I currently have Comcast's basic + extended analog cable.

This will be going away soon.

As it stands now, my HD displays can continue to get digital, basic analog, and HD via the QAM tuners. The other TVs will require me to get those DTAs they are giving away for free.

Once this plan goes away, I can only surmise that Comcast is going to automatically switch me to the digital starter package. I'll get the same channels I would get on my HD display, but the TVs with the DTAs will get the rest of the digital stations they normally can't get.

Since I'm going to be on this tier, which would get the encrypted HD stations, it would be nice if I could get HD to my HD TVs.

I've looked at my options, and all of the obvious ones require me to rent or buy hardware.

I'm looking for a cheaper solution. Does anyone know of any set-top box that accepts the cable cards (not DVRs) that acts as a pass-through to the TV?

All I'm looking for is a box that I stick a cable card into from Comcast, which then outputs the decrypted signal to my TV, allowing me to control my channel surfing through the TV.

It would be even more awesome if it were very small so that I can plug incoming line in my enclosure into this cable card set top box, and then have that go to the main splitter for all of the lines in my house.

All I'm looking for is a box that I stick a cable card into from Comcast, which then outputs the decrypted signal to my TV, allowing me to control my channel surfing through the TV.Doesn't work that way.

Any box you use, either from the cableco or aftermarket, will be the device that controls everything.

The only way to have the HDTV control things is if the HDTV has CableCARD capability.

Well that's regrettable. Could you elaborate on why that is?

And, do you have any recommendations on a non-DVR solution for a set-top box that accepts a cable card?

Well that's regrettable. Could you elaborate on why that is?

Because of complexity, and secure path requirements from the industry, and the infeasibility of decoding every QAM channel all at once. There are a lot of reasons. This has been asked for before; suffice to say, such a device is just not practically possible (or at least not at a price that anyone could afford, and it still would never meet CableCARD licensing requirements).

And, do you have any recommendations on a non-DVR solution for a set-top box that accepts a cable card?

I don't think there are any, or at least I'm not aware of any. Really, until tru2way expands beyond Chicago and Denver, there's no overriding reason for any CE vendor to make such a box. Trust me - you would not want it.

If you weren't against the DVR function I'd recommend the Sony HD DVR. That has cable card and no monthly DVR fees. I also know you would have to buy it used, since it's not being made anymore.

Because of complexity, and secure path requirements from the industry, and the infeasibility of decoding every QAM channel all at once. There are a lot of reasons. This has been asked for before; suffice to say, such a device is just not practically possible (or at least not at a price that anyone could afford, and it still would never meet CableCARD licensing requirements).

I don't think there are any, or at least I'm not aware of any. Really, until tru2way expands beyond Chicago and Denver, there's no overriding reason for any CE vendor to make such a box. Trust me - you would not want it.
Thanks.

I guess I'm just trying to find a solution that does not require me to rent any hardware or pay any subscription fee.

Comcast has an digital box that can view HD, but they charge an additional $6.50 a month. I already get local HD on my TV, and can get analog and digital stations. If I go with their "free" solution with their DTA mandate, I lose those local HD stations. I'm looking for something that I can just buy and be done with it. Since I figured Comcast uses their own proprietary hardware, I was hoping there was something that would work similar to the HD box, but would accept cable cards from the provider.


If you weren't against the DVR function I'd recommend the Sony HD DVR. That has cable card and no monthly DVR fees. I also know you would have to buy it used, since it's not being made anymore.
It's not that I'm opposed to DVRs. I'm opposed to paying over $300 for one, plus paying a subscription fee. I will not get a TiVo. And Moxi is insanely expensive for the quality that you get. A couple of years ago, I was looking into the Sony and Panasonic (or was it Pioneer?) DVRs, but the technology (especially now) wasn't quite there. Comcast is forcing me to pursue other avenues because of their ridiculous DTA mandate in my State. I'm not about to pay them another $6.50 a month for their HD tuner.

I guess I'm just trying to find a solution that does not require me to rent any hardware or pay any subscription fee.It sounds to me like you have some unrealistic expectations for current technology.

Fees are just the means to deliver expensive hardware at a price most consumers can accept. Most customers would much rather pay $6.99/mo for a STB than pay $200+ for a box, so that's the model the cable companies have settled on. Believe it or not, most cable companies do not make a profit on their STBs and DVRs. They make their money on the programming and do their best to break even (or minimize the loss) on the hardware.

Realistically, how much do you expect Comcast to charge you per month for a $220 HDTV STB? For a $400+ HDTV DVR? What about their cost to develop and improve the software? The typical product lifetime is 24-36 months, depending on the box.

It's not that I'm opposed to DVRs. I'm opposed to paying over $300 for one, plus paying a subscription fee. I will not get a TiVo. And Moxi is insanely expensive for the quality that you get. A couple of years ago, I was looking into the Sony and Panasonic (or was it Pioneer?) DVRs, but the technology (especially now) wasn't quite there. Comcast is forcing me to pursue other avenues because of their ridiculous DTA mandate in my State. I'm not about to pay them another $6.50 a month for their HD tuner.

