I live in the Brighton, MI area, and am trying to spec out an OTA antenna solution. I would like to receive all Detroit stations and CBC at a minimum. It would be nice if I could also receive Lansing stations, but I think this would require another antenna since it is the opposite direction from Detroit.

My TV Fool map is here: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d7f14adfac49f3f

1. Is it true that Fox and NBC Detroit moving to VHF? OR are they broadcasting 2 channels (VHF and UHF)?

Detroit: WJBK-DT (Fox), WDIV-DT (NBC), WTVS-DT (PBS)
Lansing: WLAJ-DT (ABC)
PBS seems to be VHF only


2. Rough antenna specs and requirements:

One or more antennas ok (multiple preferred over rotator)
Using a DVR, so desire to have no rotator
UHF, VHF-Hi, FM, and HD Radio
Antenna desired to be placed in attic (above 2nd floor), tuner will be located in basement
Amplifier necessary due to long run?


3. Intended Use (UHF/VHF/FM)
I plan on using the TV antenna with an HD-5000 PCI card in a MythTV setup and the FM/HD antenna with an Onkyo TX-SR607. I would like to place the antenna in the attic (I have no chimney, roof is asphalt shingles and wood) and already have a coax run down to the basement where the DVR will site. Therefore, I would like to avoid a rotator at all costs. I would also like the ability to pull in FM radio and HD radio in the future. I am not sure if it is suggested to integrate this all into a single antenna and coaxial run or to seperate the antenna(s) and/or runs. I currently only have a single coax cable, and would like to avoid opening up the drywall again if possible.

4. Mounting Advice
I have browsed a bit on the forums, but have not found a best practice for mounting an antenna. Hanging better than pole mounted? Is it better to use wood than metal?

5. FM Reception
I am currently considering the Winegard HD 8200U and the Antennas Direct C4. Does the C4 support FM also? Is an FM trap suggested?

Any advice would be appreciated!

1. Is it true that Fox and NBC Detroit moving to VHF? OR are they broadcasting 2 channels (VHF and UHF)?

Detroit: WJBK-DT (Fox), WDIV-DT (NBC), WTVS-DT (PBS)
Lansing: WLAJ-DT (ABC)
PBS seems to be VHF only


Look at the second column ("real channel") of the TVFool post-transition digital chart. It shows all the above channels as being on UHF (channels 14-51) after the transition, except for WJBK (real 7, virtual 2.1). WILX in Flint will be on real 10, virtual 10.1.

It also shows, oddly enough, two entries for CBET in Windsor: real channels 9 and 35, both with virtual 35.1. I don't know what's up with that. I suspect that 9 is the final real channel, but both channels are in the table because Canada isn't subject to our 6/12 transition deadline.

If you really want both markets, you'll have to get two, and possibly three, antennas. If you want reliable reception from Lansing, etc., and CBET out of Windsor, the antennas will have to be installed above the roof. Those stations are a tad too weak for under-the-roof mounting at your location. An attic-mounted antenna may be suitable for receiving Detroit as long as it can be aimed at the stations and there wouldn't be any signal-blocking materials such as sheet-metal ducts, brick, stone, stucco or aluminum siding in the way.

Here's what I'd recommend:

* A Winegard HD-7694 antenna for the Detroit TV stations; it won't need amplification;

* A winegard HD-7698 antenna for the Lansing/Ann Arbor/etc. TV stations;

* A Winegard HDP-269 pre-amplifier to be mounted just below the 7698 antenna; this component may be regarded as optional -- it may not be necessary, but my hunch is that you'll need it to get all those stations reliably;

* An A/B coax switch for selecting the input antenna at the entertainment center; remote-controlled models are available for ~ $35 and up, manually-operated ones cost maybe $10 or so;

* An AntennaCraft FM-6 antenna on a separate coax downlead to the FM receiver/HD radio;

I.e., you'll need three downleads to the entertainment center. Combining two antennas on one coax is rather likely to cause the loss of many of the TV stations you want from the west and could put a big dent in FM/HD reception, all thanks to multipath interference.

