Hi guys. I just saw the new Samsung LED flat panel TVs at Best Buy. The physical set itself is gorgeous. Slightly over 1 inch thick. Have you seen these? What do you guys think of the actual picture quality, especially in relation to plasma?

Spotted some TV ads for these. A Google.shopping search shows various LCD models, medium-size screens, using LEDs for back lighting. Assume they're not offering LED-only displays yet. -- John

They are good, but I believe the Sony XBR8 models are better. The Sony's generally have better image processing, and, judging from what I have read, Samsung service leaves a lot to be desired.

They are good, but I believe the Sony XBR8 models are better. The Sony's generally have better image processing, and, judging from what I have read, Samsung service leaves a lot to be desired.

Dude, this is the plasma forum !

from what I have seen and heard from others they have the same flashlighting problems that the regular LCD and even worse "blooming" on the screen
I saw on at BB and with the blu ray anima it looked really good but I asked the kid working there to switch it to something else and he couldn't.....I'm not sure why but I guess they don't want you to see anything other than animated blu ray feeds

Word on the street is the colors have a tendency to be off, requires a good calibration out of the box. Also, the off angle viewing is much narrower despite claims that it isn't.

Has the same ills as regular LCD.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2337577,00.asp

They look perdy, I was in Sears today and they had one playing Bolt and it looked amazing. I couldnt justify spending over 2k for a tv

They are good, but I believe the Sony XBR8 models are better. The Sony's generally have better image processing, and, judging from what I have read, Samsung service leaves a lot to be desired.

+1. One of friends Samsung (950) died 3 weeks after he bought, fortunately, no problems yet with his second. Edge-lit LEDs such as this one so far have not produced a picture better than local dimming units such as the 950 and XBR8 due to the limited number of LED cells... but they certainly are aesthetically pleasing ;)

I looked at both the new samsung LED tv's and the XBR8. The XBR8 blew the new samsung LED tv's. It makes no sense to have a ultra thin tv if all you are going to do is set it on a stand.

If you are looking for slim check out Samsungs 8 series plasma. 1" thick and half the price of the LEDs.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=140456&d=1240352824
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/2033/sammyprh.jpg

If you are looking for slim check out Samsungs 8 series plasma. 1" thick and half the price of the LEDs.

Open the drapes it's daytime out :D. I guess controlled lighting is good.

Just having fun with ya...

Rick

Open the drapes it's daytime out :D. I guess controlled lighting is good.

Just having fun with ya...

Rick

lol.

And you just be sure to get one of these to go with your LED LCD.:D

Anti-Viewing Angle Chair (http://i555.photobucket.com/albums/jj480/Kuroman09/lcdrestraint-1.jpg?t=1240454608)


(joke)

Not a fan of the new LED display. It needs some more time to get the bugs out.

I bought a 55B7100. Had it for a few weeks and took it back.

Here are the issues I had with it.

1) Uniformity issues around the edges with some banding
2) Clouding and flashlights that could not be negated even at a lower backlight level as the set would pump the backlight in some scenes
3) The speakers would distort with very little volume
4) Viewing angles are worse then a standard CCFL LCD set like the B650 series.
5) No ability to change the picture when using the extra features like the gallery as it was stuck in a torch like mode.

I could go on but for the money it's not a great set. CNET only gave it four stars because of the features not the picture quality.

the Samsungs 8 series plasma's are pretty sexy http://imagesshack.info/88l770.jpg

Studies emerging about power LED are dampening its supposed benefits: high lumens/watt, color stability, and longevity.

I therefore think if TV are being made with a matrix of such LEDs, these TVs should not be given first choice for consumers, unless you wish to risk substantial unevenness in the image PQ of your TV in just a few years.

