I accidentally clicked on the LCD forum and I have to run away in disgust when they say the XBR8 is better than the Kuro and even the XBR4/6 is better than the 9G kuro. I am really wondering if LCD users have their retinas burned out by the bright backlight or is simply smoking some exotic stuff...if thats the case I really want some of whatever they are smokin!

I accidentally clicked on the LCD forum and I have to run away in disgust when they say the XBR8 is better than the Kuro and even the XBR4/6 is better than the 9G kuro. I am really wondering if LCD users have their retinas burned out by the bright backlight or is simply smoking some exotic stuff...if thats the case I really want some of whatever they are smokin!


You answered your own question when you used the word "fanboys".

Everybody is entitled to their opinion.

everybody is entitled to their opinion.

+1

What's the purpose of this thread other than cause trouble?:eek::eek::eek:

What's the purpose of this thread other than cause trouble?:eek::eek::eek:

Because i feel sad :(

The XBR8 is up there, definitely. If it wasn't for the poor viewing angles, you could probably make a strong argument that it is the equal of a Pioneer in most cases.

Personally, i don't like the design of it though...I'd rather have the Sam 950.

What's the purpose of this thread other than cause trouble?:eek::eek::eek:

i guess pioneer Kuro live by the sword and die by the sword :(

Sony is better than pioneer. But the kuro is better than sony's lcd.

Why do i feel a a sense of loss and deep sadness whenever I sit in front of my Kuro?

It's personal preference. For Example, I own both the Kuro Non elite 5020Fd and the Panny 58" 850U. In my opinion, without question, If I had to return one TV it would be the KURO. I'm sure most people would think I'm crazy. But overal a much better TV.

Why do i feel a a sense of loss and deep sadness whenever I sit in front of my Kuro?

That's a very good question. Perhaps you want more out of life than a great TV? You should likely talk to some of the people in your life, or perhaps a therapist. You may be suffering from depression brought on by any number of causes. Perhaps your problem stems from the realization that a TV addiction has cost you the love of your wife and any possibility of having a happy family life. Or it could be as simple as you not having the television turned on.

It's personal preference. For Example, I own both the Kuro Non elite 5020Fd and the Panny 58" 850U. In my opinion, without question, If I had to return one TV it would be the KURO. I'm sure most people would think I'm crazy. But overal a much better TV.

You would return the 50" and keep the 58".....get outta here :p

You would return the 50" and keep the 58".....get outta here :p

Some people prefer size over PQ, nothing wrong with that.

That's a very good question. Perhaps you want more out of life than a great TV? You should likely talk to some of the people in your life, or perhaps a therapist. You may be suffering from depression brought on by any number of causes. Perhaps your problem stems from the realization that a TV addiction has cost you the love of your wife and any possibility of having a happy family life. Or it could be as simple as you not having the television turned on.

My wife feels similar sentiments with me...and none of us are willing to turn the TV on since the panel and plasmas have limited half-life

My wife feels similar sentiments with me...and none of us are willing to turn the TV on since the panel and plasmas have limited half-life

Maybe you should try World of Warcraft. I have never touched this but people say it is great. Good luck.





on a serious note.... :D:D:D

Some people prefer size over PQ, nothing wrong with that.

Actually, if they were both the same size, I'd still go with the Panny. Believe it or not, size has nothing to do with my decision.

Actually, if they were both the same size, I'd still go with the Panny. Believe it or not, size has nothing to do with my decision.

http://i11.tinypic.com/6aou5wl.gif

My wife feels similar sentiments with me...and none of us are willing to turn the TV on since the panel and plasmas have limited half-life

The limited half-life of the plasma panel is still longer than you are likely to own it, unless you are planning on watching TV for 24-hours a day over the next several years. You have the TV, it is there to be used and enjoyed. By the time it starts to die, you'll have moved on to new 3-D display technology. Not using a plasma TV because it has a half-life is like not using your car because it might wear out the brakes or engine parts, or not wearing shoes because you don't want to wear down the souls.

As an aside, even a Sony LCD will eventually fail. Just because they don't have an estimated half-life doesn't mean it won't. Nothing lasts forever... not even us!

http://i11.tinypic.com/6aou5wl.gif


Crazy huh? I have many reasons for saything this and I think I'm entitled to talk about it since I own both TV's. I've had them side by side testing same image. Though the blacks are better on the Kuro, it aint by much (at least to the naked eye). though the menu looks nicer on the Kuro, the menu is SO much easier to navigate on the Panny. Same holds true for the controoler The lack of settings on the Kuro is simply brutal. (I'm sure we wouldn't be having this conversation if I had the elite). The picture on the Panny is so much richer, so much warmer and has more depth to it. At times the Kuro looks flat? It's so hard to say unless you had both TV's in your house on a daily basis. At times the Kuro looks fantastic, other times I'm not WOW'd by it. I'm sure If the Kuro was the only TV I owned, I would FREAK over it.

I don't want to spam the board with my website, but I will be taking pictures of both TV's side by side and I will actually be doing a video comparison. This is just from a regular person. I'm NO DNice of course, Just sharing my opinion.

If I had to do it all over again, I would of gotten the Elite.

The limited half-life of the plasma panel is still longer than you are likely to own it, unless you are planning on watching TV for 24-hours a day over the next several years. You have the TV, it is there to be used and enjoyed. By the time it starts to die, you'll have moved on to new 3-D display technology. Not using a plasma TV because it has a half-life is like not using your car because it might wear out the brakes or engine parts, or not wearing shoes because you don't want to wear down the souls.

As an aside, even a Sony LCD will eventually fail. Just because they don't have an estimated half-life doesn't mean it won't. Nothing lasts forever... not even us!


Very good point!!

I accidentally clicked on the LCD forum and I have to run away in disgust when they say the XBR8 is better than the Kuro and even the XBR4/6 is better than the 9G kuro. I am really wondering if LCD users have their retinas burned out by the bright backlight or is simply smoking some exotic stuff...if thats the case I really want some of whatever they are smokin!

Forum Rules.


Plasma Flat Panel Displays (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=167) (279 Viewing)
This area is ONLY for the chat on Plasma Flat Panel displays. It is to be used to chat about the display type and not to use to attack it as compared to other displays. PLASMA CHAT ONLY. NO PRICE TALK/NO RETAIL LINKS PLEASE

If I had to do it all over again, I would of gotten the Elite.


Or a 60in ;)

Or a 60in ;)

Nope. I honestly wouldn't buy a 60" Non elite. I have to have more settings! I still have no reason why Pio would take them away with the 9G. Now, if I had a chance to buy a 60" Elite, That's a whole different story...

Nope. I honestly wouldn't buy a 60" Non elite. I have to have more settings.


But you bought a 50in non elite ?

But you bought a 50in non elite ?

He means he wouldn't buy a non-Elite again. I'm wondering why he didn't research the Elite and non-elite beforehand.

Some people prefer size over PQ, nothing wrong with that.

I agree and if you reread what I typed, you just agreed with me :) . Its called sarcasm sir! Its all irrelevent now anyways, because he prefers picture quality to size.

I agree and if you reread what I typed, you just agreed with me :) . Its called sarcasm sir!

I did not mean anything by it.

Nope. I honestly wouldn't buy a 60" Non elite. I have to have more settings! I still have no reason why Pio would take them away with the 9G. Now, if I had a chance to buy a 60" Elite, That's a whole different story...

OR, you could buy a KRP model and get Elite picture quality IN PURE MODE as well as lots more menu settings than the non-elite (only missing ISFccc modes that the elites have), with the pricing at the same or less than the non-elite ;) . That is if you dont need speakers, stand, or tuner however.

I did not mean anything by it. Me neither...no biggie...just made me chuckle :)

OR, you could buy a KRP model and get the Elite picture quality AND setting options (minus ISFccc), with the pricing at the same or less than the non-elite ;) . That is if you dont need speakers, stand, or tuner however.

You wont get ELite picture quality because no ISFccc. Just making a correction.

You wont get ELite picture quality because no ISFccc. Just making a correction.


And no cms that tightens color accuracy.

You wont get ELite picture quality because no ISFccc. Just making a correction.

Thank you for that correction. I made the appropriate changes to my post and sorry for the confusion :D

http://i11.tinypic.com/6aou5wl.gif

That pic had me rolling....lol....perfect for the situation :D

My wife feels similar sentiments with me...and none of us are willing to turn the TV on since the panel and plasmas have limited half-life
And LCDs last forever? Last time I checked, they both were good for around 60,000 hours. 8 hours a day, every day would be 20 years.

He means he wouldn't buy a non-Elite again. I'm wondering why he didn't research the Elite and non-elite beforehand.

I actually did a ton of research. (I own a HD FORUM). The issue is this. I was a HUGE LCD guy. I sold my 52" XBR5 a couple of months ago. I didn't want to pay the price tag on the XBR8 and at the time, I was not impressed with the Sammy's. I never thought in a million years that I would like plasmas. But, I took a shot and bought the 850U with the thinking that if I liked that plasma, next year I'd get the 10G Kuro Elite (I buy TV's once a year). So, I bought the Panny and was BLOWN AWAY. JAW DROPPING Picture. When the price came down on the non elite, I said what the hell, I will sell my bedroom TV and buy the Kuro 5020FD. (btw, I kept the Sammy and it's now in the kitchen hooked p to a computer). So, that's my story in a nutshell. All I'm saying is when I do all the comparisons of both TV's, the Panny definitely without question comes out on top. I Will be posting videos, pictures, and reviews on my site. (sorry I can't openly post the site, out of respect for AVS)


Peace,

BLT

I actually did a ton of research. (I own a HD FORUM). The issue is this. I was a HUGE LCD guy. I sold my 52" XBR5 a couple of months ago. I didn't want to pay the price tag on the XBR8 and at the time, I was not impressed with the Sammy's. I never thought in a million years that I would like plasmas. But, I took a shot and bought the 850U with the thinking that if I liked that plasma, next year I'd get the 10G Kuro Elite (I buy TV's once a year). So, I bought the Panny and was BLOWN AWAY. JAW DROPPING Picture. When the price came down on the non elite, I said what the hell, I will sell my bedroom TV and buy the Kuro 5020FD. (btw, I kept the Sammy and it's now in the kitchen hooked p to a computer). So, that's my story in a nutshell. All I'm saying is when I do all the comparisons of both TV's, the Panny definitely without question comes out on top. I Will be posting videos, pictures, and reviews on my site. (sorry I can't openly post the site, out of respect for AVS)

Just out of curiosity, do you ever have your displays calibrated professionally, or do you also do that type of thing yourself? Thanks!

Just out of curiosity, do you ever have your displays calibrated professionally, or do you also do that type of thing yourself? Thanks!


Since the TV's are pretty new I have NOT had them calibrated professionally. I did however use settings from well respected guys on this site.

You also have to remember that a VERY small percentage of people get their TV's calibrated. So when I can finally post pics, video, comparsions, etc., I don't want them calibrated. I want your everyday joe looking to buy a TV to see the differences.

Perhaps after that, I will then calibrate both sets and do a comparison.


Peace,

BLT

Why do i feel a a sense of loss and deep sadness whenever I sit in front of my Kuro?

Did you paid too much for it?




... has Panasonic started making/delivering the panels for Pioneer yet? Those Panny's are something esle. My buddy bought a 50" Panasonic a year ago from the Brick - paid like $1700 CAD if I recall and this thing is spectacular. I don't even think he bought the most current model at the time. I was floored the first time we watched Transformers on HD-DVD. I've since watched it on blue ray on my XBR4 46". Its great, but must say my jaw didn't open like it did seeing for the first time on my pal's 50" Panny.

Its no suprise Pioneer failed in their market approach with the Kuro - they may have been the best plasma, but how many people did they think would pay 20 or 30% more for a picture thats 5% better.

I actually did a ton of research. (I own a HD FORUM). The issue is this. I was a HUGE LCD guy. I sold my 52" XBR5 a couple of months ago. I didn't want to pay the price tag on the XBR8 and at the time, I was not impressed with the Sammy's. I never thought in a million years that I would like plasmas. But, I took a shot and bought the 850U with the thinking that if I liked that plasma, next year I'd get the 10G Kuro Elite (I buy TV's once a year). So, I bought the Panny and was BLOWN AWAY. JAW DROPPING Picture. When the price came down on the non elite, I said what the hell, I will sell my bedroom TV and buy the Kuro 5020FD. (btw, I kept the Sammy and it's now in the kitchen hooked p to a computer). So, that's my story in a nutshell. All I'm saying is when I do all the comparisons of both TV's, the Panny definitely without question comes out on top. I Will be posting videos, pictures, and reviews on my site. (sorry I can't openly post the site, out of respect for AVS)


Peace,

BLT

I could careless what anyone likes or dislikes concerning PQ. To each their own.

But, your gripe in those posts was about control and that is something that is honestly well known with the non-Elites. You just seem adamant about control and if that is a big deal, you wouldn't have gone with the non-Elite. Well, I would have assumed.

I have a Zenith Console with simulated woodgrain sides and a betamax that kicks everythings ass. who cares.

Did you paid too much for it?




... has Panasonic started making/delivering the panels for Pioneer yet? Those Panny's are something esle. My buddy bought a 50" Panasonic a year ago from the Brick - paid like $1700 CAD if I recall and this thing is spectacular. I don't even think he bought the most current model at the time. I was floored the first time we watched Transformers on HD-DVD. I've since watched it on blue ray on my XBR4 46". Its great, but must say my jaw didn't open like it did seeing for the first time on my pal's 50" Panny.

Its no suprise Pioneer failed in their market approach with the Kuro - they may have been the best plasma, but how many people did they think would pay 20 or 30% more for a picture thats 5% better.

How did you come up with that number?

I could careless what anyone likes or dislikes concerning PQ. To each their own.

