well?

You could buy a PA-120, eD 200 or BIC F12 and have it outperform subs that cost 3 times as much at Bestbuy or similar stores. So yeah, a $200-$300 sub can outperform or compete with a much more expensive sub.

Realistically though cutting costs to offer a >$300 sub is going to mean sacrifices that will inevitably lead to performance setbacks. It's hard to imagine a smaller, less powerful sub keeping up with another that has a larger cabinet, larger driver, more powerful amp etc. There's only so much you can do with $300.

If you're just wondering what the best subwoofers at the $200-$300 range are then I'd say assuming they aren't on sale...the PA-120, BIC H100/F12 would both be top 5. Dayton also makes some solid subs at this price range. I'm sure there are others out there....

Depends on the "$200-300 subs" and "a lot higher priced subs" in question ;). It would be an extremely unusual case for a <$300 subwoofer to best a sub that costs 2-3 times as much. The only real example I can think of is the eD A2-300, which a year or so ago cost $315 ($300 for 2 or more), which could certainly outperform something like the Def Tech Supercube III (~$700 MSRP) and probably the Supercube II (~$900 MSRP) as well.

Suppose we are comparing with apples and apple, like $200-300 ID sub vs $2000+ ID sub, the difference is like going from a 20'' CRT to a 100'' projector.

well?No.

I am a sole believer of "you get what you pay for."

You can... If you build it yourself and spend the time in R and D. But that is kind of the other direction of this thread was intended I think. Off the shelf.... Not in my experience.

You could buy a PA-120, eD 200 or BIC F12 and have it outperform subs that cost 3 times as much at Bestbuy or similar stores. So yeah, a $200-$300 sub can outperform or compete with a much more expensive sub.

Realistically though cutting costs to offer a >$300 sub is going to mean sacrifices that will inevitably lead to performance setbacks. It's hard to imagine a smaller, less powerful sub keeping up with another that has a larger cabinet, larger driver, more powerful amp etc. There's only so much you can do with $300.

If you're just wondering what the best subwoofers at the $200-$300 range are then I'd say assuming they aren't on sale...the PA-120, BIC H100/F12 would both be top 5. Dayton also makes some solid subs at this price range. I'm sure there are others out there....


So you're telling me I could spend 300 dollars, and get something better than lets say the Martin Logan Dynamo? and it would fill a 13' by 10 foot room? that opens into my kitchen?

So you're telling me I could spend 300 dollars, and get something better than lets say the Martin Logan Dynamo? and it would fill a 13' by 10 foot room? that opens into my kitchen?

You have not mentioned whether you care how loud you want your sub to go. Nor have you mentioned extension below 30 Hz.

In the following list, the Dynamo ranked 176th. Scroll down till you find it.

http://home.comcast.net/~frank_carter/Nousaine.htm

The Dynamo has decent extension -1.9db at 27 Hz, however, volume is quite limited at 95 db from 25-62 Hz.

The $300 subwoofers will play much louder, but not any deeper.

You might try three $100 subs, following something like Geddes' approach, hoping to get an even bass response by experimenting with placement and controls.

so will the ed-a300 blow the pa-120 out of the water?

so will the ed-a300 blow the pa-120 out of the water?

It's tough to answer questions that contain such hyperbolic language. Is the A3-300 a significantly better subwoofer than the PA-120? I don't think anyone will deny that it is. Will it "blow it out of the water?" Well, it's harder for people to come to a consensus on that. To some people, "blow it out of the water" means more extension and a little more output. To others, the A3-300 had better have a good 10+dB of additional output and move the foundation of the house to meet the expectations associated with "blowing the PA-120 out of the water". I'm hesitant to hype the A3-300 too much because that opens up the possibility of disappointment when it doesn't meet the inflated expectations I've created. That said, the A3-300 is a much better subwoofer than the PA-120 and would be a worthwhile upgrade, IMO.

EDIT: I assumed you were speaking of the A3-300, but I realize that it was probably the A2-300 you were thinking about. The A2-300 should also be a good upgrade over the PA-120, though it won't be as big a leap as the A3-300.

