i'm toying with th idea of a diy sub project, while at the same time my wallet says to let a reputable company's engineers figure it out and buy a sub from the store.

soooo, any recommendations on window-shaking, earthquake-inducing subs to be had in the $1500 range?

so far i've been looking at CV's professional linehttp://www.cerwinvega.com/active121.php

SVS PC13-Ultra or the PB13-Ultra. :cool:

The SVS Ultra is a good choice. Also look at Elemental Designs http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=408 little over budget but dual 15in woofers massive sub. Also check Epik, http://store.epiksubwoofers.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=50 Dont know much about them but check out JTR speakers.

The SVS Ultra is a good choice. Also look at Elemental Designs http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=408 little over budget but dual 15in woofers massive sub. Also check Epik, http://store.epiksubwoofers.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=50 Dont know much about them but check out JTR speakers.

does any one know how the conquest and a7-700 do in listening tests when compared?
as size is not an issue i assume bigger is better in most cases. Sooo, it's anyone's game, but i'm steering toward the Conquest, as it is a beast.

ok, i'm back at square one, the diy's say 140db IS obtainable for roughly a $1500-1800 build.
All the suggestions are weighing heavily so keep them coming. Thanks, Phillip

For a few hundred more than you budget, you could go with the best: a Mark Seaton Submersive!

ok, i'm back at square one, the diy's say 140db IS obtainable for roughly a $1500-1800 build.
All the suggestions are weighing heavily so keep them coming. Thanks, Phillip

No $1500 commercial sub will get anywhere near 140dB. The A7-700 you cited will probably get the closest, but I'd doubt it'll get you over 125dB or so unless it's in a small room or you place right next to your listening position. Realize (if you don't already) that 140dB is ridiculously loud. Reference level for Dolby Digital requires 115dB peaks from the LFE channel. Doubling the number of identical subwoofers results in a ~6dB increase in output. Assuming a subwoofer is capable of 115dB of output at a given frequency, this is how many of that particular subwoofer it would take to give you 140dB of output at that same frequency:

115dB: 1 sub
121dB: 2 subs
127dB: 4 subs
133dB: 8 subs
139dB: 16 subs

Clearly, your only shot at getting anywhere near 140dB for $1500 is to DIY, but do you really think you'll listen that loud? While hearing sensitivity varies by frequency and individual, a common metric is that every 10dB increase in SPL is perceived as a "doubling" of loudness to the human ear. Many people consider the 115dB of Dolby reference level to be obnoxiously loud. 140dB would be perceived as over 4 times as loud. I'm not saying you shouldn't go for that kind of output, but it seems extremely impractical to me. Just some food for thought...

No $1500 commercial sub will get anywhere near 140dB. The A7-700 you cited will probably get the closest, but I'd doubt it'll get you over 125dB or so unless it's in a small room or you place right next to your listening position. Realize (if you don't already) that 140dB is ridiculously loud. Reference level for Dolby Digital requires 115dB peaks from the LFE channel. Doubling the number of identical subwoofers results in a ~6dB increase in output. Assuming a subwoofer is capable of 115dB of output at a given frequency, this is how many of that particular subwoofer it would take to give you 140dB of output at that same frequency:

115dB: 1 sub
121dB: 2 subs
127dB: 4 subs
133dB: 8 subs
139dB: 16 subs

Clearly, your only shot at getting anywhere near 140dB for $1500 is to DIY, but do you really think you'll listen that loud? While hearing sensitivity varies by frequency and individual, a common metric is that every 10dB increase in SPL is perceived as a "doubling" of loudness to the human ear. Many people consider the 115dB of Dolby reference level to be obnoxiously loud. 140dB would be perceived as over 4 times as loud. I'm not saying you shouldn't go for that kind of output, but it seems extremely impractical to me. Just some food for thought...

Very good post and strong points.


To the OP, what are you considering building that is going to reach 140db? That seams like a silly high amount of SPL, meant with all due respect.

No $1500 commercial sub will get anywhere near 140dB. The A7-700 you cited will probably get the closest, but I'd doubt it'll get you over 125dB or so unless it's in a small room or you place right next to your listening position. Realize (if you don't already) that 140dB is ridiculously loud. Reference level for Dolby Digital requires 115dB peaks from the LFE channel. Doubling the number of identical subwoofers results in a ~6dB increase in output. Assuming a subwoofer is capable of 115dB of output at a given frequency, this is how many of that particular subwoofer it would take to give you 140dB of output at that same frequency:

115dB: 1 sub
121dB: 2 subs
127dB: 4 subs
133dB: 8 subs
139dB: 16 subs

Clearly, your only shot at getting anywhere near 140dB for $1500 is to DIY, but do you really think you'll listen that loud? While hearing sensitivity varies by frequency and individual, a common metric is that every 10dB increase in SPL is perceived as a "doubling" of loudness to the human ear. Many people consider the 115dB of Dolby reference level to be obnoxiously loud. 140dB would be perceived as over 4 times as loud. I'm not saying you shouldn't go for that kind of output, but it seems extremely impractical to me. Just some food for thought...


