Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread (NEW FIRMWARE V1.1) [Text View]

Manni01

04-28-09, 10:28 AM

[EDIT 06-05-09: I have edited this first post to add some info from the first calibration thread and to make it a useful table of content to the new calibration and CMS thread]

This thread is a continuation of the original official RS20/hd750 calibration and CMS thread here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15314888#post15314888.

As the old calibration thread is mostly obsolete regarding CMS calibration with the arrival of the new firmware, we have decided to start afresh!

First things first, you need to upgrade the firmware before using the tips available in this thread.

A - NEW FIRMWARE
Where to get the firmware update (and common installation issues): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16355768#post16355768
CAUTION: the new firmware erases ALL settings, so if you have general settings or calibration settings you wish to keep, make sure you make note of them before upgrading.

There is a wealth of knowledge regarding greyscale and gamma calibration in the original calibration thread. So here is a list of the most important posts which are still mostly relevant with the new firmware:

B - GREYSCALE: (from original thread, but info still relevant)
Before we get into CMS settings, the first thing to do is to get the best possible greyscale using only color temps adjustments, as this will make a huge difference with THX (and other presets). As already reported, some excellent tips are available here to achieve this from Mark Petersen Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15460906#post15460906) and also from Googer and others in the rest of the thread, here is one of Googer's great posts about gamma: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15522847#post15522847]

C - TWEAKED THX (from original thread, but info still relevant)
Once you have a custom color temp that gives you as perfect a greyscale as possible, the next step is to select the THX preset and enter the service mode (up/down/right/left/enter as fast as possible, either on the remote or the pj). [DISCLAIMER: be very careful when in this mode, you enter it at your own risks, if you make a mistake, don't blame me!]. You can then select a different color temp (for example the custom one you've just tweaked;)), and this will be the color temp used by THX. You can now exit the service mode. This will make a HUGE difference to the ootb THX preset, as it will use a greyscale which is likely to be pretty good from 30 IRE up to 100 IRE, instead of a greyscale which is quite flat but off badly over the whole range, whether in normal or high lamp. More info about achieving this here Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread - Page 29 - AVS Forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15505073#post15505073)

If you like this "tweaked THX" preset, which is very close to rec709 - although slightly undersaturated for some - with a standard gamma, you can stop here and enjoy your PJ. If you do find it undersaturated, you can add anything from 1 to 12 - depending on your taste - to the general color control (I personally add 1-5 depending on source). That's it. Job done.

If you want to go one step further, and be able to use a custom gamma, sharpness and detail enhancement controls and adjust the gamut to Rec709, SMPTE-C or to your own taste, then have fun with the next section which is mostly about custom CMS settings...

D - CUSTOM SETTINGS, REPORTS and CALIBRATION TIPS with the NEW FIRMWARE

As members post reports/settings and calibration tips in the thread, I'll try to update this section with the most significant contributions (in chronological order).
Please let me know if I have forgotten something or if I get sloppy updating...:)

Reports from the pros:
GregR : http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16360087#post16360087
Tom Huffman: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16383023#post16383023
Tom Huffman#2: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16431819#post16431819

Settings:
Manni01 (1.4 gain screen): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16365507#post16365507
JeffY: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16371803#post16371803
Karrih: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16380924#post16380924
008: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16383359#post16383359
Nelson4u: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16388557#post16388557
Ignace: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16389657#post16389657
LovingDVD: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16482286#post16482286
Lawguy: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16428562#post16428562
Manni01 (1.2 gain screen): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16431351#post16431351
MarcelW: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16433669#post16433669
Lawguy LT vs i1Pro http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16438408#post16438408
RickS (HDMI Enhanced): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16630004#post16630004
Manni01: back to 1.1 gain/new lamp, and HDMI Enhanced, settings for Rec709 and SMPTE-C http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16662220#post16662220
Manni01: updated Rec709 and SMPTE-C calibrations, along with a PAL calibration: http://www.avforums.com/forums/dlp-lcd-d-ila-projectors/888135-jvc-hd-750-mini-review-first-impressions-calibration-attempt-28.html#post9767111

Calibration Tips:
Classic beginner's mistake and link to Tom Huffman's CMS calibration tutorial and GregR's calculator thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16370193#post16370193
How to use filters to check brightness (LovingDVD): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16372917#post16372917
When/why NOT to use filters (GregR & Tom Huffman): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16373717#post16373717 and http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16380651#post16380651
dE discussion: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16374865#post16374865
Tom Huffman's spreadsheet for CIELUV: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16378927#post16378927
GregR's DisplayCalibration Calculator: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16382042#post16382042
Get a screenshot in HCFR: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16383268#post16383268
Which USB cable for the firmware upgrade?: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16383437#post16383437
Training a meter to another in HCFR: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16384494#post16384494
Adjusting greyscale (GregR): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16387960#post16387960
Link to Calibration for Dummies: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16402839#post16402839
Use of filter and calibration tips (Darinp2): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16431819#post16431819
Saturation levels explained (Tom Huffman): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16439382#post16439382
Sharpness/focus adjustment tips (GregR / LeDahu / Deanbob): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16689752#post16689752
Great tips/tools for gamma calibration (LovingDVD / LeDahu): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17017488#post17017488
Gamma tweaking V1.2 (english translation and VERY IMPORTANT SPECIAL PROCEDURE): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17045339#post17045339
Gamma tweaking V2 (Le Dahu): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17060116#post17060116
Contrast and RGB (Tom Huffman et al): http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17150298#post17150298

REST OF INITIAL POST:

I have done a first attempt with the new firmware, and the news is mostly good!

- The range for the controls has been extended from -60 to 60 (instead of -30 to 30), which gives enough range to dial the gamut perfectly without touching the general color control. Well done JVC!

- The linearity is good but not perfect. Most colors stay where they should, but green seems to be a bit oversaturated at 75% when calibrating at 100%. Nothing compared to the first firmware, but still not perfect. [edit: this was due to an error on my side, there is NO LINEARITY problem with the new firmware].

- I had only time for a quick calibration today, so I'll post more later. I attach my HCFR files for those who want to have a look at the details (EDIT: I used a brand new i1pro to calibrate).

If you want to try my settings (only after upgrading the firmware), here they are:

[EDIT: please do not use these settings, I and others have posted updated settings, see links above].

Contrast=0
Brightness=0
Color=0
Tint=0

Color temp (new lamp, probably not useful for most of you)
Gain R=-24, G=0, B=-54
Offset R=-1 G=-3 B=0

CMS (H,S,B)
Red -4 -23 7
Yellow 22 -44 38
Green -5 -39 44
Cyan -3 -48 39
Blue 37 -8 -4
Magenta -6 0 -3

I didn't have time to do any fine-tuning on gamma etc...

JeffY

04-28-09, 10:32 AM

I had a quick play, colour ramps look good, no clipping going on. :)

Manni01

04-28-09, 10:35 AM

I had a quick play, colour ramps look good, no clipping going on. :)

Yes, clipping is fine, but did you find the same slight oversaturation for green at 75%?

Shepardos

04-28-09, 10:49 AM

Manni01

04-28-09, 10:55 AM

I have similar results as Manni but totaly differnt CMS settings. Please have a look on this results. It should be ok? I'm not a expert maybe I miss something?

CMS (H,S,B)
Red 9 -21 8
Yellow 0 -46 36
Green -3 -44 33
Cyan -2 -51 40
Blue 56 -2 -4
Magenta 5 -25 12

Where comes the big difference?

I have no idea. I used a brand new i1 pro to calibrate, which meter are you using?
Also could you post your data for primaries and secondaries, the second .jpg shows up blank on my PC.

TomHuffman

04-28-09, 11:00 AM

Yes, clipping is fine, but did you find the same slight oversaturation for green at 75%?It is not just oversaturation. Green is also too bright.

100% 75%
R 1.4 1.1
G 0.1 8.8
B 1.9 1.6
Y 0.6 2.5
C 0.9 0.8
M 0.4 1.0

It all looks good, except for green. 8.8 is a very large CIE94 error. You should try calibrating at 75% and then see how 100% measures. You might get better results.

Other than green, everything else looks good. Yellow is a little high, but that is mostly a hue error, which should be easy to fix.

JeffY

04-28-09, 11:09 AM

Yes, clipping is fine, but did you find the same slight oversaturation for green at 75%?

I've not measured it yet, just looking at test patterns.

Shepardos

04-28-09, 11:17 AM

I use a i1 LT meter but I think this should not be the big differnce!? I attached again the measures for primary and secondary. The results should be ok!?

Can somebody exlpain how to messure 75% Colors and what is the benefit?

I do the mesures on High Lamp maybe this makes also some difference?

Manni01

04-28-09, 11:17 AM

It is not just oversaturation. Green is also too bright.

100% 75%
R 1.4 1.1
G 0.1 8.8
B 1.9 1.6
Y 0.6 2.5
C 0.9 0.8
M 0.4 1.0

It all looks good, except for green. 8.8 is a very large CIE94 error. You should try calibrating at 75% and then see how 100% measures. You might get better results.

Other than green, everything else looks good. Yellow is a little high, but that is mostly a hue error, which should be easy to fix.

Thanks for the feedback Tom.

I did this quite quickly, so there is definitely a margin for progression!

I'll try to calibrate at 75% and see if it helps with green.

But it's already a fantastic improvement, it's great to have a working CMS!:D:cool:

JeffY

04-28-09, 11:22 AM

I have similar results as Manni but totaly differnt CMS settings. Please have a look on this results. It should be ok? I'm not a expert maybe I miss something?

CMS (H,S,B)
Red 9 -21 8
Yellow 0 -46 36
Green -3 -44 33
Cyan -2 -51 40
Blue 56 -2 -4
Magenta 5 -25 12

Where comes the big difference?

Your blue looks highly suspect, thats a huge change in hue and I'd expect lower saturation and higher brightness needed. The other figures look plausible.

Jeff

R Harkness

04-28-09, 11:22 AM

JeffY

04-28-09, 11:26 AM

Shepardos

04-28-09, 11:31 AM

Your blue looks highly suspect, thats a huge change in hue and I'd expect lower saturation and higher brightness needed. The other figures look plausible.

Jeff

Do you had a look on the results?

Blue
x 0.153474
y 0.062591
Y 3.705049
dE 3.8
dxy 0.004
dlu -1.8%

Should be good or do you see anything wrong?

JeffY

04-28-09, 11:35 AM

I didn't look at the results, it's just the settings that look odd. It could be an indication that the probe is inaccurate/faulty.

Manni01

04-28-09, 11:36 AM

Guys,

I'd like to know what real-world, perceptible, visual, subjective difference you are seeing...or expect to see...with this CMS fix.

When I asked in the older thread "What is it that's wrong with the current CMS?" I got technical explanations on the order of "you can't adjust X parameter without affecting Z parameter". Unfortunately for someone like me who has never used a CMS it's still "Greek to me." I'm interested to know the end result of the issues - how things look.

How would we expect the new CMS to improve the images?

Many thanks.

The new CMS allows you to get accurate colors without losing control over the other elements of the picture (primarily sharpness and gamma).

Until now, you could have accurate colors with THX, but no custom gamma and no advanced controls (sharpness, detail enhancement).

If you wanted to adjust the color gamut to your taste, you had to compromise on accuracy as clipping occured when some controls were used in user mode.

Now you can get the best of both worlds: dial the gamut the way you like (bang on Rec709 or to your own taste) and keep control on all the other elements of the picture.

The main visual difference if you want accurate colors will be the use of a custom gamma with THX-accurate colors. In a bat cave, many felt the 2.1 gamma of THX was too low.

So basically, the new CMS offers freedom and accuracy!

stereomandan

04-28-09, 11:44 AM

This is great news for you guys! Once you are happy with a calibration with the new firmware, could one of you measure all the saturation windows (all 30 of them) using HCFR and the AVSHD disc? Then post the HCFR file? I just want to make sure the CMS is truely fixed, and that lower saturations aren't severely impacted.

Dan

Manni01

04-28-09, 11:51 AM

BIGLook

04-28-09, 11:54 AM

Hi,
Is this a UK issue only ?

JVC US said the US version of the RS20 has a correctly working CMS and this does not apply.

Thanks for any clarification.

-BB

Lawguy

04-28-09, 11:56 AM

Hi,
Is this a UK issue only ?

JVC US said the US version of the RS20 has a correctly working CMS and this does not apply.

Thanks for any clarification.

-BB

Whoever told you that is wrong.

stereomandan

04-28-09, 11:56 AM

mark haflich

04-28-09, 12:07 PM

The UK is US allie, why would they tell you its only the british verson that was wrong? No real foul though.

millerwill

04-28-09, 12:08 PM

Manni, Is it possible to use a Mac to do the new FW upgrade?

Manni01

04-28-09, 12:19 PM

Manni, Is it possible to use a Mac to do the new FW upgrade?

Not as far as I know, the upgrade software is a PC .exe, and all the drivers are for XP/Vista.

It may work with parallel, but I wouldn't risk bricking an rs20 with an experiment like this!!!!

millerwill

04-28-09, 12:21 PM

Not as far as I know, the upgrade software is a PC .exe, and all the drivers are for XP/Vista.

It may work with parallel, but I wouldn't risk bricking an rs20 with an experiment like this!!!!

OK, will borrow my daughter's PC.

Manni01

04-28-09, 12:22 PM

OK, will borrow my daughter's PC.

Sounds safer!;)

BIGLook

04-28-09, 12:24 PM

The UK is US allie, why would they tell you its only the british verson that was wrong? No real foul though.

Hi,
That is my question/confusion..

I have spoken with JVC US several times on this issue... last week and today.

They insist the 'US MODEL' does not have a CMS issue and that they are 'not' working on any firmware updates at this time.

Maybe no one has complained.. and they just don't know..

The only reason I care is because I have a calibration scheduled and want to nail this issue first, for obvious reasons.

If any US users do apply the firmware with success, I would appreciate any feedback.

Thanks all !
-BB

R Harkness

04-28-09, 12:28 PM

Thanks for the replies about the CMS and it's results on the picture.

Go thread go! :D:)

heja

04-28-09, 12:31 PM

Downloaded the file from JVC but are not able to run it? Any tips? The file seems not to have an extention (exe) that makes it possible to run it...

Mike_WI

04-28-09, 12:33 PM

Hi,
That is my question/confusion..

I have spoken with JVC US several times on this issue... last week and today.

They insist the 'US MODEL' does not have a CMS issue and that they are 'not' working on any firmware updates at this time.

Maybe no one has complained.. and they just don't know..

The only reason I care is because I have a calibration scheduled and want to nail this issue first, for obvious reasons.

If any US users do apply the firmware with success, I would appreciate any feedback.

Thanks all !
-BB
I'm also getting a calibration soon, so I think this is of general interest.

Also, is this not a JVC (US) supported FW update?
:confused:

Mike

JeffY

04-28-09, 12:36 PM

Downloaded the file from JVC but are not able to run it? Any tips? The file seems not to have an extention (exe) that makes it possible to run it...

rename the file to add the .exe

mark haflich

04-28-09, 12:40 PM

I don`t know who at JVC you are getting your info from. there are many many US model members posting here. I doubt there are any differences between the UK model and the US model other than the power cord used. The CMS in all US models was not properly designed, pure and simple. JVC has now fixed the problems. Down load the new CMS software to your projector. Turn it on and run it for about 80 hours before you pay for a calibration. If your calibrator is any good, and probably more are less good than they should be, i.e., get a proven professional with lots of experience, not just someone who passed some ISF test, you will have accurate colors. You will not get the benifits possible from your machine without the new software.

Penguin

04-28-09, 12:54 PM

4. Hold down the Standby/On button on the projector and plug the mains lead
back in while still holding the button down. The three LEDs on the projector
should all light to show that the projector is in Download Mode.

Help me! Hold down Standby/On button,But three LEDs can't light , us model. what's wrong?
Thanks!

JeffY

04-28-09, 12:56 PM

Is the USB cable plugged in and connected to the running PC/laptop?

Mark Petersen

04-28-09, 01:02 PM

Glad to hear this thing has officially been released. I'll give it a try soon.

Penguin

04-28-09, 01:12 PM

Is the USB cable plugged in and connected to the running PC/laptop?
Thanks! USB cable,PC and ILAFPJ driver ...All of Correct.
still holding Standby/On button is POWER ON, not in Download mode.

my rs20 service menu:
-----------------------
Model: HD750/RS20
Main: 081130
Sub: 2008.12.4.1-O
dd: 091d88
Location: US

heja

04-28-09, 01:30 PM

rename the file to add the .exe

Thanks! It worked :|-D

JeffY

04-28-09, 01:41 PM

Pengiun, I'm not sure what the problem is. Presumably the projector just powered on as normal? Have you tried again since?