But, your gripe in those posts was about control and that is something that is honestly well known with the non-Elites. You just seem adamant about control and if that is a big deal, you wouldn't have gone with the non-Elite. Well, I would have assumed.

Yes, I knew about the lack of controls, but from what everyone claims, the 5020 is this amazing TV when in all reality I'd personally take an 850U over it. People have asked me several times, Do I go with the 850U or the non elite. In my opinion and the opinion of those who have seen both TV's in my home, the Panny has a better picture. If someone where to ask me should I buy an Elite or a 850U, I'd say go with the Elite. Also, you have to remember, the pioneer is in my bedroom. My thinking (at the time) was why would you buy an elite for the bedroom unless their crazy? (well, in all reality I guess I am crazy). :) Again, I think the picture quality is still fantastic on the Kuro. I'm saying side by side, I like the picture quality on the 850U better. I don't have an elite to do a test. But I have seen Elites and they blow me away.....

Sony fanboys says the XBR8 is better than the Elite Kuro...are they on crack?



Yep ,they are straight up freebasers.

I have a Zenith Console with simulated woodgrain sides and a betamax that kicks everythings ass. who cares.

Looking to trade 600M, PS3, and cash for your setup....Let me know.

Looking to trade 600M, PS3, and cash for your setup....Let me know.


I got one I will trade you IF you add $500 cash allong with the 600M & PS3.

Here she is, she is a beauty I know . Try not to druel........


http://www.bananaforce.com/images/zenith-before-425.jpg

Yes, I knew about the lack of controls, but from what everyone claims, the 5020 is this amazing TV when in all reality I'd personally take an 850U over it.

Let's see, we have one guy saying the Panasonic is better than the Kuro and by your own words "everyone" saying otherwise. Hmm. :p


Also, you have to remember, the pioneer is in my bedroom. My thinking (at the time) was why would you buy an elite for the bedroom unless their crazy? (well, in all reality I guess I am crazy). :)

Well, with you buying a TV every year it seems that paying 500-800 dollars more to get the control and better PQ would have been a no brainer, even to the sanest person.

By the way, your screen name is very ironic considering your TV buying habits. LOL

Let's see, we have one guy saying the Panasonic is better than the Kuro and by your own words "everyone" saying otherwise. Hmm. :p




Well, with you buying a TV every year it seems that paying 500-800 dollars more to get the control and better PQ would have been a no brainer, even to the sanest person.

By the way, your screen name is very ironic considering your TV buying habits. LOL

I know! I get that from people all the time. (it was a nickname back in my investing days) Makes no sense when it comes to buying electronics... :)

And I'm also going to assume don't have both TV's in your home, so It's kinda hard for you to say anything? :)

I know! I get that from people all the time. (it was a nickname back in my investing days) Makes no sense when it comes to buying electronics... :)

And I'm also going to assume don't have both TV's in your home, so It's kinda hard for you to say anything? :)

You assume incorrectly. Sort of. My girlfriend has a Panasonic and I have an Elite. Plus, I work at a place where I watch TV's all freaking night. But, long story short, yes, I've seen the Panasonic and the non-Elite next to each other and I don't agree with your sentiment. ;)

You assume incorrectly. Sort of. My girlfriend has a Panasonic and I have an Elite. Plus, I work at a place where I watch TV's all freaking night. But, long story short, yes, I've seen the Panasonic and the non-Elite next to each other and I don't agree with your sentiment. ;)

touche! :)

Shootout of the pioneer 111fd, panasonic 800u, sony xbr8, and samsung a950.

http://hometheatermag.com/flat-panels/face_off_at_the_hdtv_corral/

You assume incorrectly. Sort of. My girlfriend has a Panasonic and I have an Elite. Plus, I work at a place where I watch TV's all freaking night. But, long story short, yes, I've seen the Panasonic and the non-Elite next to each other and I don't agree with your sentiment. ;)
I've seen them side by side in a Magnolia showroom. I went back there many times when I was trying to decide what to buy, and watched them for many hours altogether. In that setting, the Pioneer had a better picture, in my opinion. Of course it wasn't a home setting but it wasn't a bright showroom setting either.
I guess it just comes down to personal preference.

Shootout of the pioneer 111fd, panasonic 800u, sony xbr8, and samsung a950.

http://hometheatermag.com/flat-panels/face_off_at_the_hdtv_corral/


It’s not surprising that the Pioneer came out on top for me. You simply can’t trip it up. Every set here had flaws that could be drawn out consistently with certain types of program material, except the Pioneer.


Overall, the Pioneer Elite plasma outperformed all others. The TV’s deeper black levels, truer gradations of color, and excellent handling of standard-def content set it above the rest. Its exceptional detail occasionally resulted in increased graininess, but otherwise, this is a beautiful set.

I rated the Pioneer as the winner by a length, but frankly, any of these TVs would be an excellent choice. The caveat is that if you will be sitting to the side of the TVs (as is the case in most living rooms) and you choose one of the LCD models, you’ll want to sit further back to reduce the effects of the off-axis reduction in quality.

The Pioneer looked great on pretty much everything. I want one. One of my TVs is a well-calibrated rear-projection CRT (no, I don’t still heat my house with coal, thank you very much), so I’m very well acquainted with deep blacks. The Pioneer satisfied me and then some, thanks to its fantastic detail.


Bottom line: If money were no object, I’d go for the Pioneer. If my budget were tight, I’d get the Panasonic. The LCDs were both impressive, but neither one beat the Pioneer in my view. Also, off-axis performance is important to me—neither plasma had a problem there—and the Sony is just too expensive.

I got one I will trade you IF you add $500 cash allong with the 600M & PS3.

Here she is, she is a beauty I know . Try not to druel........


http://www.bananaforce.com/images/zenith-before-425.jpg

that brings a tear to this middle aged man's eye... :)

While I know LCD sets suffer when viewed off axis, I was shocked at how little I had to move off center to see image degradation. The Samsung and Sony were side by side, and one seat was lined up dead center where the two sets met. Sitting in that seat, four picture heights away, it was almost impossible to even compare the two LCDs head to head because the off-axis performance of each was so affected.

I thought that pretty much summed it up.

I got one I will trade you IF you add $500 cash allong with the 600M & PS3.

Here she is, she is a beauty I know . Try not to druel........


http://www.bananaforce.com/images/zenith-before-425.jpg


Woo hoo....let's put Bonanza on so we can watch a 300lb bald man ask his "paw" if he could take the wagon to town....RIP Hoss Cartwright(Dan Blocker)....

Those were the days, my friends, those were the days...no stinking screen door effect, purple snakes, dithering, ya da ya da ya da...just good ole rabbit ears(with "tin foil") and roof mounted antennas...and the valuable "rotor". Give me those 6 total channels and I was king of the airwaves.

Woo hoo....let's put Bonanza on so we can watch a 300lb bald man ask his "paw" if he could take the wagon to town....RIP Hoss Cartwright(Dan Blocker)....

Those were the days, my friends, those were the days...no stinking screen door effect, purple snakes, dithering, ya da ya da ya da...just good ole rabbit ears(with "tin foil") and roof mounted antennas...and the valuable "rotor". Give me those 6 total channels and I was king of the airwaves.

Those were the days my friend. Indeed! :)

I got one I will trade you IF you add $500 cash allong with the 600M & PS3.

Here she is, she is a beauty I know . Try not to druel........


http://www.bananaforce.com/images/zenith-before-425.jpg

Stunning is the word coming to mind right now....absolutely stunning! Its like artwork I tell ya! You have a deal, and if you are close enough, I will deliver and setup as well. Otherwise, please let me cover shipping both ways. Thank you very much!

^ Are you going to include an ashtray over flowing with Pall Malls as a center channel and toss in the Pong in your reference room? We may have a deal.

So when the Kuro turns into the Delorean, what is the predicted replacement? Prozac?

I think the XBR8 (in its own right) is a fantastic TV with great blacks that from what I've seen rival the KURO and beat any other Plasma out there (Panny, Sammy, LG etc.). It's also got superb color accuracy and can be calibrated to produce an extremely good grayscale. However, I feel that like all LCDs, it suffers from having a limited viewing angle. In addition there is the $7,000 for a 55 inch TV (This is even more than the MSRP for a 60 inch KURO). Obviously I can't quote dealer prices but the point I'm trying to make is that you are paying a similar price and are getting a smaller screen that suffers from PQ degradations as your viewing angle changes.

Is it a good TV? Yes

Is it better than the KURO? I don't think so but others will beg to differ. I think that KURO still has the PQ and Price advantage.

I'm not a Sony fanboy, but what I've seen of LED LCD its surpassed any plasma today.

The times have changed.

I spent a good deal of time with both, watching Blu-Rays in a nice light-controlled environment.

The XBR8 is the nicest looking LCD I've ever seen, but it did not best the Kuro in anything except in black level on a completely blank screen (whoopty-do).

In all other areas that are important to me, it either fell behind or was a match at best. Combined with the fact that I could have gotten a 60" Elite for less money, the decision was a no-brainer.

I think the XBR8 (in its own right) is a fantastic TV with great blacks that from what I've seen rival the KURO and beat any other Plasma out there (Panny, Sammy, LG etc.). It's also got superb color accuracy and can be calibrated to produce an extremely good grayscale. However, I feel that like all LCDs, it suffers from having a limited viewing angle. In addition there is the $7,000 for a 55 inch TV (This is even more than the MSRP for a 60 inch KURO). Obviously I can't quote dealer prices but the point I'm trying to make is that you are paying a similar price and are getting a smaller screen that suffers from PQ degradations as your viewing angle changes.

Is it a good TV? Yes

Is it better than the KURO? I don't think so but others will beg to differ. I think that KURO still has the PQ and Price advantage.


Very well put actually. Most will see me as a big Pio supporter but I agree XBR8 are great and soon the XBR9's are coming so I cant wait :)

Very well put actually. Most will see me as a big Pio supporter but I agree XBR8 are great and soon the XBR9's are coming so I cant wait :)

XBR9? At $8000 wonder how many you will sell?

Is there a replacement for the XBR8 yet? I'm pretty certain that the XBR9 is the replacement for the current XBR6, not the 8.

I'm not a Sony fanboy, but what I've seen of LED LCD its surpassed any plasma today.

The times have changed.
Not quite. Dead center viewing it is getting closer and closer. However, and that is a BIG however, viewing angles are actually getting worse. The XBR8 and 950 have AWFUL viewing angles, and I just don't see how people can just overlook this major flaw. I REALLY like the new Samsung 7100 LCDs, and I'm looking to get one for one of my rooms (I'm waiting to see how the new 9000s turn out though), but this is a room where TWO people will be viewing the set dead on. The Kuro stays in the main viewing room where people get a PERFECT picture no matter where they sit.

Quite honestly, I think Sony has a ROUGH road ahead of them. Those people better LOVE the XBR8 because with the amount of insanely good products Samsung is pumping out at much cheaper prices, Sony may not be around much longer. Forget the Kuro comparison, I'd take the 7100 over the XBR8 any day. And that's not even going to be Samsung's flagship model of 2009. ;) It's going to be Samsung 9000 vs Sony XBR9 in 2009. And I'm willing to bet Samsung completely slaps Sony's flagship model in the face, performance AND price wise. :)

Is there a replacement for the XBR8 yet? I'm pretty certain that the XBR9 is the replacement for the current XBR6, not the 8.

Yup I think there is an XBR10 or some other series that will replace the XBR8. It would indeed be odd if Sony replaced a TV featuring a Multi-zone LED backlight with a standard fluorescent backlight.

Is there a replacement for the XBR8 yet? I'm pretty certain that the XBR9 is the replacement for the current XBR6, not the 8.

They have too many models IMO lol if you could only see their spreadsheet :eek:
I will miss Pioneer since it was easy
XBR8 is staying, XBR 9 will be top of the line

They have too many models IMO lol if you could only see their spreadsheet :eek:
I will miss Pioneer since it was easy
XBR8 is staying, XBR 9 will be top of the line

BuybestLCD? Hurry. Buy the domain!! LOL

BuybestLCD? Hurry. Buy the domain!! LOL

Taken, trust me its been checked LOL

Taken, trust me its been checked LOL

Oh, no!

LMAO

Stunning is the word coming to mind right now....absolutely stunning! Its like artwork I tell ya! You have a deal, and if you are close enough, I will deliver and setup as well. Otherwise, please let me cover shipping both ways. Thank you very much!

Excellent, well if you are gonna deliver and set-up I will throw in something else...
http://www.esquire.com/cm/esquire/images/AtariConsole-ESQ-CouchPotatoFB.jpg




Its like new, and will come with 2 games, Space Invaders and Pac-Man.


Nice dealing with you man, have a good evening.

Quite honestly, I think Sony has a ROUGH road ahead of them. Those people better LOVE the XBR8 because with the amount of insanely good products Samsung is pumping out at much cheaper prices, Sony may not be around much longer. Forget the Kuro comparison, I'd take the 7100 over the XBR8 any day. And that's not even going to be Samsung's flagship model or 2009. ;) It's going to be Samsung 9000 vs Sony XBR9 in 2009. And I'm willing to bet Samsung completely slaps Sony's flagship model in the face, performance AND price wise. :)

I agree the new samsung is going to be cheaper than the new XBR9, i think its 10 actually. samsungs tv's have always been cheaper than sony's. but as far as performance they might be pretty close. hometheater mags shootout between the kuro111, panasonic, A950, and XBR8, said the XBR8 was better than the samsung. ether way im looking forward to see what the samsung 9000 and sony XBR both offer.

hometheater mags shootout between the kuro111, panasonic, A950, and XBR8, said the XBR8 was better than the samsung. ether way im looking forward to see what the samsung 9000 and sony XBR both offer.

