So my first HDTV was a Sanyo 28" Tube set back in 2006 that I bought for the Wii and 360 I was about to buy, and it worked fairly well for a $300 HDTV, but it was just too small. So in June 2007 I bought a Samsung 4254 plasma that looked pretty good, but had IR so bad that it literally took 2 hours for 30 seconds of TV watching to go away. It went back really quick and I bought a PS3 instead. So I started my research yet again and wound up getting a Panasonic 42px75 in August 2007 and I was quite happy with it for a while. I started to buy blu-ray movies and began to want a larger 1080p set instead so in late February 2009 I ordered a 5020 Kuro and thought that all would be well. However, what I got was a hot running, DSE filled, hornet buzzing Plasma that I couldn't live with, so it went back. (awesome picture though) I then ordered a Samsung 52a630 to get away from all these problems, only to walk right into a banding LCD with mild flashlights.

Now the banding isn't as noticeable as the DSE that the Kuro had, but it is still noticeable none the less. The vertical bands are located in the center of the screen and are about 1 foot apart, they are dark bands about 2 inches thick that look just like the DSE of the Kuro. I also have 2 horizontal bands that are right where the black bars are in movies, they are darker as well. The picture that this LCD puts out is almost as good as the Kuro, but not quite. I have found that AMP makes me ill so I can't use it either, making the motion performance of this LCD far below that of any of my past HDTV sets.

So now I have a tough choice to make, stick with this LCD despite the obvious banding, send back yet another set to Amazon and risk them blacklisting my account and buy something else (Probably a Panasonic plasma), or send it back and just live with my old Panasonic 42px75 for a while longer. Any advise as to what I should do?

If banding was an issue with Sammie's the cream would have come to the top.

Try another one. The one thing about Samsung that bugs me is what panel your going to get. Mine was a "s" panel.

Also my Video Essentials disc has a IRE white screen (can't remember what number IRE) but will show your bands distinctly (owned a 62u Sharp for a week).

Also I own the LN52a550 60hz TV no amp and I like it (no banding or flashlights). Plus you should be able to get a great deal on one. Check Fred Meyers in your area. Just a little over 1K a few weeks ago.

I bought mine online but I knew for sure it wasn't going back unless defective. Then its a PITA and why local is a great way to go.

I would check out the new Panasonics for sure. They're about as close that any current panel can get to Kuro picture quality, but they don't seem to suffer from DSE as caused by a misapplied AR filter.

If banding was an issue with Sammie's the cream would have come to the top.

Try another one.

Also my Video Essentials disc has a IRE white screen (can't remember what number IRE) but will show your bands distinctly.

Also I own the LN52a550 60hz TV no amp and I like it (no banding or flashlights). Plus you should be able to get a great deal on one. Check Fred Meyers in your area. Just a little over 1K a few weeks ago.

I bought mine online but I new for sure it wasn't going back unless defective. Then its a PITA and why local is a great way to go.

Reason I got a 630 over a 550 is because most of the 5 series LCD units are now A panels instead of the formerly advertised Samsung Panels, so I won't be getting one. Only home theater store within 50 miles is a Walmart so I don't have many options to buy locally. Luckily Amazon has a no questions asked return policy, but even they have limits on how much you can return stuff. (and I don't want to hit that limit as I buy almost everything through them these days)

(and I have a 100% white screen as well on a memory card, it didn't show these bands, only normal content shows it)

Reason I got a 630 over a 550 is because most of the 5 series LCD units are now A panels instead of the formerly advertised Samsung Panels, so I won't be getting one. Only home theater store within 50 miles is a Walmart so I don't have many options to buy locally. Luckily Amazon has a no questions asked return policy, but even they have limits on how much you can return stuff. (and I don't want to hit that limit as I buy almost everything through them these days)

(and I have a 100% white screen as well on a memory card, it didn't show these bands, only normal content shows it)
I believe the white screen has to be a certain IRE. PM Bpmurr he's the expert on bands.

I believe the white screen has to be a certain IRE. PM Bpmurr he's the expert on bands.

Already did.

He mentioned that his former 52a650 had mild bands as well, but nothing like I was describing. I'm now pretty sure that banding is just part of LCD tech, just like clouding and flashlighting is, a part of the tech that varries from unit to unit.

Already did.

He mentioned that his former 52a650 had mild bands as well, but nothing like I was describing. I'm now pretty sure that banding is just part of LCD tech, just like clouding and flashlighting is, a part of the tech that varries from unit to unit.

I noticed the area of the screen was slightly, and I do mean slightly, darker then other areas of the screen. It was nothing like the Sharp banding and better then my 46XBR4. The 46XBR4 had horizontal banding depending on how the backlight was set. I'd just try another panel. You're bound to get a good one.

Thinking a little more the new Samsung 50B850 might be a good set for you if you can swing the price tag. It's pretty cheep for their high end plasma.

with the NEO PDP Panasonics available I don't see any reason whatsoever to buy an LCD

with the NEO PDP Panasonics available I don't see any reason whatsoever to buy an LCD

Here are a few, lower power consumption at higher brightness levels. (the a630 is brighter than my Panasonic by a large margin, even with the backlight set to 2 out of 10 on movie mode) No dither noise at all. (one of the few things that bugged me on my Panasonic) No green Fringing, which has been reported on the NEOs already, And no worries about leaving static images or black bars on the screen for too long.