Don't forget to substract 12db or so if you want the output at the listening position vs the one meter.

Output level is just one part of the equation, you need to know what range of frequencies.

no disrespect, i know there are ALOT of reputable, respectable audiophiles in these forums,.. IDK i guess i like loud!?

After some time it's still either the conquest or the a7-700.
How does a single 18" stack up against dual 12"s (both in single enclosures, so i wont be afforded the luxury of spreading-out the 12s)? Thanks, Phillip

140 db's is not achievable with one sub. You will need multiples. To get even close you will have to consider a Danley TH-50 and go bigger from there. That will cost you money. How big is your room and how far away will this sub be? You may want a pro sub but they won't go as deep. DIY will get you the closet for the money. For a $1500 commercial sub the Conquest will cost how much shipped?

You must have a high tolerance for bass. That's more like car audio level db's. I'm not sure what's going to happen to the Conquest as it is not in stock anymore. We think Epik [I]might[I] be working on a replacement. The A7-700 has dual 15" woofers and 1300w rms. That's 300w more than the Conquest. The A7-700 cabinet is huge at 40" deep, it takes up a large space.

currently the conquest is out-of-stock. As far as the a7-700, well the shipping is free.

no disrespect, i know there are ALOT of reputable, respectable audiophiles in these forums,.. IDK i guess i like loud!?
How loud can your speakers get?

calling epik, to find out if it is a back-order issue or if the conquest is no longer available.

Don't forget to substract 12db or so if you want the output at the listening position vs the one meter.

Output level is just one part of the equation, you need to know what range of frequencies.

Good points, Jeff. I was trying to tackle it in the most basic manner, basically stating that:

1. There's no way he'll be able to reach anywhere near 140dB with any $1500 commercial sub, and

2. 140dB is probably a lot louder than he realizes, and unless he's into car audio he probably hasn't heard a sound system that goes anywhere near that loud, so the pursuit of 140dB might be pointless.

On those notes, it's always great to get input from you, Jeff. If (or when) I end up in a larger room and require greater output than I do now, you can be sure some of your products will be on my short list :).

How loud can your speakers get?

well, as of now i only have the Denon avr-2308ci w/ Klipsch Quintet III speakers and a Klipsch SUB-10 sub for watching blu-rays (trueHD, dts-ma, etc..) in the living room. However i am now looking to you guys (thanks everyone) for advice on setting up my 2nd listening zone for pool-parties and BBQs. So far my loudspeakers consist of two Yammies and two Cerwin Vega 15's.

hopefully these epik conquest's are not unavailable (any diy recommendations for my budget? the back yard is about 60ft x 100ft)

140 is not really touchable for sub-territory with multiple pro drivers in DIY for 1.7-1.8k. Even if we castrate the deep bass, that is something like 2 x TH-115 with 2 x RMX2450. The wood and miscellaneous stuff still costs even if you build a bass horn.... If you are talking about deep bass then its at least 8 x 18" IB with at least 30mm Xmax with room gain factored in.

Jeff's Growlers (duals) can do nearly 140 at 1m and that's at 1.8k passive, -10dB at 35Hz. Get 2 x EP2500 and you are in biz. :D Since its for pool parties, I don't think the choice of music program would need you to dig low much. We want kick here, probably just enough for your 100ft by 60 ft intended coverage. :D

If you really wanna stick to your budget, 1 growler with 1 EP2500 would do ~ 130 1m. It most probably would sound better than Cerwin Vega. :cool:

Cerwin Vega 21". 135dB from 2000 watts. Working backwards that means sensitivity of about 102dB. I very highly doubt the specs are accurate with just a vented enclosure for sub freqs, no graphs available too.

http://www.jtrspeakers.com/growler.html

Wow, I just had to read again that he wants 140db. That is insane and quite detrimental to your hearing for any sustained periods.