That is the review I was going to mention. Anyone who is interested in HDTVs should read it, as it is probably the most comprehensive and informative review I've read. And as the owner of a 2006 plasma that I absolutely love, I was more than a bit envious to read what all of these TVs are capable of :o

The review did pick the Kuro as the best TV overall. But the strides made by the LCDs, particularly the XBR8, cannot be overlooked. I have since read another review (Sound and Vision) where the reviewer says the XBR8 has the deepest blacks he's seen on ANY TV. But he still stopped short of giving it a "Kuro" kind of endorsement.

I'm a plasma guy, first and foremost, but I have read a few articles now saying that the new generation of LED LCDs have largely eliminated the traditional LCD issues. But the comments earlier about viewing angle are bang on - the reviewers were saying that shifting even one cushion away from dead centre on the sofa resulted in a noticeable drop in PQ. Pretty significant drawback if more than one person is watching.

I agree the new samsung is going to be cheaper than the new XBR9, i think its 10 actually. samsungs tv's have always been cheaper than sony's. but as far as performance they might be pretty close. hometheater mags shootout between the kuro111, panasonic, A950, and XBR8, said the XBR8 was better than the samsung. ether way im looking forward to see what the samsung 9000 and sony XBR both offer.

I agree XBR8 was better than Sammy 95, but we are not comparing apples to apples, here comparison is of a MBZ S CLASS TO ROLLS ROYCE, possibly, $3500 to $7000.

I agree XBR8 was better than Sammy 95, but we are not comparing apples to apples, here comparison is of a MBZ S CLASS TO ROLLS ROYCE, possibly, $3500 to $7000.

Yes, price is always an indicator of quality:eek: Fact is that any professional reviewer that has ever reviewed a 950 says it's the closest thing to a Kuro Elite than any other set.

Yes, price is always an indicator of quality:eek: Fact is that any professional reviewer that has ever reviewed a 950 says it's the closest thing to a Kuro Elite than any other set.

I never liked COLORS on that set.

I agree XBR8 was better than Sammy 95, but we are not comparing apples to apples, here comparison is of a MBZ S CLASS TO ROLLS ROYCE, possibly, $3500 to $7000.

Just because a Mercedes is priced the same as a Rolls Royce, doesn't make it a Rolls Royce. I've seen them both in person and can tell you the XBR8 is no Rolls. ;)

Yes, price is always an indicator of quality:eek: Fact is that any professional reviewer that has ever reviewed a 950 says it's the closest thing to a Kuro Elite than any other set.

Funny... I guess CNET, Ultimate AV Mag/Home Theater Mag and Sound and Vision must all be amateurs because they all conclude that the Kuro Elite is FAR superior to the 950.

That is the review I was going to mention. Anyone who is interested in HDTVs should read it, as it is probably the most comprehensive and informative review I've read. And as the owner of a 2006 plasma that I absolutely love, I was more than a bit envious to read what all of these TVs are capable of :o

The review did pick the Kuro as the best TV overall. But the strides made by the LCDs, particularly the XBR8, cannot be overlooked. I have since read another review (Sound and Vision) where the reviewer says the XBR8 has the deepest blacks he's seen on ANY TV. But he still stopped short of giving it a "Kuro" kind of endorsement.

I'm a plasma guy, first and foremost, but I have read a few articles now saying that the new generation of LED LCDs have largely eliminated the traditional LCD issues. But the comments earlier about viewing angle are bang on - the reviewers were saying that shifting even one cushion away from dead centre on the sofa resulted in a noticeable drop in PQ. Pretty significant drawback if more than one person is watching.

I was also thinking of this review but as I recall that only one Judge out of the four gave the Sony the top score. As you mention ofcourse, even slightly off-angle viewing results in noticeable degradation in PQ which is what is keeping LCD and the XBR8 from eclipsing the Kuro. Granted as companies spend more on R&D they may manage to eliminate this problem entirely. For example, take a look at TN LCD monitors and the S-IPS LCD monitors, you will see that the viewing angle is far superior on an IPS display. Likewise there may be another breakthrough that would further enhance viewing angles.

Crazy huh? I have many reasons for saything this and I think I'm entitled to talk about it since I own both TV's. I've had them side by side testing same image. Though the blacks are better on the Kuro, it aint by much (at least to the naked eye). though the menu looks nicer on the Kuro, the menu is SO much easier to navigate on the Panny. Same holds true for the controoler The lack of settings on the Kuro is simply brutal. (I'm sure we wouldn't be having this conversation if I had the elite). The picture on the Panny is so much richer, so much warmer and has more depth to it. At times the Kuro looks flat? It's so hard to say unless you had both TV's in your house on a daily basis. At times the Kuro looks fantastic, other times I'm not WOW'd by it. I'm sure If the Kuro was the only TV I owned, I would FREAK over it.

I don't want to spam the board with my website, but I will be taking pictures of both TV's side by side and I will actually be doing a video comparison. This is just from a regular person. I'm NO DNice of course, Just sharing my opinion.

If I had to do it all over again, I would of gotten the Elite.

The Elite is a beautiful set. I went from a calibrated Sony A3000 to the Elite and I am still in awe. Can't wait to get it calibrated. Trying to schedule Chad B.

Funny... I guess CNET, Ultimate AV Mag/Home Theater Mag and Sound and Vision must all be amateurs because they all conclude that the Kuro Elite is FAR superior to the 950.

I don't think he's disputing that. He's comparing an XBR8 to a 950.

I don't think he's disputing that. He's comparing an XBR8 to a 950.

If that is the case, then my apologies. Again, not saying the 950 is a bad TV but its not comparable to a Kuro Elite IMHO. I would argue the same case with my Panasonic Plasma: A good TV that represents good value for money but is simply not comparable to a Pioneer Elite.

Just because a Mercedes is priced the same as a Rolls Royce, doesn't make it a Rolls Royce. I've seen them both in person and can tell you the XBR8 is no Rolls. ;)

I agree! being twice as expensive does not make you a rolls or ferrari :D looks like after all my analogy is faltred.

Not using a plasma TV because it has a half-life is like not using your car because it might wear out the brakes or engine parts, or not wearing shoes because you don't want to wear down the souls.



Well this is actually why I ride my bike, and most of the time I go barefoot.

XBR 8 has about the response time of a snail, and bad input lag as well, it's also no good for playing 4 playered games because UNLIKE Plasmas and CRTs it has horrible off axis viewing.

Yes, price is always an indicator of quality:eek: Fact is that any professional reviewer that has ever reviewed a 950 says it's the closest thing to a Kuro Elite than any other set.

Just because a Mercedes is priced the same as a Rolls Royce, doesn't make it a Rolls Royce. I've seen them both in person and can tell you the XBR8 is no Rolls. ;)

In the HT shootout the XBR8 came if first place with the kuro in shadow detail and blacks. i was surprised to see that, i always thought samsung was the better tv. oh wait that must their marketing. hehe.

As I have said in a couple other threads led tech is one step forward, one big step back for lcds. They do some things very good, but also do some things very poorly.

Blacks were improved a bit, but off-axis viewing and uniformity (blooming) are far worse then convential lcds, even beaten by several cheap wal-mart brands here. These were areas that lcd badly needed to improve on, not get worse. Add in an irritating floating black level and the exact same motion performance and it starts to become a toss-up over whether its worth it over a standard CCFL model, let alone for a very large price increase

The kuros, on the other hand, are far more rounded displays and absolutely excellent accross the board.

And the move to 'edge lit' suggests that many of the benefits of led will be negated while keeping the drawbacks. We're seeing the start of yet another new gimmick in displays here that has little to do with PQ. With the edge-let models, companies aren't even calling them lcds anymore, despite the fact that the very clearly have liquid crystal panels. Instead their acting like its a brand new display tech like OLED, presumably to jack up prices. A bit misleading.

Sony is better than pioneer. But the kuro is better than sony's lcd.
Wat

I'm not a Sony fanboy, but what I've seen of LED LCD its surpassed any plasma today.

The times have changed.

Viewing angles.. backlight bleeding.. motion issues. All still very real. I'd take a good CCFL backlight LCD or LED without local dimming before wasting a big wad of cash on a broken technology. When they can do plasma viewing angles.. 800+lines of motion res without AMP and garbage like it and have enough dimming zones so they don't lose detail in dark scenes call me. Until then they are overpriced showoff pieces.

Wat

I think he was just saying that Sony beats Pioneer as a company, but Pioneer beats Sony in the tv department :D

Viewing angles.. backlight bleeding.. motion issues. All still very real. I'd take a good CCFL backlight LCD or LED without local dimming before wasting a big wad of cash on a broken technology. When they can do plasma viewing angles.. 800+lines of motion res without AMP and garbage like it and have enough dimming zones so they don't lose detail in dark scenes call me. Until then they are overpriced showoff pieces.
Not to say LCD doesn't have its issues, but my eyes don't lie.

These sets just look way better to me than any plasma.

Just have to see what the sells tell us.

Just have to see what the sells tell us.

Sales have already been higher for LCD. It most likely wont change with these newer ones if I had to guess. Good marketing, and seeing uncalibrated tvs in big box stores in torch mode under massive amounts of lighting that would never be found in a home environment, does wonders for LCD sales :rolleyes:

Not to say LCD doesn't have its issues, but my eyes don't lie.

These sets just look way better to me than any plasma.

Just have to see what the sells tell us.

Could you tell me just what exactly will "sells tell us"?? I don't think I've ever learned a thing from "the sells", so I'm really anxious to know what I missed or missing.

Could you tell me just what exactly will "sells tell us"?? I don't think I've ever learned a thing from "the sells", so I'm really anxious to know what I missed or missing.

LCD fanboys don't take the time for trivial things like not butchering the English language. They are too busy being distracted by the shiny, pretty lights and motion tricks that their overpriced toys use in an attempt to feign quality.

That may have been a little harsh. There are SOME lcds I would consider owning, if the Kuro did not exist.

LCD fanboys don't take the time for trivial things like not butchering the English language. They are too busy being distracted by the shiny, pretty lights and motion tricks that their overpriced toys use in an attempt to feign quality.

...lol...

That may have been a little harsh. There are SOME lcds I would consider owning, if the Kuro did not exist.

If I was rich and there was no Pioneer plasma, I would own the XBR8, but I'm not and the better and cheaper Pioneer does exist, so.....:D


.

I owned an XBR4 and was very very happy with it, outside of the ghosting, 7/10 black levels and just above average viewing angles (actually not too bad at all for an LCD).

I gave the XBR 8 a honest go, truly did. Spent a good 45 minutes with a calibrated unit straight up, side by side a Kuro in a "medium" lit room.

Regardless of the media, the Kuro produced the better image EVERY time. Granted, the difference wasn't chasmic, but it was certain. My usually disinterested second half agreed universally.

Both are fine, fine televisions, no doubt about it. That said, it's not even a question which is a BIT finer, IMO.

Happy Friday everyone.

James

I accidentally clicked on the LCD forum and I have to run away in disgust when they say the XBR8 is better than the Kuro and even the XBR4/6 is better than the 9G kuro. I am really wondering if LCD users have their retinas burned out by the bright backlight or is simply smoking some exotic stuff...if thats the case I really want some of whatever they are smokin!

Look I have an 46XBR4 and there is no comparison. The kuro is killing my tv in every category. I just want to cry right now because I wish I haven't brought the tv and waited on the kuro. :( I'm just really thinking about getting the 50 in financing it and be done with it.

Look I have an 46XBR4 and there is no comparison. The kuro is killing my tv in every category. I just want to cry right now because I wish I haven't brought the tv and waited on the kuro. :( I'm just really thinking about getting the 50 in financing it and be done with it.

Ha Ha. Speaking as a former XBR4 owner, I can feel your pain. I waited to get a great deal on a 6020 and just did it. Good luck with your 5020 quest.

You will NOT be disappointed!

James

Actually, if they were both the same size, I'd still go with the Panny. Believe it or not, size has nothing to do with my decision.

I just don't see it, but as long as you'd be happy.

XBR better than Kuro, lol.....especially the 4/6, roflmao

How did you come up with that number?

Pulled it out of thin air. I was just trying to illustrate a point. You seem to pay a lot more for a Pioneer to only get a little more in the end. I'm saying the proportions between what you pay vs. the benefits you actually see are not what most people would find attractive. And that's fine - Pioneer didn't spend a BILLION dollars to gear up their kuro program to convert the masses into videofiles. They did it to offer the absolute best plasma regardless of price, and believed that taking over the market of the ultra high fidelity videofreaks would be rewarding. We'll, I'm sure it was satisfying to achieve that idealistic goal, but whoever thought they could stay in business screwed up - ROYALLY!!! LOL

Bet people can't wait till those Panasonic kuros hit the market (have they come out yet?). If they are more reasonably priced than pioneers kuros I might just buy one. I always had my eye on teh Kuro. my wife and I got our 46 XXBR4 as a wedding gift last April. I even approached my bother in laws who bought it to ask if they'd feel weird at all if I flipped it and being guys they said absolutely not. End of the day I was looking at approx a grand to flip my in a box 46 XBr4 for a 50" non-elite Kuro. To me just wasn't worth it. I was going Elite or nothing. Plus once I realize how much light we get in our corner house (with a million windows) my decision was firm. Glare would have been a nightmare on a plasma plus even though they now last longer than our lives practically I wouldn't have felt too good having to run a plasma with all the picture settings jacked up. During the day I now view my custom Vivid setting on the XBR and feel good about it. Be happy for me :)

If plasma is still around in the next few years when I finish my basement I'll definitely go that route (unless the new OLED's are reasonably priced b/c those sets are going make every other technology extinct – unless plasma or lcd can figure out how to completely shut off a pixel for ultimate blacks. Well, lcd doing that would be enough to make plasma extinct. Phosphor burning devices are already endangered species ;)
But just say I had a finished basement right now with overhead projector and 120” motorized screen and I needed a tv to setup for regular viewing, I’d probably go to the Brick and buy whatever their cheapest or plainest 50” Panasonic plasma was, just like my pal did. I’d probably spend less than $2k CAD and if it gave me the picture of his now 1+ year old (likely 2+ year old model) that would be fantastic. How much is a non-elite 50” Pioneer kuro these days? If I could get it for an extra $500 CAD I’d probably do it, if anything just to match my pioneer equipment that’s going downstairs. Anything more than $500 though, I wouldn’t do it – unless I was paying 25% more to actually get something like a 15-20% NOTICEABLE improvement in picture. I don’t see how that is possible with the kind of images those run of the f’in mill Panasonics are giving!!! :P

Just enjoy your kuro’s and been happy. Why even bother getting so worked up over what a sony XBR owner thinks?????? Lol Let ignorance be bliss for them and feel good you can hold your chin up a little higher ;)

EDIT - BTW I'm not at all suggesting that SONY's are a better buy that Pioneers. I think the pricing for some of the new ones are crazy. When my bro-in-laws bought our 46 XBR the model was already over a year and a half old/current and talk of the new XBR's was already out. So my in a box XBR4 last april was worth $2200 CAD. I was looking at a thousand bucks with tax all in to have my in a box XBR in my living room turn into an in a box 50" pioneer plasma the next day. I have no idea what the model number of the pioneer was I was looking at (I think there was only one).

