The truth about the SVS PB-Ultra 13.... [Text View]

bossobass

03-30-09, 01:07 PM

So you are saying the PB 13 has lower distortion then all sealed subs?

A JLAudio F-113 produces less harmonic distortion for the same output below 20Hz than a PB-13 Ultra in sealed mode.

The Gotham is indeed, considering features, size, industrial design and performance, one of the best commercial subs available and would be at or near the top of anyone's test results list.

The PB-13 is a great subwoofer, but being realistic, its sealed mode is not its strong point and most probably should have been scratched off the list of its otherwise superb features list.

It goes like this: Sealed OR ported. No one has ever seriously suggested that plugging the pipes of a properly designed ported sub will result in a properly designed sealed sub. If sealed and SVS are your preference then wait for their announced sealed subs down the road.

Seaton's Submersive is one of the best values available, stripped of the extraordinarily designed and executed looks and front panel controls of the Gotham, it features a virtually vibration free dual opposed twin 15" configuration and great output for a lot less $$. Two Submersives will satisfy the requirements for low end in the vast majority of systems in existence.

I haven't seen or heard Hsu's sealed 1X15" sub and/or the combination packages, but solid people who have have told me it's a great product.

The F'ing Irene scene in BHD does have a bunch of output in the single digit region which is a complete non-event at anything approaching normal playback levels. Yes - if you have a subwoofer system which can play 5-7 Hz cleanly at extreme SPLs - you can probably feel/perceive this contribution.

At the Thigpen Rotary demos, all single-digit source material was a non-event at normal/typical playback levels until Mark Seaton took the helm and wicked up the volume to Dolby Reference Level and then the participants started to appreciate what all the fuss was about.

The usable sub-harmonic in the Irene BHD scene occurs at ~18 Hz - that is what contributes the foundation/solidity to that scene for subwoofers which can reproduce it clean/loud (and most good subs can).

Based on many tests of this conventional wisdom, I'd have to disagree.

Back in the day, SVS posted many times in many forums that a certain length of time was needed to acclimate to clean and deep bass vs years of hearing not-so clean bass.

The same is true of content below 18Hz at normal levels. A simple HP filter switched in and out of the signal chain while replaying scenes with such content, with all else being unchanged, yields a 100% agreement that a difference is perceived.

It doesn't take anywhere near the ridiculous levels most claim. Instead, it takes time with a flat response to recognize the effect after years of grossly distorted bumps in a narrow slice of the BW and nothing below that.

Soon, one is able to detect VLF instantly and the waterfall graphs confirm it and it doesn't require 120dB playback levels.

After all, if most people will perceive a closing car door as better quality because of the VLF content in the sound of the door closing, wouldn't one have to conclude that it wasn't because the VLF was 120dB?

Bosso

mojomike

03-30-09, 01:28 PM

A JLAudio F-113 produces less harmonic distortion for the same output below 20Hz than a PB-13 Ultra in sealed mode.

What about above 20hz? Wouldn't distortion there matter even more where it's likely to be more audible?

The PB-13 is a great subwoofer, but being realistic, its sealed mode is not its strong point and most probably should have been scratched off the list of its otherwise superb features list.

It goes like this: Sealed OR ported. No one has ever seriously suggested that plugging the pipes of a properly designed ported sub will result in a properly designed sealed sub. If sealed and SVS are your preference then wait for their announced sealed subs down the road.

Actually that very thing was specifically suggested by Ed Mullen and recommended as a viable operating mode in smaller rooms or with multiple subs. Ed stated clearly that a ported sub with plugged ports is indeed a sealed sub in every sense.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1130717&page=2

Ed Mullen

03-30-09, 02:11 PM

Maybe everyone would feel better if we issued a dedicated sealed version of the PB13U with a slab of MDF up front instead of plugged ports? :rolleyes:

The PB13U in sealed mode has exemplary behavior - its more of a sealed subwoofer in the classic sense than many dedicated sealed subs on the market. It has a flat FR, a low-Q alignment with a broad knee at ~30 Hz, and a 2nd order roll-off (very similar to the Seaton Submersive, actually). It also has excellent power response with virtually no output compression (credit the large cabinet). And the CEA-2010 output score is quite high - better than other dedicated sealed subwoofers in its price class.

In short I wouldn't change a thing about its peformance in sealed mode, and it certainly wouldn't perform any better in a smaller box, nor would it perform better with an MDF front baffle instead of plugged ports.

The F113 employs a high pass at ~22 Hz and exhibits a 4th order roll-off which will not take advantage of available room gain nearly as well as the PB13U will in sealed mode. In order to achieve a flat in-room response to 10 Hz, the F113 will require an EQ curve which in essence defeats/overcomes its 2nd order high pass. This will chew-up amp power and worsen the distortion profile. It also has considerable output compression at the limits (because of the comparatively small cabinet), despite its ability to play very loud >40 Hz.

Ed Mullen

03-30-09, 02:27 PM

The same is true of content below 18Hz at normal levels. A simple HP filter switched in and out of the signal chain while replaying scenes with such content, with all else being unchanged, yields a 100% agreement that a difference is perceived.

It doesn't take anywhere near the ridiculous levels most claim. Instead, it takes time with a flat response to recognize the effect after years of grossly distorted bumps in a narrow slice of the BW and nothing below that.

Soon, one is able to detect VLF instantly and the waterfall graphs confirm it and it doesn't require 120dB playback levels.

After all, if most people will perceive a closing car door as better quality because of the VLF content in the sound of the door closing, wouldn't one have to conclude that it wasn't because the VLF was 120dB?

Bosso

Interesting that you denigrate the PB13U in sealed mode, and yet support the JL subs - which we all know employ a 2nd order high pass filter at 22 Hz. And yet here you state how use of the same kills output at ULFs.

In fact you've proven it in experiments by using a 2nd order high pass filter imposed on your own subs (which are otherwise flat to 3 Hz) at 20 Hz and have claimed attendees can easily hear the difference over no high pass, and I do believe it.

Regardless, the audibility of ULFs is frequency dependent. Were you to slide that high pass down to say 15 Hz or 10 Hz in your experiment, the differences between high passed and not will naturally become progressively less audible. I still maintain that ULFs in the single digit range must be played at very high volumes to be perceived. Try your experiment again with a 15 Hz, and then a 10 Hz high pass and see how many people can tell the difference between a flat response to 3 Hz, and a reponse which is flat to 10 Hz, and then high passed below that.

Mark Seaton

03-30-09, 04:06 PM

This is an interesting question.

There is a scene in Blackhawk down where the choppers take off. It this the Irene scene. On a waterfall it is a very low sound like 10 Hz. People rave about it saying it is awesome to hear that low tone. I have dual HSU ULS-15's. I was perplexed. I measured my subs flat to 5hz and I found that scene unimpressive. If I did not have the grill off and an SPL meter (96db uncorrected 109 corrected) in my hand I would not know there was any sound. There is an odd sensation that's about it.

If you're only seeing peaks of 96dBC on a fast setting, you need to bump the volume by 10-20dB to get a serious impression from that scene.

As Ed already clarified, and as Keith Yates described in detail through his Way Down Deep Subwoofer report (http://www.ultimateavmag.com/features/604way/), there are aspects to be experienced with uncompressed playback of the energy centered in the mid 30s, down near 18Hz, and there of course is the recorded energy at 7-9Hz which is open for plenty of debate.

I also can't overstate the importance of the in-room frequency response and the subwoofer's relative level to the main speakers. While thresholds are much higher down low, once you pass that threshold, changes of a few dB are noticed as more significant than at higher frequencies. The trick is getting "enough" down below 20Hz after you've achieved a smooth response from 20-100Hz.

I do disagree with the notion this is all distortion as I have a handful of experiences that fly in the face of that, most notably the Thigpen TRW demonstration Ed referred to as well as my installation of prototype subwoofers tuned to 11Hz from which I had spot checked distortion at 4-7% THD at 102-107dB in the 12-17Hz range... at the listening position. Items rattling in the room started dominating at higher levels.

Such scenes are in my experience more intense on such systems. While I do find a subtle, but worthwhile benefit to VLF extension at moderate listening levels, the most impressive benefits do come at higher playback levels. Of course in rooms with few mechanical/structural rattles, good acoustics and speakers, -10 to 0dB should not sound strained or uncomfortable.

Mark Seaton

03-30-09, 04:17 PM

Interesting that you denigrate the PB13U in sealed mode, and yet support the JL subs - which we all know employ a 2nd order high pass filter at 22 Hz. And yet here you state how use of the same kills output at ULFs.

Just so we don't get off on a tangent for Ed being the one to mention the JL's high pass, I have noted the same previously as this can be seen in published measurements and I've measured it personally. Some will call it a feature, some a weakness. It's a design choice, but definitely one which doesn't afford the VLF extension which has been noted from a handful of sealed subwoofers measured in enclosed rooms.

Regardless, the audibility of ULFs is frequency dependent. Were you to slide that high pass down to say 15 Hz or 10 Hz in your experiment, the differences between high passed and not will naturally become progressively less audible. I still maintain that ULFs in the single digit range must be played at very high volumes to be perceived. Try your experiment again with a 15 Hz, and then a 10 Hz high pass and see how many people can tell the difference between a flat response to 3 Hz, and a reponse which is flat to 10 Hz, and then high passed below that.

Agreed. It's always nice to have more bandwidth, but below 8-12Hz the benefits and realities of actually passing recorded signals through the reproduction chain get increasingly difficult and expensive with diminishing benefits. I would prefer a system coupled down to 2-4Hz with tons of headroom, but the reality is that huge power to 8-12Hz is already a HUGE step beyond what is commonly available.

In my own quests for the most extreme, unless someone else defines a lower target for their own reasons, I don't make concessions on performance for anything lower than the 7-9Hz content on Blackhawk Down.

lfe man

03-30-09, 04:28 PM

spyboy, genelec is finnish, not goddamn swedish:mad:, if you mean that.;):)

J_Palmer_Cass

03-30-09, 04:30 PM

Yeah, there's a lot of subs out there, from IB DIY to box DIY to uber expensive built in the foundation subs. The PB Ultra is far from the best sub, not even close IMO.

That being said, for the $ spent, and notwithstanding DIY as already mentioned, you won't find a better sub.

Shortly after getting my sub, I demo'd a pair of Godfather subs (retail was $6000 cdn... EACH) so 12 grand total. The demo was "Open Range", the gun fight scene, and I tell ya those had quite the impact to say the least. I put in the Transformer movie then, and went to the final battle scene, where Ironhide fires his prepulsion jets into the ground and dives over the screaming woman. Those Godfather subs, all $12,000, could not reproduce the low end extension of that scene that my lone PB 13 Ultra can. I was shocked actually, but grinning from ear to ear just the same. For Open Range, the twin Gods were better, but the PB Ultra does just fine and slams me in the chest as well. So lets see, 2 grand (with tax delivered in cdn dollars when I got it) vs. $12,000 grand - and my 2 grand sub wins. Gotta love it :D

I have never done a waterfall for Open Range, but the Ironhide flip scene from Transformers does not go down that low. You don't even hit 20 Hz at a high volume level for that scene. It just looks like a very high level from 50 Hz down to about 28 Hz for that scene.

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/Red_Foreman/captTransformers_Ch-19_1hr_55min-1.jpg

t6902wf

03-30-09, 04:34 PM

If you're only seeing peaks of 96dBC on a fast setting, you need to bump the volume by 10-20dB to get a serious impression from that scene.

So you are saying you need to hit 119-129db corrected in the Irene scene to make it impressive. Mark I bow to your expertise but if the mains and the sub are level matched I don't believe the audio mix will do that even at MV of 0. If you have the power and push the sub beyond the level of the mains maybe, but that is not the goal.

Mark Seaton

03-30-09, 04:50 PM

So you are saying you need to hit 119-129db corrected in the Irene scene to make it impressive. Mark I bow to your expertise but if the mains and the sub are level matched I don't believe the audio mix will do that even at MV of 0. If you have the power and push the sub beyond the level of the mains maybe, but that is not the goal.

Hi Bill,

I am not saying the level should be 119-129dB. I was commenting on your observation of 96dBC on the meter. The assumption of adding a correction factor to this reading is incorrect. The meter does not differentiate higher or lower frequency, so you are measuring the combined loudness of the full scene. When measuring a system or just the subwoofer when playing most demo scenes, I expect you would see readings around 100-115dB when played back at higher levels. 5-10dB at these low frequencies can make a huge difference.

In most cases the energy which is much more noticeable in the 'Irene scene is that found in the upper teens. It's not personally one of my preferred demo scenes, but it can be quite impressive when there is plenty of headroom down low.

spyboy

03-30-09, 05:02 PM

spyboy, genelec is finnish, not goddamn swedish:mad:, if you mean that.;):)

I knew that the OP is Swedish and that Genelec is Finnish. I was thinking that Genelec may be more readily available in Europe.

Gelinas

03-30-09, 05:19 PM

bossobass

03-30-09, 07:02 PM

Interesting that you denigrate the PB13U in sealed mode, and yet support the JL subs - which we all know employ a 2nd order high pass filter at 22 Hz. And yet here you state how use of the same kills output at ULFs.

In fact you've proven it in experiments by using a 2nd order high pass filter imposed on your own subs (which are otherwise flat to 3 Hz) at 20 Hz and have claimed attendees can easily hear the difference over no high pass, and I do believe it.

Regardless, the audibility of ULFs is frequency dependent. Were you to slide that high pass down to say 15 Hz or 10 Hz in your experiment, the differences between high passed and not will naturally become progressively less audible. I still maintain that ULFs in the single digit range must be played at very high volumes to be perceived. Try your experiment again with a 15 Hz, and then a 10 Hz high pass and see how many people can tell the difference between a flat response to 3 Hz, and a reponse which is flat to 10 Hz, and then high passed below that.

Now, now...you should know better than to roll your eyes at me.

Denigrate?

The CEA scores go to 12.5Hz, and the F-113 bests the PB-13 across the board.

PB-13: 96dB @ 15Hz with 75% THD, below 15Hz, the THD is in the stratosphere.
JL-113: 96dB @ 15Hz with 25% THD (similar to any smaller sealed, high powered 1X15" based DIY box+amp.)

You're better off with 3dB more output at 15Hz and 20% THD keeping it ported in 10Hz tune. Nearly identical roll off, choked off below 10Hz anyway. What am I missing here?

As far as using a HP filter, let's just suppose I haven't conducted the experiments you suggest. Once you get to 10Hz, why would you introduce a HP at all? If the sub is properly designed, you wouldn't. If it's higher output you insensitive, deaf types require, add subs, which, BTW, is a a lot easier with a smaller sub, which means that you need to design the driver specifically for the sealed sub.

Bosso

bossobass

03-30-09, 07:24 PM

Hi Bill,

I am not saying the level should be 119-129dB. I was commenting on your observation of 96dBC on the meter. The assumption of adding a correction factor to this reading is incorrect. The meter does not differentiate higher or lower frequency, so you are measuring the combined loudness of the full scene. When measuring a system or just the subwoofer when playing most demo scenes, I expect you would see readings around 100-115dB when played back at higher levels. 5-10dB at these low frequencies can make a huge difference.

In most cases the energy which is much more noticeable in the 'Irene scene is that found in the upper teens. It's not personally one of my preferred demo scenes, but it can be quite impressive when there is plenty of headroom down low.

This is correct, and goes a long way to dispelling the idea that single digits have to played back a extremely high levels.

The Irene scene calls for 105dB peaks at 7Hz at reference level playback. The RS (or any hand held SPL meter) reading is the sum of all of the output across the entire spectrum.

To experience those 7Hz transients alone at 120dB, you'd have to run the subs 15dB hot, resulting in 130dB peaks on the meter. Not something I recommend trying with less than 8 Submersives...in which case, something I highly recommend trying. :D

Bosso

chengbin

03-30-09, 07:25 PM

PB-13: 96dB @ 15Hz with 75% THD, below 15Hz, the THD is in the stratosphere.

???

Even in the least efficient sealed mode, the PB13 is only producing 13% THD @ 15Hz @95dB

mojomike

03-30-09, 08:18 PM

Now, now...you should know better than to roll your eyes at me.

Denigrate?

The CEA scores go to 12.5Hz, and the F-113 bests the PB-13 across the board.

PB-13: 96dB @ 15Hz with 75% THD, below 15Hz, the THD is in the stratosphere.
JL-113: 96dB @ 15Hz with 25% THD (similar to any smaller sealed, high powered 1X15" based DIY box+amp.)

Bosso

It's easy to pick and choose those distortion figures that support your argument. It's so easy that I can do it too. Let's look at at distortion at a very audible 30hz:

PB13
95db <2%
100db <3%
105db 4%
110db 9%

f113
95db <5%
100db 7%
105db 12%
110db 16%

bossobass

03-30-09, 11:38 PM

It's easy to pick and choose those distortion figures that support your argument. It's so easy that I can do it too. Let's look at at distortion at a very audible 30hz:

PB13
95db <2%
100db <3%
105db 4%
110db 9%

f113
95db <5%
100db 7%
105db 12%
110db 16%

You're the one picking and choosing. I said "across the board", you selected 30Hz.

The CEA results support my post, but not yours.

Bosso

mojomike

03-31-09, 12:40 AM

The CEA scores go to 12.5Hz, and the F-113 bests the PB-13 across the board.

PB-13: 96dB @ 15Hz with 75% THD, below 15Hz, the THD is in the stratosphere.
JL-113: 96dB @ 15Hz with 25% THD (similar to any smaller sealed, high powered 1X15" based DIY box+amp.)

Bosso

Here you've obviously picked distortion figures at 15hz.

You're the one picking and choosing. I said "across the board", you selected 30Hz.

The CEA results support my post, but not yours.

Bosso

I chose distortion figures at 30hz. Shouldn't distortion at 30hz be more relevent than ones at 15hz? 30hz is well into the audible range and where there is far more content. My figures are supported by these tests by Ilkka:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/8147-svs-pb13-ultra-sealed-new.html
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/8152-jl-audio-fathom-f113-new.html

Yosh70

03-31-09, 01:23 AM

Maybe I'm missing something but why are you guys comparing distortion figures and output levels between a $1600 and a $3600 sub? Shouldnt the JL be twice as good?

My mind is made up.....the value and performance of the SVS Ultra is enough to make it a clear winner in my eyes.
Now to round up $1900 (Canadian) and get one from sonicboomaudio.com

TheFactor

03-31-09, 02:32 AM

mojomike

03-31-09, 08:45 AM

Maybe I'm missing something but why are you guys comparing distortion figures and output levels between a $1600 and a $3600 sub? Shouldnt the JL be twice as good?

