How do the Edge Mounted LEDs avoid black crush, since they are not arranged in a manner, that would allow precise local dimming for shadow details in various localized sections of a screen?

Samsung is making great contrast level claims for these models, but is that for just an off/on state, or can they really scale the subtle precise illuminations required to avoid black crush, or floating blacks? Has anyone put one of these sets through their paces?

Here is a link to report on release dates and MSRP for each model.


http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/home/permalink/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20090331005271&newsLang=en


Excerpt:

"
Eye-Opening Picture Quality
All three of Samsung’s LED HDTV Series achieve dynamic contrast ratios that surpass those of traditional LCD HDTVs using a CCFL, for deep, inky blacks and crisp whites. The use of LEDs and Samsung’s Wide Color Enhancer Pro feature work together to also produce a more vivid, yet natural range of colors with a variety of content. The Ultra Clear Panel allows more light to pass through the screen while reducing reflections from ambient light, resulting in a bright and detailed picture in most any room. Samsung’s “Natural” mode optimizes picture settings to ensure the brightness advantage of LCD displays and the cinema-like richness of plasma displays with any content."

I briefly examined the new Samsung 40" LED sets at Fry's on Sunday. I can say I was not noticeably impressed by the brightness, contrast, and viewing angles - which seemed in every way comparable to the CCFL backlit models, and inferior to the "local dimming" technology of 2007/2008. Disclaimer: this was the briefest appraisal and I did not attempt to adjust the sets and they were probably running in "Demo" mode or whatever Samsung calls it when user image settings are reset every few minutes.

These sets are very slim and the connector panels have beed redesigned to allow shallow mounting close to a wall. However the extreme thinness has caused the manufacturer to eliminate the subwoofer that Samsung formerly used, the TV sound is now noticeably inferior, 2.0 versus 2.1 channels.

Overall it seems to me the major benefit over the 2008 CCFL backlit models is the lower energy consumption.

Angles are a step backwards, but saturation, and contrast seem enhanced to my eyes.

Floating blacks are noticable to varying degrees, and I notice odd blotches in brighter portions of the screen when off axis (this isn't mura, and it can't be crosstalk, so what is it?)

I saw a 7100 not too long ago... was immediately impressed by the contrast performance and, surprisingly, color performance- colors on the 7100 were just quite a bit richer, more vivid, and seemingly more accurate than on the Sammy 650 and Panny 800U that were next to it (and neither of those sets is a slouch).

Viewing angle performance was decent, not awesome, but not as bad as ppl say that Sammy 950s are, for example (I personally don't think that 950s are quite as bad as ppl say in that regard). The 7100's picture was pretty good long as I stayed within about 20 or 25 degrees of off-axis, beyond that, PQ drops off pretty quick it seemed.

Shadow detail in very dark areas was the achilles heel, though, as you seem to fear. It had good shadow detail in slightly to moderately dark areas, but very dark areas tended to become "big blobs o' black". That was the only real disappointment. Brightness and sharpness both seemed excellent, and a step beyond the 650, as I'd expect/want on a set with this price tag (again, the 650's no slouch). And the thinness was quite 'sexay' too, I was surprised that I cared about that, but in person, you kinda do. ;)

It's a pretty impressive set overall, the only two real negatives were of course the price and the detail crush in very dark areas. Problem #1 likely eases as the newness wears off and the street price drops. Prob #2 might be mitigated by settings or might be an inherent flaw, hard to say without having one at home to play with at length.
.

Angles are a step backwards, but saturation, and contrast seem enhanced to my eyes.

Floating blacks are noticable to varying degrees, and I notice odd blotches in brighter portions of the screen when off axis (this isn't mura, and it can't be crosstalk, so what is it?)

OK. Joke alert, so fasten your Punny Bone Seat Belt.

Perhaps Samsung swiped the Kuro blotching technology patent. ;)

On a serious note: it could be a byproduct of the LED edge mounted illumination process. They may not have full perfected the processing algorithm, that controls how the LEDs share, or take command of variable regional illumination requirements.