Weakest sound heard 0dB
Whisper Quiet Library 30dB
Normal conversation (3-5') 60-70dB
Telephone dial tone 80dB
City Traffic (inside car) 85dB
Train whistle at 500', Truck Traffic 90dB
Subway train at 200' 95dB

Level at which sustained exposure may result in hearing loss 90 - 95dB

Power mower at 3' 107dB
Snowmobile, Motorcycle 100dB
Power saw at 3' 110dB
Sandblasting, Loud Rock Concert 115dB
Pain begins 125dB
Pneumatic riveter at 4' 125dB

Even short term exposure can cause permanent damage - Loudest recommended exposure WITH hearing protection 140dB

Jet engine at 100', Gun Blast 140dB
Death of hearing tissue 180dB
Loudest sound possible 194dB

I agree, 140 db's is attainable, but not for $1500. I can reach 133 db's right now but my amps clip so if I had more power I could get to 136 db's(A big maybe). I have $3200 invested using Behringer ep-2500's amps which are the cheapest big power amps and eD drivers which are inexpensive for 18's. My subs cost $400 each to make with an amp channel of the behringer.

Just a guess, but maybe a bunch of pro drivers in folded horns (or tapped horns) powered by a single ep2500 would get you there?

You'd have to build them out of OSB to keep the cost down, and they would be way to huge too actually fit inside a house (if you wanted 20hz), but they would get you to 140db for around that cost.

Edit: Just did some calculations and 4-6 tapped horns using B&C PS100 drivers (or similar) will get you 140db. If you built tall ones then it shouldn't take up too much space. You just loose about 20 inches along your entire front wall. Figure around $200 for building materials, $800-1200 for drivers and $260 for the amp. Should take two people about a week or two to make them, depending on how much bracing/testing you do. This will be a very high efficiency system and you'd get 140db at 1m with only around 300watts!

If you don't have tools, then you could buy them used on Craig's List and then sell them when your done.
All you really need is a circular saw, router, saw horses and misc stuff like hammer and straight edges.

Plans for a 18hz (IIRC) tapped horn are here
http://www.volvotreter.de/th.htm

For a few hundred more than you budget, you could go with the best: a Mark Seaton Submersive!

+1 Definitely!

For outdoor parties, deep bass isn't required. Stick with horns (folded or tapped) because they're efficient.

For outdoor parties, deep bass isn't required. Stick with horns (folded or tapped) because they're efficient.

so i should be shooting for 40-140Hz?
Eventually the sub will be integrated into the HT (after i upgrade from the Klipsch Quintets this february '10), so it would need to "go low", or at least be able to touch 15Hz-20Hz.
Thanks, Phillip

The tapped horns that I linked above go down to 18hz or so. They will give you 140db from 18-80hz.

A front loaded horn will be more effecient (you'll need less of them) and cover a wider, but higher bandwidth (approx 40-250hz).

The tapped horns that I linked above go down to 18hz or so. They will give you 140db from 18-80hz.

A front loaded horn will be more effecient (you'll need less of them) and cover a wider, but higher bandwidth (approx 40-250hz).

could i bother you for a link to some of your stuff steve?
Thanks, Phillip

could i bother you for a link to some of your stuff steve?
Thanks, Phillip

I built a double folded tapped horn and it's on page 95 of this thread.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=97674&perpage=25&pagenumber=95

Single folds are easier to build, so unless you need one that's more square than long stick to something like Erik's design.

http://www.volvotreter.de/th.htm

However if you want a folded horn google LABhorn.

You can also buy Tapped horns but a single on would put you over budget. Check out http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/tapped%20horn%20overview.html

Maybe also ask around on the various pro sound forums for ideas.

Thanks to everyone for steering me toward exceptional choices, also a special thanks to MKtheater for solidifying my assumption that the Epik is for me. I'll be back to post pics as soon as Epic starts turning more of these bad-boys out.

Steve, you have high regards in this community, so i'll ask plainly with no disrespect intended. Is the Conquest going to do what i want it to do?

so i should be shooting for 40-140Hz?
Eventually the sub will be integrated into the HT (after i upgrade from the Klipsch Quintets this february '10), so it would need to "go low", or at least be able to touch 15Hz-20Hz.
Thanks, Phillip

No need to go low, use a horn. You add a second sub for the low end when you place in the HT.

Steve, you have high regards in this community

No, not really :confused:

so i'll ask plainly with no disrespect intended. Is the Conquest going to do what i want it to do?

According to the measurements linked below, the Conquest will do around 112 db corner loaded at 1 meter.

So it would take 6 of them corner loaded to do 140db.

http://epiksubwoofers.com/C2.pdf

They are great value for money, but if you really do want to do 140db @ 20hz outside then you'll need to DIY some horns.

