NFL Network is airing the replay of a Titans-Steelers playoff game from January 2003, in HD. It's interesting to note that the score bug is definitely not in the 4:3 safe area, and most of the plays appear to be framed for 16:9 with little regard for being 4:3 safe. Since this was originally broadcast over six years ago, how did CBS handle the standard definition broadcast? Were they using entirely different cameras? Was it letterboxed? This particular video would look really bad if they were just cropping it down. 2003 was still fairly early in the scheme of things for HD, so I'm curious about how this sort of thing was handled.

During the early years of HD games on CBS the scorebug for the HD feed was position for 16x9. it was the same production for both SD and HD yet the scorebug was positioned separately for each feed.

During the early years of HD games on CBS the scorebug for the HD feed was position for 16x9. it was the same production for both SD and HD yet the scorebug was positioned separately for each feed.

wasn't that back in the days when CBS had different announcers for the marquee events broadcast in HD?

During the early years of HD games on CBS the scorebug for the HD feed was position for 16x9. it was the same production for both SD and HD yet the scorebug was positioned separately for each feed.


No they had two production teams. CBS started using the same production for both feeds in 2005.

I saw a bit of that last night, I noticed the bug placement and found it odd.

Forgot that the production was separate back then

No they had two production teams. CBS started using the same production for both feeds in 2005.

Before the networks went to HD-only game coverage origination, there was a period of time where there were two feeds cut at once. I believe that is the method that homcom mentioned. One switcher panel controlled two equipment frames, one HD and another SD. Two graphics devices separately rendered different aspect ratio pictures from the same stat data. One was formatted as 4x3 and was inserted into the SD image. The other was formatted for a 16x9 image and it was inserted into the HD feed.

That system had its advantages, but economics drove the industry to a single HD origination. That's when the "4x3-safe" business started, effectively killing the advantage of the wider aspect ratio (in my opinion.) The headache of framing for two aspect ratios will be around long after we've gone to all HD origination for all programs.

.............The headache of framing for two aspect ratios will be around long after we've gone to all HD origination for all programs.

It seems that the simple (and best) solution would be to frame for 16:9 and letterbox for 4:3. But I guess that would be too easy............... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Before the networks went to HD-only game coverage origination, there was a period of time where there were two feeds cut at once. I believe that is the method that homcom mentioned. One switcher panel controlled two equipment frames, one HD and another SD. Two graphics devices separately rendered different aspect ratio pictures from the same stat data. One was formatted as 4x3 and was inserted into the SD image. The other was formatted for a 16x9 image and it was inserted into the HD feed.

That system had its advantages, but economics drove the industry to a single HD origination. That's when the "4x3-safe" business started, effectively killing the advantage of the wider aspect ratio (in my opinion.) The headache of framing for two aspect ratios will be around long after we've gone to all HD origination for all programs.

i could be mistaken about this, because it's been a while, so someone correct me if i'm wrong, but: i don't believe cbs ever did dual crews for any of their hd productions. i remember the days of dual productions for hd and when you watched the hd feed, you totally knew that it was a separate production. usually that meant that there were essentially no graphcs available, you'd hear sound effects corresponding to wipes and effects and not see the effect, etc. this broadcast has full effects and graphics onscreen, though they're clearly rendered in standard def here.

obviously this is a cbs broadcast done with somewhat different equipment thant they're working with now - the main camera shots are absolutely addled with ringing and edge enhancement, as well as totally blown out whites. i remember this being the norm with cbs broadcasts until recently, when their trademark went from being blown out whites and edge enhancement to the fact that they apparetly now consider green to be the new white. but i'm reasonably certain that at no point in time did they do separate broadcasts. abc did it with monday night football, and nbc did it with basically everything they did live in hd, but i seem to recall cbs always going with the single broadcast, something that made their live productions markedly more refined early on. also, it's definitely not framed for 16:9

but that leads me to the same question: if cbs could move the score bug to the corner of the 16:9 frame in 2003, why the hell can't anyone in the world seem to do it now? i mean, how hard is it to find a way to produce a separate score bug for the HD and SD broadcasts? seriously, i'm not just complaining - if someone knows, i'd really like to know.

i could be mistaken about this, because it's been a while, so someone correct me if i'm wrong, but: i don't believe cbs ever did dual crews for any of their hd productions.Yes, the CBS games before the 2003 season, which were only a handful were separate productions.

No they had two production teams. CBS started using the same production for both feeds in 2005.
Joint SD/HD productions on CBS for the NFL started with the 2003 season. The primary game had separate graphics placement from the 2003 season to the 2005 season.

but that leads me to the same question: if cbs could move the score bug to the corner of the 16:9 frame in 2003, why the hell can't anyone in the world seem to do it now? i mean, how hard is it to find a way to produce a separate score bug for the HD and SD broadcasts? seriously, i'm not just complaining - if someone knows, i'd really like to know.

That's a great point. The ticker at the bottom of the screen during all NFL broadcasts on CBS is different for the HD and SD broadcasts. They take advantage of the entire 16:9 area for the ticker. Why not insert the score bug at the same point as the ticker? It seems like that would be easy enough to do.

That's a great point. The ticker at the bottom of the screen during all NFL broadcasts on CBS is different for the HD and SD broadcasts. They take advantage of the entire 16:9 area for the ticker. Why not insert the score bug at the same point as the ticker? It seems like that would be easy enough to do.

The ticker is not different between the HD and SD broadcasts on CBS. The HD version has information that is not seen on the SD version because it is out side of the 4x3 safe area. It is the same graphic just part of it is cut off in SD.

Yes, the CBS games before the 2003 season, which were only a handful were separate productions.