On a serious note: it could be a byproduct of the LED edge mounted illumination process. They may not have full perfected the processing algorithm, that controls how the LEDs share, or take command of variable regional illumination requirements.

That's what I was thinking, when I look at LED backlighting, I see a ton of future potential, but I don't see a tech that is ready for prime time. (give it three years to mature and then it should be ready) I could see my next TV being a LED edge lit LCD, but that would be after another 2 product generations at the very least. (Samsung's first 120hz LCD was very buggy, second gen fixed most problems and third gen improved even more, expect something similar with LED)

They may not have full perfected the processing algorithm, that controls how the LEDs share, or take command of variable regional illumination requirements.Share and variable? Do they actually do this? I thought it was a global dimming backlight?

Share and variable? Do they actually do this? I thought it was a global dimming backlight?

Based on some of the owner reports, it sounds like it could easily be the problem. (many people have reported odd dimming on these sets)

Share and variable? Do they actually do this? I thought it was a global dimming backlight?

I was just speculating on how they work. So little has really been written about how the edge mounted LCDs are actually applied.

Here is another article with a just another slight hint of how they work.

http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=25087


I always become very wary about a first gen. product, when the manufacturer makes a statement, such as this one:

"Samsung said it has now resolved technical issues affecting development of a marketable edge-lit LED LCD display, including inadequate brightness across the entire screen, and overheating of the outside frames and light-guide plate."

Perhaps, with your technical expertise, you might be able to deduce something from the following excerpt:

"While a direct-lit LED backlight will project light forward across the full expanse of the display from the front, edge-lit LEDs emit light from a row of LEDs on the top and bottom of every panel, using less power. The edge-lit technology gathers the light towards the center of the display and bends it, reflecting it forward through a light-guide plate that precisely focuses the light for outstanding picture quality."

That's what I was thinking, when I look at LED backlighting, I see a ton of future potential, but I don't see a tech that is ready for prime time. (give it three years to mature and then it should be ready) I could see my next TV being a LED edge lit LCD, but that would be after another 2 product generations at the very least. (Samsung's first 120hz LCD was very buggy, second gen fixed most problems and third gen improved even more, expect something similar with LED)
Nice to see open minds on the AVS. In a few years from now even the ardent plasma supporters will be looking and buying these sets.

Its a natural progression of technology.

Nice to see open minds on the AVS. In a few years from now even the ardent plasma supporters will be looking and buying these sets.

Its a natural progression of technology.

Or it might just turn out to be a technology that can not be perfected, and in a few years time end up like DLP sets, which Samsung also first burst on the scene with.

Remember; that open mind of yours needs to be open to that possibility also.

Nice to see open minds on the AVS. In a few years from now even the ardent plasma supporters will be looking and buying these sets.

Its a natural progression of technology.

You mean an open mind that doesn't keep bringing up a bad experience with one plasma back in 2005? Sometimes we need to practice what we preach. :)

You mean an open mind that doesn't keep bringing up a bad experience with one plasma back in 2005? Sometimes we need to practice what we preach. :)

that needed to be said! thanks.

You mean an open mind that doesn't keep bringing up a bad experience with one plasma back in 2005? Sometimes we need to practice what we preach. :)
I don't bring it up as much as you do.

But lets get real here. It appears that plasmas better days are behind it. And even the die hards know this. From my plasma experience I knew that LCD would win the HDTV wars.

Today I was looking at the LCD's and plasmas next to each other. LCD has surpassed plasma, it just looks better IMO.

And IMO these new LED sets are going to replace plasma altogether. Just a matter of time. :)

I was just speculating on how they work. So little has really been written about how the edge mounted LCDs are actually applied.

Here is another article with a just another slight hint of how they work.

http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=25087


I always become very wary about a first gen. product, when the manufacturer makes a statement, such as this one:

"Samsung said it has now resolved technical issues affecting development of a marketable edge-lit LED LCD display, including inadequate brightness across the entire screen, and overheating of the outside frames and light-guide plate."