As expensive as the TivoHD ($250 @ Amazon + fees) and Moxi ($799 without fees) are, those companies still aren't making a profit. TiVo sells their hardware for about $100 less per box than it costs them to manufacture and distribute, and they don't factor the cost of the software, support, or guide data into the price at all (hence the fee). They figure more people are willing to pay $250 + fees than $600+ without fees.

true2way will definitely help to reduce costs, as those boxes will eliminate the need for the CE manufacturers to create their own software and provide their own guide; they'll be able to use the cable company's software with the cable company's UI, guide, and advertising. But even then, you'll probably still be looking ~$200 for a HD STB, plus the cost of the CableCard (if your provider doesn't offer one for free).

Don't use the DTA. QAM tuner should pick up all the channels it does. If channel 76-8 instead of 50 bothers you then use a splitter and use DTA for SD and TV's tuner for HD.

It sounds to me like you have some unrealistic expectations for current technology.

Fees are just the means to deliver expensive hardware at a price most consumers can accept. Most customers would much rather pay $6.99/mo for a STB than pay $200+ for a box, so that's the model the cable companies have settled on. Believe it or not, most cable companies do not make a profit on their STBs and DVRs. They make their money on the programming and do their best to break even (or minimize the loss) on the hardware.

Realistically, how much do you expect Comcast to charge you per month for a $220 HDTV STB? For a $400+ HDTV DVR? What about their cost to develop and improve the software? The typical product lifetime is 24-36 months, depending on the box.

As expensive as the TivoHD ($250 @ Amazon + fees) and Moxi ($799 without fees) are, those companies still aren't making a profit. TiVo sells their hardware for about $100 less per box than it costs them to manufacture and distribute, and they don't factor the cost of the software, support, or guide data into the price at all (hence the fee). They figure more people are willing to pay $250 + fees than $600+ without fees.

true2way will definitely help to reduce costs, as those boxes will eliminate the need for the CE manufacturers to create their own software and provide their own guide; they'll be able to use the cable company's software with the cable company's UI, guide, and advertising. But even then, you'll probably still be looking ~$200 for a HD STB, plus the cost of the CableCard (if your provider doesn't offer one for free).
I would expect a product to last longer than 24 -36 months. My parents' ReplayTV lasted them over 6 years before the HDD died.

For Comcast's HD STB, assuming it were to last as long, is $6.50 per month, $78 per year, $268 for 3 years, and $468 after 6 years. Their HD DVR is $15 per month (?), $180 per year, $540 after 3 years, and $1,080 after 6 years.

TiVo's $250 hardware and $400 life-time service ($650 total) and Moxi's $800, both excluding renting the cable card, is not reasonable for my TV watching habits. All I want, is to be able to watch the local HD, encrypted HD, and all the digital channels that I'm supposed to, once Comcast does away with the analog stations and force me to switch to their Digital Started package (currently, my QAM tuner in my TV can't pick-up all of the channels on 116 because of a poor signal). Anything shows I miss I can watch off the internet.

Paying an extra $6.50 a month for the privilege of watching what my TV can mostly do on it's own also does not seem reasonable. I would have been happy with my analog service, but I'm now being forced into the DTA set top box solution. I really don't need extra remotes around the house.

This all may be fine with you, but it's not for me. I don't believe my expectations are unreasonable. They were working fine the way it was before. But, it seems, that "innovation" comes at the price of "choice".

Don't use the DTA. QAM tuner should pick up all the channels it does. If channel 76-8 instead of 50 bothers you then use a splitter and use DTA for SD and TV's tuner for HD.
My current plans are to use the QAM tuner. If I were to use the DTA, I would need to get a splitter and a switch, as my Panasonic only has one coax input. My only gripe, is that I'm being forced to switch to the Digital Starter to be able to watch the stations that I already have, but I lose out on the encrypted HD stations. Also, there's about 4 stations (CNN, Travel Channel, and Animal Planet off the top of my head) on Channel 116 that come in as a "poor signal" and does not display.

This all may be fine with you, but it's not for me. I don't believe my expectations are unreasonable. They were working fine the way it was before. But, it seems, that "innovation" comes at the price of "choice".
I'm with you 100%. I'm amazed that the industry does not have the kinds of products we desire.

Ed

I'm with you 100%. I'm amazed that the industry does not have the kinds of products we desire.

The fraction who wants what you want is so small, that no one is interested in filling the need. Cost/benefit ratios at work. That's business for you.

The fraction who wants what you want is so small, that no one is interested in filling the need. Cost/benefit ratios at work. That's business for you.
I don't get it - what's wrong with people. Don't they want something that is much better than what they have without getting gouged or severly inconvenienced?

Ed

I don't get it - what's wrong with people. Don't they want something that is much better than what they have without getting gouged or severly inconvenienced?

