Hi guys,

I've been trying to research this on my own for some time, but the number of variables has caused me to reach out for expert help. Thanks in advance for reading.

I'm looking for a large display, most likely a 50" HDTV, that is suitable for hardcore gaming. I play games that are very timing and reaction dependent, so I want to have as little input lag as possible. I have a regular Xbox, but wouldn't be opposed to upgrading to the elite if it made more sense. I would like to also have the option to add a blu-ray player in the future.

My understanding is that if your TV doesn't display 720p natively, the scaling will cause the Xbox 360 games that are 720p to lag. So I guess I would need the TV to do both 720p and 1080p natively if i plan on adding a PS3 or blu ray at some point... is this true?

There is also a post-procession issue that can cause lag from what I've read. I'm reading that the best solution is to find a TV that doesn't do post-processsing on the VGA port, and then use the Xbox VGA connector to connect the TV for minimal lag. Is this accurate?

Does anybody know of a display that would be great for gaming in terms of input lag? Are there TVs that don't do any postprocessing at all and do 720pand 1080p natively?

Am I on the right track here? Any help would be much appreciated.

There is no such thing as a digital display that is both 720p and 1080p native. It's either one or the other. The pixels and lines are fixed.

Most quality displays give you the option of turning off all the post-processing mode, usually it's called "game mode" but most sets will allow you to manually disable all that stuff as well.

Honestly I think you are putting too much importance in display lag--99.9% of the time it's not going to be an issue.

There is no such thing as a digital display that is both 720p and 1080p native. It's either one or the other. The pixels and lines are fixed.

Most quality displays give you the option of turning off all the post-processing mode, usually it's called "game mode" but most sets will allow you to manually disable all that stuff as well.

Honestly I think you are putting too much importance in display lag--99.9% of the time it's not going to be an issue.

So what I should be looking to do is get an Xbox 360 Elite that can be connected 1080p with an HDMI cable and make sure that I can turn off the post-processing on the HDMI ports of the TV set for the optimal experience? The input lag really does matter to me, as I play fighting games competitively.

Will connecting through an HDMI cable and disabling post-processing on that port give me similar input lag to my current 50" CRT, or will there always be some input lag no matter what? I can live with 1/3 of a frame (6-8ms) lag but anything beyond that I would try to avoid.

One more thing... If I connect my Xbox 360 with an HDMI cable and the game displays in 720p, will I be creating input lag from the TV scaling the image to 720p?

Thanks very much for answering my newby questions.

Most digital TV's have input lag of 30ms or lower when you send a native resolution as an output and enable Game mode. I play a lot of Street Fighter IV and I play on a Sharp Aquos 52D85U. Lag test with cameras have shown it has around a 14ms input lag. You can find various threads on Samsung LCD's with around the same. I don't know of any that are lower.

That being said, I don't have any issues doing any kind of combo in SFIV or doing Just Frame moves in Soul Calibur IV.

Most digital TV's have input lag of 30ms or lower when you send a native resolution as an output and enable Game mode. I play a lot of Street Fighter IV and I play on a Sharp Aquos 52D85U. Lag test with cameras have shown it has around a 14ms input lag. You can find various threads on Samsung LCD's with around the same. I don't know of any that are lower.

That being said, I don't have any issues doing any kind of combo in SFIV or doing Just Frame moves in Soul Calibur IV.

I play SFIV too, but right now I'm playing on a CRT with 0 lag and I don't really want that to change. 30 ms of lag is HUGE, that's almost 2 frames! I'm not sure how hardcore of an SFIV player you are but 30 ms of lag is way more than I am willing to accept. 14ms sounds tolerable, but that is still almost a frame of lag.

FWIW, input lag wouldn't cause you difficulty doing combos... the timing of combos is in your fingers. Input lag causes you to have 1 frame slower reaction than you should when reacting to on screen stimulus. 1 frame slower makes it tougher to tech a throw (have to tech in the first 10 frames) or quickly block a crossup.

Sounds like you are hyper sensitive to lag, and would most likely have issues with any LCD or Plasma. my advice would be to do the research on the models with the lowest advertised response time, then buy it at a local place that will let you return it if you don't like it. Costco is great for that kind of stuff....

I believe they still use CRT displays for competitive fighting games, and they're not even that big from what I've seen.

-Ex

I am pretty sure the SF4 cab uses LCDs, as do most modern arcade games. All 3 or so of them! Though I don't know what type they are, or what the input lag is, or whatever.

Anyway. MrQuestions, you're not gonna find what you're looking for. Any affordable HDTV nowadays has 30ms+ of input lag. I don't know of any on the market with 8ms. It's simply not a priority when designing these sets and getting them to a cost effective price. You're gonna have to stick with your CRT, for now.