And here are the better points of the Panasonic Plasma. Near perfect motion without the need for motion enhancers, uniform screen, no off angle issues, better build quality, excellent zoom mode (still puzzles me how many TV makers can't get this right) and finally, minimal input lag for video games. (something Panasonic as a whole has always been good at)

I'm sure that I left some out on both sides, but it is a start of what I have observed so far from both techs.

Getting back to banding. Have you made sure you don't have ground issues?
Do you see banding from all the sources hooked up to the tv?

Getting back to banding. Have you made sure you don't have ground issues?
Do you see banding from all the sources hooked up to the tv?

I've made very sure of it, these bands are not being caused by the source. (seen them on HDMI 1&2 and Component 1) I have found other bands that depend on the game I am playing that are a part of the game. (Tales of Vesperia has a ton of banding in the game engine as does Twilight Princess)

I'd exchange the TV then.

I think it's fair to say that no tv on the market is without flaws. I know this better than most, having gone through even more sets, most of them Samsungs and Sonys. Every single manufacturer on the market has certain quirks that are characteristic of their models.

Pendragoon, my advice to you would be to make a conscious effort to ignore them. If you continue your rigid standards, no tv on the market will ever meet your needs and you'll continue this cycle. The key for me was finding a set that has such superior PQ that it outshines any negatives. That was the Kuro. Put energy save 2 on to knock out the buzz (it hardly looks any different anyway) and don't go looking for DSE, and I think you might actually be able to be a happy camper. No other tv will live up to the Kuro's involving, deep image. On the LCD side, the XBR8 and 950 can get close, but they both come with their own problems that might bug you anyway.

I'd exchange the TV then.

If I do end up sending this back (I have until the end of April to decide) I probably won't be getting another one, I'll probably order a Panasonic plasma since I haven't had any problems at all with them in the past. (Everything Panasonic that I own has worked flawlessly) There are other reasons behind that decision, but I honestly feel that I will be happier with a Panasonic if this bothers me too much.

I think it's fair to say that no tv on the market is without flaws. I know this better than most, having gone through even more sets, most of them Samsungs and Sonys. Every single manufacturer on the market has certain quirks that are characteristic of their models.

Pendragoon, my advice to you would be to make a conscious effort to ignore them. If you continue your rigid standards, no tv on the market will ever meet your needs and you'll continue this cycle. The key for me was finding a set that has such superior PQ that it outshines any negatives. That was the Kuro. Put energy save 2 on to knock out the buzz (it hardly looks any different anyway) and don't go looking for DSE, and I think you might actually be able to be a happy camper. No other tv will live up to the Kuro's involving, deep image. On the LCD side, the XBR8 and 950 can get close, but they both come with their own problems that might bug you anyway.

I had very bad DSE, there was no ignoring it (ES2 was active and buzz was still bad and it still put out too much heat). I've been trying to ignore the bands on my Samsung, but they tend to just jump out at you from time to time (due to their shapes), which pulls you out of the experience. This Sammy came very close to the Kuro in overall PQ (as does my 42px75 when near full black screens aren't concerned) so I will spend more time with it and see if I can learn to live with them or not. I still have 2 weeks to decide.

Perfection in a display does not exist, and probably never will. But flat panels did not exist at all just a few years ago, your bigscreen choices were then big ugly black boxes or front projectors in a darkened room.

One piece of advice. There are new "sexy" thin panels to be found at the store, thin is in this year. But every single thin panel I have heard lacks bass - the manufacturers have omitted the small subwoofers that used to be found on the 4-5" panels. This is a serious compromise unless you use external speakers and a surround receiver.

Perfection in a display does not exist, and probably never will. But flat panels did not exist at all just a few years ago, your bigscreen choices were then big ugly black boxes or front projectors in a darkened room.

One piece of advice. There are new "sexy" thin panels to be found at the store, thin is in this year. But every single thin panel I have heard lacks bass - the manufacturers have omitted the small subwoofers that used to be found on the 4-5" panels. This is a serious compromise unless you use external speakers and a surround receiver.

Ain't that the truth. The 55B7100 has poor on board audio.

Here are a few, lower power consumption at higher brightness levels. (the a630 is brighter than my Panasonic by a large margin, even with the backlight set to 2 out of 10 on movie mode) No dither noise at all. (one of the few things that bugged me on my Panasonic) No green Fringing, which has been reported on the NEOs already, And no worries about leaving static images or black bars on the screen for too long.

And here are the better points of the Panasonic Plasma. Near perfect motion without the need for motion enhancers, uniform screen, no off angle issues, better build quality, excellent zoom mode (still puzzles me how many TV makers can't get this right) and finally, minimal input lag for video games. (something Panasonic as a whole has always been good at)

I'm sure that I left some out on both sides, but it is a start of what I have observed so far from both techs.