No need to go low, use a horn. You add a second sub for the low end when you place in the HT.

Yes, this is probably the best idea. :)

My IB was about $2300 (drivers, amp, not wood) and I've seen peaks around 126-128db. That is extremely loud and everything is vibrating. I've experienced a few "SPL" effects where my ears feel stressed after such sequences. Going over 130db is pointless and dangerous.

Very good post and strong points.


To the OP, what are you considering building that is going to reach 140db? That seams like a silly high amount of SPL, meant with all due respect.

Back when i was in the car audio scene, i had a friend who had a nissan 240sx hatch that would do 147db, i can't possibly imagine why anyone would want to be able to sustain that kind of output. When we did that in his car it was for very short bursts just for shits n' giggles. If you listen to anything like that for more than a few seconds i can guarantee you will have permanent hearing dmg.

140db+ is literally painful, it hurts. Like i said, its fun for a couple seconds to basically get a bit of an adrenaline rush, but i couldnt imagine watching a movie or something like that where every time there was a loud bass hit, i.e. a car crashing, or dinosaur stomping, etc, that it was 140db of bass, i'd be surprised if anyone made it through the whole 2 hour movie.

My wife is a sign language interpreter. What is your address so that I can send her business card. You are going to need it!

my wife is a sign language interpreter. What is your address so that i can send her business card. You are going to need it!

^^^^lmao!^^^^

I once had dual Madison folded horn 18 inch subs in my room and I could easily reach 125 db's in my room down to 25 hz. This was not even max. They cost me $700. $1000 with an amp. 4 of those is around $2000 with 2 Behringer EP-2500's and that would get you very close. They did have great sound. I still prefer my DIY subs but the Midbass from the horns were breath taking, literally. The Conquest would still not touch the horns or DIY for SPL/$.

130 db's is tolerable in a treated room. I do it all the time for crazy demos. Just to wow the newbies. Then I turn it down and watch a movie at 121 db's or so( just bass). 140 db's would not be tolerable, the pressure on the ears would be painful without earplugs.

Go to a NHRA drag race. Watch a couple of funny cars and then tell me you need 5 more db than that.

Are we not talking about just the bass frequencies. The highs at over 110 db's will start to ring your ears.

I don't know the sound frequency of the nitromethane engines but they have registered 2.0 to 3.9 on the richter scale.

I'm kind of curious to hear what is the most powerful commercial sub (home or pro) within about 4-5,000$.

The Submersive? The TH-50? Some of the pro JBL subs such as http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/general/Product.aspx?PId=171&MId=2 ?

Sustained exposure to 85 db in the midrange will cause permanent ear damage.

Someone probably already said this but:

140 DB = Firearms, Air Raid Sirens, Jet Engines

Do you know how many veterans suffered hearing damage due weapon fire?

I'm kind of curious to hear what is the most powerful commercial sub (home or pro) within about 4-5,000$.

The Submersive? The TH-50? Some of the pro JBL subs such as http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/general/Product.aspx?PId=171&MId=2 ?

As has already been mentioned (by MKTheater) it depends on the frequency. He found that Madison folded horns were literally breath taking in the mid-bass.

You should check the threads about Danley. Also, Mark Seaton can create something called the Terraform XL, that might come in under $5,000.

No disrespect to the OP, but have you heard 140?

140 is uncomfortable... Vision will start to blur, and the uninitiated might even get physically ill.

That said, good luck!

:)

As has already been mentioned (by MKTheater) it depends on the frequency. He found that Madison folded horns were literally breath taking in the mid-bass.

You should check the threads about Danley. Also, Mark Seaton can create something called the Terraform XL, that might come in under $5,000.

I was referring to 200 Hz to about 20 Hz so its a wide spectrum, I'm sure it varies here and there but was just wondering on a general scale. Could you provide a link for the Madisons? I've read some threads on Danley which have interested me and from what I gather they are immense but I do not quite fathom how they stack up against the Submersive in terms of pure raw SPL. If I had to pick a smaller range then 40-100 Hz.

If I am not mistaken the Terraform XL is better below 30 Hz and above that the Submersive is louder? I remember reading something along those lines somewhere.

Any thoughts on how the JBL would do against these two?

What if the OP wanted 140db, but was likely going to have people listening in a large area? People that were 100ft away would then have around 112db, where-as the people right by the speakers would have the full on 140db...but how many people are going to have their heads right by the subwoofers?

Yes, we all know 140db is loud, can the preaching stop?