Penguin

04-28-09, 01:49 PM

Pengiun, I'm not sure what the problem is. Presumably the projector just powered on as normal? Have you tried again since?
Thanks JeffY
my rs20 remove the mains lead, waitting for 20 mins, Standby LED always RED.

UPDATE PROJECTOR FIRMWARE
With the projector in Standby mode, remove the mains lead from the projector
and wait until the Standby LED goes out.

JeffY

04-28-09, 01:57 PM

The standby light stays on even with no power cable plugged in? That is odd, eventually it must go out. On my unit it took about 5 seconds for the light to go out.

Penguin

04-28-09, 02:09 PM

ok! if remove power cable. standby light 5 sec off.
but remove main lead = remove power cable ?:confused:

JeffY

04-28-09, 02:11 PM

the mains lead is the power cable.

Penguin

04-28-09, 02:43 PM

JeffY, Thank you very very ..... much:)

my rs20 new service menu:
-----------------------
Model: HD750/RS20
Main: 081130
Sub: 2009.4.8.1-O
dd: 091d88
Location: US

CMS,Gamma,user1~3...... all reset
OK! new firmware Use in Location: UK / US / JP......

JeffY

04-28-09, 02:46 PM

No problem. :)

Manni01

04-28-09, 02:47 PM

Could we try as much as possible to keep this thread for calibration reports/questions, and the firmware upgrade thread for, well, the firmware upgrade questions:)? Just trying to avoid having ten pages about the upgrading process and keep some clarity for the calibration process itself... Also we know that GaryB is monitoring that thread, so you'll probably get faster support from him there as well (not that JeffY is not doing a fantastic job both here and there of course!).

KTTV Images

04-28-09, 03:27 PM

Manni, Jeffy:

Many thanks for your feedback.
Is it clear that the new CMS firmware is modular to the extent that loading the new CMS firmware affects only the CMS settings and behavior?

In other words is it clear that the new CMS firmware has no effect on previous/existing Gamma and Gray Scale Calibration settings? I assume THX behavior has not been impacted..is that correct?

Thanks
KT

JeffY

04-28-09, 03:35 PM

ALL settings get reset, including things like the ceiling mount setting. THX looks the same to me but I have not measured it.

jlanzy

04-28-09, 03:45 PM

I had Jason calibrate my RS20 when I got it from him in Jan. Would there be much of an imporvement if I had Jason update the firmware and recalibrate the projector? I am quite pleased with the image already.

JimmyR

04-28-09, 03:46 PM

Agreed, the new firmware seems to completly re-write everything to factory default settings and I can't see any change to the image compared from memory with the original firmware THX mode .

SteveMo

04-28-09, 03:49 PM

The THX mode is not effected by the firmware.

RickS

04-28-09, 03:53 PM

mark haflich

04-28-09, 04:03 PM

Probably not. Because of the old control interactions and non linearity.

Manni01

04-28-09, 04:09 PM

Hi,

Thanks to everyone that have made the effort to get this update done. One question? I wonder if after the firmware update is done if I put back my calibration numbers that I have will I get back to the same picture?

You may if you're talking about color temp/greyscale, you probably won't re gamut, and frankly I can't think of any reason why anyone would want to do that, given the much better results offered by the new CMS.

Yes, as JeffY said, all the parameters reset to factory defaults when installing the new software, so beware if there are any settings you'd like to keep (especially not calibration related ones if you haven't setup your PJ yourself).

RickS

04-28-09, 04:11 PM

Thanks, Mark!

I had my projector calibrated by Michael TLV. I may do the firmware update and get him to come back for a tune up. :)

RickS

04-28-09, 04:17 PM

Manni, thanks for the reply!

I was just wondering because the calibrated picture that I have now is the best of all the settings. I don't have the equipment to do the calibration by myself. Having it professionally done was the best money I have spent in relation to amount spent on the hardware. :)

JeffY

04-28-09, 04:21 PM

I think that if you put all the settings back in (including CMS settings) you would get a similarish picture, it might even be an improvement on what you had. Ideally you need to re-calibrate, but if you need to get someone in, the previous settings would probably be fine for a while. Try it, if it looks crap just stick it in THX mode.

RickS

04-28-09, 04:28 PM

Jeff,
I guess the only way we would know for sure, is that if one of you guys that have done this puts back your numbers and checks the results.

Manni01

04-28-09, 04:36 PM

Jeff,
I guess the only way we would know for sure, is that if one of you guys that have done this puts back your numbers and checks the results.

My advice is, if you're happy with the picture, keep it as it is until you need to recalibrate it (new lamp?). I wouldn't erase a professionally done calibration for a DIY one if you're not experienced. I wouldn't either upgrade the firmware if you don't plan to do your own calibration (or to get one done right away), as it won't bring you anything... Just my .2 cents...

RickS

04-28-09, 04:43 PM

Manni,
The picture is very good, but even as good as it is the calibration fell short for many of the reasons discussed here. Just knowing that we can get it dialed in a little closer has me weighing my options. Thanks for your input!!!

lovingdvd

04-28-09, 04:50 PM

The linearity is good but not perfect. Most colors stay where they should, but green seems to be a bit oversaturated at 75% when calibrating at 100%. Nothing compared to the first firmware, but still not perfect.

Hi Manni - thanks for all the reports/updates. I was rather surprised to read the quote above based on Phil's review a couple weeks back. It seemed from Phil's review he put the CMS through some extensive testing, and I don't recall any such findings from him.

It will be interesting to hear your results when calibrating at 75%. I suspect the opposite may happen (on target at 75%, then somewhat undersaturated at 100%).

Unfortunately I am super busy with work and don't know when I'll get a chance to dig in, because I know it'll be an extensive exercise once I do. :)

It'is great to hear that the clipping issues are history and I look forward to reading more about your and others findings with the 75% vs 100% linearity tracking.

Also - I know you are aware of this and this was a very preliminary calibration just to get a feel for the new firmware, but I'd recommend dialing in your grayscale much flatter sooner than later. It wouldn't affect linearity but will affect the color tracking otherwise.

KTTV Images

04-28-09, 04:53 PM

Yes, as JeffY said, all the parameters reset to factory defaults when installing the new software, so beware if there are any settings you'd like to keep (especially not calibration related ones if you haven't setup your PJ yourself).

As I understand it, you are reporting that all settings are lost.
It is reasonable that all settings will be lost when installing the new firmware, but I did not really ask the right question in my last post. This is what I meant to ask:
Based on your visual observations after installation of the new firmware and after resetting any original settings lost during the installation - are the original Calibrated Color Temp and Gamma performances you saw restored? This should be the case if the CMS firmware is a separate module from that for the Gamma firmware module and the Color Temperature Firmware module.

Since the Color Temperature and Gamma functions are related only to the Luminance behavior of the projector, I would expect theses functions would not be affected at all by changes to the Color Management System firmware.

The answer to these questions will determine if ALL previously calibrated work on the projectors is lost --or if any Gamma and Color Temperature Calibrations that have previously been done will still be effective once the original user settings are put back in.

Your findings and thoughts on this will be appreciated.

KT

Bulldogger

04-28-09, 05:54 PM

This thread is a continuation of the original official RS20/hd750 calibration and CMS thread here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15314888#post15314888.

I have done a first attempt with the new firmware, and the news is mostly good!

- The range for the controls has been extended from -60 to 60 (instead of -30 to 30), which gives enough range to dial the gamut perfectly without touching the general color control. Well done JVC!

- The linearity is good but not perfect. Most colors stay where they should, but green seems to be a bit oversaturated at 75% when calibrating at 100%. Nothing compared to the first firmware, but still not perfect.

- I had onlytime for a quick calibration today, so I'll post more later. I attach my HCFR files for those who want to have a look at the details (EDIT: I used a brand new i1pro to calibrate).

If you want to try my settings (only after upgrading the firmware), here they are:

Contrast=0
Brightness=0
Color=0
Tint=0

Color temp (new lamp, probably not useful for most of you)
Gain R=-24, G=0, B=-54
Offset R=-1 G=-3 B=0

CMS (H,S,B)
Red -4 -23 7
Yellow 22 -44 38
Green -5 -39 44
Cyan -3 -48 39
Blue 37 -8 -4
Magenta -6 0 -3

I tried your settings after updating the firmware. The picture with your numbers input in User 1 is now clearly superior to the THX setting. The THX setting no longer looks good to me compared to your settings. I notice subtle color shades that I had not noticed before. I need to do a full calibration for my projector but this is a very positive.

Manni01

04-28-09, 05:55 PM

As I understand it, you are reporting that all settings are lost.
It is reasonable that all settings will be lost when installing the new firmware, but I did not really ask the right question in my last post. This is what I meant to ask:
Based on your visual observations after installation of the new firmware and after resetting any original settings lost during the installation - are the original Calibrated Color Temp and Gamma performances you saw restored? This should be the case if the CMS firmware is a separate module from that for the Gamma firmware module and the Color Temperature Firmware module.

Since the Color Temperature and Gamma functions are related only to the Luminance behavior of the projector, I would expect theses functions would not be affected at all by changes to the Color Management System firmware.

The answer to these questions will determine if ALL previously calibrated work on the projectors is lost --or if any Gamma and Color Temperature Calibrations that have previously been done will still be effective once the original user settings are put back in.

Your findings and thoughts on this will be appreciated.

KT

I have a possible issue with a new lamp which prevents me from answering this positively, so hopefully someone else will do the test and will report.

In theory, I agree with you, greyscale and gamma shouldn't be affected by the new CMS (although there is no way to know what was exactly changed).

However, as you cannot save the work done on gamma (or it would be more time consuming than redoing it from scratch), the only possible rescue is color temp, and provided you have a meter, it's almost faster to redo it anyway as it will probably have drifted a bit since your last calibration with the lamp aging.

I understand that it is an issue for those who don't calibrate themselves, but otherwise I would recommend to start from scratch.

Frankly - if you've had your PJ professionally calibrated - I don't recommend to do the upgrade if you don't calibrate yourself or are not ready to get it calibrated again. You have more to lose than to win.

Manni01

04-28-09, 06:03 PM

I tried your settings after updating the firmware. The picture with your numbers input in User 1 is now clearly superior to the THX setting. The THX setting no longer looks good to me compared to your settings. I notice subtle color shades that I had not noticed before. I need to do a full calibration for my projector but this is a very positive.

Good news, thanks for the feedback!

Let us know how you're tracking at 75% and 100% when you will have done your calibration.

Manni01

04-28-09, 06:07 PM

Hi Manni - thanks for all the reports/updates. I was rather surprised to read the quote above based on Phil's review a couple weeks back. It seemed from Phil's review he put the CMS through some extensive testing, and I don't recall any such findings from him.

It will be interesting to hear your results when calibrating at 75%. I suspect the opposite may happen (on target at 75%, then somewhat undersaturated at 100%).

Unfortunately I am super busy with work and don't know when I'll get a chance to dig in, because I know it'll be an extensive exercise once I do. :)

It'is great to hear that the clipping issues are history and I look forward to reading more about your and others findings with the 75% vs 100% linearity tracking.

Also - I know you are aware of this and this was a very preliminary calibration just to get a feel for the new firmware, but I'd recommend dialing in your grayscale much flatter sooner than later. It wouldn't affect linearity but will affect the color tracking otherwise.

Hi LovingDVD, we can't wait for you to join the party!

Yes, very quick, basic work on the greyscale for now. I haven't touched gamma apart from a default 2.3. I want to clear this linearity thing. It may be related to my new lamp, I'm doing a few more tests before posting more results.

gregr

04-28-09, 06:47 PM

008

04-28-09, 06:57 PM

Now that the firmware is released, I can finally talk about how well the CMS now works.

My results with the new MCS:

Standard Red Green Blue Yellow Cyan Magenta
Rec.709 75% 0.5 0.8 1.4 0.5 0.7 1.2
Rec.709 100% 1.3 1.9 2.3 2.1 1.5 1.0
Rec.709 50% 0.7 1.1 1.9 1.2 0.9 2.9
SMPTE C 75% 0.5 0.3 1 1.5 0.2 1.5

I calibrated to Rec. 709 with the 75% window patterns from an AccuPel HDG-4000 and then checked linearity with 100% and 50% window patterns. This is excellent performance with negligible perceptible color errors in actual video images. I also did a SMPTE C calibration as shown in the last line of the table, which shows the CMS has adequate range now.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=141100&d=1240958633

Greg, please could you confirm your workflow to get your figures as I have read somewhere that JVC where recommending the secondaries to be adjusted first. Thanks.

mrlittlejeans

04-28-09, 07:33 PM

Those are excellent results Greg. Thanks for sharing them with us.

So how long till we can expect a full review??

Bulldogger

04-28-09, 07:46 PM

gregr

04-28-09, 07:46 PM

Those are excellent results Greg. Thanks for sharing them with us.

So how long till we can expect a full review??It should be on line within a couple of weeks. I figured there was so much interest in the CMS that I've just been waiting until the firmware was publicly released to share those results with everyone. There's still plenty of other good stuff in the review. :)

gregr

04-28-09, 07:53 PM

Greg, please could you confirm your workflow to get your figures as I have read somewhere that JVC where recommending the secondaries to be adjusted first. Thanks.It makes no difference what order the primary and complementary colors are adjusted.

Manni01

04-28-09, 08:01 PM

It makes no difference what order the primary and complementary colors are adjusted.

That was my impression as well. Your results are very encouraging Greg, I'm hoping the slight issue I see with green is related to my lamp which is new. I'm going to put my old lamp back in tomorrow and see if it makes a difference. I've tried everything else (rebooting, using the d2 instead of the i1pro) and I still have this slight oversaturation at 75%, only on green:confused:.

chadly25

04-28-09, 08:13 PM

Greg,

Can you post all of your settings? Thanks!

John Ballentine

04-28-09, 08:31 PM

It should be on line within a couple of weeks. I figured there was so much interest in the CMS that I've just been waiting until the firmware was publicly released to share those results with everyone. There's still plenty of other good stuff in the review. :)
:):):)

nelson4u

04-29-09, 01:57 AM

Manni01

04-29-09, 02:39 AM

Some may feel this is a dumb question, but I am new fairly new to calibration so please keep this in mind.

If I want to calibrate the CMS using the 75% patterns do I still Use the 100% white to start and then use the 75% color patterns, or do I use the 75% white to start and then use the 75% color patterns to calibrate ?

Depends on the requirements of the software you use. If you use HCFR, you use 75% patterns only (including white). If you use Calman, it will ask you for 100% white in the end. The software should tell you what it expects. Also if you use the AVS HD 1.2 calibrating disc, all the patterns are available in the right order for both software. I don't know about other calibrating programs.

nelson4u

04-29-09, 03:38 AM

Thank you Manni. As always you have been extremely helpful.:)

Depends on the requirements of the software you use. If you use HCFR, you use 75% patterns only (including white). If you use Calman, it will ask you for 100% white in the end. The software should tell you what it expects. Also if you use the AVS HD 1.2 calibrating disc, all the patterns are available in the right order for both software. I don't know about other calibrating programs.

Manni01

04-29-09, 04:28 AM

Thank you Manni. As always you have been extremely helpful.:)

You're welcome. I'm just trying to give back a bit of what I learnt from the REAL experts here when I was in your situation a few months ago:).

Let's call it level 1 support. When it needs to be escalated, they step in;).

mhafner

04-29-09, 04:45 AM

How does the new CMS compare to the CMS of the Radiance? Is it better to use the Radiance or the JVC CMS?

Shepardos

04-29-09, 05:18 AM

Color temp (new lamp, probably not useful for most of you)
Gain R=-24, G=0, B=-54
Offset R=-1 G=-3 B=0

@Manni: I wonder why you lower the Red Channel in your greyscale settings? As I understand we should avoid to lower the Red channel because this would also lower the light output?

@All: Is calibration with 75% Colors the recommendad way? Could somebody explain why?:confused:

Thanks
Cheers
Shepardos

Highlander_AVS

04-29-09, 05:37 AM

......
@All: Is calibration in 75% Colors the recommendat way? Could somebody tell why?...

In Theory, if I must choose between a perfect calibration at 75% or 100% stimulus I will prefer to get perfect at 75% ;)
Why ?? Because usually in matherial contents rarely can be found elements that match 100% stimulus ;)

Manni01

04-29-09, 05:38 AM

@Manni: I wonder why you lower the Red Channel in your greyscale settings? As I understand we should avoid to lower the Red channel because this would also lower the light output?

@All: Is calibration with 75% Colors the recommendad way? Could somebody explain why?:confused:

Thanks
Cheers
Shepardos

This is only true if your PJ is red deficient. It's not my case.

Look at your greyscale before doing any correction. The color that's consistantly below the others is the one you shouldn't lower.

deandob

04-29-09, 05:39 AM

How does the new CMS compare to the CMS of the Radiance? Is it better to use the Radiance or the JVC CMS?