Meh, I hear this same bickering in my car forums. "My Mustang makes more power than your camaro" - "Well what difference does it make b/c my Camaro is FASTER than your mustang" - "well, that's only because you are running slicks, without them you wouldnt' have a chance" - "Well, you are running a blower. Run N/A and my engine will murder yours" blah blah blah.

It really starts to sound like women do after awhile... :S

Pulled it out of thin air.

I'm glad you answered the question in the first sentence because I didn't read the rest after confirming that was a BS number. LOL

Does anyone see the irony in this thread?

I dont think, panasonic plasma will be able to fill gap/opportunity left by pioneer, as panasonic has been always for value, not for quality. Some how pioneer got stuck with quality with very high ticket items, leading to their demise. I see sony following same motto till now. More so, their are news afloat, that CA might ban energy hogging plasmas, are effecting people's psyche.

Sooner or later, pioneer will start with their lcd and how long panasonic can resist that surge of lcds, have to be seen.

I dont think, panasonic plasma will be able to fill gap/opportunity left by pioneer, as panasonic has been always for value, not for quality. Some how pioneer got stuck with quality with very high ticket items, leading to their demise. I see sony following same motto till now. More so, their are news afloat, that CA might ban energy hogging plasmas, are effecting people's psyche.

Sooner or later, pioneer will start with their lcd and how long panasonic can resist that surge of lcds, have to be seen.

I disagree. I think they try to do both but Panasonic is definitely more price-conscious than Pioneer. They have a line of high end products but they also have a line of low end products. At the same time however, they don't want to price models that will only attract 1% of customers (like Pioneer does). What Panasonic wants to try and do I feel is create a high end product (i.e. PZ800 or PZ850 series unit) and price it at a reasonable level so that maybe 5-10% of buyers will purchase one instead of 1%. They could have also gone along with THX certification for the PZ850 but that might have pushed the price to KURO levels. Does it mean Panasonic is wholly concerned with price? Not really... However they want to try and blend price with performance. Pioneer on the other hand, just assumes that people who want perfection will pay whatever price is required but the problem is that there are very few of those customers (especially in these times) which is why their TV business failed.

After all, this is the company with a 103 inch and 150 inch Plasma TV

Does anyone see the irony in this thread?

No what is it?:)

I think he was just saying that Sony beats Pioneer as a company, but Pioneer beats Sony in the tv department :D
Yea, I guess so if by beating he means "bleeding less.":D

...Not using a plasma TV because it has a half-life is like not using your car because it might wear out the brakes or engine parts, or not wearing shoes because you don't want to wear down the souls...

Wait....shoes have 'souls' ? When did this happen? I'm thinking of all the horrible things I've done to my shoes... *Shudder*

Crazy huh? I have many reasons for saything this and I think I'm entitled to talk about it since I own both TV's. I've had them side by side testing same image. Though the blacks are better on the Kuro, it aint by much (at least to the naked eye). though the menu looks nicer on the Kuro, the menu is SO much easier to navigate on the Panny. Same holds true for the controoler The lack of settings on the Kuro is simply brutal. (I'm sure we wouldn't be having this conversation if I had the elite). The picture on the Panny is so much richer, so much warmer and has more depth to it. At times the Kuro looks flat? It's so hard to say unless you had both TV's in your house on a daily basis. At times the Kuro looks fantastic, other times I'm not WOW'd by it. I'm sure If the Kuro was the only TV I owned, I would FREAK over it.

I don't want to spam the board with my website, but I will be taking pictures of both TV's side by side and I will actually be doing a video comparison. This is just from a regular person. I'm NO DNice of course, Just sharing my opinion.

If I had to do it all over again, I would of gotten the Elite.

I'm sooo confused now. I was thinking about getting the 50 kuro today but after reading this i'm kinda confused. Which panny do you have?

Crazy huh? I have many reasons for saything this and I think I'm entitled to talk about it since I own both TV's. I've had them side by side testing same image. Though the blacks are better on the Kuro, it aint by much (at least to the naked eye). though the menu looks nicer on the Kuro, the menu is SO much easier to navigate on the Panny. Same holds true for the controoler The lack of settings on the Kuro is simply brutal. (I'm sure we wouldn't be having this conversation if I had the elite). The picture on the Panny is so much richer, so much warmer and has more depth to it. At times the Kuro looks flat? It's so hard to say unless you had both TV's in your house on a daily basis. At times the Kuro looks fantastic, other times I'm not WOW'd by it. I'm sure If the Kuro was the only TV I owned, I would FREAK over it.

I don't want to spam the board with my website, but I will be taking pictures of both TV's side by side and I will actually be doing a video comparison. This is just from a regular person. I'm NO DNice of course, Just sharing my opinion.

If I had to do it all over again, I would of gotten the Elite.

Maybe in bright scenes the difference in black levels between the Panasonic and Pioneer is hard to discern. In dark scenes however (where black levels matter more), the difference is day and night. The Panasonic's black looks like gray compared to KURO. This coming from an owner of a Panasonic 58.

I'm sooo confused now. I was thinking about getting the 50 kuro today but after reading this i'm kinda confused. Which panny do you have?

This place will do that to you, that is why it is best to try to go look at them, play with the settings at the store (if they let you) and decide for yourself.

This place will do that to you, that is why it is best to try to go look at them, play with the settings at the store (if they let you) and decide for yourself.

Yes because of right now I want to pull the trigger and get the tv but at the same time i'm like should I just get the 50G10 at a cheaper price

I'm glad you answered the question in the first sentence because I didn't read the rest after confirming that was a BS number. LOL

Oooo... good one. Sure got me there. +1 for you.

Back to your safe & cozy bubble then.

I dont think, panasonic plasma will be able to fill gap/opportunity left by pioneer, as panasonic has been always for value, not for quality. Some how pioneer got stuck with quality with very high ticket items, leading to their demise. I see sony following same motto till now. More so, their are news afloat, that CA might ban energy hogging plasmas, are effecting people's psyche.

Sooner or later, pioneer will start with their lcd and how long panasonic can resist that surge of lcds, have to be seen.

I’ve actually been a pioneer flag waver for decades, love all my products I’ve ever bought from them, and finally started selling their products in 2002 b/c I couldn't afford to keep upgrading my entire home theatre systems every 5-6 years! ha.

Although my original pioneer equipment is built like a tank, fact is NOBODY is building the kind of quality they may have been known for. SONY is a mere shadow of its self, and back in early 2000 the gusy I sold pioneer with all joked that the elite's needed their 2-year warrantly b/c the product was being built like ****. But in their defense, so too was everybody elses. The Marantz stuff we sold was absolute garbage (made me sick anytime I sold it). Sony was about this time really starting to fall from grace in terms of reliability and so too performance.

So if anyone thinks that you are getting a superior built product and reliability by going Pioneer over Panasonic, well as Edward Rooney put it, you are "Sooooooooooooorily mistaken"

Let's face it nobody builds anything the way they use too. Every durable material right down to the screws and solder that holds the boards together has been subbed out to the cheapest material.

well here is a review of the european equivalent of xbr 8 http://www.trustedreviews.com/tvs/review/2009/02/04/Sony-Bravia-KDL-55X4500-55in-LCD-TV/p1 and european equivalent of the flagship pioneer kuro plasma http://www.trustedreviews.com/tvs/review/2008/08/06/Pioneer-Kuro-PDP-LX5090-50in-Plasma-TV/p1 and the new panasonic G10 neo plasma http://www.trustedreviews.com/tvs/review/2009/04/01/Panasonic-Viera-TX-P46G10-46in-Plasma-TV/p1.

well lets face it the panasonic cannot match the pioneer kuro ,while sony matches the kuro or almost matches it.
once pioneer kuro are gone from the market i guess there want be a serious challenge from the plasmas towards the xbr9 and xbr10,unless samsung can pull it off with their new 09 lineup.

I dont think, panasonic plasma will be able to fill gap/opportunity left by pioneer, as panasonic has been always for value, not for quality.

I don't know about that. Panasonic products, from TVs to phones to razors to cordless drills, are typically at or near the top of their class in performance and quality.

Ahhh these threads...

Guess I am a Fanboy as I opted for the XBR8 over Kuro Elite.

I wasn't sure about the styling when I bought it but I tell you what, after you have it in your house it looks incredible. The Pioneer looks good in a generic flatscreen like all the rest kind of way.

Look very closely at the design and build quality of the set. I am really quite impressed. From the lit Sony Logo (can be turned off), to the floating LCD's for power and other functions and the high build quality from the housing and semi-matte screen. It can't be touched....Sorry. These things ARE important to me.

Moving on to the picture quality, we all know I posted pics before and its dynamite. It has the best blu-ray picture of any set I have seen. IMO IMO :D

Build quality, uniqueness, superb picture quality=winner.

The famous shoot-out. 9.0 for XBR8 and 9.5 for Elite. That sure sounds like it comes down to preference to me...

Now putting all of that aside...

Buy what you like but the XBR8 can hold its own against any set out there...

Rick

I accidentally clicked on the LCD forum and I have to run away in disgust when they say the XBR8 is better than the Kuro and even the XBR4/6 is better than the 9G kuro. I am really wondering if LCD users have their retinas burned out by the bright backlight or is simply smoking some exotic stuff...if thats the case I really want some of whatever they are smokin!

OMG, OMG, flame bait, get out your flame retardant jacket, it's going to be a hot one :rolleyes:

Seriously, I'm with CETA on this one. It's really just personal preference for the most part. If I'm right CETA, you couldn't fit a 60" in your setup, so you went with a 55" Sony. Although I am curious if would have still chosen the Sony if Pioneer came in 55"? No wrong answer here, just curious. As I have mentioned several times before, each have their own strengths and weaknesses, I went with the Elite since it was cheaper, larger, and had a gloss screen (not a huge fan of matte myself, just a personal preference I guess). I would be nice if it was brighter, since brighter generally helps with "pop", but I can live with its faults. No panel is perfect, even the current best :o

Again, the XBR9 is NOT an upgrade to the 8, it's an upgrade of the 6. We will have to wait to see if the "10" is the future successor of the 8, but the 9 certainly is not (8-bit color with NO LED)...

OMG, OMG, flame bait, get out your flame retardant jacket, it's going to be a hot one :rolleyes:

Seriously, I'm with CETA on this one. It's really just personal preference for the most part. If I'm right CETA, you couldn't fit a 60" in your setup, so you went with a 55" Sony. Although I am curious if would have still chosen the Sony if Pioneer came in 55"? No wrong answer here, just curious. As I have mentioned several times before, each have their own strengths and weaknesses, I went with the Elite since it was cheaper, larger, and had a gloss screen (not a huge fan of matte myself, just a personal preference I guess). I would be nice if it was brighter, since brighter generally helps with "pop", but I can live with its faults. No panel is perfect, even the current best :o

Again, the XBR9 is NOT an upgrade to the 8, it's an upgrade of the 6. We will have to wait to see if the "10" is the future successor of the 8, but the 9 certainly is not (8-bit color with NO LED)...

That is correct and good memory. It was not that I could not fit a 60 but I would need to purchase a new piece of furniture. The Sony hangs on the optional pole mounts on my BDI stand and I can still fit my monster center underneath..

I own a Pioneer (now in the bedroom) and demoed a 6020. I have said it before, the Pioneer (much more so the Elites), are great displays.

I am glad I went the different direction. It's a classy looking set built to the highest standards and it looks great in my room. I am blown away every time I watch a blu-ray disc and especially a blu concert where my audio gets to come into the "total" equation as well.

Of course, the pic quality is first, but thru careful choices, every piece of furniture and electronics has an ultra modern look in my room.

Now I just have to move to get it all to shine and allow my speakers to breath..

I just don't know why many have to gospel on one set and hate all others. It's bizarre to me...

Rick

...but Pioneer beats Sony in the tv department :D

...and eventually dies from exhaustion.

...and eventually dies from exhaustion.

all TV techs will die eventually but not all can go out on top. :D

I'm sooo confused now. I was thinking about getting the 50 kuro today but after reading this i'm kinda confused. Which panny do you have?

I would still recommend the Kuro hands down. The 850 is a great set, but the Kuro is capable of much more even with the loss of settings.

Another big thing to remember is that he has not had the Kuro professionally calibrated with controlcal yet.
And also, he is using The "Standard" A/V mode on the kuro which does not provide the accuracy and image that a calibrated movie mode will.

Ahhh these threads...

Look very closely at the design and build quality of the set. I am really quite impressed. From the lit Sony Logo (can be turned off), to the floating LCD's for power and other functions and the high build quality from the housing and semi-matte screen. It can't be touched....Sorry. These things ARE important to me.