Input lag is completely overrated. From what I found (maybe it's just me), I can quickly compensate for input lag in virtually any display. I used to own a 120hz LCD that had noticable input lag if all the visual options were left on. I still rocked in COD4 or any FPS.

In any case, Turning on Game Mode on an LCD really helps with input lag, and if you can;t adjust yourself to the TV, you have issues. I can play SFIV just fine in my friends house, and he owns a 120hz LCD.

I am pretty sure the SF4 cab uses LCDs, as do most modern arcade games. All 3 or so of them! Though I don't know what type they are, or what the input lag is, or whatever.

Anyway. MrQuestions, you're not gonna find what you're looking for. Any affordable HDTV nowadays has 30ms+ of input lag. I don't know of any on the market with 8ms. It's simply not a priority when designing these sets and getting them to a cost effective price. You're gonna have to stick with your CRT, for now.

Thanks, that's what I'm going to do because I totally am and admit to being "hypersensative" about the input lag :). I'm going to stick with CRT for awhile and hold off on making a big investment in a large TV until they come out with something with less than a frame of input lag.

I did find some useful info concerning input lag though... apparently it's super hard to find a TELEVISION with less than a few frames of input lag, but if you get a large display intended for Digital Signage (no TV tuner) it will only have 4-8ms of input lag. I read that these types of screens are what the arcade machines use, not sure if that's true or not though.

Unfortunately a 42" Digital Signage screen is about $2100... not breaking the bank or anything but you're still paying about double the price just so the thing doesn't have input lag for video games, which seems silly.

Thanks to everyone for responding to my thread, your input is much appreciated.

You do realize the large amounts of people who play online everyday with said 'laggy' TV's, and have no issues with them, right? You're not Superman, the little bit of input lag is not going to destroy your 'skills' in SFIV no more than online lag will. Sorry, but that's an absurd reason not to jump onto a newer TV.

[QUOTE=Ripeer;16395555]give me similar input lag to my current 50" CRTQUOTE]


I'm cerious as to why you would consider ditching your 5o inch CRT for a "digital panel" in the first place?

You do realize the large amounts of people who play online everyday with said 'laggy' TV's, and have no issues with them, right? You're not Superman, the little bit of input lag is not going to destroy your 'skills' in SFIV no more than online lag will. Sorry, but that's an absurd reason not to jump onto a newer TV.

You do realize that large amounts of people are complete SF4 scrubs and really have no idea about the finer points on the game? I'm sorry but I could really care less that countless scrubs don't notice that their TV lags by a few frames or more because they've trained themselves to execute things earlier.

BTW, online lag destroys your SF4 skills pretty quickly when it rears it's ugly head. The netcode is pretty bad in that game, so if input lag effects you as much as online lag then input lag is probably affecting you quite a bit. Playing offline is much better -- maybe you don't notice because you're a casual gamer or play a character in which it doesn't matter as much -- but that doesn't mean that advanced players don't notice it.

It's nice that you don't notice any input lag with your TV, but I see no reason to "upgrade" to something that's going to be worse at doing what I use it for the most. I'd argue that dropping $1000-$2000 on something that's going to detract from my currently great gaming experience (50" 720p CRT), even if it's ever so slightly, would qualify as absurd.

I'm cerious as to why you would consider ditching your 5o inch CRT for a "digital panel" in the first place?

It takes up a lot of space and the screen has a glare that digital panels don't have... Also can't do 1080p.

Other than that it's pretty great.

You do realize that large amounts of people are complete SF4 scrubs and really have no idea about the finer points on the game? I'm sorry but I could really care less that countless scrubs don't notice that their TV lags by a few frames or more because they've trained themselves to execute things earlier.

BTW, online lag destroys your SF4 skills pretty quickly when it rears it's ugly head. The netcode is pretty bad in that game, so if input lag effects you as much as online lag then input lag is probably affecting you quite a bit. Playing offline is much better -- maybe you don't notice because you're a casual gamer or play a character in which it doesn't matter as much -- but that doesn't mean that advanced players don't notice it.

It's nice that you don't notice any input lag with your TV, but I see no reason to "upgrade" to something that's going to be worse at doing what I use it for the most. I'd argue that dropping $1000-$2000 on something that's going to detract from my currently great gaming experience (50" 720p CRT), even if it's ever so slightly, would qualify as absurd.

Uh, I DO notice. But I adjusted to it pretty quickly. I can pull of 1 frame attacks easily.

I'm not a casual. i'm a hardcore gamer, and as hardcore as I am, the least of my worries if the input lag. Worry about your skills more than the TV.

That, or enjoy your inferior display.

Uh, I DO notice. But I adjusted to it pretty quickly. I can pull of 1 frame attacks easily.

I'm not a casual. i'm a hardcore gamer, and as hardcore as I am, the least of my worries if the input lag. Worry about your skills more than the TV.

