opening fight scene. It was the first time i noticed the guy mumbling words while james bond dunked his head in the sink filled with water.

I will be purchasing 2 more of the amps and speaker level adapters to connect all 6 channels. The adapters work well.

My brother connected the center channel to the amp for now until the other amps arrive. He still can't believe how little it is. He's getting one for his dorm.

[picture removed by OP]

Did you know when the amps were hooked in and when they weren't before or during the test?

If you did, the test is meaningless. If you didn't, well, you found out what you like more or less objectively.

Did you know when the amps were hooked in and when they weren't before or during the test?

If you did, the test is meaningless. If you didn't, well, you found out what you like more or less objectively.

didn't know which setup was which. had a sleep eye mask on. brother wrote down my comments...it was fun. yeah i love the setup. i love how cheap it is too hehe :)

Wouldn't this be something similar to the old "booster amps" of car audio? Unless the speakers are amazingly efficient, I would believe that you would quickly distort a 20w amp during a film at reference level...maybe not the dialogue, but certainly the sound effects.

Wouldn't this be something similar to the old "booster amps" of car audio? Unless the speakers are amazingly efficient, I would believe that you would quickly distort a 20w amp during a film at reference level...maybe not the dialogue, but certainly the sound effects.

that's what i thought...i thought it would sound tinny and full of static but it worked. without the onkyo receiver they can get really loud so may be that could be a reason.

Usually after calibrating for the 70db reference level i could never listen at the level...way too loud on using the onkyo we have. always had to dial the volume down. finally can listen to it.

waiting for the other amps to arrive and set up all channels.

that's what i thought...i thought it would sound tinny and full of static but it worked. without the onkyo receiver they can get really loud so may be that could be a reason.

Usually after calibrating for the 70db reference level i could never listen at the level...way too loud on using the onkyo we have. always had to dial the volume down. finally can listen to it.

waiting for the other amps to arrive and set up all channels.
You sure you don't have any sort of dynamics compression setting turned on when using the onkyo? Otherwise what you say makes no sense, as 70dB measured using one amp vs another is still 70 dB. No one should sound louder than the other.
Though it is possible the new amps are being stressed and in turn compressing the audio, and so you feel you hear new things since all sounds, small and large, are near equal in volume. If thats the case, i'd look into actually turning on dynamic compression on your onkyo and try just using your onkyo amp.

...
Usually after calibrating for the 70db reference level i could never listen at the level...way too loud on using the onkyo we have. always had to dial the volume down. finally can listen to it....

Mebbe I don't understand what you mean, but just because you calibrate your system at "x" SPL, doesn't mean you have to listen to it at that level. Using the volume control to set a lower listening level is perfectly acceptable.

Mebbe I don't understand what you mean, but just because you calibrate your system at "x" SPL, doesn't mean you have to listen to it at that level. Using the volume control to set a lower listening level is perfectly acceptable.

that's what i thought and what i meant to say. usually after calibrating the speakers at reference levels i have to lower the listening level because it is too loud.

The loudness is the same for both setups(with and without the little amp). It's just that with the little amp connected, its not harsh on the ears and i don't feel i have to lower the listening level anymore.

Like in the scene in casino royale where james bond rams into a concrete wall with a wheel dozer and is right behind the terrorist he's pursuing in the construction site. Or when the pipes from a crane fall to the ground below after bond releases them to lift him up to the top of the crane. Usually I will lower the listening level but now i don't have to.

The loudness is the same for both setups(with and without the little amp). It's just that with the little amp connected, its not harsh on the ears and i don't feel i have to lower the listening level anymore.

Like in the scene in casino royale where james bond rams into a concrete wall with a wheel dozer and is right behind the terrorist he's pursuing in the construction site. Or when the pipes from a crane fall to the ground below after bond releases them to lift him up to the top of the crane. Usually I will lower the listening level but now i don't have to.

I figured it out. You are having problems balancing your various speakers, and these little amps are sort of pushing you into a different set of gain adjustements.

You're still pushing the sound through the amps in your speakers. It could be that they have forgotten how to drive speakers, but that is very rare.

I've been around the block just a few times in the past 50+ years of working with audio, and no properly-working power amp is as bad as the amps in your receivers seem to be. They are either broken or your various level settings are not right.