My Spherex 5.1 sub blows away a lot of subs in the $1000 range. It goes as low as 25hz and its only an 8'' driver!

Plus its dirt cheap, you can get the whole 5.1 package for $150 or so.

http://www.biline.ca/spherex.htm

My Spherex 5.1 sub blows away a lot of subs in the $1000 range. It goes as low as 25hz and its only an 8'' driver!

Plus its dirt cheap, you can get the whole 5.1 package for $150 or so.

http://www.biline.ca/spherex.htm

No offense, but what $1000 subwoofers have you heard?

My Spherex 5.1 sub blows away a lot of subs in the $1000 range. It goes as low as 25hz and its only an 8'' driver!

Plus its dirt cheap, you can get the whole 5.1 package for $150 or so.

http://www.biline.ca/spherex.htm


Curious, the specs show the sub range as 40-114 Hz. Why waste money on the satellites to get response to 40 Hz?

If your happy with this system, that's fine, but there is no mistaking that sub as a woofer not even a subwoofer.

An 8'-100w rms subwoofer blowing away $1000 subs? They must have stumbled across a new technology or something :confused:

An 8'-100w rms subwoofer blowing away $1000 subs? They must have stumbled across a new technology or something :confused:

Yes, I believe it's called "marketing hyperbole"...though it's not exactly "new" :rolleyes:

Curious, the specs show the sub range as 40-114 Hz. Why waste money on the satellites to get response to 40 Hz?

If your happy with this system, that's fine, but there is no mistaking that sub as a woofer not even a subwoofer.

Have you ever heard ths spherex in action? Like many have, you would be very surprised just how good the sub is in it. Even reviews have said that it out performs many subs in the $1000-2000 range. The sub is amazing. And yes it goes as low as 25hz due to the max bass technology.

I've used a BIC-100 and PartsExpress 15" sealed kit and they do a fare job.Not reference, but they seem to fill the room from 25hz and up.

Kg

Have you ever heard ths spherex in action? Like many have, you would be very surprised just how good the sub is in it. Even reviews have said that it out performs many subs in the $1000-2000 range. The sub is amazing. And yes it goes as low as 25hz due to the max bass technology.

Ive never heard it before so no offense but I thought this was funny from their press release.

MaxxBass is not a bass boost technology, but instead uses a Waves patented psychoacoustic algorithm to allow you to hear bass far below the physical limitation of the speakers by taking
advantage of the latest research in how sound is perceived. MaxxBass allows you to hear frequencies up to 1.5 octaves below what is generated. This enables subwoofers to generate much lower frequencies, allowing them to dramatically shrink in size.

It sounds like they are fooling you into thinking you are hearing something the sub is not putting out. My bold on the texts. Almost like Bose marketing?

So you're telling me I could spend 300 dollars, and get something better than lets say the Martin Logan Dynamo? and it would fill a 13' by 10 foot room? that opens into my kitchen?

Yes, its called DIY ;)

My Spherex 5.1 sub blows away a lot of subs in the $1000 range. It goes as low as 25hz and its only an 8'' driver!

Plus its dirt cheap, you can get the whole 5.1 package for $150 or so.

http://www.biline.ca/spherex.htm

What others said....

You can not defy physics...8" drivers are not meant for true subs!! I have 8" drives that go down to 30Hz too, we do not call them subwoofers though ;)

Have you ever heard ths spherex in action? Like many have, you would be very surprised just how good the sub is in it. Even reviews have said that it out performs many subs in the $1000-2000 range. The sub is amazing. And yes it goes as low as 25hz due to the max bass technology.

You can buy subs in the $1,000-$2,000 price range that will have more output at 10 Hz than the psyco-acoustically done sub-harmonic synthesizer you are talking about has at 30 Hz.

You can buy subs in the $1,000-$2,000 price range that will have more output at 10 Hz than the psyco-acoustically done sub-harmonic synthesizer you are talking about has at 30 Hz.

Or 60Hz.