That, or enjoy your inferior display.

That's nice that you adjusted, however I do not want to adjust to a certain TV's input lag and then try to go play in the arcades and in tournaments on sets that don't lag.

I don't want the handicap of seeing the opponent trying to throw me 2 or 3 frames behind his actual movement, shortening my tech window. I don't want to have to predict to block a cross-up 2-3 frames ahead of time. Hitting a 1-frame link (if that's what you meant) would have nothing to do with your input lag because once you start the combo the timing is pretty much all muscle memory and the part that isn't you've trained yourself to execute on the laggy TV. The part that would affect you with input is quickly reacting to what your opponent does. Without a doubt it slows you down, and you can't possibly adjust to having less time to react. SF4 does have huge reversal windows that don't require very good timing... the "mash friendliness" of the game might help make the input lag less annoying I suppose.

I actually do prefer my "inferior" display that doesn't lag to a $1500 one that does for the purpose of playing video games...

What SF4 char do you play? I'm curious.

It's nice that you don't notice any input lag with your TV, but I see no reason to "upgrade" to something that's going to be worse at doing what I use it for the most. I'd argue that dropping $1000-$2000 on something that's going to detract from my currently great gaming experience (50" 720p CRT), even if it's ever so slightly, would qualify as absurd.

Interesting, I thought CRT HDTV's were 480/1080i:confused: If you're feeding it 720p it would have to do some scaling wouldn't it? I think that would introduce some unwanted lag also...

I have two Vizio 720P 50" plasmas. One is 4 years old.. the other is about 2.5 years old. I've ran my 360 on both hooked up via HD component & HDMI and NEVER experienced any type of input lag.

I dont know if lag is overrated, or if these plasmas are just not suceptible to it. But I have to say I am amazed at the number of newer tv's that have complaints about lag. If those complaints are even valid.. because alot of people blame things on technology when skill is really the problem. (not pointing fingers @ original poster).

FWIW.. Vizio sells the 720P 50" Plasma with free shipping for $899.

I think the 1080P version is $1199.

Great prices on great sets!!

Interesting, I thought CRT HDTV's were 480/1080i:confused: If you're feeding it 720p it would have to do some scaling wouldn't it? I think that would introduce some unwanted lag also...

Yeah, there's a whole lot of things that don't add up, but he doesn't claim to be an expert on HDTVs. What I want to know is, how much does a 50" CRT weigh??? I had a 32" CRT and that thing must have weighed about 200 lbs.

That's nice that you adjusted, however I do not want to adjust to a certain TV's input lag and then try to go play in the arcades and in tournaments on sets that don't lag.

I don't want the handicap of seeing the opponent trying to throw me 2 or 3 frames behind his actual movement, shortening my tech window. I don't want to have to predict to block a cross-up 2-3 frames ahead of time. Hitting a 1-frame link (if that's what you meant) would have nothing to do with your input lag because once you start the combo the timing is pretty much all muscle memory and the part that isn't you've trained yourself to execute on the laggy TV. The part that would affect you with input is quickly reacting to what your opponent does. Without a doubt it slows you down, and you can't possibly adjust to having less time to react. SF4 does have huge reversal windows that don't require very good timing... the "mash friendliness" of the game might help make the input lag less annoying I suppose.

I actually do prefer my "inferior" display that doesn't lag to a $1500 one that does for the purpose of playing video games...

What SF4 char do you play? I'm curious.

Obviously, the only solution is for the two of you to battle :rolleyes:

Ironically, one of the recent trends in the industry is 120 hz (and even more recently, 240 hz) displays. One might think that these units reduce input lag, but in actuality, they make it worse when their "frame interpolation" modes are active. This is because they buffer one or two frames in order to create the interpolated frame. One wants the raw frame up on the screen immediately, not to have it buffered and used with another frame to create a bunch of intermediate frames for "smoothness"!

My Sony A3000 is pretty nice in terms of minimal lag, but only after the "Cinemotion" and 120hz "MotionFlow" crap is turned off. Too bad they don't make SXRD/LCoS displays anymore, eh.

Use one of the larger pc monitors that are rated at 2ms - 6ms. Obviously this is not an ideal solution for an everyday multi-use display but if you are that serious about lag and want a flat panel of some sort for gaming I think it is the only way to go.

Jason

I play SFIV too, but right now I'm playing on a CRT with 0 lag and I don't really want that to change. 30 ms of lag is HUGE, that's almost 2 frames! I'm not sure how hardcore of an SFIV player you are but 30 ms of lag is way more than I am willing to accept. 14ms sounds tolerable, but that is still almost a frame of lag.
I'm a definite hardcore SF player. I'm by no means a pro, but I consider myself to be a good player (9800BP/12000+GP).