It's not really that simple. Let's assume for the moment that the performance between the two are similar. It's hard to get that sort of performance out of a package as compact as the JL and you pay a premium for it.

To me the SVS is a far better value, but I also have no problem with the size of the PB13.

brandonnash

03-31-09, 10:29 AM

You can look at it this way. The original poster was wanting to know if the ultra is the end all sub. The answer is no and yes. It can be debated back and forth about differences in sub. Some can play louder or lower or with better sq, but at what cost? That cost for some is just money. Some peoples deciding factor may be aesthetics or enclosure size.

I hate using car analogies, but its very easy to do in this case. Want a fast car that's expensive but does not have elite pricing? Buy a viper or top end corvette. Is it a roomy easy riding car? No. Want a great all around car then a high end BMW may work for you. Point is you can figit around with what you think is the best sub, but from an all around aspect you will be hard pressed to find a sub that will play louder, lower, with less distortion and a decent size box with a good finish for its price.

spyboy

03-31-09, 11:01 AM

"The original poster was wanting to know if the Ultra is the end all sub."

That is not what he said. He asked a question about what OTHER subs are out there that can compete successfully with the PB-13, including those that may cost more than the PB-13, but are not "$100,000".

Quote, "Where are the better subs?"

As has been discussed in various other threads, the subs that can outperform the PB-13 are being sold by Danley, Seaton, JTR. Other possible competitors include the Epik Conquest and the Genelec HTS6.

Don't know if you are aware that Art Sonneborn replaced his 4 SVS PB-12 Plus/2's with 4 Seaton Submersives. Art could have had PB-13s if he wanted them.

And...later this year or early next year, the Seaton designed Sasquatch 18 from Tweak City Audio should arrive. This ~$1,800 sub promises to be a very capable design.

bossobass

03-31-09, 11:48 AM

Here you've obviously picked distortion figures at 15hz.

If you were following the thread, we were discussing below 20Hz:

A JLAudio F-113 produces less harmonic distortion for the same output below 20Hz than a PB-13 Ultra in sealed mode.

I chose distortion figures at 30hz. Shouldn't distortion at 30hz be more relevent than ones at 15hz? 30hz is well into the audible range and where there is far more content. My figures are supported by these tests by Ilkka:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/8147-svs-pb13-ultra-sealed-new.html
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/8152-jl-audio-fathom-f113-new.html

I don't visit the site you've linked to, but match those figures you posted links to to Ilk's CEA results and I believe your point will evaporate.

The PB-13 in sealed mode exhibits high harmonics below 20Hz, even worse in the cylinder version, at 2M GP. It does a much better job in its 10Hz tune ported mode.

Maybe I'm missing something but why are you guys comparing distortion figures and output levels between a $1600 and a $3600 sub? Shouldnt the JL be twice as good?

You are indeed missing something. A real comparison would be the street price of the F-113 ($2400) vs the PB-13 in piano gloss black ($1700), which is the standard finish on the F-113. But, this belongs in a shopper's forum discussion, not a performance/features discussion.

Again, below 20Hz, according to the CEA results for both subs, the F-113 is twice as "good" as the PB-13 in sealed mode in 1/2 the size for 40% more $$.

Actually, if price vs output is the only consideration, wouldn't Nousaine's numbers on the Epik Conquest suggest that what to buy is a no brainer, sight unseen and features be damned?

Bosso

mojomike

03-31-09, 12:09 PM

If you were following the thread, we were discussing below 20Hz: Not true. what we were discussing came about from the following post which specifies nothing about frequencies exclusively below 20hz:

So you are saying the PB 13 has lower distortion then all sealed subs?

I don't visit the site you've linked to, but match those figures you posted links to to Ilk's CEA results and I believe your point will evaporate.

The PB-13 in sealed mode exhibits high harmonics below 20Hz, even worse in the cylinder version, at 2M GP. It does a much better job in its 10Hz tune ported mode.

Bosso

Bosso, if you choose to consider my figures invalid because you choose not to view that particular site, there is no point in carrying on this discussion. The graphs nevertheless support my figures whether you view them or not.

You still haven't said why the distortion at 15hz would as or more important than the distortion at 30hz.

Ed Mullen

03-31-09, 01:37 PM

cschang

03-31-09, 01:56 PM

Find me a sealed subwoofer for $1500 which can match or exceed the PB13U in sealed mode when all performance variables are considered - not just one parameter viewed in isolation - and then we'll talk.
Ed, you might want to re-word this. While I think you are right, there isn't a $1500 sealed subwoofer that exceeds the PB13U in ALL performance variables, I don't think the PB13U exceeds ALL performance variables for all $1500 sealed subs as well. Then again, I guess we need to define the performance variables.

penngray

03-31-09, 01:57 PM

.... Find me a sealed subwoofer for $1500 which can match or exceed the PB13U in sealed mode when all performance variables are considered - not just one parameter viewed in isolation - and then we'll talk.

I thought everyone concluded that the HSU ULS-15 was better then the PB13U in sealed mode?

mojomike

03-31-09, 02:01 PM

I thought everyone concluded that the HSU ULS-15 was better then the PB13U in sealed mode?

The ULS-15 may very well be better than the PB13 in sealed mode, but how can everyone conclude that since not everyone has compared the two and there is no clear test data to show objectively what the ULS-15 can do.

goneten

03-31-09, 02:01 PM

cschang

03-31-09, 02:02 PM

I thought everyone concluded that the HSU ULS-15 was better then the PB13U in sealed mode?
No measurements as of yet. I think is sounds better than the Ultra, but not quite as good as F112 we had next to it.

penngray

03-31-09, 02:04 PM

The ULS-15 may very well be better than the PB13 in sealed mode, but how can everyone conclude that since not everyone has compared the two and there is no clear test data to show objectively what the ULS-15 can do.

Really, I thought there was lots of mesurements but I didn't follow along.

I didnt actually know it wasnt ruled the king of all sealed < $1500 subs, serious!

mojomike

03-31-09, 02:08 PM

I still find it strange that JL audio chose to employ a 2nd-order high pass filter on the Fathom. Had they left it out of the design then the roll off profile would have been less severe and the transfer function of a sealed room in particular would have benefited more.

Otherwise the design is an engineering marvel. A super driver (in excess of 3" peak to peak), a super powerful amp and an extremely well braced and rigid box. I mean, I don't think the driver would have been destroyed below resonance. The compliance of air would have helped in that regard just fine I think.

Anyways, please continue with the interesting discussion...;)

Regards,

It seems that JL chose to optimize the performance of it's sub in the audible range and the expense of deeper bass. It's probably not a bad decision considering the size of the box. What would have been very interesting would be choices via a switch between max output >20hz vs unfiltered deep response with a more gentle rolloff.

goneten

03-31-09, 02:08 PM

That Bag End sub in "way down deep" is still the best subwoofer in existance. Ever. People never gave it a chance.

Whatever.

Regards,

mojomike

03-31-09, 02:10 PM

Really, I thought there was lots of mesurements but I didn't follow along.

I didnt actually know it wasnt ruled the king of all sealed < $1500 subs, serious!

There are no stinkin' rules!:D

goneten

03-31-09, 02:12 PM

What would have been very interesting would be choices via a switch between max output >20hz vs unfiltered deep response with a more gentle rolloff.

You know, not to knock the Fathom as it's a brilliant little subwoofer (IMO) but I think, as you suggested above, that perhaps it would have been a smart design choice to offer a "max output/deep extension mode (in the form of a HP bypass switch) kind of like what some of the HSU models offer. That would have been cool.

Regards,

mojomike

03-31-09, 02:13 PM

Seriously, a comparison between the ULS-15 and the 15" Rythmik would make sense because of the similar size and pricing of the two.

cschang

03-31-09, 02:14 PM

It seems that JL chose to optimize the performance of it's sub in the audible range and the expense of deeper bass. It's probably not a bad decision considering the size of the box. What would have been very interesting would be choices via a switch between max output >20hz vs unfiltered deep response with a more gentle rolloff.
I am not so sure about that. Many think that employing filters affect sound quality, and in this example, I am not sure what would have been lost in the audible range if the filter was not there. Not disagreeing with you.....just thinking out loud.

goneten

03-31-09, 02:18 PM

Okay, so the Fathom has closer to 4" peak to peak travel. I think I would have removed that high pass filter.

Regards,

cschang

03-31-09, 02:20 PM

Seriously, a comparison between the ULS-15 and the 15" Rythmik would make sense because of the similar size and pricing of the two.
Agreed....but the pricing is not that similar. Depending on finishes, it is a $400-$500 difference. Percentage wise, that is on par with the PB13U vs F113(street price) difference.

mojomike

03-31-09, 02:21 PM

Okay, so the Fathom has closer to 4" peak to peak travel. I think I would have removed that high pass filter.

Regards,

I would like to have the option especially if I were using multiple subs.

cschang

03-31-09, 02:23 PM

That Bag End sub in "way down deep" is still the best subwoofer in existance. Ever. People never gave it a chance.

Whatever.

Regards,
Bag End subs are used in the sound stages that I have visited. I am sure that is worth some points. :)

Gelinas

03-31-09, 02:24 PM

While I cannot argue the merits of the pb13 in sealed mode versus the competition, it seems like this thread has began to strictly focus on the pb13 as a sealed sub.

This is far from the case. I think most owners have concluded that they prefer the sub's other tuning modes. I personally really like 15hz mode and 20hz mode. Not to mention the fact that this level of tunability is not very common among most commercial subwoofers.

sivadselim

03-31-09, 02:31 PM

The truth about the SVS PB-Ultra 13....He's a wife-beater.

mojomike

03-31-09, 02:46 PM

He's a wife-beater.

Hmm. That would explain the low WAF.

Ed Mullen

03-31-09, 03:21 PM

Ed, you might want to re-word this. While I think you are right, there isn't a $1500 sealed subwoofer that exceeds the PB13U in ALL performance variables, I don't think the PB13U exceeds ALL performance variables for all $1500 sealed subs as well. Then again, I guess we need to define the performance variables.

The comment stands, but you certainly interpreted it correctly. Just because a given subwoofer has higher THD-limited output than another does not automatically make it a better overall subwoofer. That is a myopic conclusion at best. Zoom out and look at the big picture and consider all performance variables before making a decision.

Of course that doesn't even touch on other non-performance variables like price, size/weight/footprint, finish options, appearance and design aesthetics, amp features, customer service, tech support, and warranty support. All of these items are important to customers too.

Enthusiasts seriously considering the PB13U are typically going to operate it in vented mode, and they accept the fact that its outstanding vented performance comes with a large size/weight/footprint. My only point is if they want to operate the PB13U in sealed mode for any reason, they certainly have that option, and the performance in sealed mode is the real deal - more so than many dedicated sealed offerings at/near the same price.

Of course the corollary is that someone looking for a dedicated sealed subwoofer will almost assuredly also be looking for a smaller/lighter cabinet, so they will tend to pass on the PB13U anyway (which is perfectly fine). They will also typically get less sheer performance, but that is a known trade-off they are willing to accept.

cschang

03-31-09, 03:30 PM

Just because a given subwoofer has higher THD-limited output than another does not automatically make it a better overall subwoofer. That is a myopic conclusion at best. Zoom out and look at the big picture and consider all performance variables before making a decision.
In 100% agreement, but that is what most focus on.

BTW..very much looking forward to your sealed offerings, especially if the F113 is/was your benchmark.

goneten

03-31-09, 03:55 PM

I have a feeling that the 16"er will be more than up to the challenge.

Regards,

cschang

03-31-09, 04:20 PM

I have a feeling that the 16"er will be more than up to the challenge.

Regards,
Are you just looking at THD limited output? :)

Hksvr4

03-31-09, 04:35 PM

This thread is making me dizzy.

gamelover360

03-31-09, 04:53 PM

I somehow started all this, so I figure I will chime in.....

My viewing is all Blu rays and gaming, No music.....

and my main concern a sub setup is that it hits you in the chest with powerful precision and plays low down very accurately and without distortion or boominess. I want hard pounding speed and articulation.

I will be acoustically treating my sealed room and using the SVS EQ-1 for sub calibration.

I am essentially down to these choices (and I don't think any of them are "bad":D)

1) Quad Ultra 13's
2) Quad USL-15's
3) Quad Klipsch THX Ultra 120's
4) Dual Seaton Submersives
5) Dual Jl F113's

My room is 2200 cubic feet, but I don't care if any of the options are "overkill", as I will have a bigger HT space down the road....and I also want multiple subs for improvement in Frequency response and headroom.

cschang

03-31-09, 05:04 PM

2200 cu ft sealed room? I am sure any one of those setups will make you VERY happy, and some of them might just as well blow up the room. I would also put in quad Rythmiks into the mix.

mojomike

03-31-09, 05:10 PM

In your modest-sized sealed room, I like the dual Submersive choice. The dual f113's are a waste of money. You can do better for way less. The quad 13Ultra's :eek: will blow your head clean off! Nothing wrong with the quad HSU's.

mojomike

03-31-09, 05:12 PM

Ditto for the quad Rythmiks. They are worth your consideration.

croseiv

03-31-09, 05:25 PM

The quad 13Ultra's :eek: will blow your head clean off! .

LOL!!!! Great way of putting it! Duals come pretty close to that.:p Yeah, the Fathom option just seems way overpriced.

cschang

03-31-09, 05:25 PM

I don't know if the quad Ultras would blow his head off rather than make it implode. :)

goneten

03-31-09, 05:42 PM

I want hard pounding speed and articulation.

"Speed" is not required from a subwoofer. If you need speed then a mid-woofer will be perfect for your needs but then there will be no bass extension. That would be unfortunate. However there is something else that does enter the equation which is rather important. Displacement. Lots of displacement. Have enough of it and you'll be able to reproduce whatever you want with all the "speed" inherent in the signal.

I promise.

There is no replacement for displacement. I'm feeling a bit of déjà vu right now...

Regards,

bfreedma

03-31-09, 05:50 PM

LOL!!!! Great way of putting it! Duals come pretty close to that.:p Yeah, the Fathom option just seems way overpriced.

Given that the OP isn't interested in music, the Fathom may not be the best choice, but I wouldn't couch it as overpriced. Let's abandon the discussion points regarding the F113 being 2X the cost of the PB-13 - one of the advantages of buying from a B&M store is the ability to negotiate price, which hopefully, everyone does. In real dollars the F113 should be 50% more expensive than the PB-13, and the gap drops if shipping is or ever becomes necessary for service.

All of the subs in the discussion are better than good (although I might drop the Klipsch into a lower category), so application and personal audio preferences will determine the best fit at the individual level. My listening habits are more tilted to music, and after auditioning a number of subs in my room, the F113 was a fairly clear winner. Size and WAF were also factors, but didn't trump any of the performance criteria in selection. I did borrow a friend's PB-13 and if my listening habits were mostly HT, I probably would have gone that route, but to my ears, the F113 was better in my room for music, and only a little behind the PB in HT output. At any reasonable listening level the HT difference was not a big enough factor to concern me.

All the chatter about performance at peak operating levels is, as others have mentioned, not really the best way to select a sub. Once you have gone through Darla and WOTW above reference to impress your friends and scare the dog, normal operating conditions make max numbers rather moot.

My advice to the OP would be to use the forum and contact vendors to see if they can point to owners of the ID subs who might be amenable to auditioning the products and use your ears from there. If isn't possible, take your best guess based on the forums dedicated to each of the subs - as said above, you probably won't be disappointed with any of the subs on your list.

goneten

03-31-09, 05:58 PM

All of the subs in the discussion are better than good (although I might drop the Klipsch into a lower category)...

I'm with you on that one.

Regards,

cschang

03-31-09, 05:58 PM

"Speed" is not required from a subwoofer. If you need speed then a mid-woofer will be perfect for your needs but then there will be no bass extension. That would be unfortunate. However there is something else that does enter the equation which is rather important. Displacement. Lots of displacement. Have enough of it and you'll be able to reproduce whatever you want with all the "speed" inherent in the signal.
"speed", IMO, is a term that I think some people use for fast decay times or lack of overhang, which also relates to articulation.

cschang

03-31-09, 06:10 PM

Oh. Okay, but the room will dominate as the primary resonating system and hence whatever "speed" you perceive is mainly influenced by the acoustics of the room, including "articulation and "fast decay times".

Regards,
No argument there....but two different subs, using the same room, then the sub is the biggest variable.

Ron Temple

03-31-09, 06:13 PM

Given that the OP isn't interested in music, the Fathom may not be the best choice, but I wouldn't couch it as overpriced. Let's abandon the discussion points regarding the F113 being 2X the cost of the PB-13 - one of the advantages of buying from a B&M store is the ability to negotiate price, which hopefully, everyone does. In real dollars the F113 should be 50% more expensive than the PC-13, and the gap drops if shipping is or ever becomes necessary for service.

All of the subs in the discussion are better than good (although I might drop the Klipsch into a lower category), so application and personal audio preferences will determine the best fit at the individual level. My listening habits are more tilted to music, and after auditioning a number of subs in my room, the F113 was a fairly clear winner. Size and WAF were also factors, but didn't trump any of the performance criteria in selection. I did borrow a friend's PB-13 and if my listening habits were mostly HT, I probably would have gone that route, but to my ears, the F113 was better in my room for music, and only a little behind the PB in HT output. At any reasonable listening level the HT difference was not a big enough factor to concern me.

All the chatter about performance at peak operating levels is, as others have mentioned, not really the best way to select a sub. Once you have gone through Darla and WOTW above reference to impress your friends and scare the dog, normal operating conditions make max numbers rather moot.

My advice to the OP would be to use the forum and contact vendors to see if they can point to owners of the ID subs who might be amenable to auditioning the products and use your ears from there. If isn't possible, take your best guess based on the forums dedicated to each of the subs - as said above, you probably won't be disappointed with any of the subs on your list.A good post...based on your criteria, the Fathom is a better solution. Cranking your rig is short term fun for most of us. It's great to know you have the headroom, but everything sounds better if played without strain on the system or your ears.

penngray

03-31-09, 06:17 PM

goneten

03-31-09, 06:18 PM

I'm insulted that eight MFW-15's weren't on that list. Eight MFW-15's would compete rather well against the quad configurations I would imagine.

Oh well, maybe next time...

Regards,

penngray

03-31-09, 06:21 PM

My advice to the OP would be to use the forum and contact vendors to see if they can point to owners of the ID subs who might be amenable to auditioning the products and use your ears from there. If isn't possible, take your best guess based on the forums dedicated to each of the subs - as said above, you probably won't be disappointed with any of the subs on your list.