Perhaps, with your technical expertise, you might be able to deduce something from the following excerpt:

"While a direct-lit LED backlight will project light forward across the full expanse of the display from the front, edge-lit LEDs emit light from a row of LEDs on the top and bottom of every panel, using less power. The edge-lit technology gathers the light towards the center of the display and bends it, reflecting it forward through a light-guide plate that precisely focuses the light for outstanding picture quality."I have some papers on this subject but none from Samsung. I'll post some info in this thread.

I don't bring it up as much as you do.

But lets get real here. It appears that plasmas better days are behind it. And even the die hards know this. From my plasma experience I knew that LCD would win the HDTV wars.

Today I was looking at the LCD's and plasmas next to each other. LCD has surpassed plasma, it just looks better IMO.

And IMO these new LED sets are going to replace plasma altogether. Just a matter of time. :)

That sure doesn't look like an open minded post to me and I may have mentioned your plasma experience a couple times while you've used it probably no fewer than a dozen times. Let's at least be honest here.

IMO

I guess those 3 letters makes it okay to say whatever? :D

^^^
Good thing you edited that one.

^^^
Good thing you edited that one.

Only for spelling. Context remained the same. :D

Only for spelling. Context remained the same. :D
I read it and we don't need to get into that.:rolleyes:

"While a direct-lit LED backlight will project light forward across the full expanse of the display from the front, edge-lit LEDs emit light from a row of LEDs on the top and bottom of every panel, using less power. The edge-lit technology gathers the light towards the center of the display and bends it, reflecting it forward through a light-guide plate that precisely focuses the light for outstanding picture quality."A quick look through the journals suggest that the segmented phlatlight design is what may be used by Samsung. Is there any technical material from samsung at all?


"Samsung said it has now resolved technical issues affecting development of a marketable edge-lit LED LCD display, including inadequate brightness across the entire screen, and overheating of the outside frames and light-guide plate."I have a feeling Samsung had very little to do with solving these issues.

I was just speculating on how they work. So little has really been written about how the edge mounted LCDs are actually applied.

"While a direct-lit LED backlight will project light forward across the full expanse of the display from the front, edge-lit LEDs emit light from a row of LEDs on the top and bottom of every panel, using less power. The edge-lit technology gathers the light towards the center of the display and bends it, reflecting it forward through a light-guide plate that precisely focuses the light for outstanding picture quality."

This is actually no big deal. Handheld devices from cell phones to the DS and PSP are all using LED edge lit LCD screens using a light guide (if you look close at these screens at an obtuse angle you can see the "blobs" of white light and can actually count how many LEDs are used). They have been doing that for years, ever since the white LED was mass produced.

I guess the achievement here is doing it on a bigger screen, other than that not much new.

Shadow detail in very dark areas was the achilles heel, though, as you seem to fear. It had good shadow detail in slightly to moderately dark areas, but very dark areas tended to become "big blobs o' black". That was the only real disappointment.

Did you play with settings? Samsung just LOVES to add exagerated "dynamic contrast " settings. I have seen these modes before and all they do is crush shadow detail.

This is the reason I stay out of these threads now, because it is always the same ol' same ol'. Don't you people get tired of the same thing over, and over, and over, and over again? Why not just have a link to the other 100 posts of the same thing instead of regurgitating it all over again?


"Nice to see open minds on the AVS. In a few years from now even the ardent plasma supporters will be looking and buying these sets.

Its a natural progression of technology."

It doesn't take you very long does it?

this is the set I was raving about in my SEEN THE LED LIGHT thread

I don't bring it up as much as you do.

But lets get real here. It appears that plasmas better days are behind it. And even the die hards know this. From my plasma experience I knew that LCD would win the HDTV wars.

Today I was looking at the LCD's and plasmas next to each other. LCD has surpassed plasma, it just looks better IMO.

And IMO these new LED sets are going to replace plasma altogether. Just a matter of time. :)

So, you're comparing sets on a store wall and making your judgments from that?

You've just invalidated any further opinions on the subject from that one observation.

moving on...

I don't bring it up as much as you do.