Go with a Panasonic 50G10. They can get blindingly bright (91fL). A calibrated G10 will cost you about $7 a month in electricity. As Cnet said..

The Panasonic G10 series is the new king.

Yeah, too bad that quote was taken out of context

I took a picture of my banding using the dark grey slide from the break-in images on my PS3 over HDMI 2

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u36/PENDRAG0ON/random/SUNP0696.jpg

This is pretty accurate as to what I see in normal content, but this dark grey screen looked a lot less uniform in person. (note the lighter band in the center, it wasn't caused by the camera)

The two dark circles on the lower section of the screen are caused by the camera.

The same test on my old Panasonic plasma showed a 100% uniform color with minor IR left over. (I gave the set to my mom....yep.)
All IR cleaned up pretty quick after that though when playing RE5, which looked much better on the plasma than the LCD.....

^^^
Honestly I can't see any banding in that pic maybe a faint vertical one? Flashlighting in the corners though but not bad.

I think the movie with Russell Crowe "Master and Commander" in panning scences will bring out the bands quite distincly.

If there are bands.

^^^
Honestly I can't see any banding in that pic? Flashlighting in the corners though.

I think the movie with Russell Crowe "Master and Commander" in panning scences will bring out the bands quite distincly.

If there are bands.

That is suposed to be a solid dark grey screen, there are darker and lighter bands all over the screen, they are quite obvious in that picture. As I said before, my old Panasonic plasma was 100% uniform in color.

I could enhance the image to show them better if need be, but that image shows them exactly as I see them.

Thats why I recommended that movie. This movie is famous for it and if you can't see bands with with TV viewing then whats the worry?

I've seen much, much worse pics than this. Go look in the Sharp threads (d62).

Maybe buyers remorse? Just like I could never buy a plasma.

Thats why I recommended that movie. This movie is famous for it and if you can't see bands with with TV viewing then whats the worry?


I've already said several times that I can see them in normal content, better than those pictures show them in some cases. (the vertical bands are harder to see in that image than in person) Almost every movie I watch and game that I play shows them to some degree.

I'm not trying to doubt you, what I'm saying is it looks like you need to make a decision.

Try another LCD or get another plasma.

Or maybe get your money back and wait it out (which I recommend).

Both techs are flawed to defective (IMO).

Man, this never ends... I went from a Panny TH-50PZ85U to a Pioneer 5020FD and now to a Samsung LN52A750.

I am finding the Samsung decent, but I am having a hard time adjusting to the viewing angles after coming from plasmas. The reason I ditched plasmas was because I can't stand the flicker. It looks like those old CRTs that would flicker unless set to 85Hz refresh rate.

The A750 has good image quality, slight flashlight at top left and crappy viewing angles. I am not sure if it's the panel, many have said that LCDs are just like that... I do like the stable image, absolutely no flicker.

Would an IPS based LCD TV be better? I am also getting sick of selling, returning and re-buying sets. I just want to find something decent and just watch the darn TV. :mad:

Something to note, the traditional banding that I have isn't shown very well on the picture. (the darker bands are hard to see, but they are very well defined in person (straight even lines) and the end where the brighter stripe in the center is) But I also have DSE style dark lines as well. (the right line is very noticable in that image) My uneven backlight pillars can also be seen in that image.

Man, this never ends... I went from a Panny TH-50PZ85U to a Pioneer 5020FD and now to a Samsung LN52A750.

I am finding the Samsung decent, but I am having a hard time adjusting to the viewing angles after coming from plasmas. The reason I ditched plasmas was because I can't stand the flicker. It looks like those old CRTs that would flicker unless set to 85Hz refresh rate.

The A750 has good image quality, slight flashlight at top left and crappy viewing angles. I am not sure if it's the panel, many have said that LCDs are just like that... I do like the stable image, absolutely no flicker.

Would an IPS based LCD TV be better? I am also getting sick of selling, returning and re-buying sets. I just want to find something decent and just watch the darn TV.

Well, IPS LCDs can't be found in larger screen sizes just yet. But yes, it sounds like you have standard LCD problems. I'll be getting another Panasonic Plasma next if this doesn't improve in the next week or so.

Well, IPS LCDs can't be found in larger screen sizes just yet. But yes, it sounds like you have standard LCD problems. I'll be getting another Panasonic Plasma next if this doesn't improve in the next week or so.

The new LGs up to 55in are S-IPS panels, LH-series, but then I have not heard much about LG LCDs in general.

I was thinking about getting a cheap 52in LCD and just waiting until something decent comes along. I am critical of a screen when it's expensive or considered top tier, but say if I were paying $1200 or something for a 52in then I would be much less critical and I would be able to live with some flaws...

The new LGs up to 55in are S-IPS panels, LH-series, but then I have not heard much about LG LCDs in general.

I was thinking about getting a cheap 52in LCD and just waiting until something decent comes along. I am critical of a screen when it's expensive or considered top tier, but say if I were paying $1200 or something for a 52in then I would be much less critical and I would be able to live with some flaws...
IMO you're on the right track. I've said for awhile to buy a good TV but don't hope for the pinnicle of TV's. Not going to happen. I bought the Samsung LN-52a550 and it works for me. I'm not completly happy with it but it will get me by till something better is out there.