With the dE results posted by Greg above, why would anyone bother with an extra video processor like the Radiance? Any improvements to Greg's results would not be visible to the naked eye.

There was a calibrator posting in one of the RS20 threads a couple of months back making a good case for an external processor, but now with the CMS fixed there would be no benefit (in fact possibly detrimental as its another processing link in the video chain).

Greg can you post your settings? These should be reasonably transferable across machines, at least as a starting point for calibration and saving calibration time.

Shepardos

04-29-09, 06:03 AM

@Manni: Thanks - I thought that RED should be unchanged;-) I will look on the grayscale before calibrating again.

BTW: you have a i1 LT and a i1pro. Is there a big difference when you compare this? If yes where I can expect difference?

Lawguy

04-29-09, 07:23 AM

How does the new CMS compare to the CMS of the Radiance? Is it better to use the Radiance or the JVC CMS?

They work much the same way and produce much the same results!

Lawguy

04-29-09, 07:32 AM

Now that the firmware is released, I can finally talk about how well the CMS now works.

My dE (CIELUV 76) results with the new CMS:

Standard Red Green Blue Yellow Cyan Magenta
Rec.709 75% 0.5 0.8 1.4 0.5 0.7 1.2
Rec.709 100% 1.3 1.9 2.3 2.1 1.5 1.0
Rec.709 50% 0.7 1.1 1.9 1.2 0.9 2.9
SMPTE C 75% 0.5 0.3 1 1.5 0.2 1.5

I calibrated to Rec. 709 with the 75% window patterns from an AccuPel HDG-4000 and then checked linearity with 100% and 50% window patterns. This is excellent performance with negligible perceptible color errors in actual video images. I also did a SMPTE C calibration as shown in the last line of the table, which shows the CMS has adequate range now.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=141100&d=1240958633

I told myself that I wouldn't touch the thing until the weekend but I couldn't help myself.

My results were not quite as good as yours, but I only did a very quick calibration. I satisfied myself that (1) the controls work as expected (each control does what you expect it to do) (2) the controls have enough range (you have the ability to correct each color without resort to any trick), and (3) the calibration tracks well at different stimulus levels.

I know that the quality of my calibration is limited by my cheap i1 Display LT, but that is another story.

I am very much looking forward to your WSR review!

Mike_WI

04-29-09, 08:05 AM

With the dE results posted by Greg above, why would anyone bother with an extra video processor like the Radiance? Any improvements to Greg's results would not be visible to the naked eye.

There was a calibrator posting in one of the RS20 threads a couple of months back making a good case for an external processor, but now with the CMS fixed there would be no benefit (in fact possibly detrimental as its another processing link in the video chain).

Greg can you post your settings? These should be reasonably transferable across machines, at least as a starting point for calibration and saving calibration time.
deandob -

1) I think your first question (bolded) is good.

2) I don't know that your second statement (bolded) is proven.
I am not a calibrator or very experienced, but to my naive eye, it doesn't seem like the CMS v1.1 has been proven to be perfect.
We have seen limited data from a few people. I certainly hope it is.
Also, the Lumagen devices may have some benefits besides CMS.

Here is the link to Craig Rounds (craigr, CIR Engineering) review of the JVC RS20 + Lumagen RadianceXE -- link (http://www.cir-engineering.com/rs20.php).
Here is the AVS thread link where craigr posted the link and the commentary running after it -- link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16072253#post16072253).

I look forward to peoples opinions and emerging data on this (especially since I have a RadianceXE and a calibration pending...)

Mike

R Harkness

04-29-09, 08:17 AM

How does the new CMS compare to the CMS of the Radiance? Is it better to use the Radiance or the JVC CMS?

Jim Peterson of Lumagen had these comments. (Not surprisingly :)):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16265929#post16265929

deandob

04-29-09, 08:28 AM

I'll have a go at calibrating it myself tomorrow night or over the weekend with v1.1. I was able to get similar results to Mannie and lovingdvd with my DIY calibration attempts with v1.0 of firmware, and found the colors to be a little too oversaturated with some sources and also strange color effects at times (eg. orange lips).

If I can get the CIE graph looking pretty spot on with <3 dE variation for Rec709 consistent across 75% and 100% stimulus, as well as natural skin tones (where I find color anomolies show up), then I'll be happy in the knowledge that the CMS is sorted and will move onto something else like improving the motion judder. Can we get a firmware fix for that? :p

Highlander_AVS

04-29-09, 08:30 AM

Jim Peterson of Lumagen had these comments. (Not surprisingly :)):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16265929#post16265929
The fact that Radiance used as processor, if needed, has other useful features it's out of doubts ;)

Indeed, and specially after Greg measures report, CMS side you're speculating ! :p

What do you think we need more than what Greg achieved ?? :eek:

Sorry, not agree with Jim, but he wrote this last April 14th when no one known how worked the JVC Fix !! ;) :cool:

mark haflich

04-29-09, 08:54 AM

I don`t get it. a radiance does an awful lot or very little depending on how you use it. To me it is indespensable. One of those features is a very fine CMS for those who have a display device without one. Now the RS20 CMS has been fixed. Something like the Radiance is no longer required to get the RS20 to display colors correctly. Great.

To a RS20 owner, one of the features of the Radiance is no longer needed. That`s the only thing that has changed.

Manni01

04-29-09, 09:01 AM

Lawguy

04-29-09, 09:02 AM

Let's not let this devolve into a discussion about whether the Radiance is a good product (it is, in fact, a great one) and offers more than a CMS.

If the cost/benefit of using one with the RS20 was more in favor of the benefit side of the equation, it would be a no-brainer.

mark haflich

04-29-09, 09:28 AM

Manni01

04-29-09, 10:01 AM

Sounds good to me. The problem with many of these cheap probes is the need to calibrate them to the particular system being calibrated. Its not really a question of which probe of the cheap probes is better. The best results will be obtained using an expensive spectralradiometer for the whole sheebang. This is what the pros use and you just can`t obtain the same degree of acccuracy without one to at least correlate your cheap probe to an accurate reading. There are forums on calibration. But the use of expensive equipment is done for a reason. Cheap stuff can get you close but don1t assume that one cheap probe will give better results. It depens and there are many variables.

Manni. Call up someone with a good spectralradiometer and correlate your two probes. then you will get real close.

Thanks Mark, but from my point of view if an i1pro just out of the factory is not to be trusted, then I'm thinking of giving up calibration altogether!

Here is some data from my latest experiments.

1) As Tom remarked, green was too bright in my first attempt. It looks like this was the reason why there was a lack of linearity in my results. Pushing green too high seems to disturb the linearity.

2) I have calibrated with both the i1 pro and the display2 LT, and although they do not return similar results, they track the same between 75% and 100% as long as green's brightness is within reason. So my apologies for the first results: I repeat it for clarity: there is NO linearity problem with the new CMS. There are minor variations, but they are within what one could expect and are far beyond what I would personally expect from a consumer product.

3) I have taken my new lamp out and put back my old lamp, so the settings below may be better for some PJ.

4) There is a substantial difference between the measures taken by my i1pro and my d2. I attach a few files for those who are willing to look at the details, but would really appreciate if a 750/rs20 user with a meter they trust could try both settings below and tell me which one looks closer to rec709 on their PJ. I have my own opinion as to which one looks more "right", but I would rather not influence anyone:).

I have calibrated with the i1pro in user1/custom1, and with the d2 in user2/custom2. I have set gamma to normal and color temp to the default 6500K in both to make sure I'm not introducing unknown variables to the equation.

Here are the settings (HSB):

user1/i1pro:
R=-4 -21 -2
Y=31 -44 40
G=-7 -42 34
C= -14 -49 40
B=30 0 -10
M=-7 0 -6

User2/d2:
R=-15 -16 -3
Y=7 -48 40
G=-36 -45 34
C= 13 -56 51
B=34 0 -7
M=-16 0 -4

As you can see, a pretty substantial difference!

The biggest being hue for cyan and green.

I have obviously not finetuned either of these calibrations as I need to find out first which meter is "right", if any:(.

Please Do not pay attention to the greyscale info if present in the attached files. I've only worked on the gamut.

Manni01

04-29-09, 10:15 AM

Last screenshots (i1Pro):

Manni01

04-29-09, 10:34 AM

And just for fun, this is how the i1pro measures the d2 calibration:

Googer

04-29-09, 10:42 AM

Ah, I've been keeping an eye out for the new firmware and now I see it's out with very positive impressions. :D I'll be updating my RS20 and recalibrating sometime in the next few days, after which I should be posting my new settings. :)

mark haflich

04-29-09, 10:44 AM

Manni. You are missing the point. No because it is not designerd to do that. It has a certain degree of accuracy Iit can`t be trusted to be accurate over the entire necessary range. A certain points it will introduce significant errors but if you use an appropriate instrument (read expensive) to measure say the primaries accurately, one can offset the cheaper probes inaccuracies and get very very good results. The device is what it is. One doesn`t buy an expensive probe because the cheap probe deteriorates over time. Cheap probes can be recalibrated at the factory. Several are sensitive to varying temperatures and several are hydroscopic. You might get a quick idead by reading Tom Huffman`s calibration posts on the Planar SP-8150 thread

lovingdvd

04-29-09, 10:52 AM

1) As Tom remarked, green was too bright in my first attempt. It looks like this was the reason why there was a lack of linearity in my results. Pushing green too high seems to disturb the linearity.

I must have missed Tom's comments. Can you repost them or provide a link to them? I'd like to see specifically what he was referring to.

3) I have taken my new lamp out and put back my old lamp, so the settings below may be better for some PJ.

So it sounds like you have two variables that have changed simultaneously - the green brightness adjustment you have made AND going back to your old bulb. So can you be sure the green linearity was solved by Tom's recommendation and not the result of going back to the old bulb?

As you can see, a pretty substantial difference! The biggest being hue for cyan and green.

If you have not yet flatted out your grayscale I recommend doing so at this time. It is the #1 reason IMO of any hue errors you are seeing.

Please Do not pay attention to the greyscale info if present in the attached files. I've only worked on the gamut.

Ahh, ok I see you have not yet done the grayscale fully. This is like trying to scoop water out of a boat before plugging the hole. I'm all for obsessing about perfect color as you know, but to do so before getting the grayscale as flat as possible makes that almost impossible and will wind up driving you nuts! :) You don't have to mess with gamma for this, but grayscale, yes.

TomHuffman

04-29-09, 11:02 AM

There is a substantial difference between the measures taken by my i1pro and my d2. I attach a few files for those who are willing to look at the details, but would really appreciate if a 750/rs20 user with a meter they trust could try both settings below and tell me which one looks closer to rec709 on their PJ. I have my own opinion as to which one looks more "right", but I would rather not influence anyone.I would expect the biggest difference to be in green. What I would NOT expect is for the difference to be that large. This is a x0.014, y-0.027 discrepancy, which is huge. With a difference that large, you should be able to determine which is the correct reading with the naked eye.

There is something wrong with at least one of your meters. The problem could be in the D2.

Manni01

04-29-09, 11:15 AM

I must have missed Tom's comments. Can you repost them or provide a link to them? I'd like to see specifically what he was referring to.

So it sounds like you have two variables that have changed simultaneously - the green brightness adjustment you have made AND going back to your old bulb. So can you be sure the green linearity was solved by Tom's recommendation and not the result of going back to the old bulb?

If you have not yet flatted out your grayscale I recommend doing so at this time. It is the #1 reason IMO of any hue errors you are seeing.

Ahh, ok I see you have not yet done the grayscale fully. This is like trying to scoop water out of a boat before plugging the hole. I'm all for obsessing about perfect color as you know, but to do so before getting the grayscale as flat as possible makes that almost impossible and will wind up driving you nuts! :) You don't have to mess with gamma for this, but grayscale, yes.

Re Tom's comment, you are right, he never said this. I have compared the new calibration with the i1pro and the old one, and green brightness was too high in the old one. Hence my deduction.

I went back to the old bulb without changing the settings, and the lack of linearity was still there (so putting the old bulb back didn't solve the problem).
It's only when I realised brightness for green was too high and adjusted it that the linearity problem disappeared.

Regarding the greyscale, I agree with you that this is the procedure that should be followed, but I'm not sure I understand in which way this is relevant here. There is no linearity problem with the new CMS, whether I calibrate to rec709 with the i1pro or the d2, as proved by the last files I've posted.

The only problem I have is I don't know which meter to trust, as they measure very different. But maybe I should take this discussion out of this thread, as it has nothing to do with the new CMS (apart from the fact that it would help me to provide better settings if I knew which meter to trust).

This is illustrated by the fact that the d2 measure the THX gamut as very close to rec709, while the i1pro measures it with green undersaturated.

Are you saying that doing the grescale will put the i1pro and the d2 on line? I don't understand why:confused:.

And which meter should I use to do the greyscale, if I don't find a way to decide which one should be trusted?

If there is no other way, I will follow Mark's suggestion to try to find someone with a reference meter, or maybe try another i1pro. I was sent a second one by mistake, I may open it and see if it measures the same.:D

Manni01

04-29-09, 11:20 AM

I would expect the biggest difference to be in green. What I would NOT expect is for the difference to be that large. This is a x0.014, y-0.027 discrepancy, which is huge. With a difference that large, you should be able to determine which is the correct reading with the naked eye.

There is something wrong with at least one of your meters. The problem could be in the D2.

Thanks Tom, that's also what I think. The problem is that my eyes tell me the i1pro is correct (when do my greyscale with it, it's perfect, when I do it with the d2, it's slightly reddish). Unfortunately, the i1pro measures THX with a substantial green deficiency, while the d2 measures it bang on rec709. This is what throws me. I think we all agree that THX is rather close from a gamut POV, so I can't explain why the i1pro sees it so wrong.

lovingdvd

04-29-09, 11:21 AM

Regarding the greyscale, I agree with you that this is the procedure that should be followed, but I'm not sure I understand in which way this is relevant here. There is no linearity problem with the new CMS, whether I calibrate to rec709 with the i1pro or the d2, as proved by the last files I've posted.

I'll defer to Tom and others for the formal explanation, but the bottom line is that if your grayscale is not flat, your colors will not be right, period (particularly hue).

Are you saying that doing the grescale will put the i1pro and the d2 on line? I don't understand why:confused:.

No this has nothing to do with your meters but rather - a flat grayscale is mandatory for proper colors.

As for your differences in meters, that is odd. I highly recommend the combo of meters I use which is a Spyder 2 probe trained to an EyeOne Pro, and then taking measurements right out of the pj lens. Its been a winning combination for me for years.

CIR-Engineering

04-29-09, 11:27 AM

The fact that Radiance used as processor, if needed, has other useful features it's out of doubts ;)

Indeed, and specially after Greg measures report, CMS side you're speculating ! :p

What do you think we need more than what Greg achieved ?? :eek:

Sorry, not agree with Jim, but he wrote this last April 14th when no one known how worked the JVC Fix !! ;) :cool:
Firstly... please stop calling me Greg. My name is Craig Rounds.

craigr

CIR-Engineering

04-29-09, 11:30 AM

deandob -

1) I think your first question (bolded) is good.

2) I don't know that your second statement (bolded) is proven.
I am not a calibrator or very experienced, but to my naive eye, it doesn't seem like the CMS v1.1 has been proven to be perfect.
We have seen limited data from a few people. I certainly hope it is.
Also, the Lumagen devices may have some benefits besides CMS.

Here is the link to Craig Rounds (craigr, CIR Engineering) review of the JVC RS20 + Lumagen RadianceXE -- link (http://www.cir-engineering.com/rs20.php).
Here is the AVS thread link where craigr posted the link and the commentary running after it -- link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16072253#post16072253).

I look forward to peoples opinions and emerging data on this (especially since I have a RadianceXE and a calibration pending...)

Mike

Secondly, I will be calibrating Mike_WI 's RS20 on the 16th. I will collect and post data for the new firmware CMS on the RS20. I use a PR650 so my numbers will be accurate. Mike has already purchased an Lumagen Radiance XE from me and we will be installing that and using it with the RS20.

What I expect to do in terms of the CMS is first test the new RS20 alone. If the results are good I will not use the CMS in the Radiance XE. If the RS20 still tracks in a non-linear way with respect to xyY I will most likely disable the CMS and just use the Radiance CMS again. The RS20 performed pretty well with the CMS in the Radiance before and I doubt that will change with the new FW.

craigr

Manni01

04-29-09, 11:31 AM

I'll defer to Tom and others for the formal explanation, but the bottom line is that if your grayscale is not flat, your colors will not be right, period (particularly hue).

No this has nothing to do with your meters but rather - a flat grayscale is mandatory for proper colors.