FWIW, input lag wouldn't cause you difficulty doing combos... the timing of combos is in your fingers. Input lag causes you to have 1 frame slower reaction than you should when reacting to on screen stimulus. 1 frame slower makes it tougher to tech a throw (have to tech in the first 10 frames) or quickly block a crossup.
You can adjust to combos, but input lag makes it a lot more difficult to do is a follow up attack to crossups and meaty attacks. What's harder to adjust to is tech throws and parrying in SFIII. I haven't had an issue with either. I used to play on a JVC HD-ILA (30ms) and when I upgraded to the Sharp, I immediately began to tech throw with more consistency, etc.

Use one of the larger pc monitors that are rated at 2ms - 6ms. Obviously this is not an ideal solution for an everyday multi-use display but if you are that serious about lag and want a flat panel of some sort for gaming I think it is the only way to go.
Isn't that figure the pixel response time? That isn't the same as input lag (video lag/video processing time).

Yeah, there's a whole lot of things that don't add up, but he doesn't claim to be an expert on HDTVs. What I want to know is, how much does a 50" CRT weigh??? I had a 32" CRT and that thing must have weighed about 200 lbs.

Haha yeah I most definitely am not an HDTV expert. I could be wrong about the 720p display -- I do think it does 720p but I could be completely wrong about that. Now I'm curious so I'll have to go find out. I don't even remember what brand it is (not in front of it right now) but it is definitely a heavy beast... I think it weighs about 250lbs but it might weigh even more... I know I've had to use a refrigerator dolly to move the stupid thing.

I did read, during my research, that Xbox360 scales the image according to it's settings before it outputs, so that may be why I don't have any lag right now. I'm quite sure that I don't have any lag right now because I've used the lag testing methods from Rock Band II and Guitar Hero: Aerosmith (there is a built in thing that detects input lag) and I come up with 0 ms in both tests.

I don't feel the need to beat Shin or anything to prove that zero lag > slight input lag... I'm happy that he's happy with his TV and I appreciate his response to my questions. I just know that I am an anal SOB when it comes to these things and I will not be happy with any input lag at all.

tokerblue,

Yes it is different but most PC monitors do very little in the way of processing the incoming signal (especially when sent their native resolution). So not only do you have less processing but also a faster response time ;).

Jason

What's harder to adjust to is tech throws and parrying in SFIII. I haven't had an issue with either. I used to play on a JVC HD-ILA (30ms) and when I upgraded to the Sharp, I immediately began to tech throw with more consistency, etc.

Yep, that's exactly what I'm concerned about. Crossups, focusing through stuff, tech throws... that's where input lag would affect you adversely and can't really be compensated for.

Who knows though, maybe with enough training you could train your brain to "see" 1 or 2 frames into the future. I'm actually only half joking with that too, the brain is pretty amazing.

Yep, that's exactly what I'm concerned about. Crossups, focusing through stuff, tech throws... that's where input lag would affect you adversely and can't really be compensated for.

Who knows though, maybe with enough training you could train your brain to "see" 1 or 2 frames into the future. I'm actually only half joking with that too, the brain is pretty amazing.
- With around 14ms, you shouldn't have any issues. 12800GP and counting... :)

how about a nice 19" CRT! no lag for sure but not HD! :)

I have the Samsung 50A450 720p plasma that I got for a killer deal at $736 and would easily recommend it to anyone looking for a deal (well, replace mine with the current B450 series). Very good color, decent blacks, and very fast response time make for a great gaming tv. I also have a 34" Panny CRT I used before and don't really notice much difference between the two. It's been the best purchase I've made in awhile. I'm very happy with it.

- With around 14ms, you shouldn't have any issues. 12800GP and counting... :)

Haha yeah... 14ms should be tolerable, slightly less than a frame...

I looked up my TV when I got home and its a Sony 51" CRT from '04 and yeah it doesn't do 720p, it's 1080i native. The beast weighs 172 pounds according to Sony.

I have two Vizio 720P 50" plasmas. One is 4 years old.. the other is about 2.5 years old. I've ran my 360 on both hooked up via HD component & HDMI and NEVER experienced any type of input lag.


It's not easy to notice unless you're playing a type of game that is susceptible to it. Most games are not, but two that are are fighters and rhythm games are. If you ran a test (basically you hook up your comp to a CRT and the TV, run a stopwatch program on the PC, then take a picture of them both - the clocks won't tell the same time) you'll likely see some lag.

Yeah, there's a whole lot of things that don't add up, but he doesn't claim to be an expert on HDTVs. What I want to know is, how much does a 50" CRT weigh??? I had a 32" CRT and that thing must have weighed about 200 lbs.

He didn't say it was a tube. old RPTVs are 3 tube CRT. Panasonic made a 50" that did 480p, 720p and 1080i.