The reason LCD's don't flicker is because there a 100% percent duty cycle and no ABL (automatic brightness limiter). And the plasma problems that I had can be confused with flicker, its the ABL feature that limits brightness and looks like a flicker. If flicker bothers you don't buy plasma. Some can live with it I couldn't. Also I've never noticed CRT flicker.

I also believe theres way to much cheerleading here on the AVS and leads to over expectations.

IMO you're on the right track. I've said for awhile to buy a good TV but don't hope for the pinnicle of TV's. Not going to happen. I bought the Samsung LN-52a550 and it works for me. I'm not completly happy with it but it will get me by till something better is out there.

The reason LCD's don't flicker is because there a 100% percent duty cycle and no ABL (automatic brightness limiter). And the plasma problems that I had can be confused with flicker, its the ABL feature that limits brightness and looks like a flicker. If flicker bothers you don't buy plasma. Some can live with it I couldn't.

Please also note that it is LCD's 100% Duty cycle that causes them to have less than great motion preformance. Plasma flicker prevents retinal blur and is the main reason that plasma whips LCD in the motion department. (and the reason that LED motion plus adds flicker to the LCD display)

Please also note that it is LCD's 100% Duty cycle that causes them to have less than great motion preformance. Plasma flicker prevents retinal blur and is the main reason that plasma whips LCD in the motion department. (and the reason that LED motion plus adds flicker to the LCD display)
Really boils down to what one can live with. Amp feature wasn't that big a deal to me so I went for a 60hz TV.

So I know you said Amp made you sick and plasma whips LCD in the motion department. But to me, its maybe my eyes but I don't see it that much or I'm not looking for it, or that big a deal. But thats me not you.

But I see brightness shift to the overwhelming department with plasma.

So if it doesn't bother you buy a plasma again and see if it works out for you.

Every TV technology has problems.. none are perfect.

Plasmas:
Phosphor trails
ABL
Dithering
Uneven wear

LCD:
Motion problems
Gamma shift/viewing angle problems
Uneven backlight


Pick which one suits you best

Here is a made in paint version of what I see when I look at an all grey screen. It isn't exact, but it is far closer to what I see than that actual picture is. So I will be sending this set back and waiting to see how the 58s1 turns out. (hopefully it's pricing follows the same trend of the 50s1 on Amazon :eek:)

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u36/PENDRAG0ON/random/Untitled.jpg

Instead of bashing me for my SED advocacy, you need to get you one of these flawed display technologies, keep cool and wait it out until SED or some other vastly superior display technology emerges.

with the NEO PDP Panasonics available I don't see any reason whatsoever to buy an LCD

If you would like I can cite some reasons for you.

PENDRAG0ON how you been man? well im sorry but im going to have to agree with jeffs386 with the neo pdp tech the improvements on plasma is so much that lcd on the other hand has yet to imporved!

i have the same panny remember i went with the elite pro-111, i cant seem to see any visable DSE i thought i've seen it once but nothing

Also DSE goes away as you use it more part of the break in and benefit of more hours log into the plasma.

if you can get your hand on a pro-111 and test drive it for a month then i'd say give it a one more try. bestbuy will have them very low low price

I know this isnt a thread to say oh buy this kuro or elite but really i know the flaws are in all tvs i have the tv you have and i moved on with a pro-111 and have no regreats!

with the NEO PDP Panasonics available I don't see any reason whatsoever to buy an LCD

PENDRAG0ON how you been man? well im sorry but im going to have to agree with jeffs386 with the neo pdp tech the improvements on plasma is so much that lcd on the other hand has yet to imporved!

Neo PDP = Big let down. Who cares if a TV can do 70fl if it dims to >20fl whenever there's a real bright scene. Panny blacks lose to LCDs,they aren't as bright, and not as accurate. The only thing they got going for them is motion resolution.

Also DSE goes away as you use it more part of the break in and benefit of more hours log into the plasma.

Blotching goes away with time, DSE doesn't because it is a mis-aligned AR filter.

Neo PDP = Big let down. Who cares if a TV can do 70fl if it dims to >20fl whenever there's a real bright scene. Panny blacks lose to LCDs,they aren't as bright, and not as accurate. The only thing they got going for them is motion resolution.

I don't see how the new NEO sets can have more trouble with their ABL than my old 42px75 did, I could never once get the ABL to engage on that thing. (and with my 52a630 settings, it looks pretty much the same as my old Panny when it comes to brightness, any brighter and it hurts my eyes.) As for blacks, that is only true when in a fairly bright room and dead center, anything else and the LCD blacks go to crap. (my 42px75 smokes the 52a630 in all areas except for dead center bright room viewing, then the blacks are near Kuro, but anything else and the Panny smokes the Sammy. (especially when motion is involved)

Instead of bashing me for my SED advocacy, you need to get you one of these flawed display technologies, keep cool and wait it out until SED or some other vastly superior display technology emerges.