As for your differences in meters, that is odd. I highly recommend the combo of meters I use which is a Spyder 2 probe trained to an EyeOne Pro, and then taking measurements right out of the pj lens. Its been a winning combination for me for years.

Thanks LovingDVD, but the difference in meters is the only thing we are still discussing. I have used the d2 trained with the i1pro, and it's provided a more more precise and repeatable way to do work on the greyscale. It's just that calibrating after installing the new firmware threw that question about green variation and I'd like to get to the bottom of it.

I'm going to open a new thread if I don't find a way to solve this as this is distracting regarding the new CMS, which performs flawlessly as far as I can see.

I don't want my meter problems to take anything away from JVC's extraordinary achievement.

This new firmware rocks (and at least one of my meters suck$).

CIR-Engineering

04-29-09, 11:32 AM

Thirdly, I am sorry that I have not been around more after writing my original white paper on the RS20 and RS20 + Radiance combo. I have been swamped with actual calibration work and have not had time to post to the forums much this year. I am glad to have lots of work :) but sad that I don't have time to participate in discussions :(

craigr

Manni01

04-29-09, 11:32 AM

Secondly, I will be calibrating Mike_WI 's RS20 on the 16th. I will collect and post data for the new firmware CMS on the RS20. I use a PR650 so my numbers will be accurate. Mike has already purchased an Lumagen Radiance XE from me and we will be installing that and using it with the RS20.

What I expect to do in terms of the CMS is first test the new RS20 alone. If the results are good I will not use the CMS in the Radiance XE. If the RS20 still tracks in a non-linear way with respect to xyY I will most likely disable the CMS and just use the Radiance CMS again. The RS20 performed pretty well with the CMS in the Radiance before and I doubt that will change with the new FW.

craigr

Craig, the new CMS tracks in a perfectly linear way. I am sorry my meter problems raised a question about this, but as far as I can see, there is NO linearity issue with the new CMS. Full stop.

CIR-Engineering

04-29-09, 11:34 AM

Thanks LovingDVD, but the difference in meters is the only thing we are still discussing. I have used the d2 trained with the i1pro, and it's provided a more more precise and repeatable way to do work on the greyscale. It's just that calibrating after installing the new firmware threw that question about green variation and I'd like to get to the bottom of it.

I'm going to open a new thread if I don't find a way to solve this as this is distracting regarding the new CMS, which performs flawlessly as far as I can see.

I don't want my meter problems to take anything away from JVC's extraordinary achievement.

This new firmware rocks (and at least one of my meters suck$).
A lot of meters can measure gray scale well, but many of the same meters struggle with primary and secondary colors. As you have observed, green is usually the most inconsistent across different meters. The only meter I trust for green is my PR650. I also have an EyeOne Beamer and it measures green totally different than the PR650... and I consider the EyeOne to be one of the most accurate inexpensive meters.

craigr

CIR-Engineering

04-29-09, 11:35 AM

Craig, the new CMS tracks in a perfectly linear way. I am sorry my meter problems raised a question about this, but as far as I can see, there is NO linearity issue with the new CMS. Full stop.
SWEET :) I can't wait to see it!!!

craigr

lovingdvd

04-29-09, 11:35 AM

Thanks LovingDVD, but the difference in meters is the only thing we are still discussing.

As posted above my comment about fixing your grayscale was specifically directed at your comment "As you can see, a pretty substantial difference! The biggest being hue for cyan and green."

Manni01

04-29-09, 11:42 AM

As posted above my comment about fixing your grayscale was specifically directed at your comment "As you can see, a pretty substantial difference! The biggest being hue for cyan and green."

Yes, but how do you want me to do the greyscale if I don't know which meter to use?

I could do two greyscales, one with each meter, they would both measure perfectly with each meter.

But they would both be different.

So which one should I use to work on the gamut?

This is why I reverted to the 6500K setting, just to take greyscale out of the equation.

As I said, my eyes tell me the i1pro is more "right" than the d2. If it was showing the THX gamut on rec709, we wouldn't even be discussing this. What I find puzzling is the fact that it's the opposite, the D2 shows THX on rec 709, and the i1pro shows it substantially undersaturated.

lovingdvd

04-29-09, 11:49 AM

Yes, but how do you want me to do the greyscale if I don't know which meter to use?

I could do two greyscales, one with each meter, they would both measure perfectly with each meter.

But they would both be different.

So which one should I use to work on the gamut?

This is why I reverted to the 6500K setting, just to take greyscale out of the equation.

As I said, my eyes tell me the i1pro is more "right" than the d2. If it was showing the THX gamut on rec709, we wouldn't even be discussing this. What I find puzzling is the fact that it's the opposite, the D2 shows THX on rec 709, and the i1pro shows it substantially undersaturated.

Good point, I see your dilemma. Which meter did you do all your original CMS work on (pre-firmware fix)? Did you suspect any issues with meter accuracy back then?

008

04-29-09, 11:51 AM

Okay, I have done more tests and I am happy to report that if I calibrate with my cheap Display2, the tracking in linearity at 100% and 75% is excellent, including on green. I now have some doubts again about my i1 pro, as the display2 measures THX the way we know it is (pretty accurate from a gamut point of view) while the i1 pro repots some undersaturation in green.

I am doing a calibration with the i1 pro now (I put my old lamp back to take the new lamp out of the equation), and I will post detailed data from both calibrations then. Hopefully this will help someone with a 750/rs-20 and a reliable meter to tell me which one I should trust...

Hi Manni. With a brand new Pro I measured undersaturation of all colours but significantly green with the standard THX preset which sounds consistent with what you are seeing. I know what you are saying though as I have also read conflicting reports of others measuring the THX preset being spot. To me this also raised the question of accuracy of my own Pro.

I think it unlikely that both our Pro's are 'off'. I guess we either need to send them back to be tested or get the measurements validated by someone with another probe taking simultaneous readings.

By eye the THX preset looks undersaturated to me but when calibrating to spot on Rec 709 with my Radiance skin tones look mildly oversaturated.

Manni01

04-29-09, 11:57 AM

Hi Manni. With a brand new Pro I measured undersaturation of all colours but significantly green with the standard THX preset which sounds consistent with what you are seeing. I know what you are saying though as I have also read conflicting reports of others measuring the THX preset being spot. To me this also raised the question of accuracy of my own Pro.

I think it unlikely that both our Pro's are 'off'. I guess we either need to send them back to be tested or get the measurements validated by someone with another probe taking simultaneous readings.

By eye the THX preset looks undersaturated to me but when calibrating to spot on Rec 709 with my Radiance skin tones look mildly oversaturated.

Thanks 008, this is good to hear.

To me, the i1pro does look more right than the d2, especially when looking at a greyscale done by each separately (steps of grey with the i1pro, slight red tint with the d2).

I'm going to assume the i1pro is more right, that THX is off (as I also felt THX was undersaturated), work on the greyscale like I used to with the D2 trained on the i1Pro, and I'll report with a final calibration.

Hopefully this will put the matter to rest!

stereomandan

04-29-09, 12:08 PM

I'll do this when I try calibrating at 75% and will post results in the HCFR files.

Any chance to run the saturation windows? Your calibration looks fantastic so far at 100% saturation (and 100% or 75% stimulus), but am wondering about how well the RS-20 reproduces the inner part of the color gamut. Thanks.

Dan

mrlittlejeans

04-29-09, 12:47 PM

Firstly... please stop calling me Greg. My name is Craig Rounds.

craigr

I would bet that he was referring to Greg Rogers and the excellent results he achieved with the JVC CMS alone earlier in the thread. Greg posted his measured results and has shown that the CMS does track linearly and appears to work as promised.

Highlander_AVS

04-29-09, 12:59 PM

Firstly... please stop calling me Greg. My name is Craig Rounds.

craigr

Sorry, but, First I was not refering at You ! :D
I was talking about Greg Rogers and his measures posted here: :cool:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16360087&postcount=65

Highlander_AVS

04-29-09, 01:18 PM

I would bet that he was referring to Greg Rogers and the excellent results he achieved with the JVC CMS alone earlier in the thread. Greg posted his measured results and has shown that the CMS does track linearly and appears to work as promised.

;) Shure ! ;)
Thanks ;)

GlenC

04-29-09, 01:40 PM

Yes, but how do you want me to do the greyscale if I don't know which meter to use?

I could do two greyscales, one with each meter, they would both measure perfectly with each meter.

But they would both be different.

So which one should I use to work on the gamut?

This is why I reverted to the 6500K setting, just to take greyscale out of the equation.

As I said, my eyes tell me the i1pro is more "right" than the d2. If it was showing the THX gamut on rec709, we wouldn't even be discussing this. What I find puzzling is the fact that it's the opposite, the D2 shows THX on rec 709, and the i1pro shows it substantially undersaturated.As Craig and others mentioned before, many of the non-expensive meters can measure gray scale with some accuracy but really go off when trying to measure primaries. If you are getting two different grayscales, you need to find out which is more correct and stop using the other......

Manni01

04-29-09, 02:04 PM

First of all, thanks for all the help regarding my meters dilemma.

I have solved it by opening a second i1pro that has been sent to me by mistake and that hasn't been collected after 3 weeks and many emails.

It returns exactly the same values as the one I have.

As my eyes also tell me that the i1pro is right, and as the greyscale it returns is superior (ie more neutral) to the greyscale returned by the d2, which is slightly on the warm side, I have decided to put the matter to rest and declare the i1pro the reference and the d2 the off one, which is logical.

The consequence is that THX, at least on my PJ, is seriously undersaturated, but that also tallies as you all know, with my experience of THX (again, on my PJ).

I have put my new lamp back in to clarify that this was not an issue either, so this calibration is done in exactly the same condition as my first attempt (new lamp, i1pro). The main thing that's gone is the human error (too much brightess on green, which induced the slight lack of linearity in my first attempt).

So I have redone a greyscale (just color temp, no work on gamma yet, apart from selecting a 2.3 custom default) using the i1pro. I reckon the greyscale is now flat enough for not being an issue (I made sure I was as close as possible to D65 at 100 IRE).

I have then recalibrated the gamut at 75%, as I realised that it needed much less correction at this level of stimulus to get an almost perfect gamut, and the gamut at 100% is just as good.

I have also run the saturation measures for Stereodaman to dissect:).

The conclusion is that the new firmware gets a clean bill of health:D.

It's as linear as one can wish (I don't think anyone has reported a consumer product with such a good linearity).

And it's as straightforward to use as one could wish, as it is now working as intended. There is very little interaction between the controls, which are now reasonably separate.

Based on my experience, I would just warn about pushing brightness too high, which I did by mistake in my first attempt and which generated the initial slight lack of linearity on green, and to calibrate at 75% rather than 100% as the results are at least as good, with less correction applied which I assume is better.

Here are my settings for those who are not entirely put off by the meter dilemna:

Custom color temp (new lamp)
Gain R = -30
Gain G = 0
Gain B=-58
Offset R=0
Offset G=-4
Offset B=0

CMS (HSB)
R= -4 -22 3
Y=6 -46 37
G=-11 -43 31
C=-3 -51 39
B=30 0 -7
M=1 0 -5

I wish I had posted this as my first attempt, and hope you'll forgive me for the confusion, but hopefully this sets the record straight:o.

Note: the greyscale and saturation data is in the 3rd attempt HCFR file, as this was my main calibration. The 100% just shows what you get at 100% stimulus, and only the gamut info is relevant in this file.

Manni01

04-29-09, 02:06 PM

Here are the results at 100% stimulus

TomHuffman

04-29-09, 02:07 PM

JeffY

04-29-09, 02:16 PM

Manni, Did the change in lamp affect the CMS much?

TomHuffman

04-29-09, 02:16 PM

As Craig and others mentioned before, many of the non-expensive meters can measure gray scale with some accuracy but really go off when trying to measure primaries.This one of these calibration myths that just refuses to die.

Try the following: measure white and red with a reference spectro and then measure white and red with a decent low-cost colorimeter--the Chroma 5 or even D2. I'll bet that you'll find that the colorimeter's reading of red is MORE accurate than its reading of white.

Colorimeters do have a problem with green and sometimes yellow and/or cyan, but in my experience they generally do better with red, magenta and blue than they do with white. On average they are no more or less accurate with color than they are with white.

Manni01

04-29-09, 02:19 PM

Manni, Did the change in lamp affect the CMS much?

No, not massively. It had more impact on the greyscale.

lovingdvd

04-29-09, 02:23 PM

Based on my experience, I would just warn about pushing brightness too high, which I did by mistake in my first attempt and which generated the initial slight lack of linearity on green, and to calibrate at 75% rather than 100% as the results are at least as good, with less correction applied which I assume is better.

In what circumstances do you think someone may accidentially drive green brightness too high? I ask because you also mentioned that the controls are now very responsive and do what you'd expect them to do - so I'm trying to understand what conditions would cause someone to drive green too much. Unless it is just the case of a bad/inaccurate meter - which if I am following along you are basically saying that if your meter isn't right then you could wind up driving green too much?

I just might have to re-prioritize some work so I can get some play time in! :D

Manni01

04-29-09, 02:30 PM

In what circumstances do you think someone may accidentially drive green brightness too high? I ask because you also mentioned that the controls are now very responsive and do what you'd expect them to do - so I'm trying to understand what conditions would cause someone to drive green too much. Unless it is just the case of a bad/inaccurate meter - which if I am following along you are basically saying that if your meter isn't right then you could wind up driving green too much?

I just might have to re-prioritize some work so I can get some play time in! :D

I did yesterday's calibration very quickly, and I simply made a human error when setting green's brightness. The controls have always worked as intended, it's just that yesterday, I found a lack of linearity in my first attempt and instead of questionning my abilities, and double check my calibration or redo it, I questioned the new firmware.

Bad mistake, lesson learnt.

But by all means, come and save the world!:D

As I said, we can't wait for you to join the party...

Manni01

04-29-09, 02:38 PM

In what circumstances do you think someone may accidentially drive green brightness too high? I ask because you also mentioned that the controls are now very responsive and do what you'd expect them to do - so I'm trying to understand what conditions would cause someone to drive green too much. Unless it is just the case of a bad/inaccurate meter - which if I am following along you are basically saying that if your meter isn't right then you could wind up driving green too much?

I just might have to re-prioritize some work so I can get some play time in! :D

Oh and just one more thing, I don't know how you calibrate, but I use HCFR along with Stereodaman's excellent excel spreadsheet to calculate my brightness target for each color, based on the Y value for white at 100% (if there is a way to get this automatically from HCFR, I haven't found it and it would be a #1 request for the feature list for the next version).

Although the spreadsheet is great, navigating between Excel and HCFR may have induced the error, as it is a manual process (involving me!).

If you look at brightness for green, it says 44 in my attempt one, versus 31 in my last attempt.

If I have a bit of time later, I will put it back to 44, and check if my linearity issue is back.

JeffY

04-29-09, 02:43 PM

No, not massively. It had more impact on the greyscale.

Thanks, that is what I expected.

lovingdvd

04-29-09, 03:01 PM

Oh and just one more thing, I don't know how you calibrate, but I use HCFR along with Stereodaman's excellent excel spreadsheet to calculate my brightness target for each color, based on the Y value for white at 100% (if there is a way to get this automatically from HCFR, I haven't found it and it would be a #1 request for the feature list for the next version).

Yea it would be nice if HCFR would show this. IIRC its something I requested to their developers a while back.

I use Greg's excellent free app (can't find a link to it tho). Essentially you put in your #s for white and based on the gamut you select such as Rec 709 (or a custom gamut) it shows you the target x y and Y for RGBCMY.

Manni01

04-29-09, 03:03 PM

Yea it would be nice if HCFR would show this. IIRC its something I requested to their developers a while back.

I use Greg's excellent free app (can't find a link to it tho). Essentially you put in your #s for white and based on the gamut you select such as Rec 709 (or a custom gamut) it shows you the target x y and Y for RGBCMY.

Yes, this is what Strereodaman's spreadsheet does, but it also gives you targets for gamma, saturations, prim/sec at 75% or 100% stim etc...

Here is the link http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15607437#post15607437.

Shepardos

04-29-09, 03:42 PM

Manni01

04-29-09, 03:55 PM

@Manni:I have try your CMS setting and attached you can find the result. Either the difference comes from the meter (i1 LT) or/and the PJ.

It would be great if other user try and measure different CMS settings and post the results. This would help us to find out if we could exchange the CMS settings and where we can expect the difference. From my measurement the Y is the biggest problem.

Thanks very much for this, but I can only see some of the information on the screenshot (only y and Y). Indeed Y seems much lower for all the colors on your PJ/with your meter. I have no idea why. I can't see the x info on your screenshot, where is green on your gamut with my settings? On rec709, or outside the gamut? Does it look right or oversaturated? And visually, how do my settings look on your PJ?