5 things occur:



Change in output wavelength of the LED (http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/search/freesrchabstract.jsp?arnumber=4437732&isnumber=4539815&punumber=7298&k2dockey=4437732@ieeejrns&query=%28+%28%28light+emitting+diode%29%3Cin%3Emetadata+%29+ %3Cand%3E+%28%28reliability%29%3Cin%3Emetadata+%29+%29&pos=0&access=no): alas this does not uniformly affect all the LED in an array so it would be difficult to balance color unless each individual LED could have their color adjusted
While the LED itself may last 60,000 hours or longer of continuous use, each LED ages at a different rate, again leading to unevenness in the color spectra
The degradation rate is accelerated by ambient temperature
The quality of a high power LED is highly dependent on the manufacturing process
The lifespan is related to how LED is electronically driven


http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6481874/description.html

I looked at both the new samsung LED tv's and the XBR8. The XBR8 blew the new samsung LED tv's.

Was this in a store? Is that legal in your state?

Yes, it is another stupid post by that jacka$$ TV Tyro.

too new to be worth it yet, but it looks freaking great. I ran a buncha test patterns on Best Buy's floor model and it passed all except solid color - minor aborations in the corners, and high res solid movement which freaked out the motion enhancer badly. I own a Kuro and nearly sold it when I saw this TV. The motion enhancement on these Samsungs is miles ahead of Pioneer, but some people don't enjoy it

...using LEDs for back lighting. Assume they're not offering LED-only displays yet. -- JohnThere's a difference?

How does the LED backlighting in these new Samsung LED TVs differ from the LED backlighting in the Sony XBR8s?

Also, how does the the LED backlighting in these new Samsung LED TVs differ from the LED backlighting in the Samsung LED TVs from those produced during the previous 1-2 years?

I didn't think an LED backlit set could have clouds & flashlights.

There's a difference?

How does the LED backlighting in these new Samsung LED TVs differ from the LED backlighting in the Sony XBR8s?

Also, how does the the LED backlighting in these new Samsung LED TVs differ from the LED backlighting in the Samsung LED TVs from those produced during the previous 1-2 years?

I didn't think an LED backlit set could have clouds & flashlights.

samsung is using the LED moniker to market their new line of edge LED backlit LCDs. it's comparable in many ways to the still norm Cold cathode fluorescent lamp CCFL backlighting for LCDs.

edgeLED backlighting is different from LED array backlighiting, e.g. on the sony xbr8 and samsung a950. these use multiple LEDs mounted behind the LCD panel to provide the light for the image. they are grouped in clusters and can be controlled in zones for different intensities.

all LCDs require some form of backlighting since the LCD doesn't provide any light.

there was speculation before any reviews that the edgeLED sets would have better screen uniformity, but alas it apparently not true; if anything, perhaps worse. s

see the review of the samsung B7000 at www.cnet.com reviews.

also a u.k. review of the B6000 at uk site AV Forums (not this site) http://www.avforums.com/reviews/Samsung-UE40B6000VW-LED-LCD-TV-Review.html

see the threads on these new sets at the LCD Display forum on this site.
see reviews of xbr8 and a950 at cnet, and google for others.

TVbc

Studies emerging about power LED are dampening its supposed benefits: high lumens/watt, color stability, and longevity.

I therefore think if TV are being made with a matrix of such LEDs, these TVs should not be given first choice for consumers, unless you wish to risk substantial unevenness in the image PQ of your TV in just a few years.

5 things occur:



Change in output wavelength of the LED (http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/search/freesrchabstract.jsp?arnumber=4437732&isnumber=4539815&punumber=7298&k2dockey=4437732@ieeejrns&query=%28+%28%28light+emitting+diode%29%3Cin%3Emetadata+%29+ %3Cand%3E+%28%28reliability%29%3Cin%3Emetadata+%29+%29&pos=0&access=no): alas this does not uniformly affect all the LED in an array so it would be difficult to balance color unless each individual LED could have their color adjusted
While the LED itself may last 60,000 hours or longer of continuous use, each LED ages at a different rate, again leading to unevenness in the color spectra
The degradation rate is accelerated by ambient temperature
The quality of a high power LED is highly dependent on the manufacturing process
The lifespan is related to how LED is electronically driven


http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6481874/description.html

How drastic does aging vary between LEDs? Wonder if they human eye notices.