Auditor, please leave my topic, what you just posted has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. All you are doing is shamelessly trolling and that post proves it.

I don't see how the new NEO sets can have more trouble with their ABL than my old 42px75 did, I could never once get the ABL to engage on that thing.

I'm pretty sure this thread is an ABL issue.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1136775

Its not a neo but its a ABL issue no?

Are you going to keep it in Cinema mode?

I'm pretty sure this thread is an ABL issue.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1136775

Its not a neo but its a ABL issue no?

That is Panasonic's Real Black Drive at work, it isn't the ABL.

That is Panasonic's Real Black Drive at work, it isn't the ABL.
Let me ask you then, I've read where you've complained about the Real black drive.

So you can live with these issues again?

Let me ask you then, I've read where you've complained about the Real black drive.

So you can live with these issues again?

It's only noticeable on black bars really, but it is an annoying feature that was supposed to be removed from the NEO models. (no confirmation either way yet) I can live with it much easier than the issues that this LCD is giving me.

(the Real Black Drive is basically a black adjust feature that can't be disabled)

It's only noticeable on black bars really, but it is an annoying feature that was supposed to be removed from the NEO models. (no confirmation either way yet) I can live with it much easier than the issues that this LCD is giving me.

(the Real Black Drive is basically a black adjust feature that can't be disabled)
My plasma flickered (brightness shift) with TV content not just the black bars. Possible ABL?

I don't know if it can be disabled? Can you show me that information? If this was the case alot of members haven't got the notice.

I've must have been really lucky with my three LCD's. Two older Sharps and my 52a550 have no flashlighting or banding.

I know my experience with TV's differ than yours, but I'm not trying to talk you out of a plasma I'm just trying to understand why my experience is different.

If I do end up sending this back (I have until the end of April to decide) I probably won't be getting another one, I'll probably order a Panasonic plasma since I haven't had any problems at all with them in the past. (Everything Panasonic that I own has worked flawlessly) There are other reasons behind that decision, but I honestly feel that I will be happier with a Panasonic if this bothers me too much.

Don't you have to pay the return shipping fee if you send it back? I thought their policy is that they would only pay for return shipping if there was an error on their part?

I know my experience with TV's differ than yours, but I'm not trying to talk you out of a plasma I'm just trying to understand why my experience is different.

Yes you are. You are also comparing your experience of a plasma that's about 5 year old technology and not even close to the ability of today's plasmas. :eek:

Don't you have to pay the return shipping fee if you send it back? I thought their policy is that they would only pay for return shipping if there was an error on their part?

Amazon has a 30 day few questions asked return policy on TVs from the day that it is delivered. (and since my a630 is defective, they will take it back) Buzz was a good enough reason on my Kuro and severe banding should work for the Sammy. (will be contacting them in a few minutes)

And done Ceva will contact me early next week for a pick-up

Amazon has a 30 day few questions asked return policy on TVs from the day that it is delivered. (and since my a630 is defective, they will take it back) Buzz was a good enough reason on my Kuro and severe banding should work for the Sammy. (will be contacting them in a few minutes)

And done Ceva will contact me early next week for a pick-up

I hope you keep getting good service. I sent back a Kuro for blotching early on and when the replacement had different issues... I called Amazon... they offered a replacement, but then canceled my account rather than shipping it. It might have been a phase they were going through, as a lot of folks had them closed around that same time. But they basically said the value of the orders I had issues with (the TVs) so far outweighed the stuff I hadn't (media) that it wasn't in their best interests to have me as a customer.

I hope you keep getting good service. I sent back a Kuro for blotching early on and when the replacement had different issues... I called Amazon... they offered a replacement, but then canceled my account rather than shipping it. It might have been a phase they were going through, as a lot of folks had them closed around that same time. But they basically said the value of the orders I had issues with (the TVs) so far outweighed the stuff I hadn't (media) that it wasn't in their best interests to have me as a customer.

I'm worried about that as well, which is why I might not buy a third set through Amazon, but my only local stores are Walmart and a Sears, Best buy is about 55 miles north....

I'm worried about that as well, which is why I might not buy a third set through Amazon, but my only local stores are Walmart and a Sears, Best buy is about 55 miles north....

From what I have seen from Sears they have been very competitive in their pricing and seem to be more customer friendly than BB. They also carry a pretty full line of TV's in my area.

From what I have seen from Sears they have been very competitive in their pricing and seem to be more customer friendly than BB. They also carry a pretty full line of TV's in my area.

I'm kinda blacklisted from Sears though after I bought a Samsung 4254 plasma from them that had insane heat-output and had instant IR that lasted for hours. Over the phone they said that their return policy was a lie and that I couldn't do anything but keep it. After 2 weeks of back and forth over the phone they agreed to a swap out with a "brand new" unit, well they sent their floor model with a huge scratch across the screen as my replacement. I told them to load both up and take them back. After following the truck back into town I then had to basically stare down the manager of the store to get him to do a refund. Haven't shopped at a Sears since.