Manni01

04-29-09, 05:05 PM

I have done some first critical viewing with my latest settings, the usual suspects (Wall-E, Cars, Dark Knight, Tropic Thunder).

The only thing I can say is that I have never seen the PJ looking that good.

The i1pro definitely looks like the right reference to use. There is no clipping, an amazing depth to the picture, I checked green in Tropic Thunder and it's definitely not oversaturated, the skin tones in Dark Knight are perfect, the whites are white...

It feels like there was a veil in front of the lens and it's been taken away!

Hope you'll experience the same, but personally, I couldn't be happier:).

Hats off to JVC for the upgrade, it performs flawlessly as far as my eyes can see.

RickS

04-29-09, 06:37 PM

Manni,

Thanks alot!!! Just ordered a i1pro, software, and a signal generator.......can't wait to start the learning curve. :eek::)

Manni01

04-29-09, 06:46 PM

Manni01

04-29-09, 06:49 PM

Manni,

Thanks alot!!! Just ordered a i1pro, software, and a signal generator.......can't wait to start the learning curve. :eek::)

Great, let us know how your i1pro read THX, both 008 and myself would be interested to find out:p

thrang

04-29-09, 11:20 PM

In case there are any Mac users out there, I updated my HD750 with no problems from a MacBook Pro, running Boot Camp/Windows XP. Worked perfectly....

Alan Gouger

04-29-09, 11:51 PM

In case there are any Mac users out there, I updated my HD750 with no problems from a MacBook Pro, running Boot Camp/Windows XP. Worked perfectly....

Thanks for this. Im running a MacBook pro with Parallel/XP and will upgrade tomorrow evening.

CraigN

04-30-09, 01:51 AM

Thanks for this. Im running a MacBook pro with Parallel/XP and will upgrade tomorrow evening.
FYI
I tried with a MacBookPro running Parallels/Vista (64 bit) and no go! Had to move my vista desktop in the HT to get it done.

Manni01

04-30-09, 03:22 AM

FYI
I tried with a MacBookPro running Parallels/Vista (64 bit) and no go! Had to move my vista desktop in the HT to get it done.

This is probably because of Vista 64bits (the driver is for XP/vista 32).
As it seems to be running with boot camp, parallel with XP/Vista32 should work. This is good news for Millerwill...:D

karrih

04-30-09, 04:15 AM

@Manni:I have try your CMS setting and attached you can find the result. Either the difference comes from the meter (i1 LT) or/and the PJ.

It would be great if other user try and measure different CMS settings and post the results. This would help us to find out if we could exchange the CMS settings and where we can expect the difference. From my measurement the Y is the biggest problem.

I did try Mannis settings as well. Unfortunatetly I didn't save my D2 measurements, but dE was about 4 across and gamut triangle seemed to be shifted to right and below at all primaries. I get similar displacement in THX mode only for green primary. Anyway, I did use it yesterday evening and did not notice any problems. I will need to take a closer look to see if I would prefer it over the tweaked THX mode as it is now, but it could well be. Anyway it could be good starting point if I were to calibrate according to my measurements, so, thanks Manni.

Manni01

04-30-09, 05:04 AM

I did try Mannis settings as well. Unfortunatetly I didn't save my D2 measurements, but dE was about 4 across and gamut triangle seemed to be shifted to right and below at all primaries. I get similar displacement in THX mode only for green primary. Anyway, I did use it yesterday evening and did not notice any problems. I will need to take a closer look to see if I would prefer it over the tweaked THX mode as it is now, but it could well be. Anyway it could be good starting point if I were to calibrate according to my measurements, so, thanks Manni.

Thanks for the feedback Karrih. I guess the way it looks is more important than the way it measures, unless you can use a i1pro or better. There is too much uncertainty with uncertified tristim (they can be really good or a bit off and there is no way to know).

KTTV Images

04-30-09, 06:23 AM

Manni. I finished installation of the new firmware late this evening and put in your settings into Custom1. Since I have no metering capability all I can do is to observe the images.

What I found is very interesting indeed:
First, the color of everything I have looked at tonight (many selected Film and TV HD segments used since about January 20th) for the first time are very close to those when using the THX mode. The key difference is similar to what you are reporting.....THX looks slightly less saturated.
There is a pronounced improvement in the behavior of green...gone is the excessive intensity of green colors.
The reds of blood, coke signs and the British telephone booths are much closer to reality.

Second--and I don't think much has been reported about this area... The color decoders are now almost perfect....for the first time. I test the Color decoders with the DVE disk (Color Bars) and the colored supplied filters as outlined by Joe Kane. None of the various "make do" settings we used in the past did well when you looked at the color decoder performance. Now the improvement is very clear and striking.
I would suggest this may be the easiest test to see if the settings you and others may find with instrumentation calibration can really be usefully applied across a wider set of projectors by others on these threads-- with reasonably good results.

Hats off to JVC.
And Manni--a special thanks for your settings.
If my findings are repeated by others..for those of us who currently have no metering capability .. here is a way to bring the color performance of the RS20 way up from we were -- just 1 week ago.

EDIT: 1. I used your third attempt settings. 2. Using filters and DVE I had to make small adjustments to the main Color and Tint controls for both your settings and THX to bring the color decoders into line as I described above.

KT

Manni01

04-30-09, 06:27 AM

Manni. I finished installation of the new firmware late this evening and put in your settings. Since I have no metering capability all I can do is to observe the images.

What I found is very interesting indeed:
First, the color of everything I have looked at tonight (many selected Film and TV HD segments used since about January 20th) for the first time are very close to those when using the THX mode. The key difference is similar to what you are reporting.....THX looks slightly less saturated.
There is a pronounced improvement in the behavior of green...gone is the excessive intensity of green colors.
The reds of blood, coke signs and the British telephone booths are much closer to reality.

Second--and I don't think much has been reported about this area... The color decoders are now almost perfect....for the first time. I test the Color decoders with the DVE disk (Color Bars) and the colored supplied filters as outlined by Joe Kane. None of the various "make do" settings we used in the past did well when you looked at the color decoder performance. Now the improvement is very clear and striking.
I would suggest this may be the easiest test to see if the settings you and others may find with instrumentation calibration can really be usefully applied across a wider set of projectors by others on these threads-- with reasonably good results.

Hats off to JVC.
And Manni--a special thanks for your settings.
If my findings are repeated by others..for those of us who currently have no metering capability .. here is a way to bring the color performance of the RS20 way up from we were -- just 1 week ago.

KT

Hi KT,

Thanks for the detailed feedback, and glad to hear my settings worked that well for you. I know they work for me, and it's good to know I'm not entirely color blind:D.

deandob

04-30-09, 06:29 AM

Oh and just one more thing, I don't know how you calibrate, but I use HCFR along with Stereodaman's excellent excel spreadsheet to calculate my brightness target for each color, based on the Y value for white at 100% (if there is a way to get this automatically from HCFR, I haven't found it and it would be a #1 request for the feature list for the next version).

I'm still relatively new to calibration although I am able to understand and run HCFR. I'm confused by this post, HCFR seems pretty comprehensive to me, why is this extra work necessary? I use HCFR to adjust the colors to fit the CIE curve and that works for me. I have read the thread and looked at the spreadsheet and it seems like Stereomandan is replicating HCFR in Excel.

I'm obviously missing something here. Can someone explain what improvement to the calibration process the spreadsheet gives over HCFR?

Manni01

04-30-09, 06:34 AM

I'm still relatively new to calibration although I am able to understand and run HCFR. I'm confused by this post, HCFR seems pretty comprehensive to me, why is this extra work necessary? I use HCFR to adjust the colors to fit the CIE curve and that works for me. I have read the thread and looked at the spreadsheet and it seems like Stereomandan is replicating HCFR in Excel.

I'm obviously missing something here. Can someone explain what improvement to the calibration process the spreadsheet gives over HCFR?

This is because you are doing what I did when I started, ie look at x,y only and forget to adjust Y (brightness). HCFR shows you how close you are re x,y, but it only gives you a numerical value for Y. If you don't know which target value to use for Y for each color (a percentage or the Y value for white), you end up with a pretty looking CIE chart but the calibration is wrong because brightness (Y) for each color has not been adjusted.
This is what Dan's document gives you: you enter your Y value for white (measured by HCFR after a first run of the primaries/secondaries), and it tells you which target to aim for for the Y of each color. You can then go back to HCFR and adjust the brightness setting for each color until the Y indicated by HCFR reaches the Y calculated by the speadsheet.
You should read Tom's excellent guide here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=852536, as CMS work is not really covered in the Dummies guide, and this is why we all fall in the trap;)
It would be great if HCFR gave a visual clue indicating how far we are from the Y target for each color (which Calman does in some of its layouts), as it would be more straightforward than going to and from the spreadsheet (or Greg's free calculator).

Edit: just found the link to Greg's calculator thread here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1005676
Fantastic thread, with more info than you need to understand it all...

Lawguy

04-30-09, 07:36 AM

deandob

04-30-09, 07:37 AM

Thanks Manny.

I thought I had the calibration approach licked but I have to go back to school now. Its a bit frustrating as this extra step was not explained in the dummies guide which is what I used to learn.

I think I understand - HCFR gives you the xy colour gamut accuracy but not what the brightness (Y) should be for the color based on the stimulus used (eg. 75%) & adjusted for relative screen brightness. So I assume you adjust the relevant colour brightness control in the CMS to hit the target Y (based on white brightness) when adjusting hue & saturation for each colour?? This seems like an obvious gap in HCFR, but it is free after all!

Is an Eye-One D2 probe good enough to measure white brightness? I have a large screen with the iris almost fully open (high brightness) and the D2 reads about 6-8 fL in HCFR which I thought is a bit too low for a new bulb, yet the image seems bright enough.

Should be pretty easy to add this extra step when calibrating with HCFR. What about the other sheets in this spreadsheet, the gamut, dE & saturation charts? Are these any better than HCFR?

So now along with a more stable lamp (140 hours), a better CMS, including the 'Y' calibration that I missed out when calibrating previously should mean I will get a good improvement post calibration this time around!

Manni01

04-30-09, 07:45 AM

This may be more meter-related than CMS related but is relevant to those who just want to plug in numbers and be done with it.

I entered both of Manni's calibration settings, the D2 and Pro. I measured his settings on my RS20 with my i1LT. Neither was usuable for me but this is what I found.

Manni's Pro figures were extremely close in xy (each color was slightly outside the triangle) but Y was FAR to low across the board. This was very visible in the colors themselves, which looked too drab. dEs were in the 20s.

Manni's D2 figures were not consistent for me. They were, in fact, helter skelter. Some colors were pretty good (dEs of under 10) but others were in the 30s and 40s.

Conclusion? I would like to believe that my i1LT is accurate as compared to Manni's Pro and that Manni's D2 has perhaps seen better days. This seems possible because his Pro settings showed very close xys when measured by my LT. Ys were terribly off but I suspect this may be just lamp to lamp and projector to projector variation. My lamp has over 800 hours on it now and that may account for my very low Ys. Based on this small experiment, I would not recommend just plugging in someone else's CMS numbers. It is just a crap shoot and it is likely that you will be doing more harm than good.

EDIT: I also measured THX mode yesterday and it still looks pretty good. dEs all under 8. I still say that if you don't have a meter or the time or the skills, THX mode is the way to go.

Side note: I don't know if it the new CMS or perhaps my lamp has just settled in but, it took me all of 5 minutes to get a flat grayscale with dEs of 3 or less yesterday.

Thanks very much for trying this, I'm relieved that my i1pro settings didn't return a widely oversaturated green.

It is very wierd that the D2 settings were all over the place, as on my PJ the only visible variation between the two on the CIE (I didn't check brightness) was mostly on green, and consequently on cyan and yellow.

I do agree with you that "borrowed" settings will never replace a proper calibration, but if it allows you to get a better than THX preset while you wait for it to be done, why not use it?

It's also very interesting to see that it's mostly brightness that doesn't translate well.

Re the i1pro, did you try my 3rd attempt setting, or the one I gave with the d2 one (second attempt?).

Manni01

04-30-09, 07:49 AM

Lawguy

04-30-09, 07:58 AM

It is very wierd that the D2 settings were all over the place, as on my PJ the only visible variation between the two on the CIE (I didn't check brightness) was mostly on green, and consequently on cyan and yellow.

I was trying to convey that the dEs were helter skelter. Some were reasonably good while other were not. Green's xy was clearly off and outside the triangle. The others' xys were not off as much. Ys were generally bad, of course.

I used your third attempt settings.

I am thinking that my LT reads slightly undersaturated (because of how it compares to your Pro). Perhaps I will try to emulate a triangle that looks like what I got with your Pro settings. Maybe I'll just use your pro settings and fix the Ys. Then again, maybe I'll just buy a Pro.

Manni01

04-30-09, 08:04 AM

I was trying to convey that the dEs were helter skelter. Some were reasonably good while other were not. Green's xy was clearly off and outside the triangle. The others' xys were not off as much. Ys were generally bad, of course.

I used your third attempt settings.

I am thinking that my LT reads slightly undersaturated (because of how it compares to your Pro). Perhaps I will try to emulate a triangle that looks like what I got with your Pro settings. Maybe I'll just use your pro settings and fix the Ys. Then again, maybe I'll just buy a Pro.

Thanks, this validates my conclusion that the i1pro was the most accurate one (glad I can still trust my eyes!).

It's not really possible though to compare the i1pro settings from the 3rd attempt and the d2 settings from the second attempt, as I calibrated at 100% the second time and at 75% the third time.

This makes me think that the difference in Y may come from this. Did you use 100% patterns or 75% patterns to read?

I decided to priviledge 75%, as it required much less action on the controls to get it perfect at 75%, but it may have a big impact at 100%, especially re Y.

Visually, my calibration at 75% was much better than my calibration at 100% (even with animation) so I kept the 75%.

Lawguy

04-30-09, 08:10 AM

This makes me think that the difference in Y may come from this. Did you use 100% patterns or 75% patterns to read?

I am pretty sure that I used 75% patterns.

JeffY

04-30-09, 08:20 AM

Manni, I'm finding your colours too dark, are you calibrating with the gamma set to normal/2.2 or are you using a higher gamma?

Manni01

04-30-09, 08:21 AM

Manni, I'm finding your colours too dark, are you calibrating with the gamma set to normal or are you using a higher gamma?

I set gamma to 2.3 in the custom1 mode.

Lawguy

04-30-09, 08:23 AM

Manni, I'm finding your colours too dark, are you calibrating with the gamma set to normal/2.2 or are you using a higher gamma?

As far as I can tell, gamma and CMS settings don't interact and changing gamma doesn't affect the colors.

JeffY

04-30-09, 08:27 AM

I was thinking the the brightness of the reference white point would change.

Lawguy

04-30-09, 08:29 AM

I was thinking the the brightness of the reference white point would change.

Gottcha.

Manni01

04-30-09, 08:32 AM

I was thinking the the brightness of the reference white point would change.

Apart from the brightness (which seems to be a common issue), how are the primaries/secondaries from my 3rd attempt?

Also are you measuring with 75% or 100% patterns?

JeffY

04-30-09, 08:42 AM

Manni01

04-30-09, 08:50 AM

I havn't started to measure yet (I don't trust my Sypder 3 anyway), I'm using colour filters to check for brightness. The only other issue is with hues, if you look at the colour ramps, hue changes appear to be amplified with darker colours. For example your blues start to go a bit purple the darker the blue. I've cut your hue changes in half and it looks much better to me.

This is why calibrating at 75% gave much better results (visually) than calibrating at 100%. I needed huge hue changes to get to rec709 at 100%.

Blue is still the tricky color on this projector though, and I'm sure there must be some progress to be made in this area.

I'm waiting to get my new screen material next week to give it another go.

Hopefully by then we'll have more feedback.

Lawguy

04-30-09, 09:07 AM

This is why calibrating at 75% gave much better results (visually) than calibrating at 100%.

I am puzzled by this statement. If tracking is now good, it should not matter what stimulus level you calibrate at. For example, if you properly calibrate at 100%, things will look perfect at that stimulus level. Also, if results track properly, that 100% stimulus calibration should track properly at 75%. Are you suggesting that tracking is good only if you calibrate at 75%?

lovingdvd

04-30-09, 09:11 AM

Side note: I don't know if it the new CMS or perhaps my lamp has just settled in but, it took me all of 5 minutes to get a flat grayscale with dEs of 3 or less yesterday.

Great to hear. What % level were you measuring down to? For example flat from 30-100, or were you measuring lower, say down to 5 or 10%?

In my experience calibrating a few RS20s it was mandatory to use the custom gamma control )in addition to the normal gain/offset settings) in order to get the grayscale <=3 across the entire 5-100% range. IIRC the trouble spots in particular were 5, 10, and 25% in particular.