You do know that the "build quality" you speak of is made in mexico with the samsungs right? Personally, I thought the build quality of my XBR4 (floating glass look) was no better than a plastic samsung.
but thats just my opinion.

Could you tell me just what exactly will "sells tell us"?? I don't think I've ever learned a thing from "the sells", so I'm really anxious to know what I missed or missing.

Oldcband, you did not answer the question, and I'm NOT referring to the spelling in this post...

all TV techs will die eventually but not all can go out on top. :D

I meant Pioneer as a TV manufacturer.

I meant Pioneer as a TV manufacturer.

Well at least you didn't dispute the "going out on top" part. ;)

You do know that the "build quality" you speak of is made in mexico with the samsungs right? Personally, I thought the build quality of my XBR4 (floating glass look) was no better than a plastic samsung.
but thats just my opinion.

I think the XBR8 (the set he was talking about) is made in Japan but in all honesty, build quality isn't a function of where the set is assembled. I've seen Lenovo thinkpads and Apple laptops and they have excellent build quality but they are assembled in China. I could say the same thing about Yamaha and Pioneer AVRs (made in Malaysia) so it's not JUST about where the set is assembled, its the quality standards that are in place at that particular plant. That being said, I do agree that these days things made in Japan are generally of higher quality than their counterparts but I doubt the difference is day and night. The Japanese manufactured components however may use better parts and they may include those "little things" that make the product better.

Well at least you didn't dispute the "going out on top" part. ;)

Just because I didn't does not mean that I agree with your conclusion. Here is a deal: I will concede the "on top" part if you agree that in this case the best engineering specs did not equal the best value.

As I wrote in another post, it is ironic that the best died first. Most companies would rather stay in business than being on top. I don't like analogies but this one I can't resist: Would prefer to make 50k a year or be unemployed at 100k?

Just because I didn't does not mean that I agree with your conclusion. Here is a deal: I will concede the "on top" part if you agree that in this case the best engineering specs did not equal the best value.

As I wrote in another post, it is ironic that the best died first. Most companies would rather stay in business than being on top. I don't like analogies but this one I can't resist: Would prefer to make 50k a year or be unemployed at 100k?

You didn't need to agree to my conclusion as it's had the majority of votes by well respected people in the industry.

and when did Pioneer become unemployed? lol and how can you be unemployed and still make $100k? Your analogies need a little work. :p

And if you can show me any post where I said the best engineering specs equaled the best value then we can go down that road. I'll be waiting, tap tap tap.

You didn't need to agree to my conclusion as it's had the majority of votes by well respected people in the industry.

and when did Pioneer become unemployed? lol and how can you be unemployed and still make $100k? Your analogies need a little work. :p

And if you can show me any post where I said the best engineering specs equaled the best value then we can go down that road. I'll be waiting, tap tap tap.

You make it harder than it should be. I could rip through the logic or rather lack of it like a sharp knife can cut through butter but I won't because I already know what this would lead to. So, if you want to check this encounter with me in your win column, be my guest.

You make it harder than it should be. I could rip through the logic or rather lack of it like a sharp knife can cut through butter but I won't because I already know what this would lead to. So, if you want to check this encounter with me in your win column, be my guest.

Not here for any "wins", just the facts and truths and of course to share ideas and opinions.

You make it harder than it should be. I could rip through the logic or rather lack of it like a sharp knife can cut through butter but I won't because I already know what this would lead to. So, if you want to check this encounter with me in your win column, be my guest.

Ramazur, aka "Village Idiot #2", w/the cuts like a butter-knife logic that is so convoluted no one can quite grasp or understand. The Confucius of AVS, that can't quite decide if he should try to mold this Forum into a philosophical political rant or an AA group therapy session. Have you seen the XBR8?? Have you seen the Pioneer Elite G9?? If not, please exit. If so, please state an opinion.

I don't know which thread to post this in since it seems every thread needs it.

A wise poster once said:

Here is a quick test: How many of you combatants changed your LCD vs. plasma preference after any such debate in the past? I would bet my paycheck against a cup of coffee that the answer is nobody. Is there an unbiased jury you are trying to sway? If you are not trying to win someone over, what is the purpose of this LCD-plasma circus as the outcome is known before you start and always the same? Did you ever think of getting away from that computer and helping a senior to go shopping or cut her grass?

While on the subject of the same outcome, Einstein defined insanity as "Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results". You may want to keep it in mind before the next round of LCD vs. plasma

Sadly it seems this poster has fallen prey to this so called "insanity" himself :(

^^^
That wiseman you speak of is just sharing his enlightenment with us.

He bought the same TV I bought.

Not to say LCD doesn't have its issues, but my eyes don't lie.

These sets just look way better to me than any plasma.

Just have to see what the sells tell us.

Have you learned what "the sells" told you??...tap, tap, tap...still waiting.

I don't know which thread to post this in since it seems every thread needs it.

A wise poster once said:



Sadly it seems this poster has fallen prey to this so called "insanity" himself :(

If you are referring to me, don't be sad. I have several reasons to be here and none has to do with reading opinions as they, by definition, are worthless. The informational component is nearly zero and diluted by the crap aka personal attacks, sophomoric bickering, cute "humor", and a heavy dose of incomprehensible English.

The definition of insanity doesn't apply to me as I never attempted to change anyone's views for a simple reason that I really don't care what those views are to begin with. If the rest of you would just return the favor we will all be better off for it.

The informational component is nearly zero and diluted by the crap aka personal attacks, sophomoric bickering, cute "humor", and a heavy dose of incomprehensible English.


I took it as a compliment towards you.

You need no defending of yourself.:)

I took it as a compliment towards you.

You need no defending of yourself.:)

A don't know if it was a compliment but I am sure that it was not hostile. My response was prompted by the Sadly sentence.

A don't know if it was a compliment but I am sure that it was not hostile. My response was prompted by the Sadly sentence.
No I don't believe he goes down that road. But remember he's human. His investment is plasma.:)

Do you think that Pioneer Kuro plasmas will be one day be as forgotten among people who fancy themselves as being current videophiles as Wilt Chamberlain is forgotten by people who fancy themselves as being current basketballphiles?

Do you think that Pioneer Kuro plasmas will be one day be as forgotten among people who fancy themselves as being current videophiles as Wilt Chamberlain is forgotten by people who fancy themselves as being current basketballphiles?

The question is rethorical as people eventually forget everything. Some will mourn for a while and probably remain in the state of shock by the abrupt demise of what they believe was the greatest TV product line ever.

My rethorical question is: Will the "Kuro is the greatest" professional reviewers ever confess that they knew it ain't so but were too intimidated by the popularity of this urban myth - "The King has no cloths" syndrome - to say so and risk their credibility.

If you think that is just too crazy of an idea, let me remind you of the myth that credit cards - as opposed to the debit cards - are good for the economy. This analogy is not an invitation to derail this thread , so, please, do not respond to this example. It is only meant to show how the "professionals" can lie and the consumers buy a lie for so long.

Now we know how wrong they all have been.

The question is rethorical as people eventually forget everything. Some will mourn for a while and probably remain in the state of shock by the abrupt demise of what they believe was the greatest TV product line ever.

My rethorical question is: Will the "Kuro is the greatest" professional reviewers ever confess that they knew it ain't so but were too intimidated by the popularity of this urban myth - "The King has no cloths" syndrome - to say so and risk their credibility.

If you think that is just too crazy of an idea, let me remind you of the myth that credit cards - as opposed to the debit cards - are good for the economy. This analogy is not an invitation to derail this thread , so, please, do not respond to this example. It is only meant to show how the "professionals" can lie and the consumers buy a lie for so long.

Now we know how wrong they all have been.

wow, you really have really let kuro control you. :p

It's only a TV mamazur. :cool:

The question is rethorical as people eventually forget everything. Some will mourn for a while and probably remain in the state of shock by the abrupt demise of what they believe was the greatest TV product line ever.

My rethorical question is: Will the "Kuro is the greatest" professional reviewers ever confess that they knew it ain't so but were too intimidated by the popularity of this urban myth - "The King has no cloths" syndrome - to say so and risk their credibility.

If you think that is just too crazy of an idea, let me remind you of the myth that credit cards - as opposed to the debit cards - are good for the economy. This analogy is not an invitation to derail this thread , so, please, do not respond to this example. It is only meant to show how the "professionals" can lie and the consumers buy a lie for so long.

Now we know how wrong they all have been.

ROTFL!!!!!!
So all the reviewers were lying????
Thats about as mature as losing a football game and claiming saying "they cheated!".
On the other hand, you may be right. I am sure the reviewers were intimidated by the huge profit machine that is Kuro!!
Oh wait, the Kuro's never even made a profit. So I guess thats not possible.

get real man!

I love my XBR8 but I do have a sense of humor :D

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/sony_releases_new_stupid_piece_of

Rick

A don't know if it was a compliment but I am sure that it was not hostile. My response was prompted by the Sadly sentence.It was a post you made a long time ago that I get reminded of constantly when reading this forum. Obviously since I remembered it after so long, I found it to be an important post containing wisdom that seems to elude the majority here.

As for the "sad" part. Well you promised :( And I think it does apply, IMO of course....

On the other hand, you may be right. I am sure the reviewers were intimidated by the huge profit machine that is Kuro!!
Oh wait, the Kuro's never even made a profit. So I guess thats not possible.

get real man!

Profit is not the only reason why a "professional" may decide to sell his soul and toe the line. Ridicule by your peers is the single, most powerful intimidator of all as witnessed in the global warming debate (Please, let's not go there as a point of debate here). Another way to intimidate is by ending one's statements with Period.

Profit is not the only reason why a "professional" may decide to sell his soul and toe the line. Ridicule by your peers is the single, most powerful intimidator of all as witnessed in the global warming debate (Please, let's not go there as a point of debate here). Another way to intimidate is by ending one's statements with Period.

So is your stance that some (or all) professional reviewers that rank the Kuro as tops are selling their souls and toeing the line?

So is your stance that some (or all) professional reviewers that rank the Kuro as tops are selling their souls and toeing the line?

It must be one HUGE conspiracy if thats true.
The funny thing is that most of the reviews I have read were from sites that advertise Samsung LCD's like crazy.

There will always be those that will not give credit where credit is due, simply because of thier own purchase justification.

In the future, these same ones will probably try to discredit OLED if it comes to us in big sizes.
These individuals only slow-down (if not stop altogether) the progression of flat-panel tech.

Yeah, the television review business sure is brutal.

I know I wouldn't want the HD Guru after me for besmirching the good name of his favorite product. I shiver at the mere thought.

Yeah, the television review business sure is brutal.

I know I wouldn't want the HD Guru after me for besmirching the good name of his favorite product. I shiver at the mere thought.

look at what some of these guys did to Geoffrey Morrison (home theater mag reviewer) over at theb LCD forum.
I found it pretty insulting to him that they were accusing him of bias for simply doing his job as a reviewer and telling it like it is.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15637400#post15637400

What I find interesting, is that the people that post in these threads, post ONLY in these threads, which can only mean one thing... they like arguing. :p

What I find interesting, is that the people that post in these threads, post ONLY in these threads, which can only mean one thing... they like arguing. :p

I disagree with that. ;) :D

Yes, price is always an indicator of quality:eek: Fact is that any professional reviewer that has ever reviewed a 950 says it's the closest thing to a Kuro Elite than any other set.

um no.
The panasonic premieres are.
Then the new Neo pdp TC-P50G10 after that.
Then the XBR8.
Then the newer samsung ultra thins (7000,7100,etc)
then maybe the 950, but I think there still might be a few above it.

I disagree with that. ;) :D

Meant to say "The majority of people that post in these threads". :o

I thought that most reviewers felt the XBR8 was the closest LCD to a Kuro, but price being the deal breaker?

Meant to say "The majority of people that post in these threads". :o

Darnit, I wanted to be argumentative and you took my thunder away. :D

I thought that most reviewers felt the XBR8 was the closest LCD to a Kuro, but price being the deal breaker?

indeed! screw u both sony and pioneer:mad:

um no.
The panasonic premieres are.
Then the new Neo pdp TC-P50G10 after that.
Then the XBR8.
Then the newer samsung ultra thins (7000,7100,etc)
then maybe the 950, but I think there still might be a few above it.

well if u are talking about performance
xbr 8 is at the top.

well if u are talking about performance
xbr 8 is at the top.

yes, the top of the LCD list.

yes, the top of the LCD list.

well are u saying G10 is better then XBR8 have a look at this review of european xbr8 http://www.trustedreviews.com/tvs/review/2009/02/04/Sony-Bravia-KDL-55X4500-55in-LCD-TV/p5

european G10 http://www.trustedreviews.com/tvs/review/2009/04/01/Panasonic-Viera-TX-P46G10-46in-Plasma-TV/p3

One review. From a Euro mag. That has the "equivalent" of our version; they may not have precisely the same models.

Panasonic is the next best thing to the Kuro, especially considering value (Premier series aside). Have fun with your $7,000 toy that uses 2nd generation LED local dimming tech.

I posted in the plasma forum after I saw a new xbr8 in one of my customers homes today.

I am not a plasma fanboy, and was ready to purchase a new a650 sammy or sony xbr6 to replace an old 32" crt in a bedroom.

If this xbr8 is the top of the line lcd, then lcd has got a problem. As I stated in the other forum, I would not trade my 50" 720p panny plasma for the xbr8 I saw today! As good as a kuro? LOL These reviewers must be getting a kickback from the manufacturers of these sets to give them good ratings!

I wanted to buy a new lcd, but to me it does not look natural on the picture like a plasma does.....


I just don't understand how lcd's are completely dominating the hdtv market now.... to me all plasmas look way better in picture quality and motion on the screen.... and I have NEVER had any ir or green streaking trails on the screen of any of my t.v.'s They don't get hot, buzz (I live at 5500' altitude) have flashlighting, or poor viewing angles.