Where's the serious cost decrease? You pay a few bucks a month to your cable company, they give you a box, they give you a new one when it breaks, or when a new model comes out. It's not particularly awesome, but the basic cable boxes generally actually work. If you get a non-provider cable box now, you get no guide data, no iPPV, no VOD, no working SDV, and you still have to pay monthly for the CableCARD. You have to pay up front for the box, with all those drawbacks. At least with tru2way, most of those drawbacks will go away.

The majority of customers have spoken though - they don't want to pay up front, they'd rather accept a comparatively small monthly fee in perpetuity. That's how it goes. I'd like to see there be a real, practical market for non-provider tru2way boxes, but given most customers' penchant for avoiding significant up-front costs, I'm not holding my breath.

I'd like to see there be a real, practical market for non-provider tru2way boxes, but given most customers' penchant for avoiding significant up-front costs, I'm not holding my breath.

The answer is to require that all TVs be OCAP compliant and have a cable card slot. Yes, it will raise TV prices for everyone, but it probably won't be that much, and most TVs are hooked up to cable anyway.

The answer is to require that all TVs be OCAP compliant and have a cable card slot. Yes, it will raise TV prices for everyone, but it probably won't be that much, and most TVs are hooked up to cable anyway.

The cost of CableCARD certification is pretty significant, and I'm betting it'll be the same with OCAP/tru2way. You really think *every* TV vendor is going to want to go to that additional expense for their entire line? Non-cable-using customers won't be happy either, as they'll have to pay (what to them is) an irrelevant additional expense for a feature they don't care about at all.

Again, I could be wrong, but I think you're vastly oversimplifying this. It's not that simple at all.

most TVs are hooked up to cable anyway.

Roughly speaking, 60% cable, 25% satellite, 15% OTA. 40% non-cable is a pretty significant minority!

The cost of CableCARD certification is pretty significant, and I'm betting it'll be the same with OCAP/tru2way. You really think *every* TV vendor is going to want to go to that additional expense for their entire line? Non-cable-using customers won't be happy either, as they'll have to pay (what to them is) an irrelevant additional expense for a feature they don't care about at all.

Again, I could be wrong, but I think you're vastly oversimplifying this. It's not that simple at all.

Does it make any more sense that cable customers who will never connect a traditional antenna have to pay for a useless (to them) ATSC tuner? That is the law of the land for every new TV, and I think it's probably the right rule.

Along with the OCAP requirement for every TV, I would also drop the requirement (by FCC administrative fiat) that cable labs need to certify anything.

If you want to kill the need for most cable boxes, this is the way to do it. I highly doubt that anything else will work.

Why stop there? Have the FCC make up their own laws ;) and require the satco's to create a standard STB spec that anyone can implement. If it's good for cable, why not sat?

Why stop there? Have the FCC make up their own laws ;) and require the satco's to create a standard STB spec that anyone can implement. If it's good for cable, why not sat?

They probably should have done that in the first place. Likewise for cell phones (though the industry is finally moving in that direction on its own).

It's a little bit difficult to unscramble that omelette now, though.

The cost of CableCARD certification is pretty significant, and I'm betting it'll be the same with OCAP/tru2way. You really think *every* TV vendor is going to want to go to that additional expense for their entire line? Non-cable-using customers won't be happy either, as they'll have to pay (what to them is) an irrelevant additional expense for a feature they don't care about at all.The government helped antenna TV (OTA) viewers with subsidized stripped down boxes for people who aren't ready to give up their old analog TVs. It's my understanding that stripped down, mostly non interactive (they could have simple program guides) DTAs with embedded security could built and sold to cable companies for between $35 and $50 each. The FCC should allow a cable company to use such boxes on the conditions that such boxes be included with no additional lease fees in digital cable subscriptions and that the cable company also supports Tru2Way in all its other new cable boxes.

Build a cheap HTPC that takes CableCARDS, and it can stream the video out to whatever else you have. Might be kinda pricey and time consuming is the only thing.

TiVo HD is cheap these days and has two of the CC slots.

I don't think there are any, or at least I'm not aware of any. Really, until tru2way expands beyond Chicago and Denver, there's no overriding reason for any CE vendor to make such a box. Trust me - you would not want it.
Tru2way has recently been implemented in metro Atlanta, as well.

Build a cheap HTPC that takes CableCARDS, and it can stream the video out to whatever else you have. Might be kinda pricey and time consuming is the only thing.

TiVo HD is cheap these days and has two of the CC slots.

Isn't it still very difficult to roll your own Cable Card PC?

Isn't it still very difficult to roll your own Cable Card PC?

Difficult, but according to an Engadget article I saw last week, it is at least *possible*...

I'm a little late to the party, but it appears that there are some companies that are looking to put these out (hopefully soon).

Panasonic had one at the CES2010 event: http://hd.engadget.com/2010/01/11/hands-on-with-pansonics-tru2way-set-back-box/

Sony is rumored to have one as well, but that box is huge. The Panasonic one, if and when it comes out, looks to be right up my alley.