Auditioning top end subs is a completely waste of time IMO, if they are not in your room its just pointless.

penngray

03-31-09, 06:22 PM

I'm insulted that dual MFW-15's weren't on that list. Oh well, maybe next time...

Regards,

hmmm...quad MFW-15s would be sweet!!!

BUT who knows if AV123 will even survive, no forum, online sales is down last time I checked.....no way I would touch that company these days and I have been a AV123 product owner.

goneten

03-31-09, 06:25 PM

Penngray, you might want to read my last post again. I have this nasty habit of editing my posts hundreds of times before I actually hit the reply button. Hopefully I wouldn't have edited this post...;)

Regards,

mustang90

03-31-09, 06:30 PM

Given that the OP isn't interested in music, the Fathom may not be the best choice, but I wouldn't couch it as overpriced. Let's abandon the discussion points regarding the F113 being 2X the cost of the PB-13 - one of the advantages of buying from a B&M store is the ability to negotiate price, which hopefully, everyone does. In real dollars the F113 should be 50% more expensive than the PC-13, and the gap drops if shipping is or ever becomes necessary for service.

All of the subs in the discussion are better than good (although I might drop the Klipsch into a lower category), so application and personal audio preferences will determine the best fit at the individual level. My listening habits are more tilted to music, and after auditioning a number of subs in my room, the F113 was a fairly clear winner. Size and WAF were also factors, but didn't trump any of the performance criteria in selection. I did borrow a friend's PB-13 and if my listening habits were mostly HT, I probably would have gone that route, but to my ears, the F113 was better in my room for music, and only a little behind the PB in HT output. At any reasonable listening level the HT difference was not a big enough factor to concern me.

All the chatter about performance at peak operating levels is, as others have mentioned, not really the best way to select a sub. Once you have gone through Darla and WOTW above reference to impress your friends and scare the dog, normal operating conditions make max numbers rather moot.

My advice to the OP would be to use the forum and contact vendors to see if they can point to owners of the ID subs who might be amenable to auditioning the products and use your ears from there. If isn't possible, take your best guess based on the forums dedicated to each of the subs - as said above, you probably won't be disappointed with any of the subs on your list.

excellent post!! to your ears, how would you describe the differences between the jl and the svs? i mostly listen to music, but the pricing of the jl seems way out of hand.

penngray

03-31-09, 06:30 PM

Penngray, you might want to read my last post again. I have this nasty habit of editing my posts hundreds of times before I actually hit the 'reply' button. Hopefully I wouldn't have edited this post...;)

Regards,

lmao, me too :D

penngray

03-31-09, 06:32 PM

excellent post!! to your ears, how would you describe the differences between the jl and the svs? i mostly listen to music, but the pricing of the jl seems way out of hand.

IF the JL price is out of your budget you should consider the HSU ULS-15 for music.

btw, the JL is worth the money its not smoke and mirrors at all.

cschang

03-31-09, 06:36 PM

btw, the JL is worth the money its not smoke and mirrors at all.
I don't think anybody implied that it was. There are definitely alternatives that cost much less, and give up little if any as far as sound quality is concerned, but you are definitely not going to get the same level of packaging.

mustang90

03-31-09, 06:37 PM

IF the JL price is out of your budget you should consider the HSU ULS-15 for music.

btw, the JL is worth the money its not smoke and mirrors at all.

i agree fully that the jl is a nice piece. more than anything, i think it is a strong performer mostly because of its ungodly amount of amp wattage. it seems that dual svs 13's would be a better buy only if space isn't a concern. but that is a whole other discussion.:)

thehun

03-31-09, 07:27 PM

That Bag End sub in "way down deep" is still the best subwoofer in existance. Ever. People never gave it a chance.

Whatever.

Regards,

If you're referring to the consumer version called "Infrasub" then there is a good reason why it faded away.
I remember about a decade ago how Tom V. of SVS[before he founded it] thrashed this sub based on his measurements on HTF as he continued to find a sub that measured truly well below 20hz that he would call a "sub". Later he started his own...............well you know the rest. ;)

The commercial Bag End subs are heavily used by the movie industry for mixing and monitoring, but I seriously doubt that those are the same models at all.

penngray

03-31-09, 07:28 PM

I don't think anybody implied that it was.....

....but the pricing of the jl seems way out of hand.

That to me is question the JL pricing. No big deal though.

penngray

03-31-09, 07:29 PM

i agree fully that the jl is a nice piece. more than anything, i think it is a strong performer mostly because of its ungodly amount of amp wattage. it seems that dual svs 13's would be a better buy only if space isn't a concern. but that is a whole other discussion.:)

Yep, I would go further that for the same money 4 DIY subs (24" cube boxes, 15" driver/2 PRs each box) is even a FAR superior system if tools/skills/time was not a concern but that is a whole other discussion again ;)

bfreedma

03-31-09, 07:51 PM

excellent post!! to your ears, how would you describe the differences between the jl and the svs? i mostly listen to music, but the pricing of the jl seems way out of hand.

Thanks

Having owned it for a while, I'm comfortable with the JL's price point. Beyond the basically perfect finish quality, the technical construction required to do what the F113 does at it's size seems to justify the cost. It's still amazing that so much sound emanates from that (relatively) small enclosure. A local HT vendor had one broken open for some reason recently - WOW the construction inside is incredible and the driver is massive.

After received three positive comments on the post, I will now ensure the end of those by trying to describe the differences. All further comments are my opinions and are based on my setup in my room. YMMV

The integration and balance of the F113 with my speakers was better than the SVS and just sounded more natural. In particular, the F113 produced a certain percussion on electric bass on some notes that I hadn't heard outside of a live event and wasn't able to reproduce with any of the other subs tested. Not the volume of the note, but something tactile along with the audio. There also was less overhang so everything seemed tighter, which was particularly noticeable on tracks where the drummer is using two bass drums, or multiple drummers are performing. The PB13 was a bit more visceral at extreme volume and in the bottom octave, but I don't listen to much organ music, so the impact below 25Hz or so wasn't that important. The F113 also had more impact in the mid bass than the PB13, probably the reason for the palpable percussive effect on certain bass notes.

The F113 by definition can't have port noise issues, although I doubt the PB-13 would exhibit any in real world conditions either. At least you won't have to wonder.....

Another thing I really liked about the F113 was how solid and subtle is can be at low volume levels. It's fun to knock the sheet rock off the walls once in a while, but most of my listening is at moderate levels and the F113 does a beautiful job of filling the bottom end out without drawing attention to itself. I wasn't able to get the PB-13 to be as subtle at low levels - it was either a little too much or not quite enough until I reached -25db or better on the amp. I'm not saying the PB can't do this, just that in the time available, I couldn't get it there.

TheFactor

03-31-09, 08:04 PM

No measurements as of yet. I think is sounds better than the Ultra, but not quite as good as F112 we had next to it.

Measurements I think have more weight than "Ones" personal oppinion on how something sounds . But im far from being as well versed as most here technically speaking. But I have learned that measurements tell it like it is . Just my 2 cents :)

cschang

03-31-09, 08:07 PM

Measurements I think have more weight than "Ones" personal oppinion on how something sounds . But im far from being as well versed as most here technicaly speaking. But I have learned that measurements tell it like it is . Just my 2 cents :)
That's a fair statement, especially if you know how to interpret all the measurements....most people don't. Until you compare subs, most really don't understand the differences.

What subs have you compared or heard?

TheFactor

03-31-09, 08:14 PM

That's a fair statement, especially if you know how to interpret all the measurements....most people don't. Until you compare subs, most really don't understand the differences.

What subs have you compared or heard?

This is true, I've heard a Digm servo 15 my friend owns, Some of the newer velodyne models, a older DPS 10 and a SVS PB12NSD .

cschang

03-31-09, 08:19 PM

This is true, I've heard a Digm servo 15 my friend owns, Some of the newer velodyne models, a older DPS 10 and a SVS PB12NSD .
And what measurements did you find to "tell it like it is"?

TheFactor

03-31-09, 08:33 PM

And what measurements did you find to "tell it like it is"?

Listen im not trying to get in a pissing match with you and btw I know your question was bated but I answered it out of courtesy . My point was what one person hears might and normally is different than what someone else might. Further more what "you" might find pleasing or to have better sound qualities in a sub might not be what others will find . Its like comparing two cars, one might have a faster 60' and another might be faster in the 1/8 mile but the other one could pull away in 1/4 mile with a faster trap speed. I can go on but I think you get my point, when your comparing a mid to upper class sub with another some people will favor some sound qualities and not find others as important like for music vs HT . So to answer your last questions no I did not take measurements or carry my spl meter in my pocket or did I have intentions of posting my thoughts on a thread which one was better than the other :)

cschang

03-31-09, 08:39 PM

TheFactor

03-31-09, 08:44 PM

Not at all.....I was trying to understand your correlation between measurements and what you heard.....just like you stated. Now you are saying you don't have measurements. So it seems you were just going after my subjective impression. Correct?

Your thoughts on subjectiveness is totally understood.

Thanks for understanding :) and I actually wasn't going after anything. I was invited over to a friends to watch a movie and not for a review . The Others were some I owned and some were I listened to when I was buying my Paradigm studio speakers and was just killing time .

Ron Temple

03-31-09, 09:13 PM

Audio is more like wine than cars. A fine wine can make an impression that lasts for years and it's all dependent on timing, the ambiance, the meal (if any) and your state of mind. Audio is the same way. It's situational. If you've reached a certain level of performance, there are too many factors involved to name one model as "the best or even one of". All anyone can say is "I like this one the best of any I've heard, in this room, with this equipment, with this media". You've just got to realize that all that might change in a different environment and especially for different people.

TheFactor

03-31-09, 09:54 PM

bossobass

03-31-09, 10:50 PM

I was rolling my eyes because you chose to focus on the one aspect of the PB13U's sealed performance profile which is bettered by the far more expensive F113. And you chose to ignore the fact that the PB13U has a flatter and more extended upper frequency response, a lower-Q wider knee, lower group delay, virtually no output compression, and a much shallower roll-off profile.

These are all the attributes of a true/classic sealed subwoofer for which you have been a consistent and vocal champion for years - and instead of recognizing and praising this achievement in the PB13U, you instead chose to make a patently untrue statement that plugging the ports on a vented subwoofer can never result in a properly designed sealed subwoofer. That is perhaps the most personally disappointing aspect of our entire exchange - you're better than that Dave and we both know it. Give credit where it's due and I submit that you should look at the results, and not how they were achieved.

Sure, the F113 has higher CEA 2010 scores than the PB13U in sealed mode. It also costs almost 2X more.

And yes I'm well aware the PB13U in 10 Hz vented mode plays louder and has lower distortion than the sealed mode - not a surprise to anyone. It also beats the F113 from 16-40 Hz - again not a surprise. But that should not detract from the fact that the PB13U in sealed mode is a darn good performer both on an absolute scale and for the price.

While we're splitting hairs over CEA2010 output, the F113 isn't "twice as good" as the PB13U in sealed mode. Here are the numbers and the percent advantage for the F113:

Frequency/PB13U Sealed/F113/% Advantage

12.5 Hz/87/91.5/68%
16 Hz/93.8/96.7/40%
20 Hz/100.2/101.3/14%
25 Hz/105.3/105.5/2%
32 Hz/109/109.8/9%
40 Hz/113/114/12%
50 Hz/113.4/116.5/43%
63 Hz/113.1/116.9/55%
80 Hz/112.5/116.2/53%

And while the F113 can clearly play louder at every test frequency, that advantage will not be fully realized <20 Hz because of its much steeper roll-off profile. You would need to add in enough EQ to overcome the 2nd order high pass to achieve the same level of extension to ULFs as the PB13U can by virtue of its shallower roll-off profile. The addition of this EQ will consume additional amp power, and will result in higher woofer excursion, and this will alter the in-room distortion profile.

Furthermore, we are looking at both subwoofers at the extreme limits, and at lower drive levels both have very low distortion. Additional headroom can always be obtained by adding additional subwoofers. The last time I checked you were running (count 'em) eight (8) 15" sealed subwoofers in your system. Surely then of all enthusiasts, you appreciate the benefits of running multiple sealed subwoofers to keep the woofers operating within their clean/linear excursion limits, at which point the one performance advantage the F113 holds over the PB13U in sealed mode evaporates.

Using the numbers you posted, which represent the max clean output:
http://i469.photobucket.com/albums/rr55/Bosobass/pb.jpg

Hmmm, it looks to me like the blue trace has the best potential for soft knee, shallower roll off and most clean output in the process, and that would be applying cut, not boost. Is there some mistake in the posted CEA numbers?

Find me a sealed subwoofer for $1500 which can match or exceed the PB13U in sealed mode when all performance variables are considered - not just one parameter viewed in isolation - and then we'll talk.
http://i469.photobucket.com/albums/rr55/Bosobass/IMG_5885.jpg

Let me run down the list for you: It plays louder, is cleaner, goes lower, has better transient response, can have any and every knee your little heart desires, is built better, looks better, and runs cooler...than 2-PB-13s in sealed mode, while sitting in 1/4 the footprint, and you can buy as many as you need for less money each than 2-PB-13s.

Are there any performance variables I've missed?

Frankly, and all fun aside, the 'denigrate' and 'disappointing aspect' comments are uncalled for. I wouldn't mind if you took the time to search this and other forums before you posted uncalled for nonsense. We've been through this before over the years and I would have thought you'd moved forward.

From other threads in a quick search:
Hi Ed,

Please pass on my congrats to your company principals on the PB-13. Very, very well done.

Bosso

Also, before anyone pukes about the little PB Ultra comment in the attachment, it's just a little fun. I've said many times that the PB-13 is a remarkable achievement in the ported sub category, DIY or otherwise.

Bosso

I've said it before and I'll repeat it here: the PB Ultra 13 is a great subwoofer. Hats off to TV for excellence.

Bosso

And there are many more similar posts by me, none of which denigrate anything or anyone.

Basically, the PB13 is not a sealed subwoofer. If your best effort is to accuse me of some trumped up silliness or to belittle me into saying something else that's contrary to my opinions on the subject, not gonna happen. You, of all people, should know that.

Bosso

ransac

03-31-09, 11:00 PM

Audio is more like wine than cars. A fine wine can make an impression that lasts for years and it's all dependent on timing, the ambiance, the meal (if any) and your state of mind.You trying to fill in for Jeff (thebland)?:)

mojomike

03-31-09, 11:04 PM

Basically, the PB13 is not a sealed subwoofer.

Bosso

Do you mean that it leaks air with the ports plugged?

gchuva

04-01-09, 12:09 AM

allredp

04-01-09, 12:18 AM

http://i469.photobucket.com/albums/rr55/Bosobass/IMG_5885.jpg

Let me run down the list for you: It plays louder, is cleaner, goes lower, has better transient response, can have any and every knee your little heart desires, is built better, looks better, and runs cooler...than 2-PB-13s in sealed mode, while sitting in 1/4 the footprint, and you can buy as many as you need for less money each than 2-PB-13s.

Bosso

OK, what is this?

I have a feeling I'm going to feel dumb for asking this question, but there it is...

cschang

04-01-09, 12:33 AM

OK, what is this?

I have a feeling I'm going to feel dumb for asking this question, but there it is...
You can learn more about it here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1109708

cjv998

04-01-09, 12:49 AM

No measurements as of yet. I think is sounds better than the Ultra, but not quite as good as F112 we had next to it.

Care to go into more detail on the Ultra vs. the ULS-15? I'm looking into getting one of the two, and it'd be nice to get an opinion from someone who's had them in the same room.

(Feel free to take this to PM's if you want to keep it out of here, since it may be getting off topic).

gamelover360

04-01-09, 01:17 AM

KyleLee

04-01-09, 01:46 AM

Epik Conquest at $1600....

goneten

04-01-09, 05:11 AM

I remember about a decade ago how Tom V. of SVS[before he founded it] thrashed this sub based on his measurements on HTF as he continued to find a sub that measured truly well below 20hz that he would call a "sub".

Tom V was clueless. The Bag End Infrasub could defy physics and reach down to 8 Hz......at inaudible levels !

Regards,

goneten

04-01-09, 05:21 AM

Let me run down the list for you: It plays louder, is cleaner, goes lower, has better transient response, can have any and every knee your little heart desires, is built better, looks better, and runs cooler...than 2-PB-13s in sealed mode, while sitting in 1/4 the footprint, and you can buy as many as you need for less money each than 2-PB-13s.

Not to speak for Ed (or to take away from your design) but I think he was referring to commercial designs in particular when he made that comment. Of course I could be wrong.

Regards,

mojomike

04-01-09, 07:07 AM

Well,
I am basically down to

1) quad Ultra 13's
2) Quad Rythmik 15se's
2) Dual submersives
3) Quad F113's

I am worried about a ported design and not being as clear and articulate. I know it is just people's subjective observations, (and some observations say there is no difference), but there may be something to it.

I want big and powerful for sure....and I want to be able to impress the dinner party guests. But mostly I want a sub that will perform the best at normal listening levels with BR only. Noraml for me is like -25 on the volume dial (0 being reference). I can't help but lean towards a sealed design (especially going quads). Is the Submersive sealed? I don't think so....

The Submersive is most definitely sealed with dual opposed 15" woofers. I had picked the dual Submersives as your best choice because it's classic sealed rolloff characteristics would most likely compliment the room gain characteristics of your room. It would make for an in-room deep, flat frequency response without boominess.

bfreedma

04-01-09, 09:19 AM

I have been looking into the myth of the Fathom street price, and 150% of the PB-13, not the PC-13 seems to be the truth. I can always be PM'd if I am wrong.

Typo on my part - original post updated to 150% of PB-13

gchuva

04-01-09, 09:44 AM

I can't even get to that level without buying multiple subs.

Nuance

04-01-09, 10:03 AM

Well,
I am basically down to

1) quad Ultra 13's
2) Quad Rythmik 15se's
2) Dual submersives
3) Quad F113's

I am worried about a ported design and not being as clear and articulate. I know it is just people's subjective observations, (and some observations say there is no difference), but there may be something to it.

I want big and powerful for sure....and I want to be able to impress the dinner party guests. But mostly I want a sub that will perform the best at normal listening levels with BR only. Noraml for me is like -25 on the volume dial (0 being reference). I can't help but lean towards a sealed design (especially going quads). Is the Submersive sealed? I don't think so....

Yes, it's sealed. If I was down to those choices, and based on you leaning towards a sealed design, it'd be dual SubMersive's. If you wanted to spend under $2000 and didn't mind a ported design, I'd go with dual PB13 Ultra's.