(the Real Black Drive is basically a black adjust feature that can't be disabled)
Sorry I see where you said it ("can't be disabled").

There was one model on a 8g in the service menu could be disabled. This is the only one I know of.

http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=626498

I also see where you've posted on the thread I posted before. They see it on more than black bars also.

And you said you can live with this issue before your issues with your a630. Thats all that matters then.

But you say you stay in the Cinema mode, isn't that a tough one for you? I could live with Standard mode.

You'd be better off verifing that the real black drive is gone before you buy? Right.

Amazon has a 30 day few questions asked return policy on TVs from the day that it is delivered. (and since my a630 is defective, they will take it back) Buzz was a good enough reason on my Kuro and severe banding should work for the Sammy. (will be contacting them in a few minutes)

And done Ceva will contact me early next week for a pick-up

What are you thinking of getting next? Panny G10? :D

What are you thinking of getting next? Panny G10? :D

My current options that I am considering are...

Panasonic 54g10 (can't wait until August for the 58 inch Panny's)
Samsung 58b550 (if they fixed their IR issues from my last Samsung plasma)
Samsung 63b550 (a really cheap 63 inch TV)
Samsung 52b550 (if I can get an S panel without and banding)
Panasonic 58pz800

Not sure what path I will take just yet, but I'll be going back to my old 28inch HDCRT for a bit until I decide on a new set.

My current options that I am considering are...

Panasonic 54g10 (can't wait until August for the 58 inch Panny's)
Samsung 58b550 (if they fixed their IR issues from my last Samsung plasma)
Samsung 63b550 (a really cheap 63 inch TV)
Samsung 52b550 (if I can get an S panel without and banding)
Panasonic 58pz800

Not sure what path I will take just yet, but I'll be going back to my old 28inch HDCRT for a bit until I decide on a new set.

I'd prob be looking at the 58pz800 if I were in your shoes. I recently saw a relatives 50" 800 series display and it looked very nice... and size is king.

I've owned a bunch of Samsungs but each one had little glitches or the IR thing you mentioned. Not all of them were huge dealbreaker things, but just annoying at least. I finally gave up on them.

I'd prob be looking at the 58pz800 if I were in your shoes. I recently saw a relatives 50" 800 series display and it looked very nice... and size is king.

I've owned a bunch of Samsungs but each one had little glitches or the IR thing you mentioned. Not all of them were huge dealbreaker things, but just annoying at least. I finally gave up on them.

If I can find a 58pz800 for under 2k I'll probably jump on it, but I might just end up waiting for the 65s1/58v10 this fall since I will be getting a HTPC (Acer Aspire Revo net-top) around the same time and I am not comfortable using a Samsung plasma in that manner.....

It really depends on how things go over the next couple of months as to what I end up doing.

Auditor, please leave my topic, what you just posted has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. All you are doing is shamelessly trolling and that post proves it.


I'm not "trolling" you buddy. I'm just trying to get you to be content with what you have, at least for the time being. I think others have attempted to do same by stating things like "there's no perfect display". That might not be acceptable to you, I understand, so I trying to comfort you in getting you to look forward to the future. You are like me, I used send back display after display, I got tired of doing that and decided, hell, I just wait for SED and be done with it.

I'm not "trolling" you buddy. I'm just trying to get you to be content with what you have, at least for the time being. I think others have attempted to do same by stating things like "there's no perfect display". That might not be acceptable to you, I understand, so I trying to comfort you in getting you to look forward to the future. You are like me, I used send back display after display, I got tired of doing that and decided, hell, I just wait for SED and be done with it.

Sorry if I consider a uniform screen to be too much to ask for, both my previous Panasonic and Samsung plasma sets had 100% uniform screens. (and after over a year of heavy gaming, my Panasonic still has a 100% uniform screen) I have now had a 5020 Kuro and a 52a630 Sammy and both had very bad uniformity problems that are quite noticeable. I WILL NOT SETTLE FOR A NON UNIFORM SCREEN.

And as for SED, if you haven't gotten the memo yet, SED is dead, has been for 3 years. OLED with all of it's flaws is all that we have to look forward to sadly.

Sorry if I consider a uniform screen to be too much to ask for, both my previous Panasonic and Samsung plasma sets had 100% uniform screens. (and after over a year of heavy gaming, my Panasonic still has a 100% uniform screen) I have now had a 5020 Kuro and a 52a630 Sammy and both had very bad uniformity problems that are quite noticeable. I WILL NOT SETTLE FOR A NON UNIFORM SCREEN.

And as for SED, if you haven't gotten the memo yet, SED is dead, has been for 3 years. OLED with all of it's flaws is all that we have to look forward to sadly.

How long did you have the Kuro?
My 151 had blotching issues during the first month or two of owning it.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14323463#post14323463
But it went away completely after going thru break-in and watching TV for a while.

I would definitly recommend letting the set break-in for a good while before returning a kuro.
My blotching kinda looked like your paint picture, but I could not see it during content, and onlt noticed it when watching solid color slides(break-in disk) or when the screen was black so the blotching was really not worth going crazy about.

I WILL NOT SETTLE FOR A NON UNIFORM SCREEN.