The HD-8200U would be a fine choice for FM and TV from one direction, but given what you have for equipment and the stations you wish to watch, a separate FM antenna is probably a good idea. Forget all about the C4: It's a UHF-only antenna, and you have VHF-high stations in both directions (2 and 9 from Detroit/Windsor, 10 from Onondaga). It has a built-in balun which blocks reception of channels 2-13 and FM signals. Besides, the 8200 and the 7698 (which is really an 8200 with the bigger elements for channels 2-6 removed) both have better UHF gain than the C4 does.

For a comprehensive look at what's involved in antenna installations, take a look at this guide (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html). It gets technical at times, but it should provide most of the basic answers you seek. Good luck!

Look at the second column ("real channel") of the TVFool post-transition digital chart. It shows all the above channels as being on UHF (channels 14-51) after the transition, except for WJBK (real 7, virtual 2.1). WILX in Flint will be on real 10, virtual 10.1.

It also shows, oddly enough, two entries for CBET in Windsor: real channels 9 and 35, both with virtual 35.1. I don't know what's up with that. I suspect that 9 is the final real channel, but both channels are in the table because Canada isn't subject to our 6/12 transition deadline.

Thanks for the clarity. I parsed the data from antennaweb.org into a spreadsheet, which caused incorrect data for PBS and NBC. I did see the discrepancy with the TVFool data and it seems that TVFool is the more reliable source (Canada only has been displayed on TVFool).

If you really want both markets, you'll have to get two, and possibly three, antennas. If you want reliable reception from Lansing, etc., and CBET out of Windsor, the antennas will have to be installed above the roof. Those stations are a tad too weak for under-the-roof mounting at your location. An attic-mounted antenna may be suitable for receiving Detroit as long as it can be aimed at the stations and there wouldn't be any signal-blocking materials such as sheet-metal ducts, brick, stone, stucco or aluminum siding in the way.

Here's what I'd recommend:

* A Winegard HD-7694 antenna for the Detroit TV stations; it won't need amplification;

* A winegard HD-7698 antenna for the Lansing/Ann Arbor/etc. TV stations;

* A Winegard HDP-269 pre-amplifier to be mounted just below the 7698 antenna; this component may be regarded as optional -- it may not be necessary, but my hunch is that you'll need it to get all those stations reliably;

* An A/B coax switch for selecting the input antenna at the entertainment center; remote-controlled models are available for ~ $35 and up, manually-operated ones cost maybe $10 or so;

* An AntennaCraft FM-6 antenna on a separate coax downlead to the FM receiver/HD radio;

I.e., you'll need three downleads to the entertainment center. Combining two antennas on one coax is rather likely to cause the loss of many of the TV stations you want from the west and could put a big dent in FM/HD reception, all thanks to multipath interference.

The HD-8200U would be a fine choice for FM and TV from one direction, but given what you have for equipment and the stations you wish to watch, a separate FM antenna is probably a good idea. Forget all about the C4: It's a UHF-only antenna, and you have VHF-high stations in both directions (2 and 9 from Detroit/Windsor, 10 from Onondaga). It has a built-in balun which blocks reception of channels 2-13 and FM signals. Besides, the 8200 and the 7698 (which is really an 8200 with the bigger elements for channels 2-6 removed) both have better UHF gain than the C4 does.

For a comprehensive look at what's involved in antenna installations, take a look at this guide (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html). It gets technical at times, but it should provide most of the basic answers you seek. Good luck!

Thanks for the recommendations, it gives me a good idea of what is required for each direction. Due to the cost and complexity, I don't think the Lansing and Ann Arbor channels are worthwhile. Also, I am using a DVR to record shows, so manual antenna selection is not an option.