As has been said before, there are really no bad subs on your revised list. Chose based on your needs and requirements and I am sure you'll be extremely happy.

J_Palmer_Cass

04-01-09, 10:26 AM

Tom V was clueless. The Bag End Infrasub could defy physics and reach down to 8 Hz......at inaudible levels !

Regards,

8 Hz playback at levels that could neither be heard nor felt!;)

penngray

04-01-09, 10:29 AM

Well,
I am basically down to

1) quad Ultra 13's
2) Quad Rythmik 15se's
2) Dual submersives
3) Quad F113's

I am worried about a ported design and not being as clear and articulate. I know it is just people's subjective observations, (and some observations say there is no difference), but there may be something to it.

I want big and powerful for sure....and I want to be able to impress the dinner party guests. But mostly I want a sub that will perform the best at normal listening levels with BR only. Noraml for me is like -25 on the volume dial (0 being reference). I can't help but lean towards a sealed design (especially going quads). Is the Submersive sealed? I don't think so....

Why don't you have the Qaud ULS-15s on your list?

As for impressing the dinner party guests...unless they are AVS members or the serious basshead crowd one or two of any of those choices will impress them

gamelover360

04-01-09, 10:58 AM

MKtheater

04-01-09, 10:58 AM

My vote goes for the submersives. I have a 2200 cubic foot sealed room and I love the way sealed subs sound in it. I use 8 18 inch sealed subs so headroom or overkill does not exist in my vocabulary. Due to room gain I get a flat response down to 5 hz without any EQ or filters. The problem you have is a good one and you can't go wrong with any of your choices.

penngray

04-01-09, 11:04 AM

Let me phrase this question directly (and I appreciate the wonderful feedback from people so far....choosing subs "for life" is a touch decision, and one I am undertaking)....

I am looking for the best performance with BR and gaming and have around $12,000 to spend on subs, and it must be at least 2 subs (for better frequency response, etc.)

I am between:

1) quad Ultra 13's
2) quad F113's
3) Dual F212's
4) Quad HSU UL15's
5) Quad Rhythmik servo sub special edition's
6) Quad THx klipsh 120's
7) Dual Seaton submersives
8) Quad Seaton submersives

IF the performance is the same, then I care about price, but I am willing to spend all $12,000 to get better performance.

I want it all.....great sounding powerful subs at every volume level and frequency.

8) Quad Seaton submersives
8) Quad Seaton submersives
8) Quad Seaton submersives
8) Quad Seaton submersives
8) Quad Seaton submersives
8) Quad Seaton submersives
8) Quad Seaton submersives

Mark deserves everyone's business IMO. :D :D :D

OF course Quad of anything in that list is going to be just crazy sick high end quality so throw a dart blind folded and enjoy it all

btw, for $12K I would build a monster custom IB array with displayment that is out of this world.

mojomike

04-01-09, 11:07 AM

Personally I would drop the JL's off your list if you want depth and useable power <20hz. For what you are willing to shell out you might as well go deep. In your environment the Submersives would probably be the best for getting you there.

Gelinas

04-01-09, 11:36 AM

Have you left room in your budget for structural reinforcement?
I think the amount of bass you have in mind could do some damage to a home

MIkeDuke

04-01-09, 11:42 AM

I guess it's safe for me to poke my face in here and give another vote for the SubMersive(s). I only have a single in a 1000cf room and I love it. IMO it really brings out the best in movies. 4 would be quite the experience I think.

Nuance

04-01-09, 11:44 AM

I hope your loudspeakers can keep up with your subwoofers. If not, I'd recommend going with quad Seaton SubMersives and then picking up his Catalysts for speakers all the way around.

penngray

04-01-09, 11:44 AM

Have you left room in your budget for structural reinforcement?
I think the amount of bass you have in mind could do some damage to a home

blah, he isnt even close to the displacement I have in my house yet ;)

Have you seen TheEar's wall of sound or Mk's 8 sealed subs.....This is a small sub solution for some of us :D

penngray

04-01-09, 11:44 AM

I hope your loudspeakers can keep up with your subwoofers.

Yep, that was my big problem :eek:

gamelover360

04-01-09, 11:59 AM

8) Quad Seaton submersives
8) Quad Seaton submersives
8) Quad Seaton submersives
8) Quad Seaton submersives
8) Quad Seaton submersives
8) Quad Seaton submersives
8) Quad Seaton submersives

Mark deserves everyone's business IMO. :D :D :D

OF course Quad of anything in that list is going to be just crazy sick high end quality so throw a dart blind folded and enjoy it all

btw, for $12K I would build a monster custom IB array with displayment that is out of this world.

I am favoring the Submersives due to Mark's reputation. But I have a question since the submersives shine based upon a lot of compelling subjective opinions (which are worth something in a forum like this)....

Is the submersive such a monster due to Mark's craftsmanship and the "sum of the parts" engineering? I would imaging that some of the other subs on my list have "higher end" engineered parts?... But Mark just knows a lot about how to build a subwoofer, so he can take off the shelf parts and construct subs that are extremely well designed...

I guess I should maybe consider taking the quad F113's off the list, due to the fact I can get lower with other setups. But I have just read so many GLOWING Pro reviews of the F113's

But what about dual F212's? Do they shine or what? they look impressive.....but the Submersive uses dual 15 inch drivers whereas the F212 uses dual 12 inchers.

I am definitley leaning towards sealed subs...due to a tighter sound (this is just based upon comments I have seen).

MIkeDuke

04-01-09, 12:00 PM

gamelover360

04-01-09, 12:04 PM

Secrets of HT loved the F212 (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/subwoofers-products-menu-column1-41/479-a-secrets-subwoofer-review.html?start=2)....link to the test bench. Best distortion numbers they have ever come across.

MKtheater

04-01-09, 12:07 PM

I hope your loudspeakers can keep up with your subwoofers. If not, I'd recommend going with quad Seaton SubMersives and then picking up his Catalysts for speakers all the way around.

This is so true, it seems many here think that a great movie experience is just about a great sub. I built so many subs just to keep up with my speakers. They are almost as efficient now. Make sure you have great or capable mains to put things in balance.

cschang

04-01-09, 12:12 PM

2200 cu ft sealed room....are we losing sight of this? :)

MIkeDuke

04-01-09, 12:21 PM

2200 cu ft sealed room....are we losing sight of this? :)

I was looking for the room size. With that size room there is really no need for 4 SubMersives. Two of them would be great in a room that size. And maybe even the Sparks as mains.

MKtheater

04-01-09, 12:26 PM

Curtis,
you know me, I have a 2200 cubic foot room as well and one of my sealed subs would hit reference levels in the back corner, but with multiples in all 4 corners(2 each) the amount of power, dynamics, and the best of all flat frequency makes a huge difference. Then again, I have real cinema speakers in there as well. Top Gun last night on bluray was awesome. My friend who worked on those navy carriers felt like he was back there again. He even told me to turn it up for more realistic levels(over reference) and it was amazing. He just looked at me with a big grin on his face.

chengbin

04-01-09, 12:26 PM

gamelover360

04-01-09, 12:32 PM

2200 cu ft sealed room....are we losing sight of this? :)

This setup is for life...I am not an upgradaholic. For various reasons this is it for me. The projector I will someday upgrade, but not the audio section.

I will also have a bigger house someday with a bigger HT room. Admittedly Quad submersives may be uneccessary, but duals with Mark's catalyst speakers may fit within my over all speaker/subwoofer budget.

cschang

04-01-09, 12:38 PM

penngray

04-01-09, 12:47 PM

I am favoring the Submersives due to Mark's reputation. But I have a question since the submersives shine based upon a lot of compelling subjective opinions (which are worth something in a forum like this)....

Is the submersive such a monster due to Mark's craftsmanship and the "sum of the parts" engineering? I would imaging that some of the other subs on my list have "higher end" engineered parts?... But Mark just knows a lot about how to build a subwoofer, so he can take off the shelf parts and construct subs that are extremely well designed...

I guess I should maybe consider taking the quad F113's off the list, due to the fact I can get lower with other setups. But I have just read so many GLOWING Pro reviews of the F113's

But what about dual F212's? Do they shine or what? they look impressive.....but the Submersive uses dual 15 inch drivers whereas the F212 uses dual 12 inchers.

I am definitley leaning towards sealed subs...due to a tighter sound (this is just based upon comments I have seen).

The JL products probably have the best engineering/manufacturing facilities behind them but you are paying $$$ for all that too. THere is no question that if $$$ is not a factor whatsoever then multiple JL subs is fine. Im not sure about the lowest end (ie below 15Hz) though and for me that is a must, it could be different for you.

The support for Mark's subs is obvious, its my opinion that Mr Seaton is building something that meets the demands of many of us DIYers. He is building it beyond what Comercial offerings do and he sellls it at a cost that has little market or supply chain costs that is associated with all others listed. Meaning the $$$ you put towards Seatons products goes into the performance of the product itself, not the finish, not the flash, not the marketing, not the distribution just the pure performance of the product. I love that kind of effecient $$$ spending. EDIT: Subjectivily speaking of course! :D

Again, remember any choice above is going to be insane in that small room! I should know my HT room is around 2600 cuft and I have 4 15" subs with more displacement then some of the choices above and I can not even crank them past 60%, room gain is big in smaller rooms ;)

J_Palmer_Cass

04-01-09, 01:23 PM

penngray

04-01-09, 01:27 PM

My friend who worked on those navy carriers felt like he was back there again. He even told me to turn it up for more realistic levels(over reference) and it was amazing. He just looked at me with a big grin on his face

Yes, the "Big Grin" I know that look from friends all too often....Outside of my own hair standing on end during playback sometimes I love when friends have no idea how good something can be :D

The guy should definitely get the quads, spend the money.....do not question yourself down the road and if it actually is too much, sell two of them.

poolratt

04-01-09, 01:46 PM

penngray

04-01-09, 01:52 PM

Hey Guys, Don't forget about Epik subs. Am I missing a requirement here that these subs cant meet? I have two Towers (discontinued) in a 8000 cu ft room and all I can say is wow! I havn't seen much #s on the new line yet but they look impressive. Ricky

Sealed subs only.

btw, I love the epic subs, my DIY subs are built based on the look of Epik subs.

MIkeDuke

04-01-09, 01:58 PM

...do not question yourself down the road and if it actually is too much, sell two of them.

I have to say that I do agree with this. I try my best to limit regret when it comes to my purchases. So far, it has worked out that way for me. Even if it takes me a long time to save up for something that I really want.

gamelover360

04-01-09, 02:23 PM

Sealed subs only.

btw, I love the epic subs, my DIY subs are built based on the look of Epik subs.

Not available in 230 volt (us here in Europe).

Also, just added Quad Earthquake MKVI15's to the list. I just got a great price quote for 4 of them shipped. Here is a review (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/subwoofers-products-menu-column1-41/598-earthquake-supernova-mkvi-subwoofer.html).

bfreedma

04-01-09, 02:33 PM

The JLs get fantastic reviews because it is an UNBELIEVABLE small subwoofer that delivered incredible performance. Since you don't care about size, the other options are much better. Oh BTW, reviewers never heard the Submersive and other fantastic ID subwoofers, and therefore their expectations are "lower".

For a sealed 2200 cubic room, get the dual submersives and be done with it. 4 is ridiculous in that room. I suggest buying 2 first and try them out. And by some miracle you think that's not enough, buy 2 more.

That the reviewers have "never heard the Submersive and other fantastic ID subwoofers, and therefore their expectations are "lower". is a huge and I suspect, unsupportable assumption, as many ID subs were available during the F113 review timeframes. You may find that other subs are "much better", but that's a subjective opinion and is really only relevant in the environment in which you auditioned.

As stated before, I've had a number of the subs (not all) in this discussion in my room and for music, the F113 was clearly superior. As the OP is focused on Blu-Ray, it might not be the right fit for him, but the blanket statements above don't reflect the reality of the sub/room/individual preference variables.

gamelover360

04-01-09, 02:36 PM

Also, I hear arguments about how subs are tested. For instance how THD is tested, how far away the sub is when tested, etc..See post below from another thread...

It refers to the review of the Earthquake MKVI I posted...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hohmann View Post
Hi Guys
I thought you could take a look at this review
Hope it clarify some of the myth.
Thanks

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/subwo...subwoofer.html

All distortion measurements were made within an 80 kHz bandwidth.

At 20 Hz and 100 dB output, THD+N was a little less than 6%, which is terrific performance.

At 40 Hz, distortion dropped to about 2%. Again, this is very good performance.
Note all of his tests are measured in room, at 1 foot. Since 1 foot = 0.3 meters, converting that to 2 meters will require almost 3 doubling. 3 doubling is 2.4 meters, and 18dB lost. Let's say it loses 15dB. So the actual performance at 20Hz is about 85dB in room at 6% THD.
chengbin is offline Report Post Reply With Quote

So where is the best source for no BS perfomance numbers. Are certain pro reviewers adhering to accepted standards than others? Independent reviewers, etc. Thanks.

KyleLee

04-01-09, 02:39 PM

Not available in 230 volt (us here in Europe).

Also, just added Quad Earthquake MKVI15's to the list. I just got a great price quote for 4 of them shipped. Here is a review (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/subwoofers-products-menu-column1-41/598-earthquake-supernova-mkvi-subwoofer.html).

its ported/passive same difference.... 4th order. e.g your impedance and woofer behavior is going to be the same as a ported system.

now dont get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with ported subs, but if you think there is magical pixy dust that makes a subwoofer more "articulate" when you seal a sub, you might want to steer clear of passive radiators too.

:)

btw, make sure to allocate a good amount of $ for dampening and or bass traps... even if you have to ditch a sub or two to afford fixing the room, its probably well worth it.

MKtheater

04-01-09, 02:39 PM

Hey, have you ever tried to playback the Terminator-2 atomic bomb sequence at realistic levels?

I would not want an atomic bomb at realistic levels :eek:, Remember realistic levels for the guys on the carrier are high but they wear ear protection so not as loud as a jet engine could get. Besides, the realism had to do more with feeling the impact.

Curtis,
No, I am not normal, not even close.

OP,
If you go with quad's you won't have to ever upgrade when going into a bigger room, unless of course something else comes out by then :D. There is always something coming out.

My top choices for commercial would be
Danley
Seaton
JTR
SVS
HSU
Epik
eD
Jl if size is important.
The top three choices are use to the pro audio world where high spl's and big rooms are common. Combine that with top shelf sound quality and you have a winner.

gamelover360

04-01-09, 02:52 PM

its ported/passive same difference.... 4th order. e.g your impedance and woofer behavior is going to be the same as a ported system.

now dont get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with ported subs, but if you think there is magical pixy dust that makes a subwoofer more "articulate" when you seal a sub, you might want to steer clear of passive radiators too.

:)

btw, make sure to allocate a good amount of $ for dampening and or bass traps... even if you have to ditch a sub or two to afford fixing the room, its probably well worth it.

Will be treating the room aucoustically.

bossobass

04-01-09, 02:58 PM

Not to speak for Ed (or to take away from your design) but I think he was referring to commercial designs in particular when he made that comment. Of course I could be wrong.

Regards,

How many would you like to buy?

Problem solved. :)

Yeah yeah....but do you consider yourself normal? :)

He seems pretty normal to me. :D

I am favoring the Submersives due to Mark's reputation. But I have a question since the submersives shine based upon a lot of compelling subjective opinions (which are worth something in a forum like this)....

Is the submersive such a monster due to Mark's craftsmanship and the "sum of the parts" engineering? I would imaging that some of the other subs on my list have "higher end" engineered parts?... But Mark just knows a lot about how to build a subwoofer, so he can take off the shelf parts and construct subs that are extremely well designed...

I guess I should maybe consider taking the quad F113's off the list, due to the fact I can get lower with other setups. But I have just read so many GLOWING Pro reviews of the F113's

But what about dual F212's? Do they shine or what? they look impressive.....but the Submersive uses dual 15 inch drivers whereas the F212 uses dual 12 inchers.

I am definitley leaning towards sealed subs...due to a tighter sound (this is just based upon comments I have seen).

I'm familiar with the power plant in the Submersive from a number of years back, and I've spent an hour or 2 messing with sealed subs, so Seaton occasionally pinged me during the Submersive design/test phases so that I at least learned this about him:

He is a tweak demon. He misses very little in the way of detail, and that which he might have missed, he soon discovers, focusses on and addresses. Given that his roots include apprenticeship under Tom Danley, and that he is as anal as it gets where a particular subwoofer design is concerned...

I think his design goals fill a void in the market, but most would call me biased. Bottom line for me is that it's a darned safe bet that any Seaton product will be as advertised. The Submersive isn't a monster, it's just a very well thought out and executed product for a good price, backed by a very smart and dedicated young man.

Chalk up another vote for dual Submersives. Hard to beat it in 2K Ft^3. Quads aren't necessary, IMO, but, OTOH, it can be fun on occasion and would definitely prevent upgraditis.

Bosso

notoriousmatty

04-01-09, 03:03 PM

Hey Guys, Don't forget about Epik subs. Am I missing a requirement here that these subs cant meet? I have two Towers (discontinued:() in a 8000 cu ft room and all I can say is wow! I havn't seen much #s on the new line yet but they look impressive. Ricky

I had a new dragon from their new line. It was not impressive to me. I returned it. With that being said it was a sealed sub and did not give me the output I needed, which was my fault for buying a sealed sub for 100% ht use anyway. I think im going to order an ultra here soon.

gamelover360

04-01-09, 03:11 PM

How the heck do you check out Danley subs? I cannot find their homepage?

Danley sound labs looks like a church website....

Edit: nevermind....got it

lwj81

04-01-09, 03:31 PM

How the heck do you check out Danley subs? I cannot find their homepage?

Danley sound labs looks like a church website....

Edit: nevermind....got it

Check out the THSPUD thread by RMK. He replaced quad fathoms with this and said he has never experienced tactile bass like this before.Musically,It's every bit as clean and accurate as the F113's.

MKtheater

04-01-09, 03:39 PM

I would still get the submersive due to its sealed design. How many just depends on how loud you want it and the frequency response in the room you will get with multiples. I like sealed subs because of the way they couple with room gain for Ultra low frequencies, who doesn't like to feel uneasy after watching a movie, again, I am not normal. If I had to do it over again I would get Danley SH-50's(passive) or Catalysts(active) with a minimum of 4 Submersives or the Danley TH-50(maybe 2). Someday.