I think MaxxBass is a stupid excuse to say "our driver is not distorting from low frequency"

But seriously, if you seriously believe that sub is comparable to $1K-$2K subs, you are probably deaf.

Ive never heard it before so no offense but I thought this was funny from their press release.

MaxxBass is not a bass boost technology, but instead uses a Waves patented psychoacoustic algorithm to allow you to hear bass far below the physical limitation of the speakers by taking
advantage of the latest research in how sound is perceived. MaxxBass allows you to hear frequencies up to 1.5 octaves below what is generated. This enables subwoofers to generate much lower frequencies, allowing them to dramatically shrink in size.

It sounds like they are fooling you into thinking you are hearing something the sub is not putting out. My bold on the texts. Almost like Bose marketing?And the winner of this year's Bose Memorial Marketing Trophy is...:D

Ive never heard it before so no offense but I thought this was funny from their press release.

MaxxBass is not a bass boost technology, but instead uses a Waves patented psychoacoustic algorithm to allow you to hear bass far below the physical limitation of the speakers by taking
advantage of the latest research in how sound is perceived. MaxxBass allows you to hear frequencies up to 1.5 octaves below what is generated. This enables subwoofers to generate much lower frequencies, allowing them to dramatically shrink in size.

It sounds like they are fooling you into thinking you are hearing something the sub is not putting out. My bold on the texts. Almost like Bose marketing?

You may think Max Bass is a gimmick but its really something special. It makes the 8'' driver on here go as low as 25hz. Watch movies with it, and you will know what I mean. My bro has Velodyne Mini Vees and this easily matches the performance and for $15% of the cost! ZThe sub in this package is amazing, it pounds like crazy.

There is a link to the Audio Critic review of the Spherex X-box 5.1 system. In it, Peter Aczel is fairly complimentary to the satellites, but is not impressed with the subwoofer, and the MaxxBass.

Here is his quote:

About the only feature of the Xbox 5.1 that I find less than satisfactory is the Waves “MaxxBass” low-frequency implementation system (again, see the above Web link). Instead of actually reproducing the lowest frequencies down to 25 Hz or so, MaxxBass fakes them by generating characteristic harmonics that mimic the particular low frequency. The mimicry is fairly plausible, but the room doesn’t actually get energized and your innards don’t get shaken by the organ pedal tones or the T. Rex steps. In reality the 8-inch woofer goes down only to about 50 Hz at best. It’s a compromise that blunts the high-end effect.

Here is a graph of the satellites:

http://theaudiocritic.com/cwo_images/image144.jpg

The subwoofer response curve (note the scaling of the graph)

http://theaudiocritic.com/cwo_images/image145.jpg

Finally - the subwoofer trying to play a 20 Hz tone.... Here is the wording from the review:

Fig. 3 offers some explanation regarding the operation of the MaxxBass. The nearfield spectrum of a 20 Hz tone at a 1-meter SPL of 80 dB shows a third harmonic (60 Hz) 21 dB louder than the fundamental! The fourth harmonic (80 Hz) is at about the same level as the fundamental and the fifth harmonic (100 Hz) is 6 dB louder. The harmonics, intended to synthesize a fake 20 Hz tone for the ear, obviously dominated the SPL reading

And the graph:

http://theaudiocritic.com/cwo_images/image146.jpg

You may think Max Bass is a gimmick but its really something special. It makes the 8'' driver on here go as low as 25hz. Watch movies with it, and you will know what I mean. My bro has Velodyne Mini Vees and this easily matches the performance and for $15% of the cost! ZThe sub in this package is amazing, it pounds like crazy.

lol, the miniVees are not subs either!!

I have 4 Velodyne SC-8s (BTW, $100 each on ebay!) in my house so I know what they are, no one serious about subwoofers would consider them subwoofers...they are midbass modules 30Hz to 100Hz, augmenting smaller speakers to make them full range. Im just starting to test SC-8s with surround speakers to run full range surrounds in my HT room.

You are bring a stick to a gun fight...you are not even bring a knife but a teenie, weenie, beenie, piddlie, diddlie stick!!! :D

lol, the miniVees are not subs either!!