However, CBC is a must as I'm an avid hockey fan and I would really like to have clear radio reception (FM/HD) and Detroit digital channels.

So given this, I am thinking of purchasing the Winegard HD 8200U. I will attempt an attic installation with the existing run of cable and "try my luck". Only the antenna assembly will be required for this.

If this does not work, then I will have to purchase RG6 cable, antenna mounting equipment, a rotor, and accessories and attempt a roof mount. If it does come to this, how do you suggest mounting on a 2-story house that has vinyl siding and no chimney?

For an outdoor antenna, someone recommended two Antennas Direct DB8 into a Winegard CC7870 coupler fed into a Winegard AP8700 preamplifier. Would this pull in FM/HD radio/CBC?

Thanks for all the help!

Would this pull in FM/HD radio/CBC?

No. You still haven't added an FM antenna. The FM broadcast frequencies lie immediately adjacent to (up in frequency) VHF channel 6. The DB8 is not intended for this frequency band.

An antenna that includes VHF-low coverage will usually include FM coverage unless it has FM trap stubs. The 8200 will cover this set of frequencies as already suggested. You could also add a dedicated FM antenna as also suggested.

The HD-8200, W-G's top-of-the-line antenna, is the ideal single-antenna solution for what you'd like to do. It won't need an amp at all to pick up Detroit, even while mounted in the attic and feeding signals to a TV, DVR/DVDR and an FM receiver. Hope you have a big attic, because the antenna is 9 feet wide and nearly 15 feet long.

Here's an additional component you may wish to consider: A Winegard CA-8800 FM separator. This $15 device is similar to a splitter, but with much lower signal loss. Mounted at or near the entertainment center, it reduces potential for FM interference at the TV by stripping out radio-station signals and sending them to an audio receiver instead. I use one now, and it's a great little device IMHO. The 8200 is powerful enough, though, that you can use a 2:1 splitter instead if you wish.

Most antenna mounts are attached to the building in one of two ways: By a tripod mount at the peak of the roof, or a wall/eave mount at one side of the house. Either way, the mount must be attached to structural members (i.e., stud ribs) underneath the roof deck or sheathing. Frequently, cross-braces attached to rafters or studs need to be added. It's tough to recommend one over the other without seeing the house: It's a decision you'll have to make based on your own preferences.

Another way of mounting an antenna is to use a chimney strap. If you have a chimney this is an excellent way of mounting an antenna. It is easy and it is very robust structurally. I did this for my Winegard 8200.

Rick R

Here's an additional component you may wish to consider: A Winegard CA-8800 FM separator. This $15 device is similar to a splitter, but with much lower signal loss. Mounted at or near the entertainment center, it reduces potential for FM interference at the TV by stripping out radio-station signals and sending them to an audio receiver instead. I use one now, and it's a great little device IMHO. The 8200 is powerful enough, though, that you can use a 2:1 splitter instead if you wish.

Excellent tip on the CA-8800 FM separator, that will work perfectly with my setup.

Another way of mounting an antenna is to use a chimney strap. If you have a chimney this is an excellent way of mounting an antenna. It is easy and it is very robust structurally. I did this for my Winegard 8200.

I don't have a chimney! I am trying to avoid an eyesore. The heavy-duty tripod mount with guy wires will have an extremely low WAF.

Thanks for the advice so far, I'll post some results back here after I get the attic antenna setup.

I'm a little down in a hole myself and went with the Winegard HD 7084p for my main antenna, pointed at the direction with the most channels. I used a Winegard PR-9022 to point at two sidechannels. I was able to successfully combine them by making sure the coax to the combiner was of identical length to avoid multipath. I amped the big antenna and used a combiner that was power passive on the 1 side (yeat another Winegard product)

I must keep it on the roof, mostly because I have aluminum siding. I am telling you, the siding is the bane of my existence. If you have metal siding, an attic mount may not work out.

All the best,

tpintsch