You previously mentioned problems hearing dialog. That's usually due to the mains being too loud and the center channel not being loud enough. For get about fancy calibration schemes, just adjust the speakers so that they sound right.

You're still pushing the sound through the amps in your speakers. It could be that they have forgotten how to drive speakers, but that is very rare.

I'm not sure what you are saying here - as I understand it his speakers have no amps. And I've never heard of an amp forgetting how to drive speakers.

Lets give the OP the benefit of the doubt for now.

It is possible that the little amps he bought sound better to him than the built in onkyo amps. He does not say what Onkyo he has. But I suspect based on the description is it a cheap HTIB type of receiver. Does it have a model number?

Sure, the way he is using these little amps doesn't seem to make a lot of sense - he is after all passing the signal through the Onkyo amps, then through a cheap speaker to line level adapter (probably just a couple of resistors), then to his little amps. But it is quite possible the cheap Onkyo amps are happier driving a high impedance load (which is what the adapters provide). So maybe, just maybe, he really is getting better sound than before. Who knows, it is possible. . . maybe. . . Heck, a low end Onkyo probably doesn't have much money invested in output gain stages, and maybe they are not very good.

Output transistors can die, and maybe not making them work so hard results in better sound?

On the other hand, he is paying $50 for two channels of amplification, plus the cost of the adapters, plus the cost of the receiver. He might be better off selling everything he owns and putting that money toward a more capable receiver.

This could turn out to be a useful learning experience for him. Learning is always a good thing. You should have seen some of the crazy things I've tried over the years - learning by doing can be a very powerful method.

Or, he could be building and trying to sell these little amps and this is one of his attempts at marketing.

If he were building and selling them, he would probably know what double-blind testing is.

I certainly wouldn't buy anything audio from someone who doesn't know that term. :D I guess he could be playing dumb, but still...

On the other hand, he is paying $50 for two channels of amplification, plus the cost of the adapters, plus the cost of the receiver. He might be better off selling everything he owns and putting that money toward a more capable receiver.

This could turn out to be a useful learning experience for him. Learning is always a good thing. You should have seen some of the crazy things I've tried over the years - learning by doing can be a very powerful method.

Or, he could be building and trying to sell these little amps and this is one of his attempts at marketing.

Sorry. I didn't realize the way I am posting seems like a marketing attempt. I removed the links and pics. I don't want to get banned.

I just posted because I wanted to know if it was possible to connect the amp to the speaker output of my receiver using the adapters. I didn't want to break anything that i won't be able to replace right away. Then someone mentioned a DBT which i thought was interesting, so i wanted to try it. then I wanted to post the results. I guess the thread went off topic. Please close it if necessary. Thanks for all the advice and tips.

Yes, my onkyo is a cheap receiver...got it as part of a HTIB. so maybe anything sounds better than it hehe :)

Its an onkyo htr-520 . so very old and few features. it doesn't even have pre-outs.

Yes my speakers are passive. threw out the htib speakers and brother made 6 DIY ones but kept the subwoofer.

yeah it maybe expensive -

3 little amps - 180
6 adapters - 42
__________________
$222

I really wanted

6 mackie hrmkii 624s - $2700
outlaw 990 - 600
________________________
$3300

but thats an impossible dream for now hehe. i can only spare a few hundreds right now.

if there are any other words that may seem like me marketing the amp i will remove after i review the thread.

sorry again.

UPDATE: i think i removed any pic, links or sentences that appear to be a marketing attempt.

I'm not sure what you are saying here - as I understand it his speakers have no amps.


Right, his onkyo receiver houses his origional amplifiers.


And I've never heard of an amp forgetting how to drive speakers.


I was speaking figuratively. However it happens -various parts failures can make a power amp sound OK driving a high impedance load, but not do well driving a low impedance load. For this to happen to all of the amplifiers in a multichannel receiver would be pretty remarkable, but not impossible.



Lets give the OP the benefit of the doubt for now.


I was. If I wanted to be mean I could say that his ears are broken! ;-)


It is possible that the little amps he bought sound better to him than the built in onkyo amps.


I wouldn't expect them to sound any different. However, we could have a case of "Constructor's ear" where his personal involvement with the little amps or at least the idea of using them is dominating his perceptions. But, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and not going there very seriously at this time.