Warpdrv

04-01-09, 03:47 PM

The Submersives get my vote..... just remember, when you have that much bass is a room that small, you better think about your projector getting shaken.... better make sure you lock that baby down...

penngray

04-01-09, 03:50 PM

As stated before, I've had a number of the subs (not all) in this discussion in my room and for music, the F113 was clearly superior. As the OP is focused on Blu-Ray, it might not be the right fit for him, but the blanket statements above don't reflect the reality of the sub/room/individual preference variables.

and your opinion matters because you love music on your JL? ;) Kind of pointless to this discussion.

If we want to argue the subjective, then CraigSub and all his peers did a big shootout with music as one of the parameters, do you know what the end results of that one was? Several subs rated higher for music then the JL ;) You have been outvoted :D

The sub shootout
http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11

spyboy

04-01-09, 04:06 PM

penngray

04-01-09, 04:08 PM

I would simply point out that Craig Chase had to swap out the subs in his "shootout" so that they were considered while each one was in the same position (in his room). This doesn't make for a sqeaky clean comparison since hearing memory is notoriously poor.

Yes, that is why I posted "subjective"

I was just pointing out that we do not need to have people posting "Like this sub because It sounds better to me" ;) We have enough of those subjective opinions to last a life time :D

MKtheater

04-01-09, 04:09 PM

The Submersives get my vote..... just remember, when you have that much bass is a room that small, you better think about your projector getting shaken.... better make sure you lock that baby down...

I have never had an issue with my projector or screen moving on me. I guess I have been lucky. The wall to wall foam really helped with all rattles and you hear nothing but bass.

Gamelover360, what speakers are you using again? If your budget is as big as you say then do it right the first time. When you experience huge dynamics with great sound quality it makes a big difference.

cschang

04-01-09, 04:09 PM

If we want to argue the subjective, then CraigSub and all his peers did a big shootout with music as one of the parameters, do you know what the end results of that one was? Several subs rated higher for music then the JL ;)
The issue is that you have no access to those reviewers to ask them about their preferences or their historic reviews. Yet, to most folks that have heard the JL's, and have posted thoughts on the boards, think at least a bit differently.

cschang

04-01-09, 04:11 PM

I was just pointing out that we do not need to have people posting "Like this sub because It sounds better to me" ;) We have enough of those subjective opinions to last a life time :D
OK Penn...so why do you like Seaton subs?

cschang

04-01-09, 04:12 PM

mojomike

04-01-09, 04:22 PM

.

Chalk up another vote for dual Submersives. Hard to beat it in 2K Ft^3. Quads aren't necessary, IMO, but, OTOH, it can be fun on occasion and would definitely prevent upgraditis.

Bosso

Bosso, how come you haven't offered to sell the OP a couple of subs of your own design? I'm 100% serious here. They seem like they would sound awesome. I particularly like the control flexibilty including selectable Q, HP slope, and "tune", not to mention the 2700w of power on hand. They should be able to outperform the Submersive and the OP seems to have the budget allowed for a pair of them.

Are you ready to go public with them?

gamelover360

04-01-09, 04:29 PM

I have never had an issue with my projector or screen moving on me. I guess I have been lucky. The wall to wall foam really helped with all rattles and you hear nothing but bass.

Gamelover360, what speakers are you using again? If your budget is as big as you say then do it right the first time. When you experience huge dynamics with great sound quality it makes a big difference.

Either the Klipsch THX Ultra 2's or maybe Seaton catalyst. The biggest thing is that it is hard to get info on Seaton products that don't come from owners. I am not knocking subjective owner reviews, because the "objective" pro review can be influenced by many things as well. It is somewhat eerie to only see such glowing praise for Seaton products.....and they are very affordable...relatively speaking. The submersive hasn't been in any sub shootouts or professionally reviewed that I know of (correct me if I am wrong)...so I am going on subjective owner info....albeit stellar across the board. Mark appears to be a highly skilled DIY'er sub guru that is VERY passionate about bass, and I think he works out of his own space. It is like having a custom sub built just for you. Which is great, but there is also a certain amount of security that comes with larger manufacturers. ( I am not hinting that Mark doesn't build great quality stuff and stand behind it....just thinking out loud about smaller independents versus larger operations)

Also, I am in Sweden, so if their were product issues then that would require me shipping them back to the US...not a cheap proposition. But I guess that applies to may of the internet direct manufacturers I am considering.

The upside of quad F113's is that their is a JL audio distributor here in Sweden, so I could just drive the sub to him and he would sort it out.

Being across an ocean makes you think about stuff like shipping costs if something would go awry, that's all.

And as far as quad F113's not being quite powerful enough for HT, I think they would meet my impact requirements just fine. But this is just based upon all the awards they have won and their unbelieveable reviews.

Anyone have any experience with the Earthquake MKVI supernova?

goneten

04-01-09, 04:31 PM

How many would you like to buy?

Bah, that's not a problem for me. I'll just call Craigsub...

Regards,

lalakersfan34

04-01-09, 04:35 PM

I have never had an issue with my projector or screen moving on me.....

Guess you need to turn it up a bit ;) :D

bfreedma

04-01-09, 04:37 PM

and your opinion matters because you love music on your JL? ;) Kind of pointless to this discussion.

If we want to argue the subjective, then CraigSub and all his peers did a big shootout with music as one of the parameters, do you know what the end results of that one was? Several subs rated higher for music then the JL ;) You have been outvoted :D

The sub shootout
http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11

And if I was buying a sub for Craig in his room, that would matter. The OP was looking specifically for individual subjective opinions, not a democratic vote based on totaling everyone's opinion. I'm sure Craig is a great guy, but his tests in his room don't have any significant meaning to me, a point I've made repeatedly about individual preference and space.

To your other references denigrating those who discuss what various components "sound like", that's seems an odd line to draw in an audio forum - even one with the word Science in the acronym.

Rather than just blathering on endlessly about Audio Science and hard measurements, how about trying to add something useful to this discussion.

Mark Seaton

04-01-09, 04:50 PM

Either the Klipsch THX Ultra 2's or maybe Seaton catalyst. The biggest thing is that it is hard to get info on Seaton products that don't come from owners. I am not knocking subjective owner reviews, because the "objective" pro review can be influenced by many things as well. It is somewhat eerie to only see such glowing praise for Seaton products.....and they are very affordable...relatively speaking. The submersive hasn't been in any sub shootouts or professionally reviewed that I know of (correct me if I am wrong)...so I am going on subjective owner info....albeit stellar across the board. Mark appears to be a highly skilled DIY'er sub guru that is VERY passionate about bass, and I think he works out of his own space. It is like having a custom sub built just for you. Which is great, but there is also a certain amount of security that comes with larger manufacturers. ( I am not hinting that Mark doesn't build great quality stuff and stand behind it....just thinking out loud about smaller independents versus larger operations)

Also, I am in Sweden, so if their were product issues then that would require me shipping them back to the US...not a cheap proposition. But I guess that applies to may of the internet direct manufacturers I am considering.

Hi gamelover,

While it's been hinted at plenty, let's remember that most all of the subwoofers under discussion are very capable performers with plenty of happy owners. It is really a matter of finding a good fit, and this isn't often a one-size-fits-all solution.

As a quick note about support with the SubMersive, unless the parts are physically damaged from being punctured, it's a rare case that anything could damage the drivers, which is likely the case for many of the subwoofers under discussion here. The amplifier is easily removed with a screwdriver, and there is zero soldering required to replace the amplifier or driver. The amplifier is under 10 lbs to ship, making it easy to handle and to expedite if absolutely needed, while the amp was designed with much more rugged abuse in mind than will be seen in a home theater.

Obviously servicing an product purchased direct will never be quite as simple as dropping the sub at a local dealer or calling them to come over, but most have give this some thought in making such tasks as simple as practical.

gamelover360

04-01-09, 05:13 PM

Hi gamelover,

While it's been hinted at plenty, let's remember that most all of the subwoofers under discussion are very capable performers with plenty of happy owners. It is really a matter of finding a good fit, and this isn't often a one-size-fits-all solution.

As a quick note about support with the SubMersive, unless the parts are physically damaged from being punctured, it's a rare case that anything could damage the drivers, which is likely the case for many of the subwoofers under discussion here. The amplifier is easily removed with a screwdriver, and there is zero soldering required to replace the amplifier or driver. The amplifier is under 10 lbs to ship, making it easy to handle and to expedite if absolutely needed, while the amp was designed with much more rugged abuse in mind than will be seen in a home theater.

Obviously servicing an product purchased direct will never be quite as simple as dropping the sub at a local dealer or calling them to come over, but most have give this some thought in making such tasks as simple as practical.

Thanks for the input Mark.

MKtheater

04-01-09, 05:30 PM

I owned the Klipsch THX ultra 2. Great speakers for cinema. Having said that there are 3 systems I owned I liked better than them and others as well which had the same experience. The Catalysts would be in another level, probably 2-3 levels above them. In levels I mean clarity, dynamics, spl, smoothness, and huge soundstage. I have never heard them but going off opinions and reviews from people that have the same opinions as me about other speakers that we have both owned.

Ed Mullen

04-01-09, 06:11 PM

Using the numbers you posted, which represent the max clean output. Hmmm, it looks to me like the blue trace has the best potential for soft knee, shallower roll off and most clean output in the process, and that would be applying cut, not boost. Is there some mistake in the posted CEA numbers?

There is no mistake, but maximum clean output capability and frequency response are entirely unrelated, and you are inexplicably trying to equate the two.

Yes, the F113 can play louder than the PB13U in sealed mode at each test frequency. It also has a 4th order roll-off below 22 Hz. If you want a flat in-room FR from this subwoofer you will need to - at a minimum - overcome the 2nd order high pass with EQ. The application of this EQ will require additional amp power and will increase woofer excursion which in turn will affect distortion levels.

Regardless, you're the resident champion/supporter of a flat in-room FR to ULFs. Realistically, this can only be obtained from a sealed subwoofer which does not employ a high pass. After all, you are the one who developed the experiment to prove that a 20 Hz 2nd order high pass killed the ability of participants to perceive ULFs in your WOTW lightning strike demo scene. I would think that the F113 would be eliminated from your consideration/recommendation on that point alone.

From your Raven literature:

"The anechoic response of the Raven, as configured in this particular room and measured as shown above, is (+0/-3dB) 17-200Hz. Since, unlike all other commercial subwoofers, the Raven needs no high pass filter protection, its roll off is 2nd order (12dB/octave) to 5Hz, which, as can be seen in the graph, works well with typical room gain."

Maybe instead of eating some Raven, you should be eating some crow.

Let me run down the list for you: It plays louder, is cleaner, goes lower, has better transient response, can have any and every knee your little heart desires, is built better, looks better, and runs cooler...than 2-PB-13s in sealed mode, while sitting in 1/4 the footprint, and you can buy as many as you need for less money each than 2-PB-13s.

Are there any performance variables I've missed?

It's a beatiful creation and I'm sure it performs like it looks. Major props, Dave.

Aside from being a shameless plug of the Raven, I think you missed the obvious - it's a DIY creation, and you are not a commercial OEM in the business of selling subwoofers, and you don't have a website where people can order the Raven and have it built and shipped to them.

And frankly judging by the high value content in that product, if you think you can manufacture and sell that subwoofer for $1500 in even a low production volume (forget mass production) and with a reasonable turn-around time and still make enough profit to stay in business, you've got a lot to learn about running a business. Ask Mark Seaton how much profit he makes on each Submersive - now selling for over $2K - I'll tell you right now it's not much.

Frankly, and all fun aside, the 'denigrate' and 'disappointing aspect' comments are uncalled for. I wouldn't mind if you took the time to search this and other forums before you posted uncalled for nonsense. We've been through this before over the years and I would have thought you'd moved forward.

From other threads in a quick search:

And there are many more similar posts by me, none of which denigrate anything or anyone.

Basically, the PB13 is not a sealed subwoofer. If your best effort is to accuse me of some trumped up silliness or to belittle me into saying something else that's contrary to my opinions on the subject, not gonna happen. You, of all people, should know that.

Your initial comment about how plugging the ports on a vented sub doesn't make a properly designed sealed subwoofer was a cheap shot, and you will never convince me otherwise.

I didn't take your comment sitting down and so here we are - still arguing. Aside from my taking exception to that comment, we generally get along swimmingly, and I have all the respect for you, your designs, and your knowledge and I've made that abundantly clear in the past.

The PB13U's main mission in life is a bass reflex sub - I've never denied that and most customers operate it that way. But plugging all the ports does make the PB13U a sealed subwoofer in every objective acoustical sense, and furthermore we took great pains during the development phase to ensure it would measure well in sealed mode. Frankly, we took a page right out of your playbook and deep sixed the high pass and I would think that would be grounds for a compliment from you, but you chose a different path and well here we are. :)

Nuance

04-01-09, 06:24 PM

penngray

04-01-09, 06:26 PM

Rather than just blathering on endlessly about Audio Science and hard measurements, how about trying to add something useful to this discussion.

Like how something sounds to me? Yeah, thats useful in a technical discussion :rolleyes:

I will blather endlessly until ignorance is gone.....we will be here awhile ;)

Yosh70

04-01-09, 06:46 PM

Like how something sounds to me? Yeah, thats useful in a technical discussion :rolleyes:

I will blather endlessly until ignorance is gone.....we will be here awhile ;)

Originally Posted by bfreedma

Rather than just blathering on endlessly about Audio Science and hard measurements, how about trying to add something useful to this discussion.

Lol, thats quite the inane comment.....I would like to think audio science and useful measurements are quite essential in a discussion about subwoofers.

But I see blathering is not one of your strong points as 24 posts in 5 years is kind of weak.....kept spilling coke on the keyboard?:p

sivadselim

04-01-09, 06:52 PM

I will blather endlessly until ignorance is gone.....we will be here awhile ;)
http://media.rei.com/media/ee/57cb54be-69c2-46e2-af6b-8ed380010dea.jpg

bfreedma

04-01-09, 07:40 PM

Like how something sounds to me? Yeah, thats useful in a technical discussion :rolleyes:

I will blather endlessly until ignorance is gone.....we will be here awhile ;)

What technical discussion have you been participating in? I just reread the entire thread and your posts have absolutely no scientific data, objective numerical comparisons, or anything else that might be confused as information.

The posts are all entirely subjective and seem to center around your affinity to Seaton products, something you have been asked (by another poster) to explain. Still waiting on your presentation of hard facts that support your position.

bfreedma

04-01-09, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by bfreedma

Rather than just blathering on endlessly about Audio Science and hard measurements, how about trying to add something useful to this discussion.

Lol, thats quite the inane comment.....I would like to think audio science and useful measurements are quite essential in a discussion about subwoofers.

But I see blathering is not one of your strong points as 24 posts in 5 years is kind of weak.....kept spilling coke on the keyboard?:p

I'm not suggesting that the measurements aren't important. The comment was directed at someone who keeps talking about using hard measurements to define sound quality, yet hasn't actually produced anything of substance to discuss.

Sorry my posting frequency doesn't pass your test. I've only recently returned to the forum, having had other things keeping me busy. Has a quota system been instituted while I was away....

BTW, if you feel blathering isn't my strong point, then we might say that math might not be yours. 10/2005 - 4/2009 is 3.5 years, not 5:)

penngray

04-01-09, 08:01 PM

What technical discussion have you been participating in? I just reviewed the entire thread and your posts have absolutely no scientific data, objective numerical comparisons, or anything else that might be confused as information.

The posts are all entirely subjective and seem to center around your affinity to Seaton products, something you have been asked (by another poster) to explain. Still waiting on your scientific presentation of hard facts that support your position.

Enough data is here for you to entertain yourself? What is missing that I would ever need to add.

I also clarified why I believe Seaton's product is the best choice, another post clarified the same opinion. Heck, I said it was subjective but I know he isnt making much of a profit therefore his product has a HIGH PROBABILITY of beating ALL others in terms of $$$/performance here. That is a calculated guess and nothing subjective!

All you did was tote the simplistic "I love my JL for music"...I posted that another subjective review with MORE credentials showing its not as good as you think it is ;) to point out the fact that subjective posts are meaningless in the end. You could have validated your opinion but you won't or can't.

Gotta love rehashing any debate, just because people refuse to validate their subjective/simplistic opinion.

bfreedma

04-01-09, 08:16 PM

Enough data is here for you to entertain yourself? What is missing that I would ever need to add.

I also clarified why I believe Seaton's product is the best choice, another post clarified the same opinion. Heck, I said it was subjective but I know he isnt making much of a profit therefore his product has a HIGH PROBABILITY of beating ALL others in terms of $$$/performance here. That is a calculated guess and nothing subjective!

All you did was tote the simplistic "I love my JL for music"...I posted that another subjective review with MORE credentials showing its not as good as you think it is ;) to point out the fact that subjective posts are meaningless in the end. You could have validated your opinion but you won't or can't.

Gotta love rehashing any debate, just because people refuse to validate their subjective/simplistic opinion.

LOL - you just aren't going to answer the question - I get it.

And thanks for pointing me to another opinion (subjective) and using it as "proof" that the JL "isn't as good as you think it is".

As to validating my opinion, I was asked specifically in post 90: "to your ears, how would you describe the differences between the jl and the svs? i mostly listen to music, but the pricing of the jl seems way out of hand." to which I responded with specifics in post 102 in more detail than "I love my JL for music"

penngray

04-01-09, 09:21 PM

LOL - you just aren't going to answer the question - I get it.

And thanks for pointing me to another opinion (subjective) and using it as "proof" that the JL "isn't as good as you think it is".

As to validating my opinion, I was asked specifically in post 90: "to your ears, how would you describe the differences between the jl and the svs? i mostly listen to music, but the pricing of the jl seems way out of hand." to which I responded with specifics in post 102 in more detail than "I love my JL for music"

I didnt know you had a question that needed answering. If you are wondering about what measurements I will post, I do not have any nor do I have an opinion that any of these subs are bad so I do not need to validate anything. Plus All my subs in my house are DIY and far superior to anything here :D

I simply posted that Seaton's product has the biggest $$$/performance based on what I know about him and his company. Im not the only one that knows that, look at the support in this thread from what I think is the who's who of the AVS community. Impressive if you ask me :D

We can drop the subjective back and forth all together now, no need to waste thread time on it. You have every right to post whatever you want just like my posting of Craigsub's rankings.

RMK!

04-01-09, 09:26 PM

Ask Mark Seaton how much profit he makes on each Submersive - now selling for over $2K - I'll tell you right now it's not much.