What if the OP wanted 140db, but was likely going to have people listening in a large area? People that were 100ft away would then have around 112db, where-as the people right by the speakers would have the full on 140db...but how many people are going to have their heads right by the subwoofers?

Yes, we all know 140db is loud, can the preaching stop?

We're preaching because we don't think the OP knows how loud 140dB is.

For me, 100dB can drive me nuts.

i'm toying with th idea of a diy sub project, while at the same time my wallet says to let a reputable company's engineers figure it out and buy a sub from the store.

soooo, any recommendations on window-shaking, earthquake-inducing subs to be had in the $1500 range?

so far i've been looking at CV's professional linehttp://www.cerwinvega.com/active121.php

then go the heck over to the diy board and post there. :-) for $1500, you can get 3 kilowatts of power and dual 18", hi_xmax, linear drivers or quad 15"s. lots of options. in any case, you will be way over full reference spl as low in frequency as you want to go. commercial equivalent is in the neighborhood of $6k or more.

Sustained exposure to 85 db in the midrange will cause permanent ear damage.

Someone probably already said this but:

140 DB = Firearms, Air Raid Sirens, Jet Engines

Do you know how many veterans suffered hearing damage due weapon fire?

you have no idea what you are talking about.

first, bass does not set the threshold. this is why spl competitions don't blow people's ear out. you can take 15-20 db higher spl in the bass than in the midrange before damage.

second, hearing is adaptive. muscles in our ears contract to reduce spl as a protective measure.

third, listening to a loud song or two is totally different from listening to sine waves for eight hours straight. keep the context.

fourth, sound power in music is bass heavy. 10-15db higher than the midrange.

fifth, thx reference spl is 85 db. so according to you, everbody who goes to a thx theater comes out with permanent hearing loss. hmm...:rolleyes:

No disrespect to the OP, but have you heard 140?

140 is uncomfortable... Vision will start to blur, and the uninitiated might even get physically ill.

That said, good luck!

:)

basspig would disagree. you just have to learn how to breath "between notes" as it were. ;-)

http://www.basspig.com/

No disrespect to the OP, but have you heard 140?

140 is uncomfortable... Vision will start to blur, and the uninitiated might even get physically ill.

That said, good luck!

:)

Yeah, i've been told your eyes can "shake", IDK, we'll see.....

[QUOTE=Looneybomber;16361611]What if the OP wanted 140db, but was likely going to have people listening in a large area? People that were 100ft away would then have around 112db, where-as the people right by the speakers would have the full on 140db...but how many people are going to have their heads right by the subwoofers?

My thoughts exactly,..

then go the heck over to the diy board and post there. :-) for $1500, you can get 3 kilowatts of power and dual 18", hi_xmax, linear drivers or quad 15"s. lots of options. in any case, you will be way over full reference spl as low in frequency as you want to go. commercial equivalent is in the neighborhood of $6k or more.


Read the post man, you would know i was looking for a commercial alternative to diy spl. I set the price where it is because multiples (enclosures) is not a problem.

How about a Tuba THT? If you use OSB and then paint it, shouldn't be too expensive for the materials. Do 2 corner loaded with 2 x EP2500 you should hit about mid 130s at 20Hz, 140 and above about 23Hz up.

http://www.billfitzmaurice.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=953

Epik, ED, SVS...whatever. Do the math, for multiples add 6dB considering best case scenario.
Eg 1 cab = 116. 2cabs = 124. 4 cabs = 130. 8 cabs = 136. With room gain you should just about get there @ sufficient bass extension with about 4 Epik Conquests, if its still available.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/5748-cea-2010-standard-compilation-new-information.html

Do note that in an open half-space setting like your pool side parties, you will wonder where has the bass gone to.

What if the OP wanted 140db, but was likely going to have people listening in a large area?

Yes, we all know 140db is loud, can the preaching stop?

Thought OP wanna also use this in a 2nd zone 100ft open setting as indicated a few posts down in the first page. When moved into the house, you don't need to use the extra headroom, that's why the volume control is there. :) Low distortion.... You'll need it for the peaks like drum whacks. Of course for stuff like Trance (pretty continuous drone)you need to be careful. Having high SPL capability doesn't mean nil discipline, its like owning a high performance sports car.

I just heard 4x Tuba T48s, that's well over 140 1m. Heck WTF would stand just 1m in front of the beasts? :p The whole frigging ballroom floor was like vibrating 10 metres away. My ears are still working.

http://www.billfitzmaurice.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=440

Remember, bass SPL is addictive esp if its clean. Better do it "more" than "lesser" and regret later.