Like "Captain picky" who's been through many more displays then myself, there comes a point where you wonder why members here can't be satisfied.

I'm not picking on you I'm pointing out that here on the AVS members can talk themselves into an issue.

I own two Sharps and a Samsung LCD's that are uniform so I know that you can't lump every LCD display into "I will not settle for a non-uniform screen" catergory.

Buy what you want (and no one really cares what anyone one of us buy), but I know what really bothered me, and why I found the AVS.

I bought a HDTV and from the very first day "whats this" and google led me here.

How long did you have the Kuro?
My 151 had blotching issues during the first month or two of owning it.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14323463#post14323463
But it went away completely after going thru break-in and watching TV for a while.

I would definitly recommend letting the set break-in for a good while before returning a kuro.
My blotching kinda looked like your paint picture, but I could not see it during content, and onlt noticed it when watching solid color slides(break-in disk) or when the screen was black so the blotching was really not worth going crazy about.

I'm 99.999999% sure that Blotching (which I had, and was steadily going away over time) and the Dirty screen effect (which wasn't changing at all) are completely different issues.

On the Kuro my DSE was obviously on the glass not the panel (a poorly applied AR filter is most likely what I had), on my Sammy, the darker bands and splotches are part of the screen not the semi-matte filter.

So then switch it out man!, go to bestbuy they carry both non and elite models. my local one has about 7+ 5020's and 2+ 111.

and the magnolia dealers do push pioneers they do know what they are talking about.

so its not a lcd only sales for those of you wondering.

anyways i would definitely try the kuro again get it break it in (accerlated method) then if it doesnt work out before the 30 days return it at bestbuy.

surely theirs a close one to your home and their prices are very low i saw around 2500 or so

So then switch it out man!, go to bestbuy they carry both non and elite models. my local one has about 7+ 5020's and 2+ 111.

and the magnolia dealers do push pioneers they do know what they are talking about.

so its not a lcd only sales for those of you wondering.

anyways i would definitely try the kuro again get it break it in (accerlated method) then if it doesnt work out before the 30 days return it at bestbuy.

surely theirs a close one to your home and their prices are very low i saw around 2500 or so


I still have a hard time spotting what they referr to as this "dirty screen" on the Kuros and I have owned 3 kuros.
Are they talking about something they see when they turn the TV off and look closely at the screen?
Maybe I have just been blesses with 3 good kuros?
Because they have all seemed crystal clean and clear to me.

Maybe they should get some distilled water and some microfiber cloths and clean thier screens? Maybe they are just really legitamitly dirty from fingerprints, dust, and hamburgers?

So then switch it out man!, go to bestbuy they carry both non and elite models. my local one has about 7+ 5020's and 2+ 111.

and the magnolia dealers do push pioneers they do know what they are talking about.

so its not a lcd only sales for those of you wondering.

anyways i would definitely try the kuro again get it break it in (accerlated method) then if it doesnt work out before the 30 days return it at bestbuy.

surely theirs a close one to your home and their prices are very low i saw around 2500 or so

If was as easy as just switching it out I'd still have my 111. It seems to be there to some extent on Kuro sets. According to someone who spoke with Pioneer and posted the response it's "within spec". Either DSE bothers you or doesn't. It did to me, I could see it in the store demo so I wasn't going to play the TV swaping game.

no way!!!!!!! ...........everybody knows that the mighty KURO is perfect in every way

DSE can be caused by dirt, dust, fingerprints (or hamburgers), and it can be caused by "blotching" which will vanish in time, but more often than not it's a physical defect in the screen.

No amount of distilled water or the passage of time will cure the latter problem.

I've seen a couple completely DSE-free panels, but playing the swapping game is no guarantee that you'll get one.

no way!!!!!!! ...........everybody knows that the mighty KURO is perfect in every way

Not perfect, but definitely a very nice set. :D

DSE can be caused by dirt, dust, fingerprints (or hamburgers), and it can be caused by "blotching" which will vanish in time, but more often than not it's a physical defect in the screen.

No amount of distilled water or the passage of time will cure the latter problem.

I've seen a couple completely DSE-free panels, but playing the swapping game is no guarantee that you'll get one.

My question is, Can you noticed this "DSE" at normal viewing diatnace during normal content? Or Do you have to put in the break-in disk and use a magnifying glass?

My question is, Can you noticed this "DSE" at normal viewing diatnace during normal content? Or Do you have to put in the break-in disk and use a magnifying glass?

Oh geez, mine is ridiculously visible at normal viewing distances on pans... especially stuff like pans of the sky and other light colors.

Oh geez, mine is ridiculously visible at normal viewing distances on pans... especially stuff like pans of the sky and other light colors.

maybe I need to look harder (or not).
I just don't see this "dirt".

I noticed there are some pictures on this post :
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15735013#post15735013

I just don't see what it is trying to point out.

My question is, Can you noticed this "DSE" at normal viewing diatnace during normal content? Or Do you have to put in the break-in disk and use a magnifying glass?

I see it on vertical pans against solid-color from my normal distance.