It reminds me of other superior technologies that were killed by superior marketing by inferior products.... beta lost to vhs, hd dvd lost to blu ray, and now plasma is losing to lcd.

If you spend enough money on marketing, you can sell manure to a cattle rancher.... I trust my eyes and my eyes do not like lcd.

I just don't understand how lcd's are completely dominating the hdtv market now.

Its because of plasmas flawed ABL feature.:)

Its because of plasmas flawed ABL feature.:)

It's not flawed on my set and from reports from enthusiasts to experts doesn't appear to be a flaw on many others either. But I guess we're going to hear another story about your flawed plasma experience about 5 years ago. :rolleyes:

Its because of plasmas flawed ABL feature.:)

More FUD and misinformation. You're making quite a career out of doing this. Do you work for an LCD Mfg'er or related business? How come you see all these wierd strange things on a top-tier plasma TV that no other actual owner or professional reviewer has seen??

Also, still waiting to learn what those XBR8 LCD sales you mentioned were supposed to teach us. The only thing I could come up with is that if sales were good then maybe this country is slowly getting out of our economic slump and more folks have the bread to fork out for a premium priced display. What do "the sells" tell you?

Its because of plasmas flawed ABL feature.:)

If thats the biggest defect you can think of then Plasma is light years above LCD.
The ABL is not a visbile thing on a kuro or one of todays top-end pannys. It only affects a majority white/very light colored screen by decreasing the average brightness. And this change is not instant or visible. You can't see it happening. the key word is average brightness.
If you were to ask a regular plasma owner about the ABL, most likely they would have to look it up and find out what the heck you are talking about.

The ability to blast white beyond any calibrated benefit is only a defect in the minds of those who think it is benefitial.
So if thats the big gripe on plasmas, then heaven help LCD.

The ABL is not a visbile thing on a kuro or one of todays top-end pannys. It only affects a majority white/very light colored screen by decreasing the average brightness.

Yes it is, ABL is the biggest Achilles heel of plasma displays and it's easy to see in action. Animation and winter sports bring it out. This is ONE area where I agree with oldcband and one reason why I lost interest in the new Panasonic plasmas. On the Kuro it isn't as bad because of the low black level but on the Panasonics contrast ratio drops dramatically because of this "feature"

Either Panasonic fixes or improves on this soon or expect them to be extinct, mark my words.

...then heaven help LCD.

And then there were three.

Based on all the evidence so far, it is plasma, not LCDs, that is in a desperate need of divine intervention. Let's pray.

Pioneer must have done it and the Voice said: Abandon all hope and switch to LCDs! And they did leaving behind the faithful in shock and dismay.

Yes it is, ABL is the biggest Achilles heel of plasma displays and it's easy to see in action. Animation and winter sports bring it out. This is ONE area where I agree with oldcband and one reason why I lost interest in the new Panasonic plasmas. On the Kuro it isn't as bad because of the low black level but on the Panasonics contrast ratio drops dramatically because of this "feature"

Either Panasonic fixes or improves on this soon or expect them to be extinct, mark my words.
Wow Patrick!

From all your rips on me and this has always been my major gripe on plasma.

Heck I bought a plasma first because I liked the PQ better.

Honestly I can't believe it. Do you realize what kind of heat I've taken from the guys above you?
Just have to say thanks for your honesty.

BTW: Where you wrote the "ONE area" where you agree with me, its really the only area I've had problems with plasma and the reason I won't own one.

Yes it is, ABL is the biggest Achilles heel of plasma displays and it's easy to see in action. Animation and winter sports bring it out. This is ONE area where I agree with oldcband and one reason why I lost interest in the new Panasonic plasmas. On the Kuro it isn't as bad because of the low black level but on the Panasonics contrast ratio drops dramatically because of this "feature"

Either Panasonic fixes or improves on this soon or expect them to be extinct, mark my words.

From my understand and X-rox posts, the ABL limits AVERAGE brightness.
The TV doesnt go bright and then automatically the limiter kicks in and drops the brighness. The ABL limits the brightness beforehand, hense it was never beyond the ABL limit point to begin with. So there is no brightness change visible.

And then there were three.

Based on all the evidence so far, it is plasma, not LCDs, that is in a desperate need of divine intervention. Let's pray.

Pioneer must have done it and the Voice said: Abandon all hope and switch to LCDs! And they did leaving behind the faithful in shock and dismay.

You crack me up. I sure hope you don't take yourself very seriously and I know you don't like analogies but sure like telling fairy tells. Grimm brothers move over. :D

Imho, 55XBR8 is the best looking LCD out there, but that does not mean it is perfect. How it compares to plasma? diff story. I like the brightness better, rest is subjective and objective.

kuros and xbr8 will be pretty soon history along with 10 bit panels, and we will be limited to 8 bit and fighting over them, which one is better

Marketing is just one of multiple points that have to balance out, one thing you didn't mention is production cost. Superior technology, that is one that excels in what it was envisioned or designed to do, is only one factor; don't have the others portions and your product may fail in the market, that being marketing & distribution.

That's pretty much Vizio's success story.

Recall, an LCD TV is just an LCD monitor with a receiver and added inputs. A factory that tools to make LCDs can sell to the TV, desktop monitor and laptop markets. The same technology is also used on different scales, on cellphones, and pretty much anywhere a screen is used, from electronic picture frames to digital cameras.

Thus, LCD manufacturers, even if hypothetically the cost to make a 40" TV is the same as plasma, can produce a scaled down version of their product to use in different markets, and thus diversified, reduce their risk, and have a bigger market for their produce.

When was the last time you plasma technology on a computer, desktop or laptop?






I posted in the plasma forum after I saw a new xbr8 in one of my customers homes today.

I am not a plasma fanboy, and was ready to purchase a new a650 sammy or sony xbr6 to replace an old 32" crt in a bedroom.

If this xbr8 is the top of the line lcd, then lcd has got a problem. As I stated in the other forum, I would not trade my 50" 720p panny plasma for the xbr8 I saw today! As good as a kuro? LOL These reviewers must be getting a kickback from the manufacturers of these sets to give them good ratings!

I wanted to buy a new lcd, but to me it does not look natural on the picture like a plasma does.....


I just don't understand how lcd's are completely dominating the hdtv market now.... to me all plasmas look way better in picture quality and motion on the screen.... and I have NEVER had any ir or green streaking trails on the screen of any of my t.v.'s They don't get hot, buzz (I live at 5500' altitude) have flashlighting, or poor viewing angles.

It reminds me of other superior technologies that were killed by superior marketing by inferior products.... beta lost to vhs, hd dvd lost to blu ray, and now plasma is losing to lcd.

If you spend enough money on marketing, you can sell manure to a cattle rancher.... I trust my eyes and my eyes do not like lcd.

Ahhh these threads...

Guess I am a Fanboy as I opted for the XBR8 over Kuro Elite.

I wasn't sure about the styling when I bought it but I tell you what, after you have it in your house it looks incredible. The Pioneer looks good in a generic flatscreen like all the rest kind of way.

Look very closely at the design and build quality of the set. I am really quite impressed. From the lit Sony Logo (can be turned off), to the floating LCD's for power and other functions and the high build quality from the housing and semi-matte screen. It can't be touched....Sorry. These things ARE important to me.

Moving on to the picture quality, we all know I posted pics before and its dynamite. It has the best blu-ray picture of any set I have seen. IMO IMO :D

Build quality, uniqueness, superb picture quality=winner.

The famous shoot-out. 9.0 for XBR8 and 9.5 for Elite. That sure sounds like it comes down to preference to me...

Now putting all of that aside...

Buy what you like but the XBR8 can hold its own against any set out there...

Rick

1. That is your opinion and I find the abr styling atrocious
2. Lit sony emblem, not sure of the draw for that...I would never want any extra light on the front panel
3. How did you come to the conclusio nthat your xbr8 is better built than Kuro's?
4. So the xbr8 is more expensive with a lower overall IQ.
5. Most Importantly....you are happy and that's all that matters.

I just don't understand how lcd's are completely dominating the hdtv market now

Continue to read my post and you will:)

Continue to read my post and you will:)

McDonald's dominates the fast food market. What's that tell us about that market.

Bottom line both technologies exist. Accept it and move on.

From my understand and X-rox posts, the ABL limits AVERAGE brightness.
The TV doesnt go bright and then automatically the limiter kicks in and drops the brighness. The ABL limits the brightness beforehand, hense it was never beyond the ABL limit point to begin with. So there is no brightness change visible.
I think xrox's post yesterday is different than your interpertation:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16206597&postcount=242

I think xrox's post yesterday is different than your interpertation:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16206597&postcount=242Aside from the obvious power benefits, the ABL adjusts/controls the average brightness on the fly. As Chad says the individual frames are adjusted before display.

Where visual disturbances can occur is when the frame is largely (but not fully) repetitive. For instance, when you enable PIP, or use your PVR menu screen with a video window, the pip or video window affects the APL and thus you will see the screen slowly flicker as the peak brightness shifts with video material in that window.

And in high ambient light the ABL is not usefull as there is very little chance of overexposing the retina in that environment.

Edit : Look at this plot - The ABL adjusts the peak brightness relative to the APL of the signal (post gamma) and this controls/stabalizes the average brightness to limit overexposure of the retina.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd126/xrox/en_027.jpg

Essentially the ABL acts as your iris/pupil since your actual iris cannot adjust quick enough.

1. That is your opinion and I find the xbr styling atrocious
Yup my opinion. I find generic panels...boring.

2. Lit sony emblem, not sure of the draw for that...I would never want any extra light on the front panel.
It's not a flashlight. Don't notice it. Said it could be disabled.

3. How did you come to the conclusio nthat your xbr8 is better built than Kuro's?
I have had a 6020 in my house. I have seen the Elite more times than I can count. And I have an XBR8 in my house. Attention to detail is superb on the XBR8. Never said the Pioneer was not good. But in my opinion not as good. :cool:

4. So the xbr8 is more expensive with a lower overall IQ.
Your opinion not mine. I will say it's better. Why is your opinion correct and mine wrong? Who said it cost more? Did you try to to negotiate a price?

5. Most Importantly....you are happy and that's all that matters.
Yup. Every time I watch a blu-ray;)


What part of text below is not clear to you?

The famous shoot-out. 9.0 for XBR8 and 9.5 for Elite. That sure sounds like it comes down to preference to me...
Now putting all of that aside...

Buy what you like but the XBR8 can hold its own against any set out there... Didn't say it was better. Said it can hold its own.

Rick

Where visual disturbances can occur is when the frame is largely (but not fully) repetitive. For instance, when you enable PIP, or use your PVR menu screen with a video window, the pip or video window affects the APL and thus you will see the screen slowly flicker as the peak brightness shifts.

This is really the only situation where I've ever noticed the ABL actually working before my eyes, beyond extending out white windows on my laptop.

I've yet to watch normal TV/movies and say, "Hey, look, there's that damn ABL again!"

I'm sure it's more subtle/not so subtle depending on the model/size of the TV being viewed.

Actually, now that I think about it, if by chance OLED or SED or future PDP develop screens that are capable of ultra high brightness at 100% APL then an ABL will still be very applicable in high ambient lighting or outdoor environments since it will maximize contrast at low APL.

In other words, if a screen can produce full screen whites comparable to todays LED-LCDs and still use an ABL, the contrast at low APL would be enormous.

Continue to read my post and you will:)

You mean like this gem?

Originally Posted by Auditor55
California, the nation's largest and most progressive state,

This is really the only situation where I've ever noticed the ABL actually working before my eyes, beyond extending out white windows on my laptop.

I've yet to watch normal TV/movies and say, "Hey, look, there's that damn ABL again!"

I'm sure it's more subtle/not so subtle depending on the model/size of the TV being viewed.My experience with my 141 is the same. Essentially the shift in peak brightness due to the ABL is supposed to mimick what your iris does anyway. However, some people tend to find the average brightness is too low at higher APL. Personally I do not unless the ambient light is high which makes perfect sense since my iris is stuck shut closed under those circumstances.

Here is a quick summary on the iris/ABL interaction. You can see why in bright environments the ABL can be an issue.

ABL - off
Dark Room - Dark Scene [iris open]
Dark Room - Bright Scene [iris tries to close but is too slow - overexposed/eye strain]

Bright Room - Dark Scene [iris closed]
Bright Room - Bright Scene [iris closed]

ABL - on
Dark Room - Dark Scene [iris open - Panel cranks peak brightess]
Dark Room - Bright Scene [iris open - Panel drops peak brightness and prevents iris overexposure and eye strain]

Bright Room - Dark Scene [iris closed - Panel cranks peak brightess]
Bright Room - Bright Scene [iris closed - Panel drops peak brightness]


You can see why Bright Room - Bright Scene can be a problem with ABLs

"So there is no brightness change visible."

So from your post above it would be hard to agree with this quote? Thanks xrox for your help.

BTW: What I found where you said some TV makers have more aggressive ABL's than others. I found that some ABL's are more aggressive from the same TV maker.

Aggressive ABL takes the brightness wow-factor away from the picture. I don't see any need for ABL.

LOL I don't understand people defending the XBR8. The Elites got flack for being expensive but jeez, the XBR8 is ridiculous. Even if it were on-par with the Kuro in all areas, which it isn't, it's outrageously expensive. I don't know why anyone would get it as long as there was a single Pioneer Elite Kuro left to get?

And you can't even compare the 850U to the XBR8, which is something like 3x as much. You might as well compare the XBR8 to the high-end Panny pro panel that has been reviewed so highly... they're in the same price range.

LOL I don't understand people defending the XBR8. The Elites got flack for being expensive but jeez, the XBR8 is ridiculous. Even if it were on-par with the Kuro in all areas, which it isn't, it's outrageously expensive. I don't know why anyone would get it as long as there was a single Pioneer Elite Kuro left to get?