But lets get real here. It appears that plasmas better days are behind it. And even the die hards know this. From my plasma experience I knew that LCD would win the HDTV wars.

Today I was looking at the LCD's and plasmas next to each other. LCD has surpassed plasma, it just looks better IMO.

And IMO these new LED sets are going to replace plasma altogether. Just a matter of time. :)

You're right. To see the people gathered around those new 1 inch think Samsung LCD's is something to behold. Plasma doesn't stand a chance against it.

Panasonic seems like the last company standing when it comes to Plasma. They believe they have power to contend with the greater power of the market. As great as Panasonic is, I believe the power of the market is going to eventually crush them and they will have to submit and eventually bow out of plasma. I see this happening within the next 2-3 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox http://images.avsforum.com/avs-images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16168256#post16168256)
A quick look through the journals suggest that the segmented phlatlight design is what may be used by Samsung. Is there any technical material from samsung at all?


I have a feeling Samsung had very little to do with solving these issues.

So far, I have not come across any Samsung technical material.

I will keep looking. Perhaps you might be able to ferret out if they hold any patents on it, or if they are just licensing, or five fingers licensing;), from some other patent holders.

The thing that I most want to have cleared up:

Is this set only capable of global dimming, and functions just on/off across the entire screen, or have they figured out how to make the edge mounted LEDs perform Local Dimming in any part of the screen.

Update.

I came across this interview of the founder of Luminous Devices, which developed the Phlatlight LED product. It is eight pages long, so here is a link to it:

http://www.sramanamitra.com/2008/08/...erchak-part-1/ (http://www.sramanamitra.com/2008/08/07/luminus-devices-founder-and-chief-technology-officer-alexei-erchak-part-1/)

Interesting excerpt;

"SM: Where is the company in terms of revenues and actual designs and production volumes?
AE: We have revenue from the projection television market. We also have revenue from the front projection applications, and that is increasing as well. One big application is LCD. What we have done to try and accelerate that is work closely with Jabil Circuit. They are one of the largest OEMs in the world, the third largest actually. We have been working with them because first, we are not going to build the backlight ourselves so we need someone to integrate this whole thing, and second it will allow us to drive the cost down and be competitive with CCFL.
Jabil already sells LCD televisions to the big TV companies. They OEM the TVs for them. We have been working with them closely, and we expect to have a product out in late 2008, possibly early 2009. The LCD backlight unit recently won the gold award at the SID show. The other two companies that won the award were Apple for the iPhone and Sony for their OLED TV. I look at that and think ‘which of these companies does not belong – Sony, Apple, and Luminus’. It is really great to be in their company. That was a strong indication to the television manufacturers that what we are doing is real, and we are very confident that we are going to be able to get into the market. The only question is what premium does it come in at, and that is really question of pricing for our customers.
Luminus is not a profitable company right now. We are still venture-backed. We recently took in another big round of funding."

You're right. To see the people gathered around those new 1 inch think Samsung LCD's is something to behold. Plasma doesn't stand a chance against it.

Panasonic seems like the last company standing when it comes to Plasma. They believe they have power to contend with the greater power of the market. As great as Panasonic is, I believe the power of the market is going to eventually crush them and they will have to submit and eventually bow out of plasma. I see this happening within the next 2-3 years.

So, the only way Panasonic can compete against LED LCDs is to develop thinner tvs?

Um, done. Can you say 54" Z series only months away?

I came across this interview of the founder of Luminous Devices, which developed the Phlatlight LED product. Phlatlight segmented lightguide design can be seen here. Segment local dimming or scanning is possible.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd126/xrox/edge2.jpg
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd126/xrox/edge1.jpg

;16171031']So, the only way Panasonic can compete against LED LCDs is to develop thinner tvs?

Um, done. Can you say 54" Z series only months away?

In September? Why not now? Samsung will run circles around Panasonic in the market. Panasonic will have to compete Samsungs own line of Plasma, Samsung has Panasonic checkmated.

Um, so whoever does it first wins in the long-run? Are you serious??

Hitachi had both Sammy and Panny beat with their Director's Series. Why won't Hitachi win over Sammy?