I have 4 Velodyne SC-8s (BTW, $100 each on ebay!) in my house so I know what they are, no one serious about subwoofers would consider them subwoofers...they are midbass modules 30Hz to 100Hz, augmenting smaller speakers to make them full range. Im just starting to test SC-8s with surround speakers to run full range surrounds in my HT room.

You are bring a stick to a gun fight...you are not even bring a knife but a teenie, weenie, beenie, piddlie, diddlie stick!!! :D

Velodyne mini-vees arent subs? wtf? They are 1000 watt subs bro, 1000 watts! My bro in law has two in his huge basement (must be at least 30x40ft) and they pound the entire foundation of his 3 story house! The bass coming from those things are unreal.

Velodyne mini-vees arent subs? wtf? They are 1000 watt subs bro, 1000 watts! My bro in law has two in his huge basement (must be at least 30x40ft) and they pound the entire foundation of his 3 story house! The bass coming from those things are unreal.

Just to be fair I'll say this. Not everyone has the same hearing or expectations. You might find your Spherex to be just right for you and nobody can argue with that. However, I suggest you do an A/B with your Spherex 'sub' and a decent entry level sub like a SVS PB-10 or a HSU STF-3. Play the same sequence in different movies and see if you notice a difference. If you don't...then you're good to go with what you have. If not...then you'll realize the potential out there.

Honestly, especially in lower frequencies...people become tone deaf in areas. You might not ever think you're one of those people...but go get a professional hearing test done and you might be surprised. Everybody hears things differently and for that reason you are completely justified in your opinion of what your system can do. Just don't be surprised if basically everyone else disagree's with you :D

Velodyne mini-vees arent subs? wtf? They are 1000 watt subs bro, 1000 watts! My bro in law has two in his huge basement (must be at least 30x40ft) and they pound the entire foundation of his 3 story house! The bass coming from those things are unreal.

Velodyne minivees are not subs.

And BTW, wattage tells absolutely NOTHING. I can DIY a sub that can equal, if not beat a Minivee in output with 10 watts.

You may think Max Bass is a gimmick but its really something special.
I look forward to hearing it -- it seems a very clever idea. And I seem to recall that real pipe organs sometimes use the same device of producing just the harmonics of very low notes.

It appears a lot of people don't understand what the graphs of the Speherx subwoofer show.

At one meter indoors, they managed to get 80 dB at one meter @ 20 Hz.

While the subwoofer was delivering this 80 sB at 20 Hz, it was delivering 101 dB at 60 Hz.

The subwoofer was not supposed to be producing anything at 60 Hz.

This is called harmonic distortion. In this case, the third harmonic distortion alone is +21 dB.

If the fundamental (20 Hz) is 80 dB, here is how the distortion numbers look at a percentage:

If the subwoofer is attempting to deliver 80 dB @ 20 H, and the 60 Hz signal is ....

50 dB ... 3rd harmonic is 3.16 %
60 dB ... 3rd harmonic is 10 %
70 dB ... 3rd harmonic is 31.6 %
80 dB ... 3rd harmonic is 100 % (meaning the harmonic is as loud as the fundamental)
90 dB ... 3rd harmonic is 316 %
100 dB ... 3rd harmonic is 1000 %

If over 1000 % third harmonic distortion is your goal, the Sperex is your subwoofer.

And this does not count the + 6 dB at 100 Hz (5th harmonic).

Just to be fair I'll say this. Not everyone has the same hearing or expectations. You might find your Spherex to be just right for you and nobody can argue with that. However, I suggest you do an A/B with your Spherex 'sub' and a decent entry level sub like a SVS PB-10 or a HSU STF-3. Play the same sequence in different movies and see if you notice a difference. If you don't...then you're good to go with what you have. If not...then you'll realize the potential out there.