And you can't even compare the 850U to the XBR8, which is something like 3x as much. You might as well compare the XBR8 to the high-end Panny pro panel that has been reviewed so highly... they're in the same price range.

kuros were expensive, no doubt, but sony out did them with 55 inch for 7K:rolleyes:

Speaking of crack...I must edit the funny.

kuros were expensive, no doubt, but sony out did them with 55 inch for 7K:rolleyes:

Where do you guys get your prices? With the $500 reduction you should be able to get the XBR8 for around $5k.

I will not order a set via the net. I have had two sets with issues and its not worth it to me...

Rick

LOL I don't understand people defending the XBR8. The Elites got flack for being expensive but jeez, the XBR8 is ridiculous. Even if it were on-par with the Kuro in all areas, which it isn't, it's outrageously expensive. I don't know why anyone would get it as long as there was a single Pioneer Elite Kuro left to get?

And you can't even compare the 850U to the XBR8, which is something like 3x as much. You might as well compare the XBR8 to the high-end Panny pro panel that has been reviewed so highly... they're in the same price range.

No need to defend. Just keeping up with the Kuro fangirls. :D

When I move from my XBR8 at night to the bedroom to watch my Pioneer 5071, I always appreciate my XBR8 in the other room.

Your prices are off...And I am talking BM to BM period.

The Elites got flack for being expensive but jeez, the XBR8 is ridiculous. Even if it were on-par with the Kuro in all areas, which it isn't, it's outrageously expensive

Let me help you to understand it.

LCD's generally are more expensive than plasmas. You can't justify an exorbitantly high price on an item that should cost less. People no longer value plasma displays like they do LCD's that is why plasma tv's across the board are cheaper than LCD's, Its all market driven!

Pioneer, unlike all other plasma brands, were priced higher than all other LCD's other than the Sony XBR8's.

The fools at Pioneer thought they could contend with the market trend but they proven wrong.

There is no market for overpriced plasmas, plasma no longer have the value that they once had.

Sony Canada is now at 5500 bucks msrp vs. the crazy 7k price it had on release. Lucky for many elite buyers...the set was 7k when we bought our elites, or many may have settled for a 5500 dollar xbr8 at that time.

Sony might have actually sold some xbr8s if they had priced it right from the start. Live and repeat the mistakes is SOnys moto though...catch the prices of their new and unimproved lineup for 2009...its de-ja-vu.

"So there is no brightness change visible."

So from your post above it would be hard to agree with this quote? Thanks xrox for your help.

BTW: What I found where you said some TV makers have more aggressive ABL's than others. I found that some ABL's are more aggressive from the same TV maker.

again, you misunderstood his entire post.

Did you miss the sentence: "As Chad says the individual frames are adjusted BEFORE DISPLAY".

Before display means before display.

So there will be no super bright screen and then a drop in brightness. because there was no super bright screen to begin with.

In my experience, I have never had an issue with white screens or anything like that. In fact, my kuro is brighter than I will ever need in that area.

My biggest gripe with plasma is the way the phosphor coated pixels reflect light and wash out the picture during instances where there is a significant amount of ambient light in the room.

again, you misunderstood his entire post.

Did you miss the sentence: "As Chad says the individual frames are adjusted BEFORE DISPLAY".



Oh no I didn't misunderstand it.

If you believe theres no "visible change in brightness" you've misquoted him!!!!!

You're saying nobody can see brightness changes.

I guess you forgot to read this post:
http://avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16206597&postcount=242
Pay attention to the ABL is to aggressive for some consumers.

Its the very reason I don't own a plasma.

Let me help you to understand it.

LCD's generally are more expensive than plasmas. You can't justify an exorbitantly high price on an item that should cost less. People no longer value plasma displays like they do LCD's that is why plasma tv's across the board are cheaper than LCD's, Its all market driven!

Pioneer, unlike all other plasma brands, were priced higher than all other LCD's other than the Sony XBR8's.

The fools at Pioneer thought they could contend with the market trend but they proven wrong.

There is no market for overpriced plasmas, plasma no longer have the value that they once had.

I'd be very surprised if there's any market for overpriced sets based on either technology in today's economy. The XBR8 would be 5,500 bucks locally for me. That's a whole bunch of money.

You can't justify an exorbitantly high price on an item that should cost less.

I agree. But I'm confused. The XBR8 underperforms compared to the Elite Kuro. It SHOULD cost less. You're paying the Sony Tax.

I stand by what I said about the XBR8. I've seen them, and I think anyone who buys one over the Kuro is crazy. Maybe if they were the same price. But probably not.

No need to defend. Just keeping up with the Kuro fangirls. :D

When I move from my XBR8 at night to the bedroom to watch my Pioneer 5071, I always appreciate my XBR8 in the other room.

Your prices are off...And I am talking BM to BM period.

Sorry, Sony did lower the price on their sets, I was going off of the original prices. Even so. They are way too much for what they offer.

In fairness, the 5071 is an 8G Kuro, and not an Elite. When you take the 111fd, say, that IMO is a better set than the XBR8. The really cool thing too is that you can move 6 inches to your left and it still looks great :o

You could have gotten more performance for less money. Also, I think Sony's TVs of the last few years have suspect build quality. I would not say the same of Pioneer (or Panasonic for that matter).

Oh no I didn't misunderstand it.

If you believe theres no "visible change in brightness" you've misquoted him!!!!!

You're saying nobody can see brightness changes.

I guess you forgot to read this post:
http://avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16206597&postcount=242
Pay attention to the ABL is to aggressive for some consumers.

Its the very reason I don't own a plasma.

Key word "some". That means not most. So by that deduction it's not a problem for most people. There are issues with any set and it's unfortunate for you that it's an issue for you as now you've settled for a very average LCD with some issues (I know, I own one). :D

Sorry, Sony did lower the price on their sets, I was going off of the original prices. Even so. They are way too much for what they offer.

In fairness, the 5071 is an 8G Kuro, and not an Elite. When you take the 111fd, say, that IMO is a better set than the XBR8. The really cool thing too is that you can move 6 inches to your left and it still looks great :o

You could have gotten more performance for less money. Also, I think Sony's TVs of the last few years have suspect build quality. I would not say the same of Pioneer (or Panasonic for that matter).

The 5071 isn't even a Kuro as it's about 3 years old technology now so the new XBR8 should have a better picture. That's like comparing apples and ornages.

Yeah, the 5071 is a 7G, not an 8G.

Oh no I didn't misunderstand it.

If you believe theres no "visible change in brightness" you've misquoted him!!!!!

You're saying nobody can see brightness changes.

I guess you forgot to read this post:
http://avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16206597&postcount=242
Pay attention to the ABL is to aggressive for some consumers.

Its the very reason I don't own a plasma.

Youve already linked that post.
And it does not say that there is ever an instance during regular content where there is a bright screen that automatically gets visibly dimmed by the ABL.
Your cherry picking.

What he is speaking of in that post is that the abl may be too agressive for some buyers. Meaning it limits the brightness to much BEFORE DISPLAY to them. You know, the ones that like thier set so bright it burns the leather off of thier recliners.;)

Youve already linked that post.
And it does not say that there is ever an instance during regular content where there is a bright screen that automatically gets visibly dimmed by the ABL.
Your cherry picking.

What he is speaking of in that post is that the abl may be too agressive for some buyers. Meaning it limits the brightness to much BEFORE DISPLAY to them. You know, the ones that like thier set so bright it burns the leather off of thier recliners.;)

I want to thank you for keep bringing this ABL issue up it needs to be discussed. Because like Patrick said its plasmas biggest achilles heel. And its why I don't own one.

You said no one can see this issue (not visible) and tried to get xrox to back it up. I'm pretty sure xrox isn't going to back that up for you.

The brightness shifting was so obvious to me that I was annoyed by it. Like I said its what you can live with and this issue alone made me by an LCD.

In the plasma forum new threads complaining about this in plasma forum, also in the new owner threads. Want a link?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1136775

I want to thank you for keep bringing this ABL issue up it needs to be discussed. Because like Patrick said its plasmas biggest achilles heel. And its why I don't own one.

You said no one can see this issue (not visible) and tried to get xrox to back it up. I'm pretty sure xrox isn't going to back that up for you.

The brightness shifting was so obvious to me that I was annoyed by it. Like I said its what you can live with and this issue alone made me by an LCD.

In the plasma forum new threads complaining about this in plasma forum, also in the new owner threads. Want a link?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1136775

your anti plasma campaign has become hilarious. The ABL is not near the issue you keep trying to make it and if it was why are plasmas constantly rated very high by many experts and hobbyists? :rolleyes:

It's time for you to give it a rest as the only thing it's doing is making you look more foolish by the post. We all choose our sets for various reasons and there are some good LCD's and some good plasmas. Let's quit the BS crap okay? :-)

Yes it is, ABL is the biggest Achilles heel of plasma displays and it's easy to see in action. Animation and winter sports bring it out. This is ONE area where I agree with oldcband and one reason why I lost interest in the new Panasonic plasmas. On the Kuro it isn't as bad because of the low black level but on the Panasonics contrast ratio drops dramatically because of this "feature"

Either Panasonic fixes or improves on this soon or expect them to be extinct, mark my words.
Looks like your post needs attention again.

If I was a plasma supporter I'd push this post to the max for the survival of plasma.

If the plasma supporters would put the effort into this area where they put the importance of black levels, plasma would be way ahead in its effort to survive.

The 5071 isn't even a Kuro as it's about 3 years old technology now so the new XBR8 should have a better picture. That's like comparing apples and ornages.

Oops you're right. I actually looked at those in '06 when I bought my Panasonic, Pioneer lagged pretty far behind in black levels at that point. There really is no comparing those two displays.

Looks like your post needs attention again.

If I was a plasma supporter I'd push this post to the max for the survival of plasma.

If the plasma supporters would put the effort into this area where they put the importance of black levels, plasma would be way ahead in its effort to survive.

and yet some of the top rated sets continue to be plasmas. Why are you so hell bent on attacking plasma TV's at any cost? You don't have one, you won't own one and the rest of us really don't care. We get the message. Did you not learn your first lesson when given your vacation? Relax dude as this is not a war. It's TV's. :cool:

And again, he's basing his experience off of a TV he owned several years ago. If I were to compare the LCDs of today to those of the same era as your former plasma, they'd rightfully stomp all over the old ones.

And again, he's basing his experience off of a TV he owned several years ago. If I were to compare the LCDs of today to those of the same era as your former plasma, they'd rightfully stomp all over the old ones.
I'm sorry you decided to go down this road. Others well I expect it.

I believe I've made a strong case on todays plasmas. Its that the issue has never been addressed.

I honestly believe this issue will decide the survival of plasma.

I'm sorry you decided to go down this road. Others well I expect it.

I believe I've made a strong case on todays plasmas. Its that the issue has never been addressed.

I honestly believe this issue will decide the survival of plasma.

Plasma will likely be here until something better comes along. It's sad how people like you concentrate so much on what's perceived as flaws and you haven't presented much of a case.

We can keep this up all day long or we can end it now and agree that plasmas and lcd's both offer a quality TV. It's up to you.

I want to thank you for keep bringing this ABL issue up it needs to be discussed. Because like Patrick said its plasmas biggest achilles heel. And its why I don't own one.

You said no one can see this issue (not visible) and tried to get xrox to back it up. I'm pretty sure xrox isn't going to back that up for you.

The brightness shifting was so obvious to me that I was annoyed by it. Like I said its what you can live with and this issue alone made me by an LCD.

In the plasma forum new threads complaining about this in plasma forum, also in the new owner threads. Want a link?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1136775

much like everything you think you know and have not experienced yourself, this is another example.
That thread was about flicker. not ABL brightness. Please get a clue.
You base everything off of non-sense you read from a random new poster and assume if a panny exibits something then the Kuro does.
but you can assume all you like and claim what you like, The fact of the matter is that any Plasma problem is super super small compared to the plethera of problems that is LCD.
this is why none of the top reviewers ever bring up this "achilees heel" you keep bringing up.
You would think they would have by now if its such an issue.

I do think that the ABL should be made easily (and safely) adjustable on all panels.

But the "issue" varies from model to model and based on my own experience, newer panels for the most are far more subtle with the effect.

Like I said, I never notice it except during very particular conditions. And had I never stumbled upon the term ABL and what it meant, I'd probably be completely unaware of its existence. If you think it has anything to do with the viability of plasma in the future, then I couldn't disagree more. Do you think ABL had anything to do with CRTs death in the marketplace? I'm sure the percentage of people who noticed it during the CRT era isn't all that different from the percentage of plasma owners who do now.

I do think that the ABL should be made easily (and safely) adjustable on all panels.

But the "issue" varies from model to model and based on my own experience, newer panels for the most are far more subtle with the effect.

Like I said, I never notice it except during very particular conditions. And had I never stumbled upon the term ABL and what it meant, I'd probably be completely unaware of its existence. If you think it has anything to do with the viability of plasma in the future, then I couldn't disagree more. Do you think ABL had anything to do with CRTs death in the marketplace? I'm sure the percentage of people who noticed it during the CRT era isn't all that different from the percentage of plasma owners who do now.

I never have noticed it.
I (like you and most every other non-AVS plasma owner in the world) never even knew about it until I read about it on here.
I have never seen a brightness shift not once during content.
And the reason is because it is a limiter. Limiters don't allow brightness to go past its limit. So there is no shift.
Its like putting a speed limiter on a Car. You'll never go past the point allowed, so there will never be a time when your going past the limit and then the limiter kicks in and decreases speed.

Maybe in the stores when the plasma is next to an LCD in torch mode with an all white screen, I would notice that the brightness difference. But I really could care less because I don't watch TV that way.