Certainly if we can now get from 5-100% without messing with the custom gamma that would be terrific. I say this because it takes me a good 2-3 hours of frustrating tweaks (going around in circles) to get the custom gamma dialed in for flat grayscale adjustments. That being said, I'm at least glad this adjustment is available!

Lawguy

04-30-09, 09:17 AM

Great to hear. What % level were you measuring down to? For example flat from 30-100, or were you measuring lower, say down to 5 or 10%?

This was from 30-100. I presume that my i1LT is not accurate below that.

Manni01

04-30-09, 09:21 AM

This was from 30-100. I presume that my i1LT is not accurate below that.

The LT is accurate below that as long as it is trained to a more color accurate meter, otherwise it's not repeatable (in my experience).

I get best gamut precision with the i1pro, and best greyscale precision, especially below 30IRE, with the LT trained to the i1Pro. And excellent repeatablity, while using the d2 on its own would give a different reading after a day or even a few hours (nothing else changing, including meter position).

Manni01

04-30-09, 09:23 AM

I am puzzled by this statement. If tracking is now good, it should not matter what stimulus level you calibrate at. For example, if you properly calibrate at 100%, things will look perfect at that stimulus level. Also, if results track properly, that 100% stimulus calibration should track properly at 75%. Are you suggesting that tracking is good only if you calibrate at 75%?

No, this is no what I was suggesting.

I am just saying that in order to calibrate to rec709 at 100% stim, I needed much more action on the controls than calibrating at 75% stim.

Both calibrations track very well, but the calibration at 75% gave better results visually, I suppose because less action on the controls (especially hue) was needed and because it matters more for most content to be spot on at 75% than at 100%.

This is why I'm interested to follow JeffY's advice and try to see if I can cut changes in hue even more in my calibration.

Lawguy

04-30-09, 09:48 AM

No, this is no what I was suggesting.

I am just saying that in order to calibrate to rec709 at 100% stim, I needed much more action on the controls than calibrating at 75% stim.

Both calibrations track very well, but the calibration at 75% gave better results visually, I suppose because less action on the controls (especially hue) was needed and because it matters more for most content to be spot on at 75% than at 100%.

This is why I'm interested to follow JeffY's advice and try to see if I can cut changes in hue even more in my calibration.

I am dense and still don't understand. :confused:

If you calibrate properly at 75%, the settings you arrive at would also work properly at 100%,assuming things track as they should. Therefore, I could just as easily as arrived at those settings if I had calibrated at 100%. Is this not true?

I am not sure why there should be any visual difference at all if things measure properly at both levels.

Manni01

04-30-09, 09:52 AM

I am dense and still don't understand. :confused:

If you calibrate properly at 75%, the settings you arrive at would also work properly at 100%,assuming things track as they should.

I am not sure why there should be any visual difference at all if things measure properly at both levels.

Try both and let us know.

Calibrate first using 75% patterns, save it in user1. Measure at 100%, check the tracking.

Calibrate using 100% patterns, save it in user2. Measure at 75%. Check the tracking.

I found that my settings were very different, and that I needed more hue to get 100% to rec709 than to get 75% to rec709. Both calibrations tracked very well, although the level I calibrated to was obviously closer to rec709 than the other level, for each calibration.

Then compare the two settings with real material, and let use know which calibration you prefer.

I found the 75% calibration much more pleasing.

But that may be my eyes, my meter, my PJ, my lamp, my patterns, my BD player, etc...

It's not necessarily true for everyone.

Lawguy

04-30-09, 10:02 AM

Try both and let us know.

I will try!

After you began your reply, I edited my last post to include what I think is the crucial part of it my question.

Here is that thought: If you measure your (superior) 75% calibration at 100% and it measures properly, what would have been the obstacle preventing you from arriving at your 75% numbers had you originally calibrated at 100%?

I am also very confused about how two things that measure similarly can look different.

I have had a thought, originating from our unsuccessful 1.0 CMS endeavors, that there are many ways to skin a cat but perhaps some are better than others. Here, there are many control combinations that may make green measure well, but some of those may have unintended consequences. I am thinking that it is not an issue of 100% versus 75%, but an issue of a good calibration versus one that isn't as good. I think (but can't be sure) that the best calibration is the one that uses the least amount of control adjustments.

Manni01

04-30-09, 10:07 AM

I will try!

After you began your reply, I edited my last post to include what I think is the crucial part of it my question.

Here is that thought: If you measure your (superior) 75% calibration at 100% and it measures properly, what would have been the obstacle preventing you from arriving at your 75% numbers had you originally calibrated at 100%?

I am also very confused about how two things that measure similarly can look different.

I have had a thought, originating from our unsuccessful 1.0 CMS endeavors, that there are many ways to skin a cat but perhaps some are better than others. Here, there are many control combinations that may make green measure well, but some of those may have unintended consequences. I am thinking that it is not an issue of 100% versus 75%, but an issue of a good calibration versus one that isn't as good. I think (but can't be sure) that the best calibration is the one that uses the least amount of control adjustments.

It measures properly at 100%, but it's still not as close as at the level used to calibrate.

I don't see why it's difficult to undertand that you need to use more hue to get the colors spot on at 100% than at 75%.

If you look at the numbers in my calibrations, the numbers track well, but they are not identical.

I completely agree that the best calibration is the one that uses the least controls, and this is why I prefered the one I did at 75%.

Now I'm very happy to say that the one I did at 100% was a bad calibration, and the one I did at 75% was better, and I'm just making deductions which are a load of bollock$.

But until we get more people who try both and comment, we won't find out.:)

Lawguy

04-30-09, 10:11 AM

I don't see why it's difficult to undertand that you need to use more hue to get the colors spot on at 100% than at 75%.

I had thought I made it clear in a prior post that I am dense.

millerwill

04-30-09, 10:17 AM

Manni. I finished installation of the new firmware late this evening and put in your settings into Custom1. Since I have no metering capability all I can do is to observe the images.

What I found is very interesting indeed:
First, the color of everything I have looked at tonight (many selected Film and TV HD segments used since about January 20th) for the first time are very close to those when using the THX mode. The key difference is similar to what you are reporting.....THX looks slightly less saturated.
There is a pronounced improvement in the behavior of green...gone is the excessive intensity of green colors.
The reds of blood, coke signs and the British telephone booths are much closer to reality.

Second--and I don't think much has been reported about this area... The color decoders are now almost perfect....for the first time. I test the Color decoders with the DVE disk (Color Bars) and the colored supplied filters as outlined by Joe Kane. None of the various "make do" settings we used in the past did well when you looked at the color decoder performance. Now the improvement is very clear and striking.
I would suggest this may be the easiest test to see if the settings you and others may find with instrumentation calibration can really be usefully applied across a wider set of projectors by others on these threads-- with reasonably good results.

Hats off to JVC.
And Manni--a special thanks for your settings.
If my findings are repeated by others..for those of us who currently have no metering capability .. here is a way to bring the color performance of the RS20 way up from we were -- just 1 week ago.

KT

I understand that all settings go back to their initial default values after loading in the new FW, but what about the mod many made in the Service Menu that changed the THX color temp to that in User 1? Is that maintained, or does it need to be re-done?

Manni01

04-30-09, 10:31 AM

JeffY

04-30-09, 10:31 AM

It needs to be redone.

Manni01

04-30-09, 10:32 AM

I had thought I made it clear in a prior post that I am dense.

No, I'm dense, that's why I can't see why it's difficult to understand this:D.

Manni01

04-30-09, 10:33 AM

It needs to be redone.

There is some echo in this room:D

JeffY

04-30-09, 10:44 AM

Hi Manni,

Here are your settings as measured by my Spyder3 on my projector.

Manni's settings Calman results (http://www.yerkess.com/Manni75.jpg)

Lawguy

04-30-09, 11:03 AM

JeffY has much less of a Y problem using Manni's numbers than I did. On the other hand, my xys using Manni's numbers look better than JeffY's.

Manni01

04-30-09, 11:03 AM

Thanks Jeff! Doesn't look too bad, I'll have a look at the numbers later, I can't just now.

Bulldogger

04-30-09, 11:15 AM

Good news, thanks for the feedback!

Let us know how you're tracking at 75% and 100% when you will have done your calibration.

I have not yet started. It seemed pointless until I could see what was going to happen with the CMS. Now I need to buy the equipment. Has anyone used the Chroma 5 to calibrate the RS20?

Lawguy

04-30-09, 11:23 AM

I have not yet started. It seemed pointless until I could see what was going to happen with the CMS. Now I need to buy the equipment. Has anyone used the Chroma 5 to calibrate the RS20?

I was thinking of getting one.

Highlander_AVS

04-30-09, 11:33 AM

.... I think (but can't be sure) that the best calibration is the one that uses the least amount of control adjustments.

+1 :cool:
This has been always my thoughts .... ;)
Then if this means that 75% will requires the least amount of control adjustments, I'll choose to calibrate with 75% Patterns ;) obviously checking that it tracks right at 100% too !! ;)

Mark Petersen

04-30-09, 12:03 PM

I have not yet started. It seemed pointless until I could see what was going to happen with the CMS. Now I need to buy the equipment. Has anyone used the Chroma 5 to calibrate the RS20?

That's what I use. It works well, even into the low IRE's.

Manni01

04-30-09, 12:04 PM

JeffY has much less of a Y problem using Manni's numbers than I did. On the other hand, my xys using Manni's numbers look better than JeffY's.

Yes, it doesn't look too bad, but the Y on blue seems really low. Do you have an idea why? It measures fine on my PJ, but about half the expected value on yours.

I've run the numbers from my last calibration into Greg's calculator, and I get very good results (see attached).

What I don't understand is why the dE given by HCFR is completely different at 75% and mostly similar (but not equal) at 100%. Any idea why?

JeffY

04-30-09, 12:08 PM

Here are my "my Spyder 3 is colour blind, I'll use my eyes instand settings"

R -4,-22,11
Y 5,-44,37
G -6,-42,35
C -2,-46, 37
B 6, -4, 3
M -2,-4,0

Manni01

04-30-09, 12:13 PM

Here are my "my Spyder 3 is colour blind, I'll use my eyes instand settings"

R -4,-22,11
Y 5,-44,37
G -6,-42,35
C -2,-46, 37
B 6, -4, 3
M -2,-4,0

That's really interesting!

Your settings are very close to mine, except for blue which is completely different!

I'll try to measure them on my PJ and show you what they turn out like.

The radiance is out of the chain, right?:D

JeffY

04-30-09, 12:33 PM

That's really interesting!

Your settings are very close to mine, except for blue which is completely different!

I'll try to measure them on my PJ and show you what they turn out like.

The radiance is out of the chain, right?:D

Radience? I wish!, only a lowly HDP Pro, but yes colour controls are switched off.

Manni01

04-30-09, 12:36 PM

Radience? I wish!, only a lowly HDP Pro, but yes colour controls are switched off.

Do you have any explanation for the difference with blue?

By eye, nothing seems wrong on my PJ, and as you can see with the results from Greg's calculator my dE are pretty good.

Do yo think there can be so much variation from a unit to another?

JeffY

04-30-09, 12:41 PM

It must be a projector variance, your blue settings are way too dark and a bit purple (especially dark blues) on my projector.

Manni01

04-30-09, 12:45 PM

It must be a projector variance, your blue settings are way too dark and a bit purple (especially dark blues) on my projector.

The hue may be bad calibration on my part as well (there are obviously many ways to move the color towards the target using hue and saturation), but I'm really surprised with the variation on Y, which is more straightforward.

Is this something you have experienced in the past (brightness on one color being so different from one PJ to another)?

Anyway I'll try your settings tonight if I can and I'll report.

Ignace

04-30-09, 01:54 PM

Hi guys,

I'm just new to this forum.
First of all, I want to thank everybody to make this new firmware reality!

I had a Barco projector before and switched to this new JVC a few weeks ago, because of it's good contrast, gamma response and mainly good "film-look" potential. Knowing the good colors of the Barco I was afraid to loose this aspect. Even though I saw too much saturated colors when I first saw the projector, but I believed/hoped it could be solved. Thanks JVC, for updating the CMS!

Personally I don't have any experience in calibration, but I do have experience with video processing since I work at Barco.

This week I played a bit with the "old" CMS without using any measuring devices, OK I used the RGB filters that cames with the DVE DVD, to have an idea about the luminance of the primaries and secondaries compared to white, and I was able to give the projector already a much better look (less saturated). I also noticed how easily green start to clip on a black to green ramp pattern. I also noticed that the brightest red and blue do have a hue shift, I hope this is gone with the new CMS?

This weekend I will try out the new firmware and I also took a Minolta CS-200 (from my work) to have a first impressions of what real color calibration is. I hope the CS-200 is a good reference for performing color calibrations? I also found the Excel spreadsheet helping the calibration process, thanks to the people involved creating this spreadsheet! This helps me a lot, since I didn't found yet the x,y coordinates for the secondaries.

I'll publish my experiences next week...

Kind regards,
Ignace.

Manni01

04-30-09, 02:06 PM

lovingdvd

04-30-09, 02:22 PM

Hi Manni - I suspect that the issue with blue Y you are seeing is possibly measurement error. Perhaps the blue is not bright enough for your meter to get a good reading off the screen. You are measuring off the screen I take it.

I *highly* recommend trying the RGB color filters that come with various calibration DVDs (DVE etc). You can use these with many patterns, but I prefer those on the AVS HD 709 disc.

What these patterns will do is provide you with a great way to check your Y levels without having to rely on a meter! And that seems like just what is needed at this point for you.

If you use the color filters you will KNOW immediately whether your Y values are correct, especially for blue. If the color filters show a mismatch, then I'd be 99% sure that your meter and calibration is wrong, and vice-versa. This will tell you definitively where things stand. Give it a try and let us know what you find. If you need a refresher on how to use these, let me know.

Manni01

04-30-09, 02:28 PM

decny

04-30-09, 02:29 PM

First, a huge thank you to everyone...even though I only understand about 1% of what is discussed here. I have been using the collective numbers from the old thread as my "calibration" and have been thrilled beyond my wildest dreams. I have just gone over the 100 hours on the bulb, so am wondering whether now is the time to bring someone in to calibrate officially. However, I've e-mailed some folks in the New York area (hour from NYC), but none have calibrated this model JVC. If anyone has a list of calibrators in NY, that would be helpful.

Second. When you install the upgrade, do the setting defaults go beyond just erasing your custom color settings? Will I have to reset EVERYTHING, including HDMI settings, screen position, projector mount preference (ceiling, etc.), etc.? Just wondering because I had the installers do all this and haven't done anything myself (except create a custom color setting with numbers posted on the old thread). Sorry, really new at this...but happy.

This forum is great and I look forward to participating on a more intelligent level in the future.

My Equipment

JVC DLA HD 750 Projector
Pioneer Elite VSX01 TXH Receiver
Pioneer BDP 51FD Blu-Ray
M1300 Draper Clarion 100" 16X9HD
12M Series #9 HDMI Cable
4300EX Replacement Power Conditioner
4 B&W DM303 Speakers
B&W ASW300 Sub
B&W LCR3 Center

lovingdvd

04-30-09, 02:39 PM

Thanks for this suggestion LDVD, I'll give it a try.

I and am sure others would love a refresher about how use these, especially given the fact that in my case, it would be a fresher, not a re-fresher:D

I have DVE basics and the filters, as well as the AVS 1.2 patterns, so please give instructions with whichever you think are better.

Thanks for this kind offer!

First - run, do not walk, to your color filters. I am excited about this for you. It will tell you definitively which (if any?) of your Y values are incorrect.

Its been a while since I used these and I've never really had a completely solid grasp on it, but I'll try to explain it at a very high level here. Then hopefully someone else can chime in...

Basically take your RGB filters from DVE but use the AVS HD 709 1.2 patterns. The patterns you want are the ones that look like vertical color bars with blinking color blocks in various places within and above the bars.

This is all from memory and may be rough but the general idea is this - start with the blue filter and hold it up to one eye while closing the other one. Look at the blue bar on the screen from your normal seating distance.

If the Y value is correct, then the blinking (white?) blocks should be virtually invisible and the bar should look solid blue while viewing through the filter. To give you an idea of what a WRONG Y setting looks like, take the Brightness for Blue and crank it up or down a lot on purpose just to watch what happens with the filter. The correct/ideal setting is the one where the white blends the most into the blue.

Then you can repeat this for red and green, switching filters accordingly (use red filter to view red bar, green filter to view green bar). I think the secondaries can be done too but would have to play with the pattern to recall how.

My understanding is that this technique is considered to be quite accurate and my recommendation, especially in your case where this is confusion over which if any meter to try, is to dial in Y based on the filter and forget about the meter for now.

Bottom line is that regardless of what your meter tells you, the setting can only be right if it looks right through the filters. I think this will be a VERY interesting experiment for you, as it will give you an idea of which of your meters is most accurate in this regard, as well as tell you where the correct setting is!