Honestly, especially in lower frequencies...people become tone deaf in areas. You might not ever think you're one of those people...but go get a professional hearing test done and you might be surprised. Everybody hears things differently and for that reason you are completely justified in your opinion of what your system can do. Just don't be surprised if basically everyone else disagree's with you :D

Well I dont have the best hearing, so maybe that could be it lol. Like I did the lossy vs uncompressed test that everyone suggested - by listening to a song in wav file and then it in 128k mp3 compression. I honestly couldnt tell a single difference between the two, and I compared many songs and played them at different volumes. so therefore, im guessing that I wouldnt be able to tell the difference between reg 5.1 and true HD audio/master-DTS. :confused:

It appears a lot of people don't understand what the graphs of the Speherx subwoofer show.

At one meter indoors, they managed to get 80 dB at one meter @ 20 Hz.

While the subwoofer was delivering this 80 sB at 20 Hz, it was delivering 101 dB at 60 Hz.

The subwoofer was not supposed to be producing anything at 60 Hz.

This is called harmonic distortion. In this case, the third harmonic distortion alone is +21 dB.

If the fundamental (20 Hz) is 80 dB, here is how the distortion numbers look at a percentage:

If the subwoofer is attempting to deliver 80 dB @ 20 H, and the 60 Hz signal is ....

50 dB ... 3rd harmonic is 3.16 %
60 dB ... 3rd harmonic is 10 %
70 dB ... 3rd harmonic is 31.6 %
80 dB ... 3rd harmonic is 100 % (meaning the harmonic is as loud as the fundamental)
90 dB ... 3rd harmonic is 316 %
100 dB ... 3rd harmonic is 1000 %

If over 1000 % third harmonic distortion is your goal, the Sperex is your subwoofer.

And this does not count the + 6 dB at 100 Hz (5th harmonic).

Agreed, BUT...

To be honest, I'm surprised it's producing >100dB at any frequency! Too bad it's at a frequency the sub isn't being told to reproduce :p

Velodyne mini-vees arent subs? wtf? They are 1000 watt subs bro, 1000 watts! My bro in law has two in his huge basement (must be at least 30x40ft) and they pound the entire foundation of his 3 story house! The bass coming from those things are unreal.

Hey DUDE :D

My SC8s (look them up, they are just like the minivee) are powered buy the SC-1250 amp, which is 1200Watts....THEY ARE NOT SUBS. Watts does not dictate how good a subwoofer is, they are fine for MID bass sub duties but they do not have enough output overall. Its a physics thing, small box, small driver = LESS OUTPUT at the very low frequencies.

The problem here is that you just do not have a good reference to what TRUE subs sound like!

Agreed, BUT...

To be honest, I'm surprised it's producing >100dB at any frequency! Too bad it's at a frequency the sub isn't being told to reproduce :p

I have the 8" Velodynes, you would be very impressed with their output. They do not meet the requirements of a true sub that we talk about on this forum but take it from a guy that has 4 18" woofers in his family room and 4 15" subs in his HT room that these little beasts are fun! :D

well im not sure if this has been mentioned.. but maybe it all has to do with the room,, budget,, enviroment (neighbors),, and WAF

yes i am a new owner of the pa120 and im loving it more nd more..

putting everything i can through it.. old reference test cd's ,, classical,, hip hop,, jazz, live concerts and movies..

one thing i have noticed though.. as satisfied as i am.. i doubt that i will ever play my system cmpletely at my reference (70dB) or anything higher.. so with that said..

im glad i didnt spend that extra money for something that was going to give me an extra 4hz on the low end,, would it have sound better.. im sure..but is it worth it.. my pocket book says no..

just my .02

I have the 8" Velodynes, you would be very impressed with their output. They do not meet the requirements of a true sub that we talk about on this forum but take it from a guy that has 4 18" woofers in his family room and 4 15" subs in his HT room that these little beasts are fun! :D

I suppose I exaggerated a bit, but remember this "subwoofer" is no 1200W, $800+ Velodyne either, so I'd expect it to have much lower max output than your 8" Velos. I'd honestly doubt its max output is much above 100dB at any frequency in a 2m GP test. And FWIW, the test craigsub showed is at 1m, indoors. It may not actually hit over 100dB at 2m GP.

Agreed, BUT...