Was this in a store? Is that legal in your state?

Yes, it is another stupid post by that jacka$$ TV Tyro.

I'm surprised Toshiba didn't pursue a lawsuit against Sony on BD. Every circuit city and best buy I went to only displayed Bluray players hooked up to televisions. I found this strange. I wasn't in the market for a player at the time but I was always curious as to how a store employee would respond to a request to see an HD-DVD player hooked up to a tv.

[QUOTE=saturation;16325315]Studies emerging about power LED are dampening its supposed benefits: high lumens/watt, color stability, and longevity.
[QUOTE]


I've been working with pro BIGscreen LED systems for years, and that study is a joke. LED is the future of large screen display system, but it isn't going to happen this year.

samsung is using the LED moniker to market their new line of edge LED backlit LCDs. it's comparable in many ways to the still norm Cold cathode fluorescent lamp CCFL backlighting for LCDs.

edgeLED backlighting is different from LED array backlighiting, e.g. on the sony xbr8 and samsung a950. these use multiple LEDs mounted behind the LCD panel to provide the light for the image. they are grouped in clusters and can be controlled in zones for different intensities.

all LCDs require some form of backlighting since the LCD doesn't provide any light.

there was speculation before any reviews that the edgeLED sets would have better screen uniformity, but alas it apparently not true; if anything, perhaps worse. s

see the review of the samsung B7000 at www.cnet.com reviews.

also a u.k. review of the B6000 at uk site AV Forums (not this site) http://www.avforums.com/reviews/Samsung-UE40B6000VW-LED-LCD-TV-Review.html

see the threads on these new sets at the LCD Display forum on this site.
see reviews of xbr8 and a950 at cnet, and google for others.

TVbcThanks, got it now. It looks like buyers need to be careful about which type of LEDs they are. Are the Samsung B6000/B7000/B8000 sets edge lit or back lit? If they are edge lit it can be a bit deceptive when places like Crutchfield describe them as back lit.

Studies emerging about power LED are dampening its supposed benefits: high lumens/watt, color stability, and longevity.

I therefore think if TV are being made with a matrix of such LEDs, these TVs should not be given first choice for consumers, unless you wish to risk substantial unevenness in the image PQ of your TV in just a few years.

5 things occur:



Change in output wavelength of the LED (http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/search/freesrchabstract.jsp?arnumber=4437732&isnumber=4539815&punumber=7298&k2dockey=4437732@ieeejrns&query=%28+%28%28light+emitting+diode%29%3Cin%3Emetadata+%29+ %3Cand%3E+%28%28reliability%29%3Cin%3Emetadata+%29+%29&pos=0&access=no): alas this does not uniformly affect all the LED in an array so it would be difficult to balance color unless each individual LED could have their color adjusted
While the LED itself may last 60,000 hours or longer of continuous use, each LED ages at a different rate, again leading to unevenness in the color spectra
The degradation rate is accelerated by ambient temperature
The quality of a high power LED is highly dependent on the manufacturing process
The lifespan is related to how LED is electronically driven


http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6481874/description.html

You are comparing apples with oranges as the LEDs used for matrix backlights (local dimming LED panels) are NOT high power LEDs!
Instead they use hundreds, if not thousands of "normal" LEDs that are rated well below 100 mW each. They are bright, but not high power.

Example:

The 46" XBR8 has a typical power consumption between 80 (LEDs off) and about 200 watts (screen completely white).
This means that using all LEDs to their fullest uses about 120 watts - and this includes the driving electronics, not only the LED bulbs.

According to this posting (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=14649249&postcount=393) the 46" model has 1792 single LEDs - and if we divide 120 watts by 1792 we get around 70 mW for each LED, including the necessary driver electronics and the power loss of the power supply because of its efficiency (it's never at 100% - the more power you demand, the more gets lost).