Keep us posted on what you find - I am very curious to hear the results.

Hopefully someone with more experience using these filters will chime in and provide more details on the technique as well, but this should get you started.

Lawguy

04-30-09, 02:45 PM

However, I've e-mailed some folks in the New York area (hour from NYC), but none have calibrated this model JVC. If anyone has a list of calibrators in NY, that would be helpful.

Where around NYC are you? If you are on Long Island (as I am) maybe I can help you out.

decny

04-30-09, 03:07 PM

I'm in Northern Westchester. Thanks!

Manni01

04-30-09, 03:31 PM

First - run, do not walk, to your color filters. I am excited about this for you. It will tell you definitively which (if any?) of your Y values are incorrect.

Thanks a lot for this Ric.

I did a quick test with DVE filters and the AVS 1.2 patterns.

Results are interesting: green and blue are fine Y wise, maybe one notch difference, but not much.

The only color which was slightly blinking was red, wich I moved from 3 to 6.

I didn't have time to check JeffY's settings but I will after tonight's movie.

Thanks again for your help, it puts my mind at rest!

lovingdvd

04-30-09, 03:44 PM

Results are interesting: green and blue are fine Y wise, maybe one notch difference, but not much.

Yep, that's par for the course if things are set up correctly.

The only color which was slightly blinking was red, wich I moved from 3 to 6.

If you feel like experimenting it would be interesting to see what your measurement is at 3 vs 6, just to compare. But I would tend to trust your eyes and the filter over the measurement.

Thanks again for your help, it puts my mind at rest!

You're very welcome! I would be curious to hear what the results are with the filters (whether they look correct) if you put in the CMS settings used with the suspected bad meter - just to see if they are more significantly off than what you saw with the filters when using the "good" meter.

stereomandan

04-30-09, 04:09 PM

I wish I had posted this as my first attempt, and hope you'll forgive me for the confusion, but hopefully this sets the record straight:o.

Note: the greyscale and saturation data is in the 3rd attempt HCFR file, as this was my main calibration. The 100% just shows what you get at 100% stimulus, and only the gamut info is relevant in this file.

Manni01,

I took a look at your calibration and the lower saturations look great. Thanks for measuring the 30 saturation windows. JVC certainly did a stellar job with the CMS on this attempt! You can really nail the calibraiton with this projector and know that you are getting the best picture possible.

Dan

karrih

04-30-09, 04:26 PM

It must be a projector variance, your blue settings are way too dark and a bit purple (especially dark blues) on my projector.

I also used Mannis settings for a while and about only weakness I noticed today was slightly unnatural sky color, much like you describe.

JeffY

04-30-09, 04:33 PM

I'm glad to see others use colour filters, I was starting to feel like an old fogey.

gregr

04-30-09, 04:33 PM

Guys,

You can't use color filters to adjust a CMS. The CMS is creating pseudo RGB primaries and complementary colors that are each made up of combinations of all three real primaries. i.e. pseudo-red = a * Red, + b * Green + c * Blue. If you look at psuedo-red through a Red filter, you only see the luminance produced by a * Red, and don't see the psuedo-red luminance contributions from Green and Blue. Similar for psuedo-Yellow you only see the Red component, not the pseudo-Red component in pseudo-Yellow. So there is no way with filters to see the pseudo-Red, pseudo-Green, or pseudo-Blue components of the pseudo-Colors. That sounds a little confusing, is it clear?

In addition to the above, when you adjust a 6-axis CMS the optimum relationship between the primary and complementary colors no longer form straight connecting lines passing through the reference white - unless you get a perfect match of all colors to the target color gamut. If you don't have a perfect match, i.e. the pseudo colors aren't exactly at the target colors, then the best accuracy will be achieved by minimizing the dE differences from the target of each color. So even if there were such a thing as perfect pseudo-filters (which there isn't) the filter method would still not produce optimum results. This is another way of saying that you are not trying to match the luminance (Y) values of the target, but rather the Y values (and x,y points) that minimize dE for each color relative to the target.

You can use my Display Calibration Calculator to compute the dE values, and/or to find the Y values for your measured x,y points that minimize the dE error for each color. Just put in your x,y values and your Y value and click Compute to get the dE value. Then vary the Y value (in the calculator) until you minimize the dE value, and use that Y value as your target.

JeffY

04-30-09, 04:36 PM

Manni01,

I took a look at your calibration and the lower saturations look great. Thanks for measuring the 30 saturation windows. JVC certainly did a stellar job with the CMS on this attempt! You can really nail the calibraiton with this projector and know that you are getting the best picture possible.

Dan

There is a big caveat, and it's that you need a precise colour meter. The cheap ones just aren't good enough.

JeffY

04-30-09, 04:40 PM

Guys,

You can't use color filters to adjust a CMS. The CMS is creating pseudo RGB primaries and complementary colors that are each made up of combinations of all three real primaries. i.e. pseudo-red = a * Red, + b * Green + c * Blue. If you look at psuedo-red through a Red filter, you only see the luminance produced by a * Red, and don't see the psuedo-red luminance contributions from Green and Blue. Similar for psuedo-Yellow you only see the Red component, not the pseudo-Red component in pseudo-Yellow. So there is no way with filters to see the pseudo-Red, pseudo-Green, or pseudo-Blue components of the pseudo-Colors. That sounds a little confusing, is it clear?

In addition to the above, when you adjust a 6-axis CMS the optimum relationship between the primary and complementary colors no longer form straight connecting lines passing through the reference white - unless you get a perfect match of all colors to the target color gamut. If you don't have a perfect match, i.e. the pseudo colors aren't exactly at the target colors, then the best accuracy will be achieved by minimizing the dE differences from the target of each color. So even if there were such a thing as perfect pseudo-filters (which there isn't) the filter method would still not produce optimum results. This is another way of saying, that you are not trying to match the luminance (Y) values of the target, but rather the Y values (and x,y points) that minimize dE for each color relative to the target.

I agree, but if you can get close with the saturation and hue then using the filters to dial in the brightness isn't a bad thing IMO. Unfortunately most of us are dealing with very dodgy colour meters so the filters are better than nothing.

lovingdvd

04-30-09, 05:06 PM

...In addition to the above, when you adjust a 6-axis CMS the optimum relationship between the primary and complementary colors no longer form straight connecting lines passing through the reference white - unless you get a perfect match of all colors to the target color gamut...

Thanks Greg. This brings up a related question that's been on my mind for months that I'm hoping you can answer please...

As you may have read in my prior posts, I purposely like to dial in a custom gamut that is a bit more over saturated than Rec 709. For instance I like Red a bit more deep/cherry than at its reference Rec 709 point.

When I input my xy for RGB they are purposely a bit more oversaturated than the normal Rec 709 coords. Therefore indeed I did notice two side affects of this - just like you are saying above: 1) the Y changes for all the colors from the reference level to your new calculated Y based on the xy coords, and 2) the target xy of the secondaries also changes accordingly. Therefore I know exactly what you mean about no longer drawing the line perfectly through the white point.

OK so this leads me to my question... When purposely over saturating my primaries, should I then use the calculator's new xy coords for the *secondaries* as well? I assume so. Obviously I should use the calculated Y instead of the reference Y in either case.

It's kinda strange - because in a way I want the over saturation of primary colors. Yet for some colors like yellow I'd prefer the color to look more like its Rec 709 spec (for example, so that banana still looks the right shade of yellow). I know this is a bit contradictory (because I want some colors to look as natural as possible while others to look a bit souped up).

So that makes me wonder whether it should be all or nothing - meaning that if I am going to slightly oversaturated the primaries than I really need to also use the NEW calculated xy for the secondaries too (and Y too of course). Or whether it can also look ok to mix these by using my over saturated primaries while still trying to keep the secondaries at their Rec 709 coords. Thanks!

gregr

04-30-09, 05:40 PM

Thanks Greg. This brings up a related question that's been on my mind for months that I'm hoping you can answer please...

As you may have read in my prior posts, I purposely like to dial in a custom gamut that is a bit more over saturated than Rec 709. For instance I like Red a bit more deep/cherry than at its reference Rec 709 point.

When I input my xy for RGB they are purposely a bit more oversaturated than the normal Rec 709 coords. Therefore indeed I did notice two side affects of this - just like you are saying above: 1) the Y changes for all the colors from the reference level to your new calculated Y based on the xy coords, and 2) the target xy of the secondaries also changes accordingly. Therefore I know exactly what you mean about no longer drawing the line perfectly through the white point.

OK so this leads me to my question... When purposely over saturating my primaries, should I then use the calculator's new xy coords for the *secondaries* as well? I assume so. Obviously I should use the calculated Y instead of the reference Y in either case.

It's kinda strange - because in a way I want the over saturation of primary colors. Yet for some colors like yellow I'd prefer the color to look more like its Rec 709 spec (for example, so that banana still looks the right shade of yellow). I know this is a bit contradictory (because I want some colors to look as natural as possible while others to look a bit souped up).

So that makes me wonder whether it should be all or nothing - meaning that if I am going to slightly oversaturated the primaries than I really need to also use the NEW calculated xy for the secondaries too (and Y too of course). Or whether it can also look ok to mix these by using my over saturated primaries while still trying to keep the secondaries at their Rec 709 coords. Thanks!If you want to use a primary or complementary that is different from your (otherwise) standard target, i.e. if you want Rec 709 except for a more saturated red, or perhaps you want all of the primaries a little more saturated, then you are on your own when adjusting a CMS. There is no reason to then expect a particular relationship between the x,y points and their Y values to somehow be better than some other relationship. i.e. you have purposely deviated from a one-to-one color mapping between the source and display, so there is no way to then say what the "best" choice will now be for x,y and Y values except what looks good to you. You changed the x,y points because they looked better to you, so pick the Y values that also look best you too.

What some people seem to find confusing about the Display Calibration Calculator is that they don't realize it is simply a tool to make certain types of calculations when those calculations are relevant to your objective. If you are not targeting a standard colorimetry with a CMS, then the xyY relationships between the primary and complementary colors no longer have any physical or perceptual relevance. You basically decided to do what looks good to you so you are on your own. Practically speaking however, you may want to adjust to a standard as close as possible first, and then make minor subjective changes that please you after that, rather than simply making totally arbitrary adjustments from the start. The former is much more likely to yield more pleasant results.

So why does the calculator allow you to enter custom RGB targets, or to copy your measured RGB values to the target section?? That is apparently what confuses some people. The reason is so that you can adjust the YCbCr to RGB color decoding, NOT a CMS (or in the rare case that you have video sources based on a Standard other than Rec. 601 or SMPTE C). The Color decoding should be adjusted to the standards before adjusting a CMS. I think it is best to make sure the video signals are being converted to the correct RGB values, even if you are then going to dial in some non-standard CMS settings. The reason for that is because unless the Color Decoding is standard it can produce various non-linear effects that can degrade any CMS adjustment (even a "subjectively custom" one), and you will know what an accurately adjusted CMS would have looked like (even if you still want to modify it later).

Manni01

04-30-09, 05:45 PM

Ignace

04-30-09, 06:00 PM

Hi,

I have some more questions, maybe they are not all related to the DLA-RS20, but at least it is my intention to put the JVC at its best performance...

- Since I currently don't own (yet) a Blu-Ray player I want to perform a temporary calibration for SDTV, being the 601 standard. I know that the primary colors are almost equal (only x for green is 0.29 instead of 0.30), but what luminance values I have to use for the primaries and the secondaries? Keeping in mind that today my DVD player is performing the YUV to RGB conversion and sending it over through DVI to the JVC.

- I'm using the "standard" range on the DVI (RGB colorspace); being 16-235. However I noticed that the JVC is clipping on specular highlights on the demo footage on the DVE DVD, as well as on the graybars (the white only). Since I don't want to use DVI in "enhanced" mode (0-246), because of contouring artifacts, I put the JVC in enhanced mode and adjusted the brightness to -7 to get black (16) to real black (not seing blacker-then-black) and the contrast to +11 to get "highlight" white (a bit higher then 235 I assume) at white of the JVC. Why? Because it looked to me that the JVC throws away everything higher then 235, even if you lower the contrast. Did other people notice similar behaviour?

- Are the full screen primary and secondary color test patterns on the DVE DVD 100% saturated?

- What are the most recommended DVD and eventually Blu-Ray disks for performing calibrations? Where can they be ordered?

- Is the gamma calibrations performed using the standard menu system, or did some people use service (factory) menu's?

- Is there an inherent difference between profiles Cinema2, Natural and User1-3? If yes, what is the preferred profile for performing a calibration on?

- What gamma setting is recommended for wathing movies; gamma "B" or gamma "Normal" or another one? Or is it recommended to create a user one? I read somewhere that B is very close to gamma 2.2?

Hope to get some reactions on these...

Thanks in advance!

Ignace.

Manni01

04-30-09, 06:02 PM

Here are my "my Spyder 3 is colour blind, I'll use my eyes instand settings"

R -4,-22,11
Y 5,-44,37
G -6,-42,35
C -2,-46, 37
B 6, -4, 3
M -2,-4,0

I've tried your settings tonight, while watching Elisabeth (the movie, that's not my wife's name:)), and I did a few tests with Cars, Tropic Thunder and Wall-E.

The results are extremely similar to my settings, I wouldn't be able to tell them apart by eye, except for blue of course, which is brighter on yours, for example in the spaceship scenes in Wall-E (in the control room). I do not see a huge change in hue, but that may be due to my eyes or the material I screened.

When I recalibrate next week, I'll ty to keep a close eye on blue.

For now, I'll stick to my settings, which really look great on my PJ.

Manni01

04-30-09, 06:06 PM

I also used Mannis settings for a while and about only weakness I noticed today was slightly unnatural sky color, much like you describe.

Could you please tell us in which movie (with a precise timecode if possible)? I checked the sky in Tropic Thunder and Elisabeth and couldn't see anything weird, at least on my PJ.

It would be interesting to compare my settings and Jeff's on the scene where you felt the sky was unnatural.

Also I saw a difference in blue, but no real difference in cyan.

This being said, my eyes are about 10% of Jeff's when he closes his, so I wouldn't be surprised if I simply can't see it. I'm very sensitive to red and a bit less to green, but not that much to blue.

KTTV Images

04-30-09, 06:11 PM

First - run, do not walk, to your color filters. I am excited about this for you. It will tell you definitively which (if any?) of your Y values are incorrect.

Its been a while since I used these and I've never really had a completely solid grasp on it, but I'll try to explain it at a very high level here. Then hopefully someone else can chime in...

Basically take your RGB filters from DVE but use the AVS HD 709 1.2 patterns. The patterns you want are the ones that look like vertical color bars with blinking color blocks in various places within and above the bars.

This is all from memory and may be rough but the general idea is this - start with the blue filter and hold it up to one eye while closing the other one. Look at the blue bar on the screen from your normal seating distance.

If the Y value is correct, then the blinking (white?) blocks should be virtually invisible and the bar should look solid blue while viewing through the filter. To give you an idea of what a WRONG Y setting looks like, take the Brightness for Blue and crank it up or down a lot on purpose just to watch what happens with the filter. The correct/ideal setting is the one where the white blends the most into the blue.

Then you can repeat this for red and green, switching filters accordingly (use red filter to view red bar, green filter to view green bar). I think the secondaries can be done too but would have to play with the pattern to recall how.

My understanding is that this technique is considered to be quite accurate and my recommendation, especially in your case where this is confusion over which if any meter to try, is to dial in Y based on the filter and forget about the meter for now.

Bottom line is that regardless of what your meter tells you, the setting can only be right if it looks right through the filters. I think this will be a VERY interesting experiment for you, as it will give you an idea of which of your meters is most accurate in this regard, as well as tell you where the correct setting is!

Keep us posted on what you find - I am very curious to hear the results.

Hopefully someone with more experience using these filters will chime in and provide more details on the technique as well, but this should get you started.

LovingDVD,
I loaded in what Manni calls his third attempt settings when I reported how they looked on my projector.

You mention that DVE can be used for this Filter method.
I used the the DVE color filters approach with DVE color bars to look at the color decoder behaviors (for example all color bars containing blue should exactly match the white background when viewed through a blue filter--etc.) . Am I correct in assuming the filter method you are describing is essentially also looking at color decoder errors as you adjust by eye for the correct Y values.

If so, In trying out Manni's settings, I made a mistake in trimming the Main Color and Tint controls away from 0,0 while looking through the filters in an attempt to compensate for the color decoder errors. ( I have no meter and understand the color decoder is not part of the CMS, but I am having some success using these make-do methods).
What I apparently should have done is to correct the Y values of Blue, Red and Green with the CMS Y values as you describe instead of trimming the Main Color and Tint controls. Is that anywhere near correct?