Yeah ... you tell him Ed! and Mark dosen't even have the HUGE salary of a Product Development / Customer Service guy to deal with:p;).

mojomike

04-01-09, 09:33 PM

...Or those seven-figure AIG-style bonuses.:D

2100

04-01-09, 10:46 PM

I would not want an atomic bomb at realistic levels :eek:, Remember realistic levels for the guys on the carrier are high but they wear ear protection so not as loud as a jet engine could get. Besides, the realism had to do more with feeling the impact.

They come in all freqs. You can be shaken by/feel lower midrange/midrange freqs as well. (ever been to a percussive performance?)

Can't resist : :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcFWP_TvNjM

I have been doing homework for a ULF sub (operating it < 32Hz here), checked all the above names + DIY (RE/JL Audio)and lotsa calculations, ref to Ikka numbers etc. The PC-13U is pretty attractive esp with the low shipping to my country.
It doesn't help that the best value amp that can be gotten locally is the Tapco J-2500 and it still costs usd630. :eek:

mayhem13

04-01-09, 10:57 PM

notoriousmatty

04-01-09, 11:01 PM

bossobass

04-02-09, 12:41 AM

There is no mistake, but maximum clean output capability and frequency response are entirely unrelated, and you are inexplicably trying to equate the two.

Yes, the F113 can play louder than the PB13U in sealed mode at each test frequency. It also has a 4th order roll-off below 22 Hz. If you want a flat in-room FR from this subwoofer you will need to - at a minimum - overcome the 2nd order high pass with EQ. The application of this EQ will require additional amp power and will increase woofer excursion which in turn will affect distortion levels.

Regardless, you're the resident champion/supporter of a flat in-room FR to ULFs. Realistically, this can only be obtained from a sealed subwoofer which does not employ a high pass. After all, you are the one who developed the experiment to prove that a 20 Hz 2nd order high pass killed the ability of participants to perceive ULFs in your WOTW lightning strike demo scene. I would think that the F113 would be eliminated from your consideration/recommendation on that point alone.

From your Raven literature:

"The anechoic response of the Raven, as configured in this particular room and measured as shown above, is (+0/-3dB) 17-200Hz. Since, unlike all other commercial subwoofers, the Raven needs no high pass filter protection, its roll off is 2nd order (12dB/octave) to 5Hz, which, as can be seen in the graph, works well with typical room gain."

Maybe instead of eating some Raven, you should be eating some crow.

I don't know what you guys are eating over there at SVS, but maybe you should try a fast until your comprehension skills return.

To be brutally frank, both examples are rather weak representations of a sealed sub, given that when the genre began we had yet to send a monkey into space.

The JL has a 2nd order HP. Yeah, I got that. It also employs a limiter that has kicked in by max clean output. That's 2 strikes, but look what happens as you operate the sub near it's max clean output. Still look like a 4th order roll off?

Yes, The PB13 in sealed mode has a low Q, non-HP, non-limiter anechoic roll off. Congratulations, someone over there has finally paid some attention to exactly the information they've spent years arguing with me about. The trouble is that the FR doesn't remain stable at high levels. The harmonic distortion is unacceptably high.

This is borne out in the CEA numbers as well as the sine sweep results.

This gives you 2 choices. A) Operate the PB-13 sealed at lower levels. B) Eliminate 'clean' from the description.

These are both single driver sealed subs. Neither of them is in a price range where you should have excuses attached at reference levels in a small to medium sized room. There's no chance I'm buying that they will be operated at low levels in actual use. At high levels of playback, though I dislike the limiter in the JL, it will shape the response to other than 4th order.

The PB may have a flatter response, but it just doesn't cut the mustard at what I think you call 'spirited' playback levels, in sealed mode. In ported modes, it is an exceptional subwoofer that shows TV's acumen as a 4th order designer. In sealed mode it's a yawn. To equal the JLs output at 10Hz, it gives 10 times the HD, mostly 3HD.

It's a beatiful creation and I'm sure it performs like it looks. Major props, Dave.

Aside from being a shameless plug of the Raven, I think you missed the obvious - it's a DIY creation, and you are not a commercial OEM in the business of selling subwoofers, and you don't have a website where people can order the Raven and have it built and shipped to them.

And frankly judging by the high value content in that product, if you think you can manufacture and sell that subwoofer for $1500 in even a low production volume (forget mass production) and with a reasonable turn-around time and still make enough profit to stay in business, you've got a lot to learn about running a business. Ask Mark Seaton how much profit he makes on each Submersive - now selling for over $2K - I'll tell you right now it's not much.

It may have been a shameless plug, but you have to admit you walked me right into it. To correct some points:

First, if you read what I posted, I said the Raven sells for less than 2 PB-13s. I said 2 because it will outperform 2 PB-13s in sealed mode. Easily. In every category.

Second, where are you selling the PB-13 in gloss black for $1500? I see $1700 on your site.

Third, I've owned a business that has made a profit every year for 34 years. In fact, Sunday is my 34th anniversary, and gifts and cards will be accepted. I've owned a second business that's made a profit every year since 1990. Neither of them sells anything from a website. Over the decades, I've created one heck of a rolodex. Some of the parts and methods involved in my subs might surprise you and yours. My point is that I probably wouldn't be as hasty to send me off to business school if I were in your shoes.

Your initial comment about how plugging the ports on a vented sub doesn't make a properly designed sealed subwoofer was a cheap shot, and you will never convince me otherwise.

I didn't take your comment sitting down and so here we are - still arguing. Aside from my taking exception to that comment, we generally get along swimmingly, and I have all the respect for you, your designs, and your knowledge and I've made that abundantly clear in the past.

FWIW, the comment was not a cheap shot. I'm not the cheap shot type, but I'm also not the shy type. I'd certainly admit it otherwise. And, you're well aware of the respect I've always shown you, and that's not something I hand out to trick or treaters on Halloween. It's well deserved. You've consistently been the benchmark for integrity and in your contributions to the art.

The PB13U's main mission in life is a bass reflex sub - I've never denied that and most customers operate it that way. But plugging all the ports does make the PB13U a sealed subwoofer in every objective acoustical sense, and furthermore we took great pains during the development phase to ensure it would measure well in sealed mode. Frankly, we took a page right out of your playbook and deep sixed the high pass and I would think that would be grounds for a compliment from you, but you chose a different path and well here we are. :)

And I've repeatedly conceded that, as a 4th order sub, it is at the top of its game. My hat's off, and has been off since I became aware of it. We only disagree with the sealed part of it, which I've never chosen to bring up until this thread. My statement stands that you can't take a properly designed ported sub, close the ports and have a properly designed sealed sub. A version of one, yes. Otherwise, I'd install a pipe in my subs and tell people to unplug it if they prefer a great ported sub. I'll bet this year's salary that when the new SVS sealed subs come to market, you won't be comparing the PB-13 in sealed mode to them.

Bosso

Nuke61

04-02-09, 01:37 AM

The PB may have a flatter response, but it just doesn't cut the mustard at what I think you call 'spirited' playback levels, in sealed mode. In ported modes, it is an exceptional subwoofer that shows TV's acumen as a 4th order designer. In sealed mode it's a yawn. To equal the JLs output at 10Hz, it gives 10 times the HD, mostly 3HD.

While the output may be lower than the JL, does that mean it does not function as a sealed sub when operated in that mode?

MKtheater

04-02-09, 01:43 AM

They come in all freqs. You can be shaken by/feel lower midrange/midrange freqs as well. (ever been to a percussive performance?)

Can't resist : :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcFWP_TvNjM

I have been doing homework for a ULF sub (operating it < 32Hz here), checked all the above names + DIY (RE/JL Audio)and lotsa calculations, ref to Ikka numbers etc. The PC-13U is pretty attractive esp with the low shipping to my country.
It doesn't help that the best value amp that can be gotten locally is the Tapco J-2500 and it still costs usd630. :eek:

I have been to live percussive performances. Many. I only wish a loudspeaker can reproduce the real thing. ;). I know what midbass is and what lower bass is. My room was built for mostly movies or cinematic events. The differences between 40 hz and 15-19 hz are substantial. The ULF are slow and creates and different sensation all together. I even have shakers in my seats that only work well from 20-50 hz. When my hair stands up and my body feels uneasy I know it is not the shakers(they give a nice glut rub). The hair standing up is from massive spl and the uneasy is from high spl and ULF(less than 20 hz). Just my experience.

This thread is getting way to personal, I recommend the submersives for their design goal(matches the op's room) and the designer, comes from a very good background. Just a hunch I guess.

When I mentioned Top Gun and the jets it was what really happened. I have a friend who worked on a navy air craft carrier and just loved watching the jets take off and land from above the flight deck. He used to go up above just to watch. I put the movie at reference levels and told me to turn it up so he could feel the jets even more like how he did from many feet away with ear protection. I turned it up and he said that was much better as he could feel the jets much better. That is all.

mojomike

04-02-09, 06:25 AM

Bosso, I used to think you were a somewhat smart guy. Things change.:rolleyes:

penngray

04-02-09, 07:33 AM

Round 1 goes to Ed Mullen.

But don't count Bosso out....headbutted maybe, but he'll be back!

Although i'm not an SVS Fanboy, as an all around performer, it has nice balance of extension and output vs cost.

If i had zero carpentry skills and no tools, i'd probobly buy the PB-13 as well.

While the output may be lower than the JL, does that mean it does not function as a sealed sub when operated in that mode?

Everyone has to know that Bosso loves the PB13, he raved about it for months when it came out. Seriously, its not a question here about its ported performance. Its an incredible ported sub and I suspect a very nice sealed sub. Its also cool that it can do both very well.

The debate about Sealed is the same with any of the subs and the point of reference is different between each person. Bosso, point of reference I think is pretty simple "How does the sub perform at max levels?" Test show the Sealed PB13 doesnt do well down low at MAX levels vs something like the JL at the same levels. That is it....nothing more.

If people never care about max levels that is cool but we atleast have to set a certain point of reference so that we are debating apples vs apples.

Ed Mullen

04-02-09, 09:15 AM

To be brutally frank, both examples are rather weak representations of a sealed sub, given that when the genre began we had yet to send a monkey into space.

Gee, if you think the F113 and PB13U are weak representations of sealed OEM offerings, I'd hate to see your opinion on all the rest of the sealed subs on the market. IMO, the only model that does everything right is the Submersive - all the others either use a high pass, suffer from excessive output compression (which is almost unavoidable in a small box), and have very low output capability <30 Hz.

The JL has a 2nd order HP. Yeah, I got that. It also employs a limiter that has kicked in by max clean output. That's 2 strikes, but look what happens as you operate the sub near it's max clean output. Still look like a 4th order roll off?

At the limits the F113 exhibits significant output compression from the limiter and the FR changes dramatically.

You can't seriously be suggesting that the F113 should always be operated beyond its clean/linear limits such that the limiter is continuously compressing output and altering the shape of the knee just to obtain a different looking FR curve? Please.

Unless the user is deliberately overdriving the subwoofer (which is never advised), the FR will remain intact - and that is a flat response to 22 Hz and a 4th order roll-off below that frequency.

Yes, The PB13 in sealed mode has a low Q, non-HP, non-limiter anechoic roll off. Congratulations, someone over there has finally paid some attention to exactly the information they've spent years arguing with me about. The trouble is that the FR doesn't remain stable at high levels. The harmonic distortion is unacceptably high. This is borne out in the CEA numbers as well as the sine sweep results. This gives you 2 choices. A) Operate the PB-13 sealed at lower levels. B) Eliminate 'clean' from the description.

You are incorrect about the FR. It remains exceptionally stable at high levels - the PB13U in sealed mode exhibits virtually no output compression whatsover - even at the highest sweep level.

This almost complete lack of output compression is virtually unheard with other OEM offerings, as they use a much smaller enclosure relative to the woofer diameter and the air spring takes its toll.

High THD at the highest sweep levels I'll give you. Despite a lack of output compression, the woofer is being pushed past its linear excursion limits at the deepest frequencies and the highest sweep levels. If given my druthers, I'll take high THD over massive output compression any day, though.

Regardless, I agree that no subwoofer should operated beyond its clean/linear limits. Run one of your single 15" Tumult subs up to its limits and it won't perform any better down deep. There is a very good reason you run eight (8) 15" sealed subwoofers, and that is to keep the woofers all operating within their clean/linear limits.

So preach what you practice and don't act like running the subwoofer at lower levels to keep it clean is necessarily a design flaw. All sealed subwoofers get dirty down deep at their limits unless severely castrated by a limiter. Again, I'll take a linear power response and higher THD any day over massive amounts of compression, and ideally I'll accept neither and just operate the subwoofer within its clean/linear limits. And at that point, the uncompressed/clean FR is what really counts, and that's where the PB13U in sealed mode shines.

These are both single driver sealed subs. Neither of them is in a price range where you should have excuses attached at reference levels in a small to medium sized room. There's no chance I'm buying that they will be operated at low levels in actual use. At high levels of playback, though I dislike the limiter in the JL, it will shape the response to other than 4th order.

The PB may have a flatter response, but it just doesn't cut the mustard at what I think you call 'spirited' playback levels, in sealed mode. In ported modes, it is an exceptional subwoofer that shows TV's acumen as a 4th order designer. In sealed mode it's a yawn. To equal the JLs output at 10Hz, it gives 10 times the HD, mostly 3HD.

Massive output in sealed mode is not the forte of the PB13U. With that said, it's not far behind the much more expensive F113 and it's a bunch better than most of the other single driver sealed subwoofers in its price range.

As the OEM rep, I would never recommend operating the PB13U in sealed mode in a large room at high playback levels - the vented modes are better for that type of application. In a smaller room (say 1500-2000 ft^3), the PB13U can play quite loud in sealed mode and still remain within its clean/linear limits and also will measure flat to <10 Hz by taking advantage of room gain.

Of course the user can also use the 15 Hz vented mode, and if the FR shows an excessive rising response due to room gain, the Room Gain Comp control can be engaged and the user can cascade up to three 1st order filters over the native FR to tame the peak. When used in this manner, the 15 Hz tune will also measure flat in-room to ~12 Hz and has much higher clean output than sealed mode.

I have mixed feeling about the 10 Hz mode. In a smaller room it can/will measure flat to ~10 Hz and the anechoic FR does take advantage of room gain without a rising in-room response. But with that said, I feel the subwoofer is underported in this tune and there is too much potential for port noise, which I find more offensive than high THD. At this point, I'd take sealed mode over the 10 Hz tune if the room was sufficiently small to keep the sub operating clean at the desired playback level.

It may have been a shameless plug, but you have to admit you walked me right into it. To correct some points:

First, if you read what I posted, I said the Raven sells for less than 2 PB-13s. I said 2 because it will outperform 2 PB-13s in sealed mode. Easily. In every category.

Second, where are you selling the PB-13 in gloss black for $1500? I see $1700 on your site.

Third, I've owned a business that has made a profit every year for 34 years. In fact, Sunday is my 34th anniversary, and gifts and cards will be accepted. I've owned a second business that's made a profit every year since 1990. Neither of them sells anything from a website. Over the decades, I've created one heck of a rolodex. Some of the parts and methods involved in my subs might surprise you and yours. My point is that I probably wouldn't be as hasty to send me off to business school if I were in your shoes.

Congratulations on your sucessful business endeavors and I apologize for that hasty characterization. I did interpret your post as suggesting you would be selling the Raven for ~$1500 and I didn't think that would be possible - hence the comment about the questionable business model. Now I see that you are selling it for probably ~$3000 (my guess - I haven't confirmed) and that makes much more sense given its features and content.

Regardless, its a very hot looking subwoofer and I'd love to see some outdoor sine sweeps and CEA 2010 data at 2M GP - I'm sure it will be a benchmark setting product. Very classy.

FWIW, the comment was not a cheap shot. I'm not the cheap shot type, but I'm also not the shy type. I'd certainly admit it otherwise. And, you're well aware of the respect I've always shown you, and that's not something I hand out to trick or treaters on Halloween. It's well deserved. You've consistently been the benchmark for integrity and in your contributions to the art.

And I've repeatedly conceded that, as a 4th order sub, it is at the top of its game. My hat's off, and has been off since I became aware of it. We only disagree with the sealed part of it, which I've never chosen to bring up until this thread. My statement stands that you can't take a properly designed ported sub, close the ports and have a properly designed sealed sub. A version of one, yes. Otherwise, I'd install a pipe in my subs and tell people to unplug it if they prefer a great ported sub. I'll bet this year's salary that when the new SVS sealed subs come to market, you won't be comparing the PB-13 in sealed mode to them.

Thanks for that. Installing a port in a Raven would indeed make it a vented subwoofer. That cannot be denied any more than the assertion that plugging the ports on a vented subwoofer makes it a sealed subwoofer. Both are undeniable truths.

It's how well the subwoofer measures and performs in that converted mode which really matters. There are sealed subs which would perform poorly when vented, and there are vented subs which would perform poorly when sealed. I just happen to not count the PB13U among the latter, and I think its objective test data in sealed mode certainly supports my position. No, it's not perfect, but its darn competitive compared to other sealed OEM offerings at/near the same price.

And sorry to lower your expectations, but if I could get that type of performance (low-Q, 30 Hz corner, 2nd order roll-off, no output compression, >100 dB @ 20 Hz) from a 17-18" cube with a single 13.5" woofer and a 1000W plate amp, I'd be one happy product development manager. But we both know that the small cabinet will take its toll, and there will be inevitable performance concessions in exchange for a much smaller/lighter cabinet, most likely in the area of output compression. We will not be high passing these new sealed models, though - the low-Q wide knee and a the 2nd order roll-off will be design features of our higher level sealed subs.

Nuance

04-02-09, 09:33 AM

Boy did this thread get off track. Perhaps Ed and Bosso should start a new thread regarding what truly makes a sealed subwoofer a sealed subwoofer?

goneten

04-02-09, 11:01 AM

We will not be high passing these new sealed models, though - the low-Q wide knee and a the 2nd order roll-off will be design features of our higher level sealed subs.

I can imagine that the woofers used in the sealed models will have a nice bump in linear excursion compared to their ported counterparts. The question, of course, is how much more......Ed ?.....;)

Regards,

chengbin

04-02-09, 11:59 AM

I can imagine that the woofers used in the sealed models will have a nice bump in linear excursion compared to their ported counterparts. The question, of course, is how much more......Ed ?.....;)

Regards,

The Ultra 13 has a 3'' excursion, how can you add more???

goneten

04-02-09, 02:17 PM

The Ultra 13 has a 3'' excursion, how can you add more???