Like I said, I never notice it except during very particular conditions. And had I never stumbled upon the term ABL and what it meant, I'd probably be completely unaware of its existence.
If not for xrox I'd still be searching what to call it. It took me 3 years for an explaination. Thats why xrox is the "man" of tech.

Crt ABL never bothered me and when xrox says "some more aggressive than others" he's spot on.

I also know that Pioneer's aren't as aggressive but they no longer are in the TV business.

The reality is its down to two plasma makers and Samsung is there because they can be. IMO when LCD wins out they won't be making plasmas.

Thats why I say that plasma supporters should put the heat on to make a better product the best.:)

I never have noticed it.
I (like you and most every other non-AVS plasma owner in the world) never even knew about it until I read about it on here.
I have never seen a brightness shift not once during content.
And the reason is because it is a limiter. Limiters don't allow brightness to go past its limit. So there is no shift.
Its like putting a speed limiter on a Car. You'll never go past the point allowed, so there will never be a time when your going past the limit and then the limiter kicks in and decreases speed.

Maybe in the stores when the plasma is next to an LCD in torch mode with an all white screen, I would notice that the brightness difference. But I really could care less because I don't watch TV that way.I may have misinterpreted this but the ABL in Plasma displays limits the average brightness, not the peak brightness so there is a peak brightness shift from frame to frame that shifts with respect to the signal APL.

Here is a very simplified prophetic example:

A display with 4 pixels has an ABL that limits the average brightness to 20ftL

When 1 pixel only is operating it may operate at 80ftL

When 2 pixels are operating they may operate at 40ftL individually

When all 4 pixels are operating they may operate at 20ftL individually

Now having said this, our eyes essentially try to do the exact same thing by adjusting our iris to control/limit the average brightness reaching the retina. This is why if implemented properly it should be very difficult to notice any shifts.

If not for xrox I'd still be searching what to call it. It took me 3 years for an explaination. Thats why xrox is the "man" of tech.

Crt ABL never bothered me and when xrox says "some more aggressive than others" he's spot on.

I also know that Pioneer's aren't as aggressive but they no longer are in the TV business.

The reality is its down to two plasma makers and Samsung is there because they can be. IMO when LCD wins out they won't be making plasmas.

Thats why I say that plasma supporters should put the heat on to make a better product the best.:)I have a question though. Is your beef with the ABL due to the low brightness or the actual shift in brightness or maybe both?

I think fundamentally, what needs to be improved is the efficiency to allow for higher average brightness. The ABL itself if implemented properly should work just fine for you.

I agree. But I'm confused. The XBR8 underperforms compared to the Elite Kuro. It SHOULD cost less. You're paying the Sony Tax.

Your comment is evidence of the type of narcism that runs rampant through many Kuro owners post.

If you ceased being so much in love with your own reflection you would not be confused.

I suggest reading post of those who have chosen to XBR8 over the Kuro and see why. You might come to some understanding.

Also, the XBR8 is a great product. If you just hate LCD you will never appreciate how someone could prefer LCD over plasma.

I have a question though. Is your beef with the ABL due to the low brightness or the actual shift in brightness or maybe both?

I think fundamentally, what needs to be improved is the efficiency to allow for higher average brightness. The ABL itself if implemented properly should work just fine for you.
My only issue was the actual shift in brightness.

I could live with any other issue like reflections, IR, lack of brightness etc.

I would still have a plasma today for not the brightness changing (shift).

And I'm grateful to you I understand what I went through.

I also understand if I had bought I Pio I would have been less of a nag.

But I know you want more brightness but I could have lived with that too but that was second in line. I couldn't get dark movies bright enough for my liking.

I think fundamentally, what needs to be improved is the efficiency to allow for higher average brightness. The ABL itself if implemented properly should work just fine for you.
So why hasn't this been top priority?

Like I said all the attention has been on black levels and dropped the ball here? Kind of like putting the cart ahead of the horse don't you think?

You know alot about all of this and why can't this be done? And then I would agree that plasma is the better tech, but the brightness shift where its annoying is deal killer for me.

So why hasn't this been top priority?

Like I said all the attention has been on black levels and dropped the ball here? Kind of like putting the cart ahead of the horse don't you think?It has been "the" top priority for a long time now (well before KURO). It is just extremely difficult to accomplish. If you would like I could post a short history of efficiency improvements and what they enabled?

ABL is not a feature in the sense automatic loudness control is: a characteristic of a TV set to please the user. ABL is there to protect the set. In my opinion, the effects of the ABL - a dim gray screen next to a bright LCD at TV stores is what is keeping plasma from just killing LCDs is we consider all the other advantages of plasmas claimed by the plasma camp such as: blacks, color, off angle PQ, motion and lower price per square per inch.

With all of that on the side of plasma, IR being negeligible or invisible to an untrained eye at the time of purchase, plasma should be a hand-down winner.

But it isn't because, to the ignorant and the unwashed like me, ABL or whatever it is called and the whites turning gray and back, is absolutely and positively unacceptable.

Even if ABLs were non-existent, you'd still see plasmas looking dimmer than LCDs in the big box stores because peak brightness on LCDs is far higher in general. LCDs are nearly always cranked up to their potential in that environment because it draws the eye and moves units.

The question is, when you get the display home will you actually prefer to leave it at that ultra-bright setting? I think you'd find that most people who aren't completely afraid of touching their TV's settings for fear of breaking something do not.

It reminds me of the "fastest" car comparisons where you're talking top speeds of 230MPH. Yeah, I'm sure it's fun to say that your car can do over 200MPH and that the other hunk of junk that it competes with does a mere 189MPH, but if you're never going to even begin to approach that speed, what's it really doing for you?

So why hasn't this been top priority?

Like I said all the attention has been on black levels and dropped the ball here? Kind of like putting the cart ahead of the horse don't you think?

You know alot about all of this and why can't this be done? And then I would agree that plasma is the better tech, but the brightness shift where its annoying is deal killer for me.

No, no it really isn't. Blacks and contrast ratio together form the most important part of a set's performance. I'd take a set that is capable of producing 5x deeper blacks than a set that can show a full white screen 5x brighter any day of the week.

It has been "the" top priority for a long time now (well before KURO). It is just extremely difficult to accomplish. If you would like I could post a short history of efficiency improvements and what they enabled?
Thanks xrox for your explaination. I think what you said is all I needed hear.

I have a better appreciation now and I will carefully watch and hopefully someday buy a plasma again.:)

Your comment is evidence of the type of narcism that runs rampant through many Kuro owners post.

If you ceased being so much in love with your own reflection you would not be confused.

I suggest reading post of those who have chosen to XBR8 over the Kuro and see why. You might come to some understanding.

Also, the XBR8 is a great product. If you just hate LCD you will never appreciate how someone could prefer LCD over plasma.

Its all about value. XBR8 is to elite, as 3500 is to 5000....trouble is that the 3500 is actually 5500...meaning at that price point...it just doesn't measure up. XBR8 would have a massive fan club if it was priced at the point where it added value. Paying more for the 8 is a poor decision, unaminous amongst everyone that has tested both scientifically, and wrote an article that was published. Reviewers have credibility to worry about...unlike the elite bashers.

So why hasn't this been top priority?

Like I said all the attention has been on black levels and dropped the ball here? Kind of like putting the cart ahead of the horse don't you think?

You know alot about all of this and why can't this be done? And then I would agree that plasma is the better tech, but the brightness shift where its annoying is deal killer for me.

Audi is not bringing the s4 avant to america....I know 2 people that are mad and will buy bmw instead...for the rest of civilization...this is not a deal breaker. If Pioneer catered to your issue vs becoming the refference in black levels...they would have gone bankrupt 2 years sooner...and you'd likely still not own one.

Speaking of crack, Oprah was arrested at the border for smuggling 35lbs of crack under her skirt. She was let go on 5 dollars bail after confessing she owned an elite.

This is not funny, and I challlenge the administrator of this thread to delete it. :mad:

Even if ABLs were non-existent, you'd still see plasmas looking dimmer than LCDs in the big box stores because peak brightness on LCDs is far higher in general. LCDs are nearly always cranked up to their potential in that environment because it draws the eye and moves units.

The question is, when you get the display home will you actually prefer to leave it at that ultra-bright setting? I think you'd find that most people who aren't completely afraid of touching their TV's settings for fear of breaking something do not.

It reminds me of the "fastest" car comparisons where you're talking top speeds of 230MPH. Yeah, I'm sure it's fun to say that your car can do over 200MPH and that the other hunk of junk that it competes with does a mere 189MPH, but if you're never going to even begin to approach that speed, what's it really doing for you?

Yeah...LCD's make for better headlights/tail lights vs. a plasma set. My current ride has lcd tail lights...fx45...so I suppose I can say I own a lcd afterall.

I suggest reading post of those who have chosen to XBR8 over the Kuro and see why. .

All 1 of them?

I may have misinterpreted this but the ABL in Plasma displays limits the average brightness, not the peak brightness so there is a peak brightness shift from frame to frame that shifts with respect to the signal APL.

Here is a very simplified prophetic example:

A display with 4 pixels has an ABL that limits the average brightness to 20ftL

When 1 pixel only is operating it may operate at 80ftL

When 2 pixels are operating they may operate at 40ftL individually

When all 4 pixels are operating they may operate at 20ftL individually

Now having said this, our eyes essentially try to do the exact same thing by adjusting our iris to control/limit the average brightness reaching the retina. This is why if implemented properly it should be very difficult to notice any shifts.

The type of shift I am trying to say does not happen is like this:

Say your watching a movie with a bright white scene,
When the scene starts, the brightness is super bright and "poppy".
then a couple of seconds into the same scene, the Brightness noticably drops due to the ABL "kicking in".
this is the "shift" I keep hearing about.

The type of shift you are speaking of above is how it actually happens and is (like u said) more like the natural thing our eyes do.
I think there is alot of confusion on this with some.

Maybe some of the older plasmas did this? I don't know, but I have never seen a brightness shift on my Kuro.

The type of shift I am trying to say does not happen is like this:

Say your watching a movie with a bright white scene,
When the scene starts, the brightness is super bright and "poppy".
then a couple of seconds into the same scene, the Brightness noticably drops due to the ABL "kicking in".
this is the "shift" I keep hearing about.

Maybe some of the older plasmas did this? I don't know, but I have never seen a brightness shift on my Kuro.Absolutely correct IMO. The only display that I have heard of that drops brightness in this manner is the XEL-1. Plasmas do not do this AFAIK.

This is not funny, and I challlenge the administrator of this thread to delete it. :mad:

was it the oprah reference or the elite reference?

Absolutely correct IMO. The only display that I have heard of that drops brightness in this manner is the XEL-1. Plasmas do not do this AFAIK.
I impressed with your "tact" too.

I've never seen a drop in brightness on any TV.:)

Its an actual shift I see, looks like the whole picture moves.

But to decsribe it looks like the brightness changes. When I went through warranty, everyone in the warranty shop could see it.

Its an actual shift I see, looks like the whole picture moves.

I'm not sure what you mean here.

I've never seen any such thing. You mean like a physical shift that shouldn't be there?

I'm not sure what you mean here.I've never seen any such thing. You mean like a physical shift that shouldn't be there?Scenes with clouds or blue skies show it, or the best DVD I had to replicate I had was a movie called "Hitlers Secretary".

The background when she was being interviewed look like the brightness changes but actually its like it moves but happens quite fast.

Like said when I went through warranty I could replicate it, not only on my display other plasmas in the showroom. But some plasma showed a more aggressive change.

Pretty much how xrox explained about the iris/pupil effect posts.

Yeah, that's not normal.

There should be no "shifting" of any kind unless something is wrong or you're seeing a pixel orbitor at work.

Scenes with clouds or blue skies show it, or the best DVD I had to replicate I had was a movie called "Hitlers Secretary".

The background when she was being interviewed look like the brightness changes but actually its like it moves but happens quite fast.

Like said when I went through warranty I could replicate it.

sounds like either a broken TV or the source material.

Yeah, that's not normal.

There should be no "shifting" of any kind unless something is wrong or you're seeing a pixel orbitor at work.
I still have a list of DVD's that do it where I showed the service center on there showroom floor plasmas. From subtle to more aggressive changes but I could replicate it on many plasmas.

I also proved it wasn't a source issue, from same models reacting differently.

I should go to a B&M and play the list I have on the new plasmas. But from reading in the plasma forum its still going on.

Don't get me wrong I prefer plasma over LCD. Just didn't work out for me and I will watch plasma carefully because if I know that I can be happy I'll go that way again.

Ah yes. That problem that 99% of owners have never noticed and takes a specially compiled list of scenes to see.

Ah yes. That problem that 99% of owners have never noticed and takes a specially compiled list of scenes to see.

Dont forget to hold one hand over your left eye and wiggle your toes also!

Absolutely correct IMO. The only display that I have heard of that drops brightness in this manner is the XEL-1. Plasmas do not do this AFAIK.

KURO does it too if you read mpcengineering's posts. Why don't you test it with your KURO?

KURO does it too if you read mpcengineering's posts. Why don't you test it with your KURO?

And what type of obstacles would you have to put the TV thru to catch a glimse of it visibly happening?
During content is when it matters.

Oh, and by the way, mpcengineering had a non-US model 5090.
And he was wondering about a black level shift he saw that noone else could confirm. ABL does not affect black level.

And what type of obstacles would you have to put the TV thru to catch a glimse of it visibly happening?
During content is when it matters.

A full white still screen perhaps?

But a full white screen is simply going to look like a full white screen. It isn't going to shift up or down in brightness one way or another while you're looking at it, which is what's being discussed. There's no moment where it's super-bright and then suddenly drops before your eyes.

There's no moment where it's super-bright and then suddenly drops before your eyes.

It has been confirmed that KURO has time and content based limiters. First the typical ABL will limit max output instantaneously and time based limiter will drop output in couple of cycles and then return to original max output.