Thanks
KT

Manni01

04-30-09, 06:12 PM

Guys,
You can use my Display Calibration Calculator to compute the dE values, and/or to find the Y values for your measured x,y points that minimize the dE error for each color. Just put in your x,y values and your Y value and click Compute to get the dE value. Then vary the Y value (in the calculator) until you minimize the dE value, and use that Y value as your target.

Greg, thanks a lot for this. I have put the results of my last clibration through your calculator (posted the results a few posts above), and found a difference between the dE you report and the dE reported by HCFR. More on some colors and some level of stimulus thaan others. Could you give us an explanation?

gregr

04-30-09, 07:54 PM

Greg, thanks a lot for this. I have put the results of my last clibration through your calculator (posted the results a few posts above), and found a difference between the dE you report and the dE reported by HCFR. More on some colors and some level of stimulus thaan others. Could you give us an explanation?There are several (way too many) different CIE color space models that produce different dE results (very different models, very different equations, very different scales i.e. dE=1 is the JND [just noticeable difference] in all systems, but dE=2 is barely noticeable in some systems and a large error in others). I use the CIE LUV 1976 color space/dE calculations in my reviews and for the calculator. It is (I think) the favorite of us "old video engineers" for some technical reasons and because we have developed a good feel for what a 3 dE or 6 dE error means over the years. Roughly speaking, 1 dE difference can barely be detected under careful comparison conditions, a 3 dE difference is barely noticeable in real video, a 6-7 dE difference is quite noticeable in real video, and 10 dE differences are really big (unacceptable) errors to a discerning viewer. These would be my estimates for highly saturated primary and complementary colors. When measuring grayscale we drop the luminance contribution to the error (and pick that up as a gamma error) so that the given dE variances (without luminance) are much more obvious. i.e. a 1 dE deviation is the JND, but a 2 dE deviation is obvious on a grayscale test pattern, a 3 dE deviation becomes quite noticeable on a B&W film, and a 4 dE deviation is too much for me.

Anyway, I don't know what color space HCFR is using for dE calculations. Most of the programs are probably using newer color spaces (that were developed at the insistence of the paint and textile industries rather than video engineers), because newer is always better, right? That is as much as you will get me to say or argue about dE. There are lots of things worth spending my time on, and that isn't one of them. But there is lots of discussion about this topic in other threads.

stereomandan

04-30-09, 08:00 PM

Greg,

HCFR uses the Luv 1976 dE's as well. The HCFR dE's are the same as the dE's I get calculating them with the CIE Luv method.

The CIE94 and CIELAB dE's don't match HCFR in my experience.

Dan

gregr

04-30-09, 08:25 PM

Greg,

HCFR uses the Luv 1976 dE's as well. The HCFR dE's are the same as the dE's I get calculating them with the CIE Luv method.

The CIE94 and CIELAB dE's don't match HCFR in my experience.

DanThen I don't know why Manni01 got different results. My calculator has been up for months and compared against other CIELUV programs so I don't think there are any errors, other than possible negligible differences that can occur from using different precision arithmetic.

lovingdvd

04-30-09, 09:09 PM

LovingDVD,
I loaded in what Manni calls his third attempt settings when I reported how they looked on my projector.

You mention that DVE can be used for this Filter method.
I used the the DVE color filters approach with DVE color bars to look at the color decoder behaviors (for example all color bars containing blue should exactly match the white background when viewed through a blue filter--etc.) . Am I correct in assuming the filter method you are describing is essentially also looking at color decoder errors as you adjust by eye for the correct Y values.

If so, In trying out Manni's settings, I made a mistake in trimming the Main Color and Tint controls away from 0,0 while looking through the filters in an attempt to compensate for the color decoder errors. ( I have no meter and understand the color decoder is not part of the CMS, but I am having some success using these make-do methods).
What I apparently should have done is to correct the Y values of Blue, Red and Green with the CMS Y values as you describe instead of trimming the Main Color and Tint controls. Is that anywhere near correct?

Thanks
KT

Well I'm not so sure since Greg was saying it is incorrect to use this method for Brightness adjustment within a CMS, and I think I understand why based on his explanation. However I believe it is valid for checking/correcting the color decoder. I'll leave it to someone else to answer your questions since I am not sure.

lovingdvd

04-30-09, 09:13 PM

If you want to use a primary or complementary that is different from your (otherwise) standard target, i.e. if you want Rec 709 except for a more saturated red, or perhaps you want all of the primaries a little more saturated, then you are on your own when adjusting a CMS. There is no reason to then expect a particular relationship between the x,y points and their Y values to somehow be better than some other relationship. i.e. you have purposely deviated from a one-to-one color mapping between the source and display, so there is no way to then say what the "best" choice will now be for x,y and Y values except what looks good to you. You changed the x,y points because they looked better to you, so pick the Y values that also look best you too.

What some people seem to find confusing about the Display Calibration Calculator is that they don't realize it is simply a tool to make certain types of calculations when those calculations are relevant to your objective. If you are not targeting a standard colorimetry with a CMS, then the xyY relationships between the primary and complementary colors no longer have any physical or perceptual relevance. You basically decided to do what looks good to you so you are on your own. Practically speaking however, you may want to adjust to a standard as close as possible first, and then make minor subjective changes that please you after that, rather than simply making totally arbitrary adjustments from the start. The former is much more likely to yield more pleasant results.

So why does the calculator allow you to enter custom RGB targets, or to copy your measured RGB values to the target section?? That is apparently what confuses some people. The reason is so that you can adjust the YCbCr to RGB color decoding, NOT a CMS (or in the rare case that you have video sources based on a Standard other than Rec. 601 or SMPTE C). The Color decoding should be adjusted to the standards before adjusting a CMS. I think it is best to make sure the video signals are being converted to the correct RGB values, even if you are then going to dial in some non-standard CMS settings. The reason for that is because unless the Color Decoding is standard it can produce various non-linear effects that can degrade any CMS adjustment (even a "subjectively custom" one), and you will know what an accurately adjusted CMS would have looked like (even if you still want to modify it later).

Thanks Greg. I think I understand. Essentially you are saying there is really no correct Y value for a custom gamut since there is no reference and one is basically doing whatever they want anyway, so at that point who is to say what Y should be. Is that the gist of it?

I was thinking that a given brightness (Y) of a color, however, would have a technically correct, derivable value. Not because of the shade/coloring of a value, but because it could be too bright or too dark relative to the other colors. No?

mark haflich

04-30-09, 09:47 PM

Ric. Aren`t the L values artificial in that they are specified by a formula in the standard for the primary values specified in the standard ts only right with respect to meeting the standard. If you reduce the value without making any changes to the sauturation or hue, the color will appear darker. But the only right is the artificial right set in the standard.

stereomandan

04-30-09, 10:14 PM

TomHuffman

05-01-09, 12:02 AM

Greg, I'll try to look into this tomorrow. I highly doubt your calculations are wrong. We'll get it sorted out.The discrepancies are very small.

The source is the fact that HCFR rounds its numbers to 3 decimals for display, but it uses the unseen extra digits in the dE calculation. When I used four digits I got exactly the same results. If you typed the 4-digit values into Greg's app, I'll bet you would get the same values as well.

karrih

05-01-09, 12:31 AM

Could you please tell us in which movie (with a precise timecode if possible)? I checked the sky in Tropic Thunder and Elisabeth and couldn't see anything weird, at least on my PJ.

It would be interesting to compare my settings and Jeff's on the scene where you felt the sky was unnatural.

It was some silly travel program from cable and I don't have it any more. I guess it was shot with video equipment instead of film. Nevertheless, I guess I could try to check out my Blurays for this.

gregr

05-01-09, 01:26 AM

Thanks Greg. I think I understand. Essentially you are saying there is really no correct Y value for a custom gamut since there is no reference and one is basically doing whatever they want anyway, so at that point who is to say what Y should be. Is that the gist of it?Yep, that's a lot more concise than I said it. :)

I was thinking that a given brightness (Y) of a color, however, would have a technically correct, derivable value. Not because of the shade/coloring of a value, but because it could be too bright or too dark relative to the other colors. No?I'm sure you would find values that you didn't like because they seem too bright or too dark to you, but there is no "technically right" value since you went on your own with a subjective x,y value. Remember that it's the total combination of the x,y point and its brightness that combine to produce a perceived color. So if you could imagine a particular (non-standard) color that you wanted you could get equally close to it (same dE) by choosing a variety of x,y and Y combinations. But there is no calculation that can know what xyY color you really want, and hence no way to calculate a Y value for your x,y point.

gregr

05-01-09, 01:45 AM

However I believe it [filters] is valid for checking/correcting the color decoder.Yes, color filters can be used for adjusting the color decoder, IF you use the projector's native primaries since in that case the luminance (Y) of the primary, complementary, and reference white colors are all strictly related, i.e. Y(White) = Y(R) + Y(G) + Y(B), Y(Yellow) = Y(R) + Y(G), Y(Magenta) = Y(R) + Y(B), and Y(Cyan) = Y(G) + Y(B), when the magnitude of the RGB signals is R = G = B. The color filters visually verify that R = G = B if you input RGB color bar signals. So when you instead input YCbCr encoded color bar signals, the filters allow you to verify that the YCbCr signals are correctly decoded back to RGB signals where R = G = B.

Manni01

05-01-09, 06:02 AM

Then I don't know why Manni01 got different results. My calculator has been up for months and compared against other CIELUV programs so I don't think there are any errors, other than possible negligible differences that can occur from using different precision arithmetic.

Thanks for the explanation Greg. I couldn't find which formula the calculator or HCFR was using. Thanks to Tom for the comments and to Dan for the confirmation that HCFR uses the same formula.

Tom was right, is is primirily due to the rounding that HCFR does in displaying the information. I cut the data from HCFR and pasted it to Excel, and then to your calculator with 5 digits precision (I couldn't do it directly). The differences are gone for the primaries, but the secondaries still show a small difference.

This is probably negligeable in regard to how it can influence a calibration, I was just curious to understand why it wasn't identical given the fact it should use the same formula, and why it should affect the secondaries and not the primaries.

I attach the full numbers below.

stereomandan

05-01-09, 07:53 AM

The discrepancies are very small.

The source is the fact that HCFR rounds its numbers to 3 decimals for display, but it uses the unseen extra digits in the dE calculation. When I used four digits I got exactly the same results. If you typed the 4-digit values into Greg's app, I'll bet you would get the same values as well.

Thanks for figuring that out Tom, and for your input.

Dan

Manni01

05-01-09, 08:41 AM

Thanks for figuring that out Tom, and for your input.

Dan

So Dan, you would say the small differences in secondaries (up to 5%) and not in primaries (identical) even with 5 digits accuracy (see post above your last) are normal?

stereomandan

05-01-09, 12:44 PM

So Dan, you would say the small differences in secondaries (up to 5%) and not in primaries (identical) even with 5 digits accuracy (see post above your last) are normal?

Well, the way that you are looking at the error (up to 5%) makes it sound worse than what your eyes are able to notice.

Yes, there is a 5% error from one dE calculation to the other, but the overall difference in dE is only 0.2 at worst case from one calculation to the next. A dE of 1 is barely noticeable under the most scutinous viewing, so a dE of 0.2 will not be noticeable in the least. Hope that helps.

Dan

TomHuffman

05-01-09, 01:24 PM

Here's an open spreadsheet that calculates CIELUV and makes the math explicit.

KTTV Images

05-01-09, 02:43 PM

I understand that all settings go back to their initial default values after loading in the new FW, but what about the mod many made in the Service Menu that changed the THX color temp to that in User 1? Is that maintained, or does it need to be re-done?

Feedback on THX Trick:
Guys, I know this report is late --but last night I also found that the THX Color temperature trick does need to be redone (set to my Jason's calibrated Custom 1 setting).

However, with my bulb at 470 hours, I now find the Color Temperature for Jason's original low power mode has visibly drifted toward green, and at high power it has drifted toward red. I also have measured a 1 stop loss, (50% loss in brightness) due to bulb aging to this point, so I now need to run at high power.

From previous comments it looks like this is all consistent/normal with what others are finding. Does this sound correct?

KT

Manni01

05-01-09, 03:02 PM

Here's an open spreadsheet that calculates CIELUV and makes the math explicit.

Thanks very much Tom, I'll use this for my next calibration.

I've spent most of the afternoon installing the new material for my screen (Seymour AV XD Center Stage) and moving my speakers behind it, and I hope to be able to calibrate tonight.

Manni01

05-01-09, 03:03 PM

Well, the way that you are looking at the error (up to 5%) makes it sound worse than what your eyes are able to notice.

Yes, there is a 5% error from one dE calculation to the other, but the overall difference in dE is only 0.2 at worst case from one calculation to the next. A dE of 1 is barely noticeable under the most scutinous viewing, so a dE of 0.2 will not be noticeable in the least. Hope that helps.

Dan

Thanks Dan, that's what I thought.

netroamer

05-01-09, 03:50 PM

I am a proud owner and really love my Sony G90 CRT projector used in a 1080p mode. It looks great on a 100" Stewart screen even with 10k+ hrs on the tubes. However, my wife and I are getting tired of looking at a Volkswagon hanging in the rafters. I've read a lot on the forums and everyone raves about the RS20/HD750, but my question is will it be a step up, down, or lateral from the G90.

The LCD sets we have purchased, including high end Sony Bravia to Vizio all look "digital" at some point and handle motion poorly.

I have all the set-up toys to do the job, I just don't want to feel as I have taken a step down.

Comments, please.

John

Mike_WI

05-01-09, 04:07 PM

chadly25

05-01-09, 04:28 PM

Even though this is the wrong thread to have posted that in, the G90 is still imo the king of projectors when all things are considered and we are just talking performance. I love my HD750 but it isn't as good as my buddies G90.

KTTV Images

05-01-09, 05:04 PM

It must be a projector variance, your blue settings are way too dark and a bit purple (especially dark blues) on my projector.

Guys,
For what it is worth---I have loaded in Manni's third attempt and Jeffy's new settings and compared them as objectively as I can by eye, to the THX CMS setup (I have no metering capability). I want to report my findings and have a question on the logic and validity of my conclusion that some of these settings look like they may be transferable to my projector with excellent results.

What I find is that that low saturation/lighter looking blues on Jeffy's settings match THX almost exactly, but Manni's are very clearly darker/or more saturated in appearance. Using THX as a reference, this is the only clear subjective difference I can see viewing many real world reference Video and Film segments I use for such judgments .

I also have been using 2 other objective ways to judge the color accuracy which may -or may not be valid:
1. First it seems to me that if the Color settings in the CMS are calibrated properly that the old standby filter method of setting the Color and Tint controls using the VDE BD disk should ideally yield Tint and Color control settings of exactly zero. Deviations here would indicate that the color CMS performance is not spot on (I am making the assumption that the Color Decoder in the RS20 is accurate). (I should note here that I found the THX mode unexpectedly required a color setting of 5 to satisfy this criteria. All comparisons below were made with this THX setting).

2. Secondly, after the Color and tint controls have been properly set, if Color filters are used with the VDE basics BD test disk to view the color bar pattern for testing color decoder errors.. then the R,G and B color decoders should look perfect (example... all of the primary and secondary colors and white viewed through the red filter should have the same red intensity).

Now I realize that many other criteria for excellent performance of the CMS setting exist ... but it seems to me that these 2 criteria above represent necessary but not sufficient conditions for a properly functioning CMS.
That said I found all of the CMS work around settings developed on the original Calibration site did not meet the 2 criteria above (even though they produced very reasonable -good looking images and helped us get through the "broken CMS era.) Since the CMS was defective this could be expected.

But now with the new version of the CMS firmware - and with simply copying in settings arrived at by Calibrations performed on projectors other than mine -I find that the CMS performance now unexpectedly comes extremely close to satisfying the above two "necessary" criteria.

Specifically, I found that Jeffy's new CMS settings produce almost perfect Color decoding while simultaneously satisfying the Color /Tint controls setting of 0. In other words Jeffy's settings seem to satisfy both of my Necessary conditions (and as discussed above - the less saturated blues match the THX blues perfectly).

I found Manni's 3rd attemt produces near perfect Color decoder behavior- but only if I set the Color control at +10 (Tint is fine at 0). And as mentioned above less saturated blues do not match the THX blues) So, at least on my projector, this case comes close to satisfying the 2 necessary conditions.

So my question is this.. do these results indicate a high probability that Jeffy's settings installed on my projector, results in a reasonable CMS setup?
If checked with, lets say, Jeffy's Calibration meter and software, would he end up with a pretty good Calibration report..or is it simply not the case that the 2 criteria I have set out are sufficient to allow drawing such a conclusion?

Thoughts on this would be appreciated.
And many thanks to Manni and Jeffy for contribution of their new settings.

KT