3" excursion ? Well that's great. The JL has closer to 4" excursion. What about that ? What about 5" excursion ? :)

Seriously, all I'm saying is that it would make sense to use an even more robust and powerful driver for an SVS sealed only design. Otherwise why even bring a sealed model to market when you can just use the PB13-Ultra in sealed mode ? Makes no sense.

Regards,

cschang

04-02-09, 02:22 PM

Seriously, all I'm saying is that it would make sense to use an even more robust and powerful driver for an SVS sealed only design. Otherwise why even bring a sealed model to market when you can just use the PB13-Ultra in sealed mode ? Makes no sense.

Well, there is the size issue. Smaller enclosures are less costly to ship/store. I am also betting there are sonic differences.

brandonnash

04-02-09, 02:24 PM

3" peak to peak?

Add more with larger surround and bigger motor, but it might take away from the good sound of the ultra.

mojomike

04-02-09, 02:38 PM

3" excursion ? Well that's great. The JL has closer to 4" excursion. What about that ? What about 5" excursion ? :)

Seriously, all I'm saying is that it would make sense to use an even more robust and powerful driver for an SVS sealed only design. Otherwise why even bring a sealed model to market when you can just use the PB13-Ultra in sealed mode ? Makes no sense.

Regards,

When they go to a 16" driver, that's considerably more area than a 13.5" and will displace more air with less excursion.

MIkeDuke

04-02-09, 03:02 PM

When they go to a 16" driver, that's considerably more area than a 13.5" and will displace more air with less excursion.

You mean like the old JM Labs Sub Utopia Be? That had a 16in driver in a "ported" design with 1000 watts of bash power. It was an extreme experience to say the least :).

goneten

04-02-09, 03:44 PM

Well, there is the size issue. Smaller enclosures are less costly to ship/store. I am also betting there are sonic differences.

Do you know how much smaller the sealed SB13-Ultra is going to be compared to it's ported counterpart ? It makes no sense to use the same driver in the sealed version, especially so if the box size is even smaller. Those harmonic distortion figures will be even higher down low.

I am assuming that the sealed SVS SB13-Ultra (not sure if this is the official model name but it will suffice for argument's sake) will compete more in line with the JL Fathom 13. If I'm right and it competes against the likes of the Fathom then it cannot use the same driver in a slightly smaller box. A more robust driver will be required with greater travel and I'm sure they'll deliver as they always do.

I'm sure Ed can answer these questions. Then again, perhaps it's a little early to get more information at this time. Who knows.

Regards.

mojomike

04-02-09, 04:07 PM

Do you know how much smaller the sealed SB13-Ultra is going to be compared to it's ported counterpart ? It makes no sense to use the same driver in the sealed version, especially so if the box size is even smaller. Those harmonic distortion figures will be even higher down low.

I am assuming that the sealed SVS SB13-Ultra (not sure if this is the official model name but it will suffice for argument's sake) will compete more in line with the JL Fathom 13. If I'm right and it competes against the likes of the Fathom then it cannot use the same driver in a slightly smaller box. A more robust driver will be required with greater travel and I'm sure they'll deliver as they always do.

I'm sure Ed can answer these questions. Then again, perhaps it's a little early to get more information at this time. Who knows.

Regards.

Ed has dropped plenty of design hints along the way. The driver is not going to be the same as the 13Ultra driver. Size-wise I would expect a box similar sized to the ULS-15 or the Rythmik 15. I would expect no highpass filter and little if any built-in eq to extend the flatness of the response.

And sorry to lower your expectations, but if I could get that type of performance (low-Q, 30 Hz corner, 2nd order roll-off, no output compression, >100 dB @ 20 Hz) from a 17-18" cube with a single 13.5" woofer and a 1000W plate amp, I'd be one happy product development manager. But we both know that the small cabinet will take its toll, and there will be inevitable performance concessions in exchange for a much smaller/lighter cabinet, most likely in the area of output compression. We will not be high passing these new sealed models, though - the low-Q wide knee and a the 2nd order roll-off will be design features of our higher level sealed subs.

Obviously, the SB16 would have similar design goals with a somewhat bigger box and more output.

If I'm guessing wrong on any of this stuff, Ed, please set me straight.:)

spyboy

04-02-09, 04:23 PM

Do you know how much smaller the sealed SB13-Ultra is going to be compared to it's ported counterpart ? It makes no sense to use the same driver in the sealed version, especially so if the box size is even smaller. Those harmonic distortion figures will be even higher down low.

I am assuming that the sealed SVS SB13-Ultra (not sure if this is the official model name but it will suffice for argument's sake) will compete more in line with the JL Fathom 13. If I'm right and it competes against the likes of the Fathom then it cannot use the same driver in a slightly smaller box. A more robust driver will be required with greater travel and I'm sure they'll deliver as they always do.

I'm sure Ed can answer these questions. Then again, perhaps it's a little early to get more information at this time. Who knows.

Regards.

Somewhere on this Forum is a picture of a 16 inch sealed SVS.

SVS already has a 12 inch sealed sub, as well as a 13.5 inch sealed/ported design in the PB-13.

To compete with the F113, SVS can afford to put a high excursion 16 inch driver in a good sized box. I am certain that SVS is not going to follow in the footsteps of HSU and offer one or more models in either sealed or ported versions, like the MBM-12.

SVS has to differentiate itself from the crowd and a high excursion 16 inch sealed in a good sized box will do that. By good sized I am still talking way smaller than, say, the Epik Conquest.

I would stay away from the 13 inch reference. That field has already been plowed, more than once.

gamelover360

04-02-09, 05:09 PM

Well the sub saga search continues...the last piece of my HT to be here in a few short months. So far 95% settled on..

1) A good 1080p 7-8000 msrp projector .....probably a new model released this fall (Sony, Epson, Planar, Samsung, etc.).

2) Carada 92 inch screen

3) Emotiva MPS-2 7 channel power amp (200 watts per channel)

4) Onkyo PR-SC 886 Pre/pro

5) PS3 and seperate blu ray player (either sony, samsung, or panny...nothing fancy so long as it bitsreams the HD codecs)

6) Klipsch THX Ultra 2 speakers (7 speakers total)

7) DIY acoustical treatment...some places here in Sweden sell rock wool (same as Owens corning 703)

8) Monoprice speaker wire, sub connects, and HDMI cables

9) Chocolate brown wall paint for the HT room

10) SVA As-EQ1

and ......number 11

Quad SUBS.....

Such a tough choice. I still have plenty of time to make a decision. I have entertained the idea of going the ID route and more established manufacturers. Living across an ocean is somewhat scary since Big Brother in Sweden can be quite cruel with 25% VAT tax on merchandise, plus shipping concerns with knuckleheads on a fork truck, and the obvious one of ordering from a non brick and mortar store where service is complicated by the whole ocean thing. I guess I find myself being seduced by the comfort that established manufacturers provide if I work with a local dealer in Sweden.

The ID people I have spoke with have been great, from Mark Seaton, eD, Hsu, Rhythmik, Danley, and Earthquake. They all seem to be fantastic products and the service has been great. If I lived in the states still, I would feel more confident about doing the internet thing. It's just a personal preference thing for me right now. Things could always change.

Also, the WAF has not been super supportive about four of some pretty big enclosures, and she would love the look of quad F113's. I am really falling for this sub, enchanted by its over engineering, build quality, and phenomenal performance given its size. Plus 4 of these would not only look beautiful forever in any room, but have a small footprint, and deliver all the bass I need. I would probably just stare at them for about a month! And I would spend the better part of 6 months with the subs, the as-eq1, and a SPL meter!:D

So now I a looking at

1) Quad F113's
2) Quad DD-15's
3) Quad DD-18's

I really can't find any great European sub manufacturers to add to the list. Seems that the USA has pulled past good old Europe in subs. Correct me if I am wrong.

I know the prevailing wisdom on some forums is that the velo DD's series is yesterdays news, and there are better for cheaper now. But some forums really love the Velo products. It's just that the F113 is such an engineering specimen, it is hard to justify the Velo's, but they are intriguing. Oh well, off to read reviews on velo's.

chengbin

04-02-09, 05:27 PM

If WAF is an issue, definitely go with quad F113's.

The DD-18 just sucks, don't even consider them. Plus, they're quite a bit bigger than the F113. The output is just terrible. 95dB at 20Hz, come on. For reference the F113 produced 101dB at 20Hz.

mojomike

04-02-09, 05:30 PM

I would go so far as to say that the DD's suck, but they have been pretty much superceded by $1000 subs.

gamelover360

04-02-09, 05:39 PM

I would go so far as to say that the DD's suck, but they have been pretty much superceded by $1000 subs.

Yeah, that is the impression I am getting from others.

There is just something about how the pro reviewers were awestruck by the capabilities of the F113. Numbers are important as a starting point, but numbers can't tell the whole story based upon the pro reviews and how the F113 affected them when listening to it. I realize than in a ground plane test that larger subs will outperform the JL's, especially in certain areas. but the reality is that I will probably never reach those limits watching blu ray (one 2 year old and another on the way....hello Audyssey Dynamic volume:rolleyes::p). Now and then I will crank it for sure, but 95% of the usage will be sane levels. I want that performance quality that the F113 has provided for the reviewers, that is not about the biggest or deepest BOOM. That is cool, but these are units I will have to live with forever. Moving them will be a snap, and the will fit nicely in any room I have in the future.

Plus using four ( if set up correctly) should allow me to get even deeper with less distortion...correct?

I think you can set up one as the master and teh other 3 as slaves. that just sounds wrong!

Also, I don't know if I would need the As-eq1 since the F113's have ARO on them.

chengbin

04-02-09, 05:55 PM

but the reality is that I will probably never reach those limits watching blu ray (one 2 year old and another on the way....hello Audyssey Dynamic volume:rolleyes::p). Now and then I will crank it for sure, but 95% of the usage will be sane levels.

Then why do you need 4 F113??????????

2 should be more than enough.

You still need an EQ because ARO is single band, which means it can only adjust one frequency. It is not a replacement for a proper EQ.

gamelover360

04-02-09, 06:06 PM

Then why do you need 4 F113??????????

2 should be more than enough.

You still need an EQ because ARO is single band, which means it can only adjust one frequency. It is not a replacement for a proper EQ.

My understanding is that with 4 you get benefits that do not include just play it louder. Less distortion, higher overall performance, smoother frequency response, greater immersion and pressurization for the listeners. Maybe I am way off here....let me know.

Edit: Don't get me wrong...putting on a real show when I do get the WAF out of the house is something I look forward to....tweaking, measuring, and seeing how good I can set up 4 subs. Maybe my insane levels will 15% of the time, not 5% like I said before.

bossobass

04-02-09, 06:40 PM

I've just never thought much of the added disclaimers that excuse poor performance with price. That's why I built my own. It either performs or it doesn't. Price, size, etc., should have nada to do with it.

In fact, my philosophy has been encouraged by the example set by none other than you yourself. To quote:

The Big Five- flat, deep, clean, linear, and loud. Do all five well at the same time and you've got the recipe for fantastic subwoofer performance. Compromise any, and it starts to show up in subjective listening sessions as various anomalies and artifacts.

THD at various frequencies and amplitudes is one of the most important benchmarks of subwoofer performance. A subwoofer with low THD at all frequencies within its normal operating range will sound clean and distinct, while high THD will sound muddy and unclear. At the lowest frequencies, a high THD reading means the listener will feel less of the true fundamental note, and hear more of the false harmonics. It can mean the difference between a clean, spine-tingling organ note which truly pressurizes the room, versus a muddy blur of notes which lack true foundation.

Subjectively, odd-order harmonic distortion is considered more objectionable to the listener than even order harmonic distortion. Even-order harmonics sound similar to the fundamental, but at a higher octave. Odd-order harmonics sound dissonant because they are related to the fundamental only in a mathematical sense, and not a musical one.

The notion that distortion is not necessarily undesireable is patently ridiculous. Distortion is by definition something not present in the original source content and is the antithesis of accuracy. I want to hear bass the way it was recorded, not with added distortion harmonics produced by an inferior design.

100% THD (meaning the harmonics are just as loud as the fundamental) at 20 Hz will create audible harmonics at 40, 60, and 80 Hz. And this has no bearing on sonic signature? Please.

Double standard? Revamped standard for sealed mode?

If I were displaying these numbers from a competitor's sub and attempting to justify them, you would be whistling a far different tune (confirmed in the above quotes regarding a competitor's sub). PERIOD.

This is an easy one: If you lower the playback level to acceptable HD below the knee, you give up lots of headroom above the knee. That makes the FR irrelevant. The best usable level is the 95dB sweep equivalent. As you've said, adding more subs will satisfy max clean output requirements, and I wholeheartedly agree. The problem here is the size makes that impractical, and the price quickly escalates.

I don't know where you're getting your info regarding box size and compression. The TC and XBl^2 drivers, all in an 18" or less cube, showed no compression below the knee in Ilk's sweeps.

Please explain to me in detail how air spring causes compression?

You simply lack a basic knowledge of sealed sub design.

I don't build single driver subs.

You should seriously get out more if you think people aren't operating your subs at max output when playing source with VLF content, especially the PB-13 in sealed mode (which, being the crux of our discussion, I seriously doubt many owners use for this purpose). I'm not suggesting that anyone do anything. I'm telling you that people, nearly all of them, operate the F-113 and PB-13 sealed (and every other sub made) at maximum output when watching movies with VLF content.

Will a HP truncate the input signal? Will a limiter set a brick wall? Will the driver unload? Will X-max be exceeded? Will the amplifier clip? Yes, to all of the above, which is the case in all available commercial sealed subs. Choose your method, then post in a forum to defend your chosen method over the others.

You've said you'll take 100% THD over other methods, but this is the first I've heard the new Ed Mullen preference, which is a 180 from the old one.

Bosso

chengbin

04-02-09, 06:53 PM

My understanding is that with 4 you get benefits that do not include just play it louder. Less distortion, higher overall performance, smoother frequency response, greater immersion and pressurization for the listeners. Maybe I am way off here....let me know.

Edit: Don't get me wrong...putting on a real show when I do get the WAF out of the house is something I look forward to....tweaking, measuring, and seeing how good I can set up 4 subs. Maybe my insane levels will 15% of the time, not 5% like I said before.

4 does play louder, but will you turn it that high?

Less distortion is true, but that's only true when you start hitting the sub's limit. At mid to mid-high volumes, the benefit of less distortion is non-existent.

I think you should buy 2 first, and play with it. See if you have any nulls (you can correct peaks easily, but not nulls). See if you like it, and satisfy you when you crank it. Then decide if you want 2 more. I seriously don't think 4 F113 is necessary for a 2200 cubic feet room, even if you listen at ridiculous volumes.

penngray

04-02-09, 07:32 PM

4 does play louder, but will you turn it that high?

Less distortion is true, but that's only true when you start hitting the sub's limit. At mid to mid-high volumes, the benefit of less distortion is non-existent.

I think you should buy 2 first, and play with it. See if you have any nulls (you can correct peaks easily, but not nulls). See if you like it, and satisfy you when you crank it. Then decide if you want 2 more. I seriously don't think 4 F113 is necessary for a 2200 cubic feet room, even if you listen at ridiculous volumes.

mininum of 3 subs should be used for maximizing in room response.

This isnt just about sheer output, he wants to spend X dollars to get a specific performance. No matter what he should be getting 3 or 4 subs, it just a better design according to experts.

penngray

04-02-09, 07:35 PM

Fatawan

04-02-09, 07:46 PM

Isn't Genelec a European company? Call Illka and see what he has come up with!

gamelover360

04-03-09, 01:33 AM

goneten

04-03-09, 03:35 AM

Please explain to me in detail how air spring causes compression?

Been there, done that. It all depends on ones definition of "compression". ;)

Regards,

notoriousmatty

04-03-09, 03:41 AM

Bosso what company do you work for? Not for arguments sake but because im in the market for a sub. And you dont dispute that the pb-13 is remarkable in ported mode?

gamelover360

04-03-09, 04:51 AM

Since I am now focusing on Jl products for now (lifetime ownership, WAF factor, crave factor, small form factor, etc.)....I am considering 2 options

1) Quad F113's ( I would still have some money to upgrade my projector 5 years down the road if I wanted)

2) Dual G213's ( I would buy a bit better projector to start but then have no money to upgrade projectors down the road....could probably live with that)

The main thing is that I would like to be sure that Dual G213's will outperform Quad F113's in terms of depth, distortion, etc. Here is a review (http://www.ultraaudio.com/twbas/twbas_20080401.htm) of the G213, the only one I could find. and it says

Perhaps most impressive is the heavy-lifting part of the hardware. JL Audio manufactures its own drivers, and the ones in the Gotham are a sight to behold. The version of their W7 made specifically for the Gotham has a larger magnet structure than the one used in cars, and even differs from the version in JLA’s Fathom subs. JLA claims that this driver’s excursion extends a full 4" from peak to peak. The cabinet housing these monsters is molded from fiberglass with internal braces built into the mold -- JLA found that MDF was simply not strong enough. JLA also makes their own power amplifiers; the 3800W class-D unit used in the Gotham g213 includes an absolutely massive toroidal power transformer.

It would also be easier to calibrate dual subs rather than quads. Any thoughts or impressions. Thanks

chengbin

04-03-09, 07:22 AM

Since I am now focusing on Jl products for now (lifetime ownership, WAF factor, crave factor, small form factor, etc.)....I am considering 2 options

1) Quad F113's ( I would still have some money to upgrade my projector 5 years down the road if I wanted)

2) Dual G213's ( I would buy a bit better projector to start but then have no money to upgrade projectors down the road....could probably live with that)

The main thing is that I would like to be sure that Dual G213's will outperform Quad F113's in terms of depth, distortion, etc. Here is a review (http://www.ultraaudio.com/twbas/twbas_20080401.htm) of the G213, the only one I could find. and it says

It would also be easier to calibrate dual subs rather than quads. Any thoughts or impressions. Thanks

I don't recommend the dual g213's, nor do a JL employee. According to the JL employee, 2 stacked F113 will have equivalent performance as a g213, but also have the advantage of multiple subs and a much lower price. I'd get 4 f113's, cheaper, and you can get a better room response.

The f113 also has a different driver than the car audio version (bigger magnet, more excursion, etc), but the f113 driver is different from the g213 driver (g213 has more internal volume)

gamelover360

04-03-09, 07:42 AM

I don't recommend the dual g213's, nor do a JL employee. According to the JL employee, 2 stacked F113 will have equivalent performance as a g213, but also have the advantage of multiple subs and a much lower price. I'd get 4 f113's, cheaper, and you can get a better room response.