Even if the numbers are a bit off this isn't nearly high power.
High power LEDs are meant to give large intensities of light, illuminating either a large area brightly or small areas with extra brightness (we talk about laser-like brightness here!). They *do* get hot and the heat has to be dispensed. In a LED matrix panel, however, you won't find coolers for the LEDs and the ventilators in the back of the TV are for the power supply and driver electronics.
The LEDs are also separated from the electronics and they emit their "heat" in the direction of the LCD. If the LEDs were really hot you would instantly get funky color problems on the LCD.

As for the other points: They are fillers (applying more or less to all other lighting tech) and are meant to seed scepticism in potential buyers. Speculating about the sub-cell aging of plasma panels would be the exactly same tactic.
I could also doubt the 100.000 hour lifespan of plasma panels as this number comes from the very same company that tries to sell the TVs...

bye
Benny42

Thanks, got it now. It looks like buyers need to be careful about which type of LEDs they are. Are the Samsung B6000/B7000/B8000 sets edge lit or back lit? If they are edge lit it can be a bit deceptive when places like Crutchfield describe them as back lit.

All of these are of the "edge lit" kind, meaning that the LEDs are at the edges of the panel and not in a matrix at the back. No matrix-based local dimming possible.

However, even "edge lit" LCD panels are lit from the back as the light gets distributed from the edges to the back - so yes, it is a bit deceptive but it's also true.

bye
Benny42

With as expensive as it is and Plasmas that are half as much and look just as good. Still not buying into the vast LCD conspiracy yet lol.

Thanks, got it now. It looks like buyers need to be careful about which type of LEDs they are. Are the Samsung B6000/B7000/B8000 sets edge lit or back lit? If they are edge lit it can be a bit deceptive when places like Crutchfield describe them as back lit.

it is deceptive and confusing all because samsung is creating the confusion on purpose mainly by creating a seperate segment called LED that is meant to convey that they are different from LCD, instead of as a subcategory of LCD.

they do this on their site by having three categories now LCD LED and Plasma; additionally, bestbuy now has tags on all their sets double-labeled in big white block letters on dark grey LCD and LED, turn the card one way it says LED, the other LCD. the clear implication is that these are two entirely different types of sets, which they are not, differeing only in the backlight type. more correct would be LED and CCFL, but that wouldn't fit the samsung marketing. i assume samsung is providing the tags to bestbuy, and the sales folks seem clueless about it, well the ones i've run into have.

as to crutchfield's calling the Luxia line LED back lit, that actually is correct, since all LCDs require backlight. it may be more accurate and instructive to call these edge-mounted LED backlights. the problem is getting this difference to mean something to the consumer, as you are discovering.

please read the reviews i mentioned, they will help somewhat to understand i think.

TVbc

It looks cool and all, the design, but, as others have said in other threads, it crushes blacks, which, for a videophile, is a no-no.

And I'm not sold on the whole edge-lit LED lighting scheme. Time will tell.

I'm off the market for a tv now, so I don't have to care anymore. :)

too new to be worth it yet, but it looks freaking great. I ran a buncha test patterns on Best Buy's floor model and it passed all except solid color - minor aborations in the corners, and high res solid movement which freaked out the motion enhancer badly. I own a Kuro and nearly sold it when I saw this TV. The motion enhancement on these Samsungs is miles ahead of Pioneer, but some people don't enjoy it

Gotta call BS here.

I own a Pro111. Even Smooth Mode on the KURO - as bad as that is to a purist - is more tolerable than all the AMP going on on the Sammies.

the Samsungs 8 series plasma's are pretty sexy http://imagesshack.info/88l770.jpg

And feature-wise look like the new Pannies (600Hz sub-field drive, 1080 lines of motion resolution, etc).