To be honest, I'm surprised it's producing >100dB at any frequency! Too bad it's at a frequency the sub isn't being told to reproduce :p

We don't know what the room gain was, but there was definitely some. Let's guess 6 dB just to keep it on the low side.

This means the unit was delivering 68 dB at 2 meters ground plane at 20 Hz with over 1000 % THD.

That's not competitive with any $1000 subwoofer of which I am aware.

However, as it is part of a 5.1 system for $200ish, expecting a lot of performance is not exactly reasonable.

And it is interesting how they manage to get the subwoofer to produce a lot of 3rd and 5th order harmonics as "pretend bass" rather than just make an inaudible thud.

I could see doing one in a gaming system, but not in anything for movies or music.

I suppose I exaggerated a bit, but remember this "subwoofer" is no 1200W, $800+ Velodyne either, so I'd expect it to have much lower max output than your 8" Velos. I'd honestly doubt its max output is much above 100dB at any frequency in a 2m GP test. And FWIW, the test craigsub showed is at 1m, indoors. It may not actually hit over 100dB at 2m GP.

The 8" Velos are not exactly output champs even with 1000 watts of power. The specs should be very close to that of the SPL-800R which has very limited output at all frequencies. In 2m ground-plane measurements, it managed only 99db at 60hz and about 89db @ 30hz. 1000w cannot overcome it's limited displacement capabilities.


http://www.avtalk.co.uk//showthread.php?t=12075

The 8" Velos are not exactly output champs even with 1000 watts of power. The specs should be very close to that of the SPL-800R which has very limited output at all frequencies. In 2m ground-plane measurements, it managed only 99db at 60hz and about 89db @ 30hz. 1000w cannot overcome it's limited displacement capabilities.


http://www.avtalk.co.uk//showthread.php?t=12075

Yep, I posted above that no matter how many watts we throw at a small box with a 8" driver in it we are not going to very high SPL. Mine are surround subs now :D

The 8" Velos are not exactly output champs even with 1000 watts of power. The specs should be very close to that of the SPL-800R which has very limited output at all frequencies. In 2m ground-plane measurements, it managed only 99db at 60hz and about 89db @ 30hz. 1000w cannot overcome it's limited displacement capabilities.


http://www.avtalk.co.uk//showthread.php?t=12075

I agree with what you're saying. I was merely responding to penn's statement that I'd be "very impressed with their (the 8" Velodynes) output," which by looking at your graphs, clearly isn't all that high to begin with. The fact that even the Velodyne, which is a much better "sub" than the Spheryx "subwoofer" in question, is only capable of limited output brings further credibility to my guess that the little Spheryx is probably not capable of 100dB output at any frequency in 2m GP tests. I think we're all on the same page here...

I agree with what you're saying. I was merely responding to penn's statement that I'd be "very impressed with their (the 8" Velodynes) output," which by looking at your graphs, clearly isn't all that high to begin with. The fact that even the Velodyne, which is a much better "sub" than the Spheryx "subwoofer" in question, is only capable of limited output brings further credibility to my guess that the little Spheryx is probably not capable of 100dB output at any frequency in 2m GP tests. I think we're all on the same page here...

I was being extremely subjective about their output. FWIW, I love them in my office. I do not want 100dB at 3 feet ;)

I was being extremely subjective about their output. FWIW, I love them in my office. I do not want 100dB at 3 feet ;)

I assumed as much. In a little office system, I'd bet the little Velos are a lot of fun. And like I said, I think we're really all on the same page here...

so.......um *cough* *cough* any other suggestions? i'm thinking pa-120 right now

so.......um *cough* *cough* any other suggestions? i'm thinking pa-120 right now

I love mine,,,,, im very pleased with it.... just watched TITAN AE lastnight at around 15dB below reference (ref=70dB) heard bass notes I never thoight were there... my other sub just couldn't do it...

im still impressed with this sub

its musical and plays HT...

I will be getting another one probably in mid summer,,, my HT area is a deminsional nightmare for subs....


HAVE YOU READ THE MANY REVIEWS ON THIS SUB????