Mine's fairly light, though, but still easily spotted when the conditions are right.

maybe I need to look harder (or not).
I just don't see this "dirt".

I noticed there are some pictures on this post :
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15735013#post15735013

I just don't see what it is trying to point out.

If you don't notice it then you are fine. Enjoy your set and drool over the 1080p blurays. :D

My question is, Can you noticed this "DSE" at normal viewing diatnace during normal content? Or Do you have to put in the break-in disk and use a magnifying glass?

Let me put it this way, my DSE made Mirror's Edge just about unplayable with the DSE obvious for every second of gameplay. The banding on my Sammy isn't as noticable on Mirror's Edge, but more noticable on normal content.

I would rank DSE right up there with Sharp's banding problems, just not quite as visible.

I just don't see what it is trying to point out.


All you have to do is play some xbox and aim to the sky with the controller, and pan up and down slowly. The transparent streaking will be still and you will easily see it. If you think it's perfect you are just in denial.

Let me put it this way, my DSE made Mirror's Edge just about unplayable with the DSE obvious for every second of gameplay.

I would rank DSE right up there with Sharp's banding problems, just not quite as visible.

wow is it that bad. i don't think you'll find a tv that does both games and tv well. even back in crt days you had tv's and then monitors. i'd like to be the first to make the first true large flat panel gaming monitor. it would have 85hz input to avoid flicker & maintain decent updates. it would have black frame insertion to completely eliminate blur. it would have zero lag. it would equal crt for gaming.

this has all been done btw - just not in one panel so i don't think i'm jerking my own chain. until i build this display and make millions, games will be played on my crt monitor and everything else is for flat panel - never found a better solution myself, but keep looking and you might find a good compromise.

All you have to do is play some xbox and aim to the sky with the controller, and pan up and down slowly. The transparent streaking will be still and you will easily see it. If you think it's perfect you are just in denial.

Well, I just put in COD WaW and went to the makin map.
I panned to the sky and sat there for about 5 minutes trying to make it out.

And I think I might see what you guys are talking about but i'm not sure.

After sitting there staring at one spot and focusing my eyes really hard to the physical glass screen itself, And making it a point not to pay attention to the image that the screen is displaying, I can make out what I think you are talking about.

Its kinda like a very transparent film or something. (hard to explain).

It seems kinda like I am looking at inconsistencys of a filter application or something. So maybe I have seen what you guys are talking about.

Anycase, I simply don't notice it whatsoever if i am actually watching the image displayed. I only see it if I nit pick and look at the glass instead of the image displayed. And even then, I would have to be able to pann myself like on the game.

Maybe there are some sets out there that have it really bad, but i can't see what I saw on my 151 being an issue to anyone unless they are EXTREMELY OCD and picky as hell.
For me, I don't consider it a problem at all in fact since i have to do something as silly as deliberatly panning games to the sky and focus my eyes on the glass instead of the image just to make it out.

But like I said, Maybe some have had some really extreme cases of this to where it was much more visable. But it seems strange that something that bad would get thru QC at pioneer.
All I know is if someone considers what I witnessed a big problem, then they should just give up on ever being happy with any TV.

The problem is just with panning. Mostly with sky backrounds. Images that are still won't show the effect. I've calculated how many times dse affects the picture in a actual movie and it really is not much, you won't notice it much of the time. Yeah i'm picky as possible but pioneer did let this flaw slip through their QC process where other plasmas don't have the problem to this degree.

Some sets are far worse than others.

The problem is just with panning. Mostly with sky backrounds. Images that are still won't show the effect. I've calculated how many times dse affects the picture in a actual movie and it really is not much, you won't notice it much of the time. Yeah i'm picky as possible but pioneer did let this flaw slip through their QC process where other plasmas don't have the problem to this degree.

I would say it's more like a design or manufacturing flaw. :D

Well CEVA just picked up my 52a630 and when he loaded it onto the dolly, he tipped it onto it's side and then almost upside down, I mentioned that it wasn't supposed to be shipped that way and he said "about 70% of the TVs that we get are either laying down or even upside down when they arrive at our shipping center" Which kinda explains why there are so many defective TVs out there.... I must have gotten lucky with my 42px75.

Makes me wonder just how many TVs out there are being damaged in shipping? :confused:

I guess I'll be buying my next TV through Best Buy and hope for the best.

Well CEVA just picked up my 52a630 and when he loaded it onto the dolly, he tipped it onto it's side and then almost upside down, I mentioned that it wasn't supposed to be shipped that way and he said "about 70% of the TVs that we get are either laying down or even upside down when they arrive at our shipping center" Which kinda explains why there are so many defective TVs out there.... I must have gotten lucky with my 42px75.

Makes me wonder just how many TVs out there are being damaged in shipping? :confused:

I guess I'll be buying my next TV through Best Buy and hope for the best.

Thats Ceva for you.
both 6010's they delivered me were sitting by thierselves in the truck and were not strapped to the wall or anything. And of course, the boxes looked like they had been thru world war 3.
Thats what I like about some of the forum sponsors, they ship them on thier own pallet.