He does not say what Onkyo he has. But I suspect based on the description is it a cheap HTIB type of receiver. Does it have a model number?


Good question, but even a HTIB receiver should be able to drive speakers.



Sure, the way he is using these little amps doesn't seem to make a lot of sense - he is after all passing the signal through the Onkyo amps, then through a cheap speaker to line level adapter (probably just a couple of resistors), then to his little amps.


I'm not worried about the line level adaptor - I've designed and built my own version of them (I'm a degreed and experienced engineer, also very experienced with hands-on electronics and when I built my own - two resistors per channel!)

The mind-bending part is where the Onkyo amps are still in the signal path. Not that I am worried about them causing problems if in good operating condition, but because of all the potential failures that are excluded by their presence in a presumably good signal path.


But it is quite possible the cheap Onkyo amps are happier driving a high impedance load (which is what the adapters provide).


Just any good power amp measures better when driving a high impedance load. However, just about any good modern power amp measures very well, as long as it is not overloaded.



So maybe, just maybe, he really is getting better sound than before. Who knows, it is possible. . . maybe. . . Heck, a low end Onkyo probably doesn't have much money invested in output gain stages, and maybe they are not very good.


Not very good by modern power amp standards is still pretty good in the cosmic scheme of things. Remember tubes? ;-) I do! :-(


Output transistors can die, and maybe not making them work so hard results in better sound?


Usually a bad output transistor has pretty catastrophic effects.



On the other hand, he is paying $50 for two channels of amplification, plus the cost of the adapters, plus the cost of the receiver. He might be better off selling everything he owns and putting that money toward a more capable receiver.


I bought one of those little Tripath amps a few years back. It sounded OK driving NHT super Zeroes, but it stank on the test bench.



This could turn out to be a useful learning experience for him. Learning is always a good thing. You should have seen some of the crazy things I've tried over the years - learning by doing can be a very powerful method.


Been there, done that.

I used to believe what I read in The Absolute Sound - I was a charter subscriber of both it and Stereophile.



Or, he could be building and trying to sell these little amps and this is one of his attempts at marketing.

Well, he picked a pretty tough house to play to, if that is his plan. BS does not do well here, I note.

I'm not marketing anything....i removed all the links. I didn't even mention the name of the amps.

I wouldn't know how the tripath amplifiers sounded a few years back because i never tried them...and they are all discontinued so I would not know. UPDATE: sorry bout that...i saw that they are still on sale. but more expensive then what i have. and lesser watts. the one i have is 50 watts mono, 20 watts stereo

I like how these sound because they remind me of how my parents' old tube receiver sounded. clear, detailed, and can be played loud without being harsh on the ears.

At the end of the day all that really matters is if you are satisfied. And, it sounds like you mostly are now.

no

no

Are you answering the question of the thread?

well i connected all 6 channels.

I tried just using 3 amps - front left and right in the first, center and surround back in the second, and surround left and right in the 3rd. It didn't work.

Using only 3 amps made the sound of the right channel come out of the left channel and the right channel was not as loud...

i solved this by using only one amp to power one channel which worked well.

as for the speaker to line level adapters i used from buttkicker. they work too and i'm glad they are one channel adapters. if they were stereo, i might have had a problem.

I also had to use the in-phase/out-of-phase tests on AVIA DVD.

with the improved sound and my buttkicker i'm very satisfied with the setup...still going over the rest of my movie collection.

Find a friend who is an old lab rat, open up the receiver and find some point where the preamp feeds the power amps, tap in there to new jacks. It really burns me that modern AVR's don't have the pre-out , main-in jacks of old. I have had to add them to three units now. Example, my Denon has 9 amps in it. I only use three. I could use the other 6 with an external crossover for mids and tweets if I could get to them, only needing one external bass amp.

Don't know which cheap amps he was referring to, but I tested/listened to the $9 off e-bay and found it a lot better than expected. Everyone uses the same chips, and the chips have gotten a LOT better. Is my bench 35W Rotel better, yea, but not by much.
They are only really 20W or so, not the 350 they advertise. I use it for my computer speakers. I was thinking a pile of them would make a great way to power many pairs of wall plates for whole-house background speakers. 20 channels for $100. Would I use them for my mains? No, I already have a pile of used Haflers for that ;)