I frankly don't trust the UK Review after comparing Phils data with Chad Billheimers Data...
Could be the UK Boys had a defective unit or the Euro Models are being fitted with inferior Panels again.

it is deceptive and confusing all because samsung is creating the confusion on purpose mainly by creating a seperate segment called LED that is meant to convey that they are different from LCD, instead of as a subcategory of LCD.

they do this on their site by having three categories now LCD LED and Plasma; additionally, bestbuy now has tags on all their sets double-labeled in big white block letters on dark grey LCD and LED, turn the card one way it says LED, the other LCD. the clear implication is that these are two entirely different types of sets, which they are not, differeing only in the backlight type. more correct would be LED and CCFL, but that wouldn't fit the samsung marketing. i assume samsung is providing the tags to bestbuy, and the sales folks seem clueless about it...You are right. Both of us have the right to be irked by that. But my brief exposure to the world of retail sales (I was a ratshacker for a few months in the early 90's between real jobs, now reformed) also exposed me to their underlying motto "sell the sizzle, not the steak". I guess we can hardly blame them for concentrating on "Oh, look how thin this TV is!" rather than splitting hairs over where the light source is coming from or whether a small percentage will not be able to tolerate the pulsing. I'm sure they don't really care about what to them sounds like a personal problem, and want us to buy one anyway. Caveat emptor is a remaining remnant of a centuries-dead language for a very good reason.

You are right. Both of us have the right to be irked by that. But my brief exposure to the world of retail sales (I was a ratshacker for a few months in the early 90's between real jobs, now reformed) also exposed me to their underlying motto "sell the sizzle, not the steak". I guess we can hardly blame them for concentrating on "Oh, look how thin this TV is!" rather than splitting hairs over where the light source is coming from or whether a small percentage will not be able to tolerate the pulsing. I'm sure they don't really care about what to them sounds like a personal problem, and want us to buy one anyway. Caveat emptor is a remaining remnant of a centuries-dead language for a very good reason.

That reminds me of when I worked for a very top line men's apparel chain and new merchandise came in from the factory pretagged with 30% off "regular retail price." I later found out this is standard practice in many (most?) retail stores.

fafner

..... also exposed me to their underlying motto "sell the sizzle, not the steak". ..... sure, don't get me wrong. i'm in awe at how samsung has done this. they have outflanked everyone else, especially sony. from cornering the edge-mount LED source, and then naming it LED and acting like it's a whole 'nother set, to creating a great wow looking set, from the thinness to the swivel stand glass pillar design, they have a unique and sexy and first-look impressive display.

i kind of hope this whole subterfuge comes back to bite them in the arse because it is so confusing, but i doubt that will happen. watch, sony will probably have to start somehow designating their LEDbacklight sets similarly.

TVbc

sure, don't get me wrong. i'm in awe at how samsung has done this. they have outflanked everyone else, especially sony. from cornering the edge-mount LED source, and then naming it LED and acting like it's a whole 'nother set, to creating a great wow looking set, from the thinness to the swivel stand glass pillar design, they have a unique and sexy and first-look impressive display.

i kind of hope this whole subterfuge comes back to bite them in the arse because it is so confusing, but i doubt that will happen. watch, sony will probably have to start somehow designating their LEDbacklight sets similarly.

TVbc

yep,
Samsung and sony are notorious for capitolizing on the lack of knowledge of the average buyer.
They did the same thing with Motionflow and AMP. They introduced the artificial enhansers around the same time they started going with 120hz.
So the average buyer thinks that the artificially smoothed motion is actually a result of the 120hz.
They don't realize that artificially added frames are being inserted into the content to cover up the blurr inherit with the technology.
Shopper/buyers are so distracted by the "newness" and strangeness of the soap opera look, that they don't really realize that these enhansers are only removing the judder in the content instead of actually eliminating the Motion blurr. The Blurr is still there. Its only the judder that has been removed. But most of the first time buyers will not know the difference anyway.