Joint SD/HD productions on CBS for the NFL started with the 2003 season. The primary game had separate graphics placement from the 2003 season to the 2005 season.

ok, so that begs the question: if they were doing separate graphics for the HD broadcast as early as 2003, why did they stop and why can't anyone seem to do it now?

ok, so that begs the question: if they were doing separate graphics for the HD broadcast as early as 2003, why did they stop and why can't anyone seem to do it now?

$$$$$$, also with some providers now center cutting the HD feed for SD channels, having 16x9 graphics right now would not work that well.

It is more cost effective to send a single version and have it cut for 4:3.

But more pertinent now is that the digital feed will be the only version available and will be cut to 4:3 before delivery to the home in some cases. That's why even primetime programming that used to have a 16:9 placed bug as recently as about a year ago, have now all switched to 4:3 safe bug positions (and 4:3 safe framing for the program material).

Like homcom said, a "16:9 ticker" becomes a 4:3 ticker when you cut off the ends. Because it scrolls, you get the same info - just for less time on the screen. If you notice the scorebars with static info like score, clock, etc. are the full 16:9 width, but there is no information in the left and right wings.

ok, so that begs the question: if they were doing separate graphics for the HD broadcast as early as 2003, why did they stop and why can't anyone seem to do it now?

All the networks are prepared for the digital transition, and they are assuming that many cable systems and home viewers using converter boxes will choose to "center cut" the 16:9 image. Therefore, everything, including "bugs" are now 4:3 safe. Shortly after 6/12, the networks will stop providing 2 feeds to their affiliates. There will be one feed, HD commercials and promos will run in 16:9, even on 4:3 programs.

Of course, this tends to negate the advantage of 16:9 on "live" programming such as sports; however, we're going to have several million viewers with 4:3 TV's over the next decade.

i wonder how long it'll be before content providers just say "screw it" and start sending out the standard def broacast letterboxed. as time goes on, we'll have fewer and fewer standard def viewers, and they'll represent an increasingly less valuable sector of television consumers. at some point, isn't somebody going to have to decide to cater to the widescreen viewers over the 4:3 viewers, rather than the other way around? we may not outnumber them, but it won't be long before it's close, and by that point, we'll certainly be content providers' preferred customers.

part of me wonders if anyone would even care on the 4:3 end at this point. 15 years ago if you put black bars at the top and bottom of someone's screen, they'd be up in arms bitching about "WHY ISN'T IT TAKING UP THE WHOLE SCREEN! THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!" but years of dvd and widescreen tv, i think, have taught people to associate black bars with premium content, if anything. conan frames for 16:9, the show looks great, the SD feed is letterboxed, and i can't remember anybody ever caring that it was letterboxed.

i wonder how long it'll be before we see a content provider go to framing for 16:9 and letterboxing the sd feed.

Of course, this tends to negate the advantage of 16:9 on "live" programming such as sports; however, we're going to have several million viewers with 4:3 TV's over the next decade.

Not just "live" programming - all programming.

i wonder how long it'll be before we see a content provider go to framing for 16:9 and letterboxing the sd feed.

We saw it with NBC for a number of years with no significant issues. No question we should have just gone to letterboxing for the increasingly smaller and smaller percentage for whom their primary viewing is on a 4:3 set.

yeah, but something tells me that the one remaining factor is that people MIGHT flip out if you're letterboxing sports. i think anything else they'd be fine with, because they're used to seeing black bars on drama, comedy and all manner of filmed fiction, non-live events, etc. i think j6p may still freak out if there are bars on a sports broadcast. someone should try that and see what happens.

How many rabid sports fans still have a 4:3 set as their primary set?

How many rabid sports fans still have a 4:3 set as their primary set?

A lot.

Just because we're on the forefront doesn't mean the rest of the country is, especially in these economic times.

A lot.

Just because we're on the forefront doesn't mean the rest of the country is, especially in these economic times.


A "lot" isn't enough. We've known about the transition to a widescreen format for over 10 years and widescreen TVs have been available that whole time. If they start getting widescreen programming on their 4:3 sets, it's not like they can pretend to be surprised. I haven't heard of a rash of people selling their widescreen sets and downgrading to 4:3 sets because of "these economic times".

And I'd wager that the majority of sports fans are watching on widescreen sets today.

point taken.

also noteworthy, i think, is that as time goes on, it's increasingly likely that anyone still watching on a 4:3 tv is probably watching on an old, relatively sh*tty tube with massive overscan. in which case, the black bars might only BARELY be noticeable on a good half of the remaining 4:3 sets, you know what i mean? a lot of these sets have a solid 15% overscan or more.

Yes, the CBS games before the 2003 season, which were only a handful were separate productions.


Joint SD/HD productions on CBS for the NFL started with the 2003 season. The primary game had separate graphics placement from the 2003 season to the 2005 season.

This game aired in January 2003, before the fall 2003 season, so perhaps this was a separate production?

With the exception of analog cable and some sat channels, there will be no "separate" broadcasts. The nets and local stations will be transmitting a single signal which might still be 4:3, but increasingly will be 16:9...with 4:3 material having end pillars. Only older syndication and archive materials will be 4:3.

So the question is...how will cable and sat systems create their 4:3 from networks that are mostly 16:9? It will be their decision whether to center cut or letterbox. For OTA viewers, virtually all the digital/analog converters offer center cut or letterbox.

So the question is...how will cable and sat systems create their 4:3 from networks that are mostly 16:9?
Center-cut, because the damn networks are too scared to piss anyone off that they don't do any real 16:9 anymore. Everything is 4:3 safe.