Phlatlight segmented lightguide design can be seen here. Segment local dimming or scanning is possible.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd126/xrox/edge2.jpg
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd126/xrox/edge1.jpg

Interesting. I wonder how well it can handle local dimming from just edge illumination. Surely it can not be as precise, in that regard, as even the LD LED BLU approach.

Is the 140watts for the 37" model, the average or the max power? If it is the average, then it is not that big an energy saver over a 42inch NeoPDP.

;16170778']So, you're comparing sets on a store wall and making your judgments from that?

You've just invalidated any further opinions on the subject from that one observation.

moving on...

That's kind of a head-in-the-sand attitude.

Because, for good or ill, comparing on a store wall is exactly how 90% plus of buyers do it. That's the market. And it's a big part of why plasma's in trouble.

Yes, yes, YES, I know all about the evils of torch mode and over-intense big-box store lighting. But that's the game.

Don't hate the player (LCD), hate the game.

Along those lines, has anyone seen a Neo PDP on a store wall yet? And did its increased brightness show well in that environment? I'm hoping yes.
.

That's kind of a head-in-the-sand attitude.

Because, for good or ill, comparing on a store wall is exactly how 90% plus of buyers do it. That's the market. And it's a big part of why plasma's in trouble.

Yes, yes, YES, I know all about the evils of torch mode and over-intense big-box store lighting. But that's the game.

Don't hate the player (LCD), hate the game.

Along those lines, has anyone seen a Neo PDP on a store wall yet? And did its increased brightness show well in that environment? I'm hoping yes.
.

I do hate the game. And I'm neck-deep in it. But your arguments don't sound like a television buyer, they sound like a television maker or retailer.

By the way, about the Neo PDP - I've seen a GT10. It's noticeably brighter without graying the blacks. To me it also seems more noise free that the 80u or 85u that it replaced.

That's kind of a head-in-the-sand attitude.

Because, for good or ill, comparing on a store wall is exactly how 90% plus of buyers do it. That's the market. And it's a big part of why plasma's in trouble.

Yes, yes, YES, I know all about the evils of torch mode and over-intense big-box store lighting. But that's the game.

Don't hate the player (LCD), hate the game.

.
When I went looking how to solve my plasma woes, its been the same from day one members say, It needs to be calibrated. Well three months of calibration with no results I bought an LCD.

Plasma has excellent PQ but its not the panacea of HDTV.

For some reason folks here on the AVS want everyone to believe your observations. With LCD out selling plasma 8 to 1 maybe its because LCD is better?

When I went looking how to solve my plasma woes, its been the same from day one members say, It needs to be calibrated. Well three months of calibration with no results I bought an LCD.

Plasma has excellent PQ but its not the panacea of HDTV.

For some reason folks here on the AVS want everyone to believe your observations. With LCD out selling plasma 8 to 1 maybe its because LCD is better?

Bose outsells every other speaker manufacturer by a wide margin, maybe because it's better? Use common sense.

;16173348']I do hate the game. And I'm neck-deep in it. But your arguments don't sound like a television buyer, they sound like a television maker or retailer.

By the way, about the Neo PDP - I've seen a GT10. It's noticeably brighter without graying the blacks. To me it also seems more noise free that the 80u or 85u that it replaced.

I also just saw a 50in. GT10 yesterday at ABC Warehouse, hooked up to a blu-ray source (Transformers) , but that's split out over like 10 t.v.'s or so, which makes the picture not all it could be. However, the PQ still seemed very good to my semi-untrained eye...and certainly close in brightness to the Samsung LCD's next to it (A550, A650 i think).

By comparison, they also had the Samsung 46 in. 6000 series hooked up directly to blu-ray, which also demo'd Transformers (by request) and the noise/graininess on it was terrible! Granted, I have no idea how they had it calibrated or what the AMP settings were or anything, but i was completely shocked by how bad it looked in comparison.