...they don't really realize that these enhansers are only removing the judder in the content instead of actually eliminating the Motion blurr. The Blurr is still there. Its only the judder that has been removed. But most of the first time buyers will not know the difference anyway.
Then what do you make of separate controls for judder and blur, which is what the Samsung LED series has?

these samsung conspirators have to be stopped at all costs.
no other manufacturer has dared implement this mind warping device m.a.r.k.e.t.i.n.g. with which samsung has brainwashed the mindless masses. luckily i have stolen white papers confirming this blur cover-up which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt these new technologies do in fact attempt to eliminate blur. very onerous indeed.

perhaps most telling is that samsung has limited this information to only a few hundred internet sites which are accessible to the small percentage who read. :o

lol.

And you just be sure to get one of these to go with your LED LCD.:D

Anti-Viewing Angle Chair (http://i555.photobucket.com/albums/jj480/Kuroman09/lcdrestraint-1.jpg?t=1240454608)


(joke)

Thanks to you, I got cranberry juice all over my laptop!

Samsung's marketing of "LED" TVs is great! Especially when they are ready to introduce "Organic" LED... Just like "organic" foods, they'll expect consumers to eat it up! :rolleyes:

That reminds me of when I worked for a very top line men's apparel chain and new merchandise came in from the factory pretagged with 30% off "regular retail price." I later found out this is standard practice in many (most?) retail stores.

fafner

I was responsible for tagging the clothes in the stockroom at a major department store. When merchandise came in (same box) a lower price was marked for the main floor, highest price on the mezzanine, and mid priced for the forth floor. Pays to know what your buying. Same with TV don't believe the fluff.

Samsung's marketing of "LED" TVs is great! Especially when they are ready to introduce "Organic" LED... Just like "organic" foods, they'll expect consumers to eat it up! :rolleyes:


That is so hilarirous!!!!! I guarantee people would say to themselves, "Wow, organic, it costs a little more, but you know, its better, right???" I wouldn't put it past a company to do that.

Hell, it was done with "High Definition Vision" glasses or whatever it was.

what a world.

That is so hilarirous!!!!! I guarantee people would say to themselves, "Wow, organic, it costs a little more, but you know, its better, right???" I wouldn't put it past a company to do that.

Hell, it was done with "High Definition Vision" glasses or whatever it was.

what a world.

Even funnier, OLED IS actually "BETTER." The Sony XEL-1, and other portable devices certainly support that assertion!!! :)

It's just Samsung's marketing effort to "edjumicate" and condition joe shmoe consumer for current and future products. :p

The extreme black level on these displays are fantastic but they are not a result from the LED edge lighting. The displays are being sold with AR (anti-reflecting) film on the front.

...It's just Samsung's marketing effort to "edjumicate" and condition joe shmoe consumer for current and future products. :pWell, it IS effective. P. T. Barnum was right. For instance, the great majority of FP owners really believe that the signal stays in the digital domain during all processing in a FP, and also that it being digital imparts some sort of magical higher level of quality to everything. Both notions are absolutely false (most high-end FPs immediately convert signals to analog YUV before processing, and all convert to analog at some point) but if one tries to explain this to them, out come the pitchforks--they really don't want to be disillusioned from this illusion. As Chris Rock says, "They loves not to know".

100% digital processing. Does that mean that the signal stays in the digital domain 100% of the time? Not at all, but it sure sounds that way and it is definitely what they would like you to believe. It only means that the processing itself, which may be nearly entirely of signals in the analog domain, is done with digital control of the circuitry parameters. It does not imply in any way that the signals being processed are digital themselves. But folks will argue tooth and nail that this is not true, even if it really is, as if I'd told them the Easter Bunny wasn't real. They have drunk the Kool-Aid and bought into the hype so deeply, that they believe it rather than proven obvious facts.

It makes me shake my head, how easy it is to prey on human nature. Manufacturers are experts at that, and hire experts to exploit that.