The f113 also has a different driver than the car audio version (bigger magnet, more excursion, etc), but the f113 driver is different from the g213 driver (g213 has more internal volume)

Thanks, I stumbled across the same sentiments in the another thread. Seems like the Dual G213's would be a setup ideal for 2 channel music lovers that want to dual subs up front with their fronts. It seems that quad F113's will not only "blow my head off" but also allow for some fun experiements and flexibility in placement. As a bonus I save money so that I can upgrade projectors down the road.

One other ridiculous option (totally unneccessary and would also nix a projector down the road) would be dual F113's and dual F212's:D:D.
Would be FUN but losing the option of a projector upgrade down the road is a steep price!

Nuance

04-03-09, 09:20 AM

Well, it seems your decision has been made, but I concur with the quad JL F113's if you don't feel comfortable with going ID. This will be an awesome system!

Enjoy!

gamelover360

04-03-09, 11:49 AM

I just demoed the Klipsch RF64 system with a 12inch Velodyne sub (their new one)....Ironman was AWESOME. they had a 300 watt per channel amp. Wow. Very nice. As hard as that sub could hit, I can already tell that I want even harder hitting, and more room pressurization. Quads are going to be unreal. But they key will be to set them up properly. Can anyone point me in the direction of some literature and/or some info on how to set up 4 subs. I will have a SPL, the As-eq1, and an pre/pro with audyssey. I will probably connect one sub out on the as-eq1 to one sub and then make another sub its slave. Then connect the other sub out on the as-eq1 to the third sub, and make the fourth sub its slave. Does that sound reasonable?

Also, what benefits will quad subs offer besides smoothing out the rooms frequency response? Will I see less distortion at lower frequencies/higher db. More room pressurization?

thanks

pbc

04-03-09, 01:02 PM

There is just something about how the pro reviewers were awestruck by the capabilities of the F113.

Having had the pleasure of the F113, PB13, DD18 and Servo-15 v2 in my family room at the same time, I fully understand that comment.

When you see the size of the F113 and hear what it can do, it is quite simply, an amazing product that belies its size. Had the price (in Canada anyhow) not been more than double that of the PB13, I would have taken a more serious look at it just based on the fact that it has a considerable size advantage (i.e., considerably smaller and in a Family room with a wife that is a big factor!) over the PB13 and looks stunning in gloss black.

Having said that, I love my PB13, run it in 15hz tune. But may switch to sealed for a while just to see how it performs in my 1700cuft room (unfortunately it has two doorways open to the hallway and kitchen so may be too "large" with those included for the sealed mode). When we compared it in sealed mode to the other subs it performed extremely well, but we did not do so for HT or at reference levels.

gamelover360

04-03-09, 01:20 PM

Having had the pleasure of the F113, PB13, DD18 and Servo-15 v2 in my family room at the same time, I fully understand that comment.

When you see the size of the F113 and hear what it can do, it is quite simply, an amazing product that belies its size. Had the price (in Canada anyhow) not been more than double that of the PB13, I would have taken a more serious look at it just based on the fact that it has a considerable size advantage (i.e., considerably smaller and in a Family room with a wife that is a big factor!) over the PB13 and looks stunning in gloss black.

Having said that, I love my PB13, run it in 15hz tune. But may switch to sealed for a while just to see how it performs in my 1700cuft room (unfortunately it has two doorways open to the hallway and kitchen so may be too "large" with those included for the sealed mode). When we compared it in sealed mode to the other subs it performed extremely well, but we did not do so for HT or at reference levels.

Nice to hear some owner feedback.

bossobass

04-03-09, 01:44 PM

Bosso what company do you work for? Not for arguments sake but because im in the market for a sub. And you dont dispute that the pb-13 is remarkable in ported mode?

I've worked for myself since I was 21. I have no plans to mass produce subwoofers. I've sold subs locally for many years.

I've never disputed the PB-13 as a ported commercial sub. It embodies the constant forward motion of one of the best 4th order designers in the industry, and delivers the goods in spades, by any standard.

Bosso

Ron Temple

04-03-09, 02:08 PM

Having said that, I love my PB13, run it in 15hz tune. But may switch to sealed for a while just to see how it performs in my 1700cuft room (unfortunately it has two doorways open to the hallway and kitchen so may be too "large" with those included for the sealed mode). When we compared it in sealed mode to the other subs it performed extremely well, but we did not do so for HT or at reference levels.I've been running mine in sealed mode for the last week or so. My room is 2000cube with a 5' opening into the rest of the front of my house, about 5500 cube. The sub is firing into the sealed part of the room, so the result is closer to sealed room performance. Initial report is that music has tightened up. It's more resolved and hits very hard in the midbass, without the bloom at the bottom (something that I never considered a problem until I started running 2 channel subless). I'm flat down below 16hz (where my tones stop) and I've scrubbed off the room gain below 35hz. I don't play movies at reference...usually somewhere from -10 to -5. I haven't noticed the headroom loss. I did watch the BD of Phantom of the Opera at reference the other night with absolutely no problem (that particular disk has huge dynamic range and doesn't seem to burden my rig at those volumes).

So give it a try and see if it works for you. It's a nice change. Your room is small enough that you probably won't notice the drop in headroom either.

penngray

04-03-09, 03:17 PM

I am still questioning whether 2, 3, or 4 subs is the way to go. I guess I will read the research paper. Also interested in his opinion about EQ'ing with DSP.

It would just be so cool with one on wall!:eek: It's a weakness I have.

You read anything about Infinite Baffles yet? You think all these options you listed give you SPL/SQ, etc....try 4 18" drivers in an IB manifold :D

mojomike

04-03-09, 03:28 PM

I've been running mine in sealed mode for the last week or so. My room is 2000cube with a 5' opening into the rest of the front of my house, about 5500 cube. The sub is firing into the sealed part of the room, so the result is closer to sealed room performance. Initial report is that music has tightened up. It's more resolved and hits very hard in the midbass, without the bloom at the bottom (something that I never considered a problem until I started running 2 channel subless). I'm flat down below 16hz (where my tones stop) and I've scrubbed off the room gain below 35hz. I don't play movies at reference...usually somewhere from -10 to -5. I haven't noticed the headroom loss. I did watch the BD of Phantom of the Opera at reference the other night with absolutely no problem (that particular disk has huge dynamic range and doesn't seem to burden my rig at those volumes).

So give it a try and see if it works for you. It's a nice change. Your room is small enough that you probably won't notice the drop in headroom either.

Gee, Ron you must be wrong. According to Bosso, the PB13 with the ports plugged is not really a sealed sub and "it just doesn't cut the mustard at what I think you call 'spirited' playback levels, in sealed mode." :rolleyes:

Better get your hearing checked.:p

penngray

04-03-09, 03:36 PM

Gee, Ron you must be wrong. According to Bosso, the PB13 with the ports plugged is not really a sealed sub and "it just doesn't cut the mustard at what I think you call 'spirited' playback levels, in sealed mode." :rolleyes:

Better get your hearing checked.:p

Nice generalization! ;)

Bosso is strictly talking about the High SPL performance. Sure it can perform and keep up with any Sealed sub at normal levels. Bosso is just picking the one area to show the PB13 is weaker then the other sealed products talked about.

For those wanting 4 PB13 sealed, I doubt the issues Bosso raises will remotely come into play. I love idea of multiple subs period because we can actually great a great response from lower end subs since there is no need to push them. This means we can even go cheaper then $1K to get great in room overall response.

pbc

04-03-09, 04:11 PM

I've been running mine in sealed mode for the last week or so. My room is 2000cube with a 5' opening into the rest of the front of my house, about 5500 cube. The sub is firing into the sealed part of the room, so the result is closer to sealed room performance. Initial report is that music has tightened up. It's more resolved and hits very hard in the midbass, without the bloom at the bottom (something that I never considered a problem until I started running 2 channel subless). I'm flat down below 16hz (where my tones stop) and I've scrubbed off the room gain below 35hz. I don't play movies at reference...usually somewhere from -10 to -5. I haven't noticed the headroom loss. I did watch the BD of Phantom of the Opera at reference the other night with absolutely no problem (that particular disk has huge dynamic range and doesn't seem to burden my rig at those volumes).

So give it a try and see if it works for you. It's a nice change. Your room is small enough that you probably won't notice the drop in headroom either.

May do this tonight as the wife and child are away. I know originally Ed suggested 15hz tune which is where I've kept it.

The only thing I hate is redoing Audyssey on my Integra 9.8. But then, now that I think about it, I think I can save the 15hz EQ as the main one and just have to redo this once and revert back to the saved version if/when I move back to 15hz tune. :cool:

Ron Temple

04-03-09, 05:12 PM

May do this tonight as the wife and child are away. I know originally Ed suggested 15hz tune which is where I've kept it.

The only thing I hate is redoing Audyssey on my Integra 9.8. But then, now that I think about it, I think I can save the 15hz EQ as the main one and just have to redo this once and revert back to the saved version if/when I move back to 15hz tune. :cool:Yeah, I don't have Audyssey. It took me over 3 hours to get sealed dialed in manually and I dread switching back to 15hz. As I said though, I don't miss the headroom.

Kangaroo128

04-03-09, 05:25 PM

This may not be the best thread to ask this, but how likely is it that I'll be able to add a second PB-13 two or so years from now? I love my first one but I won't have the funds for a second one for a good while. Will the line be cancelled by then? I really hope not. :confused:

Nuke61

04-03-09, 06:22 PM

As a contrary opinion about the size of the PB-13, for my situation, I actually prefer it. The F113 was a serious consideration for me, but it was actually too small for my use. The Ultra is almost exactly the size of one of my end tables, so instead of having an end table next to my couch, the nice rosewood top of the Ultra is the "end table". I already had a 12" sonosub, so putting the PB13 in a near-field setup worked well, both aesthetically and sonically.

mojomike

04-03-09, 07:12 PM

Yeah, I don't have Audyssey. It took me over 3 hours to get sealed dialed in manually and I dread switching back to 15hz. As I said though, I don't miss the headroom.

I'd bet you can do fine by running it sealed using your old Audyssy setting and just raisng the sub 's gain a couple of db's to compensate for the level change.

warlord260

04-03-09, 07:23 PM

Ed Mullen

04-03-09, 07:40 PM

Now you've gone and hurt my feelings, Dave. ;)

I never said high THD was desirable - of course it's not. As you know, we shoot for low THD in all our woofer designs and subwoofers to the extent practicable given the acoustic alignment and cabinet size. What I did say is if forced to choose between excessive output compression and high THD, I'll take high THD as I consider it the lesser of two evils. Make no mistake - both are evil and I also said ideally I'll accept neither (and I don't in my own reference system).

As at least one poster indicated above, the PB13U can be used in sealed mode in a reasonable size room at spirited levels without obvious audible artifacts or THD intrusion. The 95 dB sweep level at 2M outdoors (where you indicated the PB13U was still linear/clean) shows 90 dB @ 20 Hz @ 5% THD. This translates into some pretty serious SPLs corner loaded in a 1500 ft^3 room. Add 6 dB for each nearfield boundary, maybe 2 dB for the ceiling, and (conservatively) 8 dB/octave of room gain <35 Hz, and you're looking at ~109 dB @ 20 Hz @ 5% THD in-room. That's not too shabby. At 10 Hz (where the sub is making 80 dB @ 30% THD) you're still looking at ~109 dB (room gain is adding at least another 10 dB compared to the 20 Hz level at that frequency). Again not Dolby Reference Level but still very respectable.

And I do get out more, thank you very much. I work Sales and Tech Support on a routine basis and I know exactly how our products are used and how loud they are played. And if I see a customer with a PB13U in a smaller enclosed room, I'll at least touch on the option of sealed mode depending on the intended playback levels.

Regardless, the PB13U's behavior in sealed mode is not unique. Every single DIY sealed subwoofer Ilkka tested behaved exactly the same way (to a greater or lesser extent) - THD rose dramatically at the deepest frequencies with a corresponding increase in cone excursion.

I was trusting you to make the intuitive leap about my comments regarding box size and compression. The box doesn't cause compression - a smaller box (for a given woofer cone surface area) simply shifts the system resonance frequency higher. For example, the single TC-2000 in 90L rolls off <40 Hz (and that's a pretty big box). The dual TC-2000 in 140L rolls off <50 Hz! Clearly, the dual system would need 180L to preserve the same FR and corner frequency as the single driver system.

Stuffing a big woofer in a comparatively small box (which is the trend these days for OEM sealed subs) results in high system resonance frequency that doesn't want to naturally extend deeper before roll-off (like the PB13U does in sealed mode because its cabinet is so large). So after flattening out the system resonance peak with a notch filter, we add EQ to extend the response to the desired roll-off frequency. EQ chews up power, the amp runs out of steam, the limiter kicks in, and output compression sets in.

With BASH platforms, we simply don't have the power levels at our disposal that the DIY community does. Look at the LMS-5400 (an 18" woofer in a 100L sealed box) - it's being powered with a Crown CE4000 at 3600 watts (!!) into 4 ohms. And the amp still ran out of power at the highest sweep levels before the woofer showed any serious signs of distress. Now imagine this same subwoofer with an 800W BASH amp......can you spell major output compression? :)

FWIW, we do use a Crown Macro 5000 for all subwoofer development to see what the system is really capable of before it gets neutered with a plate amp at much lower power levels. Our sealed 13.5" and 16" development woofs can take far more power than even the strongest currently available BASH amps can deliver. We're looking at ways around that and still trying to keep costs reasonable, but it's not easy and is slowing product development.

JargonGR

04-03-09, 08:12 PM

I have benn following this thread and can't help it but ask since I plan on getting two subs.

Has anyone tested/tried the PB13 Ultra with B&W800Ds? I have a 5.1 System with 800Ds/HTM1D and 803Ds as surrounds (will also add 2x805s and later switch to two 802Ds and ditch the 805s) and I was wondering if two PB13Ultras would be a good match for movies. (I already have an SMS-1)

Are the new 16" form SVS going to be a higher model/better and when are they coming out.

counsil

04-03-09, 11:24 PM

TheFactor

04-03-09, 11:36 PM

How does the Def Tech Trinity rate against the PB13U and F113? My main setup consists of a PB13U (a second one is being delivered next week), Def Tech BP7002s for mains, and a Def Tech CLR2500 for my center (my surrounds are in-ceiling so I hate to mention them). I have been very pleased so far with both manufacturers. I have recently auditioned the Trinity with BP7000SCs. They are amazing :eek: and Def Tech is B&M. Although the Trinity definitely outperformed my PB13U, the Trinity was in a treated demo room. That's makes total sense, and I know that doesn't mean the Trinity is any better of a sub than the PB13U. I am just throwing out some ideas/questions. Please don't shoot me.

Cocked and locked and ready to rock :mad: Ha ha:p j/k Those are some great questions , but know I cant answer them so thought I'd give you a free bump and harass you instead LOL . OMG I CANT EVEN IMAGINE HAVING TWO ULTRAS . Someday maybe:D but I bet your going to love your twin setup...congrats in advance :)

bossobass

04-04-09, 03:44 PM

Gee, Ron you must be wrong. According to Bosso, the PB13 with the ports plugged is not really a sealed sub and "it just doesn't cut the mustard at what I think you call 'spirited' playback levels, in sealed mode." :rolleyes:

Better get your hearing checked.:p

Great info, Mojo. I'll be sure to pay close attention to your further input on this subject. :rolleyes:

Thanks for that last post, Ed. Much better explanations and spot on. As I've said many times over the years, if you want to realize the advantages of a sealed alignment over a particular ported sub, cut the box in half, double the drivers and double the power, at a minimum.

Here's a graph of the PB-13 in a room similar in size to Ron's. I've overlaid the anechoic response and the THD graphs (relative to each other) of Ilk's THD on-the-fly graphs of the 105dB sweep in sealed mode and 10Hz tune ported mode.

The 10Hz tune ported mode results in a flatter in-room response and 6-8dB more output below 20Hz with TONS less harmonic distortion.

Looking at the rooms transfer function (the anechoic trace vs the in-room sealed mode trace), we see a gain of 16dB at 10Hz. At 7Hz the 2 modes cross going down in frequency. There appears to be a HP in the amplifier at around that point, which negates the advantage of the sealed sub below that point.

Being restricted to a FR to just below 10Hz in either case, let's look at the situation where Ron is watching a movie in which a strong 10-15Hz effect occurs. These LFE are encoded in the range of -15 to -5dBFS. This translates to 110dB at the LP at reference level playback in the extreme case.

Let's assume Ron sets his MVL to -5dBRL, which would require the 10Hz effect to peak at 105dB at the LP at worst case and assume his PLP is 2M from the sub.

The PB-13 was clocked at 2M GP in sealed mode at 89dB at 10Hz during the 105dB sweep. Adding 12dB of room gain at 10Hz (in a similar room to Ron's) gives us 101dB at 10Hz, or 4dB less than what's required.

In ported mode, the output at 10Hz is 93dB at 2M, GP. Adding for room gain plus the gain advantage over the sealed output for a total of 18dB, we have capability of 111dB, or 6dB of headroom.

Looking at the harmonic distortion of both modes at 10Hz during the 105dB sweep, we can't see the THD for sealed mode because it way, way off the chart by 10Hz (I estimate it to be around 100%), and it's around 28% in ported mode (actually less because in ported mode we still have 6dB of headroom.

The sealed mode sub has some output reserve in the tank to be able to reproduce the effect without incident if you bump the SW trim to 4dB hotter, but the THD will increase proportionally.

What this boils down to is that to equal the performance in ported 10Hz tune mode, you would need 3-4 PB-13s in sealed mode. Not only is this not a likely probability, I'm saying it just ain't gonna happen that anyone will buy 3 more PB-13s and plug the ports vs just using the single PB-13 in 10Hz ported mode.

In tests I've run over the years, some (although a small minority) have actually preferred a sub with much higher THD, although it has been in subs that exhibit mostly 2HD, not 3HD. I'm not attempting to say what anyone should like or dislike or hear or not hear.

The 'bloat' difference may be attributed by some to the obvious difference in in-room output below the knee of both modes, but since the ported mode results in a flatter response and music is normally filtered much higher than the BW I'm discussing, the most likely difference in sonic signature is that one mode is a resonant system and the other mode is not. But, and to my point, there are much better and smaller alternatives in a sealed alignment that allow for easier placement of multiples and cleaner output below the knee that can be used for music listening with a wide BW sub.

On those whom this comparison is lost, I don't know what to tell ya. It's enough for me that the glaringly obvious requires this sort of scrutiny in the first place.

http://i469.photobucket.com/albums/rr55/Bosobass/SEALED.jpg

Bosso