When Ratotoille (spelling?) was put back in, though, the Samsung looked absolutely stunning! Hands down better than the Panny on that movie for sure, but on Transformers it definitely loses. I'm going to go back today and bring The Dark Knight and Phantom of the Opera to see if I can replicate the graininess/noise I experienced yesterday and to also see how the Sammy is calibrated.

Phlatlight segmented lightguide design can be seen here. Segment local dimming or scanning is possible.


There are some exploded view pictures of the samsung set here: http://content.zdnet.com/2346-9595_22-283512.html
Note that the light sources are white leds, mounted around all four edges of the screen (light guide).

So I too wonder if it is possible for this technology to do localized dimming? It seems obvious that an entire vertical or horizontal segment could be dimmed, but that seems like a very coarse adjustment?

This thread came to a sudden stop. Does anyone have any further information to add.

One thing that I came across was that the manufacturer of the Edge-lit BLU claims that it has a 20,000 hour life span. Does anyone know if the LEDs will grow dimmer during that period?

This thread came to a sudden stop. Does anyone have any further information to add.

One thing that I came across was that the manufacturer of the Edge-lit BLU claims that it has a 20,000 hour life span. Does anyone know if the LEDs will grow dimmer during that period?

That number is laughable if true,
Normal LED = 50,000 hour till half-life
CCFL = 60,000 hour until half-life
Panny Plasma = 100,000 hours until half life.

And LEDs still need refinements before they are ready to be used for LCD backlights. (due to them dimming over time)

http://gizmodo.com/5151865/led-bulb-life-spans-are-not-what-they-seem

http://www.nickhill.co.uk/white_LED_life_expectancy.html

Shadow detail should be a real strength of a global dimming system.
I wouldn't put too much stock in a show room setting as most "vivid" settings crush on purpose.

That's what I was thinking, when I look at LED backlighting, I see a ton of future potential, but I don't see a tech that is ready for prime time. (give it three years to mature and then it should be ready) I could see my next TV being a LED edge lit LCD, but that would be after another 2 product generations at the very least. (Samsung's first 120hz LCD was very buggy, second gen fixed most problems and third gen improved even more, expect something similar with LED)

Pend.: I know this is the LED string, but I am on this string under strange pretences. I wanted one, now I don't Here is my situation I was ready to pull the trigger on the new 610LCD by Sammy but everything I read on this model not fill me with much confidence. Then I started looking at Sammys LEDs. Same story, not much confidence in Sammys LED product from what I am reading. So back to LCD until Samsung figures LED out. Which leads me to my question what is Samsungs third gneration 120Hz models?

Since this old thread of mine has been resurrected; here is a new review from HDGuru.

SAMSUNG UN46B800 240 Hz, EDGE LIT LED LCD REVIEW BY HDGURU.
http://hdguru.com/samsung-un46b8000-...st-review/429/ (http://hdguru.com/samsung-un46b8000-240hz-lcd-led-tv-exclusive-first-review/429/)


. Use the link to read the full report.

Since Edge Lit LED is just used as a BLU, it appears to be a deliberate scam by Samsung, in calling the product an LED HDTV.

Notice that they do not call their regular LCD models CCFL HDTVs, which to be consistent, they should.

Since this old thread of mine has been resurrected; here is a new review from HDGuru.

SAMSUNG UN46B800 240 Hz, EDGE LIT LED LCD REVIEW BY HDGURU.
http://hdguru.com/samsung-un46b8000-...st-review/429/ (http://hdguru.com/samsung-un46b8000-240hz-lcd-led-tv-exclusive-first-review/429/)


. Use the link to read the full report.

Since Edge Lit LED is just used as a BLU, it appears to be a deliberate scam by Samsung, in calling the product an LED HDTV.

Notice that they do not call their regular LCD models CCFL HDTVs, which to be consistent, they should.


I read the article, and what gets me, is the attitude torwards large B&M stores like BB. They criticize their tags for displaying WHAT THE MANUFACTURERS advertises the displays as, making them out to be the evil subsidiary, as if they are purposefully trying to deceive the consumer.

This is no different from the producing the tags stating other manufacturer details such as contrast, response time, and refresh rate.